Rebuilding: Where Will The A's Find Greatness?
by Nico on May 23, 2009 10:19 AM PDT
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PrintA wise philosopher once said: "Some people are born into greatness, some achieve greatness, and some have grape juice thrust upon them." This is problematic, as the stains from grape juice are especially difficult to get out of your clothes. But that's not really the point of this post.
The point is that if the A's are to build something special for the near future, they need a mix of good players and players that are more than good. I have liked Chase Headley as a possible trade target, because not only does he look like he has a future as a good player, he is currently blocked at 3B, he is on a team looking to make trades, and he could probably be had for less than a king's ransom. This is all well and good, but Headley also appears to be poised for a good career, not a great one. And this is fine if you flank him with a great player or two at some other position - but not so fine if you don't.
Case in point: Jason Bartlett fits in beautifully with Tampa Bay as a solid defensive SS and smart hitter who is no star but is reliable - not unlike Orlando Cabrera. The presence of Evan Longoria, who is great, allows the Rays' left side of the infield to be enviable overall. It works. Put Cabrera alongside Jack Hannahan or Bobby Crosby, however, and it doesn't work.
I think the A's rotation is in good shape long term because they have several pitchers (Braden, Outman, Gallagher, Gio) with a chance to be good but also have a couple (Cahill, Anderson) with a chance to be great. Among the position players, however, you look around and see that outside of Suzuki, who is making a strong case, your anchors are players who, like Headley, appear to top out at "good" - Travis Buck, Ryan Sweeney, Daric Barton. Those guys could be assets on a team with 1-2 better players, but if they're your best players you are in a whole lot of trouble.
Which brings me to today's question: Where (what position, what player) can the A's hope to find greatness in the next 2 years? From their own farm system, is it Corey Brown, CF? Is it Adrian Cardenas, or does he lack the defensive skills and/or power to be more than good? Does Doolittle have a chance to be "special," or just "solid"? Is Chris Carter a 40-HR 1Bman ready for the major leagues in 2010, or is he a 25-HR DH ready in 2011?
Or, in order to turn the corner as a rebuilt team do the A's need to make a trade for someone with high enough upside that it will really sting to give up what you have to give up to land a Mike Moustakas or an Alcides Escobar?
At what position can/should the A's not settle for "good," and from where will that star be found?
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What about the guys one "wave" of prospects behind the Carter/Cardenas/Browns of the organization?
From everything we’ve heard, Rashaun Dixon is an absolute freak and a legit 5 tool CF, not the kind Javier Herrera used to be.
Hell, the guy had more triples than doubles in his first taste of pro ball because he was so fast. That says somethin.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
I hold high hope for Dixon as well
but on the other hand he Ked in nearly 40% of his at bats. He might figure that out but its a huge warning sign.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 23, 2009 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Bartlett is absolutely a star this year.
He’s been the best shortstop in the AL by a wide margin, and one of the five most valuable players in the league. That said, he fits well with the theme of your post. Where can we find a player similarly poised to break out?
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Yeah, I mean on a career basis
Bartlett is one of those underrated players who you wouldn’t want to have 9 of in your lineup, but who complements other “star-level talent” players really, really well. Kind of like Hatteberg.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm not convinced the change isn't permanent.
He may be an example of a guy who’s “figured it out.” I’d love for the A’s to get one of those ahead of the curve.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
I'd certainly take him in a NY minute
And man was that a great trade for Tampa Bay!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Bartlett is also cool as shit.
My buddy at work with is Jesse Crain’s brother in law, so he knows Bartlett well from his time with the twins. Super, super cool guy and very easy to root for (when not playing us)
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
Bartlett is also a Sooner.
’nuff said
Interleague Play: Celebrating Thirteen Seasons of Suck
by GreenNGoldSooner on May 23, 2009 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions
it's so hard to envision which (if any)
of the top position player prospects might be “great” based on their minor league numbers. You’d think that someone who may have gotten that label (such as Barton) would have shown that in the majors. The fact that he didn’t might instead have indicated that he might instead be one of those “good” players that need to play with “great” ones in order to really be good at the major league level.
Some scouts have raved about Doolittle being a “special” player, but it’s hard to know that until we actually see him with the big club. (Not that I’m advocating bringing him up right now.)
Longoria was recognized as a special player, and was drafted as such. Another top prospect who was drafted very high (#5) is Buster Posey. As much as anyone can know, he seems likely to be one of those “special” players. The A’s to my knowledge have not drafted any “special” position players in quite a few years.
Another issue I’ve been thinking about lately is whether the A’s might try hiring additional scouts with special expertise in identifying really good position players who can hit. They do have that kind of expertise and success in identiying pitching prospects. I started thinking about that after reading a post by a Rangers fan who thought that the Rangers’ organization is very good at identifying and developing good hitters, but not at identifying and developing good pitchers – and the post specifically mentioned the A’s as an organization that was good at the latter.
"Minor league scout for minor league scout" trades are surprisingly rare.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I was thinking joke... guess I should've included the funny
I don’t know if you can hire a scout still under contract with another team. Almost no one stops their guy from going to another team when a promotion is involved.
The monster at the end of this blog.
What about scouting the next Alexi Ramirez?
Can that “more attention to overseas scouting” help us to get a major league ready SS/3Bman for Opening Day, 2010?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
It's not a question of hiring more scouts
The A’s have been spending more effort overseas, but that doesn’t mean they’ll like or have access to the players they see. A lot of scouting outside North America has to do with establishing a relationship with the players and their families. It’s a FA process remember, so liking a guy and recognizing his potential does not mean you’ll be able to deal with the kid without ponying up a ton of cash just to get in the door.
Remember, last year the A’s signed Inoa AFTER the Rangers offered a larger signing bonus because Oakland had established a relationship with the family. Your overseas scouts not only have to have the skill to identify the natural talent but the contacts to establish the relationships.
The monster at the end of this blog.
I'd like to see that kind of effort with position players
as well as pitchers, and with players who will participate in the draft (US, Canada, Puero Rico) as well as with those who don’t.
As would I
Still, always play to your strengths and having an abundance of cheap arms in the system can help a team in many ways.
The monster at the end of this blog.
According to BA we were in on Ramirez untill the very end
You also have to remember that there are very few players who can come over and make an impact by opening day next year. The player would almost certainly have to be Cuban or from Japan to make an impact by opening day. Other international prospects that have the ability to be above average players in the big leagues by next year are either A) already signed at 16 by another team or B) haven’t spent enough time against a high enough level of competition. Dayan Viciedo is a good example of the type of Cuban player that could come over, but even he has had to play in the minors. Ramirez was an exception because he was a Cuban defector after playing on the Cuban national team who was mature enough to come over almost immediately and play positional baseball. But in the last ten years can you think of another position player who has done that successfully in the big leagues? I cant. Japanese players have been able to do that but unless they are older free agents (who have had mixed success) they would need to be posted which if they are a potentially elite player could be prohibitive, due to the posting process.
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 23, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Totally a joke, based on past
“you don’t see prospect for prospect trades” comments.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I figured you guys saw it as a joke
I just didn’t think it was funny when I looked back on it.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Chase Headley is an extremely unlikely trade option
Yes, he’s playing out of position to accommodate Kouzmanoff but the Padres are hoping to trade Kouz and not pay him an arby dictated salary.
The monster at the end of this blog.
I just wonder if the Padres, right now, are ready to deal anyone
who can get them multiple good young prospects in return, as a “do over” effort.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Holliday/Ocab for Headley/Giles?
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
I know the A's LOVE Giles and tried to get him for years
But he’s not part of a rebuild – just another Holliday-type " you’re here to be good while we’re bad" pickup at this point.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I was thinking more in terms of taking salary back from SD.
Giles has a NTC anyway though, doesn’t he?
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
Yes he does
In play, run(s)! Talk dirty to me gamecast, talk dirty. - Nevermoor on FK
by designatedforassignment on May 23, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Doubtful in the case of Headley
You’re overlooking something very important here…
Kouzmanoff kinda sucks
The monster at the end of this blog.
Though he would have been a good pickup instead of Nomar
as a “platoon 3Bman” who actually stays healthy. And I’d sure rather have fallen back on him, instead of Crosby/Hannahan, upon Chavez breaking into little pieces.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yeah - hedging your bets on Chavez with Nomar?
Hmm…
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Juan Gonzalez, emergency 3B?
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
How's this for a silly idea...
Trade Holliday, lose a bunch of games so you end up with a 1st round draft pick in the single digits or thereabout, then go all out and sign Holliday as a FA.
There’s your star hitter to build a line-up around plus whatever players you acquired in the trade, all at a cost of a ton of money and your 2nd round pick!
The monster at the end of this blog.
It wouldn't cost our second round pick if we signed him.
Right?
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
It would if you first traded him and then signed him in the offseason
‘Cause I guarantee you that whatever team he’s playing for at the end of the year will offer him arbitration.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Oh yeah. Duh.
i dunno why I pictured that in my head as letting him walk and then signing him again.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
Silly idea? Or actual master plan?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Better plan
Let all the scrubs play with Holliday all year. Let them lose 100+ games with Holliday. Resign Holliday. Get first pick in draft. Keep 2nd round pick.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
I think Carter has a chance to be a great power hitter.
I can also see a guy like Corey Brown becoming a very good Centerfielder with Cust type at bats, Is that great? I think most teams would take that type of production.
Overall im excited about the system. I think alot of position player are going to take a big step forward, Im hoping anyway….. I would like to see a few guys like Barfield strengthen the system, guys that scouts dont think highly of.
by asfaninpismobeach on May 23, 2009 11:10 AM PDT reply actions
Our 1B success rate has been low for a few years.
I once thought Dan Johnson would be a strong complimentary guy if you had enough power elsewhere in the infield. Same with Barton though I expected him to develop 15 to 22 HR power. Barton may still happen but that hope is on life support. I, once again have high hopes for Carter but as my title said – our recent years track record has been iffy.
Baja been here
I think you nailed it
We traded away our position player with the biggest upside (Gonzalez), and while we still have a solid system there are no real stand-outs that aren’t pitchers.
Maybe we can trade Holliday for Gonzalez?
It all depends
on the trade return for Holliday plus this team was sold on their other young OFs like Buck, Sweeney, Cunningham, etc. Will the next group of Brown, Spencer, Sulentic, Dollittle/Carter (both have some outfield experience) end up better?
by Asfan4ever723 on May 23, 2009 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
i dont have confidence in the current group
Among buck, barton,sweeney, etc. Only suzuki is a keeper.
Potential greatness, heck even just above avg will hopefully come from the next wave of players.
I like how the rays got bartlett and zobrist as under the radar pickups for young and huff..neither bartlett/zobrist were considered big time players and theyve ended up more than useful. Thats why i’d like to see paennington, petit, patterson get extended shots. Its very possible the A’s might need an entire IF in 2010 w/ the chavez/ellis injuries, giambi,cabrera, crosby, nomar, etc all headed to free agency.
here it is
quite a deal for the Rays:
Delmon Young was traded by Tampa Bay to Minnesota on Wednesday night as part of a six-player deal that sent right-hander Matt Garza to the Rays.
In a swap of promising youngsters that’s been discussed for weeks, the Twins also gave up starting shortstop Jason Bartlett and minor league pitcher Eduardo Morlan while acquiring shortstop Brendan Harris and minor league outfielder Jason Pridie.
That deal is almost as one-sided as the old AJ for Nathan, Bonser and Liriano swindle
The monster at the end of this blog.
Yeah, Young really has flopped.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
And wouldn't Ryan Zimmerman look really good in Green & Gold!!!
The monster at the end of this blog.
Inoa and De Los Santos
Scouting reports seem that they have the “raw stuff” to be truly special. Whether that actually occurs who knows, but I at least have some hope in that.
Brett Hunter too, if he stays healthy has the goods.
by Pucking Insane on May 23, 2009 11:31 AM PDT reply actions
Glad you mentioned Hunter
The A’s totally re-vamped his delivery. The only number worth looking at right now is his IP, mainly because A-ball stats don’t include pitch counts. Maybe you can consider the stuff come July.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Really? Seemed pretty consistent to me.
From what I saw, and granted I only saw the middle few innings, he was sitting right around 88-89 mph, which appears to be his norm thus far.
by Pucking Insane on May 23, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions
His leg kick in the windup was a little different and his delivery in the stretch was also a little different.
You know, I didn't mention this on the game thread, TBRMKane,
but at times he seemed to use almost a slight “Bronson Arroyo like” leg kick that looked different and seemed to help – like maybe it was keeping him more balanced?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
What about Tyson Ross?
It seems strange to me that Hunter’s mechanics would be completely revamped but Ross’ mechanics are pretty horrid and they’re leaving it alone?
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
speaking about greatness
one of the most exciting moments at the Coliseum last night was when they showed LeBron James’ amazing last second three pointer to win the game against Orlando. I just watched it again on the internet….wow…
And Rajai Davis isn't part of the conversation?
How many other “better than good” players do you need on your team to field him?
Interleague Play: Celebrating Thirteen Seasons of Suck
by GreenNGoldSooner on May 23, 2009 12:16 PM PDT reply actions
I think this is a fascinating conversation, Nico
I featured it on sbnation.com’s front page because I think the question is universal for every team. It seems so tough to tell what guys are going to become studs at the major league level. Someone needs to invent a special sauce. grover, you on that?
by Tyler Bleszinski on May 23, 2009 12:35 PM PDT reply actions
Am I on the special sauce?
Do you even think before you post? There are so many ways that question could go badly and you direct it my way.
Thank you oh doting founder of this site.
The monster at the end of this blog.
maybe drafting high school players with upside
in the lower rounds and see if they develop? they’ve been low risk low reward for a while and it kinda shows.
but who knows maybe they’ll get lucky and get a trade like Danny Haren.
I saw on the Daily News that Mets fans are starting to want Matt Holliday in left rather than Sheffield or Daniel Murphy. Do the Mets have anybody? They have that one guy I forget the name, but he’s probably untouchable.
Wang’s ERA is the same as the balance in my checkbook - Jennifer
Brandon Wood?
Why is Brandon Wood never mentioned in A’s possible trades? The Angels keep saying the like him down the road, but it certainly doesn’t seem like it and Figgins will be there for a couple more years at least. Seems to make a lot of sense in my eyes, even though his price tag would be a little higher.
by GhostOfScutaro on May 23, 2009 12:55 PM PDT reply actions
Can the A's develop special players?
Outside of Suzuki, who was a sleeper, there hasn’t been a single position player to come to the MLB club and achieve much hitting success since the days of Tejada, Chavez and Hernandez. Even Nick Swisher, while certainly a major league player, fell short of what projections said about him.
But you look at Barton, Buck, Crosby, and the like, and you see disappointment everywhere. I have a feeling it’s a systemic problem. Unless you fix that, nobody is going to impress. I mean, look at Guzman - the A’s didn’t protect him and suddenly he goes wild in the Giants organization. Is that bad internal scouting, or simply that the Giants were able to make a couple of adjustments and turn him around?
this is the reported story of Guzman's signing with the Giants
from MLB.com Giants’ reporter Chris Haft
said Guzman, the A’s didn’t invite him to Major League camp. He added that Giants vice president of baseball operations Bobby Evans happened to call him shortly after Oakland’s snub, which led to his signing with San Francisco.
Half tempted to tie the loss of Guzman to the wishful thinking on Chavez
The monster at the end of this blog.
A quick look at Guzman's minor league stats
The A’s were insane not to invite him to camp.
He's probably a DH - but the A's might need a DH
because if they had a really good RH hitter it would be worth it to put Cust in the OF, and we don’t know when Carter will arrive and whether or not he’ll be able to handle 1B defensively.
I don’t think Guzman will help the Giants much because they can’t DH him, but he could have helped the A’s a lot.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The Giants will use him
I think the Giants still come out ahead even if he plays the field badly. If it turns out he can hit MLB pitching but can’t field for shit, then the Giants can let him adjust in 2009, and then trade him (and his six years under control) to an AL team for a top prospect.
There’s a dearth of quality hitters on teams like the A’s and Giants. This guy would’ve started the year in AAA in Sacramento, and with Garciaparra on the DL, he probably would have come up around two weeks ago to DH and maybe play first base instead of Bobby Crosby.
Totally - though watching his first start,
it was remarkable how many bad plays he managed to make at 1B. He missed a pickoff throw and a DP relay, neither of which bounced.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I mean just the fact that he was a "corner INFer"
with a consistently strong RH bat – sure he could be a AAAA hitter and definitely he might ultimately be a DH, not a corner INFer – but how do you give up on a RH hitter who mashes that well and hang on to some of the guys who have stayed on the 40-man roster ahead of him?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
What time do the gates open today?
I have bleacher tix and I’m taking my wife, father in law, and 2 kids to the game. I wanna get decent seats so I’m getting there early.
2 hrs before gametime?
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
this is from the A's website
link is here:
Gate Openings:
*Monday – Friday games: Stadium gates open one and a half (1.5) hours prior to scheduled start of the game.
Saturday & Sunday games: Stadium gates open two (2) hours prior to scheduled start of the game.
*Subject to change on selected dates. On large attendance games and special events, gates may open earlier to the public. On Opening Night the Coliseum will open 2 hours prior to game time. Additional games may be added or subtracted at a later date.
Thanks
I looked for it forever and couldn’t find that.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
I think Carter has the highes ceiling
I think he could be a 40 hr guy.
If you had a lineup of 9 Jack Custs who hit(Cust career average) .239 AVG, .382 OBP, and .475 SLG, then your team would score 6.12 runs per game-totalling to 991runs a season.The 08 rangers lead the majors in runs score with 901.
nope
"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT
BB and six other teams
When it takes a player that long to figure it out, you can’t say one of his early teams missed something. Same with Ludwick.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I want Mike Moustakas
what do you think it would take to get him?
- reminder
KC hasnt made playoffs since 1985 and have Alex Gordon currently at 3rd
My favorite player is whoever is hitting behind Bobby Crosby because no matter what they always look so good.
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