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A Defense- It's misguided to overreact against Beane

First, this is generally not a response to Nico's post. I'd be hard-pressed to answer most of his well-stated points. What I really disagree with is the overstated criticism I saw in the comments of that post. I also think there's a reasonable defense of Beane's treatment of 3B.

 

Beane made a foreseeable mistake with Geren. Unlike Nico, however, I think the 3B question was murky, and that Beane's approach is defensible--I think that Beane would be wrong to trade an asset for a 3B before he knew Chavez was done for absolutely sure, and that Garciaparra would not stay healthy. He can still trade the exact resources he would have last season. He can trade Gio, Gallagher, or Outman for a 3B solution. It is a mistake to make it an absolute requirement that he acquire a 3B last year, and to say he was short sighted for not doing so. FIrst, it's always a mistake to have absolute requirements; if the best offered talent was elsewhere...take it, and deal w/ 3b later. Second, and I can't stress this enough: we're not out of fungible assets just because we traded Haren, Harden, and Blanton. We STILL have resources- the talent Beane got in the trades I outline below.

The motivation for this diary comes from the fact that much anger is being directed at Beane, when, in fact, he's the only thing standing between us and the Royals(where one good start is huge news). I understand the frustration at 3B, and with the Holliday trade. However, some things (like the success of a team) require a larger sample size than a 3 year period to evaluate. A confluence of bad luck can happen to any GM, and make any 3 year period look good or bad. Think about how many bad breaks the A's have had. NOBODY disliked the Chavez deal at the time it was inked. The recent trades and deals, to me have been "fucking A" trades...and most people saw it that way at the time. The recent strain of thought is that those who defend Beane are in denial. To them, I say: Check the recent track record. It's not perfect but it's far above average. To suggest that Beane has checked out of baseball ignores just how good the "Rebulding" trades really were.

If you don't want to see a summary of trades you've already read about ad nauseum, now is a good time to skip to the comments. I just thought a reminder of recent history might be useful a this dim hour.

Star-divide

First, I'll highlight the past trades and deals, and argue that they were awesome given Beane's existing information, and only put us in trouble in HINDSIGHT:

Ellis signed to a team friendly deal- The consensus on AN, if I remember correctly, was that this deal was good. Injuries have ripped that idea. Question: Would AN have had Beane NOT sign Ellis? What better alternatives did Beane omit?

Swisher for Gio, FDLS, and Sweeney AMAZING. FDLS was a hotter prospect than Gio, and Gio was the reigning minor league strikeout leader. In Hindsight: FDLS gets TJ surgery, Gio is not catching fire, might be a headcase. Sweeney (THE THROW-IN) has no power.

Haren for C-gon, Smith, Eveland, Anderson, Carter, Cunningham WOW. This is an A+++ trade. Would anyone rather have the Santana package? We're still drooling over Carter and Anderson...and Cunningham is an unbelievable 3rd piece.

Harden for Gallagher, Donaldson, Murton, and Patterson The market was not as strong for Harden as we'd like. Gallagher is a plus arm, and Donaldson has preformed well. Also, Patterson/Murton don't seem like much, but Beane takes fliers on recovery projects all the time. If you enjoy Beane's success with Gaudin and Cust, you should tolerate his occasional miss too.

Blanton for Cardenas, Outman  Outman has outperformed Blanton in 2009: 108 Era+ vs. Blanton's horrible 66. Even if that seems extreme, Blanton's career ERA+ is just 99, so you can't worry too much about losing him. The real reason to love this trade is Cardenas, for obvious reasons.

Smith, C-Gon, Street for Holliday This is only one I think  you can question, up-front, without hindsight. It is pretty early to judge here...Holliday could start preforming well, or he could slump. The answer will dictate the value of the trade, along with C-Gon's value. I'll admit, this is the hardest one to argue. The best defense is this: this is only a negative trade to the extent that we lost out on Carlos Gonzales. But howevermuch of a loss you believe that is, it makes the Haren trade that much better. You can argue Beane pissed away an asset, but he earned that asset too.

The bottom line is this. If FLDS, Gio, Cahill, Anderson, Outman, Gallagher, and Eveland were all doing AAA or better, Ellis were healthy, and Holliday was closer to his career averages, you'd be looking at a team that easily competes with the Angels. On top of that, among those 7 arms, you'd easily have an extraneous asset to fill the hole at 3B. By the way, news flash: Cabrera's not going to hit this badly all season. He'll improve, even if he doesn't end up being a plus preformer.

You can say that Beane didn't fill 3B soon enough. But if you do that, make sure you know exactly which prospect you wish Beane had acquired. My guess is that he was supposed to reach this crisis point if Chavez were injured, and then have a surplus of pitching prospects to trade for 3b. Guess what- he still has that surplus, even with the FDLS injury. That surplus exists EVEN though those players are not plus MLB starters yet. They all have the potential to be plus starters.

The Holliday trade made it so that if things broke well, we'd be a playoff team. As it is, there's no reason that the loss of the hope that we could compete this season should make us question a huge body of work from Beane. It should take more than a 3 year period (with one ALCS appearance!) for us to start questioning Beane's intelligence, commitment, or ability. If you wanna call him out for Holliday, or 3B, go ahead. The questions on the recent thread are much deeper than that, and I think that's way premature.

I get the frustration with Lew, Geren, and the team. Blaming Beane for that is wrong.

27 recs  |  Comment 89 comments

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Rec'd. Let's all lower the pitchforks.

Honestly, I don’t think the average yahoo(!) cares about the future.

Suppose that Beane held on to all those players. Then what? Beane made a calculated risk (or many of them), and so far, they haven’t panned out. But their careers are hardly over.

Those who are giving up on all the prospects that were rushed to the big leagues are the same ones who will be complaining in 5 years when they’re playing their peak seasons for other teams. There’s still a ton of talent in this system. Current suckiness aside, the future’s not all that bleak.

m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!

by JediLeroy on May 18, 2009 12:16 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

The way i see it

Beane had some pretty good luck in the early half of the decade. What happens when good luck meets a good GM? He gets a godlike image. The A’s fanbase has been spoiled. Everyone expects him to wave his magic wand and make everything better. But when luck starts to run out and turn against you, coupled with a spoiled fanbase that expects him to be a god, people want to rip his head off. Wake up people, it’s reality. Sometimes bad things happen, you can’t win forever.

"It's like déjà vu all over again." -yogi berra

by Cheezombie on May 18, 2009 12:38 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Rec'd

Really solid post. I don’t mind those who criticize Billy Beane for moves he’s made, but what pissed me off the most about the front page post was the comments about Beane “not caring”. He’s working his ass off for the team, and honestly there is only so much a GM can do, especially during the season.

"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT

by travdog6 on May 18, 2009 12:42 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

"Working his ass off for the team"

Do you really know this to be true? Some would counter that Beane isn’t working as hard for the Oakland A’s as he should be… Beane seems to be spending more time on himself, especially over the past 5 years…

- Personal Appearances throughout the World
- Multiple Trips to White Hart Lane / England / Etc.
- San Jose Earthquakes
- Family Life (Twins)

Anyways, I think it can be said that Beane is delegating GM/Management a lot more than he did from 1998 – 2005… Personally, I don’t think he trusted JP Riccardi as much as Paul Depodesta. I now I think Beane trusts David Forst more than he trusted Paul Depodesta. So, with trust comes more delegation. Less Control = Less Focus?

by Colorado Fan on May 18, 2009 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You know, I'm not sure

and none of us can be. What I would point out is that this GM “team”…whether it be Beane, Forst, or others, is preforming well above average. Even if it is a platoon situation…why would we ask Beane to step down as a result? That makes no sense.

by ohmangoAs on May 18, 2009 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, and one more thing

it’s awfully petulant for fans to take two bad seasons to imply a lack of focus, and then ask a GM to consider his motivation. Really?

by ohmangoAs on May 18, 2009 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

I just think that Beane appears to be giving away some of his “power”. I have actually seen David Forst’s face more than Billy Beane’s over the past 3 seasons.

by Colorado Fan on May 18, 2009 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

On the surface, "only" two seasons is a bit impatient, but...

…the results thus far, and the hope for the future is less than encouraging. It doesn’t help that BB himself has said in the past that 2 consecutive losing seasons is a bad thing for a small market club if it wishes to keep fan’s interest (paraphrasing), and here we are looking at 3 with no real reason to hope we’ll avoid a 4th as we seem to be regressing.

Maybe it will all fall together at some point, but first we were supposed to be seeing some fire in 2009 with the team being a serious contender in 2010. Then, it was 2010 before we’d see any results. Now, it’s 2011.

How many times and how far do we have to push it back before we wake up and realize that it isn’t working?

I could prove God statistically. Take the human body alone - the chances that all the functions of an individual would just happen is a statistical monstrosity.
~George Gallup

by UncleLeo on May 18, 2009 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well hold on

young pitchers frequently require a year to put it together. If 4 of Gallagher, Gio, Cahill, Anderson, Mazzaro, Braden and Outman start preforming well, we have great strength in SP. And we also have a surplus (FDLS, Simmons, H-Rod, Leon, Outman, Ross, Italiano, Hunter and even Ynoa) to trade for a 3B. On top of that, we have budget for a huge contract, which could bring an elite OF. We need Buck, Cust, Sweeney, Barton, Doolittle, Carter and Cunningham to fill 2OF, DH, and 1B.

So, assuming 3B gets handled by pitching surplus (or Holliday), 2B gets handled by Ellis or Cardenas, and 1B by Doolittle, Carter, or Barton, we could be looking at a plus IF as soon as the second half of this season.

groupthink is a fascinating psychology. People have forgotten our top Farm system and excellent under-25 depth and talent awfully fast.

by ohmangoAs on May 18, 2009 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

FYI, that's

7 candidates for SP 1-4
7 Candidates for 2OF spots, DH, and 1B
3 Candidates for 2B (Ellis, Kennedy, and Cardenas)
And all of those candidates are basically 25 or younger, besides Braden, Cust, Ellis, and Kennedy.

for 3B, we have Cardenas if ellis is ok at 2b, OR we can trade Holliday or SP depth

I have no clue why people are flipping out at Beane. This season appears screwed, but the franchise sure isn’t.

by ohmangoAs on May 18, 2009 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's great, but...

…I’ve been an A’s fan since the 70s, and do you know how many times our farm system has been “overstocked”?

Way too many to count, and only a handful of those players has been good, let alone memorable. I’ve grown tired of depending on the spin in the annual media guide.

Yeah yeah yeah, this time it’s different. Ok.

I could prove God statistically. Take the human body alone - the chances that all the functions of an individual would just happen is a statistical monstrosity.
~George Gallup

by UncleLeo on May 18, 2009 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fine, you can say they have a good chance they will fail.

But you also have little basis for this:

the hope for the future is less than encouraging. It doesn’t help that BB himself has said in the past that 2 consecutive losing seasons is a bad thing for a small market club if it wishes to keep fan’s interest (paraphrasing), and here we are looking at 3 with no real reason to hope we’ll avoid a 4th as we seem to be regressing

by ohmangoAs on May 18, 2009 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which part are you talking about?

My paraphrasing of Beane’s words, or my conclusions based on my observations of the present and recent past and how they may affect what the future might hold?

I could prove God statistically. Take the human body alone - the chances that all the functions of an individual would just happen is a statistical monstrosity.
~George Gallup

by UncleLeo on May 19, 2009 8:49 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your conclusion,

which states that there is “no real reason to hope we’ll avoid a 4th [losing season]” (Emphasis mine)

You can argue that prospects often don’t pan out (you’d be right), but that wouldn’t lead to the conclusion that there’s no hope.

by ohmangoAs on May 19, 2009 9:12 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I actually agree with this

No hope in TB until last year; no hope in Milwaukee until 2007; no hope in Oakland until 1999; no hope in Atlanta until 1991.

Teams rarely move gradually up— it usually comes with a great leap, and sometimes after a step back the pervious year or years.

That’s the optimist in me. The pessimist says: WE’RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!

by jasonthea on May 19, 2009 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

For every 1 example of that...

…there are probably 10 or more of teams that, have every reason to expect the same, and don’t.

I could prove God statistically. Take the human body alone - the chances that all the functions of an individual would just happen is a statistical monstrosity.
~George Gallup

by UncleLeo on May 19, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Never meant to imply "no hope", but...

…what I’m seeing isn’t giving me any reason TO hope, either.

I could prove God statistically. Take the human body alone - the chances that all the functions of an individual would just happen is a statistical monstrosity.
~George Gallup

by UncleLeo on May 19, 2009 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

DAMN

I have no clue why I omitted SS throughout this. Maybe I really wanted to?

Anyways, we can survive subpar performance at SS, or trade assets to fix it. I have to think the ~10 SP prospects we have below AAA and Holliday are enough to fill SS and 3B.

by ohmangoAs on May 18, 2009 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

2009 was always supposed to be a rebuilding year ...

BB just saw an opportunity to get some good bats for cheap, because of the depressed economy, without hurting the rebuilding effort, which could have potentially given us a good year to build into the properly rebuilt team …

Projections for the 2009 A’s, after adding Holliday, Giambi, Nomar and Cabrera were only mid to upper 80s in wins.

Yeah, things have pretty much broke as badly as they could, sometimes that happens.

Last year was SUPPOSED to be a rebuilding year. This year was SUPPOSED to be a rebuilding year. Billy Beane apologizes for giving you the hope of something better.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on May 18, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

disagree at the spending allocation

To me both Cust and Suzuki look like good long term signings. I would have preferred to see the Giambi money and OCab money used to lock these two guys up long term.

They're called RUNS for a reason.

by connie mack on May 18, 2009 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unnecessary snarky closing comment aside, Yes and no...

…I agree that this year was supposed to be a rebuilding year in the sense that we were never supposed to really contend this year (as per the original plan, I mean), but I do feel that we were led to believe that some sort of visible and substantial improvement would be noticeable.

Mid to upper 80s in wins would be great. I never said, nor did I imply, that I expected more. I’m sorry if you’re still seeing this as being right on track and according to plan, but I’m not seeing that. I’m seeing some positions stocked with great potential and some gaping holes in other positions… hardly the makes of the juggernaut we’ve been expecting.

I could prove God statistically. Take the human body alone - the chances that all the functions of an individual would just happen is a statistical monstrosity.
~George Gallup

by UncleLeo on May 18, 2009 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The mid-long term plan ...

had no expectations for this year — this year is irrelevant to that plan.

They did make some moves to try to give the team a short term lift while the longer term stuff came together — if you want to criticize BB for his talent evaluation in terms of Giambi and Holliday, well, I think you’d be — otherwise, what are you actually complaining about? 2 and 1/4 consecutive losing seasons from a small market club … umkay …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on May 18, 2009 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think its okay to blame Beane,

its more the context of the blame. Saying the rebuild is a failure because of the Holliday trade, or that Beane sucks because he didn’t re-sign Hudson and Mulder seems totally misguided. If any of these scenarios had played out differently the A’s would still be just as awful in 2009.

Nevertheless, I think there are valid criticisms to be made of Beane: promoting Anderson/Cahill to the big club too soon, lowballing Furcal, letting Guzman go despite a total lack of depth at 3B. And I could go on…

I think its as foolish to blame Beane for all the team’s problems as it is to pretend he’s encased in an aura of infallibility because he discovered moneyball. He’s a GM playing by the same rules as the 29 other GMs, and given that seven out of the ten teams he’s fielded over the last decade have been competitive, he’s done a pretty good job. You can’t always expect John Schuerholz, even if you’re John Schuerholz.

I do think, however, Beane would do well, by both the players and the fans, to repair some of the problems of perception he’s created regarding the A’s front office. He’s part owner, his best man is manager, his high school alum is the team’s (chronically injured) franchise player. There’s a high rate of turnover at some key coaching positions. What was once an organization known for attracting some of the most innovative young baseball minds has turned into Billy Beane’s good ol’ boys club. So I can see why some people are tempted to criticize Beane’s motives and methodologies – because that fundamental system of checks and balances where a manager is responsible to a GM, and a GM responsible to an owner, doesn’t seem to be part of our team’s M.O.

by scromulus on May 18, 2009 12:54 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I'll be first to admit there are problems

It’s just that when you look at the recent track record…there’s not a single trade I’ll criticize. Even Holliday seems like a structured gamble- we should be able to recoup some cost at the deadline.

The young pitchers up early? Well, yeah, I’m not a huge fan. But really, it’s hard to know what alternatives there really were. For example, Nico’s Randy Wolf for $5M just doesn’t appeal that much to me either.

by ohmangoAs on May 18, 2009 1:26 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I basically agree.

And while I personally would have done the Wolf trade just to take some innings off the young pitchers’ shoulders, I really don’t think its important in the history of this season or this franchise.

And I especially agree about the trades. When Beane realized the team was headed into decline he basically did everything right:

1. Rather than holding on to the team’s best players in hopes that a chronically injured, organizationally famished A’s team would magically get better, he dealt said players at their peak value.

2. Rather than overpaying to acquire an AAA players who filled immediate organizational needs, Beane realized the team’s problems were more long-term, and acquired a vast base of lower-level prospects with the likelihood of valorizing, value-wise, over time. Its worth remembering that the value of Haren, Swisher, Blanton, Harden, and Street was limited by these players’ FA clocks. Beane’s trades allowed him to transfer a hefty chunk of these players’ value into longer term assets – Anderson, Cunningham, Carter, FLDS, Gallagher, Spencer, Cardenas, Donaldson, Outman – whose value is likely to increase going forward, and by a lot.

3. Realizing the team probably wasn’t going to be competitive following his four big trades, Beane did his best to acquire value on the 2009 FA market by signing players like Nomar, Cabrera and Giambi, thereby replenishing his depleted trade-stock.

And I also agree that its too early to judge the Holliday trade.

A lesser GM, given control of the A’s, might have lost players to FA without receiving anything back, traded away minor league talent in a vein attempt to compete, and overpaid for past performace on the FA market.

I would say that as the A’s swell of minor league talent rises to the top over the next couple years, it becomes ever more incumbent upon Beane to address the team’s long-term organizational needs – SS and 3B – because that’s what you do when its time to compete. The good news is that, given the care he’s shown thus far in the rebuild effort, Beane will have loads of payroll flexibility and young trade chips with which to go about this task.

by scromulus on May 18, 2009 2:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There was no reason not to resign Gaudin...

send him back to Sacramento, and tell him to stretch his arm out, he would get the first chance at Starting Spot. zero cost.

They're called RUNS for a reason.

by connie mack on May 18, 2009 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe because Gaudin was pissed that he was demoted to the bullpen?

I doubt Gaudin would have actually signed with the A’s. Also SD is a great place for a pitcher to revive their career.

Some of the most violent things I’ve ever seen were at Raiders games. And I’ve been to jail. - leopold bloom

by designatedforassignment on May 18, 2009 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gaudin later said that the A's approached him

but only for relieving not for starting, and he wanted the chance to start.

by OaklandSi on May 18, 2009 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes yes yes, rec'd

I think there’s been a whole boatload of negativity on this site lately—not the “We’re all gonna die” kind of negativity—real negativity. It’s disappointing, too. I understand that when people get frustrated, they tend to play the blame game. But blaming Beane and Geren for why Cabrera or Holliday or Giambi are all off to slow starts, or that Nomar, Chavez and Ellis are all injured—that’s ridiculous.

by NateHST on May 18, 2009 1:22 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

One thing occurred to me Nate

You’ve been doing your trade series (which I’ve really enjoyed btw)

The interesting thing is that you’ve focused on our expiring/old contracts. I’m sure Holliday is will fetch a price, But I KNOW Ellis will be undervalued and won’t. If I had to guess, my money’s on a horizontal prospect-for-prospect trade being the next. Care to make a post on generic top-50 starting prospect (Gio, Mazzaro, Gallagher, etc.) for X?

Just a thought…

by ohmangoAs on May 18, 2009 1:38 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean

Examining organizational strengths/weaknesses and looking at possible prospect swapping?

by NateHST on May 18, 2009 2:01 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

basically

That might be a lot of work, so I understand if it wasn’t in your original plan.

by ohmangoAs on May 18, 2009 2:11 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Prospect for prospect trades rarely happen

The Garza for Young beast does not often rear its head.

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on May 18, 2009 3:05 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rec'd

Beane created a team that many (including myself) thought had the best chance in the AL West of making the playoffs. It’s unfortunate that this slow start has probably made their projection a mid 70 win team. But until its late-June, I’m not giving up. Hell, it wasn’t until last year that A’s fans didn’t utter the familiar refrain of wait until after May. The A’s have always started slow. Giambi has always started slow. Duke will come back soon.

I’ve seen my share of craziness on the diamond (and I’ve only been a hardcore fan since ‘97). Perhaps the A’s will play .800 ball for a couple of months. Perhaps they’ll reel off 20 in a row. Perhaps they’ll remind me of why I love this game. To paraphrase an old friend, perhaps they’ll remind me that there are times I can’t tell the difference between the game and magic.

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on May 18, 2009 3:15 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

just frustration

One of the things about this season that is really crazy-making is the fact that the AL West really is that weak and the A’s really did seem ready to compete back at the start. At this point, the hole might already be deep enough that, even if things really started falling into place (Holliday and Cabrera hitting, Duke and Chavvy coming back strong), we might not have enough talent to catch Texas or whoever else.

I can’t blame Beane for taking a shot at the playoffs when the opportunity is clearly there. I would have done the same in his place. But in hindsight, I do wish that we had gone on a pure rebuilding route (i.e. keep CGon, give our young major league outfielders a longer leash, etc)

by colin on May 18, 2009 7:12 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It stinks to go in pre-flop...

..and be dealt the 8-3!

DOUBLE REVISED- The magical goblins that live in the Reverend Billy Lard's shower just told him that actually, nobody's gonna improve this year and everyone will be released by June except for Suzuki and Cust... Sorry, kids...

by Gaijin_Suketto on May 18, 2009 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nobody is giving up

But….

When a team starts this bad, it is hard to say anyone is "overreacting. When the offense appears to be set on another underperforming season, it’s hard to say anyone is “overreacting”. When the manager shows so little ability to turn things around and happens to be the GM’s good buddy, it’s hard to say anyone is “overreacting”. When the team is in ballpark limbo, and appears to be doing little or nothing to welcome or assuage its existing fan base, it’s hard to say anyone is “overreacting”. When, almost as a cruel joke, Hollywood is about to make what, as far as I know, is the first feature length film which ever had a baseball GM (Branch Rickey played a deservedly big role in the Jackie Robinson film) as its protagonist, and yet that said team has never even won a league championship and is now into its third year as a losing nine, it’s hard to say anyone is “overreacting”.

Sure, we’ve been spoiled. But so what? we have a right not to expect that we will be Kansas City or Pittsburgh. (And we may not be KC this year, that’s for sure)

As to the merits of your analysis:

!) Ellis’ resigning is not a major thing either way— Kennedy has become a perfectly adequate replacement, and we can hope that Ellis’ will still bring excellent defense and some hitting every now and then when he returns;

2) I don’t think you can call the Swisher trade “AMAZING” now, nor when it was first made. It was a fair deal. Things didn’t work out for the White Sox, and they haven’t really worked out for the A’s. Maybe the Yankees will be the ultimate beneficiary, though his BA is already at 250 and heading south;

3) the Haren deal as a very good deal— but its success now hinges, at least in part, as to what happens with Holliday and how or if the A’s fill the CF position. If Gonzalez turns out to be the “one that got away”, then what we get back for Holliday starts mattering a lot unless Anderson, Carter and Cunningham all hit in the next couple of years, which is certainly possible. But still overall this was a very good deal, i agree;

4) Harden will always be an enigma, for the team that has him and the one(s) who once had him. And this trade i pretty enigmatic, now resting on whether or not Donaldson is a big league catcher or not. From the Cubs’ standpoint they’ve already gotten enough value out of this deal— Harden helped them reach the playoffs. If he helps them do it again or, better yet, reach that 100 yr old Promised Land of a WC, then it’s one of the best deals in their history. But he may blow up with injury again, too— in fact, proably will. Not a bad deal, but hardly a great deal.

5) i have no problems with the Blanton deal. Sure it would be nice to have an inning-eater, but the A’sprobably maximized Joe’s ability for three plus years, and Outman is a decent enough replacement and cardenas could be special;

6) Holliday we all agree on and the jury is out.

But BB cannot be judged simply by these moves— he has left the cupboard bare on the left side of the infield. Other than Frank Thomas, his veteran acquisitions and, for that matter, most of his longer-term signings, ahve been busts for years now. Kendall-Kotsay-Loaiza-Nomar-Giambi-Cabrera-Piazza-Chavez-Dye…. some more egregiously bad than others, but Beane’s batting average has been Buck-like (there, I said it) in these type of moves, or the non-moves that were made because of them.

The bottom line is the product has sucked for over two years now— and the truth is that the team was already in decline in 2006, but for some magical overperformance and one nice playoff series. They were gangbusters— against all odds- in 2001-02. It has actually been a steady decline ever since. We’re waiting, more and more impatiently, for the pendulum to start swinging the other way.

by jasonthea on May 18, 2009 7:12 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I understand your position.

and it’s well thought out.

A few questions:

I don’t think you can call the Swisher trade "AMAZING" now, nor when it was first made. It was a fair deal. Things didn’t work out for the White Sox, and they haven’t really worked out for the A’s. Maybe the Yankees will be the ultimate beneficiary, though his BA is already at 250 and heading south;

Two plus arms + a good OF isn’t enough? People forget just how highly rated both FDLS and Gio were. FDLS was higher rated than Cahill in everyone’s view at the time of the deal.

Harden will always be an enigma, for the team that has him and the one(s) who once had him. And this trade i pretty enigmatic, now resting on whether or not Donaldson is a big league catcher or not. From the Cubs’ standpoint they’ve already gotten enough value out of this deal— Harden helped them reach the playoffs. If he helps them do it again or, better yet, reach that 100 yr old Promised Land of a WC, then it’s one of the best deals in their history. But he may blow up with injury again, too— in fact, proably will. Not a bad deal, but hardly a great deal

The point is this. The Cubs might enjoy the deal too- because the playoffs are high leverage. But for the A’s, Harden has absolutely no value. 5 good starts a year (along with 3 rusty returning from injury 4-inning starts) do absolutely no good. I would take Gallagher for Harden, straight up, no questions. Donaldson doesn’t have to be a MLB Catcher. If he is, then the A’s got 7 years of starting catcher + 7 years of a #3 SP for 2 years of injured Harden. That would be a “fucking A” trade in my book.

But BB cannot be judged simply by these moves— he has left the cupboard bare on the left side of the infield. Other than Frank Thomas, his veteran acquisitions and, for that matter, most of his longer-term signings, ahve been busts for years now. Kendall-Kotsay-Loaiza-Nomar-Giambi-Cabrera-Piazza-Chavez-Dye…. some more egregiously bad than others, but Beane’s batting average has been Buck-like (there, I said it) in these type of moves, or the non-moves that were made because of them.

I made a few comments on this issue in the FanPost- notably: 1. that it would be silly to acquire a 3B, then have Chavez healthy, and blocking that 3B. Waiting and seeing was better. 2. Beane still has the exact fungible assets he needs to trade for a 3B, and 3. that Beane should have taken the best talent availible rather than insisting on a 3B. I believe he did this.
I think you have to answer those before I think further on the issue.

by ohmangoAs on May 18, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

In order

1. Both organizations paid their money and took their chances. The fact that the deal hasn’t worked out for either does not make it good or bad for either— I maintain it was a fair deal for both parties;

2. Harden the enigma— real good when he’s right— rarely right. i think Beane got what he could when he could— thanks to the Brewers and Sabathia— a nice deal, but sorry i can’t too excited about Gallagher or Donaldson, though I’m glad he went with more quantity at both positions.

3. Beane himself rejects your view in his comments to Slusser yesterday. he in effect said he let his emotions get the better of him re: Chavez— i.e, “I should have figured out a way to replace him at 3rd a lot earlier”. Case closed on that one, and the draft should have been used to deal with it.

by jasonthea on May 18, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

1.

BB dealt for prospects — DLS should still be considered a top prospect, unless he cannot come back successfully from surgery. Gio is still just 23 and still has nasty stuff — like many young pitcher he needs some time to learn to control the strike zone. He’s still a very valuable property. It’s way too early to assess whether or not it worked out for the A’s. Clearly it was an epic failure for the Sox.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on May 18, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Gallagher looking strong tonight

Oh God, this is miserable. Beane is a gambler betting red and seeing black come every single time.

by jasonthea on May 18, 2009 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

gio looking good, too

I’m proud of the effort— 11 runs allowed in 5IP— could be a lot worse.

by jasonthea on May 18, 2009 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good rebuttal fanpost, ohmangoas

Well presented.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on May 18, 2009 7:54 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Agree with most of your points

I mainly disagree with you (and agree with Nico) that trading away Haren is looking less and less WOW. Sure, this is 20/20 hindsight, but Haren is an elite young pitcher. They don’t come along so often, and when you do, it’s special. (see Lincecum, Tim).

Smith and Eveland are servicable, back end of the rotation guys. Cunningham – maybe. If Anderson AND Carter both pan out as elite pitchers, then this was a WOW trade. But, if when it is all done, only one of them clicks, we traded one elite pitcher for another – a fair swap. And if neither pans out, it’s a big loss.

Overall, BB acquired a ton of good prospects. But they have to pan out. I think the frustration many of us feel is seeing highly touted prospects like Barton and Buck and Gio and CarGon disappoint. While none of them seems to be catching fire.

by Miata71 on May 18, 2009 8:44 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Carter isn't a pitcher

Eveland— consigned to the minor leagues— and Anderson are the two pitchers remaining from that deal.

by jasonthea on May 18, 2009 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

you never know, they're still trying to find a position for carter...

FREE KRAUT
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on May 18, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Doh! - I was thinking Cahill of course...

But that actually makes my point even more. We traded a truly elite young affordable (and dare I say healthy) pitcher, Haren, for Anderson, who might pan out to be an elite pitcher. Plus a bunch of guys who haven’t produced much (yet).

by Miata71 on May 18, 2009 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol, the grass is always greener on the other side

any knowledgeable dbacks fan probably considers that trade to be a total disaster, even though haren is elite.

FREE KRAUT
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on May 18, 2009 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Total disaster?

Perhaps they overpaid a bit or it’s a bad strategy, but Haren has been phenomenal for them, calling it a total disaster is ridiculous …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on May 18, 2009 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agree - it's far from a disaster for the dbacks

For a Year and 1 month, it’s been a total win for the dbacks. And they just extended Haren’s contract at a reasonable price for 4 years. Barring an injury or collapse, which is always possible, they got an elite young pitcher, inexpensively, for 6 years. As fans can only hope that Anderson matches that.

by Miata71 on May 18, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

what the a's gave up is three years of haren

FREE KRAUT
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on May 18, 2009 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

well, they didn't make the playoffs despite haren pitching as well as he could be expected to last year

and they gave up all those prospects assuming the guys they kept would work out, but now they may lack the depth to stay competitive if guys like chris young don’t start hitting.

FREE KRAUT
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on May 18, 2009 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lincecum is great right now.

But I have heard analysis of his motion which leads me,(and others), to think that length of service for the Giants might be shorter than hoped. I would love to be wrong, and have him go on to a Nolan Ryan length career, but (barring a major change in his delivery-something that is totally possible) I doubt it.

"It calms down as we get further from Opening Day " Jeff

by tresselfan on May 18, 2009 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually I love the Haren trade - I think the A's got a TON.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on May 19, 2009 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Crosby/Chavez have done nothing for 3 yrs

i see no reason why they couldnt produce anyone else during that time. For whatever reason it wasnt a priority in the draft and wasnt a priority in any of their trades. so other than scutaro/hannahan/murphy etc they couldnt try anyone else? Beane has attempted trades for ginter/ant. perez by trading “depth” guys like ethier/nel. cruz those didnt work out. theyve only drafted 3 third baseman in the top 10 rds in the last 5 yrs…snyder/baisley/leslie

by Asfan4ever723 on May 18, 2009 10:14 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

This is what I'm thinking.

Regarding Chavez specifically. I understand the expectation that he’d recover and could be counted on… up to a point. That point came 1-2 years ago, and the failure since to realistically address the position and get or groom a good “Plan B” is pure neglect and dropping the ball (no pun intended).

I could prove God statistically. Take the human body alone - the chances that all the functions of an individual would just happen is a statistical monstrosity.
~George Gallup

by UncleLeo on May 18, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

And now comes news Chavez has a herniated disk and may retire

Does that at least free up payroll? Serious question.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on May 19, 2009 8:00 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think so

I don’t think the A’s would ask that of him. Nor should they.

"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King

by Buck Turgidson on May 19, 2009 8:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Might allow them to collect insurance money -- effectively freeing up payroll ...

but he will collect every penny owed in his contract.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on May 19, 2009 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Keith Lieppman?

One angle I’m surprised hasn’t received more attention (and maybe I missed it) is the player development and scouting issue. Is it reasonable to think that a share of the blame could fall on guys like Keith Lieppman or Eric Kubota?

It seems everyone shares a common frustration that the players coming through the minor league ranks are not performing as we would like. Sure, we have some solid prospects on the horizon but I’m not about to celebrate these players quite yet. Players are difficult to project and there is no such thing as a sure thing so let’s wait and see before we celebrate the future of Cardenas, Christian, Coleman, Carter, Doolittle, Mazarro, etc.

Personally, I’ve been a little upset with the way some players have been jerked around between AAA and the bigs (and I know I’m not alone- Petit, Gio, Eveland, Barton, etc all fall into this category and there has been a lot of discussion around it). Now, it may all work out and be part of the master plan but for now this up and down style of development doesn’t seem to be paying dividends.

As far as drafting is concerned, I’m not sure who makes the decisions in the room (maybe the source of flying chairs still reigns supreme) but it is something worth considering. If it isn’t Beane making the calls then maybe our lack of 3b (and until recently MI depth) falls on someone else.

This argument is not meant to change the target of blame as much as to address what else could be creating these disappointing seasons. As much as this season pains me to watch I am more worried about how decisions made this year could impact 2010 and beyond.

If the A's can build around Holiday, Furcal, Cust, and maybe call up 2nd baseman Wes Childs at some point in the year, they have a shot to take a weak AL West. -- jameersju post on ESPN.com

by youdownwithOBP on May 18, 2009 11:07 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

How much has the low payroll/budget become more of an excuse than a challenge?

I could prove God statistically. Take the human body alone - the chances that all the functions of an individual would just happen is a statistical monstrosity.
~George Gallup

by UncleLeo on May 18, 2009 11:14 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

i'm not sure why this is a separate diary instead of a comment in the other thread, but

at least get the facts right:

Haren for C-gon, Smith, Eveland, Anderson, Carter, Cunningham

you forgot connor robertson.
Harden for Gallagher, Donaldson, Murton, and Patterson

you forgot chad gaudin.
Blanton for Cardenas, Outman

you forgot matt spencer, who had a .900 OPS and 10 HR in stockton before moving up to midland.

FK
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on May 18, 2009 11:58 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough

As for the comment issue, I’ll admit I had enough to say that I didn’t want to be the 420th comment. It doesn’t appear people are angry at me for hogging the attention :)

I’ll be honest, I had full knowledge of Robertson and Gaudin in the abstract, but I forgot to include them, and that’s as much because they were throw-ins as because I’m forgetful. My bad. Note that their inclusion changes the evaluation of the trade very little, if at all.

I regret forgetting Spencer, since I love his power potential, and have been watching him in the Minor League updates.

by ohmangoAs on May 18, 2009 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it was perfectly reasonable to start a new thread.

That other one was enormous. If it were a game thread there would have been clamor for a new one anyway. Your response fully warranted a new fanpost, imho. I for one appreciate it, since I find the software bogs down when a post goes past about 400 comments.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on May 19, 2009 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The problem is Beane lost his patience.

He has to get a high upside talent at either 3b or SS to come out even in the Holliday trade. Beane also rushed Cahill and Anderson to the majors without mastering AA.

by Tbone 1 on May 18, 2009 8:37 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I've got to wonder,

how much of Beane’s decision to go for it this year was influenced by unhappy fans?

"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT

by travdog6 on May 18, 2009 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

How do you figure?

He has to get more or less the same amount of talent he gave up to come out even in the Hollday trade. He didn’t give up a high upside talent at 3b or SS …

Albeit, in a limited sample size, Cahill and Anderson both dominated AA.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on May 19, 2009 1:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thoughts on the rebuttal

ohmangoAs, you did a nice job summarizing the trades and making a case for them.

I do think it’s premature to reach any sweeping conclusions about most of the trades. You can make a “good” trade and come out with a bad result, of course, but the game is about results – not how highly ranked a prospect was at one time.

I think you’re giving Beane too much credit regarding the black hole that is third base. There has been a good reason to draft or acquire a third baseman for several years now, if only for insurance and long-term planning. It’s been easy to foresee that third base was going to be a major problem for the last two years at least, and the notion that Chavez would return from multiple surgeries and play a demanding defensive position was foolhardy. The Garciaparra signing, while harmless in the abstract, was not a solution. The guy can’t stay healthy. The only surprise would have been if he had stayed healthy.

Shortstop is another major problem, and Cabrera is only a band-aid.

I think the best defense of Billy Beane is that his track record is quite good, given the payroll constraints. His biggest problem may simply be that the rest of major league baseball caught up with him.

If the backlash against Beane on a site whose founder once gave out “In Billy We Trust” T-shirts seems like overkill, it’s probably in the nagging sense that Beane, having become a celebrity for his smarts, isn’t making smart decisions and may not be as engaged and driven as he used to be.

The team’s injury problems are too steady to be chalked up only to bad luck. The Geren hiring was an obvious mistake that many people called at the time. The chatter about soccer and personal appearances and “Moneyball” fame are all well and good when the team is either winning or showing promise. Beane, with Michael Lewis’ help, gives the A’s franchise a bit of glamour. But it starts to grate when the team is one of the worst in the league.

Beane deserves enormous credit for the work he has done over the years. But it’s also fair to judge him on recent performance. Right now, he’s running a bad and boring team.

by bear88 on May 18, 2009 11:40 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Also, the point of this diary was to defend the

recent performance. I think Devo concedes too much in the last paragraph above…the recent performance isn’t some failure that we just have to swallow. It was a series of trades that put us in position to be a great team again. Seriously, we all at AN will talk again in a year. People are conflating bad performance NOW with a poor outlook for the future. They are mistaking losing now as a failure in rebuilding. I think that’s the big mistake.

Devo’s second paragraph is an excellent defense of the wait-and-see approach to 3B. Guess what- if Beane had traded Gio for a 3b prospect, and then left that prospect stuck behind a healthy Chavez and Garciaparra, we’d be screaming now.

Finally, there is no evidence at all that third base options were available to Beane via trade. There’s no reason to think Headley was available, and especially not in exchange for Haren, Harden, Swisher, or Blanton. If anything, the Padres would want top SP prospects such as a completely healthy FDLS or Gio. SURPRISE- thanks to Beane, that’s exactly what we can offer them now, and couldn’t have last year.

by ohmangoAs on May 19, 2009 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you for writing this

I was afraid we were ALL GONNA DIE,.,

Save Rajai Davis

by oakinboston on May 19, 2009 6:46 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

We still are

"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."

-Charles Manson

by kaweahkaweah on May 19, 2009 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agree and disagree

For example:
“He can trade Gio, Gallagher, or Outman for a 3B solution”, Um a 3rd base solution would be a young starter with a proven track record and upside. Anything else is more filler. The value of those three is falling fast.

but,

“he’s the only thing standing between us and the Royals(where one good start is huge news)” Here I agree only looking at the past. I am no longer so sure that is true looking towards the future.

Baja been here

by bajablue on May 19, 2009 9:24 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Your first point confuses me. Why would anything less than a “young starter with proven track record and upside” be the baseline? By this definition, Josh Vitters wouldn’t be a good target for Beane (when in fact he’s such a good target that we can’t really get him- Harden wasn’t enough).

Your second point also makes little sense. If you believe the future will be different from the (RECENT) past, you have to give a reason for why the change will occur. That’s the point of this diary. People are looking at the bad on-field product, and blaming the GM. In fact, the on-field product depends on hundreds of variables (luck, injuries etc.). I have seen very few of Beanes recent AN critics that are making arguments that LINK Beane’s mistakes to the current on-field problems. The only links I’ve seen are on the 3B issue (which I and Devo address above) and the possible prospect/scouting issue (which has been limited to speculation so far- not much evidence.)

by ohmangoAs on May 19, 2009 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It amazes me

how so many people seem to have just forgotten about how strong the A’s minor league system is. Just 6 months ago, everyone was raving about the minor league system. Not much has changed in that system. Yes Cahill/Anderson appear to have been rushed, and we lost some key players in the Holliday trade. But the stystem is still strong and deep, and we should still be looking ahead to the future.

"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT

by travdog6 on May 19, 2009 3:22 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

It's About Eric!

Billy’s commitment to Eric has screwed our infield. Bottom line. He has hung on to and INVESTED into a guy he liked. How often have we seen him punk a guy he does not, ala Carlos Pena. His ego exploded with Money Ball. It is time for William to “Show us the Money” or hang up his cleats.

by oldnavyfccs on May 19, 2009 9:52 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Chavez was worth the money at the time

and yeah, it turned out badly. Doesn’t mean Beane was wrong at the time of the contract offer.

by ohmangoAs on May 20, 2009 12:29 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Definitely

I know this debate has already happened, but people gotta remember that results are not always a good measure of judging a trade/signing etc.

"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT

by travdog6 on May 20, 2009 1:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Harden and Pena

I generally agree with your well articulated post. However, there were two deals that I really did not like at the time.

While everyone seemed to accept, reasonably enough, that Harden was a time bomb physically, the unbelievable upside when healthy seemed to me to be reason to keep him. If you could ever make the playoffs, you just might have the best pitcher in the league (or certainly a top 5 one.) We had him for cheap $ (Loaiza prices, if I recall correctly.) The return appeared to me then as pretty negligible, and it does today. Clearly there wasn’t a lot more out there for Harden, but if so, we should have kept him, in my opinion.

Secondly, I never liked losing Pena. I’ll admit that a lot of that had to do with my love for great fielding at first base (and that was based on watching his elegance, not on numbers.) But those were the trades that I really disliked at first sight.

The others have all seemed reasonable, if not entirely comprehensible (I’m still not sure that I understand the Holliday trade.)

Thanks for the good post.

by DiegoSegui on May 20, 2009 6:59 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

thanks!

On Harden, we’re not a playoff team, so 5 starts here and there from him make no difference this or last year. I feel really confident that Gallagher and/or Donaldson make an impact on the team over the next 7 years. Remember, it’s 1.5 years of Harden for 7 years of Donaldson, and 6 (I think) years of Gallagher.

I left Pena out because I wanted to stay focused on this rebuild (that why the Hudson/Mulder deals weren’t discussed, for example)

by ohmangoAs on May 20, 2009 8:42 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

reply phail.

This is directed to Diego.

by ohmangoAs on May 20, 2009 8:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, but

Harden actually started 25 games last year, and has already started 8 this year. It looks like he skipped a start or maybe 2 with the Cubs last year, but that’s it. So far, obviously. I think almost everyone on AN seemed to fill in the worst case scenario with Harden as the actual outcome, when it hasn’t been the case (as of yet.)

I hope you’re right about Gallagher/Donaldson.

by DiegoSegui on May 21, 2009 7:03 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Harden's health has surprised everyone

it would have been foolish for Billy to risk injury with Harden last year and wait even longer to trade him.

"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT

by travdog6 on May 21, 2009 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's still early in the season.

I’m betting than Rich is waiting for just the right moment to rip the heart out of Cubs fans.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on May 21, 2009 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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