Oakland's Trade Bait: Holliday
Alright, I'd like to start by saying that the season is less than 1/5th of the way over, and as poorly as the A's have played, Mark Ellis is set to return in 4 to 6 weeks, and Duchscherer is able to come off the DL June 4th and is rehabbing as a starter, as SuSlu reports. So there is help on the way.
I also find it hard to believe that Holliday's BABIP will continue to sit at .259 or that Giambi will continue to OPS just over .700, or that O-Cab will also continue to OPS a weak .543, because that's just ridiculous. We have good hitters on this team and I have faith that they will hit. Eventually those flyballs will start leaving the park at a normal rate.
But, because it's an off day and because off days are the bain of my existence, let's look at another scenario. Cue ominous music. I'll be looking at our trade bait, and possible scenarios that could come to be if the A's are out of the running come the deadline.
First up is Matt Holliday.
I find it difficult to believe that any A's fan realistically believes that he will stay in Oakland beyond this year, especially when it's already been made public that the Yankees want Holliday and Holliday wants the Yankees. It's like some sort of weird grade school crush...Do you like me? Check "Yes" or "No" or "Maybe".
There was, and still is, an awful lot of talk about how bad of a trade the Holliday trade was. For those of you that forgot, we gave up Carlos Gonzalez, Greg Smith, and Huston Street. Street has struggled. Smith hasn't pitched yet, but performed poorly in Spring. Patrol Craft, with his ocean of potential, is tearing the cover off the ball, albeit at Colorado Springs. No real surprises...pitchers struggling in Colorado, hitters doing well.
I don't really think any of them were huge losses. Street's alright, but he was inconsistent and expensive; Smith would be nice to have as a starter, but only because our starts aren't very good right now, and his stats were a lot better than his actual performance. Carlos Gonzalez is still a very valuable piece, even after struggling last year.
After looking at a few similar trades, it seems like our deal for Holliday is consistent with the other deals. One good prospect and then some pieces, which is exactly what Street and Smith were to us, and to Colorado.
Really, let's look at some deals that happened in similar scenarios.
Last Year's Manny/Bay Blockbuster.
Here's the deal on MLBTradeRumors. To recap,
- Red Sox gave up Manny (to LA), Brandon Moss (to Pit) and Craig Hansen (to Pit) and received Jason Bay (from Pit)
- Dodgers gave up Andy LaRoche (to Pit) and Bryan Morris (to Pit) for Manny Ramirez (from Bos)
- Pirates gave up Jason Bay (to Bos) for Moss (from Bos), Hansen (from Bos), LaRoche (from LA) and Morris (from LA)
Most A's fans probably do remember this somewhat because the A's were big players on Jason Bay at the time. Obviously, they instead traded Blanton and Harden away for prospects.
Anyways, you can kind of take Boston out of the picture because they essentially gave up Manny for Bay, pretty much because they had to do something with Manny because he was being the bad kind of Manny. The Dodgers now know something about that Bad Manny.
Basically, the Dodgers gave up Andy LaRoche and Bryan Morris for the Pirates, but the Pirates don't do the deal unless they get the pieces from Boston. And Boston gives up the extra pieces because Bay's contract didn't end at the end of the year. But, from the Pirates point of view, which is most similar to our point of view, they gave up Bay for Moss, Hansen, LaRoche and Morris.
LaRoche is the most important piece in the deal. He's underachieved on the MLB level, but sample size is still in effect as he's yet to play a full season over three years. He was on BA's top 100 every year between 2004 and 2008. This year he's OPSing .745 so he's getting there. Moss, Hansen, and Morris are those pieces I was talking about.
If that three-way trade was too confusing, here's another.
The Stupid Slegna Trade for Teixeira
Teixeira was entering his walk year and with the Braves struggling for what seems like the first time in the last gajillion years, they were looking to move Teixeira for prospects rather than draft picks. The Angels, who ended up on the outside looking in then Teixeira was traded to the Braves from Texas for a gold mine of prospects, finally won.
What made the deal stupid was the fact that the Angels were so far up in the standings and they included first baseman Casey Kotchman in the deal. Essentially, they traded a perfectly good first baseman under team control for a half year of a really good first baseman in a season where they really didn't need that much help.
As you well know, Teixeira walked at the end of the year, after the Angels were knocked out. Either way, it was a stupid deal for the Angels, but at the same time, it was consistent with similar deals for sluggers in their walk year at the deadline. Casey Kotchman was a good piece and the Braves also received minor league relief pitcher Steve Marek, good for some orginizational depth.
Sabathia to the Brewers
It became obvious last year that the Indians were not going to the playoffs and were not going to re-sign Sabathia, so they dealt him to the Brewers. At the time of the deal, Sabathia was 6-8 with an ERA of 3.83. After the deal, he put on a show, going 11-1 with a 1.65 ERA, hitting home runs, pitching every 4th day and taking the Crew to the playoffs.
The Indians received Matt LaPorta, Rob Bryson, Taylor Green and Zach Jackson, which is an awful lot of talent for half a season of a pitcher. LaPorta was a top 40 prospect, maybe even higher. The others don't really project to be stars, but all could be serviceable major leaguers.
Sabathia last year was worth 7.7 WAR, compared to Holliday's 6.2, but most of that came after the deal, so a deadline deal of Holliday could be quite similar to this. This is compared to Bay's 2.9 WAR (his fielding is awful) and Teixeira's 6.7 WAR. Teixeria's deal brought back an established good but not great major league hitter, while Sabathia's and Bay's brought back a top 40 prospect.
So basically, take your pick. Feel free to rosterbate. Discuss it below.
Here are some interesting names around the Top 40 (according to BA) for you to think about.
Eric Hosmer (24th overall) - Not performing very well so far this year, but a legit bat taken 3rd overall last year. The Royals may have finally found their niche and Greinke looks stellar. They're tied right now with the Tigers in the AL Central and if they hang around, they could be looking to go for it.
Fernando Martinez and Wilmer Flores (30th and 47th overall) - The Mets have been extremely reluctant to deal him so far, but he hasn't lived up to the hype. Kinda like Sulentic, I guess, in that he's young wherever he plays, and the potential is there, but it hasn't exploded like many have thought. Flores is a very young (turned 17 last year while playing in full season ball) and projectable shortstop who could develop and could flop, but again the potential is there. With Fernando Tatis and Daniel Murphy manning LF right now, the Mets could be looking to improve if the Marlins continue to nip at their asses.
Yonder Alonso (35th overall) - The Reds find themselves just 2.5 games out in a competitive NL Central and with a rotation of Harang, Volquez and Cueto and a good young core of players, they find themselves with a LF of Chris Dickerson and Jerry Hairston Jr. They'll be reluctant to move their 2008 first round pick but might have to when Holliday becomes available.
Austin Jackson and Jesus Montero (36th and 38th overall) - This could be a repeat of Manny's "tryout" last year with the Dodgers, when the Yankees decided to get him a half season early to compete in the ridiculous AL East. Jackson's got tools and represents a legit future CF and Montero may or may not stick at catcher but his bat is real. If he can stick at catcher, then he's pretty damn valuable and Beane would be happy to get him. And, if he can't catch, can he play 3rd?
Matt Dominguez (64th overall) - I find it hard to fathom the Marlins trading away young talent, but if they continue to compete, the Marlins are capable of anything, and with Chris Coghlan currently in LF, they could use an upgrade. Dominguez is young and far away, but is a very good 3B prospect.
Now, rosterbate!
6 recs |
96 comments
Comments
By the way, for the prospects I chose, I tried to look at the A's organizational needs
And chose teams that were most in need of a guy like Holliday. Interestingly enough, while the A’s don’t really need pitching prospects—well, not anymore than any other team—there were very few pitching prospects whose prospect status rivaled those of LaRoche’s LaPorta’s on team’s that needed a Holliday.
The A’s need hitters, and actually match up well with several teams.
by NateHST on May 11, 2009 1:31 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
On that - you think they could get involved in a three way with a team that might need young pitching?
thus to acquire a 3B / SS or similar?
It's never too soon to jump to conclusions
by alea iacta est on May 12, 2009 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
EVERY team needs young pitching.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on May 12, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My take
Hosmer: If the A’s are looking to trade with the Royals I’d much rather go after Moustakas than Hosmer.
FMart/Flores: I love, love, love Flores but he is very far away and probably won’t stick at SS. I like Flores as a second piece in a deal but he is just too risky to be the first piece. And he’s likely too talented for the Mets to give him up if he’s not the only good piece they’re giving up. I’ve never really liked FMart, because although I am a huge Sulentic fan, I’m not a big believer in a player’s only argument being ARL. Jefry Marte is another interesting name.
Alonso: When did he sign? Remember the A’s can only trade for a player signed at least a year ago (although a PTBNL could help things). And if you’re targeting needs, 1b can be covered by Barton/Doolittle/Carter or even one of the lesser A’s prospects like Donaldson or Spencer. The A’s really need a 3b. A SS would be nice too.
AJax/Montero: Again AJax does not really fill an A’s position of need. Sweeney is a league average option in CF for the foreseeable future. Plus, there’s Cunningham, Doolittle, Buck, Sulentic, and Brown in the upper majors. None are true CFers (save maybe Brown) but one could play it passably. And didn’t the A’s trade away a toolsy, good defense CF to get Holliday in the first place? Seems to defeat the whole purpose of the Holliday trade. As for Montero, absolutely no way he sticks at C. We’re talking the equivalent of putting Carter at 3b, here. Actually, no, more like Carter at SS.
Dominguez: Interesting name.
Overall:
Beane should wait to trade Holliday at least until July. He has the leverage. Last year, he caved into the pressure of praying against a Harden injury and dealt him when he should have waited. I’m very confident in Beane finding hidden gems in deals (Ellis, Donaldson, maybe Spencer) but he may be getting too clever for his own good. It’s been a long time since a fuckin’ A trade (probably since MB and Perez for Ethier), I want another. And if Holliday goes, I expect to see OCab gone and maybe Croz and Duke as well. No point in going halfway.
Still, like you, I’m optimistic. Giambi’s a slow starter and Holliday can be streaky. The A’s will break out. I’m hoping this is just another May slump year. Come summer, I expect to see the A’s winning like they used to.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on May 11, 2009 2:56 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I would rather have Moustakas as well
But BA has him ranked as #13 overall, which is out of range compared to the prospect pieces in most of the other deals.
Also, regarding Alonso, I understand that he would have to be a PTBNL, but I think his bat far surpasses what Barton’s or Doolittle’s and we don’t even know if Carter can handle first base yet. I’m also very skeptical about Spencer being anything more than AAAA. The power is there, but is anything else?
by NateHST on May 11, 2009 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Getting MB was a fuckin' A trade??
I love Milton, but I think we lost that deal. Ethier’s been great and cheap for the Dodgers. We got one useful year out of Milton, and you could argue Ethier was better even that year.
I think Haren (+ Street) for Holliday, Anderson, Eveland, Carter, and Cunningham could wind up being a fucking A trade.
by swatnick on May 12, 2009 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The whole point of that trade was to go to the playoffs.
Because of that trade, we went to the ALCS in 2006.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on May 12, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ethier was better
and healthier in 2006 (his OPS+ was 118 to MB’s 114). It was a weird season (I think the A’s were outscored for the first 2/3 of the season), but you could argue we would have made the playoffs with Ethier as well. I thought it was a good trade at the time, but it’s most definitely not a “fucking A” trade, which is a trade that the other team regrets to the point they say “fucking A.” In fact, the A’s quite clearly lost the trade.
by swatnick on May 12, 2009 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Incorrect definition.
From Moneyball:
By the middle of June, six weeks before the trading deadline, he was walking into Paul DePodesta’s office across the hall from his own and saying, "This is the time to make a fucking A trade." When asked what was meant by a "Fucking A trade," he said, "A Fucking A trade is one that causes everyone else in the business to say ‘Fucking A’."
Whether the other team regrets it, or even whether the A’s “won” the trade, is not part of what defines a trade’s Fucking-A-ness.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on May 12, 2009 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In process
Trading a prospect of Ethier’s stature for a player of Milton Bradley’s ability and service time is the epitome of a fucking A trade. That we even got a solid bench bat as well is amazing. That Ethier turned into what he is besides the point. Credit Logan White (or less likely Coletti). White saw something most people did not or he got lucky. If I was a GM, I’d make that Bradley trade every time and I imagine Beane would too. Then again, Bradley’s DFA was one of the stupidest things I’ve ever seen the A’s do. I don’t care what went on behind the scenes, don’t DFA MB, trade him while actually having leverage.
The Haren trade was IMO a perfect trade. Both sides are perfectly happy with the trade and would do it over again. A both benefit transaction is the best transaction. Still, I’m greedy. I want the A’s to maximize their resources. Which is why even if the A’s think a trade of Harden for Gallagher or Hudson for Meyer straight up is equal value it isn’t a good trade. The A’s aren’t fully cashing in their chips.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on May 12, 2009 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I'm misreading the market for Bradley...
but I don’t think it was one of those trades that made everyone in the baseball industry go “Fucking A.” Stupid or not, there was very little interest in Bradley. Our original offer was Kirk Saarloos (which, if you’re to believe media reports, was actually pretty close to happening). THAT would have been a Fucking A trade. Trading a solid, cost-controlled prospect for a mercurial, oft-injured and soon to be expensive outfielder with few other suitors is pretty much fair value. Even on AN I don’t remember people thinking the A’s stole Milton Bradley at the time.
The Haren trade isn’t a Fucking A trade now, but all I said was it could become a fucking A trade in hindsight. If you’re not talking hindsight, then I guess Mulder for Barton-Haren-Calero isn’t a Fucking A trade either, as people within the industry (and on AN) were pretty split on who won that. If a Fucking A trade was a trade where people in the industry IMMEDIATELY thought the trade was a clear win for the A’s, the only ones I can think of were Durham, Foulke, Damon-Lidle-Ellis, Dye, Isringhausen…I’m sure I’m missing a few.
Also, if this counts, Cust for cash considerations is a pretty good candidate of a recent Fucking A trade.
But now i guess we’re getting into semantics on what a F-in’ A trade means. I gotta get to work though so I’m signing off for good on this argument.
by swatnick on May 12, 2009 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
If it was Bradley for Saarloos as originally rumoured then I would have been as happy as a sandboy. We didn’t really need to give up Ethier and while I was very glad to have Bradley, at the time I was not happy about giving up Ethier.
by DeJay on May 13, 2009 2:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only reason people are complaining is because Travis Buck has been hurt so much.
Nobody was saying a damn thing about losing Ethier while Buck was crushing the ball as a rookie.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on May 13, 2009 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
Actually I complained at the time because I thought Ethier was too much to give up. For sure having Buck softened the blow a little, but even then I would rather have had Ethier and Buck than Buck, Saarloos and Perez. Buck getting injured had nothing to do with why I didn’t like the trade.
by DeJay on May 14, 2009 1:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
if hosmer is included in a trade this year
he’ll have to be the infamous “player to be named later” b/c he has less than 1 yr of professional service time.
by ArielPrieto on May 11, 2009 6:51 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Not if he's traded at the deadline, if I'm right.
It’s 1 year since signing. I’m pretty sure if he were to be traded at the deadline, he wouldn’t have to be a PTBNL.
I might be wrong though.
"And you just don't get it, you keep it copacetic..."
by Blicks on May 12, 2009 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tricky one with Hosmer
Considering the whole Alvarez contract issue – not sure if that would effect anything. Either way it wouldn’t make much difference if he had to be a PTBNL for a few weeks. Not that the Royals would trade him though.
by DeJay on May 13, 2009 2:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hosmer still signed at the deadline though.
Despite all the talk, the original contract still stood.
"And you just don't get it, you keep it copacetic..."
by Blicks on May 13, 2009 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought for a long time about adding him to the list but was reluctant to do it.
I love him. I want him in the Oakland organization. I wish we had him instead of Jemile Weeks, even if he can only stick at 3rd for a couple of years.
But it would likely take Holliday to get him instead of Giambi or Ellis or whoever else, and I couldn’t figure out any way to make the Cardinals trading partners. The Cards right now have Ankiel, Ludwick, Rasmus and Chris Duncan in their outfield. Unless they want to move Rasmus back to AAA, to which I really don’t see the point, their outfield is crowded and good. Holliday just doesn’t fit.
by NateHST on May 11, 2009 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Take Ankiel back.
I don’t think he’s getting resigned anyway, and he’s a better defensive CF than Sweeney is anyway.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on May 11, 2009 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not so sure about that.
Ankiel’s bat is certainly better right now. But his career UZR/150 is -7.3 compared to Sweeney’s -2.5. But why would we take back Ankiel if he’s going to walk after this year? If we’re trading Holliday, we’re obviously not looking to compete, and I think this defeats the purpose.
by NateHST on May 11, 2009 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who else do you plan on breaking down as trade bait?
Giambi
O-Cab
Ellis
Crosby seems like he is starting to show signs of value and may fetch us a bullpen arm?
"Where's the beef?"
by MMunoz33 on May 11, 2009 7:26 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm starting to lose confidence in "Moneyball"
When I see other teams manufacture runs and put together good at bats that get the count in their favor, I think to myself “why don’t we play like this?”
Why can’t we put on squeezes and hit and runs with Holliday and O-Cab?
I think we need a pure leadoff hitter and Sweeney seems better fit for the 6th hole…
Let’s hope Beane gets something done, because this recipe isn’t working.
To Geren’s credit the injuries are “somewhat” of an acceptabe excuse to use, but his leash needs to be short. He seems like he has no personality and at least Lou Pinella and etc. will put a fire in his players .
"Where's the beef?"
by MMunoz33 on May 11, 2009 7:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another A's fan that doesn't understand what moneyball is...
sigh.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
by brenarlo on May 11, 2009 7:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand what moneybal is;
I’m asking if it is time for change of approach?
"Where's the beef?"
by MMunoz33 on May 11, 2009 8:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moneyball isn't an approach to baseball as it's played on the field...
it’s the concept of finding whatever skills are undervalued in the market and acquiring those skills at pennies on the dollar.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
by brenarlo on May 11, 2009 8:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's keep this simple;
I want to fire Bob Geren…
"Where's the beef?"
by MMunoz33 on May 11, 2009 8:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree
geren’s hitting w/ risp has been horrible. plus, he walks too many guys when he starts.
by inbillywetrust on May 11, 2009 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not so much his on the field performance
as much as his “cancer in the clubhouse.” It’s all about Bob. Enough with this “me-first” management style.
Define "succeed." --Poppy
by Leopold Bloom on May 11, 2009 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
A good synonym for Moneyball is “strategy” – not “OBP”.
Anyone want to argue that a team on limited resources shouldn’t have a strategy?
Do you know the way to San Jose?
by eastcoasta'sfan on May 12, 2009 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
sadly
our strategy has been failing us recently… we went to defense, then aging star, to selling off most valuable assets… I think his point is that we have had two losing seasons, and might be in for our third. We have lots of youngsters who I have high hopes for, but Im not sure it looks like the tide is turning.
"If people don't know who he is, they'd better turn on the television and check him out."
by jacobo2u on May 12, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
strategy is kind of cool, but if you don’t execute, it does no good.
Do you know the way to San Jose?
by eastcoasta'sfan on May 12, 2009 8:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you're worried about other teams performing better
It’s not the system of getting on base and hitting homeruns that’s broken, it’s the players in system being either bad, old or Bobby Crosby.
by NateHST on May 11, 2009 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, you are indeed correct.
"Where's the beef?"
by MMunoz33 on May 11, 2009 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holliday wouldn't fetch us anything right now...
If he continues to struggle this year, I’d keep him… let him walk… and take the draft picks (assuming he’s still be a type A free agent).
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
by brenarlo on May 11, 2009 7:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Draft picks are too risky
And Holliday is a helluva trade piece whether he’s sucking right now or not. No other GM looks at him and says, “Hmm. I think those last four years were flukes. This half season says he’s terrible and I don’t want him.” GMs are intelligent, they know if the talent was there. If Barton were put on the trading block right now, I bet nearly every team would be interested.
by NateHST on May 11, 2009 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're talking about a team that would sign him long term.
I’m talking about a team (Cardinals, Royals, Tigers, etc..) that might want a bat for the rest of this year but would also have no intention of signing them long term. For those teams, this season matters… of course it does. If they’re ice cold this year, they could very well be ice cold the entire year. It doesn’t mean they’ll be ice cold for a 7 year deal he may get.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
by brenarlo on May 11, 2009 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it's the same situation.
If a GM didn’t think he was a good player, why trade for him? If a GM didn’t think he was a good player, why sign him? But the thing is, every GM knows Holliday is a good player and that’s why he’ll always have good trade value. GMs understand flukes and slow starts. You could add Holliday to any lineup right now and he would make it better.
by NateHST on May 11, 2009 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying that no one would want him...
but I am saying that they would be much more reluctant to trade one of their top prospects for him.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
by brenarlo on May 11, 2009 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think if any team had the option of getting Holliday
and making a run at the playoffs, they would gladly part with a top 50ish prospect.
by NateHST on May 11, 2009 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The way Holliday is playing right now...
maybe the A’s can afford to resign him!
by LoneStranger on May 11, 2009 9:25 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Now just convince Boras and him to sign the contract!
"Where's the beef?"
by MMunoz33 on May 11, 2009 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boras would come up with lots of charts and graphs
about how the Coliseum was bringing Holliday down, I’m sure.
by LoneStranger on May 11, 2009 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait and see mode
Most of those prospects don’t appeal to me but its still to early to think trade. The A’s need a SS or 3b or more starting pitching. Don’t rule out the Giants even with Sabean there. How about the angels if the A’s are out of it around July? Brandon wood + starting pitching and a outfield prospect? The Brewers have a young ss.
by Arcman on May 11, 2009 9:25 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The Brewers do have a good young SS
But JJ Hardy’s contract is nearing its end and Escobar will likely replace him when it does.
The reason I didn’t include Angel Villalona of the Giants is because at this point in that division, I don’t even think Sabean would make a trade like that. The Dodgers are heads and tails, even without Manny, above the rest of the division. But he’s certainly an interesting name.
I can see Sabean trying to sign him to the huge deal he’ll get at the end of the season, but I don’t think he’ll want to give up a known hitter like Villalona rather than just the draft picks they’ll lose when he reaches FA.
by NateHST on May 11, 2009 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Draft picks
I’d much rather we trade Holliday than just wait for the draft picks. The simple reasoning behind this is that we could get completely screwed like the Blue Jays did when the Yankees signed Burnett and Toronto didn’t get a 1st round pick in return. With a trade you can obviously control what you’re getting in return whereas with the draft picks you might not even get a top pick.
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on May 11, 2009 10:17 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree
I think the draft is too risky. Getting a known prospect rather than two unknown draft picks is a much better way to go, IMO.
by NateHST on May 11, 2009 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it depends on how Holliday does and what teams would be willing to give up for him.
Prospects would be ready for The Show sooner than draft picks would be, but if you aren’t getting much for him at the deadline, just take the picks.
That is, of course, if Holliday is even performing well enough to be a Type A/B.
by LoneStranger on May 11, 2009 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The compensation picks
Are based on more than just this year and the performance is based on strange things. Holliday will almost certainly be a Type A.
by NateHST on May 11, 2009 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Last year
Holliday was the top or second highest Type A. That means we couldn’t get screwed. Of course, this season is replacing his monster ‘07, so now he won’t be as high ranked.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on May 11, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
SS or 3B
Give me No offense, A-/B+ Glove at Shortstop, and an B+/A- hitter + Decent Glove at the Hot-Corner. There just aren’t enough studs at the SS position who can hit and field the position (JJ Hardy?). Cost way too much.
- Trade pitching (Gio, Mazzaro, or Gallagher) for Brett Wallace – Cards (3B)?
- Trade Holliday to the Mets for Reese Havens (SS) + A real upside guy (Martinez or Flores)
by Colorado Fan on May 11, 2009 12:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That sounds like the title of an essay by Simone de Beauvoir
“Le bain de ma existence”
(Too bad the ones who would most appreciate that don’t read trade threads. And I think 74mk spends most of his time at that new bar, now.)
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on May 11, 2009 12:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I appreciate that
and I’m reading. just saying.
I’d make a joke, but my brain hasn’t started working yet
It's never too soon to jump to conclusions
by alea iacta est on May 12, 2009 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The bath of my existence?
Do you know the way to San Jose?
by eastcoasta'sfan on May 12, 2009 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I was thinking bathROOM, but yeah
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on May 12, 2009 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's rosterbate.
How do you guys view Buster Posey? If the Giants are right there would they make deal for Holliday with Posey as the center piece?
by Pucking Insane on May 11, 2009 1:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't think the Giants woud consider it for even one second
by OaklandSi on May 11, 2009 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you Pucking Insane?
wait, nevermind.
No, they wouldn’t do that. They’ve got too much invested in him being the Catcher of the Future that we’d have to give up too much to get him.
And anyway, what else do they have that we’d want? Do we even want Posey?
by LoneStranger on May 11, 2009 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why wouldn't we want Posey?
He’s an elite prospect at a premium position. Of course we want him, just like we want him and all their other top prospects.
by NateHST on May 11, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess what I meant to say is that we have greater concerns than catcher right now.
I guess I do have to agree that elite prospects from any position would be awesome to have.
by LoneStranger on May 11, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm cool with K. Suzuki catching for us A's fans the next several years myself
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
by mrod on May 11, 2009 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's still a prospect in single-A.
I find it curiously funny that you can come off with such a sense of arrogance about the situation, when again, he is still a prospect in single A.
Now Holliday’s performance this season leaves something to be desired and may affect his return, but nevertheless I don’t see it as completely improbable.
by Pucking Insane on May 11, 2009 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's in Single-A right now, but I think he may be in AAA by the end of the season.
I was surprised that they started him in Single-A, but it may be temperature related.
by LoneStranger on May 11, 2009 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if you were talking about my arrogance, I didn't mean to sound that way.
We have a young catcher that we like in Suzuki who is already in The Show, so we don’t really need Posey, unless we just want to stockpile talent for later. The way the team is playing, we kinda need talent that can perform in the majors now.
by LoneStranger on May 11, 2009 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree on the value of Posey, but
I look at supposed other top prospects over the last couple of years. Upton (Justin), Maybin, Young. Do you think each of those clubs would saw them for a player of Holliday’s caliber if they were in contention?
The A’s have a very valuable asset in Holliday, and how they “expense” him will be essential to their future success.
by Pucking Insane on May 11, 2009 9:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Posey and Villalona are most certainly off the table...period
Your 2009 Oakland Athetics: This time, it's personal.
by Kallus on May 11, 2009 9:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure they would trade him for Pujols, let alone Holliday...
Never, Never, NEVER give up
by hero66 on May 12, 2009 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why not deal with the Giants?
Get a combo of :
- Alderson or Villanova + Ishikawa + Sanchez / Lowry for Holliday…..
Would make sense for both teams….Giants need to push now that the Dodgers are reeling and need a good power bat in the lineup that is familiar with the NLWest… A’s, we;;, just need just about everything right now….
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Joe Morgan's going to think Beane wrote the movie too..." -whitshoes40
"What am I going to do, seriously? Maybe be a bouncer at strip joints. That's about all I'm qualified to do." -Giambi
by ST on May 11, 2009 2:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That's a lot
As I’ve said before, in that division, trading for Holliday this year doesn’t make a lot of sense. Wouldn’t signing him after the season and giving up a couple of draft picks be a safer bet than giving up those good prospects?
by NateHST on May 11, 2009 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
With the division up in the air...
why not take the chance now, while it is wide open? Alderson and Villanova are still a couple of years down the road. Travis I. is struggling now and with Posey coming up fast and Sandoval tearing it up it will probably push him off of 1st base. Sanchez / Lowry are just really back end rotation starters waiting to get filled with the likes of Bumgarner / Alderson anyways. Again, look what the Giants would get:
Holliday….Right hand power bat, familiarity with NLWest, and if they don’t resign him…2 automatic picks. Besides, unlike the A’s, they can afford to sign him (witness the Manny ordeal through the winter)…
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Joe Morgan's going to think Beane wrote the movie too..." -whitshoes40
"What am I going to do, seriously? Maybe be a bouncer at strip joints. That's about all I'm qualified to do." -Giambi
by ST on May 11, 2009 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand what you're trying to say
But a top prospect, a decent first baseman, and a cheap fifth starter > two draft picks of unknown position. Also, I think even though Manny is out for a while, the NL West is still far from “wide open.” The Dodgers still have Loney, Hudson, Furcal, Blake, Kemp, Ethier and Martin as every day position players… and a pretty good rotation and bullpen. The Dodgers are a good ball team with or without Manny. The Giants are still not that good with or without Holliday.
by NateHST on May 11, 2009 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
While I agree on your..
assessment of the Dodgers, I think the Giants have a pitching staff that can outlast them for the Division crown….Lincecum, Johnson, Cain, Zito, and Sanchez all have the stuff of #1 starters (well at least the first 4)…With Zito recently pitching like his former-Athletic self of late, and a much improved bullpen, the Giant’s seem to have stolen the A’s formula for success in the past: Pitching and Defense first…with some offense sprinkled here and there. With also a week division schedule sprinkled full of D-Backs, Padres, and Rockies, the wild card isn’t far out of reach either…
If I’m Sabean, trying to win over my new boss to secure a new contract for the future, I would go all in now, while he can. There’s no guarantee that they can keep Cain and Lincecum together, Johnson is on his last legs, and good-Zito may revert to bad-Zito at any moment. I would liken this decision to our Eithier for Bradley trade to win now, while the cards are in their favor. JMHO…
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Joe Morgan's going to think Beane wrote the movie too..." -whitshoes40
"What am I going to do, seriously? Maybe be a bouncer at strip joints. That's about all I'm qualified to do." -Giambi
by ST on May 11, 2009 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Posey is pretty much untouchable
I’ve beeen reading that he is going to move very quickly through the system.
The Giants single-A team is doing quite well. There may be other players worth looking at.
by OaklandSi on May 11, 2009 3:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes..
Bumgarner is untouchable as well and i would assume Sandoval since he’s doing good in the Majors thus far….hence that’s why i had Alderson or Villanova (doubt would do both) along with the shaky, but with high upside Travis I. and the injured Lowry, who could be very serviceable in the future after recovery, or J. Sanchez if Beane insists…
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
"Joe Morgan's going to think Beane wrote the movie too..." -whitshoes40
"What am I going to do, seriously? Maybe be a bouncer at strip joints. That's about all I'm qualified to do." -Giambi
by ST on May 11, 2009 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't trade with them if you don't get what you want. Posey or Bum must be there!
by calas on May 11, 2009 8:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's Villalona, not Villanova, and he would not be available
Ishikawa is a half foot taller than Barton, fields half as well, and can’t hit as well as Barton. He’s only in the bigs because the Giants have no one else to play there (with Sandoval playing third and Aurilia too old to play every day). Posey is about as available as Lincecum (it’s an exaggeration, but not by as much as you think). Giants fans are already counting down the days till he’s in the bigs. So that leaves Sanchez or maybe Alderson, but is pitching really the most pressing need? (yes, i know way too many giants fans)
Your 2009 Oakland Athetics: This time, it's personal.
by Kallus on May 11, 2009 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
NIce analysis.
I’ve been thinking about Flores and F-Mart for a while, and had suggested them in an earlier fAnPoSt. F-Mart may be busting out this year—an .834 OPS in AAA as a 20-year-old is good stuff, and he has monster projectable power in a position that is organizationally weak, unless you think some of the 1B/DH types can really stick in the outfield.
Flores is a gamble, but what’s not to like about a .842 OPS In 265 rookie league PAs…as a 16-year-old?
Anyway, I like a package that includes them bunches. I hope Holliday can drive up his value between now and July so we can get a bidding war going.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on May 11, 2009 9:35 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Great analysis.
1. I strongly, strongly prefer Moustakas to Hosmer. More likely to stick on the left side of the infield as opposed to the right.
2. Flores and FMart are awesome. I prefer Flores simply because he’s a SS.
However, I really really think the Mets are going to be searching for pitching at the deadline. Omar made a massive boo boo by signing Oliver Perez (seriously? 36MM when Wolf got 4MM). I don’t think a rotation of Johan-Pelfrey-Maine-Ollie-Livan holds up for long; I just don’t see Ollie being able to even be league average this year, with all the concerns about his conditioning.
3. How about the Cubs when Milton Bradley gets hurt and misses a large portion of the season? Some package built around Vitters would be nice. Although, if Duke’s rehab goes well and he’s back as an SP, I could see Duke to the Cubs far before I could see Holliday to the Cubs because that team has some serious pitching depth issues.
"And you just don't get it, you keep it copacetic..."
by Blicks on May 12, 2009 3:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd love to have Vitters
But the A’s have a whole bunch of outfielders. Bradley is a much better hitter than he’s showing now, Fukudome, Reed Johnson, and Alfonso is pretty much a fixture in LF. Neither Holliday or Soriano are really suited for RF, but the Cubs thought Bradley was capable of playing RF for a season, so it’s possible.
by NateHST on May 12, 2009 7:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Vitters is a 3rd baseman, isn't he?
One that, at this point, is looking like he won’t ever hit for power…
Never, Never, NEVER give up
by hero66 on May 12, 2009 10:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
He's like 20.
I think he’s got some time.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on May 13, 2009 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fun with prospects
A bit of humorous analysis here
Vitters put on a spectacular display of power during the Showcase, but his high school numbers were extremely ordinary, but those numbers were clearly influenced by his battle with pneumonia.
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball." - Connie Mack
by GoA's on May 13, 2009 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about Holliday for Escobar and a prospect?
http://6pound8ouncebabyjoba.blogspot.com/2009/05/thinking-about-deadline.html
If we’re out of it by the deadline and can flip Cabrera too for something, I wouldn’t mind this at all.
by Pino on May 15, 2009 1:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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