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A differing perspective on the new Yankee Stadium

As an East Bay native who moved to New York City only 19 months ago for a new job, I have read with interest some recent conversation on this site about the new Yankee Stadium and am very glad that those who have had the chance to attend a game there have seemed to enjoy the place. I attended my first game there this past Tuesday night for the first game of the rain-abbreviated two-game set between the A's and Yankees. I feel compelled to respectfully share another perspective on the new Yankee Stadium, however, which is being quietly but widely panned here in New York and which, after its first homestand, is bordering on being labeled a failure and waste of money by the real locals who have lived here their entire lives, rooted for the Yanks since their childhoods and who are dismayed that the place was clearly not built with them in mind.

Star-divide

Now, I have a bias for things that are old, and obviously you can’t hold the new stadium's "newness" against it. And one's man's class is another man's foolish excess and to each his or her own. But I have sensed a sort of embarrassment among some Yankee die-hards over everything the new place has come to represent. One colleague of mine, for example, who had season tickets in the top deck of the old stadium behind the plate for more than two decades, was booted to new seats down the left field line because he couldn't afford the full season at the new prices the team was charging. Another colleague spent over $70 a piece on two tickets to the new stadium's second regular season game and ended up with seats in the second level underneath an overhang that hung so low no fly balls were visible. He says he was informed such obstructed views are why there are flat screen televisions literally everywhere you turn around. Again, one man's foolish excess is another man's class, but I find all the TV's (my first visit was last Tuesday night) wholly annoying.

A column in this morning's New York Times by one of the finest sports writers in the country, Harvey Araton, effectively sums up the feelings about the place of many New Yorkers: www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/sports/baseball/26araton.html?ref=sports

As for me, I was very turned off by just how much concrete went into constructing the place, and the fact that there seemed to be no real effort at architectural ingenuity. It is big, indeed - no denying that. But I also found it to be cold and uninviting and simply lacking any charm. The real Yankee fans are largely banished to the top edges of the place, and if there was little chance that a kid growing up in the same Bronx neighborhood that houses the stadium would ever be able to afford a ticket inside the old place, well, there is zero chance of that happening in the new one. Araton is right in my opinion to call it a "monument to excess" and to highlight the fact that the thousands of unpurchased and grossly overpriced seats  will be a "continuous and televised reminder of a grand and greedy overreach."

I respect very much Red Sox President Larry Lucchino who says his organization's decision not to tear down Fenway but rather to put time and resources into improving and restoring it was rooted in a sense that there was no need to create an eighth wonder of the world, that there is in fact something timeless and soulful about simply "preserving a nice, little old ballpark."

The collapse of our nation's economy has wreaked devastating hardship on so many Americans. But it also has served as a very hard lesson to all of us about just how empty and ultimately destructive a rush to collect material wealth - simply for the sake of being able to lay claim to "fancy stuff" - really can be. It is nothing short of heartbreaking to me that for the blue collar, hard-scrabble New Yorkers that comprise the heart of the Yankee fan base, the new stadium that will house their beloved team will be little more than a perpetual reminder of that lesson.

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It looks great but I know exactly what you mean

Just look at the $2500 seats that are empty. Look at the TVs they have to have by that center field cafe or whatever just so people sitting in that area can actually see what happens when a ball goes to the other side of where they are.

All the old photos around the stadium are nice, but I doubt it makes up for not being able to actually see everything at all times without having to look at a TV.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Apr 25, 2009 8:53 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Irony
It is nothing short of heartbreaking to me that for the blue collar, hard-scrabble New Yorkers that comprise the heart of the Yankee fan base, the new stadium that will house their beloved team will be little more than a perpetual reminder of that lesson.

On the other hand, the reason the Yankees are the Yankees is that they are in a position to cash in on all the money available to them, and then spend that money on the most expensive roster in American sports.

God knows I sympathize with the kind of “I’ve been a Yankees fan since Joe Peptione” guys who call in to WFAN, but the reason their team dominates is that NYC is a place where a baseball team can generate huge revenues from its own network (YES) and can sell ridiculously expensive seats to ridiculously wealthy city residents. This sort of thing kinda comes with the territory, as far as I can tell.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Apr 25, 2009 9:05 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I have never been to either the old or new stadiums, but...

…what you say is, unfortunately, too much of a trend almost everywhere. The “real” fans are largely shut out, but there’s enough ‘non-fans’ to pay the money and make up the difference, and that’s what it’s really all about… money.

Sometimes I question myself over exactly why I am a fan of a game that… from my point of view… doesn’t give a damn about me in return.

I could prove God statistically. Take the human body alone - the chances that all the functions of an individual would just happen is a statistical monstrosity.
~George Gallup

by UncleLeo on Apr 25, 2009 9:35 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

When I was buying

$80 tickets to sit in the second deck from the top, I remember thinking how pissed off I’d be if I were a Yankees fan.

"We are a complete freak show." -- Billy Beane

by day-to-day on Apr 25, 2009 10:59 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

When I lived in downtown Toronto

I remember bumping into some yankee fans who were visiting from NY to watch the Yanks play. They basically told me that it was just easier for them to pay the expense to come to Toronto, stay in Toronto, and go to the game there than it was for them to go to games in NY. I imagine this will be the case for a few more.

More Rajai Davis & less mount Davis

by Athletics fan and runner on Apr 26, 2009 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've been to the old Yankee Stadium a number of times, and I've always been surrounded

by longtime fans and new fans, mostly Yankee fans but a few non-Yankee fans. One thing they had in common was that they were baseball fans or they came with baseball fans. I’ve sat in the upper deck, lower deck and bleachers and never met anyone who was there as part of a corporate day out or marketing trip.

The old stadium was expensive by MLB standards — certainly a lot more expensive than St Louis — but New Yorkers are used to higher costs and real fans still went in droves. The prices I’m hearing about at this new place are clearly not designed to attract individuals, rather to attract those on expense accounts who view the seats as a marketing expense.

I don’t buy that this is a sound long-term strategy. At some point, targets of said marketing aren’t going to care enough about the Yankees to value attending a game.

I can also envision a scenario whereby a third team is placed into the NY market and peels away “real fans” from the Yankees. NY is a highly vibrant city with lots of new residents. Just as the Mets were able to attract a lot of new fans in the 1960s and 1980s, as did the Yankees in the 1990s, a third team in New York (Brooklyn, Upper Manhattan) has an excellent opportunity to thrive from well-heeled real fans in the next decade.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Apr 26, 2009 8:30 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I'd be very surprised if the NYC area got a third team that took a significant number of fans away from the Yankees

Maybe it’d work with some of the younger people who haven’t been fans for a long time but for those who have and who have been immersed in Yankee history for so long…maybe they can’t afford to go to a bunch of games in the new corporate monstrosity, but I’d figure they’d still remain diehard Yankee fans.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Apr 26, 2009 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No question about it

And that’s what makes the whole thing so truly heartbreaking. The people that are getting marginalized at best or shut out at worst would never, ever abandon their team. The love for baseball – and for the Yankees in particular – in this city is unlike anything I’ve ever seen. It’s incredible. From my experience – which I admit is somewhat limted as I’ve only lived here for 19 months – being a die-hard Yankee fan is one of the primary aspects of folks’ identity. There may be things they don’t like about the organization, but they’ll never vocalize that outwardly. And their love of the team and the game runs so deep that that they’ll accept pretty much anything without blinking an eye. There is just nothing that could turn off the love.

I hated the Yankees when I moved here, but after getting to know a handful of Yankee lifers, I couldn’t help but have a real respect for them because of the fans they could lay claim to. This new stadium, however, makes it really easy for an outsider like me to once again hold the team in utter contempt. The fans’ love of the team might prevent them from really complaining too much, but I have nothing holding me back.

by EastVillageA on Apr 26, 2009 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I grew up in NY

Fans are either diehard Yankee fans or diehard Mets fans — never, ever both. The Mets fans were born when the Mets were created to make up for the departure of the Dodgers and the Giants. NY Giants and Brooklyn Dodger fans were bitter rivals, but both united when their broken hearts were mended with the arrival of the “amazin’s”…As bad as that team was the fans dearly loved and supported them…we really had fun in the stands even before they started winning.

I’ve been reading some speculation that since the Mets new park is way more affordable than the Yankees new park (although to be sure, also not cheap!) that it may create a new generation of NY baseball fans that will gravitate more towards the Mets.

by OaklandSi on Apr 26, 2009 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for this perspective

I bought a 15 game plan for the Mets this year and but haven’t gotten out there yet. But from what I’ve been told and have read, the Mets really went out of their way to infuse the place with history and so there is a lot more charm to that place. We’ll see I guess…

by EastVillageA on Apr 26, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mets fans seem to be pissed, however

that the history at Bailout Field has almost nothing to do with the Mets. There’s evidently not a whole lot of really prominent celebration of 1969 or 1986, which some Mets fans seem to be taking as a slight (not that its hard to get them to feel that way).

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Apr 26, 2009 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Keep in mind, though, that the Mets claimed ownership

of the city’s NL history, that is, that of the Brooklyn Dodgers and New York Giants. (The LA Dodgers and SF Giants may beg to differ, but that’s what the Mets have done in NY — I remember it quite well.)

But if they’re not giving proper due to 1969 and 1986 (as well as some other special moments in NY Mets history) that’s disappointing.

by OaklandSi on Apr 26, 2009 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I suppose the Wilpons feel that way

but I’ve never gotten the impression that your average Mets fan is a big Dodgers or Giants nostalgist.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Apr 26, 2009 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

what I meant was

The Mets were created in the early 1960’s with a direct appeal to be the inheritors of the two NL clubs that were much loved but had just been taken away. This was before Wilpon bought the team. Mets fans in the 1960’s were encouraged to see New Yorks’ NL legacy as their own….and it was a very successful marketing strategy.

Just one of many memories: I remember a ’salute to Willie Mays Night" in Shea Stadium when the SF Giants were visiting. Mays was still a Giant (he had not yet been traded to the Mets). But the tone of the event, the statements made about Willie, and the reaction of the fans clearly claimed him as a New York hero. There was no acknowledgement in that ceremony that he was a San Francisco player. The closest that the announcer came was to say (as the fans were cheering and Willie was basking in the adoration), “They love you, Willie! They could only love you more if you were a New York Met” (mass delirium in the stands).

by OaklandSi on Apr 26, 2009 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good job and interesting report

I took a tour of Yankee Stadium in 2002, but I could not afford a game while I was back in NYC for a 2002 “roots tour” (100-yr anniv. of gramps arrival at Ellis Island). I like your report on the new stadium. Your criticisms on “too much concrete” and “can’t see fly balls” are in alignment with my philosophy about stadiums: I find the outcome of a BILLION-dollar-plus stadium to harbor such characteristics, one-hundred percent inexcusable. It’s like designing an automobile, putting it into production, only to find (1) paint washes off and (2) no reverse gear.

'I never predict anything, and I never will.' Paul Gascoigne, footballer

by One won lost won on Apr 26, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Totally agree.

Back in the day, when stadiums were built haphazardly with usually limited private money, you could excuse some obstructed views, quirks, etc. Today, with the amount of time and engineering and money put into these places, there is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for even a single seat with an obstructed view.

I could prove God statistically. Take the human body alone - the chances that all the functions of an individual would just happen is a statistical monstrosity.
~George Gallup

by UncleLeo on Apr 26, 2009 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You just described my '93 Taurus

"The glass is half full….and we are going to drown in it." - OptimistPrime

by doctorK on Apr 27, 2009 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No way NYC area will get a 3rd team

NYC won’t get a 3rd team, if for no other reason—the cost of building yet another stadium. A “cheap” stadium is going to cost at least $500 Million, and New Yorkers are still mad at spending for the current two.

by WooIsMe on Apr 26, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's probably true for the moment, but 5 years from now? 10 years from now?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Apr 27, 2009 6:01 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe NY could support a third team, but...

…I believe they will not get a third team due to existing territory issues.

Not really similar to the local situation as both bay area teams are already here right now, and territories are more lines on paper than in real life. One could argue the Orioles/Expos/Nationals situation as a better parallel, but I see that as more of an aberration.

I could prove God statistically. Take the human body alone - the chances that all the functions of an individual would just happen is a statistical monstrosity.
~George Gallup

by UncleLeo on Apr 27, 2009 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ya but they both pay big bucks in revenue sharing. If they got to stop doing that they

might agree. Also territory issues are revocable by MLB. If enough owners want to do it it will be done.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Apr 27, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

from what I've read in various places it appears

that the SF Bay Area is the only region that has some specific territorial limitation for its MLB teams — and that appears only to have been agreed on in the early 1990’s when the Giants were trying to get a stadium built in Santa Clara county.

by OaklandSi on Apr 27, 2009 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

by the way, I linked to a research article

on the territorial rights issue a couple of months ago. Here’s a bit from that article:

In December 1994, after failed attempts by the Giants to build in San Jose, MLB amended its territorial rules (Witt, 2005). Currently, teams may only move to a new territory if three-fourths of the league clubs and one-half of other league clubs approve the relocation (Pappas, 2002a). In addition, MLB Rule 52
established territorial counties for each MLB franchise (Pappas, 2002a). Clubs may not invade within 15 miles of another club’s established territory unless the ‘invaded’ team grants permission. No area may have more than two franchises and no playing facilities may be less than five miles from another (Pappas, 2002a).

The current territorial rules contain some unique provisions for teams in shared areas. For the American and National League franchises in New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles, the defined counties are the same, but in the case of the A’s and Giants, the San Francisco Bay Area has been divided disproportionately (Pappas, 2002a).

Here’s the full citation from the Pappas article cited above:
Pappas D (2002a) ‘Inside the Major League rules’ Retrieved from http://roadsidephotos.sabr.org/baseball/02-4rules.htm

Finally, you can download the full article from this URL:
http://go.warwick.ac.uk/eslj/issues/volume4/number3/nagel/

by OaklandSi on Apr 27, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't know if that's a "differing" viewpoint

yours seems to be the consensus on the new Yankee stadium — but I nevertheless appreciate the firsthand retelling of your experience. I think the irony is by trying to make the new stadium so much like the old one, it ended up being clunky and uninviting, but without the charm of the old stadium (not that i’d ever been). That doesn’t mean it wouldn’t have still been a tremendous waste of money if they’d gone with a different design, but if they tried to be a little more original it might have been an improvement.

Also, it’s not true that new stadiums need to cost $500 million to build. Camden Yards, which seats $45,000, cost “only” $225 million, and they were hardly being cost-conscious. I’m sure a team could build a no-frills stadium for $100-150 million, sans luxury boxes (which are big money losers, but are built anyway because stadiums are subsidized and luxury box revenue is not subject to revenue sharing).

Anyway…back to my paper on baseball stadiums.

by swatnick on Apr 26, 2009 7:30 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

What is really odd

Is that due to this rash of new stadium construction, while old, decrepit, the Coliseum is one of the most unique venues left in MLB. Along with Kaufmann, Dodger, Wrigley, Skydome and Fenway. The rest are either band box ripoffs, or were turned into bandbox ripoffs like Angels Stadium and US Cellular Field.

by athletics68 on Apr 27, 2009 2:43 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The Coliseum is the 4th oldest MLB park ...

Behind Wrigley, Fenway and Dodger Stadium (Angel Stadium is technically older, but it was so thoroughly renovated, I would say that it doesn’t count) … but, at its best, the Coliseum is a crappy version of Dodger Stadium, so, while it’s unique — and a better place than many of the new parks to actually watch a game — that’s hardly a selling point.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Apr 27, 2009 6:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tear Down Mt. Davis...

And the Coliseum is a beautiful ballpark with a beautiful view. I have been to many stadiums and aside from the football season the grass in Oakland is as lush and green as anywhere.

Also the old Yankee Stadium was not that great either. They destroyed most of that charm in the 1970’s. It was just an old, gigantic ballpark.

by Billy Frijoles on Apr 28, 2009 1:03 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The Yankees just cut their top tickets in half

Here’s the article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/29/sports/baseball/29tickets.html?hp

Those tickets cost $2500 each; now they’re $1250 per ticket.

However, what the article fails to mention is that on Monday, August 17th, the Yankees will play the Oakland A’s at the Coliseum.
cost of 2 flying from JFK to Oakland ($300 per) $600
cost of the same seats at the Coliseum ($55 per) 110
cost of a hotel room for a couple, one night: 150

total cost for a couple to come to Oakland and have those same seats, and spend the night: $860. Savings: $290

by richwol1 on Apr 28, 2009 1:41 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Actually...

That’s a couple vs. one seat.

by richwol1 on Apr 28, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

One step further

It’s STILL cheaper for that couple to spend two nights in Oakland, go to two games in the same seats, and still have money left over for food.

by richwol1 on Apr 28, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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