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Dallas Braden: The Expectation Gap

Dallas Braden, in my opinion, is going to be a star.

Before I go on to backup my opinion with controversial evidence, I would like to explain, for what it's worth, that I've held this belief since the very first time I saw Braden pitch in 2007 and am only using the opportunity of one of his most successful major league starts to espouse my optimistic projections, not merely jumping on his bandwagon after one good start.

Firstly, there seems to be absolutely no contingent of ANers, Scouts, Bloggers, or even fans who agrees with me. Even the most optimistic projections I've seen have claimed that Braden can be a good #3 starter.

Before the year started, there were a fair amount of people that believed Braden would eventually end up in the bullpen, and most figured that he didn't enter into the A's plans after 2010 with the affluence of young pitching about to break through.

 

Star-divide

 

So, why you ask, will Braden be a legitimate star major league pitcher, an ace in a major league rotation, a guy who can throw 200 innings with a sub-3 ERA?

For a few reasons. In the first place, he has excellent command. Often you hear about pitchers who "throw strikes," which is sometimes code for "well, he can get it over the plate, hopefully his movement will do the rest..." Braden does not simply throw it over the plate, Braden hits targets. He has all the way through the minors with impeccable BB/9 rates, and he has from his very first hitter who he struck out looking with a 3-2 fastball right on the inside corner. 
In fact, one of the few balls that's been hit hard off of Braden so far this year, the Youkilis homerun, was on a fastball right on the inside corner. The pitch was with two strikes and was a bad call by Suzuki, as Braden had gotten two called fastball strikes on Youkilis in the at-bat, and he would have been dead on a changeup as he was in the sixth inning. 

Next, Braden's changeup is one of the best pitches I've ever seen. A 15 mph difference (87.2-72.8 avg speeds, according to Fangraphs) is devastating, and Braden generates a ridiculous amount of swinging strikes on the pitch. In fact, he appears to use swinging strikes more to keep hitters off balance and later induce weak flyouts a la Justin Duchscherer rather than to generate strikeouts, a remarkably intelligent strategy which will ultimately help him limit his pitch count (like today) and go deep in ballgames. With the amount of swinging strikes that Braden gets, he easily has the ability to be a high strikeout pitcher, but it would be a waste of pitch count, and Braden isn't playing for the scouts or the projection systems, he's playing to win.

This is one of the reasons I think that Braden hasn't gotten the projections that he deserves. His minor league career is second to none. His K/9 numbers throughout the minor leagues were 15.43, 11.77, 5.40, 9.75, 10.41, 9.11, with the 5.40 being a single start in AA in 2006. 

Dallas Braden has not just pitched well, but ultimately dominated every level he has reached, and he is showing no signs of letting up in the Major leagues, steadily improving, start by start.

I am not here to convince everyone that Dallas Braden will necessarily be a legitimate ace. But I am here to add that possibility to the conversation.

Too long have scouts written off players because of 87.2 mph average fastballs. 

Dallas Braden reminds me a lot of Tom Glavine (though the similarities do not extend to personality), another lefty whose fastball averaged about 85mph throughout his career.
In fact, their minor league numbers are fairly similar:

  • Braden ERA: 3.30
  • Glavine ERA: 3.61
  • Braden H/9: 8.05
  • Glavine H/9: 8.31
  • Braden HR/9: 0.75
  • Glavine HR/9: 0.81
  • Braden K/9: 10.13
  • Glavine K/9: 6.08
  • Braden BB/9: 2.39
  • Glavine BB/9: 4.01

Again, I'm not saying that Braden will win over 300 games and be a probable hall of famer like Tom Glavine, but I'm saying that his fastball is faster, his minor league numbers are better, and there's no reason to write off an optimistic possibility.

Also, I really love Dallas Braden... he's fun to watch...


 

2 recs  |  Comment 29 comments

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His progression in Oakland has been quite remarkable.

I don’t know about anyone else, but as far as I can remember, when he was first called up he didn’t exactly have high expectations at all. And definitely nothing even in the same region as the massive expectations set upon Cahill, Anderson, and going back, Zito, Mulder, and Hudson. It was more of the Komine and Windsor type of non-hype. Braden was just a fringy #4-5 starter that wasn’t allowed to throw his money pitch, his screwball. This year, he was our opening day starter only because there was literally no one else besides Eveland.

Now look. Today was a gem. I was sincerely impressed with that interview he gave Blez a few weeks ago about adding and subtracting speeds on his pitches. It looks like he’s really become a pitcher, not just a thrower. Kudos to Braden, and to our phenomenal pitching development program.

by danmerqury on Apr 19, 2009 10:51 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

star? probably not

if he can fluke into several solid months like eveland/smith did in 08 i’m sure most would take that.. Braden has already beaten the odds as a 24th rd pick and the only decent sp remaining from that 04 draft. He’s never pitched many innings at an level mainly due to durability issues in the minors. If he can stay healthy and eat up innings thats most important. Encouraging to see his avg FB velocity stay at 88mph. I still think he’s a back rotation sp, but he’s pitched very well thus far.

by Asfan4ever723 on Apr 19, 2009 11:01 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

This is exactly my point.

There are really no numbers to suggest that he’s a back of the rotation type starter. He’s been great everywhere he’s gone.

What evidence do you have that he has such a low ceiling?

"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau

by King Richard on Apr 19, 2009 11:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

draft round, lack of a "plus" fb

that’s about it

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Apr 20, 2009 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You cannot look at and make comparisons with Braden's minor league numbers

He was a completely different pitcher back then because of his screwball. That’s what led to his ridiculous numbers and also his arm problems. The A’s have made him scrap the screwball, and without it I don’t think he’ll ever be an ace.

Pitchers generally need a great pitch or fantastic control of all of them, and while he has good control over all his pitches, I don’t think they’re that good. And do you have any numbers to back up his “ridiculous amount of swings and misses” from his change? Actually his fastball had the lowest rate of swinging strikes (link here)

Either way, he should be a good pitcher, but not a great one—not without the scroogie.

by NateHST on Apr 19, 2009 11:19 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I believe

that his fastball had the lowest rate of swinging strikes, I was referring to his changeup.

If someone could point to me to a place that has some numbers on swinging strikes on changeups, I’d be very interested.

Also, after Braden scrapped the screwball, he really developed his changeup, turning it into the plus pitch that it is. Moreover, there’s no evidence in his K/9 rates in the minor leagues that he struck out any fewer batters after the shoulder surgery (except for the expected slight drop from changing levels)…

In 2007 in Sacramento he struck out 74 batters in 64 innings.

"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau

by King Richard on Apr 19, 2009 11:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If I'm not mistaken, the arm problems happened in 2005.

His ridiculous strikeout rates in the minors (the ones over 12 K/9) happened in late 2004 and early 2005—but it was only over about 80 innings with the screwball.

Then the arm problems happened, he missed most of 2006. Then he came back in 2007 and started in AA, where he’d already thrown 100 innings. He was good in AAA and he got unlucky in the MLB.

So while I feel that he is a good pitcher, I don’t think he’s an ace, or that he really even has ace potential. I just think if you’re looking at Braden’s track record, you really can’t count anything before 2007. Unfortunately, that sort of makes your point more valid, because his ERAs were all in the 2s.

You do make some points. I honestly don’t know what to expect from Braden, but I have to say I don’t expect an ace. I expect the K/9 to hover around 6 or so.

by NateHST on Apr 20, 2009 12:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right,

I completely agree, I’m just trying to present the idea that Braden (imo) does have the potential to become an ace. I’m not saying he will or even that I expect him to, but I do think that it should be a possibility worthy of discussion.

As to swinging strikes, I found his numbers from his game against the Red Sox. This obviously should be taken with extra grains of salt for small sample size, but in that game he had 13.7% swinging strikes, which is incredibly good for anyone and especially someone whose fastball tops out at 88. (Tim Lincecum’s career swinging strike rate is 12.1%)

"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau

by King Richard on Apr 20, 2009 12:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ah, found it

Braden’s swinging strike rate on his changeup in his career is 32.7%.

To compare, Tim Lincecum’s swinging strike rate on his curveball is 26.0%,
John Lackey’s swinging strike rate on his curveball is 28.1%,
and James Shields’ (another guy with a phenomenal changeup) swinging strike rate on his changeup is 35.3%.

I’d say it’s safe to call Braden’s changeup an elite pitch.

"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau

by King Richard on Apr 20, 2009 12:43 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah i've never understood all the talk about him being a "bad" pitcher

I mean it’s not like he’s had much time to prove himself

"It's like déjà vu all over again." -yogi berra

by Cheezombie on Apr 19, 2009 11:50 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Oh boy..

The guy pitches a good game and all of a sudden he’s going to be a star. If only that happened with every A’s pitcher….

Where are the people complaining about how hittable he is just a few days ago?

"We were s--, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Apr 20, 2009 12:15 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Not that you have to believe me

But I’ve been trying to say that Braden’s gonna be great since the moment he came up, and all throughout he 6 plus ERA in 2007…

"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau

by King Richard on Apr 20, 2009 12:23 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

braden's the best of the group that never was

Meyer DFA
Windsor – released
Madsen/Komine – injured. i dont think komine is even in the A’s sytem anymore
Knox milb FA

by Asfan4ever723 on Apr 20, 2009 12:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

it's disappoing to think about

Komine and Windsor came up with a lot of fanfare, and then just faded away. it wasn’t quite so bad with Meyer since he was hurt for so long. so i, for one, will keep rooting for Braden even if he isn’t the second coming of Tom Glavine.

by wonderbat on Apr 20, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're too modest, KR.

We do have to believe you.

My usual reaction, when someone says “I’m not just jumping on the bandwagon, I believed this all along,” is that if you can’t back that up by linking to past comments, you shouldn’t claim it.

So I did a little sleuthing with AN’s super search, and sure enough, it backs you up.

For others who are as skeptical as I was, I direct you to this comment from July 2008, where KR predicts Braden will “become a good major league starter” and this one from July 2007, where he says Braden is “going to be a #2 starting pitcher, maybe one day even an ace”.

Maybe we should call you “King Dallas” from now on.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Apr 20, 2009 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good call, KR

When Braden first came up I was skeptical because he was primarily a two-pitch pitcher whose fastball didn’t have great velocity or movement, and I figured he’d end up in the bullpen. But the addition of the cutter and the ability to “add and subtract” on the fastball have made a difference, and Braden always had the mindset to be a front-end starter. Now I see his ceiling as being a #2 starter, though I still expect it most likely he’ll settle in at around a #3.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Apr 20, 2009 8:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not just a good game or a couple good games.

I’ve been thinking and saying similar things for quite some time.

A star? Well, maybe not a star, but I have seen what I believe to be good progression since he was first called up and I believe that he is developing into a very fine pitcher. It helps that he’s willing to learn how to pitch and not just throw, I think.

When his career is over, I predict there are going to be alot of people who will say, “Ya know, he had a pretty damn good career. Where did he come from?”.

I could prove God statistically. Take the human body alone - the chances that all the functions of an individual would just happen is a statistical monstrosity.
~George Gallup

by UncleLeo on Apr 20, 2009 8:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

braden - glavine

i’m a huge braden fan and have been for years, but:

In fact, their minor league numbers are fairly similar:

you can’t compare their minor league numbers like that without mentioning that glavine was drafted out of high school and pitching in the majors at age 21.
age 20: 145ip AA, 40ip AAA
age 21: 150ip AAA, 50ip MLB

the first time braden did anything noteworthy at a level above A+ was in 2007, when he was already 23.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Apr 20, 2009 7:16 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I didnt think much of Braden

A few years ago but he has definately improved and now I have hopes of him turning into a Ted Lilly type pitcher. I think he is far more of a Ted Lilly then a Tom Glavine, but thats just me.

by pbra17 on Apr 20, 2009 9:03 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

so ted lilly is "not much"?

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Apr 20, 2009 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Baseball Reference thinks he will end up being Dennis Boucher. I think Braden’s future is Tim Redding.

Don't believe in yourself.
Believe in Me who believes in You.

by Zonis on Apr 20, 2009 2:45 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

PECOTA says Bob Ojeda. That's pretty good.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Apr 20, 2009 7:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

On land, anyway.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Apr 20, 2009 8:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

About the screwball

I’ve heard it before, but have since forgotten.

Are the A’s just not letting him throw it at all due to injury risk?

I mean,
A professional baseball staff should be able to work with mechanics so that a pitcher can use his most effective pitch am I right?

My favorite player is whoever is hitting behind Bobby Crosby because no matter what they always look so good.

by supermarc589 on Apr 21, 2009 12:34 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

From my understanding

they’re not sure whether or not the screwball had anything to do with the shoulder injury, but when they had Braden stop throwing it, he was still just as effective and they said “don’t fix what ain’t broke.”

"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau

by King Richard on Apr 21, 2009 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Braden does talk about it

in this March interview.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Apr 21, 2009 8:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He'll have a solid career

Dallas is the type of pitcher who I could see pitching well on the A’s, but struggling elsewhere. His change-up is certainly an out pitch, but outside of that, he is very hittable. My prediction for Dallas is that he is a good pitcher until his late 20s or early 30s, when his velocity declines from a manageable 87 to an unmanageable 82. Not being a high strike out pitcher in the majors, his career will be short but relatively effective.

by natethesnyde on Apr 21, 2009 12:44 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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