Duke Back to Bullpen??
by windyfelix on Mar 5, 2009 7:19 AM PST
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PrintAccording to SuSlu, the A's are thinking hard about it, though Duke is resisting, for obvious reasons. They apparently believe the strain on the arm will be much less in a relief role.
If so, then we had better start contemplating what rotation alignment gives the team the best chance at success this year while still setting up what should be an even better 2010 and beyond. I think Eveland's experience mandates that he be in the mix; Gallagher's potential as well; and Braden's quirky stuff could serve to throw a team off in the midst of harder throwers.
But the next two spots could be crucial-- Slusser also reports scouts raving about both Cahill and Mazzaro this spring. I just don't see Outman and Williams as difference-makers, unless you are talking a negative difference. and the same for Edgar Gonzalez.
I think Gio and whichever of MAC appears most ready-- let's say Cahill or Mazzaro-- will fill out the last two spots-- with the next one of MAC ready to come in during the season as injury and performance warrants. You simply don't let talent like this waste-- particularly if they, not the others, give you the best chance of winning a la Hudson in 1999, Zito in 2000. I really believe we'll see two of the kids as crucial parts of this rotation by midseason.
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he wont be back in 2010
unless he pulls an ellis and takes much less money due to his injury issues. might as well, leave him in the rotation and get the most out of him
I think that's an argument for the pen
If he’s going to be limited to 150IP, if that, then why not put him back into a spot where he can throw 70-80 highly-leveraged innings and give one of the kids a chance to get experience? As it is, he will simply be holding somebody back.
+1
look at the second half of last season. plus, he was an all-star out of the pen.
i was wrong to do that stuff
he was also an all star in the rotation, and he was also injured out of the pen
and he’s like 5x more valuable in the rotation.
if he only missed 1-2 starts at the beginning of the season and then falls apart until after the all-star break like last year, that could be fine as one of MACS should be ready to replace him by then.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on Mar 5, 2009 9:49 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
good point
and i would love to see a full season of quality starts out of him. but he’s saying his elbow hurts on every throw, and if goes rich harden and misses a majority of games, he is useless in any capacity.
its definitely a gamble either way.
i was wrong to do that stuff
We dont need Duke in the pen...
the pen is overflowing….
the rotation is a dried up river bed by comparison
I miss Chad God
Can we get a Link?
And hey, if you got a link, might as well turn this into a DLD
Chicago. Where the Dead can Vote. Where the Voters of Tomorrow are found in the Obituaries of Today.
by Zonis on Mar 5, 2009 9:02 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
If the A's plan on carrying a rookie pitcher...
plus a fragile Duke, then why not use a 6 man rotation to limit innings? This may actually become helpful later in the season and hope willing, the postseason.
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
Duke to the Pen
only makes sense for us if our Pitching Prospects are all ready to step in.
But I will say, it would actually be kind of awesome to open the season with a rotation of;
Gallagher
Gonzalez
Cahill
Anderson
Mazzaro
Chicago. Where the Dead can Vote. Where the Voters of Tomorrow are found in the Obituaries of Today.
Awesome in a "glimpse of the future" kinda way
Not so awesome in a “not a prayer in hell of contending” way.
In man's evolution he has created the cities and the motor traffic rumble
But give me half a chance and I'll be taking off my clothes and living in the jungle
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Mar 5, 2009 9:26 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
The A's have more relievers than they can carry on the roster, and lack starters
There is no logical reason why they would or should ever move anyone to the bullpen at this point.
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
by PaulThomas on Mar 5, 2009 9:45 AM PST reply actions 5 recs
but yet they are strongly considering it, obviously...
I would argue the reverse. They have 9-10 starters who are, or soon to be, major league ready. And not much long-term prospect of Duke being one of them. Throw them into the fire— and let’s see. relievers are very fungible in terms of AAA or even getting moved.
i don't see this anywhere
please provide a link or at least tell us where you heard this.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
slusser story today
lead sentence includes this phrase “could convince the team to move him back to relief”— when he returns to action. Obviously she’s talking to someone in the A’s firmament with that view.
That's not at all obvious
That comment in the article’s context is purely speculative. Maybe SuSlu will pop in and source it for us, but as it is, it’s hanging speculation.
As for the original statement, yes, they have 9-10 players who will soon be major league ready, but none of them is as good as Duchscherer yet. Or even particularly close, for that matter. They have relievers who are probably as good or better than Duchscherer, and redundant relievers are barely worth anything anyway.
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
a reporter of her skill and experience
doesn’t “speculate” in a lead sentence without having had a source make a suggestion. In fact, if anything, the train is usually well ahead of the reporting in a situation like this, meaning there is a halfway decent chance that they’ve already made this decision.
Hogwash
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
lol
you are entertaining— I’ll give you that. Glad you have a superior understanding of the journalism profession
I thought it was a superior understanding
of how to clean pigs.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Quick question
Have you seen “Black Sheep?”
Summary: An experiment in genetic engineering turns harmless sheep into blood-thirsty killers that terrorize a sprawling New Zealand farm.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
I've seen more than I care to admit
Haven’t seen the movie, though, no.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I LOVE THAT MOVIE
honestly one of the most entertaining movies i have ever seen.
"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT
"Black Sheep"
The one with Chris Farley (R.I.P) and David Spade? Now that is a movie I like. I’m easily entertained :-)
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
actually, yes, as a sideline
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
I was asking madmongoose
I mean, windyfelix. ;-)
I wouldn’t doubt if SuSlu was fed a little info that she used to float the speculation about Duke going back to the bullpen, but there’s nothing obvious or automatic about her having to have heard it from someone within the organization first. It’s not like Duke hasn’t pitched in relief before and it’s hardly a reach for her to assume on her own that he could go back there to lessen the chance of repeated injury.
Of course, only SuSlu can say one way or the other what the basis for the speculation is.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
Furthermore
A good writer leads with the most interesting, biting thoughts. Just saying Duke is hurt and throw in at the end or in the middle “maybe he’ll go back to relief” isn’t nearly as compelling as saying right up front, Duke may be done as a starter, here’s why. This is especially true considering how weak we look in the starting rotation.
In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!
That, too. Speculating on that is a big way to get people to keep reading
It doesn’t mean some info was leaked, though. Could’ve been.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
She wasn't on her game -
Leading with “Duchscherer, who may soon be linked to Alanis Morrisette’s alien baby, might be moving to the bullpen…” would have been even more effective.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
can we get this in green
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
by flipgatey3 on Mar 5, 2009 11:05 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Duke definitely is going to be examined by Yocum
not just the film from the MRI, according to Slusser:
Justin Duchscherer is heading to L.A. today to have his elbow examined by Dr. Lewis Yocum.
Big deal?
No one really expects Duke to have 30 starts or 200 IP anyway. It’s the same with me with him missing the start of the season versus the tail end of the season. or even the middle part. The bigger concern is how effective he will be when he does pitch. If we are only gonna get 150 IP from him, I’d rather see these 150 IP be the most dominant by a pitcher.
It's time to go out and get someone.
This team has too much offensive potential to squander away a season on poor pitching. Go get Pedro and/or Schilling (or any other available gun for hire) and let’s make a real run at this thing. Between Dukes injuries and the potential struggles of Braden, Eveland, Gallagher, Gio, Outman etc. I don’t see risk here, just reward. And hell, its not my money.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
but they both suck
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
And Braden, Gio and other options don't?
These two would allow the young guys to mature at Sacramento until their arms fall off around the break. Then bring in reinforcements (Duke, Cahill Anderson, Simmons, Mazzaro) for a second half run. Duke isn’t exactly a quick healer and that’s two or three months of AAA experience for the young guys.
Hot dogs, get your hot dogs.
5th starter
Usually a team doesn’t need a 5th starter for the first few weeks of the season. I think the best way to go is start with this staff and see who is successful for the first month. With Mazzaro, Cahill, Anderson and Simmons starting in AAA. It will be an ongoing battle to keep their spot in the rotation between AAA and the bigs. With 9 guys who are talented and ready for a shot the rotation has a lot of upside but will also see lots of shaky performances.
- Eveland
- Gallagher
- Braden
- Gio
- Outman
RIVER CATS: AAA CHAMPS!
Have you seen the schedule this year? They'll need the 5th starter early.
by thejd44 on Mar 5, 2009 10:20 AM PST up reply actions
Oh well
That makes it tougher. I do like the new team building method by Beane in avoiding all starting pitcher contracts. The only way we got so many position free agents + Holliday salary bump was by using our own pitching prospects. We’ll see if that works this year.
RIVER CATS: AAA CHAMPS!
Gallagher and Eveland and pray for rainy trend
by BillyWannabeane on Mar 5, 2009 7:00 PM PST up reply actions
Sean, Dana, and Braden,
and hope Duke isn’t fadin’.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
a-rod out, yankees need a 3b for the first 50 games
maybe we can trade crosby for phil hughes. okay okay, throw in ben copeland.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
Nooooooooo
There goes my fantasy team
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Mar 5, 2009 10:34 AM PST up reply actions
you drafted ben copeland?
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
First overall
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Mar 5, 2009 10:36 AM PST up reply actions
Who didn't?
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
Dana Eveland as our “ace.” Oh boy, I hope our offense REALLY takes off.
My religion is A'slamic.
by WhoNeedsReligionWhenYaGotBaseball on Mar 5, 2009 10:21 AM PST reply actions
a little more on the history of injury with Duke's elbow
is provided in this quote from one of Urban MLB.com’s articles:
Duchscherer on Wednesday morning said the MRI didn’t show “anything major,” adding that the only irregularity identified was something he’s known about since he was a teenager.
“When I was 13, I did something to a ligament in there and I think it pulled a little piece of bone off,” Duchscherer explained. “It’s all healed up, and it’s never bothered me, but it just looks different than normal on the MRI.”
Not that this is necessarily the case for him, but many times an old injury that appears to have healed fine can get aggravated with age and use. Also keep in mind that he survived a serious car accident with some significant injuries. All of those kinds of injuries have possibilities to cause (or not cause) future problems. In any event, I found this bit of info about Duke’s elbow potentially significant….
Also, not all injuries show up on MRI’s. For example Dotel complained about signficant and increasing pain even though his MRI’s looked good. When he finally had the surgery (I believe it was performed by the “other” expert Dr. Andrews) the elbow was in really bad shape and needed major work, even though that never really showed up on the MRI.
I think the fact that Duke’s elbow pain is not subsiding is unfortunately a good indication that the problem is significant.
hell, they couldn't even find a quarter-sized bone chip in dan meyer's shoulder
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
Well, I'm not against Beane going out and finding another starter
via trade if it makes sense. Obviously, any team that even considers trading with the A’s is gonna want one or more of the young studs but if Beane can get creative, I think one would have to consider it.
What would it take to acquire Roy Halladay? He has two years left on his contract before FA. Beane and Riccardi are close and I wouldn’t put it past the two collaborating on a deal that helps both clubs. Seems to me Toronto isn’t really going anywhere in their division so it might be to their benefit to trade one of their stars for some young talent and build towards making a run like the A’s in a few years. It’s just an idea, in any case.
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
To get halladay
say goodbye to at least one of MAC, carter or Doolittle, and probably another pitcher. In other words, why??
You wouldnt trade Mazzaro, Doolittle and say Italiano or Bailey
for arguably the best pitcher in the AL? And he’s one of the most consistant to boot.
by UOSportsDude on Mar 5, 2009 11:02 AM PST up reply actions
Don't forget the long-term strategy.
Billy Beane is still trying to build a team for the future. The only reason he’s made the moves he has this year is because he’s seen an opportunity to compete now without sacrificing the future.
Of course, not sacrificing the future depends on Greg Smith remaining mediocre, Carlos Gonzalez never panning out as an All-Star, and Huston Street continuing to decline.
"To this day and dating back 25 years, before every game he plays, Henderson stands completely naked in front of a full length locker room mirror and says, "Ricky’s the best," for several minutes."
by VORP is too nerdy on Mar 5, 2009 11:19 AM PST up reply actions
CarGon coulkd be a star.....
but we’re stacked enough w/ left handed outfielders….. alot of it has to do w/ economy…. A’s will have a REALLLY hard time drawing fans w/o some excitement…
holliday-giambi brings it. Secondly I’m not convinced holiday wont deflate his stats enough to make him a viable resign option.
since 2004 holidays power numbers away from coors (half his schedule)
have read:
2004- 4 hr away (16 total)
2005- 7 hr away (19 total)
2006- 12 hr away (34 total)
2007- 11 hr away (36 total)
2008- 10 hr away (25 total)
In the last 3 years he’s hit .296 (.370 obp) away from coors while hitting .361 (.430) AT coors. Now this doesnt make him a poor hitter…. but its more realistic to project he’ll hit about 300 with 20 hrs instead of .330, 30 hr guy colorado stats inflate him to be. A drop like that will make teams reconsider making the mega texiera/arod type offers at him. There is nothing WRONG with those adjusted numbers I’ve shown… Every team would love that hitter, but that guy at a corner outfield spot in todays economy commands FAR less than a corner infielder w/ his coors field numbers.
if thE A’s make the playoff and a stadium deal gets done and he doesnt go off for a .350, 40 hr mvp year… i wouldn’t be surprised if wolff pulls the trigger to keep him
There is nothing WRONG with those adjusted numbers I’ve shown
Apart from their defective methodology, but don’t let that stop you.
You cannot use just road stats to evaluate players. Cannot, cannot, cannot. Players’ entire hitting lines should be adjusted for park. Road stats do not do that. EVERY player hits better at home, once you adjust for park effects. It’s unfair to Holliday to deny him those benefits (sleeping in a house, knowing the park, familiar hitter’s eye, etc) en route to a hamfisted approximation of the Coors effect.
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
true but its not inconcieveable....
to project holiday hits 300 + 20-25 hrs. I’d LOVE that production from my 3 hitter, especially in a post juice era where 30 hr’s is again a measurement of a quality top teir power hitter.
And if he does, don’t you think the media will write him off as a coors field anomoly or at the minimum not value him like texeria. Making him potentially resignable.
For the record Rowand hit 309 w/ 27 hr’s and a gold glove his contract year before giants and got 5 years 60 mil…in an inflated market… if the economy keeps sucking I cant see Holiday attracting much more than that… peticularly for a corner outfielder.
and pay him with what???
Assuming Toronto even goes for this deal.
if Beane could get that deal
the only problem would be if Wolff can write the check before he has a heart attack due to excitement
by UOSportsDude on Mar 5, 2009 11:09 AM PST up reply actions
in 3 of past 5 seasons...
he either missed at least one-third of the season— 2004-5; or had a decidedly middling ERA (3.71)—2007. Yes he’s a great pitcher, but not worth gutting half of our best prospects and paying a king’s ransom.
no one is suggesting paying a king's ransom
I suggested that if Beane could get creative and make a deal that makes sense then I’d be all for it. Again, it’s only an idea and it’s fun to picture a Hallday or a Jake Peavy type in the green n’ gold.
Plus, Halladay has an injury history that fits right in with the A’s!
:)
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
Well, if the As' are gonna make this year
do you feel comfortable with the guys that might fill out the rotation as constituted right now? Obviously Halladay would come at a price but I’m just throwing out an idea….that’s why.
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
why might as well have signed ben sheets too....
between sheets and duke we’d get 30 quality starts… for a total price of 12 mil…..if u look at it that way its worth it
better deal than zito lol
nvm
realized he’s getting elbow surgery. silly me
well if the A's decide to pitch Duke till his elbow falls off at the all-star break
then Beane can pick up Sheets and have him pitch the rest of the season in Duke’s place until his arm falls off
Cahill strengthened the case today
And Mazzaro drew raves for his 96 mph heater last outing. It just seems as if these guys are moving fast toward the Show.
I agree with you there.
I really have a good feeling about both of those guys, especially after their last outings, respectively
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
If you're trying to actually win . . .
Duke is a starter. There is no realistic way to have this team contend if Duke doesn’t start 20+ games.
Even if all three of the MAC’s are perfect for the rest of spring training, Duke with a balky but functioning elbow is likely to win more games than the best of them. I love these guys, too, but they are not likely to help the A’s win in 2009.
If Duke doesn’t start, then you 1) put the best team on the field that you can and 2) prepare to trade Holliday. And, in the unlikely case that an injured Duke has any value, you probably trade him as well.
"I hate the Wild Card." - - Dave Stewart
Duke is very resistant to even considering the pen
according to what he said to Slusser:
Asked about going back to the bullpen, Duchscherer said, “No chance. I wouldn’t do it.”
Implying that if put in the bullpen, instead of pitching he'd just retire
Memo to Duke: That’s how you’re feeling, not how you’re thinking.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
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