A Tango with A's Lineup Optimization
105, 100, 91, 79, 91, 76, 72, 91, 78, 107, 106
That is the number of different lineup s the A's have run out since 1998 (not including games w/ pitchers in the lineup), according to baseball-reference.com. It's an interesting pattern for the Beane-era Athletics. Even though the lower numbers correlate well with A's playoff teams bookended by hobbled and/or rebuilding periods, these numbers show that even in the good years the lineups will be fluid throughout the season.
This year, the A's offense is an intriguing and potentially fearsome mix experience and youth, one that should be an improvement on last season's frustratingly ineffective attack. It's also constructed with depth in mind, giving Bob Geren more puzzle pieces than he's had before.
But how would it best fit together?
Taking a cue from Sky Kalkman's awesome work at Beyond the Boxscore—based on the research of Tom Tango, Mitchel Lichtman, and Andy Dolphin presented in The Book—I'm giving the A's lineup a shot. (If you haven't been following this series, check out the Lineup Optimization Hub.)
Both The Book and BtB remind us that while lineup construction is probably overanalyzed, getting the most out of your lineups has value. The research suggests that an optimized lineup is only worth about an extra win vs. a "normal" lineup over the course of 162 games. But that one extra win could be crucial in the AL West in 2009.
For this I'm going with CHONE projections, as most have done so far. Projections for newer A's can be found at FanGraphs.
| R150 | AVG | OBP | SLG | |
| Jack Cust | 21 | 0.231 | 0.384 | 0.443 |
| Matt Holliday | 21 | 0.286 | 0.357 | 0.479 |
| Jason Giambi | 20 | 0.231 | 0.373 | 0.450 |
| Eric Chavez | 4 | 0.247 | 0.331 | 0.427 |
| Travis Buck | 3 | 0.262 | 0.343 | 0.417 |
| Mark Ellis | 0 | 0.257 | 0.332 | 0.399 |
| Ryan Sweeney | -1 | 0.276 | 0.342 | 0.388 |
| Kurt Suzuki | -5 | 0.261 | 0.337 | 0.374 |
| Orlando Cabrera | -5 | 0.274 | 0.332 | 0.373 |
I going to present an optimistic optimized Athletics lineup, as well as lineups that will cover a probable platoon situation.
The Basic Premise
Lineups have traditionally gone like this:
1. Speedy guy
2. Bat control, bunting ability, gap power
3. Best high-AVG hitter
4. The big bopper
5. The wannabe big bopper
6-9. The bottom four in decreasing ability and/or in some sort of L/R fashion.
However, The Book states a lineup constructed with the following in mind will turn out to be the most effective:
1. OBP is obviously paramount, and speed is great
2. About as important as #3, but comes up more often. Should be one of your three best hitters, with OBP a plus.
3. Comes to the plate, on average, with fewer runners on base than the #4 or #5 hitters. Essentially your fifth best hitter.
4. Your best hitter, provided he has power.
5. Should be filled with the next best hitter after #1, #2, and #4 are filled, provided he's not an all-or-nothing home run hitter.
6-9. Pretty much the same as what's been done traditionally, but there is an advantage to putting base stealers ahead of singles hitters at the bottom of the order.
According to The Book, the Tony LaRussa Philosophy of batting your pitcher 8th is actually worth about two runs over a season. The reason behind this is it allows a better #9 hitter to interact with the top of the lineup. In the AL, however, unless a team is running out a completely pathetic hitter, it's not advantageous to tinker with 8/9.
To sum up, here are the lineup spots in order of importance:
1, 4, 2, 5, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9
Now let's build.
The Top "Three"
According to The Book, the #1, #2, and #4 spots should be occupied by your three best hitters. Looking above, it's pretty obvious who those three are. Actually, it's pretty obvious regardless. But how do you separate them and slot them?
1. Cust
2. Giambi
3.
4. Holliday
I know that looks funny, having two sluggish guys at the top of the lineup. But when the top two spots in the order rank 1 and 2 in team plate appearances over a season, it makes sense to populate them with your best hitters. I'm also a bit bullish on Holliday's projections, and I think he's clearly the A's best hitter right now. So while it might be tempting to slot Holliday in the leadoff spot and/or Giambi cleanup, it won't make sense considering what's next.
3, 5 and 6
The Book says that on average, the #3 hitter comes to the plate with fewer runners on base than the #4 or #5 hitters. The reason is simply the frequency with which a #3 hitter will come up in the first inning with none on and two outs. Therefore, there is more value to be had in putting your next best hitter fifth rather than third. This is where things get tricky. Chavez or Buck are next in line here, but we're also starting to get our lefties clumped together. In order to avoid three lefties at the top of the lineup, one of righties Ellis, Suzuki or Cabrera should bat third. None of them "feel" like a three hitter, but all of them make contact frequently enough.
1. Cust
2. Giambi
3. Ellis
4. Holliday
5. Chavez
6. Buck
Interestingly, Suzuki already has more career plate appearances in the three hole than Ellis; Cabrera tops both of them combined. Ellis gets the call because he ultimately has a little more power, and I think it helps having the lowest ground ball rate. (The popups will subside.) I do like Suzuki's potential, and he'll also be a lineup mainstay, so I could see him here too.
The Bottom Three
With six spots filled, the rest falls into place with basic R/L/R. Cabrera projected double-digit stolen bases, so slotting him ahead of Sweeney and Suzuki works nicely.
1. L - Cust
2. L - Giambi
3. R - Ellis
4. R - Holliday
5. L - Chavez
6. L - Buck
7. R - Cabrera
8. L - Sweeney
9. R - Suzuki
That's a pretty solid lineup, and a far cry better than last season. Some might not like the fact that two sets of lefty bats hit back-to-back, but when four of your five best hitters are left-handed, it's hard to separate them without spreading them out too much.
Platoon?
Yep, there's a pretty glaring question mark batting fifth. Chavez's status remains up in the proverbial air. He could start on April 6th, or he could be out until after the All-Star break. No one knows for sure, and the only glimmer of optimism is Chavez's atypical optimism. But going forward, he's really not to be counted on. I love Chavez, but unfortunately he's a Macha-ian non-factor.
That's one of the reasons Nomar Garciaparra was brought in. However, based on Nomar's age and injury history, he's also not going to counted on as an everyday player. Jack Hannahan, Chavy's replacement last season, will also be manning the hot corner. Here's how those two project, followed by two lineups:
| R150 | AVG | OBP | SLG | |
| Garciaparra | 1 | 0.273 | 0.329 | 0.420 |
| Hannahan | -8 | 0.237 | 0.333 | 0.367 |
1. L - Cust
2. L - Giambi
3. R - Garciaparra
4. R - Holliday
5. L - Buck
6. R - Ellis
7. R - Cabrera
8. L - Sweeney
9. R - Suzuki
1. L - Cust
2. L - Giambi
3. R - Ellis
4. R - Holliday
5. L - Buck
6. R - Cabrera
7. L - Sweeney
8. L - Hannahan
9. R - Suzuki
Nomar's clearly the superior hitter, but Hannahan is a superior defender. Depending on how the rotation shakes out, Geren could platoon these two based on the groundball/flyball tendencies of the rotation. In other words, groundballers = Hannahan, flyballers = Nomar.
That's just one idea. There will also be days where Buck sits, or Giambi DHs or rests, or Barton gets called up, or Rajai Davis is in center, etc. There are a bunch of possible lineups. Hopefully Geren doesn't need more than 80.
6 recs |
44 comments
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Comments
I ran the CHONE projections through the Baseball Musings lineup optimizer tool and it gave me this...
Cust
Giambi
Chavez
Holliday
Buck
Cabrera
Sweeney
Ellis
Suzuki
This supposedly scores 5.049 runs/game, as does (supposedly) swapping Buck and Chavez.
Your lineup comes in at 5.041, so it’s pretty close.
The bottom 25 lineups all have Chavez leading off. I find that pretty funny.
Here's a link you might be interested in (helps a lot with link fails)
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Or just use the link function included in AN ...
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
a very interesting and well reasoned post...
but, I think it shows the danger of evaluating players strictly by statistical analysis. Would your proposed lineup actually perform? Be good? Score runs?
1. L – Cust
2. L – Giambi
3. R – Ellis
4. R – Holliday
5. L – Chavez
6. L – Buck
7. R – Cabrera
8. L – Sweeney
9. R – Suzuki
Maybe. But, will Geren ever throw that lineup out on the field this year? Never!
Clowns to the left of me... Jokers to the right...
danger?
the point of this whole post is that this lineup WOULD perform better than a traditional lineup. i see no reason for that not to be true. why do you disagree? are you worried about base-clogging? worried that giambi can’t lay down a bunt to move cust over so holliday can hit a sac fly? why is the above lineup less likely to score runs than a more traditional lineup?
oh yea and keep in mind we’re talking about a difference in the end of a season of one win. lineups don’t make a significant difference on a season but they sure are fun to play with.
and i agree we’ll never see this lineup.
We won't ever know
until someone actually runs a lineup like that out there for a full season. Until then, it’s just conjecture (albeit well supported conjecture), that hasn’t been proven by anything but a computer.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Why wouldn't it score runs?
It’s been shown that the batting order doesn’t mean a whole lot as long as you have your top 9 hitters somewhere.
I agree that this lineup would never happen. Hell… in the course of any given year this lineup could be the best or could be the worst. According to the facts and some theory, the proposed lineup would outperform (even if it’s slightly) all other combinations over the course of many many many seasons. If that’s the case, then it would make sense to use it.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
Of course we won't see this lineup.
But I wonder why. When it comes to running your ball club, the A’s are supposedly at the forefront of statistical analysis. If that’s true, we should see them running out some lineups that would cause an old school baseball guy to throw a full blown hissy fit. Since A’s management is smarter than I, it makes me wonder why they don’t do at least something a little unusual, liking batting Cust second. Cust in the two hole is an idea that I’ve come to love after reading so many well reasoned posts here. Maybe this is something someone (Blez?) could ask BB, Geren or Forst in the future.
I would guess that either
This
Buck
Cust
Holliday
Giambi
Chavez
Ellis
Cabrera
Sweeney
Suzuki
or
This
Buck
Ellis
Giambi
Holliday
Chavez
Cabrera
Sweeney
Suzuki
Ideal Lineup 5.049 r/g
1st Lineup 5.019 r/g
2nd Lineup 4.985 r/g
Now the difference between the “ideal” lineup and the 2nd lineup is 10 runs over the course of the season — which is a win’s difference in performance and does start to get significant … BUT that second lineup has a significant platoon advantage over the other two. All of the best lineup have, in some iteration or another a series in the lineup with 4 lefties over a total of five spots … which, I would guess, would probably have a more significant effect …
As to why you’re unlikely to see Cust in the 2 hole … well he’s a private guy … umm, wait, I misunderstood … it’s probably largely because if almost all of your best hitters are lefties, the easiest way to get as many of them as possible at the top of the lineup without hitting them back to back is to start with #1 …
1,3,5,7
is better than
2,4,6,8
And the reason they’re not going to hit Jack Cust first is because the difference between he and Travis Buck is probably less than the negative effect of having to answer the press’ questions of why they’re doing something so odd …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
Heh ...
admit it, your wife so the post and you felt compelled to act indignant in front of her?
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
You might want to rethink the wisdom of this particular combination of factors
The monster at the end of this blog.
Brian Downing
He led off a lot in the 80s. It has been done before.
More Rajai Davis & less mount Davis
by Athletics fan and runner on Mar 28, 2009 7:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Jeremy Giambi!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
This to me shows the madness of rosterbaiting.
105, 100, 91, 79, 91, 76, 72, 91, 78, 107, 106
That is the number of different lineup s the A’s have run out since 1998 (not including games w/ pitchers in the lineup),…
I know that some people/posting members put a lot of time and effort into constructing an ideal line-up that will be used, if they’re lucky, for about 30 games tops. It seems to me like a way to devote a whole bunch of time into an activity rigged to let you down and break your spirits.
If your point is that...
picking your ideal lineup doesn’t matter because you use so many different lineups per year… then i agree.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
It's actually fewer than 30 games
but I just realized I was looking at the lineups lists at baseball-reference rather than batting orders. Here’s what it should be:
131, 129, 119, 117, 105, 111, 119, 127, 121, 140, 133
I'm starting to like our bullpen......Wuertz and all.
by scatterbrian on Mar 27, 2009 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Gosh
It just feels so wrong. I also think it’s funny that in a non-chavez world our platoon players hit #3 and #8, but they’re almost equally valuable (including D).
Also, I think our situation points out a flaw in Baseball musings as I do think running 5 lefties in a row will result in fewer runs/game because that unhittable LOOGY just killed to innings.
You should link this into the hub.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
The LOOGY line
A commenter on the BtB post quotes The Book:
The Book doesn’t say anything about it specifically in the lineup construction section, but in the section on LOOGYs it says
From the other manager’s point of view, this is why you should avoid having back-to-back lefties in your lineup. In fact, since exact lineup construction is never that important, it is rarely, if ever, correct to bat consecutive lefties in your batting order.
Unless you have 5+ of them in the lineup….
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers."
Yep.
Some back to back is unavoidable (especially as our lefties are better than our righties). Nomorequada’s lineup shows BM just completely ignores handedness.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Giambi's also not horrible vs. lefties
career .268/.383/.471
I'm starting to like our bullpen......Wuertz and all.
by scatterbrian on Mar 27, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions
from the interview with Blez
Giambi admitted to trying to pull the ball more when he played in Yankee stadium. My guess is that hitting that way probably would increase his platoon split, but I might be totally wrong about that.
Also, who knows if he’ll really be able to go back to hitting the way he did when he was last with Oakland. It’s been a long time.
Excellent Post
One of the reasons I love coming here is that I learn so much. I’m an old school kind of guy, I guess, though I’ve learned so many interesting things in the past few years, starting with “Moneyball.” But until now, I truly thought a team’s best hitter was in the three spot for a time proven reason. I’ve always admired the three hitter. In my dreams, I AM THE THREE HITTER! I remember, though, an all star game where Bo Jackson was slotted to lead off. He was unhappy about it, but then hit a home run off of Nolan Ryan to lead off the game and the AL went on to win. I guess I’ll just adjust my dreams and place myself happily in the lead off spot.
What interests me is that Tony LaRussa is pretty savvy,
as well as willing to be unconventional (e.g., batting the pitcher 8th), but he elects to bat Albert Pujols – his best hitter, and arguably the entire league’s best hitter – #3, a spot where The Book says you should not put your best hitter. Why does LaRussa do that, do y’all think? (I’m asking because I really have no idea.)
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
He does not think of it like that.
Because of his view on #8, I think he feels #3 is more like #3.75…plus that one extra at bat more frequently than the 4th guy…
"No offense, Nico, but starcitygames.com used to be the AN of Magic sites "
Except he batted Pujols #3 long before he started doing the "pitcher #8" thing
What’s your take on why?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Such a high value per at bat
And a #3 gets one more at bat in a game more than the #4 more often than the #4 does over the #5. Slowly, that makes sense. Barely.
"No offense, Nico, but starcitygames.com used to be the AN of Magic sites "
I think the answer is because it makes Albert happy (not to say he wouldn't hit anywhere)
And it feels wrong not to.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
If you replace O-Cab with Nomar (I know, not gonna happen)...
BM claims you can get 5.095 with this lineup…
Cust
Giambi
Garciaparra
Holliday
Buck
Ellis
Sweeney
Chavez
Suzuki
And it’s much more platoon friendly.
According to the CHONE projections, that’s really the best lineup we can logically have with any nine players, although I believe CHONE is very pessimistic with some of its projections.
and I'm very pessimistic
about Nomar playing shortstop on a regular basis.
Oh wait! We can move Nomar to DH and just slot Cust in at SS. Problem solved!!
and he hasn't even read the post!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
zing!
I'm starting to like our bullpen......Wuertz and all.
by scatterbrian on Mar 29, 2009 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Didn't he bash us for
Not having speed and “creating” runs?
I need to read MB again, long time ago…
Clear its radiance shine...
yeah kind of like that
his beef was/is that the A’s don’t manufacture runs, stemming from comments about sacrifice bunting and stolen bases in Moneyball. Morgan criticized Moneyball in general while pretty much admitting to have never read the book. He may still be under the impression that Beane wrote the book.
I'm starting to like our bullpen......Wuertz and all.
by scatterbrian on Mar 30, 2009 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions

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