March 18 update: 43 players left in A's camp (original post updated)
by OaklandSi on Mar 16, 2009 11:06 AM PDT
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PrintUPDATE: As you all know by now Rob Bowen was released. It's all but certain that Powell will make the club as the backup to Suzuki.
Bowen's release also opens up a spot on the 40 man roster. As of 3/18 there are 39 players on the 40 man roster, according to the A's website. Only two catchers appear on the 40 man roster today: Suzuki and Powell.
Also, keep in mind that none of MAC is on the 40 man roster yet.
From my original 3/16 post:
John Shea from the SF Chron reported this morning that the A's optioned or reassigned to minor league camp 8 players:
pitchers Ryan Webb (optioned), James Simmons, Jerome Williams, and Kevin Cameron. Geren mentioned that Williams was penciled in to be one of Sacramento's starters, and that he might still be called upon to pitch in split-squad games during spring training.
infielders Jeff Baisley, Eric Patterson (both optioned), Joe Dillon, and Sean Doolittle (sorry, fans in Phoenix).
Jeff Fletcher also mentions the cuts, and briefly describes the difference between being optioned and being reassigned. He also thinks that Williams did well and will likely be kept ready in case of injuries or underperformance from any pitcher on the big club...not that that ever happens, right? ;-)
Joe Stiglitz thinks the Williams reassignment is another indication that the A's are strongly considering adding one or more of Mazzaro, Anderson and Cahill to the starting rotation when the A's finish spring training.
No real surprises here. Does anyone know the deadlines for the remaining rounds of cuts?
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OK, the plot thickens
We’re down to 8 guys for 5 slots (not counting Duke)
I’m betting on a 2-1-2 configuration:
2 from Eveland, Braden and Gallagher (either Gallagher gets sent down or one of the lefties is dealt)
1 Gonzalez (probably Edgar)
2 MAC (Anderson and Cahill)
I don’t think they want 4 lefties, so if Anderson makes it, that either means Gio is out of luck or one of the carryover duo from last year is dealt. I think either is a distinct possibility.
And No...
I don’t think Outman is in contention any more.
I'm not sure the A's particularly care about how many lefties are in the rotation
If they’re good enough to play, they play.
I also think Gallagher is going to get a longer leash than some seem to think around here.
I just remembered I love Eric Chavez.
here's his problem
leave out the flu— and throw out a disappointing stint in the bigs last year
Compare his last 2 full seasons in the minors to Cahill and Anderson— Anderson’s huge advantage is impeccable control. 5.1 K/W ratio to Gallahger’s very ordinary 2.3/1; and Cahill’s is that he misses more bats— they both have control issues, but Cahill has a higher strikeout ratio and gave up 6.1 hits/9 innings to Gallagher’s 8.
The only advantage for Gallagher— and I’m not dismissing it— is that he’s one year further on the development curve. But I think this leads to a reasonable conclusion that he does not necessarily rank ahead of either Cahill or Anderson. And projecting beyond this year, he certainly doesn’t.
I don't think anyone disputes that Cahill and Anderson are better pitching prospects qua prospects
but that argument could just as well apply to Michael Ynoa, who many prospecters would argue is also a better pitching prospect than Gallagher.
Brett Anderson and Trevor Cahill have a combined two starts in AAA or higher, both by Anderson in last year’s AAA playoffs. Sean Gallagher has 34.
When did actually developing prospects become a bad thing?
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
seems to me
it became a bad thing when Spring Training started. Then all of our wise winter baseball advice about letting the prospects get at least half a season of minors was promptly forgotten.
Save Rajai Davis
by oakinboston on Mar 16, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions
forgotten by who?
Beane… Young?? Those of us in that camp have our beliefs, but we’re also responding to the signals from those who know best.
"develop" is an interesting word
It suggests improvement/learning one’s craft/maturing, etc…
When does it say that this development can only happen at the minor league level? You are now switching issues— your earlier point is that anything over 150 IP for MAC risks serious injury problems down the road. Now you’re saying that they need to develop somewhere other than in the major leagues.
Again, 5 of 6 (Hudson, Zito, etc…— everyone but Mulder) A’s starters— in their first season in the bigs as starters— outperformed Braden and Eveland’s 2008 seasons. I’ll leave it to Beane and Young to determine which one (or 2) of MAC is best able to pitch successfully this year— but I’m of the belief that at least one— and probably 2— are better than 3 or 4 or even 5 of the other 6 rotation contenders now. What’s the point of “developing” somewhere else if they’re already your best options in the bigs now?
In Cahill's case, he needs to improve his secondary pitches
He can’t experiment, try different stuff and see if it works, etc. if the games count.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
the idea that cahill is likely to miss more bats than Gallagher in the majors this year is laughable
Cahill has a slight edge in A+(mostly)/AA vs. Gallagher in AAA. Gallaghers K% was very good last year at 20. It is much harder to get Ks in AAA and the majors. Cahill projects to be around 13-14 in the majors this year. Cahill’s advantage over Gallagher is that he’s a ground ball machine.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
Gallagher had 8K/9 last year
Cahill’s translated rate at AA was 5.1/9, and 6.3/9 in Stockton.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
well, to clarify
to allow fewer hits. Maybe it’s a DIPS thing, but I didn’t mean to imply he will strike out more batters— but that’s my fault for not being precise. Gallagher gave up a lot of hits his 2 years in the minors— Cahill has not.
That's fair
Cahill should definitely be better at some point; it wouldn’t surprise me if it was this year, although I would expect Gallagher to be better.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
Hits allowed in the minors is an extremely, extremely suspect statistic
I would put far more reliance on a scout’s evaluation of a pitcher’s stuff than on a crappy proxy like minor league hit rate. Actually, I’d put more reliance on my OWN evaluation— and I’m no scout… so that’s saying a lot…
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
Yes, But
If a guy can’t hit in the minors that isn’t good either
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
Huh?
I’m talking pitchers, not hitters.
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
I think that would be a mistake.
I’m in the “conservative with the prospects” camp, though.
Frankly I’d like to see Eveland/Gallagher/Braden/Gio/Egon (yes, dammit, we’re calling him Egon. Ghostbusters ruled.)
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
+1 from me, too
When I was in pre-school, yes, as a four-year-old, I would write “Egon Spangler” on my papers. The teacher knew it was me though since most kids couldn’t even spell their own names right.
by thejd44 on Mar 16, 2009 10:54 PM PDT up reply actions
100% chance that Eveland, Braden, and Gallagher are in the rotation barring injury
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
That's a bold statement
Can’t figure out to wager against it, but if it were legal I’d offer you one.
Banco
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
I wouldn't say 100 %, as I have never seen anything that likely, but I would say there is a very good chance that Eveland, Braden and Gallagher are in the rotation.
I would say that Gio and Mazzaro would probably have the first chance to be the last two.
I feel that we will see Cahill and Anderson in AAA to start the season. Depending on how the first part of the season goes one or more of Eveland, Braden, Gallagher and Barton could be traded for a SS or 3B prospect and then Cahill and Anderson come up in June or July
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
you could be right...
whichever one it is— I’ve been arguing the 1 in rotation at beginning; and 1 by late spring all along. Duke’s injury has made me wonder if 2 won’t make it now, though. I think it 50-50 that Duke never starts for A’s again.
Can I bet you on that too?
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
Lemme get some of that action, too
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
Interesting...
Patterson gone-zo, Wimberly still around. Simmons and Williams out of the rotation hunt.
I just remembered I love Eric Chavez.
I can see Patterson leaving via a Matt Murton-like trade
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
by franks a lot on Mar 16, 2009 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions
trade Patterson
to the Cardinals. They need 2b help. Who cares what for, just get something of value out of him.
If the A's can build around Holiday, Furcal, Cust, and maybe call up 2nd baseman Wes Childs at some point in the year, they have a shot to take a weak AL West. -- jameersju post on ESPN.com
by youdownwithOBP on Mar 16, 2009 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions
ive been pushing a cards trade for months
their schumaker 2b experiment isnt going well
they have 3b depth to offer
by Asfan4ever723 on Mar 16, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions
This was an interesting move, since Ellis is no guarantee to be ready for second base by opening day
Looks like they really have no faith in Patterson. I support this lack of faith. The dude isn’t very good.
by thejd44 on Mar 16, 2009 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions
I imagine the rotation will be like this to start
in no particualr order (and with DUke on the DL)
Eveland
Braden
Gallagher
Edgar Gonzalez
Vin Maz
myspace music
Due to age and ST performance...
… Vin seems like the presumptive favorite out of the young ’uns to take a roster spot. This rotation looks about right to me.
I just remembered I love Eric Chavez.
We're in serious trouble
every spring. Why should this year be any different? To quote an old baseball axiom, it’s why we play the games. Here’s to hoping our rotation steps it up and gives us all some pleasant surprises.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
Why do people hate so much on Gio?
I dont get it? He has a good-great minor league career and even tho he had a high ERA last year he was still striking out 1 per inning.
"With 16-year-old Dominican righty Michel Inoa in tow, Gio Gonzalez improving at Triple-A and lefty Brett Anderson carving up Double-Abatters along with Simmons and Trevor Cahill, Oakland’s pitching depthis officially the envy of baseball." - BaseballAmerica.com
I'd put him in the pen as he acclimatizes to the majors. He throws too many pitches per inning
at this point to be a starter.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Mar 16, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Well he did in this very short stint as a starter.
He was a very good minor league starting pitcher.
"With 16-year-old Dominican righty Michel Inoa in tow, Gio Gonzalez improving at Triple-A and lefty Brett Anderson carving up Double-Abatters along with Simmons and Trevor Cahill, Oakland’s pitching depthis officially the envy of baseball." - BaseballAmerica.com
Sure. He should be a starter long term...even later in the season.
But I’m not sure he’d do well there next month.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Mar 16, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions
No hating here
I think he is best served starting in triple A. Eventually, within 2 years the rotation should be:
M
A
C
Gio Metro
Simmons
myspace music
I fully expect Gallagher to be apart of that rotation.
"With 16-year-old Dominican righty Michel Inoa in tow, Gio Gonzalez improving at Triple-A and lefty Brett Anderson carving up Double-Abatters along with Simmons and Trevor Cahill, Oakland’s pitching depthis officially the envy of baseball." - BaseballAmerica.com
I H8te Gammer!
"With 16-year-old Dominican righty Michel Inoa in tow, Gio Gonzalez improving at Triple-A and lefty Brett Anderson carving up Double-Abatters along with Simmons and Trevor Cahill, Oakland’s pitching depthis officially the envy of baseball." - BaseballAmerica.com
Aww...
I wanted to see more of Doolittle.
"With 16-year-old Dominican righty Michel Inoa in tow, Gio Gonzalez improving at Triple-A and lefty Brett Anderson carving up Double-Abatters along with Simmons and Trevor Cahill, Oakland’s pitching depthis officially the envy of baseball." - BaseballAmerica.com
ground ball machines
Don’t know where else to put this, but check out MAC’s GB/FB ratio:
Anderson: 22/6 (4.00)
Cahill: 15/3 (5.33)
Mazzaro: 10/4 (2.50)
WOW!
"To me, boxing is like a ballet, except there's no music, no choreography, and the dancers hit each other." - Jack Handey
Eveland isn't bad either
15:10 (1.60), which is consistent with last year’s 1.52
"To me, boxing is like a ballet, except there's no music, no choreography, and the dancers hit each other." - Jack Handey
by JJ on Mar 16, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions
look....Our staff sucks
as of right now…in the future in looks amazing. but D. Eveland is now our #1….the guy got sent down to the minor late last season. Gio should be in the rotation over E. Gonzalez. If were going to suck lets suck with the young guys
If Gio's in the rotation, then they'll need Edgar in long relief. In any case they'll need two long men...
Outman and either Gio or Edgar.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Mar 16, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Unproven ≠ suck
Our rotation is made of nothing but future studs.
Cahill, Anderson, Mazzaro, and Gallagher are all future #1/2 pitchers
Eveland is a middle of the order pitcher.
Gio, a wild card, could be anywhere from a #1 throgh #5 pitcher.
The worst player could very well be Braden, who added a a good cut fastball over the winter and now might have a chance at being a 3/4 pitcher.
Just because they are short on experience does not mean they don’t have skills and can’t have good years. Especially now that the A’s have a good offense, defense, and pen to back them up, they can afford to be light on experience int he rotation.
Sometimes life will strike you out on a curve ball and the only choice you have is to flip off the umpire and walk to first base anyway.
by Threepwood XX on Mar 16, 2009 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Crosby DFA?
With Garciaparra doing so well, does anyone think the A’s might just say “to hell with it” and DFA Crosby before the season?
Sometimes life will strike you out on a curve ball and the only choice you have is to flip off the umpire and walk to first base anyway.
There'd be no reason too
Unless one thinks Petit or Pennington could outperform Crosby in a bench/spot start role.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
to*
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Does anyone else think Gio and Oliver Perez are twin brothers?
maybe you can even throw Javier Vazquez in there. They have the same pitching problems too
Clear its radiance shine...
I think Perez is a decent somewhat worst-case (bad-case?) scenario for Gio
Vazquez is right handed, different type of pitcher. But I think Gio’s 40th-60th percentile is Perez.
by thejd44 on Mar 16, 2009 10:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Since Perez has had four pretty good or better years, that's a very optimistic outlook for Gio
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Mar 17, 2009 9:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Rotation out of camp will be
Eveland
Gallagher
Braden
Anderson
Mazzaro
I could see Gio stealing one of those spots, but not Edgar.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
I could see Eveland, Gallagher, Braden, E Gonzo and Gio starting the season
The reason is this. If Chevy doesn’t get a lot better Beane will need to look for a future 3B and maybe even a SS. If any of the 1st four in that rotation do good, and I think they all can, then they could be trade bait come July. At that time I see Mazzaro and maybe even Anderson coming up. Then the rotation looks more like Gallagher, Gio, Mazzaro, Cahill and either Eveland or Braden, whomever is left on the team.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
ok
There is no doubt that Braden and Eveland are in the rotation.
90% or higher chance the Gallagher is in the rotation.
Gio probably has the edge over Edgar, and mac for the 4th spot.
The real question is how long until Duch comes back? If he comes back in early April then edgar gets the 5th spot, if were looking deep into may I could see one of the MAC in the 5th spot. But Cahill got hit hard today, Anderson is still really green, Vin Maz may get the nod but don’t count out outman as the long relief spot starter
My guess:
None of the MAC make the team out of spring training for reasons of youth, development and super two status:
1. Eveland
2. Braden
3. Gallagher
4. Gio
5. Edgar
6th/spot starter outman.
I agree with this
I’d say the only one of MAC who has a good chance at the rotation is Mazzaro. He’s the oldest, the most advanced, and the one whose service time matters the least.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Cahill was not hit hard today
He lost command— only one ball was hit hard.
Mazzaro/Cahill/Anderson
Wont make the team straight outta camp for the simple reason, that Beane will be smart and get an extra year of control over these guys. I can maybe see Mazzaro, but that’s a stretch too.
"With 16-year-old Dominican righty Michel Inoa in tow, Gio Gonzalez improving at Triple-A and lefty Brett Anderson carving up Double-Abatters along with Simmons and Trevor Cahill, Oakland’s pitching depthis officially the envy of baseball." - BaseballAmerica.com
So you're saying they must sacrifice 2009 for 2015?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Mar 17, 2009 9:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Players who will not start the season in the majors (barring injuries):
Anderson, Cahill, Mazzaro.
by thejd44 on Mar 16, 2009 10:59 PM PDT reply actions
Correct.
I can see Mazzaro getting called up quick.. but Cahill/Anderson needs atleast 1/2 a season in AAA.
"With 16-year-old Dominican righty Michel Inoa in tow, Gio Gonzalez improving at Triple-A and lefty Brett Anderson carving up Double-Abatters along with Simmons and Trevor Cahill, Oakland’s pitching depthis officially the envy of baseball." - BaseballAmerica.com
When you say barring injury...
are you counting Duke? It’s starting to look very likely that he will be starting the season on the DL. If he isn’t able to go in April do you think any of these guys could start out in Oakland?
brett anderson rejected my facebook friend request
cut him NOW
"True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein" -PT
He likes to maintain the player-fan relationship
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
by franks a lot on Mar 17, 2009 6:54 AM PDT up reply actions
How about catchers?
It seems obvoius Bowen is gone – he’s hurt, they’ve given away his number, and there’s a least a rumor he’s been put thru waivers. Anybody know anything for sure, but it looks like the backup catcher will be Landon Powell. Given Suzuki’s history, he’ll be lucky to catch 30 games, but it’s good to get a new catcher coming up.
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