A comprehensive look at attendance figures
I was hoping to post this analysis before the door to the A’s staying in Oakland was effectively slammed shut a few days back.
The impetus for me doing this fanpost was that I’ve read too many comments about A’s attendance that are selective and don’t take into account average league attendance figures or the fact that team attendance across MLB has increased almost 50K per year over the last 40 years. Therefore, when someone states that the A’s only drew 2.1 million fans the year they last won a World Series, it’s somewhat disingenuous because in 1989, that figure was 2nd best in MLB. It also is somewhat deceiving to state that A’s attendance was better than the Giants prior to the opening of Pac Bell. It better be! During the period from 1968 to 1999, the Giants’ attendance figures were the second worst in baseball (imagine that, a second-class city like Oakland outdrawing SF for over 30 years).
I think it is clear that the Oakland Athletics have a problem with low attendance, but how bad is the problem? It seems to me that the A’s have to be the thick of a division race just to attract a crowd that isn’t laughable. I’ve paid enough attention to the A’s over the years to think that my view isn’t due to ascertainment bias. Not only that, but why else would the game attendance consistently make it into postgame wrap ups if it wasn’t? Regardless, I wanted to find out for sure if my opinion was really based on fact.
Below is a graph that shows A’s attendance figures and win totals for every year since the their move to Oakland. Both the attendance figures and wins are displayed as their % difference from average (Average attendance figures were AL only).
Not too surprisingly, attendance is highly correlated with the success of the team. Since both attendance and wins have been normalized to the % difference from average, these values can be subtracted from one another so that they can be compared a bit easier. Years in which attendance outpaces wins will have a positive value, while years with negative values have a lower than expected attendance based on the team’s win total.
Except for the Billy Ball and the Bash Brother eras, the team’s attendance is much worse than one would expect based on their success on the field. The red arrows are events that I thought would specifically affect A’s attendance. The effect the three consecutive world titles had on attendance what downright pathetic. Attendance was league average the year of the first world title 1972, but ranked 11th out of 12 AL teams in 1974. My first thought when I saw this how could the community not shoulder a considerable portion of the blame for their lack of support of these legendary teams? How bad could ownership really be to drive away fans to such a dramatic extreme? However, in support of the statements repeated ad nauseam by the so-called Oakland-only crowd, support for the team was considerably the Haas years. Attendance completely reversed course the year Walter Haas took ownership of the team and it precipitously dropped the year he sold the team to Hoffman-Schott. It would seem as though ownership actually can make quite a difference when it comes to attendance. Other factors have a large of an effect as well (e.g. Mt. Davis, Pac Bell Park, loss of popular players) and since one event cannot be isolated to determine it’s effect, we can’t know for sure how much of a difference ownership has made. Still, after seeing this data I’ve changed my tune a bit and would concede that an owner such as Haas can indeed affect fan turnout. Moving on…
I then took the average attendance-wins value over the 41 years from the graph above (green line: -21%) and converted it to the average number of wins that would be needed to achieve average attendance. For the A’s, that value was not good: 100 wins. I then performed the same analysis on every team in MLB. The results are shown below with the values sorted from the most wins needed to achieve average attendance, to the least.
I found out some pretty interesting things that I really did not expect. The Dodgers and the Rockies had, by far, the best attendance relative the quality of the team fielded. In the first seven years after the Rockies were added as an expansion team, including the the strike shortened year 1994, Colorado average over 3.7 million fans a year. Since 1968, the Dodgers have averaged 2.94 million fans per year, finishing 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in NL attendance for 37 of the 41 years. The Yankees averaged 2.36 million fans/year during the same time period while averaging 4 more wins per season than LA. The other thing that surprised me was that the Angels are among the highest drawing teams on the list. For some reason I always figured they drew about as well as the A’s and that the A’s could look to Anaheim as a model for how to turn around a franchise. As it turns out, the two teams really aren’t very comparable.
The bad news is our beloved A’s are among the bottom of the heap. The good news is that nobody can call A’s fans fair weather! Only Pittsburg and Florida have had a worse attendance relative to team wins than the A’s. Even during the Haas era, when the team was considered a "large market" franchise and their ballpark was often mentioned in the same breath as Dodger stadium, the A’s were not drawing like a large market team. The team still needed to produce almost 86 wins per year to achieve average attendance. Nothing to balk at, especially considering the attendance during the reigns of the other owners, but still a number that would place the team in the bottom-half of the league. How much could a new stadium help? Shown below are the teams with new or renovated stadiums, with the win/attendance values split between the old and new ballpark.
Since so many teams have built new ballparks, there are several case studies to learn from. Prior to their move to new facilities, Pittsburg, Cleveland, and San Francisco all had attendance figures comparable to the A’s current situation. Certainly, the A’s would want to avoid a situation like what has happened in Pittsburg. The Pirates have been able to achieve the average increase in attendance figures observed when opening a new park, but their figures were so poor to begin with that the new values are still quite poor.
Cleveland and San Francisco are models the A’s would certainly hope to emulate. Reminiscent of the current situation in Oakland, their previous home parks had reputations for being among the worst parks in the league. Perhaps with a better ownership group and a brand spankin’ new ballpark downtown or on the Oakland waterfront, the team can/could have made a similar kind of turn around. However, with the crown jewel of modern ballparks only a few miles away, who knows how that would affect the popularity of an Oakland ballpark? When Pac Bell opened in 2000, there was a large drop in A’s attendance relative to team quality that year, especially considering they won the division that year on the last day of the season. This suggests that the Giants were able to bring some naïve A’s fans over to the dark side. A’s attendance did rebound to pre-Pac Bell levels by 2003, but one has to wonder whether attendance would have been significantly better during this time period if the Giants still played at Candlestick? I think the answer is a resounding yes, but I’m sure others will disagree.
I’m not even going to get into how a move to San Jose or elsewhere might affect attendance. That has already been discussed elsewhere, including here, here, and pretty much daily here.
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65 comments
Comments
Great read and great post!
But I’m too tired to type anymore…
:q
Nite-nite…
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by mrod on Mar 16, 2009 1:27 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If Pittsburgh were really "pittsburg"
They’d really have an attendance problem. A three-team market??
But, seriously good work. The bottom line is that this has always been an underperforming franchise. The comparison to the Giants breaks down for one fundamental reason— they got to new stadium land first, and the A’s simply cannot compete in Oakland, even if by some miracle a new park could even be built there. The move to San Jose is the one shot in this market to break a 40 year pattern. Some of the East Bay fan base will remain and the addition of what will quickly become a very avid base in the South Bay (and on down to Santa Cruz, Salinas, Monterey, etc..) with strong corporate backing will easily trump what Oakland can offer.
If the Raiders hadn’t come back…. if the economy and/or political leadership in Oakland were different…if the Giants hadn’t built Pac Bell Park—- but those ifs are gone now. It’s “Do you know the way to San Jose”?, or Portland. Let’s hope that five years from now we’ll have the former.
by windyfelix on Mar 16, 2009 7:38 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This is really well done!
In addition to the Raider moves referenced above, the other major events that affect fan following are the various broadcast deals. When you cite “ownership” as a factor in attendance, one way that ownership can have an impact is its media strategy. Other than KSFO, I don’t recall the A’s ever being on a strong radio station, and the TV has always been well below average.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Mar 16, 2009 7:44 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks!
As for the media strategy, this is a huge problem. Not only does the A’s radio flagship have weak signal, but the 680 is the alternative. It’s like the A’s are democrats and Fox news is the only news station (or not to invoke a CSV, the A’s are Repubs and MSNBC is the only station). I was flipping channels this past Friday and I couldn’t believe my ears when I went past KNBR. Murph and Mac were opening mocking the A’s. I heard something to the affect of: “Daddy can I go to the coliseum?” " ‘Bleep’ the colesium! Let’s go across the Bay to a real ballpark."
And yet since it is the only game in town the A’s still support the station by doing interviews there. That same morning Nomar was doing an interview. Should the A’s boycott KNBR?
I actually did hear football talk on 860 last night. We need to somehow boost that signal and change the programming to make it sports talk 24/7.
by gojohn10 on Mar 16, 2009 8:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mac and Murph can suck it
for their reference to PacBell (ATT&T or whatever phone company named it today)—-there is an F-ing slide in the outfield.
Go to McDonalds if you want a slide.
Go to Disneyland if you want rides.
Go to a ballpark if you want to watch a team grind it out with a hot dog in hand.
Go A’s!
—-ahh but i do love how you are sooo close to the field that you can really tell how much the Giants suck, and then you can download that fact to your PDA right inside the stadium…..
"Whom the Gods wish to destroy they first call promising."--Cyril Connolly, Enemies of Promise
by WhiteElephant on Mar 16, 2009 7:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The A's used to be on KNBR - can't get much stronger than that.
Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!
by Monday Fan on Mar 20, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
For what it's worth
Attendance should always be included in game reports. I don’t mean here, but the official game reports (any you see on mlb.com, espn.com, or in the paper) should absolutely include that information whether it’s truly meaningful or not.
by thejd44 on Mar 16, 2009 8:28 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
it quite often is
and is always included in the Gameday and Boxscore.
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by Zonis on Mar 16, 2009 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't mean boxscores...
I meant the write ups by the beat writers. It seems like every article starts with, “The A’s played team X in front of 12,000 fans last night…”
by gojohn10 on Mar 16, 2009 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the writeups always say
“before an announced crowd of 12,000.” That’s because the number the team gives to the media is the number of tickets sold, not the number of butts which are keeping seats warm. Last year I remember being at a number of games on weeknights where the attendance was stated as a little over 10,000, but there couldn’t have been more than 5,000-6,000 people in the stadium
by Soaker on Mar 16, 2009 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know what you mean
Game reports always have attendance regardless of team. I’ve written game reports. It’s just a thing you include, often in the first paragraph.
by thejd44 on Mar 17, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow!
Truly great work
Rec’d
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by elcroata on Mar 16, 2009 8:28 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Very well done.
I wonder how all of this relates to the bottom line of profit/loss. From what I’ve heard, the Haas era A’s may have drawn and performed really well, but the Haas family still operated the A’s at a loss. Also, Tampa Bay operated at a profit despite lousy performance (prior to 2008) and lousy attendance. I have no data, only my crappy memory of unsubstantiated rumors….any thoughts?
Anyway, great fanpost! Rec’d.
by oblique on Mar 16, 2009 8:52 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It's posts like this....
that make this site both unique and worthwhile.
Thank you for a fantastic post. Truely interesting.
by A'sFanInLondonUK on Mar 16, 2009 10:03 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd suggest the post Haas dropoff ...
has more to do with the advent of Telecom to be Named Later Park, the bastardization of the Coliseum (the process of bastardizing probably more than the actual outcome — keep in mind that the year it opened, for a portion of the season, the A’s were playing in Las Vegas in a 12k or so seat field — that’ll drive down attendance.), Barry Bonds’ presence across the Bay and Mark McGwire’s absence in Oakland (which, granted, may or may not have occurred under Haas).
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Mar 16, 2009 1:08 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I suspect you are right
However, short of polling conducting public polling I think this is the best analysis we have.
by gojohn10 on Mar 16, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's solid enough analysis, don't get me wrong ...
it effectively confirms what we all know — attendance in Oakland has been reliably sub par. I do think at this point it would be fair to cut out the oldest data — I think the Connie Mack years make the situation look worse than it is today …
I’m just questioning one of his interpretations of the data.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Mar 16, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
err ... your ...
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Mar 16, 2009 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ITYM Charlie Finley
black dirt live again
by andeux on Mar 16, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh ... yeah ...
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Mar 16, 2009 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, great job gojohn10!!
This is amazing stuff. One thing I’ve noticed with some teams is that attendance will spike upwards the year after a team has a monster year. Season ticket sales go up during that off-season with the fond memories of the playoffs, World Series or whatever was achieved. You may want to add that to your analysis.
by BillyWannabeane on Mar 16, 2009 1:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
There certainly is a carry-over affect from previous years success.
I was going to mention it, but I forgot. Glad you did. Thanks!
by gojohn10 on Mar 16, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
On any given Sunday
you know how bad teams can inexplicably beat good teams, and MLB does that quite a bit. So any visit to the ballpark will have a good chance of the Athletics not winning. I think winning has to be tied to identifiable player personalities to create good attendance. IMO, thus the 1974 A’s, though winners, did not draw well, because the team personalities were not “worthy” to the fans, whereas the 1988-1990 teams, with Eckerseley, McGwire, Canseco, Lansford, two Hendersons, Bob Welch (27-game winner) Dave Stewart….you have to have a certain “core” of veteran, excellent players, regardless of simply posting wins, that bring people to the ballpark. Although the “Bash Brothers” were re-united for the 1997 season, they were not the same, and the lack of winning, no pitchers among “the best of the best” make a difference. The Angels are not a surprise, as they had Nolan Ryan many of those years, and…like Sandy Koufax, was worth the price of attendance by himself. Weather makes an added factor. Many times I have NOT gone to a game, even with a great matchup and unquenched Athletics ardor, because it was too dang cold to sit in a concrete bowl, with icy “Marine Layer” winds penetrating clothing and psyche. Anaheim and Chavez Ravine, they can be great on a summer night in June, while the Coli is perfectly Arctic…even more so in May and April.
Put a stadium up by Skyline Blvd, at the ridgetop, away from traffic, up in some “heat” (but not too hot) and attendance will boom boom….all in MHO.
'I never predict anything, and I never will.' Paul Gascoigne, footballer
by One won lost won on Mar 16, 2009 3:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
Reggie, Rollie, Catfish, Captain Sal… all of these guys hold, and held, a special place for fan’s of the A’s in the early 70’s. At least the fans from that era that I know. Joe Rudi is another crowd favorite that comes up frequently in conversations I have had with the older fans I know. And there is always a Gene Tennace was “clutch” diatribe in those conversations as well.
I think those crappy attendance years can be attributed to the A’s being brand new to the area and competing with a team that had been established over a 10 year period.
But honestly, it doesn’t matter what you or I think is at the root of crappy attendance at any particular point… there is a pretty long history and pretty ugly numbers when you dive into them like this. This sort of invalidates a lot of the “everything was perfect when the Haas family owned them” mentality.
I am not an Oakland hater, but I do get tired of Oakland fanatics having shifting reasons for all of the bad years… I mean, when attendance has never really been great all the “explanations” become excuses. 8 years above average out of 4 decades with 15 post season appearances is telling, no matter how anyone wants to spin it or explain it away.
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by jeffro on Mar 16, 2009 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could the area just be crap for baseball?
The Warriors might not win 30 games this season and yet they draw near capacity every night for prices that start in the $40 range.
I know their nearest competitor is Sacremento, and that makes a huge difference, but clearly people pay to watch sports and park in the same parking lot as A’s fans.
So whats the real deal??
Maybe this is a weak community for baseball.
Real fans would pack a crap stadium.
Especially at the prices the A’s are offering.
Is San Jose really going to be better? So they better business deals (maybe a Fanta slide or an Apple in the outfield) but they will still share fans with that other team while making it plenty difficult for East Bay folks to ever get to a game before it starts on a weekday and really distance themselves from the Northern Cal crowd.
"Whom the Gods wish to destroy they first call promising."--Cyril Connolly, Enemies of Promise
by WhiteElephant on Mar 16, 2009 7:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In response to Marine Layer
I took some pictures inside the Coliseum, to record the “ambience”, late last season. It is simply, unabashedly crappy looking inside the hallways…pipes, bare concrete, dim lighting…say what you will about “the action is on the field”, I feel it is inexcusable to charge money to have to pass through such a facility. I hold my nose, but, as the indoor arena next door illustrates (and they ain’t cheap seats, no way, for the Warriors) if you feel safe, comfortable (i.e., NOT fifty-two degrees F, wind, and 70% humidity) you will attend more games. Candlestick Park was adjacent to freeway/parking on one side, and a dangerous neighborhood on the other, and it had poor attendance. The Coli is similar.
Alameda-Oakland Joint Powers, at least get up to Ikea standards, and paint the concrete!
'I never predict anything, and I never will.' Paul Gascoigne, footballer
by One won lost won on Mar 16, 2009 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
please don't paint the concrete.
sorry, i know it is old but you don’t give your grandma a face lift just cause she gets wrinkles.
(especially if IKEA says so)
"Whom the Gods wish to destroy they first call promising."--Cyril Connolly, Enemies of Promise
by WhiteElephant on Mar 17, 2009 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but you may want to ask her to wear something with a higher neckline
and to cover her mid-riff.
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by DMOAS on Mar 17, 2009 9:56 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
true.
it is possibly the architect in me.
i love the raw materials.
"Whom the Gods wish to destroy they first call promising."--Cyril Connolly, Enemies of Promise
by WhiteElephant on Mar 19, 2009 8:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Personally
I think the problem is we’re not getting the casual fans. Casual fans care more about the extras than they do about the team. When Pac Bell opened, we lost the casual fan that would choose Oakland over Candlestick. It has little to do with Oakland itself and everything to do with the comparison of stadium experiences and the catering towards more than baseball.
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by DMOAS on Mar 16, 2009 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
"It's like déjà vu all over again." -yogi berra
by Cheezombie on Mar 16, 2009 10:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
good point.
its hard to draw casual fans without perks or a big name player in the line-up.
"Whom the Gods wish to destroy they first call promising."--Cyril Connolly, Enemies of Promise
by WhiteElephant on Mar 17, 2009 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Warriors are not analagous to the A's
1. Basketball attendance is much different than Baseball
2. One team in the 6th largest metropolitan Area
3. You could actually make a case that the Warriors are under achievers in terms of franchise value and % of capacity sold.
4. Over the long term the Warriors have not always been as successful with attendance or revenue as they are now and this is because of the post 2006 playoff bounce.
5. You could use this same argument in favor of San Jose by noting the Sharks success (Higher % Capacity, never been below 90)
myspace music
by jeffro on Mar 17, 2009 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sharks are different
only hockey team around for many miles, and inside the arena it is very posh and acceptable. If you took someone who didn’t like sports to a game, they could have a decent time at the Shark Tank. Wouldn’t say so at the Coli.
I agree with all the comments about losing the casual fan to the Giants, with their better facility.
'I never predict anything, and I never will.' Paul Gascoigne, footballer
by One won lost won on Mar 18, 2009 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The giants attendance was no better than the A's
right after the A’s moved
"It's like déjà vu all over again." -yogi berra
by Cheezombie on Mar 16, 2009 10:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have we seriously gotten to the point where simple probability statistics have become "how bad teams can inexplicably beat good teams"?
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by iamawesomer on Mar 16, 2009 3:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
reply fail obv :(
Can't get enough of the Oakland A's? Visit Oaktown Awesomer's. For further statistical analysis, Beyond the Box Score.
by iamawesomer on Mar 16, 2009 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't phrase that very well
I was attempting to say that, unlike NFL (14-2 records, 12-4 records) or the NBA (59-22) (comparing Laker attendance vs Clipper attendance) the probability of any particular MLB game being a win or loss is typically (in the mind of the casual game attender) pretty much 50-50. I think therefore the idea of winning/losing as it relates to attendance is not the defining factor in average game attendance. Just my opinion. And not very well articulated here…again.
The Dodgers and Angels have had poor W-L years, but not a “13th out of 14 teams” attendance result. The two LA teams have very good weather!
'I never predict anything, and I never will.' Paul Gascoigne, footballer
by One won lost won on Mar 16, 2009 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's all about what the standings look like, plus media hype
not whether it’s a 50-50 chance of winning. Plus, people tend to go to the games where there’s a smaller chance of winning(against the better teams)
"It's like déjà vu all over again." -yogi berra
by Cheezombie on Mar 16, 2009 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very interesting
I’d be curious to see how the history (both on the field and off) of a few other teams would look like in comparison to the average. One thing seems clear, the A’s need to either have a really good team for a prolonged time and/or the Giants to suck OR a new stadium (Oakland, SJ or otherwise in the bay area) to get above average attendance.
It’s definitely not the stadium itself (or at least not entirely the stadium) that causes the supposed below average attendance. Though none of that correlates to profit, at least not directly, within your analysis, but that wasn’t what you were doing.
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by DMOAS on Mar 16, 2009 3:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It's interesting analysis
But I think you’re missing the fact that below average performance seems to (and, rationally, should) create a disproportionate drop in attendance.
I think your ultimate conclusion (that the A’s don’t get the support they should) is correct, but I think our placement on the list has a lot more to do with the terrible teams in the late 70s and almost the entire 90s than it does with having the third worst support in MLB. Basically, I don’t think it’s an accident that most of the teams with “poor support” in terms of wins for avg. attendance are crappy teams and most of the teams with “good support” have much stronger histories.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Mar 16, 2009 4:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Over 40 years all of these teams have gone through dry spells. Teams like Miluakee are almost always in one but out perform the A’s and Braves and Twins… I think your generalizing a bit. Doesn’t the fact that the data spans over 4 decades kind fo account for the hot and cold streaks? The A’s were in the playoffs half of the 70’s… wouldn’t that make up for the drop in the late 70’s attendance when they were bad… the A’s have been in the playoffs almost every other year on average, that’s hardly a crappy team over 40 years.
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by jeffro on Mar 16, 2009 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It certainly helps.
That said, the Pirates, Marlins, Rays, Nats, Giants, and Twins are no one’s idea of storied franchises.
And yes, I understand that the A’s support is weaker than you’d expect (you’ll note I said that twice above). You’ll also note that when the team dips significantly below average, attendance free-falls. This, of course, makes perfect sense because once a team is out of the race there’s a lot less incentive to see games. (Incidentally, this effect makes pre-wild card and post-wild card comparisons sort of apples/oranges since so many more teams have something to play for so much longer now).
I also think the analysis would be stronger if it was normalized for park size (i.e. % of capacity sold rather than raw numbers) but I don’t know how much of an effect that would have or whether it is ultimately helpful.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Mar 16, 2009 7:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your comment makes me feel even more strongly
that the facility and the weather is an uphill factor….accelerating poor attendance for nondescript, .500 teams, and blunting increased attendance for a good product on the field.
MLB got rid of the KingDome, got rid of several “bowls” and the Coli is the only “bowl” where baseball is being played in the AL. That exacerbates the situation. You see the details of baseball-specific stadiums on television, and you get a negative feeling scanning the Coli while attending the game, IMO. So you limit your return trips. And, that was (last year) after watching a couple of thrilling 9th inning comeback wins at the Coli.
“dented bowl” I might add, with Mt. Davis.
'I never predict anything, and I never will.' Paul Gascoigne, footballer
by One won lost won on Mar 16, 2009 9:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can certainly see facility and weather making a big difference
There’s no doubt that the Cubs get what they get because of Wrigley, as the most extreme example. I also agree there’s some inertia effect in that poor attendance begets poor attendance.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Mar 16, 2009 9:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cubs are also a national team
Lots of games broadcast on WGN, which almost anybody with cable gets. People will actually pilgrimage from Nebraska to see the Cubs. The odds of that happening without seeing them on TV are slim.
The real shame is that baseball is increasingly relegated to cable only sports networks which, of course, cater only to sports fans. You don’t see the games unless you’re looking for them.
by Jernskogen on Mar 20, 2009 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think the weather is as big a problem as the facility
myspace music
by jeffro on Mar 17, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
neither help
Some stay home because the Coli feels ghetto, some stay home because 3-4 hours in biting wind doesn’t go over well.
It would rule if the A’s went green for their next stadium. Piezoelectric powered seat warmers anybody?
by Jernskogen on Mar 21, 2009 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Pirates and Giants
Are storied franchises from a lot of perspectives. But other than that, I don’t have quibble with what you are saying :)
myspace music
by jeffro on Mar 17, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice job.
Very interesting analysis and data, and recommended. One thing you didn’t point out that jumps out at me is that the Bay area has a rich history of offering crappy support for baseball. I wonder if San Jose would be another SF after the shiny wore off, or just another Pittsburgh—same for Oakland, for that matter.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Mar 16, 2009 7:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think it's just that the Bay Area just isn't much of a baseball town.
It’s always been more of a football town.
"It's like déjà vu all over again." -yogi berra
by Cheezombie on Mar 16, 2009 11:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Many fabled Yankees came from San Francisco
and the PCL had two teams in SF for a while, with a third in Oakland. It’s always been a big sports area, ever since the Gold Rush. But I can see the argument that people prefer to participate here more, rather than watch.
'I never predict anything, and I never will.' Paul Gascoigne, footballer
by One won lost won on Mar 18, 2009 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sweet
What is Mission Reds, San Francisco Seals and Oakland Oaks ALex.
I’ll take how does stuff from pre 1940 relate to modern sports attendance and interest for $2000.
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by jeffro on Mar 19, 2009 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
heheheheh
very creative!
'I never predict anything, and I never will.' Paul Gascoigne, footballer
by One won lost won on Mar 19, 2009 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My favorite old minor league team
Well, Bay Area teams of the past are the Santa Rosa Prune Pickers and the San Leandor Cherry Pickers of the Central California League
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by jeffro on Mar 20, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Cherry Pickers!
One of my baseball coaches back in the 70s told me the Cherry Pickers played at the old San Leandro Ballpark where the San Leandro BART station now sits.
There was also an auto racing track, Oakland Stadium (sometimes called Oakland Speedway), in San Leandro where Bayfair Mall is now. If you ever noticed the bar across from Bayfair on E14th Street called The Stadium Club and wondered why they call it that, there’s your answer. It used to be across the street from Oakland Stadium. My Dad has an old map of the East Bay from the 1950s that shows the Oakland Stadium on it. They put in drive-in movies and the mall after the race track closed.
Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!
by Monday Fan on Mar 20, 2009 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now I feel really old!
I remember that ballpark.
"You have to score to win"~Rickey Henderson
by lynnzgal on Mar 20, 2009 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great work gojohn10
I don’t have much to add to your analysis because I’ve never looked at attendance in such a broad manner. I do have a few observations based on my study of game-to-game attendance.
For the 2007 season I added a standard deviation number to my Attendance Watch sidebar. It really gets to the heart of the A’s current attendance problems, though I imagine it goes back to other eras as well. In 2007, StDev was 6,213. In 2008, it was 7,140. The Giants were at 3,620 last year, around 3,000 the year before. KC was at 7,157, FLA – 6,663, PIT – 8,702.
Informally, you can take the average attendance mark (19,923), subtract the StDev (13,710), subtract 30% of that figure for early advance sales/groups/suites, and you’d have something resembling the total season ticket subscriptions (9,597). That makes the rest of ticket sales walk-ups and late advance sales (with the exception of Yankees/Red Sox/Giants games).
There’s an aggregate effect of all the various negative factors contributing to poor attendance. It starts off with the Coliseum, coupled with negative reaction to higher prices and tarping off the third deck. In April and May weather is a factor. June’s usually a good month because of the warmup and interleague games. By July, the team has established how competitive it is and will set the second half attendance trend from that, good or bad. Even the number of home games against NYY/BOS has an effect (45,000 per series). The fanbase is notoriously slow to react to changes in on-field performance, especially positive ones.
by vertig0 on Mar 16, 2009 8:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
i think another reason for attendance boosts in June is that kids get out of school.
When i was in high school a few years ago, i never went to many games during the first couple months, but once school got out my buddies and i would go all the time.
"It's like déjà vu all over again." -yogi berra
by Cheezombie on Mar 16, 2009 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
I think it’s more common for people who didn’t live in Oakland or one of the surrounding cities. My childhood was spent in Oakland, Alameda and San Leandro. It didn’t take long to get home from the Coliseum so my folks didn’t object to me going to games when I had school the next morning. My cousins who lived in the more distant suburbs almost never went to weeknight games until school was out because they couldn’t get home at a decent hour.
Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!
by Monday Fan on Mar 20, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Awsome read!
Thanks
"You Went Full Retard, Man - Never Go Full Retard." --Kirk Lazarus
by Ovale Fan on Mar 18, 2009 6:15 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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