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MAC: A Good or Bad Thing?

Star-divide

After trading away several players, the A's have restocked... blah blah blah. 

We all know that the A's went into rebuilding mode a couple of years ago, and that we're on the verge of seeing the fruits of Beane's labor. Anderson, Cahill and Mazzaro have been getting all the attention so far this ST, but for all intents and purposes, I'm going to throw Gonzalez (of the Gio variety), who has Zito-like potential and Simmons, who will probably be Joe Blanton sooner rather than later.

(If you don't believe me regarding Simmons and Gonzalez, read the next two paragrahps. If you're alright with this, skip the next two. Okay, thanks.)

Let me clarify my comparisons. Gonzalez and Zito both have problems with the BB/9 rates (Zito for nibbling, and Gonzalez probably for both nibbling and just plain control issues). Both have big (read: GOOD) looping curves that they work off and get many fly balls. Both were #2 prospects for Oakland before they made it to the pros, with Gonzalez #26 in 2008 and Zito #41 overall (BA). So, all things aside, Gio does have Zito-like potential, whether it be one that played in Oakland or San Francisco.

As far as Simmons and Blanton, the similarities are pretty obvious. Both are hittable guys that have very good control and don't strike many people out. Compare Simmons 2008 (H/9: 9.9, HR/9: 0.7, BB/9: 2.1, K/9: 7.9) to Blanton's 2004 (H/9: 10.2, HR/9: 0.7; BB/9: 1.7, K/9: 7.3). Both would be very valuable as a number four starter.

 

Okay, now that we have that cleared up, let's get down to business. This Spring Training has been so exciting because G-SMAC, K-Hill and the Gang, the Little 3 + Gio and James, whatever you want to call them, have tons of potential, and should anchor the A's rotation for years to come. At least until Fautino, Ross, or Ynoa and his beautiful eyes oust one of them.

With Duchscherer's health in question, the A's rotation is in worrisome at best. Gallagher has had his injury problems. Eveland had a good season last year with shaky peripherals. Braden may or may not have a screwball, but he does have a tattoo of a mustache on his index finger.

With a healthy Duke, the fifth spot in the rotation would have been up for grabs, with Gio, Outman, Gonzalez (of the Edgar variety) and Jerome "I could have been good but then I got fat" Williams. But with the first spot and the last spot in question, a whole lot of people have been clamoring over SMAC, calling for rotation spots given to them right out of the box.

That, folks, is a bad idea.

Anderson and Cahill have had 12 combined starts above A+. Mazzaro has had always impressed scouts, but his numbers only came together last year at AA. If this is exciting, it's also an obvious sign of inconsistency. Also, in his five starts at AAA (small sample size alert!) he posted an ERA of 6.15 with a WHIP of 1.72.

So why do people want to throw them into the fire? Because they have potential! And yes, they have all the potential in the world. Oakland has arguably the best and most pitching prospects in all of baseball, and I'm just as excited as everybody else is for when Ynoa cures cancer with his beautiful blue eyes.

But, also like most of you, I want to make the playoffs. I want to make the Angels cry. I want the world to know how lucky they have been the last few years and to remember that Oakland has historically shat in their mouths.

History will tell you that throwing inexperienced rookies (yes, it's redundant, but considering they've had very, very little experience over AA combined and that they're only 21 or 22, it's true) into the fire probably doesn't bode well for them or the team. Oakland is in an interesting position in that they are in a spot to contend and graduate some very good prospects.

Let's look at some guys. Take Edinson Volquez, for example. He tore it up last year in his first full year. But most people don't remember that he appeared in 2005 at age 21 and put up an ERA of 14.22. He appeared again in 2006 and put up a WHIP of 2.06.

Or Dan Haren and his 5.08 ERA at age 22 with the Cardinals.

Kazmir and his 5.67 ERA at age 20. Cueto's ERA of 4.81 at 22. Lester's 4.76 at 22 and 4.57 at 23. Remember Fausto's ERA of 5.42 and all of his blown saves with the Indians at age 22?

These are all guys that fared relatively well in their first taste of the show, but all of these guys there are a whole bunch (Hmm... like Gio or Gallagher, for instance?) that put up real ugly numbers. On the other end, there are only a few Lincecums and Lirianos and Clemens' and Pedros and Zitos and Hudsons (but not Mulders because he put up some not so beautiful numbers in his first year) that dominate.

SMAC may be capable of putting up tolerable numbers, but I think ultimately that most of us are too excited and too anxious to watch them bloom before our (not as beautiful has Ynoa's) eyes. At 21 or 22 years old, I doubt they are mentally ready. And I don't want to risk the A's possible playoff run because everybody's so antsy to see if they are the real deal. It could ruin our chances at competing. It could mess with their headas and give them Rich Hill syndrome.

I don't see any possible way that putting them in the rotation can help us in any significant way. Especially when you consider the fact that the likelihood of hitting on all three of them instantly is even more unlikely, it's a huge risk. Maybe it keeps us neutral. Maybe I'm just an idiot, but I don't think Beane went all out in his quest to compete this year. There are certain safety measures he took, which is why we got low risk-low reward guys like Edgar and Jerome to fill in a 5th spot. He didn't want to lock any pitchers up long term, because the A's have such a glut of talent in the minors that will take over very soon. But in taking these safety measures, he put contention this year at risk. I don't think he built a rotation that's capable of competing, but the A's almost always outpitch their expectations.

Anyway, what do you guys think?

Comment 165 comments  |  7 recs  | 

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definitely valid concerns all...

but on the flip side, the A’s have a remarkable track record of not messing up young prospects, like you mentioned in conjunction with rich hill (todd van poppel notwithstanding, but i think he’s a different case). so health permitting, i think it may not be the worst idea to let them take their lumps early, since it looks like our options look thin.

worse thing to do, imho, is to trot out mediocrity simply for the sake of keeping the youngsters in the minors when they actually could be performing better than their alternatives.

by tas7b on Mar 12, 2009 10:31 PM PDT reply actions  

I would necessarily say it's trotting out mediocrity

But the worse thing to do, in my opinion, would be to risk our season by letting these guys pitch. Remember Daric Barton’s season last year? And the fact that they wouldn’t send him back to AAA?

If these guys struggle, we’re not just back to square one. If these guys struggle, then we’re already X games behind the Angels.

by NateHST on Mar 12, 2009 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

i should've stated my premise

that any one of the MAC has a good chance to visibly outperform our current rotation options (duke, eveland, gallagher, braden, gio, outman). you mentioned that pitching MAC would “risk our season.” not to crash the party, but i just don’t see how we would have a season to risk in the first place with those six guys as the mainstay of our rotation. i would be very surprised, and very happy, if 5 of those 6 do perform well enough to keep us in contention, in which case i’d agree that their present performance level probably is better than what MAC would offer.

to sum up, i’m guessing we’d probably agree that if the present performance levels of MAC and other guys are similar, it’s better to go w/ the older guys; but it’d be worth having the kids take some lumps if they can perform visibly better than their alternatives. no?

by tas7b on Mar 13, 2009 6:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

+1
worse thing to do, imho, is to trot out mediocrity simply for the sake of keeping the youngsters in the minors when they actually could be performing better than their alternative

This is exactly right. This decision ought to be made entirely on the basis of whether or not any of the MAC will perform better than the Gonzalezes, Williams, or Outman, period.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Mar 14, 2009 8:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, two weeks of Trevor Cahill is totally worth an entire year of him in 2015

Fuck that team. We’ll be Angels fans by then.

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 15, 2009 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Now it's two weeks?

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Mar 15, 2009 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's 20 days from whenever the first day of the season that counts for service time is

if you really want to get technical. I don’t know what that day is.

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 15, 2009 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

ah jeez would you just relax already?

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox

by mrod on Mar 15, 2009 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

+1

"We were s--, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Mar 12, 2009 10:51 PM PDT reply actions  

Good thoughts

I couldn’t agree more with you on basically all points. A few thoughts and adds:

The Simmons and Blanton comparison is stunning, I really hope he becomes Blantonesque.

Two, again I agree that not starting them wouldn’t mean trotting out mediocrity. On the contrary it would be the most thorough approach to figuring out what we had. I want to see Gio, I want to see Braden, I want to see Gallagher, I want to see Eveland. These guys are all capable of putting together a sub-4 ERA season (on merit rather than luck). Simmons I put in a class below, but he still has potential and if someone is hurt I like the idea of checking him out.

This is the optimum strategy on all three main fronts (that I can think of…) – present team, future team, organizational value/trade front.

Present: Strictly in terms of base-rate numbers, the odds suggest the more experienced pitchers (yes even Gio is far more experienced) will outperform MAC this season in the majors. Even Eveland was a top-flight~ish Harenesque prospect in the minors. Bottom line, just in terms of 09 production the MAC downside outweighs the upside and the A’s are good enough that they should play it safe, at least to begin with.

Future: No brainer, keeping MAC in the minors means we get them longer. Also means that MAC would be allowed to develop more in the minors, which if anything would probably make them less likely to bust.

Value/Trades: If we rush MAC, we are taking away spots from the other potentially above-average aforementioned pitchers. However, if we let these pitchers pitch and they pitch well we could establish an immense surplus of pitching and loot some people in trades. Also, rushing MAC is more likely to decrease their trade value since they would be more likely to tank in the majors than minors.

I miss Chad God

by ChadGod on Mar 12, 2009 11:28 PM PDT reply actions  

Id also like to add

Before everyone got ST crazy and ravenous for baseball the vast majority of AN seemed to agree that they should stay in the minors. So they have looked good in limited ST. Sample size is small and the intensity/skill-level of ST is probably a better comp to AAA than the majors, if that.

I miss Chad God

by ChadGod on Mar 12, 2009 11:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree with everything you've said...

"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra

by brenarlo on Mar 13, 2009 7:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

Keeping them in the minors doesn't mean we "get them longer"

We still get them for six years (or six and half) regardless.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Mar 14, 2009 8:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'd be inclined to take a slightly less self-righteous tone on issues where I didn't actually know the rules

A player becomes a free agent at the end of any season in which he has compiled 6 years of MLB service time or more and is not under contract to a club. If he has 5 years and 171 days, he will not become a free agent.

Any of the A’s pitching prospects who currently has zero service days, and gets promoted to the majors, has only two possible outcomes.

1. He fails and gets sent down. Who knows what happens after that— shaken confidence, whatever.
2. He succeeds and does not get sent down. Because you stupidly promoted him to the majors at the start of a year, he will end the year with a full year of service time. In five years, assuming the bottom doesn’t drop out of his performance in the meantime, he will become a free agent.

Had you waited for three freaking weeks at the start of the year, he would instead have 5 years and 171 days of time and be with your team for another whole season.

This isn’t even touching on another issue, which is that wasting service time of unready players when they can’t help your club (and I don’t think either of Anderson or Cahill would help the club) reduces the amount of time that they will actually do anything worthwhile.

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 15, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not knowing something never stopped you from taking a self-righteous tone.

Not that I took such a tone, in any case. Six and a half, six and three quarters, big deal. The issue is breaking camp with the five best pitchers you have available to you, because every game counts. You don’t deliberately make your team worse to save service time, period, even if it’s just for three weeks.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Mar 15, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

why don't you?

You’re not really giving a reason for your last sentence.

it seems to me 3 weeks this year is less important than a full year down the road.

by ohmangoAs on Mar 15, 2009 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Because we are in contention for the playoffs this year,

and therefore have a 1 in 8 chance of winning the World Series. If we were the Rangers, I would probably agree with this idea. Losing two games, however, could be the difference in us not making the playoffs. That is not a chance worth taking.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Mar 15, 2009 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

F***ing Pedro Martinez at his peak wasn't worth 2 wins every 3 starts

A typical Cy Young winner is worth about 1 win every 4 starts. A league-average pitcher, which is an optimistic assessment of Cahill/Anderson’s skills at this point, is worth about one win every 15 starts over a replacement level pitcher.

The chances of that 0.2 win determining a playoff race… well, what it really means is “a 1-in-5 chance to win one game,” so the odds are 1/5 of whatever it is that the teams end up in a playoff race decided by one game. I won’t pretend to know what the odds of that are, but let’s call it 10% to be really generous. 1/5 of that is 2%.

The value of a playoff appearance has been variously calculated at about $25 million. 2% of that is $500,000.

So you’re contending that Year Seven of Trevor Cahill is worth less than $500,000. No, I’m sorry. This is the definition of a chance worth taking.

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 15, 2009 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not using a calculator.

It helps in this case. If whomever you put in the rotation is pitching like shit out of spring training, but you put him there anyway because you’re saving Cahill and Anderson for six years from now, you’re going to lose those games.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Mar 15, 2009 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

50 years of sabermetric research just died of despair

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 15, 2009 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wouldn't be the first time.

What’s amazing about sabermetric research, as much as I value it, is that it isn’t always right. In fact, it’s wrong a staggering amount of the time. Human observation always can—and always will—defy statistical trends. If you can observe a clear, marked difference between what Anderson or Cahill will give you in comparison to the alternatives, you should go with that observation.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Mar 15, 2009 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

There are really two points here

1. If human observation tells you that 3 starts now is worth 30 starts from THE SAME PITCHER later,you need to have your eyes checked.

It’s not just that you’re wrong— this is not a matter of opinion, as compared to (say) the argument about free agents on the thread below. You are literally arguing that 3 is greater than 30.

2. You have no idea how well Trevor Cahill will do. For that matter, you have no idea how well Edgar Gonzalez will do. Your position is supported by nothing but your own say-so. You just decree that Trevor Cahill is an autowin and Edgar Gonzalez is an autoloss. Well, I hate to break this to you, but baseball does not work like that. Over a typical 20-inning span, a horrible replacement starter is only about 3 runs worse than an average one. It is ridiculous hubris to suggest that you can, in advance, determine that those three runs will be exactly the three runs that cost the A’s the playoff spot.

I can’t speak for other people, but personally, I find the most illuminating aspect of sabermetrics is not that it tells you what you can know, but what you cannot know. You cannot even know that pitching me (an autoloss if there ever was one) over Trevor Cahill for 3 starts would cost the A’s a playoff berth, although at least there the chances would probably be measurably large. You most certainly cannot know that the much more nuanced comparison between Trevor Cahill and Edgar Gonzalez would do so.

This is why people speak in the language of probabilities and averages— because they have to. What you CAN say is that the odds of the A’s missing the playoffs because of holding Cahill back 3 weeks are trivially small, because the average performance from Cahill is not very much better, from a season-long perspective, than that of Gonzalez on a start-by-start basis.

Starting the first three games down 1-0 wouldn’t kill the season either. When you put it in those terms, your position becomes ludicrous. Would you start 3 games— just 3, out of 162— down 1-0 to get Trevor Cahill for an entire extra season? Of course you would. It’s barely worth thinking about.

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 15, 2009 7:01 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

on that we can agree!!!

But which one? and is it a mammal?

See below for why the “3 weeks” business is a near-total red herring. In the real world, as opposed to the “theoretical but I’m always right” world that a fair amount of people who hide behind sabermetric attire exist in, it’s not 3 weeks. More likely 5,6, even 8-10. Organizations let their spring training decisions play out. or they wait for another factor (Duke after injury, for example) to reemerge, or they approach a trade which might make the situation better with some caution, so as to maximize its impact, or they give the guy in place a few more starts/weeks to sort things out.

So a MAC decision or decisions might involve much more than 3 or 4 games— it could easily twice or even three times that. If you project a pennant race to be close, and you have allowed 1 or 2 of your rotation spots to be occupied by inferior ability compared to the young guys waiting on the farm for 20-25% of the season, now you are going far beyond a 1-0 deficit in three games. You might have sacrificed 3 wins for the sake of an arbitration clock. Every little “stupid” decision like that adds up, to use a word someone likes to throw around here a lot.

by windyfelix on Mar 15, 2009 7:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Evan Longoria

Says hi.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Mar 15, 2009 8:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Other decisions that the team makes might or might not be the right ones at the time they are made

They are completely irrelevant to this discussion, and if the team screws some aspect of their prospects’ handling up later on, that doesn’t invalidate the original decision. The Bonderman/Ted Lilly trade didn’t become a bad one just because he was later traded for Bobby Kielty. It was the Kielty trade that was the disaster in that sequence.

Evaluating those later decisions (such as the related question of whether to wait for a player to move beyond Super Two status or to give him the fourth year of arbitration— a far more tricky and case-by-case question than that of the extra year of control) requires [gasp] nuanced evaluation, not slavish obedience to some bright-line rule like “always promote pitchers if you think they’re the best right this second.”

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 15, 2009 8:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

One thing that should be factored in, though,

is the chance that Cahill might be injured/useless by year 6-7. That’s one factor in favor of getting something now in exchange for something later. You’re assuming 30 starts, but many many pitchers have failed to make 30 starts by year 6-7 of their career.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 16, 2009 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

What's the point of factoring in nuance

when it’ll just be dismissed as irrelevant “math”?

I’d be more inclined to put in the effort if I had any sense that there was a purpose to it.

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 16, 2009 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

as for #1

I would argue that the 3 vs 30 argument while relatively correct is actually less than 3 vs 30 when you take into account the discount rate of performance now versus later and the likelyhood that in the next 5 years Cahill blows his arm out and never eventually pitches in year 7.

But yes other than that you are 100% correct.

Some of the most violent things I’ve ever seen were at Raiders games. And I’ve been to jail. - leopold bloom

by designatedforassignment on Mar 15, 2009 7:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

There is no discount rate of performance now versus later as a general rule

It might operate in a particular instance, but the sort of teams that should discount future performance for present tend to be aging veteran teams running out of time to win a championship. (The Tigers, say. Maybe throwing Porcello to the wolves is worth it for them. I doubt it, though.) Rising young teams like the A’s do not fit into that pattern.

I do recognize that Cahill might suffer a career-ending injury, but the odds of him actually specifically missing that particular season are not that high (even though the odds of a pitcher missing SOME time due to injury are very high).

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 15, 2009 8:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Congratulations on writing a lot of stuff.

As should have been clear from my last response, I couldn’t care less about the math behind this particular decision, because this decision is about fielding the best team you can, which is always paramount.

A team that wants to win puts themselves in the best position they can to win, every single day. What other advantages is a team that will deliberately play someone who doesn’t give themselves the best possible chance to win going to abdicate?

I am happy to have the problem of losing Anderson a year early if we win the division by one game this year and win the World Series. Further, the fatalistic way in which we view all good players as by necessity being gone from Oakland after six years is ridiculous and unnecessary.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Mar 15, 2009 8:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

So, in other words, you're wrong but you don't care?

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Mar 15, 2009 8:02 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

No.

I am adhering to a principle that means more than math, which is to do your best regardless of the circumstances.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Mar 15, 2009 8:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Do you play your best players

in the last preseason game in football?

There are plenty of times when not doing your “best” is the best idea.

Some of the most violent things I’ve ever seen were at Raiders games. And I’ve been to jail. - leopold bloom

by designatedforassignment on Mar 15, 2009 8:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

No, you don't.

On account of the fact that the preseason doesn’t count for anything. Throwing regular season games is a different matter entirely.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Mar 15, 2009 8:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

So you never use your crappy reliever?

Not even in a blowout?

Some of the most violent things I’ve ever seen were at Raiders games. And I’ve been to jail. - leopold bloom

by designatedforassignment on Mar 15, 2009 8:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Again, no.

Because trying to win a game that’s impossible to win is detrimental to winning tomorrow’s game. What, exactly, is the point of throwing meaningful games you stand a good chance of winning on the off chance it will help you win games six fucking years from now?

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Mar 15, 2009 8:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Explain to me this idea

of a regular season game where a team is losing by many runs (blowout) that is literally impossible to win.

If you can outline a scenario that is literally impossible to win—barring any ridiculousness like a plane crashing into the A’s dugout, then you will have made a valid point. Until then…

AND you’re not THROWING games by pitching Edgar Gonzalez or Josh Outman or Gio instead of Mazzaro or Anderson or Cahill, as PT outlined above. Especially when you consider all the points I made in the original article that say a 21-22 year old rookie pitcher will likely fare pretty badly.

by NateHST on Mar 15, 2009 8:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

You know very well what I mean.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Mar 15, 2009 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

No, see

You don’t get to get away with that.

You’re advocating a rigid, arbitrary rule which is to be applied regardless of circumstances. You don’t get to explain away edge cases. You get to justify them.

Some other cases that you get to justify:

Repeatedly pitching your ace starter on 2 days’ rest until his arm falls off.

Continuing to play veterans every day instead of evaluating prospects at the end of a lost season.

Playing your starters until they are so exhausted that even a backup is actually better than them on THAT DAY, instead of resting them periodically to be at peak efficiency throughout the season.

Never making any rebuilding trades, ever. If it hurts the team right now, you cannot do it. Doesn’t matter how good the return is.

Enjoy!

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 15, 2009 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Spoken like a true lawyer.

Again, you know very well what the answers to those questions are.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Mar 15, 2009 9:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, he does

Specifically: “I guess my rule isn’t as good as I thought”

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Mar 15, 2009 9:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

No.

A bunch of clearly stupid questions that have only tangential relevance to the subject at hand really aren’t useful, except for scoring points. This is the difference between rhetoric and philosophy.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Mar 15, 2009 9:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Jeepers

Paul’s Post above (the long one) wasn’t just math. It’s not a very substantive conversation if you don’t engage people’s points.

To summarize, 3 weeks of Cahill at 22 is not as good as a year of cahill at 28.

Since we’d presumably win more with a year of Cahill, your argument that we need to win now needs some sort of justification, no?

by ohmangoAs on Mar 15, 2009 9:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

I have already justified my stance.

I don’t give a shit about six years from now, because we have a chance to win the World Series next year.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Mar 15, 2009 9:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wow! Maybe I should back off of this thread....

I see both sides of this argument here, but I think I’m gonna have to go with the side that says, “Free beer and naked women!”.

:)

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox

by mrod on Mar 15, 2009 11:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

A team that wants to win puts themselves in the best position they can to win, every single day.

There are really two ways to interpret this comment. One way is to assume that you meant it literally, in which case all of the “stupid questions” I asked above are perfectly appropriate.

Another way is to assume that you meant a team should maximize its total number of wins for all time, in which case trading off many future wins for many fewer current wins doesn’t wash. “Every single day” means every single day, not just tomorrow.

There is no way to read this quote to mean “the team should maximize its wins during the upcoming season at all costs, at the expense of future seasons.” So not only are you continuing to argue silly positions (why on earth would a World Series in 2009 be better than one in 2010, or 2015?), you can’t even stick to the same silly position.

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 15, 2009 11:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

My question to jeepers is:

If you don’t give a s*** about six years from now, are you at least glad the A’s did in 2003?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 16, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

"I'm just as excited as everybody else is for when Ynoa cures cancer with his beautiful blue eyes."

Classic! I love it.

Me thinks you do bring up some great points, NateST. I think what it will boil down to is how management views all of these young arms and who, in their minds, gives the A’s the best chance to win ballgames. If Beane, Geren, and Co. decide that one of the SMAC is ready for prime time more than one of the others then so be it. Myself, I also feel like Gio has yet to show just hoe good he can be. Just thinking out loud……..cheers!

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox

by mrod on Mar 13, 2009 1:19 AM PDT reply actions  

ROFL, I loved that line as well.

Even though we all know that is not possible to cure cancer with those dreamy blues. Perhaps world hunger but common…cancer? Surely you jest.

"You Went Full Retard, Man - Never Go Full Retard." --Kirk Lazarus

by Ovale Fan on Mar 13, 2009 4:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

"Just how good"....sorry.

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox

by mrod on Mar 13, 2009 1:20 AM PDT reply actions  

It doesn't matter what we think

It does matter what Billy Beane thinks. And as of yesterday he is decidedly not shutting the door on at least one of MAC being in this rotation. The fact that Mazzaro and Cahill got the ball first in their last games is meaningful— those are now the positions most likely to face a real major league lineup increasingly getting the ST cobwebs out of the system.

And it is the issue of beating the Angels— this year— that is driving this entire question. Beane knows better than anybody that there is risk involved with Duke— or why else would someone have thrown up the bullpen trial balloon with Slusser. Beane knows Gallagher is still only potentia. Beane knows that 5 of the 6 following A’s pitchers— not red Sox, or Rangers, or Rays, or Reds— outperformed last year’s Eveland and Braden in their first full season as starters: Hudson, Zito. Harden, Blanton and Lidle. Only Mulder fell short. It is the very real prospect that at least one of MAC will be better—or healthier— than perhaps all of the above four supposed rotation stalwarts— let alone Gio or Edgar or Simmons or Outman that is tantalizing him right now.

Listen he’s aware of their lack of experience and all the risks associated with this call as anyone. He understands the arbitration clock better than anyone. But because of the economy, because of the Fremont collapse, because, perhaps, he sees the end of his tenure here— Beane wants to win now. This year. Knowing that 2010+ could be even better but that this franchise would get a huge shot in the arm with a playoff appearance this year. Young/rookie pitchers led this team to contention and the playoffs nearly a decade ago. Beane said, after all, “we’re getting the old band together”. And MAC is the best evidence of that. The truth is that, given Duke’s injury situation, at least one of them— and maybe two— could very well be their most reliable pitcher RIGHT NOW. Just as Hudson and Zito were when they came up. There is no reason to hold that kind of talent back.

by windyfelix on Mar 13, 2009 6:18 AM PDT reply actions  

Is there an echo in here?

I was thinking a lot of those same things. “There is no reason to hold that kind of talent back.”..There is only one reason to not give at least one of these guys a chance..the clock….and I agree with your recognition of BB’s emphasis on this season. I have seen Mazzaro and Cahill start, thought they looked great, the A’s staff think they look great, what is left to discuss? My guess is Mazzaro is in the rotation on opening day, Cahill by the beginning of May, and Anderson as soon as someone starts leaking oil.

"No offense, Nico, but starcitygames.com used to be the AN of Magic sites "

by tresselfan on Mar 13, 2009 6:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

+1

Bob Geren and Ken Macha both enjoy jai lai.

by CarGon's Jock on Mar 13, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's fairly clear that the only reason Beane is going for it this year is because Wolff forced him to

He doesn’t do the “diametric 180-degree reversal of policy” thing very often… mostly because when you do that, you end up doing stupid things like giving up Carlos Gonzalez for a shot-in-the-dark prayer at the playoffs.

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 13, 2009 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

The big difference being that

it is very easy to see that Holliday will give the A’s a better chance to make the playoffs in ’09 then Street/Gonzalez/Smith. Not in 2010 (and beyond), but certainly in 2009.

There is nothing so clear cut about throwing any of the MAC into the rotation—it is possible that could actually hurt our chances in 2009. If we were truly in a “must win in 2009” mode, Billy should probably be looking to trade one of the MAC for a Peavy type front line SP (not that I am advocating this, or that it has to be Peavy, just that BB should be looking for this type of deal if we really are in a “must win in 2009” mode).

by AsFanInLA on Mar 13, 2009 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

Fortunately, it doesn't appear the A's payroll would support that

which at least gives Beane a plausible excuse for not pursuing it.

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 14, 2009 12:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

Interesting that....

as the evidence grows that BB is following a different drummer than the one you’d like him to, it is because “Wolff forced him to.”

I don’t think BB gets “forced” to do much of anything. I think he is best— and one of the best ever in the sports business— at seeing a clear path through changing circumstances. This team can win now, and it needs to win now— and still keep a solid foundation for the future. And I think that the odds of beating out the Angels are substantially better than a “shot in the dark”. And he dispatched Gonzalez knowing he had Sweeney, Buck and Cunningham in the fold— hardly a “stupid thing”.

You’ve now essentially called Beane “stupid” and an “idiot” on two successive days— I guess he and Keith Law are hoisting a tall one somewhere and chuckling.

by windyfelix on Mar 13, 2009 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

(see my comment below)

PT isn’t just making up this idea that Wolff is pressuring Beane. There seems to be some legitimacy to the claim.

Save Rajai Davis

by oakinboston on Mar 13, 2009 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sure

Owners (and BB is one of them, remember) and managers have a relationship. Nudges come from various directions. The economy is hardly a non-event, nor is the Fremont collapse. But the implication of what our resident genius is saying is that by a) acquiring Holliday; or b) Giambi, or c) Cabrera, or d) considering MAC for the rotation, Beane has junked his ruling philosophy in favor of a “win now” approach that he is being “forced to do”. And that, and I’m quoting now, these actions are either “stupid” or the product of an “idiot” (If any of MAC throws 150+ innings).

If nothing else, BB deserves a lot better treatment than that in this space after what he’s done with the resources he’s had over the last 10 years. I prefer to think that he is adaptable, not dogmatic or rigid, and able to bring the best possible result out of whatever situation he and his franchise faces.

by windyfelix on Mar 13, 2009 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm pretty sure PT just said Holliday. Nothing about the others.

And he’s not alone in his assessment of that trade by any means. There are many folk here, including me, that find the Holliday trade bewildering unless you consider the possibility of pressure from owners. I’d rather not bring up that topic again because it’s been beaten to death. Maybe mid-season we can bring it up for old-times sake.

careful with the language- you are undermining your point by turning this into a personal vendetta.

Save Rajai Davis

by oakinboston on Mar 13, 2009 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

And maybe Carlos Gonzalez is the second coming of Karim Garcia

Carlos was about the 25th best prospect in baseball when we got him. The scouting reports said Garcia was the 7th best prospect in 1996, and the 20th best in 1997. He wound up hitting .241 .279 .424 in his major league career. Carlos had a woeful year last year (.242 .273 .361). And Garcia’s early minor league years look better than do CarGon’s.
Karim Garcia’s career.
Carlos Gonzalez’s career so far.

Maybe Billy was taking advantage of Carlos’ status of “still being young and still considered a prospect”. I might trade Carlos for 1 year of Holliday plus 2 high draft picks.

by BillyWannabeane on Mar 13, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Great point.

Huston Street is the only known quantity in that deal.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Mar 14, 2009 8:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not Personal.. not a vendetta

And I’m not the one that should be careful with language. Someone called BB’s actions “stupid” or said he was an “idiot” to be considering MAC for over 150 innings— I thought the man needed some defending. Or better put, since he hardly needs defending, deserved defending. Since he wouldn’t deal directly with the offender as Keith Law did.

by windyfelix on Mar 13, 2009 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think Lew Wolff is not a good baseball GM

and I think Beane’s actions this offseason have been essentially forced by Lew Wolff.

In what way is that showing any disrespect to Beane? His actions suddenly make a lot of sense when they’re put in the context of an arbitrary, stupid win-now mandate from ownership. At least he’s put himself in a position where he can get most (not all) of the value he expended on Holliday back at the deadline, and where next year’s payroll isn’t overcommitted in advance.

I love Beane’s body of work as a GM. I’m way more comfortable blaming this crappy offseason on the ownership than on him.

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 14, 2009 12:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not that you're wrong, because it does make a certain amount of sense

But it could also be Beane is tired of losing. He decided to take a shot at ‘09 without heavily mortgaging the team’s future. He was already trading Street, saw what little was available. Saw little value in Smith. So he really gave up Gonz for a year of Holliday. Hardly risking the future. He surrounds his kids with vets to fill in what he saw as another crap year like the last two years. Without the players he acquired, this team would look rather miserably bad. With them, a couple of breaks go their way, who knows. Within a year or two when the bulk of our prospects make the bigs, those players and their contracts will be out of the way and all but Holliday is in a position to be dumped/DFAed mid-season or anytime after if he feels they’re blocking one of the prospects.

Or Wolff made him do it.

In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!

by DMOAS on Mar 14, 2009 1:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

Remember 1999?

Appier, Olivares and Velarde were all established veterans. The Big Three was either up or about to burst out of the pipeline; Grieve, Tejada, Chavez formed a young position player foundation (well, 2 of them panned out). Beane tried to “win now” without sacrificing the future, which got even better. It’s not a perfect analogy but it isn’t like he hasn’t done thie before. And what about 2005-06? Loaiza, Kotsay, Kendall and Thomas were all established veterans.

by windyfelix on Mar 14, 2009 6:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

I still think Beane saw a possible opportunity

to contend in 2009 that he didn’t see in 2008.

That doesn’t mean that he didn’t also get that message from Wolff.

by OaklandSi on Mar 14, 2009 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

Both points are valid.

I think Beane and Wolff are on the same page. I think they both want to win and that they have a good relationship, all things considered.

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox

by mrod on Mar 14, 2009 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's funny (weird, not haha)

but I really think this is Beane’s plan B or C. I think he had other moves in the works to build on ‘09 and move the team into ’10 but that got hijacked when his budget got slashed. But there’s clearly an opportunity in ’09 with or without Holliday.

In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!

by DMOAS on Mar 14, 2009 11:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Crappy offseason?

We’re dramatically better than we were a year ago.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Mar 15, 2009 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes but the goal was for contention

And do you think our pitching staff is built solidly enough to compete? And I mean without a doubt in your mind, are we going to compete with LAA?

Our infield has suddenly become old and injury prone and our pitching staff is loaded with #4s and DLs. It was a good offseason in that we became a better team, but not in the sense that the A’s put themselves hands down in a spot to contend with LAA.

by Mer. on Mar 15, 2009 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

The starting pitching is a question mark, yes.

However, the moves that the A’s made did at least give them offensive, and in some cases, upgrades in defense. At the very least, they are deeper than they were last year and there is a legit heart of the order this year. Do I think the A’s will compete with the Angels for the division? Absolutely….Will they win the West/advance to the playoffs? We’ll see….

That’s why they play the season.

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox

by mrod on Mar 15, 2009 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

The only plus performer the A's picked up was obtained by a drastic overpay

A bad trade and a bunch of average-or-worse roster filler is not a good offseason.

I’d call the free agent signings average, since they didn’t really harm the team even if they also didn’t help a whole lot, but the Holliday trade was so awful it pushes the offseason well into “crappy” territory for me.

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 15, 2009 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery

by mikeA on Mar 15, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think they did well getting 1 yr deals for a good price.
I regret seeing CarGon go, but Holliday provides a much needed bat.
Giambi could be considered plus as well given the levity he brings to a team.
The team has teeth now, 2008 did not.

sanity is insanities underpants...

by brian.only on Mar 15, 2009 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Also

Holliday is going into his FA year, he’ll be motivated to perform well.
Its a win for us what will get in trades or picks.

sanity is insanities underpants...

by brian.only on Mar 15, 2009 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

We'll have to differ on the Holliday trade

As for the free agent signings, you can call them average all you want. I haven’t heard them described that way anywhere else.

We replaced our three worst performers from last year (Crosby, Barton, and Hannahan) with good players (Cabrera, Giambi, and Chavez/Nomar). That’s a huge upgrade to the lineup even ignoring that we have one of the very best LFers in baseball.

I’d love to see you show me an analysis that says those changes “didn’t help a whole lot.” I don’t think you can.

In the end, we were a crappy team last year. This year we have a real shot at the playoffs and one of the three best farm systems in baseball. Sounds like an ok change to me.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Mar 15, 2009 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, let's use CHONE for a quick-and-dirty analysis

Giambi vs. Barton: Giambi is about 20 runs better than Barton with the bat over 600 PA (approximated because I’m doing the “600 PA” conversion in my head). However, he’s also 12 runs worse on defense. Barton is also better than the third-best option, so let’s tack on 2 runs for depth and call this a 10-run upgrade for $4 million. Average.

Crosby vs. Cabrera: Cabrera is about 10 runs better with the bat, and actually projected as 2 runs worse with the glove. He’s also more durable, so let’s throw in 2 runs for depth again. 1 win, $4 million. Again, basically average.

Nomar vs. Hannahan: Chavez was going to be playing whatever he was going to be playing anyway, so no fair counting him. CHONE actually thinks this is a downgrade, but it isn’t assuming platooning. If the A’s can limit Nomar to facing righties, he’s probably worth 5 or 10 runs over Hannahan per 600 PA, or 1-2 runs in the playing time he’s likely to get. For his salary, this was an overpay.

Overall, fractionally below average.

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 15, 2009 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

No way in hell do I believe that Cabrera will be worse than Crosby defensively.

"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."

by mikev on Mar 15, 2009 6:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

+1

I am reminded of the famous quote:

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Mar 15, 2009 6:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

You can't tell the truth

without statistics.

and also, if you think a statistic is wrong, the beautiful thing is that you can criticize it, since the methodology is usually explained.

This is starkly in contrast with opinions that are repeated often, without any reason why they are true. You don’t need statistics to make a point here. But you DO need to give a reason for your opinion, or simply couch it as your opinion, and nothing more.

by ohmangoAs on Mar 15, 2009 9:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

By the way

My main concern with the Cabrera signing is that I don’t think he’ll be any better offensively.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Mar 15, 2009 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

I said it was quick and dirty

The point is, it’s marginal either way. Even if Cabrera is 8 runs better instead of 2 runs worse— now the offseason signings are slightly above average instead of slightly below.

Contrast that to the Holliday trade, which I think cost the A’s somewhere in the 8-10 wins range over the life of the deal. It’s an order of magnitude difference in relevance. I conclude that the A’s paid about $25 million to make the team 5 to 7 games worse in the long run. That’s a crappy offseason, folks.

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 15, 2009 7:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

What long run???

Huston street? Greg smith? Carlos Gonzalez? There is no guarantee that any of those three would be playing a role here in the long run. Or that their replacements wouldn’t be as good or better. So now you’re saying that the money spent for one year of Holliday could have been spent for several years of someone else that would be better in the long run? I find that logic a stretch— you have to identify the player(s), acquire the player(s)against the competition, and then assume that player(s) would be better than your own younger and cheaper alternatives— in the long run. We’ll all just have to see. But I think you’re in the business of prpducing mediocrity year after year, whereas Beane is shooting for something a bit higher.

by windyfelix on Mar 15, 2009 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not following
8-10 wins range over the life of the deal.

I assume that “life of the deal” refers to Streets 2 years ‘til FA, as well as the next 6 years for CarGon and 5 years of Smith. 10 wins over 13 seasons over the 4-5 wins Holliday could provide in 1 season doesn’t sound like that bad a trade-off for Oakland.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Mar 15, 2009 7:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

timing

I don’t think that the trade in itself was bad, but rather at an inopportune time. The Holliday asset comes to bear with all its value this season, when I think even with Beane’s moves we still have way to many question marks (see starting rotation). Carlos Gonzalez ’s value (and the net from trading Street) are likely to have provided value when the MAC are more settled and likely to add more value to the team rather than a time when they are going to be rushed.

I think where Beane did do well is by trading Street early in a market with a glut of closers available and getting good value for him.

Some of the most violent things I’ve ever seen were at Raiders games. And I’ve been to jail. - leopold bloom

by designatedforassignment on Mar 15, 2009 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

+1

You can’t just multiply WAR times years signed. There’s (huge) value to having a lot of WAR consolidated in one place. Street isn’t that kind of player, Smith absolutely isn’t that kind of player. CarGon may or may not be. Holliday is.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Mar 15, 2009 8:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'd actually evaluate it as follows:

2 wins per season for C-Gon (not much more than he was worth last season— I know he sucked with the bat, but he was a defensive maven; this is a rather conservative projection)
1.5 wins per season for Street (conservative based on his performance to date)
1 random win for Smith (not much of a loss)

So you’re really looking at 16 vs. 5. Adding 1-3 wins as a “bounty” for Holliday’s concentrated value puts the difference at that 8-10 figure I cited.

Yes, the 16 wins requires more roster space, but 1. 8 seasons plus a few months of Smith as a 5th/6th starter is not THAT many, 2. Gonzalez has considerable upside from that projection, and 3. Street’s roster spot is a low-value bullpen spot in which he’s actually producing at an elite level.

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 15, 2009 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ok

So if you don’t do anything at all with the two roster spots this year (and the three in future years), and don’t really give much added value to elite/concentrated wins it’s a bad deal.

If, however, you sign two useful players for those roster spots (as Oakland has already done) your analysis falls on its face.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Mar 15, 2009 9:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Who exactly are these "two useful players"?

Edgar Gonzalez and Russ Springer? Forgive me for not falling out of my chair with enthusiasm…

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 16, 2009 12:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not worried about your math

What I’m saying that any time you trade long term assets for a short term boost in production the odds are you are looking at coming out in the negative 4-5 years down the road. That’s simply the nature of the beast.

Put another way, there’d be almost no incentive (save, perhaps, fiscal) for a team to trade a short term asset like Holliday if it didn’t expect to come out ahead in the long run. So assuming Holliday = Street+CarGon+Smith in 2009, then a 10 win gain by the Rockies over 10 productive seasons from the Oakland 3 seems like a fair price for the A’s to pay.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Mar 15, 2009 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sure there is

Trading 4 wins now for 4 wins later can absolutely be a sensible move if you’re a non-competitive team. In fact, depending on circumstances, it might even be worth it to trade 4 wins now for LESS than 4 wins later (if you’re really 100% sure you have zero chance of contending, as sometimes happens at the deadline). That’s going to be pretty rare, but I suppose it could happen, maybe if you’re trying to move a DH at the deadline in the last year of his contract and there’s only one team looking to acquire one.

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 15, 2009 11:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

And your point?

Paul, I’m agreeing with your basic premise. The A’s traded future wins for immediate gain.

But there’s always a cost to doing business and if the A’s only give up 10 wins from 3 players over 10 productive seasons than the price is acceptable. 50 wins from the same 3 in the same time frame would be extreme.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Mar 16, 2009 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

I will grant you this

The improvement created by Cabrera, Giambi and Garciaparra is likely to be small— something in the order of 2-3 wins. Presuming that both Crosby and Barton would have a) at least partially recovered or b) achieved somewhat of a 2nd season breakout.

2-3 wins might be everything in this division, however. Which is the same point on the pitchers. Your “three weeks” of service time would really be at least 4 and, very likely 6 or more, given the way teams actually make in-season decisions. What if Duke is coming back? Why not give Gio or Gallagher 2 or 3 more starts to work the kinks out? If we need to trade Eveland or Braden, who’s the trading partner?

So if we give up 5-6 weeks of a better option (or two) for the rotation, that’s all of a sudden 20-25% of a season. And now it might be another 1-2 game difference. Those small number of games cost by key decisions start to add up.

by windyfelix on Mar 15, 2009 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

The accepted (and sensable) method of relating dollars to wins is x dollars per WAR

not x dollars per WA(actual player being replaced). Most FA signings do not involve replacing a replacement level player. It is not at all easy to do better than a one win upgrade with a relatively low cost FA signing. By your method, the sum of all FA signings would be a massive overpay.

Secondly, when a team is in or close to contention and has money to spend, it is stupid for the F.O. to sit on its hands and not sign someone because the money is higher than that player is generically worth in dollars per WAR in a given year. Even if these FA signings were “average” by some objective method, which they are not, in the A’s position (weak division, reasonable chance of contention after Holliday deal), a series of “average” FA signings (or even a series of below average 1 yr contracts) is much better than doing nothing. The point is to win as many games as possible, not to maximize wins per dollar. Basically, your entire post is wrong.

With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery

by mikeA on Mar 15, 2009 7:44 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

What mikeA said.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Mar 15, 2009 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Doing nothing would have been much, much worse than average...

The only teams that do that are either rebuilding teams mailing in the season ahead of time and teams that have run out of money. If you haven’t improved your win projection between November 10 and March 1 by 3 or 4 games, you’ve lost ground. As it turns out, that’s just about what the A’s did (apart from Holliday), and they paid a fairly moderate price for it.

I acknowledge the point about sticking to WAR as opposed to WABenchPlayer. You’re right— that was not good analysis on my part. But there has to be some sort of context into which you put a free agent signing. Otherwise, you’d rate every team giving the same player the same contract as equally intelligent, regardless of their current roster situation, which can’t be right.

It could well be that I’m underpricing “WABP”, though. Let’s bump up the standard price for that to $6 million and include the Ellis contract, which somehow got lost in this. Now the Cabrera/Giambi/Nomar troika is about $10M for about $13M of value. Ellis is about $5M for about $17.5M of value. All told you’re paying $18M (can’t forget Springer) for around $32M of value. If I’m not mistaken, the “$4 million per WAR” calculation comes out at about the same number.

By that measurement, the free agent part of the offseason looks a lot better, and in fact, quite a bit above average. [Don’t anyone tell me I can’t admit when I’m wrong!] But I have the Holliday trade as being SO bad (costing the A’s $30-40 million in value) that it pushes the overall offseason well into the red.

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 15, 2009 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

O.K. I'll say it: you're wrong!

And you admitted it…..

:0

I’m just fascinated at how you guys go at it like this tit for tat with stats coming out of your collective “……………….s”

Cheers! love it boys!

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox

by mrod on Mar 15, 2009 11:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ah, but how much is he spending on spice?
I think he is best— and one of the best ever in the sports business— at seeing a clear path through changing circumstances

Does this mean Beane is the Paul Atreides of baseball?

I like important stuff just as much as the next guy, but please, for a little while, deliver us from meaning, baseball. That's your greatest glory, and we thank you for it very, very much. -- Craig Calcaterra

by JLeverenz on Mar 13, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nice Dune reference

"No offense, Nico, but starcitygames.com used to be the AN of Magic sites "

by tresselfan on Mar 13, 2009 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

heh!

sanity is insanities underpants...

by brian.only on Mar 13, 2009 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

PT, I don't understand how in one breath

you talk about “for a shot-in-the-dark prayer at the playoffs,” and in another breath report that according to pythag, etc. the A’s figure to win or be dead even in the AL West. Seriously, which is it? (No snark intended here, just confused.)

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 13, 2009 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

They're like even in Pythag, like you say

With the Angels I assume, and the Rangers not far behind. Considering how much variance there is in the baseball season, 1 game pythag advantage means nearly nothing pretty much. A 5-6 game lead sure, when you’re that much better than your opponents a 3-4 game luck reversal doesn’t mean much. But to be basically even with another team not far behind means its more or less a crapshoot.

(PT can correct me if I’m wrong but that’s what I think he’s saying)

Can't get enough of the Oakland A's? Visit Oaktown Awesomer's. For further statistical analysis, Beyond the Box Score.

by iamawesomer on Mar 13, 2009 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, a "crapshoot" is a long long way from a "shot in the dark prayer"

It’s really not a shot in the dark prayer at all.

With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery

by mikeA on Mar 13, 2009 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

A crapshoot between 3 teams (Rangers + Ms = ~1 for sake of simplicity)

Is 33.3% chance

“shot in the dark,” even the most favorable light evokes a percentage range of 15-25%.

When the Mariners traded for Bedard THEY took a shot in the dark. By comparison, trading for Holliday was a shot in the butt (Canseco style).

I miss Chad God

by ChadGod on Mar 13, 2009 7:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

25% is average in a four team division, not a shot in the dark.

(since we all know the wild card is unlikely to come out of the AL west)

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Mar 13, 2009 8:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Rangers are nowhere near the A's and Angels, IMO

They lost Bradley and have gained nothing in the all-important pitching dept. They’re a .500 team at best, I think.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 14, 2009 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

The almost immediate health collapse of every single previously-injured player on the team has left me in a somewhat pessimistic mood

But I didn’t word that well, mostly because any time I think about the Holliday trade, I start grinding my teeth and imagining the sound of fingernails on chalkboards. It tempts me to hyperbolic exaggerations.

I think a more accurate way to put it would be “stupid things like giving up Carlos Gonzalez for a tiny upgrade in the chances of making the playoffs”.

The A’s with Street, Smith, Gonzalez, Joe Crede and Bobby Abreu would be only a game or two worse than with Holliday in 2009, for the same price. (To be fair, they would have had to dump several additional players from the roster, but I can live without Bowen, Grey, Herrera or Copeland.)

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 14, 2009 12:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

What I wonder

is what was the master plan before the economy hit the team. What other pieces did he initially intend to take on when they were talking about the 75-80 million payroll. Holliday in that context, yes a mistake, but everything after that has been damage control.

In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!

by DMOAS on Mar 14, 2009 1:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

well....

a) you have to convince Crede and Abreu to play here. Hardly a guarantee— I seriously doubt they get Abreu; b) you have to assume Smith even makes the rotation. Without getting right into the middle of our other dispute, I think that would have been far from a certainty; c) you have to assume CarGon beats out Sweeney or Buck. maybe-maybe not. Now if you don’t bring Giambi back then Cust can DH and Cargon will play.

Point being— which is why Beane does this job and not you or me— it’s not so simple to have constructed it your way, and with no guarantee that the team “would be only a game or two worse.”

by windyfelix on Mar 14, 2009 6:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

The plan appears to have been to add Holliday and Furcal,

and become the favorites in 2009. I suspect that was “plan A.”

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 14, 2009 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

also the Holliday trade was very early in the offseason

before it became apparent that the free agent market was not going to be lucrative, except for a few players like Teixera, Sabathia, and a couple of others.

Free agents like Abreu and Cabrera thought they were in line for multi-years deals earning alot more than they eventually signed for.

by OaklandSi on Mar 14, 2009 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

Careful on that

There were comments early on from the A’s organization that they (in particular Beane) had foreseen the market slow down. Did they know it would be as bad as it got? I doubt it, but the A’s were definitely prepping to be aggressive in the slower than usual FA market.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Mar 14, 2009 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

Why wouldn't the A's have been able to land Abreu?

He ended up signing a 1 year/$5 million deal plus performance bonuses to play for the Angels. Even assuming he wanted “to play for a contender” I have a hard time imagining he’d have turned down a multi-year deal at $9-10 million annual from the A’s.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Mar 14, 2009 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't have to assume b OR c

Smith just goes into the pot of “starters in the mix”; he might not even have won a rotation spot. I wasn’t even counting him as a gain. Gonzalez likewise just goes into a pile of potential outfield solutions, from which the best 3 would be picked.

I’ll give you a, but really, there were a ton of additional free agents who would have represented upgrades for the $9 million the A’s spent on Holliday. You only have to convince one or two of them.

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 15, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not a single one providing the upgrade to ONE POSITION that Holliday does

To be significantly above average, you need a couple guys who are way above replacement level.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Mar 15, 2009 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

The A's aren't significantly above average, so that "need" is basically irrelevant

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 15, 2009 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Cute, but wrong

And something you frequently ignore in your analysis. When there are only 9 spots in the lineup filling one with a 4 WAR player and the other three with 0 WAR players is significantly better than having 4 1 WAR players.

Not least because, as the A’s offseason shows, it is relatively easy to upgrade three bad players. When you have 4 ok players you’re kind of stuck.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Mar 15, 2009 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

OK, but I'm suggesting actual, live baseball players,

who signed for dollars similar to what Holliday made, who would have made the A’s only slightly worse in the short term.

Another factor that should be taken into account is flexibility. When you’re dealing with long-term contracts, you want those “cornerstone” players, so you don’t get “kind of stuck” with a mediocre contract blocking a position. When you’re just looking at next year, you’ll do just as well using the hole-filling approach, at least until you run out of holes. GMs recognize this, as contracts for elite players are much longer on average than contracts for average players.

Now, if you go into an offseason with 3 holes and you know you need 10 wins to challenge for the division, signing two 1 WAR players to fill two of those holes is not a good idea. But I don’t think that was the case for the A’s this offseason. The goal was something like “85 wins without sacrificing the future,” and that was definitely an achievable goal without Matt Holliday or any other MVP candidates.

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 15, 2009 9:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

PT-

When you get right down to it, I think Billy Beane, in the off season, had his mind made up that he was gonna make a run in 2009 because he saw an opportunity to pounce….and pounce he did. I think Beane made some great moves, Holliday being the catalyst. I said in another thread that Cabrera was starting to make me “reconsider” changing my mind about him. And I would have loved it if Beane had found a way to sign Randy Johnson as well, but oh well…he still made some great additions to this team, Frankly, I feel like I have something to look forward to as an A’s fan this year, for better or for worse.

I consider you to be an educated baseball “fact man” and for that I applaud you…bravo! You provide great insight, do your homework, and your contributions towards discussions give AN an edge, for sure. That said Paul…

However, sometimes I get the feeling that you don’t get as much joy from “watching the game of baseball” as most folks. I could be totally wrong and it’s cool if you want to blast me for it. I just don’t get the sense you really “love the game”….out on the field. C’mon brother!

Tell you what, if you make it out to Opening Day in the North Lot, {AN will be there people!} with a bunch of us crazy folk, I will personally pour you as many shots of “fine tequila” as you see fit, sir. Or, if you have another poison, by all means, speak up mate!

Cheers! -M-Rod

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox

by mrod on Mar 16, 2009 12:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

If you're talking about pure visceral thrills out of watching a sport,

baseball is not #1 on my list, I have to admit. Think I’d have to go for hockey as a sport (although the NHL league format leaves a lot to be desired), or maybe something like slalom skiing.

But in a way, I think that’s kind of a good thing. I’m happy to watch a few innings, wander off for a bit, do some homework, come back, watch a few more, go do something else if it’s out of hand or watch the finish if it’s close. And I can still say something sort of interesting about it afterward. I like my relationship with the game of baseball just fine.

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 16, 2009 12:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

Fair enough, sir.

See, I knew there was a soul in there somewhere….

NHL I have to say is cool when you actually get to watch a game live…..just like baseball.

I never realized how many things you can’t see happening on TV while watching hockey. The same thing happened to me when I went to my first baseball game in my youth. The action on the field with baseball is so much more involved when you are in the stands!

And after finally making it to my first hockey game live, I was blown away!

Man, there is “way more shit going on out there on the ice” than you could possibly imagine! The television experience with hockey is completely lacking, in my opinion…..

So, were we talking about baseball? I forget….

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox

by mrod on Mar 16, 2009 1:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

I understand that Beane is considering them for rotation spots

I was trying to say that everybody wants to win now and also watch these exciting prospects.

You are putting far too much pressure and expectations on these players. There are so many people that just expect them to put up Zito/Mulder/Hudson numbers and the chance of all three doing that is so damn slim. And if and when they have trouble (remember, they are 21-22 year olds and have played in very few games above A+) then you have ultimately jeopardized our chances of contending this year.

If the Angels are as bad as we think they are, then I would elect to make a safe bet—go with Outman or Edgar Gonzalez for the fifth spot. I would expect them to put up average numbers. And with our (hopefully) plus offense, then we should be in contention. If that happens, and SMAC get some experience at AA or above and still fare well, then we can bring them up towards the end of the season.

It’s too much risk; that’s all I’m saying.

by NateHST on Mar 13, 2009 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Personally, I think Mazzaro and Cahill are as safe a bet as Outman

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 13, 2009 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think Outman is still seriously being considered

for the rotation.

I do think Gio and E. Gonzalez are being considered. If Gio goes to the bullpen instead of the rotation or AAA I think that may indicate that the A’s see him as a reliever.

by OaklandSi on Mar 13, 2009 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think Outman is now behind

Anderson, Mazarro and Cahill.

I know these guys are young but I predict at least two of them in the rotation before the AS break. These young guys will feed off each other and while no one expects them not to get rocked occasionally, I think management thinks they are ready considering the improved offense they will have to support them. The current rotation is not going to be good enough to contend without one or two of these guys starting and suceeding.

Gio is not ready IMO for anything but the pen. He is prone to mental meltdowns so far and I would think Anderson is way ahead of him as far as control etc etc. (comparing left handed starters)

by Trainman on Mar 13, 2009 7:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agree with Trainman here as well.

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox

by mrod on Mar 13, 2009 8:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agree with you here, Nico.

Neither Outman or Gonzalez excite me much……

on the other hand, some intimate moments with a goat over a glass of Shiraz……?

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox

by mrod on Mar 13, 2009 8:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

E. Gonzalez that is...

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox

by mrod on Mar 13, 2009 8:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Which is it, Edgar Gonzalez or a goat and a glass of Shiraz?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 14, 2009 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

"If loving you is wrong...

-I don’t wanna be right"

:’>)

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox

by mrod on Mar 14, 2009 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree with your overall sentiments, but Outman/Edgar < MAC best

I see the quality depth chart like this:

1) Duke
2) Eveland
3) Braden
4) Gallagher
5) Gio
6) best looking MAC member based on ST scouting
7) Best looking based on ST scouting of the remaining: Simmons, Outman, Gonzalez, remaining MAC

Only if someone/Duke is hurt am I pro MAC in the rotation. Two pitchers would have to be hurt for me to consider a 2nd.

I miss Chad God

by ChadGod on Mar 13, 2009 7:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Dont have time to develop this thought right now

But I wonder (again) how much “win-now” pressure Beane is actually getting (it’s widely reported at this point, though journalists seem to concede they don’t know just how much pressure there is either) from Wolff, and if that will be a factor in the decision.

To me, it seems it was a significant factor in the Holliday trade, and the idea of sacrificing some future wins for better performance now. Will it translate in this situation?

(purely speculative topic, I realize)

Save Rajai Davis

by oakinboston on Mar 13, 2009 9:05 AM PDT reply actions  

what happened to the idea that Beane saw an opening

to contend in 2009, with the Angels possibly being weaker than in 2008?

by OaklandSi on Mar 13, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Angels look worse in 2010 than in 2009

Granted, the Rangers could be a lot better, and the Mariners have to get better the further away they get from the Bavasi Stupidity Singularity, but overall the division looks even weaker in 2010 than next year.

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 14, 2009 12:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

So what?

That math changes if the angels sign, say, Matt Holliday. This year we may well win the division and get into the playoffs dice-roll. You take that chance when you can, you don’t look for excuses not to.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Mar 15, 2009 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

Amen brotha!

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox

by mrod on Mar 15, 2009 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

+1

sanity is insanities underpants...

by brian.only on Mar 15, 2009 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

If Wolff's been putting pressure, he has been for a long time

The A’s were mentioned in the aftermath of the Jason Bay deal that they had thought about trying to get in on the trade. I wouldn’t be that surprised if Wolff had been putting pressure since last July to contend in 2009 but it was strange to hear directly after the Harden and Blanton deals.

The Holliday trade does not make sense unless it’s to compete in 2009. Putting MAC in the rotation before they’re ready could ruin 2009’s season but worse could ruin the next few seasons. Best case scenario the A’s lose a year of club control. Worst case, the A’s ruin the arms they were depending on. At the very least MAC needs to spend the first month at AAA. It’s just too damn risky to put them in the rotation now for only a possible small upgrade.

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Mar 13, 2009 2:50 PM PDT reply actions  

I agree

if Beane is really considering putting any of them in the starting rotation to begin the season it only makes sense if there is no better option.

by OaklandSi on Mar 13, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's not as if Beane has a rep for being patient while losing

Wolff wanting win know simply means he gave Beane more cash to build the roster.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Mar 14, 2009 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think the idea that starting with these three is to risky from the standpoint of '09 is ridiculous

That would be the only reason for it. There are plenty of good reasons to keep them down, Cahill and Anderson in particular: it increases the medium term and long term injury risk to some extent, being in the minors would leave them free to work on pitches without worrying too much about game results, and the service time cost vs. benefit for ’09 ratio may not be very good.

I don’t see it as a risk for ’09 though, at all. What is a risk is going with Gio/Outman/Edgar/Williams all of whom are very likely to be bad. Here are chone/zips/pecota projections divided by 3:
gio: 5.21*
anderson: 4.90
outman: 5.09
cahill: 4.70
Mazzaro: 5.19
Edgar: 4.93(no pecota, which has everyone with a higher era)
Williams: give me a break.

I don’t think anyone is excited about E. Gonzalez. I don’t understand the notion that going with MAC over Gio/Outman is somehow risky for ‘09. The robots say Cahill and Anderson will be better. And they have better stuff! Gio’s only good pitch is an out pitch to use when he’s lucky enough to get ahead in the count. He will give up lots of BBs and HRs with his strikeouts. Outman has basically nothing but a fastball and no command. These two are not what I would call “ready,” particularly compared to Mazzaro or Anderson. Cahill will probably give up way too many BBs if he’s in the majors, but he will not, I repeat will not get hit hard at all because it is impossible to hit his sinker.

If the only relevant consideration were “win in 2009,” I would be choosing 2 out 3 MAC for the last two spots in the rotation as long as Duke is hurt. Of course all 3 might be worse than Gio/Outman/Edgar/Jerome, but I would not call that a serious “risk.”
*I am profoundly unimpressed with Gio’s stuff. Others disagree….

With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery

by mikeA on Mar 13, 2009 3:34 PM PDT reply actions  

I'm more impressed with Gio's stuff than you are

but I also agree with pretty much everything you just wrote.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Mar 14, 2009 8:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

off topic

This has been on my mind for a while, so I’ll float it now.

the notion that going with MAC over Gio/Outman is somehow

President Obama uses this phrasing all the time (“notion that …. is somehow…”). And here, mikeA did too. I’ve seen it being used a lot more (my dad has started). So, I have two questions:

1. Have people seen this being used more too, or is it just me?
and
2. For those who have noticed themselves using it, is it conscious?

by ohmangoAs on Mar 13, 2009 5:31 PM PDT reply actions  

the notion that mikea used that phrasing because obama uses it is somehow awesome.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Mar 13, 2009 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think when certain phrases get used alot they tend to get repeated

regardless of whether or not they always make sense in context.

Other recent examples include “sea change” , “going forward”, “growing” used as a verb ….

by OaklandSi on Mar 13, 2009 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

It does't strike me as a very conspicuous phrase, and I don't give that much thought to the wording of my posts

I must have gotten it from somewhere, so maybe it’s from Obama. Now that you mention it, I also posted quite a bit in the last few months that I hope we get a new SS because change is called for at that position.

With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery

by mikeA on Mar 13, 2009 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

YES WE CAN!

(get a new Shortstop…and we did!)

PS – This is not a political post.

by thejd44 on Mar 13, 2009 11:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

yes we can

was the angels slogan in 1979

by Future Ed on Mar 14, 2009 1:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

And the Phillies before that

in 1975— Dave Cash did radio ads using that slogan

by windyfelix on Mar 14, 2009 6:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

meet the o-cab, same as the b-croz

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Mar 14, 2009 2:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thank God Beane is the general manager and not some comittee compose of fans.

And since when is a K/9 ratio over seven a guy that “don’t strike many people out”?

by LowcountryJoe on Mar 13, 2009 6:58 PM PDT reply actions  

In the minor leagues, it's indicative of a lack of front-rotation upside

unless there’s some kind of exculpatory explanation for it. There isn’t really, in Simmons’s case— his ideal scenario is basically Brad Radke, who was a good pitcher but never really an ace.

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 14, 2009 12:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

Who are six pitchers I'd love to have in their prime?

Radke is enough of an “ace” for me: A very good, consistent, reliable pitcher who was worthy of getting the ball in Game 1 or Game 5 of an ALDS.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Mar 15, 2009 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

The exculpatory explanation is "hit their 95th performance percentile"

So: if Simmons hits his, he’ll be that good. I’m not holding my breath.

I don’t want to sound like I’m smacking the guy around. I like Simmons… he’s just not a guy with apparent ace upside. He is what he is— a #3 starter prospect with an unusually high chance of becoming that.

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"

by PaulThomas on Mar 15, 2009 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

On that point I will agree with you Paul

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox

by mrod on Mar 15, 2009 6:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

"Is MAC a good thing, or a baaaaaaad thing?"

“Take your time, dear.”

I just remembered I love Eric Chavez.

by Joey C. on Mar 14, 2009 8:48 AM PDT reply actions  

I agree.

 I think you’re right, in that Beane wasn’t able to build the ideal pitching staff— probably because he was feeling pressure from Lew Wolff. The abandoned rebuilding process was probably forced upon him.

However, Outman isn’t that good. Gio is too inconsistent. I feel that Cahill or Anderson is probably going to be the most effective fifth starter that we can come up with. And if our pitching isn’t there, then Beane will either abandon this year or if we are still in contention, then we have the pieces to go out and get a guy like Halladay.

P.S. Great post.

by Mer. on Mar 14, 2009 10:23 PM PDT reply actions  

i agree but I'm not sure we have a choice.

Duke is questionable for the start and the duration of the season in my opinion and it doesn’t appear we are going to be signing a starter. All the focus has been offense and bullpen—-which seems to indicate that the A’s brass has made a decision toward the exciting youth.

I think we are going to see Duke in the pen ultimately. It’s a shame, maybe he could have been a starter, but there isn’t any evidence that his elbow/hip combo can really take the innings.

I still think it would be great to have a vet guy in the rotation to at least be an example and guide for the youngsters.
We tried to get Johnson…is Pedro really a bad idea? Even average performance from a guy who understands his craft at that level would, I think, but a plus to guys as green as ours.

I think Anderson and Edgar have been pretty impressive thus far. But Gallagher or Braden as the No.1—-I feel like more leadership (not too mention skill) is required for that spot—especially given the overall youth of the rotation.

It seems clear that something has to be done…..

"Whom the Gods wish to destroy they first call promising."--Cyril Connolly, Enemies of Promise

by WhiteElephant on Mar 15, 2009 1:30 PM PDT reply actions  

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