Greener Grass, Episode 2: Attack of the Gnome
So now that me and the frog in my pocket have proven beyond the shadow of a doubt (yes I am kidding) that the Bay Area is the best place for the A's to be, we have to try and figure out where to put the lawn gnome? "Lawn gnome?" you ask. Yep, let's pretend the whole Bay Area is one big yard and we want to put a lawn gnome where the greenest grass is. It's fun!
There have been many debates in the blogosphere about where the A's should play (here, here and daily here). Personally, my only position is that the A's should play in the Bay Area. But before I get accused of being an "Oakland Only" person, or a "San Jose Carpetbagger" or some other such nonsense (terms which I have used and regret) I thought I should tell where I am coming from to avoid the appearance of bias. I was born in Oakland and have a great affinity for the city and it's residents. Lake Merritt is gorgeous, especially at night, Rockridge (the Crepevine is my favorite place to eat in the world, try the Tuscan), Piedmont Avenue, the Chabot Space and Science Center, The Oakland Zoo and the executive nine hole (I suck too bad to play 18) at Chabot Golf Center are a few of my favorite places in Oakland.
I have spent a great deal of time in San Jose as well. My favorite spots include the Children's Discovery Museum, THE greatest Egyptian Museum ever, San Pedro Square, The Tech Museum, The San Jose Museum of Art and many other places that I am leaving out. The point here is that both San Jose and Oakland have a lot to offer your Average Joe and Jane. I love them both and I always will no matter where the A's play.
But which place is better for the A's to plop down a new stadium? What criteria do we use to figure this out? I am going to ignore things like "The A's belong in Oakland" and "Territorial Rights" because one is an emotional argument and the other is stupid. Both of these fine cities should be under consideration for a new stadium.
Clearly, the answer is not "Which is a greater city?" If you have never spent time in either of these cities use my list above as a starting point. They both kick major ass and you will thank me for opening your eyes to their splendor. So then we have to get down to some fairly straight forward numbers. They are some of the same numbers we (the frog in my pocket and me) used before, like Average Joe and Jane Index, Fortune 1000 companies but we need to remove the Media Market question, because there is really no advantage for either city as they share a Media Market. We can replace media market with transportation accessibility (look at me talking transportation after I was all gaga over Fremont) and we should also consider funding a stadium, some how, some way.
So, we will use the exact same info from before for the Average Jane and Joe Index. And here it is:
Oakland
CMSA: 7.2 Million, 6th largest in the country
MSA: 4.2 Million, 12th largest in the country
Population Density: 7,126 per square mile
Median Income: $40,055
San Jose
CMSA: 7.2 Million, 6th largest in the country
MSA: 1.8 Million, 31st largest in the country
Population Density: 5,216 per square mile
Median Income: $76,354
So, some numbers might have just jumped off the page at you (a lot like the frog in my pocket jumps at people), I know they did at me. First, Oakland is closer to a lot more people than San Jose is. That is what the MSA tells us. Second, people in San Jose are a lot more spread out than they are in Oaktown. Last the fewer people in San Jose make a buttload more money. How to read these numbers? If I were the owner of the A's the pros and cons of these two scenario's are sort of a wash. I could probably make up for the huge lack of income between the two spots by drawing people in from surrounding communities in Oakland. I could make up for the lack of density in San Jose by the sheer fact that they got a lot more money there.
After the AJandJ Index I got to say it is all tied up, either 1 to 1, or 0 to 0 depending on if your prefer pitching duels or slug fests.
Next comes the Fortune 1000 numbers. If you prefer Oakland, brace yourself cause this is like game 3 of the 1989 world series only it ain't Oakland with all the home runs. We know from our (the frog in my pocket and me) last report that 57 of the 103 Fortune 1000 companies in California are in the Bay Area.
In Oakland, there is only 1 (Clorox, number 474). But in the surrounding area there are more so let's put 'em in Oakland's column for the sake of argument. In Pleasanton, there are 2 (Ross Dress for Less and Safeway, numbers 412 and 55). In Walnut Creek there are 2 (Central Garden and Pet and Long's Drugs, numbers 983 and 453) in San Ramon there is 1 (Chevron, number 3), in Concord there is 1 (Pacer International, number 905) and in Alameda there is 1 (UTStarcom, number 782). But, there are two more in the East Bay and we have to decide who gets 'em.
The challenge is that these two more are in Fremont. Sort of equidistant between San Jose and Oakland, if not exactly. The two companies are Lam Research and Synnex (numbers 759 and 350). I think we should just count them for both.
So after Oakland's turn at the plate, it is 10 Fortune 1000's and San Jose is coming to the plate.
Of the 57 Fortune 1000's in the Bay Area, Silicon Valley has 30. Included in that number is everything from Redwood City south to Cupertino and up the east side to Fremont. I left out a company in Watsonville that could be argued to be part of Silicon Valley, I guess. But the truth is that in close proximity to San Jose there are boatloads of companies. And actually, some of the Companies I put in the A's column are as close to San Jose (Think Pleasanton/San Ramon and 680).
So after the Corporate Dollar Index, it is clearly San Jose/Silicon Valley and this shot lands in the second deck. The score would read San Jose 2, Oaktown 1 if you played it conservatively, but it is probably more like 3 to 1.
Now for the new things. Transportation and Stadium Fundage.
For Transportation it doesn't get much better than Diridon. There is existing Amtrak/ACE, Light Rail and CalTrain. Arguably, Oakland's current site is served as well with BART reaching more communities than Light Rail or CalTrain and the Capitol Corridor/Amtrak line running right there as well. SO how do you grade either site? How bout other potential sites?
A brief caveat, I will forever be pissed off that Uptown Oakland didn't happen. It was the best site in Oakland. It could have been the destination the city center is sorely lacking. But other sites have been mentioned in Oakland. One near Jack London Square and a quarter mile from Lake Merritt BART, for instance. I am not sure what other sites could be considered in San Jose, though I know there always are the rumblings about Great America in Santa Clara. But the fact remains that from a Transportation perspective the two best sites are the two I mentioned first, Diridon and the Coliseum.
Living in the now, they are fairly equal. Looking to the future, not so much. Diridon with BART extensions and High Speed Rail San Jose offers the A's the chance to appeal to people from Sacramento to Merced to Fresno as well as the entire Bay Area. So provided the ballpark in San Jose is in Diridon and in the future, San Jose wins this argument too. Of course the Ballpark is not being built in the future, if at all, so for now let's just say this one is a wash again. This could change with different sites, like in the hills of Oaktown or in South San Jose, but the best of what both cities have to offer from a transit perspective is acceptable. Much more than Fremont, anyway.
So it's either 4-2, 3-2 or 1-0 nothing. San Jose in the lead.
The last question is how do either of these two cities impact the ability to fund a new stadium. There are a bunch of models out there, the now defunct build a village concept was really cool from my perspective but ultimately unfeasible anymore. The Yankees and Mets let the City pay billions for it model won't fly and it shouldn't. The example we should use is AT&T, Pac Bell, SBC, Jewel by the Bay Park/Stadium. There is some debate about how much of a public subsidy the park got, noted Ballpark Fear Monger Neil deMause says it was 10%, noted Portland lover Maury Brown said it was more like 5. But either way here is a breakdown of how the Giants funded their stadium from the most detailed source, the second article I just linked. The Giants used $170 Million (48%) in the form of a loan from Chase, $70 Million (20%) from PSL's, $102 Million (28%) from naming rights and $15 Million (4%) in TIF (tax increment financing). That adds up to $357 million dollars and that doesn't include land acquisition.
So for the A's to replicate this in Oakland, at the Coliseum on the parking lot, there would be no land acquisition costs. They would have to come up with at least $450 Million (actually more if you consider they would need to build at least one parking garage) via naming rights, PSL's and a loan. In San Jose it would be more, because they would have to purchase the land where the Stadium would sit at fair market value, let's say $550 Million in total. So let's look at each and and assign a probability, shall we?
In Oakland 48% would represent a loan of $216 Million. In order for a bank to lay that kind of scratch right now they would need to be assured of some really huge crowds for a really long time. Numbers don't really back this up as a possibility. In San Jose, this would mean a loan of $264 Million. Again... does anyone see a bank willing to give that chunk of change with the current credit conditions? Can San Jose boast of better attendance history than Oakland and the bank can then count on 30,000 a night for the next 20 years? I would say a big 'ol loan like that is not likely for either scenario and it is hard to give either the nod on this point. In Oakland 20% is equal to $90 Million, in San Jose $110 Million. That's a lot of PSL's. Based on the difference in affluence you have to give the nod to San Jose on this. More disposable income, but still... a staggering number. Naming rights... Cisco is already in the bag on this. I don't know if that will apply in Oakland, but for the sake of argument let's say it does. That deal was worth $120 Million over 30 years in Fremont. That number doesn't equal 28% in either scenario, it's 27% in the Oaktown scenario and 22% in San Jose. So there will be some coin to make up. TIF, as explained in the link above, is a mechanism where a city government uses future gains in tax revenue to help fund current development. Basically, the city and developer decide on how much development will increase the tax base and that future money is used to finance debt to complete said development. In San Jose, this would require a public vote. In Oakland, I can't see the future tax revenue increasing by a whole bunch. But in either case, based on the back of the envelope numbers above Oakland would need to come up with 5% of $450 Million, or $22.5 Million and San Jose with 10% of $550 Million, or $55 Million.
After running through this little comparison, I think it is safe to say that the real answer to where they should play in the long run, from an ownership perspective is how this financing model can be tweaked to make the stadium actually happen. As Iggy said, "Who is gonna pay for it?" Or more accurately, how are the A's gonna pay for it? I will personally support a new Oakland stadium or a new San Jose stadium as long as that financing question is answered and it matches deMause's 10% number in San Francisco.
What about you?
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San Jose is the way to go
no question about it
"I think people in this state like BOTH teams," proclaims Nick Aliotti, the Ducks' defensive coordinator. "Except for our hard-core fans, I don't think most Duck fans would have been terribly upset to see Oregon State going to the Rose Bowl."
Another reason he needs to go.
Bravo!
An excellent read and props on all of the research that you did for this post, jeffro. I like both propositions. My question is where do the A’s play while the Coliseum is being renovated? Or are you proposing a new stadium in the Coliseum area?
I think it’s a damned shame the A’s could not get the approval for a waterfront park in downtown Oakland. It would be great if they somehow could re-open those talks for that kind of location.
If not, San Jose would find a place to put the A’s for sure and I’m also certain a stadium proposition would pass if it was put on the ballot. The A’s need to find additional investors if they can’t pony up the majority of the cash themselves. Frankly, I don’t see a shortage of local corporate sponsors, so that could feasibly provide for a bigger chink of change than perhaps you estimated. It sure would create a lot of jobs and local revenue which is never a bad thing. Here’s to the A’s and MLB figuring something out and quick…..cheers!
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
Excellent analysis
Here’s one thing you left out: weather. To my fog-dependent mind, San Jose is far too hot for any outdoor activity on many a summer day (and Sacramento completely out of the question at any time in the baseball season). But I know there are people who like hot weather. The question is, how would it affect the team’s play?
I would think it would just ensure weekend evening games.
By a 605-705 first pitch it should be cool enough. Heck, neither SJ nor Sacto can match the ugly all day heat in Fresno, but we still have our night games with not much of an issue.
"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty
Are you an Eskimo?
Too hot in SJ? Not really. The weather gets warm, but not toasty. You can play outside every day. Think mid 80’s most days, some 90’s.
Close -- a Minnesotan, iirc.

or here (may be nsfw, depending on where you work).
The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus
by The Dogfather on Feb 26, 2009 3:48 PM PST up reply actions
You bet!
Not that it doesn’t get hot in Minnesota in the summer. But we have this thing called air conditioning that makes it bearable.
by Englishmajor on Feb 26, 2009 6:52 PM PST up reply actions
Humidity
Learned about that moving here to minnesota. Not liking the half foot of snow we got today though.
by FrozenA'sFan on Feb 26, 2009 8:24 PM PST up reply actions
Sacramento evenings are perfect for baseball ...
There wouldn’t be a whole lot of day games, which is unfortunate from a pureist’s perspective, but it would work fine for the team.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
SOOOO PERFECT
I guess the hot weather doesnt bother me as much as the bay area people but who can really complain of 80ish evenings?
Ugh!
Any place where you can’t survive without air conditioning bites.
"You have to score to win"~Rickey Henderson
You can survive ...
It’s a dry heat, so shade does a lot and Sacramento has a ton of trees … at my old place, which didn’t have central air, I only turned on the AC when my ex was home because I didn’t think it was worth the money … I was fine …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
" I didn’t think it was worth the money … I was fine …"
The AC or your ex-?
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
Umm, as it turns out ...
Yes …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
I have the same weather preferences,
but I think the weather at the Coliseum at night probably keeps a lot people away. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the coldest park of the 30 from May to August.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
Not colder than Pac Bell, surely?
It’s not as bad as Candlestick, but I’ve been to some pretty chilly night games there.
by Englishmajor on Feb 26, 2009 6:53 PM PST up reply actions
Most of the seats are better shieled from the wind in SF; the temperature is probably about the same otherwise.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
I don't have any real expertise in the banking industry ...
But a $216m loan at the 7% interest the calculator that came up first on Google assumed comes out to an annual bill of $17,244,600, which is a bit over 10% of the team’s annual revenue, as calculated by Forbes (which should be taken with a substantial grain of salt). I can’t imagine that they would have any problem giving a guaranteed loan with that kind of revenue backing it up … assuming they have the money — it seems like one of the safer places they could put it …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
You don't have to work in banking
Just look at how credit markets are flowing right now. Maybe it would be a safe place to put money, I don’t know cause I ain’t a loan officer neither. But you have to wonder with the Federal Government possibly taking receivership for some of the larger banks what the policies about lending will be.
I think there is a lot of fear, uncertainty and doubt in lending and for good reason. Look at the gamble that was taken on Sacramento by those institutions and how it is paying off. Values have dropped as much as 50% in the region depending on which city. That is a lot of scratch to be losing.
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The weather issue.
The Giants tend to play a lot of night games on the weekend, something I noticed after their move to AT&T. I would assume this happened because a lot more people are looking for things to do at night not only during the week, but also during the weekend.
San Jose and its hot summer weather would be the perfect fit for this way of thinking.
"You're just jealous. You wish you had a rally animal..." -CardinalWraith
I have personally frozen my patootie at some of those night games at the Big Phoney.
The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus
by The Dogfather on Feb 26, 2009 4:19 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Alas, Oakland loses another
You’ll have to subtract Long’s Drugs from Oakland’s list of Fortune 1000 – CVS bought Long’s not too long ago
Even newer info
CVS Caremark Successfully Completes Acquisition of Longs Drug Stores (10-30-08)
I knew this was completed because (a) I was in a Longs the other day and noticed some CVS store brand products appearing on the shelves and (b) my dental hygienist was complaining because her husband, who worked in the Longs corporate office in Walnut Creek, lost his job.
That's sad.
I liked Long’s. CVS is a shithole.
Can monkey care be a positive experience? Yes, but only if you are committed, well-prepared, and well-informed ahead of time. To what degree is this possible? What if monkey care is harder than you thought it would be? --Pet Monkey: A Reality Check
by Leopold Bloom on Feb 26, 2009 7:57 PM PST up reply actions
i often play that nine hole up at chabot
and likewise, it is because i suck to much to play the 18th.
if you ever see three people hacking their way around the course with only one set of clubs between us, well, that’s us.
what have i got myself into this time... http://damiansthirtyyearchallenge.blogspot.com/
by alea iacta est on Feb 26, 2009 7:28 PM PST reply actions
(sigh)
I miss home.
Can monkey care be a positive experience? Yes, but only if you are committed, well-prepared, and well-informed ahead of time. To what degree is this possible? What if monkey care is harder than you thought it would be? --Pet Monkey: A Reality Check
Good read.
It seems the moral of the story is that it’s going to be very, very hard to get a stadium built either place. The Coliseum site might win out simply from being the path of least resistance.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Well
Maybe. The moral of the story is that San Jose is probably better from a few perspectives, but financing will trump all.
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Not sure about that.
Using the median income of Oakland, rather than say, Walnut Creek, Berkeley, or Dublin/Pleasanton really skews the numbers in favor of San Jose. San Jose has an unquestionable corporate edge—if we assume San Francisco companies won’t want tickets to Oakland digs, anyway—but the population edge for metro Oakland is huge, and I suspect income is a wash when you factor in Oakland’s burbs.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
True
The median income for Oakland proper is not the best measure. Someone could probably build a model using 10 mile concentric circles or, 20 miles or whatever. But I am confident if you did that you’d find that the circles closer to San Jose held considerably more coin. For instance, Pleasanton is as close to San Jose as it is to Oakland. Palo Alto, Los Altos, Mt. View, Cupertino, Many, many high rent districts are far closer to San Jose than to Oakland.
That might be a fun research project to conduct. I’ll try and find time to do it.
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So Using this tool
instead of working from my couch, I checked some cities
South Bay:
Palo Alto- 119,046
Cupertino- 118,635
Santa Clara- 76,850
Sunnyvale- 82,622
Mt. View- 103,289
Milpitas- 90,875
Fremont- 88,645
Oaktown:
Berkeley- 86,525
Alameda- 70,144
Walnut Creek- 106,942
Emeryville- 45,349
Piedmont- 134,270
Lafayette- 102,107
Orinda- 117,637
I don’t know what this really tells us other than what I said originally which was that the average joe and jane’s in both areas are pretty similar. I tried to pick the spots nearest Oakland that would have the most coin, but on the flip side they are mostly way smaller than the South Bay cities i picked.
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once Selig and the boys' club revokes...
the Giants’ territorial rights to Santa Clara County, it’ll be full speed ahead for San Jose. Sellout crowds to people with more money with 70 degree night-game temperatures and a short drive to Santana Row. Oakland doesn’t stand a chance.
As I said before, by 2016, Oakland won’t have a professional sports franchise within its borders.
Clowns to the left of me... Jokers to the right...
Thanks, rez.
Santana Row sucks almost as much as driving, by the way.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
probably true...
I’ve never been, so I won’t render an opinion. But, I’ve lots of friends who enjoy Santana Row quite a lot.
Now, strolling from the Coli on a frigid summer night to… where, exactly? Will probably get you mugged, if not killed.
Clowns to the left of me... Jokers to the right...
by FoolshGame22 on Feb 26, 2009 10:16 PM PST up reply actions
How about the BART station?
Which will, in just a few minutes, take you to Rockridge, San Francisco, or anywhere else you might want to go?
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
yes, it takes me to Fremont...
;-)
Clowns to the left of me... Jokers to the right...
by FoolshGame22 on Feb 27, 2009 10:54 PM PST up reply actions
The Warriors led the NBA in attendance last year.
Why would they be moving by 2016?
Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!
Warriors r not going anywhere.
In more ways than one.
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
Anyone know....
…the exact 14 acre site in San Jose?
I know it’s by Diridon but where exactly?
Thanks.
Mercury News put up a picture of it
along with the now dead Fremont sites.
Check it out here
Well done jeffro
Quite thorough. I’d say more but it’s late.
I know exactly where that location is.
It’s a tight squeeze but it could work in theory. Mostly, the A’s would have to figure out the parking situation unless they plan on sharing parking with the Sharks. Hopefully, most of the locals would try to use public transportation, bike it, or walk, since the proposed location is residential. But, it could work and I’d be psyched if it all came together! Go A’s!!!!!
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
How is everybody going to drop Oakland like a hot potato?
As a native of Oakland, I feel betrayed. Do you people have any loyalty? Perhaps the A’s will move to San Jose, and I won’t hate them for it, but do we actually have to wish for it to happen?
how many people on this site are actually from oakland?
"It's like déjà vu all over again." -yogi berra
I believe most of the folks on this site are NRAFs ...
And plenty of us who are loyal to Oakland have come to accept what we view as the inevitable …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
Don't go pressing the inevitability button too quickly,
what with Oakland doom having been prophesied for about 40 years now. I wouldn’t bet the mortgage payment on it, but if anything Oakland’s odds, though still long, have improved in the last few weeks.
"There is a sense of tragic destiny associated with people who have large noses." --Bucky Wunderlick
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Feb 27, 2009 10:05 PM PST up reply actions
+1
I was in the inevitability camp until Fremont fell through. I am now counting on the community of San Jose to be as NIMBY as everyone else in Calfornia, and for the Coliseum site—the path of least resistance to which it’s almost impossible to object—to win out.
I suppose I shouldn’t say I’m counting on it. I’m not anti-San Jose as much as I am pro-Oakland. I can live with a ballpark either place.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Would San Jose be NIMBY though?
I’d figure because the Diridon site is right across from the Sharks arena, people in the neighborhood would figure it’s not much of a difference. I’d say they wouldn’t be as vocal as the Fremont group, and if they were, they wouldn’t have a logical reason for opposition because they were already OK with the Sharks.
It's a huge difference -- lights, noise, double the attendance ...
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
Although I personally would love to see a waterfront venue in Oakland, a few tempering thoughts:
1 — When your increased odds result from the failure of somebody else’s project, rather than any improvement in your own proposal, they probably don’t mean much in terms of the ultimate outcome. For all its natural gifts of setting and climate, Oakland lacks the leadership, vision and energy to make anything like this happen. I also suspect Oakland has/should have higher social services priorities that are lower on the Need Hierarchy. The civic energy it would require to champion this location is probably best spent elsewhere.
2 — a ten-fold increase in chances now equaling “sweet fark-all nuthin’” amounts to “sweet fark-all not much.”
3 — it’s pretty abundantly clear that the economic engine of northern CA — now and for the foreseeable future — is not SF, and certainly not Oakland/East Bay, but Silicon Valley. A stadium being a 30-year proposition, projections mean even more than current statistics. I believe their use would dramatically tip the scale in favor of the South Bay alternative. Forty years ago, SJ was orchards and Oakland was the clear choice. But that’s the point — now the A’s need to work themselves into the vibrant culture that caused SJ to flourish since that time, and Oakland to stagnate.
4 — if ever there was a sport that reeks of “geekitude” it’s baseball. There’s a reason stat-heads migrated here, and it’s not just that baseball is a series of discreet duels, and thus relatively easier than other sports to measure. Football and basketball are pretty hormonal; baseball, and probably to a similar extent soccer, are “beautiful games” more built for thinkers. I “think” San Jose will marry up with their own team exceptionally well. If I was betting the big Icthy’s sheckels, that’s where I’d put ’em.
The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus
by The Dogfather on Feb 28, 2009 11:30 AM PST up reply actions
I didn't think I was dropping Oakland like a hot potato
I was born in Oakland and I love the city. My love for the city has little to do with the A’s, I thought I was pretty clear about that. Maybe this wasn’t directed at me specifically?
I think it is only natural for A’s fans in the South Bay to wish for the A’s to play in San Jose as much as it is natural for you to want them to stay in Oakland.
Most A’s fans I know are not partial to either new stadium scenario (San Jose or Oaktown) as much as they want one of them to FINALLY happen.
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I'm from San Jose but have been a diehard A's fan almost my entire life.
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
Last time I checked they were the Oakland A's
I don’t blame South Bay A’s fans for wanting the A’s to move there, but once a team moves it’s a different franchise. I’m sure A’s fans in Beijing want them to build a stadium across from Tiananmen Square, but they wouldn’t be the same old Oakland A’s. China’s economy is still growing solidly. Here’s to the Manchurean A’s of Beijing!
You are such a reasonable person
San Jose to Oakland is not as Oakland to Beijing, Your whining would come off better if you perhaps considered reality.
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What reality?
Since when has it been a given that the A’s will leave Oakland? You seem to have an awful lot of faith in an 80 year old real-estate developer during the worst economic crisis since the depression. Perhaps the A’s will leave Oakland, but Wolff is not the man who is going to do it. He lost millions, perhaps tens of millions to Fremont (ego not included), and even Selig’s grandstanding can’t do him any good. So, the A’s are perhaps a decade away from starting to think about moving, but wait a minute, the A’s are always a decade away from thinking about moving. Rather than call Wolff’s bluff, just enjoy the A’s being in Oakland, and let the alarmists work themselves into a frenzy.
by natethesnyde on Mar 1, 2009 11:20 PM PST up reply actions
Once 2011 rolls around, the A's will be the only team playing in a duel use stadium ...
and the oldest Stadium other than historic Wrigley, Fenway and Dodger Stadium (and Angel Stadium, sort of … it’s not historic or, really, the same stadium that slightly predates the Coliseum …) …
While the current economic downturn will certainly slow their roll, they will not allow the present situation to stand for long …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
Which team is leaving the Rogers Centre?
The Blue Jays or the Argonauts?
Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!
Who or what is an Argonaut?
Looks like you are correct … The Rogers Centre is also a duel use facility and there is no promise of that changing …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
Still, your point is essentially correct
The days of baseball and football teams sharing a stadium are just about over.
Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!
Yeah ...
I also may be overly optimistic with the situation in Miami … but, yeah … they might take a couple years to catch their breath, but before long, they’ll be back to screaming for a new stadium somewhere …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
San Jose, West Sacramento, San Antonio, Las Vegas, ...
Monterrey, Mexico …
In descending order of likelihood …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
No ... I doubt very much the Marlins will end up in West Sacramento ...
Portland and Charlotte should be nestled in between West Sac and San Antonio, by the way …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
Duel use or Dual use?
En garde!
The reality
where San Jose and Oakland are in the same time zone, state, metropolitan area, media market, one county apart, and where Beijing is on the other side of the planet.
I wasn’t saying it is inevitable that the A’s will move to San Jose. I said it was most likely that the A’s will stay in Oakland or move to San Jose based purely on how the financing of the stadium comes together in either market.
And that I personally would go to either imagined new venue.
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worst economic crisis since the depression?
you ain’t seen nothing yet. None of us have ever lived through anything like what is about to happen. Unless, you’re my dad’s age. And, he was born in ‘31. But, if you’re a fan of history, you’ll know that ‘29 was the “headline” year, but it wasn’t the worst year.
If the A’s manage to get a new stadium built in San Jose, it will be remembered as the last of an era. MLB is in for some hard times along with the rest of us.
Clowns to the left of me... Jokers to the right...
I am in favor of San Jose personally
Granted I live in Sunnyvale now so there’s definitely a selfish aspect to it. Watching the way San Jose reacts to the Sharks (ie selling out every game, walking through San Pedro square on a game night and everyone is wearing teal) as opposed to the tepid support for the A’s in Oakland now is a big part of it as well.
The Warriors sell out every game in Oakland ...
162 games and a 46k seat stadium is a very different animal …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
short term
Devo… how long have the sharks sold out versus the warriors current sell out streak?
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I just looked
First, I don’t believe that any sort of attendance history for one sport necessarily correlates with attendance in another sport. But here be the numbers:
warriors
2008 19,630 avg, 100.2%
2007 18,104 avg, 92.2%
2006 18,272 avg, 93.2%
2005 16,350 avg, 83.4%
2004 16,235 avg, 82.9%
Sharks
2008 17,411 avg, 99.5%
2007 17,422 avg, 99.6%
2006 16,831 avg, 96.1%
2005 lockout
2004 15,835 avg, 90.5%
These numbers are interesting and might be fun to create a whole other post about, but since they have nothing to do with baseball attendance… I’ll let someone else do it :)
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And that's despite the earlier W's teams being losing teams finishing up the longest run
of futility in the history of the NBA … every single year the Warriors have outdrawn the Sharks while the Sharks have made the playoffs every season except one this millennium …
I’m not saying that Oakland is a better location — just that NHL attendance is not indicative of MLB attendance …
The Mavs are 4th in the NBA in attendance, the Rangers were 6th from worst in MLB … Cleveland is 6th in the NBA, 9th from the bottom in MLB …
Montreal is 2nd in the NHL in attendance … didn’t they used to have a baseball team?
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback



























