Greener Grass: Looking at Potential Relocation Spots
by jeffro on Feb 25, 2009 5:06 PM PST
90 comments
Is there a better market outside of the Bay Area?
This is a question I see posed on AN in many forms. Sometimes it is “the A’s should move to Charlotte!” Or it could be, “Sacramento is perfect for an MLB team.” And still, “Portland is the logical next place for MLB to move a franchise.”
In all, I have read opinions that have included San Antonio, Charlotte, Sacramento, Las Vegas, Portland and Salt Lake City as potential places for the A’s to move. But do any of these potential landing spots have some basis in fact?
The first thing we have to do is understand how teams make their money. Ticket sales to average Joe’s and average Jane’s, and then getting us to buy 12 dollar beers, is one. Another is corporate money, be it suite sales, club seats, signage, etc. Lastly, it is local media revenue.
All teams also make money from MLB sources, national media, internet revenue and in some cases revenue sharing checks. Because none of this is really dependent on the local market (except for revenue sharing, arguably) I am leaving these MLB based revenue streams out.
Now that we agree (“we” being me and the frog in my pocket) on some high level revenue streams, we have our criteria for judging each of these markets. Now we have to figure out a plausible way to measure each of these potential revenue streams. The metrics I have chosen are simple to follow.
For Average Joe and Jane money, using the Census MSA and CMSA to gauge the population of a market is the easiest. Were we (me and the frog in my pocket) actually working for a major league team we would care about things like median incomes and population density, but we don’t so we don’t. But we will include those numbers anyway.
For Corporate Money we will figure out how many Fortune 1000 companies are headquartered in a particular region. Of course, there is no guarantee that being the only game in town for a particular sport will mean that all of these corporations will spend a lot of money on that team in that sport (see the fact that the Warriors are the 18th most valuable franchise whilst playing in the 6th most populous region and one flush with Fortune 1000 companies, but I digress) but at least it will show what the potential for corporate revenue streams is.
For Local Media Money we will simply show where the market ranks. This is slightly different than Census MSA numbers. A good example of this is that Sacramento is a larger media market than MSA. This is because Sacramento’s media market includes every where from Modesto to Chico, which may be good for people wanting to advertise something on TV, but is not so good for getting actual people to games on Tuesday nights.
So, how do they rank? A quick caveat, I will use Oakland to represent the Bay Area for this little article. I understand there are people who would like to see the A’s move to San Jose and that will require a different view, in particular a more micro view of the region.
Average Joe and Jane Index:
Oakland
CMSA: 7.2 Million, 6th largest in the country
MSA: 4.2 Million, 12th largest in the country
Population Density: 7,126 per square mile
Median Income: $40,055
San Antonio
CMSA: Not part of a CMSA
MSA: 1.9 Million, 28th largest in the country
Population Density: 2,808 per square mile
Median Income: $36,214
Charlotte
CMSA: 2.2 Million, 20th largest in the country
MSA: 1.6 Million, 35th largest in the country
Population Density: 2,515 per square mile
Median Income: $48,670
Sacramento
CMSA: 2.3 Million, 19th largest in the country
MSA: 2 Million, 25th largest in the country
Population Density: 4,711 per square mile
Median Income: $37,049
Las Vegas
CMSA: 1.8 Million, 25th largest in the country
MSA: 1.8 Million, 30th largest in the country
Population Density: 4,154 per square mile
Median Income: $53,000
Portland
CMSA: Not part of a CMSA
MSA: 2.2 Million, 23rd largest in the country
Population Density: 4,199 per square mile
Median Income: $40, 146
Salt Lake City
CMSA: 1.7 Million, 27th largest in the country
MSA: 1 Million, 48th largest in the country
Population Density: 1,666 per square mile
Median Income: $36,994
Clearly, none of these markets are a good alternative to Oakland. I have read arguments that a less dense population means that a team can get fans from further away. That would have to be true, and extremely true, in order for any of these markets to compare to Oakland/Bay Area. They all have way smaller populations, even if you cut the CMSA in half to account for the Bay Area having two baseball teams, there are more people in the Bay Area. The Median Income being higher in a few of these cities doesn’t really change the fact that there are just not as many people. In short, there is no Washington DC out there to be had.
So after the AJandJ Index, the score is The Town 1, every where else 0.
Next is the Corporate Dollars Index, also known as the “They Will Use Bailout Money to Buy Luxury Boxes” Index. Without more meandering, each area and the number of Fortune 1000 companies:
North Carolina- 26
Nevada- 10
Oregon- 6
Utah- 4
San Antonio- 8 (this includes Austin)
Sacramento- 1
Bay Area- 57
So does anyone notice anything about the first 4? Yep, entire states have less Fortune 1000 companies than the Bay Area. In the vein of being completely honest, Oakland and Alameda actually only have 1 a piece out of the 57, but still isn’t it pretty telling? Wow.
After the CDI it is Bay Area 2, everywhere else 0.
Finally we come to the Media Market Index, or the how many people will watch this game on TV, listen on the radio and how can we monetize that through advertising index. The numbers:
Bay Area- 6th largest
Sacramento- 20th largest
Portland- 22nd largest
Charlotte- 24th largest
Salt Lake City- 33rd largest
San Antonio- 37th largest
Las Vegas- 42nd largest
Well. This needs little elaboration. Bay Area 3, everywhere else 0. It’s true that some of these media markets are larger than existing MLB markets, but does the league really want another Milwaukee, Cincinnati, Kansas City, etc? Not to demean the fans in those cities, just saying from a media revenue perspective, they aren’t doing much.
So there you have it (from me and the frog in my pocket). Unequivocally (even if my grammar is horrible) the Bay Area is best. Now, the next question is “where in the Bay Area?” Stay tuned…
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I think Charlotte represents a decent option ...
They’ve got a reasonable number of people — but a lot of money — both in terms of individual income and corporate dollars. It should also be able to draw support as a pan-South team, like Atlanta does. Nothing else is really realistic.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Feb 25, 2009 5:18 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
The devastation in the banking industry
has killed off the Charlotte option for at least the next few years.
by Soaker on Feb 25, 2009 5:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Any more than other options?
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Feb 26, 2009 12:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I should think so.
Charlotte is the second biggest banking headquarters in the country. Bank of America originated there. Wachovia was originally in Winston-Salem but moved to Charlotte after a merger in the 1990s. After taking over Wachovia, Wells Fargo moved its east coast headquarters there.
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
by iglew on Feb 26, 2009 9:07 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's too bad ...
any of these areas could really use the infusion of medium term jobs that building a new stadium would create …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Feb 26, 2009 10:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
NationsBank originated there, not BofA
NationsBank made a culture of vacuuming up medium-sized banks around the country. Then in 1997, they approached San Francisco-based Bank of America about a “merger of equals”.
Except it wasn’t…
Charlotte based NationsBank took the name, some of the people (you had to pledge loyalty, and a willingness to move to Charlotte) and became the monster that couldn’t get out of its own way. Countrywide, Merrill Lynch…etc.
I think Charlotte’s loyalty sportswise is to NC and NC State, and the Carolina Panthers. No room for baseball…..
Officially awaiting the 2009 season.
by One won lost won on Feb 26, 2009 5:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, OK
I was thinking that continuity of the bank ismore relevant than continuity of the name. Sort of like saying the Baltimore Ravens originated in Cleveland.
NationsBank swallowed the old BofA, then took its name. So in my view the current BofA descends from NationsBank, not from the old BofA. For that matter, I’d trace it back to NCNB, too. As far as I’m concerned the history of BofA is the history of Hugh McColl, who was in Charlotte from the start.
In any case, Charlotte is the headquarters of BofA now, and thanks to the Wachovia failure it’s the east-coast HQ of Wells Fargo now, too. Hence, Soaker’s point that the current banking collapse is a significant setback for Charlotte as a sports team home.
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
by iglew on Feb 27, 2009 1:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
They did.
Sort of like saying the Baltimore Ravens originated in Cleveland.
I could prove God statistically. Take the human body alone - the chances that all the functions of an individual would just happen is a statistical monstrosity.
~George Gallup
by UncleLeo on Mar 2, 2009 7:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Pro sports track record in South is poor
As a proud UNC Tar Heel, my personal observation is that college sports will always be tops in fan esteem in the South. The NFL does OK with its eight home dates a year, and NASCAR of course packs in the numbers. But the sports with heavy calendars, the NBA and NHL, have drawn poorly even in places with high sports interest…see Atlanta Hawks, New Orleans (nee Charlotte) Hornets, and the Charlotte Bobcats.
Atlanta draws from a massive geographic area for its MLB fans, way more so than every team other than Colorado. I’m unconvinced that Charlotte could support an 81 date team. I actually think Norfolk/VA Beach might do better, based solely on my sense of respective fan interest.
"There is a sense of tragic destiny associated with people who have large noses." --Bucky Wunderlick
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Feb 25, 2009 5:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The baseball fan base is huge in NC
There’s a lot of MiLB teams here, and while college sports are the king like you said, Charlotte is still a good option. The triangle area is college sports based, Charlotte isn’t. The Canes get good attendance from the games I’ve been at, and they’re nothing special. The Panthers do good too, and yes, the Bobcats do terrible but that’s because people here prefer college basketball rather than NBA.
I would jizz my pants if my A’s move to NC
Clear its radiance shine...
by ATarHeel on Feb 25, 2009 6:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Charlotte and the NBA
I understand that Charlotte is not really trusting Bobcats owner Bob Johnson, partly because of the George Shinn debacle that eventually led to the Hornets moving to New Orleans and a general mistrust of the NBA in that town. Obviously the Bobcats continual stinkage doesn’t help matters.
Remember that when the Hornets first started in the late ’80s, they were packing them in the then new Charlotte Arena for years.
The Hurricanes have, to their credit, carved a niche in the Triangle. That was not easy to do.
What's G? Nothing but freakin' Gatorade. Geesh.
by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Feb 25, 2009 7:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Although I wouldn't be *that* happy...
…I’d obviously like an MLB team to be in N.C. Doesn’t even have to be the A’s.
What's G? Nothing but freakin' Gatorade. Geesh.
by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Feb 25, 2009 7:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If the A's moved to Charlotte, wouldn't MLB need to realign divisions?
Even with jet travel it seems silly to have an AL West team in North Carolina. Of course, it would make those East road trips a bit shorter.
I like important stuff just as much as the next guy, but please, for a little while, deliver us from meaning, baseball. That's your greatest glory, and we thank you for it very, very much. -- Craig Calcaterra
by JLeverenz on Feb 26, 2009 7:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Two things I thought of.
One is Oakland has direct competition with the Giants for all of this. And Oakland itself does not have much big business.
Second is Oakland has a government that does not care if the A’s exist and do not support them.
How about adding a city to your list. San Jose. I think it will show as the best option.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
by Eastbayjim on Feb 25, 2009 5:40 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t mind it if the A’s moved to San Jose.
It makes enough sense to me.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Feb 25, 2009 6:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sounding by the end of this FanPost...
San Jose might be covered in a follow-up about just the Bay Area…right jeffro?
What's G? Nothing but freakin' Gatorade. Geesh.
by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Feb 25, 2009 7:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice work jeffro
"There is a sense of tragic destiny associated with people who have large noses." --Bucky Wunderlick
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Feb 25, 2009 5:52 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I gave him a well-deserved third rec
I’m not sold on the legitimacy of all of his numbers (e.g. that median income number in Las Vegas), but this post is well thought out and very timely.
by Soaker on Feb 25, 2009 7:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Las Vegas
Here is the source data for Las Vegas
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by jeffro on Feb 25, 2009 10:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Great work, jeffro. I really enjoyed reading this.
"It's a PIVOTAL series! There's only ONE OcTOber! And there's LOTS of unsold AD TIME that we have to FILL with my inNANE bullSHIT!" -Nick 10/06/07
by afansnotes on Feb 25, 2009 11:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My dream scenario
The NFL has talked with the Raiders and 49ers about exploring the possibility of a combined stadium a la New York. So the Raiders move into a new stadium with the niners (not at the Oakland Coliseum), and then the A’s rebuild the current stadium into a baseball only facility, I don’t know maybe close to how it looked in the early 90s?
It makes a lot of economic sense. Probably too much to actually happen.
by Eggman on Feb 25, 2009 6:40 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
For what it's worth
Sacramento may one Fortune 1000 company headquarters, but it has several large offices of Fortune 1000 companies.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Feb 25, 2009 7:24 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I would guess the same could be said about many of the others ...
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Feb 26, 2009 12:22 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
True.
My point is that the headquarters doesn’t need to be there for there to be corporate dollars available.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Feb 28, 2009 8:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But for the the type of fupport needed for new stadium
It helps when they are headquartered in the area.
Cisco isn’t going to sponsor a naming rights deal in Sacramento. No matter how many Webex satellite offices are in Rancho Cordova.
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by jeffro on Feb 28, 2009 10:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Question
Can you talk a little bit more about the median income figures? Because depending on the cost of living, $40K in Oakland might not stretch as far as $37K in Sacramento.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Feb 25, 2009 7:36 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Median Income
Honestly, the Median Income number is really only for the city named and not the surrounding area. To evaluate and compare we probably would have to understand where the fans actually come from. Like in Oakland we should consider Median Income in places like Lafayette and Walnut Creek or San Ramon and Pleasanton. Also in Sacramento we would need to know Davis and Elk Grove or Roseville and Folsom.
There is probably some giant economic equation like A(B)+C(D)/E+F=Pudding that should be employed to establish the market size. In general I would say that the Bay Area has more disposable income than Sacramento when you consider the huge difference in total population.
That is not to say Sacramento isn’t a nice place, it is. When I lived there I was pretty sure that it could be every bit as good a market as Kansas City or Tampa Bay.
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by jeffro on Feb 25, 2009 10:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It depends on what sort of strategy you're pursuing ...
I believe (no hard data here) that the median person in Sacramento (at least before we were destroyed by the housing market crash) has more disposable income than the median person in the Bay Area. There’s a lot more wealth in the Bay Area, but it is fairly concentrated … A small stadium, focused on premium seats and luxury boxes would do better in the Bay Area — a larger, more affordable stadium might do better here (aside from the fact that it’s a tiny market, population-wise …)
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Feb 26, 2009 12:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
See
This is where some big math would need to be done. Basically does the greater disposable income per person in Sacramento (which I think is no longer true, if it ever was) represent a larger pool of coin than the lesser disposable income per person in the Bay Area.
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by jeffro on Feb 26, 2009 8:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This is where I was ultimately heading with my question...
I just chose to be asleep at 12:30 AM
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Feb 26, 2009 9:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I looked up HUD Area Median Income for the MSA's you listed
and the figures differ substantially, not just in absolute terms but also relative to each other. I believe these numbers are for households and for multi-county areas. Here’s my source.
$88,800 San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont
$54,700 San Antonio
$64,300 Charlotte-Gastonia-Concord
$71,000 Sacramento-Roseville
$63,900 Las Vegas-Paradise
$67,500 Portland-Vancover-Beaverton
$65,300 Salt Lake City
The Bay Area number is driven up because unfortunately Alameda and Contra Costa Counties are lumped together with Marin, San Francisco and San Mateo Counties. Nevertheless I’m pretty sure Alameda and Contra Costa standing alone would still be substantially higher than Sacramento-Roseville.
by Soaker on Feb 26, 2009 10:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
According to this calculator:
http://www.bestplaces.net/col/?salary=71000&city1=50664000&city2=50653000
$71k in Sacramento is worth slightly more than $89k in Oakland …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Feb 26, 2009 11:07 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I should have added
that I agree with your general point that maybe gross income isn’t such a relevant number in this discussion. St. Louis checks in with a HUD AMI of $65,000 which isn’t all that high, but St. Louis is pretty clearly a terrific market for baseball. And using your calculator, $65K in St. Louis = $114K in Oakland.
by Soaker on Feb 26, 2009 11:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
As a person who recently moved form Sacramento to the Bay area
I am fairly confident in saying this calculator is over generalizing and is bunk as a result.
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by jeffro on Feb 26, 2009 1:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree ...
I moved from Oakland to Sacramento a couple of years ago and frequently visit the Bay Area, so I . Also, out of curiosity, I have done informal surveys of rental listings, comparing rent of comparable apartments in comparable neighborhoods in the two cities. In my experience (while, obviously, any calculator of this type will be very general — it’s not like anything also in this discussion is being broken to the micro level), it’s about right.
It’s also more than a bit disingenuous to assert that simply because something doesn’t square with your experience, it is bunk.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Feb 26, 2009 2:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
When I lived downtown, I had a 3 BR/2BA with nearly 1200 sq ft for $975/mo. You couldn’t come anywhere near that in the Bay area.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Feb 28, 2009 8:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So if we are going completely anecdotal
I lived in Sacramento, paid 21000 bucks a month for my 3 br 2 bath house. I now live in pleasanton where I pay 2100 bucks for my 3 br 2 bath house (600 sq feet smaller tough.)
My income has increased 23%. Where do you think I have more disposable income?
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by jeffro on Feb 28, 2009 10:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Pleasanton
Mostly because you downgraded your house.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Mar 1, 2009 4:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Good data points
Like I said above, I just used the median incomes within a given city and they come from Census numbers.
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by jeffro on Feb 26, 2009 12:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
article the Biz of Baseball did last year
on top 10 markets for relocation or expansion.
article
(excludes san jose as an option with both A’s and Giants already in the Bay Area)
Save Rajai Davis
by oakinboston on Feb 25, 2009 7:39 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Do you know the way to Monterey?
The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus
by The Dogfather on Feb 25, 2009 8:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice thought, but
How are the regular A’s fans going to arrive and depart the home games? HWY 1?
by somebodyelse on Feb 25, 2009 8:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Um...
worse than that. We’re talking Mexico. Not. A. Chance. But, you never know.
"You have to score to win"~Rickey Henderson
by lynnzgal on Feb 25, 2009 8:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Mexican one is spelled differently
Two r’s vs one.
Monterey, California. Monterrey, Nuevo León, Mexico.
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
by iglew on Feb 26, 2009 12:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yupp -- my badd.
I’m returrning my grammarr nazzi carrd.
The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus
by The Dogfather on Feb 26, 2009 7:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I read this
I think it needs some updating. For instance, Las Vegas is no longer one of the fastest growing communities in the nation.
I also don’t like that he misuses CMSA and interchanges it with MSA for population numbers. There are very specific definitions of what a Combined MSA and a regular MSA are. Portland is not part of a CMSA, neither is San Antonio.
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by jeffro on Feb 25, 2009 10:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Charlotte
shouldnt we look at the attendance lines for the Charlotte Knights, SLC, Portland, etc?
I wnt the as in Oakland—
and if we’re looking at AAA cities, they all have a track record
by thebigman on Feb 25, 2009 8:25 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Sure
Although I am pretty sure there is not much of a correlation between minor league attendance of the past and future major league attendance in the same market.
By far the best attendance numbers for any of these cities is Sacramento. It has led minor league baseball in attendance every year from 1999-2007 with numbers ranging from 830k to 791k in that span.
Charlotte during the same time was drawing between 250k to 290k.Here is an article talking about the struggles of the Knights
Portland is also around 300k.
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by jeffro on Feb 25, 2009 9:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sacramento
I think this is a good list of things but somewhat biased towards the bay area or Oakland…It does not really consider the fact that the A’s currently deal with direct competition from the Giants. I just think that if the A’s have to start looking out of the bay area that Sacramento is the best option. It has the potential to maintain a good portion of their fans(although they might not be able to go to as many games as they did in the past) and then you can grow another fan base here. The process will not be easy if they decide they have to move out of the bay area that is for sure and I think Sacramento has the best chance of maintaining some of the market they are already in and expanding into Sacramento and as was just mentioned Sacramento has had solid minor league numbers so that is an encouraging starting point considering that is the A’s minor league team nonetheless. Seems it would be easy to make this area of people be an eager fan base and still only an hour and a half or so away from the bay area…Not a bad option in my opinion
by yawedout21 on Feb 25, 2009 11:23 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather the A's moved to Sac than
San Jose. SJ has atrocious traffic problems.
by IM4Oakgal on Feb 26, 2009 12:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Dowtown Sac is no better
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by jeffro on Feb 26, 2009 8:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes it is ...
Assuming they don’t build the park along 16th St … that would be a boondoggle …
Traffic in Sac is VERY minor, relative to any of the other major metros in the state — rush hour pretty much wraps up (in downtown) by 5:45 … The two most likely locations, West Sac and Cal Expo (with a little bit of entrance/exit development) both have excellent freeway access …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Feb 26, 2009 11:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I have lived there as well
And, though it may have changed over the last 18 months… the Capitol City freeway always sucks and the commute out towards Roseville is likewise crap. 99 south towards Elk Grove was always jacked up.
Maybe it is better than 101 and 237. But it was never wrapped up by 5:45 when I lived there.
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by jeffro on Feb 26, 2009 12:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's wrapped up downtown most days by about 5:45 ...
rush hour starts and ends later in the outlying areas. Those outlying areas, though, generally wouldn’t be affected by a new stadium in West Sac or Cal Expo, since traffic to those locations would generally be headed in the opposite direction as normal rush hour traffic.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Feb 26, 2009 2:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
San Jose's traffic is really not that bad.
It used to be really bad in the early part of the decade but it has leveled off since. Rush hour sucks but it sucks everywhere….not just here in San Jose.
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
by mrod on Feb 26, 2009 1:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree with anything that you say
But, even your point makes it clear that the Bay Area is better than Sacramento as Sacramento is a “next best thing” for keeping some of their fan base.
I live din Sacramento for 7 years and I love the city. East Sac, Uptown, Downtown… I would live in just about any of those neighborhoods and enjoy it thoroughly. It is probably the only city on the list where I would stay an A’s fan if it became a new home.
But from a numbers perspective, which is what I was trying to portray, it isn’t even close. The Bay Area has way more people, way more high paying jobs, way more corporations to serve as sponsors…
The Kings lost 25 million dollars this year for Pete’s sake. The economic demands of baseball are way greater than the NBA and the King’s are already an entrenched part of the community… if they can’t make it work…
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by jeffro on Feb 26, 2009 8:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The obvious solution:
The Giants should move to Las Vegas.
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
by iglew on Feb 26, 2009 12:15 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
They had better not move there.
We’ll all need to become members of Gambler’s anonymous and the buffets at the casinos will surely aggravate my weight troubles. Nix to Las Vegy!
by IM4Oakgal on Feb 26, 2009 12:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Who are you, IM4SFgal?
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
by iglew on Feb 26, 2009 9:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
nice work...
now, that Fremont is dead, I’m convinced the A’s are moving to San Jose. The Raiders won’t be far behind. Frankly, I don’t think Oakland will have a pro sports team in their city by 2016.
Clowns to the left of me... Jokers to the right...
by FoolshGame22 on Feb 26, 2009 1:43 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
This is trolling
Did you really need to post this same comment in multiple threads?
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Feb 28, 2009 8:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Brooklyn is a dark horse in all this.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Feb 26, 2009 5:51 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
For the love of everything that is good
PLEASE BRING THE A’S to Charlotte if they can not stay in Oakland
Wait for the the 2009 Oaklands A's season to start I can not. Herh herh herh.
by A'sfaninNC on Feb 26, 2009 5:57 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
us a’s fans have become pretty knowlegable about america’s kinda sorta top cities over the years. as 67marquez can attest, ’cept for the haas ownership period, this baby will not go away. my guess. big al dies. football team to so cal. mount tarp comes down. ice plants come back. reggie returns to center field.
owner of a lonely tarp
by oakath on Feb 26, 2009 9:22 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
wolff is a california guy
I doubt he will move them from west coast. Doesnt mean they wont leave the Bay though
btw what other bay area sites r in talks?
by tafkasam on Feb 26, 2009 9:40 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
There have been rumors about Treasure Island
Save Rajai Davis
by oakinboston on Feb 26, 2009 10:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Here in Portland...
As being discussed yesterday on 1080 the Fan, Portland would love to have an MLB team and it is something the citys fans have been trying to get for over 10 years. That being said, now is not the time for it. I would absolutely love to see my A’s here, but for the good of the franchise I just don’t think it’s the right time. Damnit.
by RuQ on Feb 26, 2009 11:44 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
San Antonio
I would have to say Austin/San Antonio is a much better market than your numbers indicate. AAA Round Rock Express annually lead all of that minors in ticket sales so the demand is here. No state income tax. Cheaper land and lower property taxes (if the spot is pick somewhere mid-way from Austin and San Antonio).
Beane's World!! Excellent!!! Rock On, Beane! Rock On, Geren!
by Satchmo22 on Feb 26, 2009 12:52 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
That's not true ...
they have NEVER led Triple A in attendance. The Rivercats have led the level every year they have existed except one — Louisville led the league that year.
Round Rock is in the next tier, behind Sacramento, with Albuquerque, Buffalo, Indianapolis, Louisville and Pawtucket …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on Feb 26, 2009 2:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And besides
Minor League attendance doesn’t make a market major league. The Lehigh Valley Ironpigs, have great attendance but the biggest city in the area is 235th largest in the country. That means they are not ready for prime time.
San Antonio is a nice potential market, but like many of these other potential markets, it is a decad away at best.
myspace music
by jeffro on Feb 26, 2009 4:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Great work, but...
your Corporate Dollars Index has the potential to be misleading. The fact that many more Fortune 1000 companies have their “headquarters” in the Bay Area (or any other area, for that matter) isn’t really the end of the story. Many companies have their headquarters in one city, but have significant operations in other cities. For example, although Intel’s headquarters is in Mountain View, the company employs 6,300 people at its corporate offices/labs in Hillsboro, OR. Hewlett-Packard is based in Palo Alto, but employs 5,500 people in Corvalis, OR. Google is currently headquarted in Mountain View, but just built a huge data center in The Dalles, OR. Boeing isn’t headquartered in Oregon, but employs several thousand in the Northwest. Ditto for Xerox. My point is that simply because a company has its headquarters in the Bay Area doesn’t mean that company wouldn’t spring for corporate luxury boxes or buy ad space in Portland (or anywhere else the company has significant operations). The fact that Oregon is home to only six Fortune 1000 companies doesn’t mean that there aren’t enough big businesses in Portland to support a team. Sure, the Bay Area currently has more big businesses… I wouldn’t argue with that premise. I’m just saying that simply because the Bay Area is currently home to more corporate “headquarters” is not the end of the story.
Also, it’s worth noting that cities like Portland, Salt Lake City, and Charlotte are projected to see considerable growth over the next 10 years, while the cost of doing business in the Bay Area will only become more expensive.
by joshers on Feb 26, 2009 2:51 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
In case it's not already clear...
I think the “Portland A’s” has a nice ring to it…
by joshers on Feb 26, 2009 2:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Projecting growth
The Bay Area, by the same numbers that move Portland from Milwaukee like to Tampa Bay like, will be the third largest Metro Area in the country. More than anywhere but Los Angeles and New York.
As for Hillsboro, I point you to this. The plant is closing.
Hewlett Packard laid off nearly a thousand workers in Corvalis.
Where the headquarters are does matter.
myspace music
by jeffro on Feb 26, 2009 4:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Intel is not closing shop in Oregon
see here.
Nor is HP.
Your analysis also omits any reference to the Bay Area companies that have already invested in luxury seats and advertisements for the Giants. In this economy, are those comanies going to be double-dipping with the luxury suites?? Something tells me no. This is interesting.
by joshers on Feb 26, 2009 8:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It;s nice to dream
But Portland ain’t happening. It was already used to get a better deal in DC, maybe it can be the new Tampa Bay and be used by multiple teams for whatever they are trying to get for a decade.
As for the opinion piece stating the Giants company line about territorial rights, all I can say is keep watching.
On a side note, I am meeting with the Director of Economic Development in your fine state on Tuesday, i’ll ask him what he thinks about MLB.
myspace music
by jeffro on Feb 26, 2009 9:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Portland is a dream...
for now. Let’s be honest, the A’s aren’t going anywhere anytime soon. But, when the time comes to move in 5-10 years, I do think Portland has a realistic shot.
by joshers on Feb 26, 2009 11:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
And with the Marlins and Rays and A’s all having stadium “issues” Charlotte, San Antonio, and Portland all have realistic shots at some team some time.
San Jose and Sacramento really only work for the A’s or if the A’s have moved out of Northern California.
myspace music
by jeffro on Feb 27, 2009 8:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
10-20 years, I can see it
5 – 10, not so much.
In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!
by DMOAS on Feb 27, 2009 12:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Portland
Because I’m moving there at the end of the year. And I left Sacramento in 93, so I haven’t seen an A game on tv that doesn’t have the Costa Mesa Tustin Irvine Angels of Anaheim Riverside Mission Viejo playing.
by CichirelloMagnet on Feb 26, 2009 5:32 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
raiders lease is up in 2010
If the raiders do leave town why couldn’t the A’s remodel the stadium maybe tear down mount davis and make it a much more baseball friendly stadium since they would be the only tenant? This all depends of course if the Raiders do move on to greener pastures like back to LA or some other location. But Sharing the stadium with the Raiders is not the best thing and they are not the best co-tenants wouldn’t you agree?
by beatNYY on Feb 28, 2009 4:11 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
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