Diamond Notes: Should This Screwball Be Allowed To Throw One?
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 9:29 AM PST
109 comments
Among this morning's news from the desert (I'll have the Tanana split, please, with the Bill Almons on the side) comes word from Susan Slusser and The Chronicle that while playing catch Dallas Braden wowed Dana Eveland with a couple nasty screwballs, and both of them agree Braden should mix it in to his 2009 arsenal.
Braden reports he has already added a cutter to his 2008 repertoire of fastball, changeup, and occasional breaking ball (curve) and that he plans to "petition the A's coaches" to allow him to throw the scroogie. Braden got on the minor league map thanks to the screwball, then abandoned it following an unusual arm injury (scar tissue and humural defect) and surprisingly quick recovery, both of which convinced the A's that reintroducing the screwball was not a wise course of action.
Curt Young is apparently not enthusiastic about the idea, citing that what Braden did last year was effective - and arguably, adding a cutter to a repertoire that succeeded in 2008 would keep Braden ahead of the competition. However, I'd be tempted to look at it differently...
The A's have so many young starters with higher ceilings than Braden - specifically Cahill, Anderson, Mazzaro, Gio, and Gallagher - that the A's would be better off for Braden to thrive for a couple seasons and get hurt than for him to be "decent" for several years. It seems like this is an opportunity to go "high risk, high reward" with a pitcher who will be passed up within the organization in a couple years anyway. So if adding the screwball increases the chance that Braden will pitch like a #2-#3 starter instead of a #4 starter, and also increases the chance that he will injure his arm before 2011, it seems to me as if everything points to "turn him loose!" What do you think?
Either way, I figure at least we're not the Dodgers, still wondering if the team's LFer is going to be Manny Ramirez or Juan Pierre. They're so similar in value, only their parents can tell them apart!
And Gio Gonzalez has reported to camp with 27 more pounds of him to love. He says most of the added weight is in his lower body, while Eveland says it's all in Gio's butt and Braden says it looks like Gio stuffed two watermelons down the backside of his pants. Hmm...Is the disease known as "Jerome Williams" contagious? If Gio comes out throwing 96MPH on the black, all I can say is, "Hubba hubba!"
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I'm all for it.
Braden looks like a AAAA starter right now. If he wants to throw a screwball, and if he wants to risk further injury, let’s get that arm twistin’! FEAR MECIR!!!
by HigherPie on Feb 16, 2009 9:49 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Did you catch the Gio interview?
I love how he says the Cuban food is what did him in….
But, if it is added weight he hoped for, like he said, it could really pay off for the July/August stretch, as he said last year he was worn out by that time, I wonder how much fatigue affected him in the bigs…
On to Braden, I think he should definitely use the pitch. I think Young and co. would be worried because they see him as being pretty essential to the team this year, and don’t want to risk losing him to a potentially career threatening injury (their words, not mine). However, I am of a different school thinking at this point he’s penciled in a 4 or 5, and could be replaced by an Outman, Cahill, Anderson, etc. if one of them has a mean spring. Therefore, use the pitch! Give him the chance to be a front of the rotation starter if that truly is what he could reach…
by stranahanahan on Feb 16, 2009 10:05 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Where was the interview with Gio?
I would like to see it. Thx.
by ZigFan31 on Feb 16, 2009 10:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Cryptic...
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
by Joey C. on Feb 16, 2009 1:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Gio, not his mute brother Gnio (pronounced "Nio")
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 2:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
that fatigue towards the end of the season was no doubt caused by
too much Appleby’s and not enough “pernil, arroz y frijoles negros”….
by OaklandSi on Feb 16, 2009 12:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
All the hits he kept giving up were also a bit tiresome
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 12:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
which, if they were attributable to a lack of Cuban food
could perhaps be remedied by care packages from Miami
by OaklandSi on Feb 16, 2009 12:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
does james simmons not exist?
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on Feb 16, 2009 10:05 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
He exists, but by all accounts he doesn't have a ceiling higher than Braden's
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 10:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
mazzaro, not braden
i’m mostly perplexed by this “MAC” hype, why is mazzaro getting so much attention all of a sudden, when simmons gets none?
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on Feb 16, 2009 10:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Because numerous threads
that speak of the potential of our SAC would seem inappropriate.
"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty
by 5Aces on Feb 16, 2009 10:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Again, perceived upside
Simmons is seen as someone who will either be a solid, hittable, innings-eater (see Carlos Silva, the not-bad years, or Joe Blanton without the quality breaking stuff) or a middle-reliever. Mazzaro could be a total flop or he could be on the Derek Lowe track.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 10:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
we don't want to talk
SMAC
Billy Beane loves soccerball, and so should you
by alea iacta est on Feb 16, 2009 12:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Can the addition of a screw ball really turn
a #5 starter into a #2? I sort of doubt it. I imagine the risk would not be worth the reward — for either Braden or the A’s.
"Good or bad, I don't know. This is awesome." ~Nick Swisher after being asked if it was wise to poor beer on Lew Wolfe's head.
by humdinger on Feb 16, 2009 10:19 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Well, I'd say last year he performed like a solid #4
Add the “signature pitch” that earned him recognition in the minors, and a year’s experience, and #2-#3 seems reasonable.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 10:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The other thing
that makes me hesitant on this idea is that it is based on the assumption that Young is being overly paternalistic with Braden and only looking out for his (Braden’s) well being in making this call. I imagine Young does have the team’s best interests in mind, as well — both short and long term. If Braden can be more effective by adding a cutter alone, why not keep him healthy? Even though we have a bunch of guys below him who may reach their much higher ceilings, Braden still has value and there’s no reason to wipe it out.
"Good or bad, I don't know. This is awesome." ~Nick Swisher after being asked if it was wise to poor beer on Lew Wolfe's head.
by humdinger on Feb 16, 2009 10:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
CAN it? of course it can, in theory.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on Feb 16, 2009 10:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's what Curt Young is saying: "Can it!"
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 10:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
And the Fonz replies "Sit on it!"
I like important stuff just as much as the next guy, but please, for a little while, deliver us from meaning, baseball. That's your greatest glory, and we thank you for it very, very much. -- Craig Calcaterra
by JLeverenz on Feb 16, 2009 11:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, are we talking about Braden's screwball or Gio's big ass?
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
by iglew on Feb 16, 2009 7:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It could make a huge difference, especially because it's a screwball.
A screwball is a pitch a left-hander throws that’s actually more effective against righties than it is lefties. It’s not uncommon to see a screwball reliant pitcher have splits you’d ordinarily associate with someone that throws with the opposite hand.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Feb 16, 2009 12:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He's already quite effective against lefties,
and if he really could mix in a cutter and a screwball to go with his “add-and-subtract” fastball, plus changeup, and occasional (mostly to lefties) curve, with his competitiveness (the A’s have always raved about his mental makeup) and overall growth the past year he could actually be quite special.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 12:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Jim Mecir
Never suffered much in the Arm Injury category, did he? He was just club footed, that’s all. That Mecir, he threw a lot of Screwballs.
by oakballnack on Feb 16, 2009 7:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Mecir was fine, but he also didn't have the arm problems
before he threw major league screwballs. That’s the big unknown with Braden – did the screwball help cause the injury and/or would it help cause injury to recur?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 8:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Or would it just cause him to develop a club foot?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 8:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Mecir also didn't have ACL's
I recall it being said he was born without them. Truly an odd physical specimen.
by jdr on Feb 16, 2009 9:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Christ, what an ACL.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Feb 17, 2009 8:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
CWAAOTM
A B -3X = Swedish girls like chocolate @('.')@
by monkeyball on Feb 17, 2009 11:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Screwball pitchers don't tend to stay healthy.
I threw one by mistake once, and the unexpected break by the ball corresponded to an ouchy feeling in my elbow.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Feb 16, 2009 8:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Is that your evidence that screwball pitchers don't stay healthy?
Sample: One fan on a blog throwing one screwball.
Outcome: An owie.
Diagnosis: Muh-dur!
Seriously, though, I’m not sure screwball pitchers have an especially high injury rate. Thinking back to the scroogie artists of my era, Mecir didn’t have arm problems, Willie Hernandez didn’t (to my recollection), Fernando Valenzuela didn’t (did he?)…
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 8:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Valenzuela definitely did, and Hernandez flamed out in his early thirties.
It’s a major reason why the pitch isn’t taught. Just think about what you’re asking your arm to do. You’re heaving it forward at top speed and twisting it in the opposite direction it wants to go.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Feb 16, 2009 9:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
supposedly Carl Hubbell's arm was permanently turned inward
From throwing so many screwballs. The scroogie is pretty notorious for wrecking arms (though of course with pitchers you never know if they would have wrecked them regardless). It’s a pretty hugely awkward motion.
by jdr on Feb 16, 2009 9:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I actually think it might be worth it to both sides
Braden needs to find something that will keep him in the rotation through his arb years, so he can make the legit bucks. The A’s need to find front-of-rotation starters. It seems win-win to me.
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
by PaulThomas on Feb 16, 2009 12:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Braden should use it every once and a while
mostly on the really tough batters or in jams. Would it really hurt him to throw 5 or so screwballs a game? I know he would have to practice it also but come on. I’m not asking for him to be a #2, I would settle for a more effective #4 or #5.
Don’t forget the financial impact either. Braden will make a lot more money if he sticks in the majors and if the screwball keeps him there why not? Even if he his career is shorten by an injury due to throwing the screwball he still could potentially make more money in a few good years than a lot of poor years IMO ( I guess I could try to put together some numbers but I’m lazy).
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
by micdog2001 on Feb 16, 2009 10:29 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
That's what I'm thinking - 5 screwballs/game
keeps it in hitters’ minds and gives Braden another way out of jams without taxing his arm unduly. Of course, that means using it in warmups to keep it sharp, so it’s actually a lot more than “5 screwballs every 5 days.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 10:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder how many times he would have to throw it in warm ups? Once? Twice?
It seems natural to him If he still knows how to throw it after not using it all last year.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
by micdog2001 on Feb 16, 2009 10:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you have to throw a pitch more than that
to keep it sharp enough for game conditions. Ultimately, it’s either part of your arsenal or it isn’t. There’s no shortcut around the risk.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 11:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
no reward without risk
but it isn’t my elbow or shoulder : -)
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
by micdog2001 on Feb 16, 2009 1:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The world needs solid #5 starters, too.
Anyone want to guess what the likely # of healthy starting pitchers from this bunch performing at or above rotation slot 2-4 years from now is? I’m no PT but I’d have to guess it’s below 5. And if we regressed to the A’s mean instead of the league’s, that # might be closer to 0 than to 5.
If braden doesn’t progress at all, but stays healthy, he’s at worst a valuable trading chip. If he’s hurt, well, been there, done that.
Stewart 7, Clemens / McNamee 1
by eastcoasta'sfan on Feb 16, 2009 10:42 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Let the man scrooge
I echo the sentiment that if Braden wants to risk it, I’m all for it. C’mon, how great would it be to have a starter with what is likely (due to lack of depth in the competition) the nastiest screwball in all of baseball? If it raises his K/9 (which one might assume it would) and simultaneously lowers his BB/9 (not sure if there’s a correlation, but what the hell)… we’re talking a potentially incredibly valuable pitch.
Scrooge on, Brad RedFro.
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
by Joey C. on Feb 16, 2009 10:49 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I have mixed emotions about the Gio weight gain.
I loved me a whole lotta Gio before and well, I guess I need to see it. But if he pitches his way into a starting job, I guess I’ll be loving a whole lot more of Gio. If that is possible.
Too bad its all in the backside.
by ZigFan31 on Feb 16, 2009 10:55 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Ok here goes again. Maybe this will make sense to you.
I think Gio looked and pitched fine before. If the weight gain helps him pitch better, I’m all for it. I also hoped his weight gain would be evenly distributed throughout his body.
In addition, Gio was young and inexperienced last year. Even if he does pitch better this year, we might not know if it was because of the weight gain or another year under his belt.
by ZigFan31 on Feb 16, 2009 11:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You forgot "and it's too bad if he now has a ginormous ass."
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 11:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Do we really want to be known as a team that puts the players career in jeopardy for our minimal gains?
I am not 100% sold on Braden and I get that he is not necessarily in the long-term plans, but I would argue that Curt Young has the right idea. He should focus on being good with the stuff he has and the added cutter. Win by effort and practice and not ‘trick pitches’ that have previously messed up his arm and the potential to do so again.
On the flipside——maybe he was just throwing the screwgie at too young of an age before. Many irresponsible college coaches push their players into pitching in ways that harm them in order to reap immediate rewards. Did that previous injury develop out this kind of scenario? Could Braden have a stronger more mature arm that will hold up if he starts throwing it again?
"Whom the Gods wish to destroy they first call promising."--Cyril Connolly, Enemies of Promise
by WhiteElephant on Feb 16, 2009 11:05 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Plus there's no direct correlation between the pitch and the injury,
just concern. I think it’s different if a team says, “Do this” at the expense of the player’s long term health, or if a team says, “You want to do this? OK.” The request is coming from Braden; it’s just up to the A’s whether or not to allow it.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 11:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree.
I was under the impression—based on the post—-that the freak injury was linked to the pitch.
abandoned it following an unusual arm injury (scar tissue and humural defect) and surprisingly quick recovery, both of which convinced the A’s that reintroducing the screwball was not a wise course of action.
My only other concern would be a player getting caught up in a gimmick instead of focusing on learning to pitch.
But,if both sides want to take the risk. Then I see no problem.
"Whom the Gods wish to destroy they first call promising."--Cyril Connolly, Enemies of Promise
by WhiteElephant on Feb 16, 2009 11:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The thinking was that the screwball might have contributed to the injury,
(but also might not have), and then because the recovery went so well the A’s took a “it’s not broken, don’t fix it” approach.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 11:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There really no way to know whether a screwball would help or hinder
I think it’s probably best to err on the side of the caution and let Braden start out not throwing it and see how he does with the cutter. If the results aren’t there then let him start throwing the screwball and see if that improves anything.
I like important stuff just as much as the next guy, but please, for a little while, deliver us from meaning, baseball. That's your greatest glory, and we thank you for it very, very much. -- Craig Calcaterra
by JLeverenz on Feb 16, 2009 11:09 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Consider the source
Dana Eveland says he couldn’t see Suzuki’s fingers from the mound last year, so maybe we need to take his “wow, I definitely couldn’t hit that scroogie” assessment with a grain of salt.
That caution aside, I think Braden should be allowed to throw the scroogie, even if it’s only a half dozen times a game. Adding a scroogie/cutter combo could really help keep righties from sitting on his very hittable fastball.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Feb 16, 2009 11:13 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Eveland was saying "Wow, I couldn't hit that"
so much as, “Wow, as a pitcher I can say that pitch looks unhitable.” Then again, Dana is probably more qualified to weigh in on Gio’s new big ass than he is qualified to discuss the screwball.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 11:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL...stop picking on my boy!
Does anyone have a current picture of him? I must see this.
by ZigFan31 on Feb 16, 2009 11:21 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
From SF Gate...not really a good angle.
by ZigFan31 on Feb 16, 2009 1:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The word "yikes" comes to mind
That, and “Run – it’s coming towards us!!!!!!!”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 2:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
eveland is wearing glasses now
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on Feb 16, 2009 11:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That works fine until Gio accidentally sits on them.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Feb 16, 2009 11:33 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Or until Angel Hernandez notices a pair missing
Which, of course, he probably won’t.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 11:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So I guess the organization's position that Braden has never thrown such a pich is no longer operative?
A B -3X = Swedish girls like chocolate @('.')@
by monkeyball on Feb 16, 2009 11:22 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
braden has always been at war with the screwball
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on Feb 16, 2009 11:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
"He has never thrown that pitch!
And we’ve asked him to stop throwing it! And we’re not sure if he should start throwing it again!"
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 11:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's more of a Calvinist denial at this point
And by that I mean the 6 year old, not the 16th century religious reformer.
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
by PaulThomas on Feb 16, 2009 12:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm thinking the screwball is more Hobbes:
Nobody but Braden ever sees it, and somehow a penguin is involved.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 12:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Evidently his left humerus is semi-Hobbesian
Poor, nasty, and short.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Feb 16, 2009 12:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't that called "salbian"?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 12:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Christ, what a screwball.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Feb 16, 2009 11:36 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I Miss Jim Mecir
Maybe we could get him to come to camp and coach braden on the screwball
Cust is the new Jaha.
by johnjahafanclub on Feb 16, 2009 12:28 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Curt Young threw a change-up with a sort of scroogie action
He was throwing it during Spring Training of 1984 and Dave Kingman suggested that it would be more effective if he turned it over like a screwball. That pitch turned Young into a really effective pitcher for a few years.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Feb 16, 2009 12:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Dave Kingman for pitching coach!!!!!!11
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 12:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's going to happen...
Whether Braden throws a scroogie during his A’s years or thereafter, he’s going to throw it. If it makes him a better pitcher, he’s bound to throw it when he gets to free agency. At some point, he’s going to have to use his whole arsenal to the best of his ability in order to maximize his earning potential as well as continue his career. The question is whether the A’s, as opposed to his next team, get to see the best pitcher Braden can be, or not.
by richwol1 on Feb 16, 2009 1:16 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Shoulda added a poll to this post, Nico...
I’ve been saying all along that Braden should be throwing his scroogie. Even when the A’s (seemingly) denied that he ever threw one. He’s a strikeout, potentially, front-of-the-rotation pitcher with the screwball and a #4 or #5 without it.
Seems like a no-brainer to me. Richwol1 is right… he’s eventually going to throw it. Let’s hope the A’s see the light.
Clowns to the left of me... Jokers to the right...
by FoolshGame22 on Feb 16, 2009 1:45 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Maybe not throwing it last year was smart, though,
when he was coming back from an arm injury. That doesn’t mean he shouldn’t throw it now, however.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 2:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe... it's not like the prohibition...
prevented the A’s from making the playoffs last year. They had much bigger problems. But, if Beane is going for it this year, then he should let Braden be his best. And, that means throwing his best out pitch.
Clowns to the left of me... Jokers to the right...
by FoolshGame22 on Feb 16, 2009 2:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
completely agree
I think he needs to throw it to become the best possible pitcher. It is simply a question of whether he does it now or later (and probably for some other team).
chronic
by Since1972 on Feb 16, 2009 2:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ask and ye shall receive, Foolsh.
Poll added.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 2:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
can I have $5?
I’d ask for a hug, but would hate for you to think I was weird.
Oh.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on Feb 17, 2009 5:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
we must be in the depression already
folks on this blog used to ask for at least $10
by OaklandSi on Feb 17, 2009 9:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't want to be rude.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on Feb 17, 2009 9:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
67 already assumed
the other $5 would come from the AN bailout fund.
"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty
by 5Aces on Feb 17, 2009 11:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
*circles E*
He can only use it 4 times per start, use it wisely braden!
"It's like déjà vu all over again." -yogi berra
by Cheezombie on Feb 16, 2009 2:59 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Then if Braden pitches well he can earn Pitching Points that can be used to purchase more upgrades and special moves
Like a flame decal on his uniform. Or to increase the number of screwballs he can carry.
I like important stuff just as much as the next guy, but please, for a little while, deliver us from meaning, baseball. That's your greatest glory, and we thank you for it very, very much. -- Craig Calcaterra
by JLeverenz on Feb 16, 2009 4:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe then he could level up into a #3 starter
Say something funny.
by muffinpryde on Feb 16, 2009 8:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
shyeahright
that’s like 1200 exp
"It's like déjà vu all over again." -yogi berra
by Cheezombie on Feb 16, 2009 9:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
n00b
"It's like déjà vu all over again." -yogi berra
by Cheezombie on Feb 16, 2009 9:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If he wants to throw his screwball, he should be forced to do this dance before every start...
by whiteshoes40 on Feb 16, 2009 5:01 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
The Irish jig?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 16, 2009 5:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Let's keep
the name-calling to a minimum, please.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on Feb 17, 2009 5:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Watch your words
If Braden himself REALLY wants to throw it, and thinks it is safe than fine. But Nico the words you chose are just sadistic. Treating him like an animal saying there are bigger stronger younger ones behind him so if he gets injured WHO CARES?! This is a human being with a life outside and beyond our sick obsession with a team that wears white cleats. Under no circumstances should Braden throw the screwball if it is going to cause him an injury.
"Just looking at Lackey's face, you just want to beat him" -Ray Fosse
by marco magic on Feb 17, 2009 4:45 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Unless he wants to, and doesn't care about the injury risk.
"I’m Joey Devine, I’m what Joba Chamberlain would be if he was good and nobody had ever heard of him."
by mikev on Feb 17, 2009 8:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm saying if he wants to, the A's can take the risk with him
Not of deformity and paralysis, mind you – of injury.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 17, 2009 8:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Players are human?
Get outta here.
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on Feb 17, 2009 8:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Injury
Rob Neyer wrote a short essay about the screwball for the book he and Bill James wrote about pitching. In it, he talks about the injury concerns and cites a number of different people who caution against throwing the screwball, going all the way back to Christy Mathewson. He also notes that the top starters who were known for throwing a screwball enjoyed their last good season in their late 20’s or early 30’s.
Given that, I think Curt Young and the A’s caution regarding injury is certainly warranted. I’m not sure how many times a guy has to throw the pitch for there to be serious injury risk, but Neyer and James list the screwball as the primary pitch for a lot of the guys who threw it. If Braden only uses it occasionally then he should be okay, since relievers who used it (like Tug McGraw) seem to have been OK health-wise.
I like important stuff just as much as the next guy, but please, for a little while, deliver us from meaning, baseball. That's your greatest glory, and we thank you for it very, very much. -- Craig Calcaterra
by JLeverenz on Feb 17, 2009 6:36 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Who knows? Not us...
I think this is one of those situations where we—as outsiders—have no idea what’s best. We have very little idea how to answer the two critical questions:
1) how much better Braden would be if he added the screwball, or
2) how much more likely he is to get hurt if he added the screwball.
We can ask whether it’s worth endangering his health for the potential reward of a better pitcher, but the answer to that question depends on (1) and (2) above. We’d all be for it if the reward was high enough and the risk was low enough, and we’d all be against it if that were reversed.
I think the screwball is incredibly cool, and I loved Mecir, but I just don’t know.
The A’s have so many young starters with higher ceilings than Braden – specifically Cahill, Anderson, Mazzaro, Gio, and Gallagher – that the A’s would be better off for Braden to thrive for a couple seasons and get hurt than for him to be “decent” for several years.
I can, however, say that I disagree with this argument. The upside of the A’s prospects should have no impact on this decision. The only way they should come into play is when they’ve passed Braden by in actual talent—not projected talent.
If the A’s had a full rotation and bullpen that was already better than Braden, then it would be an easy choice to have him throw the scroogie again. But he’s currently in line for the 5th starters job, and he’s projected to be one of the A’s top 4 starters this year in the projections I’ve seen.
The way I lean: Braden is worth the league minimum now without the Scroogy. If he isn’t worth what he’s going to get in arbitration a couple years down the road—or he’s no longer good enough to hold a spot on the A’s staff—they should have him add the Scroogie then. For now, I have no idea.
by Danny on Feb 17, 2009 6:38 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
See I would say the A's don't need another #4 starter right now -
they can pull one out of their hat a number of ways – but could really use a #2-#3 for these next two seasons.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 17, 2009 8:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Once again, we come across a situation in which the A's choose
between short-term gain with potential long-term loss, or squandering Matt Holliday’s one year in an A’s uniform. Under these circumstances the A’s have to take whatever risks are available to potentially up the team’s winning percentage this season. It’s like becoming a drug addict— suddenly armed robbery starts making sense, where it never would have before…
Turn him loose.
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
by PaulThomas on Feb 17, 2009 10:02 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Hmm...Armed robbery always made sense to me even before I started buying crack from Kindergarteners
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Feb 17, 2009 12:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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