The Myth That McGwire and Sosa "Saved Baseball"
by windyfelix on Feb 12, 2009 7:57 AM PST
Email
PrintAmong the many outgrowths of baseball's sorry last 15 years or so is the notion that how can we punish all these PED users when, after all, the original home run chase, along with Cal Ripken's Gehrig pursuit, between Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa in the summer of 1998 "saved the game", still reeling from the effects of the strike/work stoppage of 1994-95.
It is undeniably true that the a) the McGwire-Sosa chase for 61 helped rekindle interest in the game and boost attendance and that b) the subsequent emphasis on power hitting and home runs ("Chicks dig the longball", said Glavine to Maddux, or was it the other way around?) helped strengthen the sport's shaky financial base. Everybody got rich-- the players, the networks, the teams, etc.. And it is also undeniably true that Bud Selig and Co. conveniently looked the other way as to the cause of -- and perhaps aided and abetted-- the power surge by tinkering with the baseball itself-- in their thirst for the additional revenue that the longball was helping them gain.
But at what cost? Selig today described himself as "heartbroken" by the ARod admission of guilt. He knows better than anyone that his tenure as Commissioner will be defined by this issue way above all others. The Hall of Fame-- Cooperstown, the game's most iconic venue; in many ways its heart and soul-- is teetering on the edge of irrelevance as one great player after another is found to be complicit in PED use and thus faces perhaps a lifetime of snubbery from the BBWAA. Nearly every great player of the past two decades is now tarnished-- fairly or unfairly-- with the steroid brush. McGwire is in exile... Sosa hasn't been heard from in years... Clemens and Bonds may be lucky to avert jail... Miguel Tejada, for God's sake, may yet go to jail. The game's records-- one of the most hallowed and vital links to its storied past-- have been rendered almost meaningless, freak show numbers that will mock the more normal attempts to best them for years to come.
Baseball and its stars have become akin to Michael Johnson, Ben Johnson, Flo Jo, Marion Jones and, yes, Lance Armstrong. Great atheletes all that could not resist the urge to cheat--as so many if not most of their peers also did. Those sports have been crippled by scandal, becoming recurring jokes with each new Olympics (no, I don't believe Bolt was clean. How could he be and run that impossibly fast?) or Tour De France. The next time a ballplayer hits 60 home runs-- and there will be a next time-- will we applaud or will we assume that he has simply figured out a way to beat the tests?
And as the economy staggers, and attendance dips, and the drip..drip..drip of steroid speculation or fact continues, who or what will save the sport the next time? It ain't gonna be the long ball, that's for sure. Big money contracts are shrinking... postseason ratings dwindle... cynicism growing. There are those-- including many on this space, who shrug their shoulders, either because they have grown unable to distinguish right from wrong or because they simply don't believe that "getting an edge", through whatever means, is wrong. Fine. But I leave you with the words of a NFL player-- a sport that almost cruelly to its horsehide cousin seems to thrive in the face of its players' transgressions-- who resisted steroids, Marcellus Wiley (If we can believe him, of course): (I paraphrase from earlier this morning on ESPN) "I got hurt and then saw other players with similar injuries keep playing for 5, 10 more years. I sit in my TV chair and wonder if I had only injected would I still be playing? And I get angry. Not that I would do it any differently, but they (the cheaters) make me mad."
As they should. "Saved the Game"? Remember Vietnam? And the philosophy that stated that in order to save a village we had to destroy it? McGwire and Sosa weren't the first, unfortunately. But the wreckage is huge.. and growing.
119 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
"tarnished [...] with the steroid brush" -- a malaprop worthy of David Chase
So, if it’s undeniably true that the McGwire-Sosa chase for 61 helped rekindle interest in the game and boost attendance after the effects of the strike/work stoppage of 1994-95, and that the subsequent emphasis on power hitting and home runs helped strengthen the sport’s shaky financial base, and everybody got rich … what, exactly, would have constituted “saving baseball” if not that?
And your last paragraph is a total nonsequitur. If the metaphor were to be operative, then all of the PED users would have had to utterly destroy baseball first instead of making everybody rich.
A B -3X = Swedish girls like chocolate @('.')@
Spot on critique, ol' chap!
I’m getting tired of all this do-gooder BS moralizing about “purity” and “cheaters” and “tarnished”.
Ball Four came out in 19f’n70. It has been public knowledge that players use and have used PED’s for longer than I (and most other AN’ers) have even been alive!
Baseball is a game of little edges, legal and otherwise, and I want my team to win. I sincerely hope that our nation’s medical scientists can come up with better, untraceable PED’s and uppers, so that we can go back to seeing the hard bodies and long dingers that make and have made modern baseball entertaining.
"I have more questions after these."-WaddellCanseco
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 13, 2009 3:13 PM PST up reply actions
Huh?
And as the economy staggers, and attendance dips, and the drip..drip..drip of steroid speculation or fact continues, who or what will save the sport the next time? It ain’t gonna be the long ball, that’s for sure. Big money contracts are shrinking… postseason ratings dwindle… cynicism growing.
MLB had record high revenues in 2008. They brought in $6.5 billion, breaking 2007’s record of $6.1 billion.
I think Lance Berkman said it well:
Berkman, an outspoken proponent that baseball should change course and institute blood testing to give its testing program legitimacy, cautioned that the American public hasn’t exactly protested by turning away from feats such as the ones put up by Rodriguez.
"That doesn’t seem to affect attendance," Berkman said, "or merchandise sales or fantasy leagues. … I don’t want to say that people are hypocritical, but certainly whenever a story like this breaks there’s outrage and cries of foul and things like that, but people still enjoy the game of baseball.
"And so I’m really not sure what I want to say other than there seems to be a double standard where when the story comes out people are outraged about it. But then they certainly enjoy watching A-Rod hit 500 home runs."
all i can say is
money isnt everything
the sport is in tatters.
Uh, for Selugworth et al., money IS everything
That’s his legacy.
A B -3X = Swedish girls like chocolate @('.')@
and oh by the way...
the numbers on Wall Street all looked pretty good 18 months ago.
If that is Selig’s legacy, I think it may be dawning on him how hollow, or Pyrrhic, the victory may have been
And the current state of the economy has what, exactly, to do with players using PEDs?
By this logic, every single profit taken by any investor in the last 15-20 years is Pyrrhic.
A B -3X = Swedish girls like chocolate @('.')@
gee, i would think the comparison is crystal clear
They each based a financial foundation on a house of cards— PEDs and the longball in baseball, derivatives and obscene credit policies on Wall Street.
well, that's an interesting and on-point analogy, but it's not what you argued above
And as the economy staggers, and attendance dips, and the drip..drip..drip of steroid speculation or fact continues, who or what will save the sport the next time?
A B -3X = Swedish girls like chocolate @('.')@
Huh???
this can be a pretty weird alternative universe sometimes. The point being that, yes, the longball helped “save” the sport by putting butts in the seats, but that it was only a temporary fix founded on a lie. Now that the economy is about to deal a serious blow to the game’s finances…. what will bail out the sport now?? Won’t be the government, I guess, although one could argue that the congressiona hearings and subsequent push for tougher drug testing may be the only chance.
So … Sosa and McGwire did in fact save the game and the economy is the greatest current threat to MLB’s health.
What was your thesis again?
A B -3X = Swedish girls like chocolate @('.')@
lol
Yeah, I don’t think this one was exactly thought through.
by AgitationStation on Feb 12, 2009 4:42 PM PST up reply actions
I guess I need to be more clear to the Einsteins around here
No, the game wasn’t saved if a) the fix was temporary; b) the fix was built on a dishonest foundation; and c) the fix could not withstand the growing shame of the sport in concert with a near depression.
By about August you’ll get it.
Pretty much all of his diaries have the same condescending tone.
It’s probably why, for all the replies he gets, he rarely gets a recommendation.
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
Makes sense
Lots of words, lots of attitude, little substance.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
The thing is, you know it's going to be that way even before clicking through to see the content
The thing is, some of the ideas aren’t horrible, and if fleshed out or presented with less faux authority, would actually be rec-worthy.
As it is, some of his comments remind me of “that guy” at work who thinks he knows everything about sports, and constantly tells you how horrible your team is. Always has to have an opinion about something, and it’s never wrong.
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
Yep, I know the type.
I have convesrations with myself frequently and am constantly re-reading my posts since it’s so infrequent that AN members reply to me.
And I am never wrong — the very few replies that I do happen to get to my comments not withstanding.
by LowcountryJoe on Feb 12, 2009 8:00 PM PST up reply actions
For the record, I often agree with the stuff that you get lambasted for
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
Yeah
I have my moments where I can be stubborn and approach that territory and I understand wanting to present an opinion you think is thought out well, something you’re correct about, but when it’s challenged and you just hunker down and get defiant…that’s not working, you know?
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
Sometimes, it's easier to just concede the point
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
The 'fix' has been going on since at least the mid 80s
That’s not exactly temporary. And that’s just the steroids. Since that time, that dishonest foundation has supported quite a bit. Will it really fall? With you and others it might but I have this feeling that baseball will continue to thrive and still atract new fans.
by LowcountryJoe on Feb 12, 2009 5:21 PM PST up reply actions
lol
Growing unemployment, foreclosures, the elimination of credit, and a worldwide recession isn’t either, I guess.
It's not a laughing matter.
The stock market is just simply not the economy. The economy is much bigger than the market for trading ffractional ownership of equitable positions in companies listed on the exchanges that facilitate this.
Besides, whose credit is eliminated? And who in the heck would want to loan funds to the market, anyhow, when the tax man comes after interest and dividends so much more agressively than he does for stocks and residential housing assets. There’s no wonder that there was an asset buble in the housing market — the tax rule give so much more preferential treatment to housing in lax capital gains rules and the mortgage interest deductibility.
by LowcountryJoe on Feb 12, 2009 5:16 PM PST up reply actions
Fractional reserve banking is a scam...
Everything else after that is just icing on the cake…
"I have more questions after these."-WaddellCanseco
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 13, 2009 3:16 PM PST up reply actions
I don't understand how it's a scam.
Consider a bank that would have to have a 100% reserve requirement; how would it be possible for a bank to loan in that instance…any deposits would have to be held in case the entity with money on deposit should come back and lay claims on those deposited funds: nothing would be lent. Unless, of course, you’re an advocate of no reserve requirement from banks. But I do not think that that’s what you’re advocating. Any other system just cuts out the banks and creates private lending between individuals. That may be very safe but it’s terribly inefficient at facilitating credit. Perhaps you’re an advocate for a higher percentage of reserve requirement by Federal Reserve-memeber banks.
by LowcountryJoe on Feb 13, 2009 6:04 PM PST up reply actions
24 months ago, residential housing was still appreciating...
…people were realizing wealth gains from refinancing or leveraging their borrowing/consumption on these gains on their home.
And then the conveseration turned, until the homes went down. And many realities were learned and then come what may…keep feeling house stagnation, forclosures spurring oh so strong. Keep feeling house stagnation, repayments fleeting, evict them out.
by LowcountryJoe on Feb 12, 2009 5:09 PM PST up reply actions
Low blow on Lance Armstrong.
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
if the shoe fits
I would hazard a guess that no other major athlete of the past decade or so— not even Bonds— has been so stained by drug allegations and suspicions— people that worked for him have said he used; his coach and teammates have either been accused or found guilty and suspended; plus the positive tests themselves. Plus the fact that most of his major competitors have been hit with doping charges or actual suspensions. For someone to believe that Lance Armstrong is clean is to believe in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and Kaiser Soze all in one.
So you are the judge and jury for Lance Armstrong? I thought it was innocent until proven guilty?
On the other hand, i am and always have been a big fan of Big Mac. I would pay to watch him play today. I also hope he makes it to the HOF because he was, to me, the guy who took the A’s to the series in the 80s. Well, he and henderson.
Also, Henderson has been called on PED usage but he did pretty good so he must be guilty also, right? Or even Dave Stewart. He beat Clemens over and over again.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
What's wrong with being judgmental about who did what?
I believe that Armstrong was a user but he’s not going to go to jail because I believe he used.
by LowcountryJoe on Feb 12, 2009 5:32 PM PST up reply actions
Technically, cancer was a low blow on Lance Armstrong too
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
Testicularly, so was that
Stewart 7, Clemens / McNamee 1
by eastcoasta'sfan on Feb 12, 2009 7:51 PM PST up reply actions
Michael Johnson?
Has he ever been implicated in PED usage, or even seriously suspected of it?
Didn’t he in fact return one of his olympic gold medals because one of his relay teammates tested positive for roids?
Again, please use your heads
Why did Johnson get almost zero endorsements in the wake of his unheardof record smashing in the 1996 Olympics?
How can a man destroy the 200 meter world record— as Flo Jo did for both the 100 and 200 in 1988— by so much? It was the biggest time leap in the modern history of the event, by far.
Do you really believe that happened naturally?
snarky...
and ridiculous. Your point being….???
That using the same process a tabloid paper
would use to assign guilt and blame to people is not really using your head. Your lack of need for direct evidence is why your constant meanderings on steroids are meaningless.
Gee I'm sorry
I wasn’t in the john to see these people all shoot up. But I’d rather not have my head in the sand either, i guess. “Constant meanderings”….. lol— I’m one of the only people around here willing to say that the emperor might not have any clothes. Rather be accused of meandering than of ignorance, stupidity, or indifference
I kind of accused you of the first 3
But hey… what do I care. Meander away. It makes for great comedy.
By the way,
the emperor doesn’t need any clothes anymore.
The people are pretty used to naked emperors now.
"I have more questions after these."-WaddellCanseco
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 13, 2009 3:17 PM PST up reply actions
So we should do what you're doing and assume he's guilty?
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
Yep....
or else live in permanent naivete. Do you honestly believe that any of the best track stars in the past 20 years, or cyclists for that matter, are clean? When nearly all around them have been exposed as cheaters?
So it's naive to take an innocent until proven guilty approach?
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
It is a little naive to take an innocent until proven guilty approach...
It’s fair, just, decent, and honorable, but yes, also a little naive.
"I have more questions after these."-WaddellCanseco
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 13, 2009 3:19 PM PST up reply actions
Which is also why "innocent until proven guilty" is a myth.
I could prove God statistically. Take the human body alone - the chances that all the functions of an individual would just happen is a statistical monstrosity.
~George Gallup
Only in the court of public opinion
And in that court you’re innocent and forgotten again in 48 hours.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Not really.
“He was arrested, so he must have done something wrong.”, is a far too common mindset. The only person who really believes a defendant is innocent is their attorney… and even then it’s doubtful.
I could prove God statistically. Take the human body alone - the chances that all the functions of an individual would just happen is a statistical monstrosity.
~George Gallup
I love that
“Agree with me or you’re ignorant” — that’s not the way to win arguments.
It’s been stated before and in many places, but cheating is not a new phenomenon in baseball. And the breaking of these records you are bemoaning — the “most hallowed and vital links to [baseball’s] storied past” — how many of these records were set during a time when only Caucasian players were allowed to play?
The sanctimony with which people view the PED scandal is ridiculous. Roids aren’t tarnishing baseball’s past; they’re pretty much right in line with it.
I'm actually getting a kick out of windyfelix
His points lack sense and are little more than “I’m right because I can see deeper into this than the rest of you,” AND he comes back with the whole “You’re wrong and naive if you don’t agree with me” retort on top of it.
I love it.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
Aren't you the guy
who compiled a list of the top stars in baseball and assigned guilt and blame based on your own character judgments like last week or something? So, top performers in baseball only used if you have some bone to pick with them while top performers in other sports always juice.
You should write a sitcom.
uh no
I did speculate about the 2003 A’s, however
Short-term memory problems ?
Unquestionable proof positive that you are a habitual marijuana user.
by green star oakland on Feb 13, 2009 11:17 AM PST up reply actions
And before Takeru Kobayashi came along
No one ever at more than 25 dogs in 12 minutes before. Then Kobayashi at 50.
Must have been steroids.
he had to destroy the hot dogs in order to save the hot dogs
A B -3X = Swedish girls like chocolate @('.')@
You really hate the word "ate"
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Feb 12, 2009 4:31 PM PST up reply actions
Nope, not a myth
Selig sold his soul regarding the steroids issue in part because the sport was in trouble and needed something like that home run race to bring fans back en masse. Now the sport is dealing with the fallout of it because of the things they tried to cover up and hide.
The sport will weather this storm. This isn’t like a strike situation where people blame “the greedy players” and vow never to return. In fact, with a lot of people this whole thing is already reaching the point where their reaction is “Who cares now? Let’s just move on already!”
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
He sold the rights to any soul that might or might not be unearthed within his psyche
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
Steroids have not had any affect on how much I love baseball
There was and still are clean players and you still need baseball talent even if you are taking PEDs. Just ask all those guys who took something but still dropped out of baseball.
I like to look at the baseball glass being half full and not half empty. I sorry that some fans are crushed by players cheating but I agree with Flashfire, I am ready to move on.
Forget about taking away records and MVPs, creating seperate wings of the HOF, and trying to punish players who took PEDs when it wasn’t against the rules yet. You can’t go back and change what happened, you can’t fully sort out which players did it and which didn’t, you can’t say for sure what would have happened if a player did or didn’t take PEDs. You can’t say how many homeruns Babe Ruth would have hit if he had to play against Latin and African American players. You can’t say how many Hank Aaron would have hit if he had the same conditioning and weight training programs and giant plastic elbow guards as players have today.
Sure, I think baseball should learn from what happened. Get a stronger testing program. Preach to the kids and teenagers that PEDs are wrong and harmful to your body. Punish the players who continue to use and get caught. Learn from your mistakes and stop pointing fingers about who is to blame (really Bud Selig, you put out a memo about steroids in the 90’s. Good job your hands are clean, NOT!).
I’m done with steriods, bring on spring training baby!
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
Captain Renault
“I’m shocked, I say, shocked.” Listening to Selig and Hicks talk about how shocked and disappointed they are in talking about steroids is like listening to Claude Rains’s character in Casablanca talking about gambling games at Rick’s.
Baseball was saved by the McGwire/Sosa race because at the time, nobody cared about steroids. Not Selig. Not the sportswriters. Not the fans. We all knew, and we’re all complicit.
I don't think you're going to find a lot of agreement with your last sentence
Especially going back to that time period. A lot of this stuff was unknown and only in the last few years did things really start to be exposed as much more than the vast majority of the people out there thought.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
I'll grant...
…that there were questions about whether the ball, rather than the players, was juiced. But the rumors were swirling even then about McGwire and Sosa. And as Glenn Dickey pointed out last week, back in 1992, when Canseco was batting against Boston, Red Sox fans were shouting “STE…ROID, STE…ROID” and Canseco smiled, and then flexed. People laughed, and people also knew.
It was the '88 ALCS
that they did that in Fenway, so it’s even further back.
I'm here to talk about the past.
from SI
To almost no one’s surprise, the first run of the American League Championship Series, in the fourth inning of the opener, came on a homer by the Oakland A’s Jose Canseco—it landed atop the Green Monster in Fenway Park. As he strutted out to rightfield for the bottom of the inning, Hollywood Jose was greeted with “STEH-roids! STEH-roids!”, playing off an unsubstantiated charge that Canseco used steroids to go from a 165-pound high school weakling to the 230-pound hunk of today who will soon star—shirtless—in an advertisement for American Express. “STEH-roids! STEH-roids!” the Fenway fans repeated. Canseco stopped when he reached his position, looked around, smiled and began flexing his right biceps.
“They were having fun, and so was I,” said Canseco. “This is too big a show to get uptight. Anyway, it’s a compliment.” The next night, Canseco was greeted with the chant, “Just Say No! Just Say No!” and he tipped his hat to the fans for what he termed “their originality.”
I'm here to talk about the past.
by 67MARQUEZ on Feb 12, 2009 6:54 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes! I remember it well. Good call.
I’ve been a fan of the game since ’81 and the WS in ’86 was the first time I recall hearing the mocking chants with “Calvin” (Schiraldi) at Shea and “Darryl” at Fenway. It became the thing to do in Fenway from that time on, it seemed.
I can remember earlier that that reading an article where the words Jose Canseco Milkshake was used as a euphemism for steroids. It’s like everyone knew and didn’t give a damned. Believe me, the lack of pursuit for justice back then only caused more players to get their own smoothies in the blender.
by LowcountryJoe on Feb 12, 2009 6:58 PM PST up reply actions
Probably wasn't earlier with the Milkshake reference
This story talks of the first time the words were spoken in the media, supposedly.
What I think I recall seeing is the photographs of Canseco in the low minors as a tall yet skinny young player.
by LowcountryJoe on Feb 12, 2009 7:17 PM PST up reply actions
Oh yeah, I definitely remember wondering more about the ball being juiced
And Canseco got the “steroids” chant even earlier than that, late 1980s, didn’t he?
That didn’t mean that most people knew a lot of players were using then, though.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
Yes and no
The thing is, if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, you can pretty much assume it’s a duck.
Heard that before
But it wasn’t clear that it was a duck in most cases.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
It was pretty clear...
Look at it this way. In 2000, a lot of people were in the stock market betting on the dot com boom being permanent, reading books like “The Dow at 36,000.” At the same time, those same people were looking at internet companies and noticing that NONE OF THEM MADE MONEY. It’s not hard to put 2+2 together to make 4. But if your investments were going up, up, and up, and your broker waselling you they’ll continue to go up, up, and up, it was easy to suspend your disbelief and stay right where you were. That’s human nature. You didn’t want to see the duck, so you didn’t see the duck…but yeah, you DID see the duck.
It was pretty clear...
Look at it this way. In 2006, a lot of people were in real estate offices betting on the housing boom being permanent…. (I could go on…)
And yes, I saw the duck.
"I have more questions after these."-WaddellCanseco
by Gaijin_Suketto on Feb 13, 2009 3:24 PM PST up reply actions
Your post was kind of hard to follow
but this is much clearer
No, the game wasn’t saved if a) the fix was temporary; b) the fix was built on a dishonest foundation; and c) the fix could not withstand the growing shame of the sport in concert with a near depression.
I can see your point but I think Baseball is strong enough to withstand the shame of the steroid era (especially with fans like me who want PEDs out of the game but aren’t crushed by the era).
The recession most likely will negatively affect Baseball’s bottom line in 2009 because people will have less disposable income but I think some people might turn to Baseball to forget the fact that the economy is in the tank. People like to be distracted from there problems. Baseball provides two ways to do that, by entertaining and giving people an excuse to get drunk.
I think you will have a hard time proving the "temporary fix" failed because of steroids. If the economy was fine it would be easier to tell.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
To My Many Detractors
I don’t really care if you recommend the diary or not.
I see a lot of smug indifference to my fundamental thesis in these replies.
And then some shaky logic trying to liken the excesses and abuses of the past 15 years to various parts of the game’s past.
I never said the sport wouldn’t survive— it will. But the fundamental assertion I was attacking is barely defended by any of you— that somehow we should go light on Mac and others because, after all, they “saved” the sport (after its self-induced collapse from the strike)— with the powers-that-be winking all the way.
And my fundamental point is that the measurement must be more than the bottom line— and that the corruption running deep in baseball’s innards will ultimately sprout in a way that affects the bottom line. That eventually our inability to determine who’s cheating and who’s not, who’s honest and who’s not, who’s juicing and who’s not will severely damage our enjoyment and appreciation of the sport.
And that the records are not a defense of exclusionary and racist policies, or an excuse to diminish the impact of greenies, but promote a simple cry of “stop” when all the records and all the record-holders are found to be dishonest. Imagine if you will that Ruth and Foxx and Greenberg and Gehrig— white as they were— were all found to be using a device in their bats that made their fly balls go further— and so were Mays and Mantle. I can remember the great 50 home run question that blossomed with Cecil Fielder— who was the first player other than George Foster to hit 50 bombs in a generation— there were 10— Ruth, Foxx, Greenberg, Mantle, Maris, Mays, Fielder, Foster, and then the two nobody got— Johnny Mize and Ralph Kiner. Ten years later nobody in their right mind could count the 50 home run hitters. And the sport lost a lot in that transition.
So mine may be a lonely voice here— that’s fine— but I won’t stop talking. This hurts— I love this game but now I have grown to distrust it. I don’t really care how many orgies NBA players go to or how often they smoke weed, or how many NFL drug-addled stars are packing heat— because I don’t love those sports the way I do baseball. It was a cheap thrill— and the sport deserves so much better than that. And the pain is worsened by the knowledge that the team i care about most was among the most complicit— whether we like to admit that or not.
Detractor here
That eventually our inability to determine who’s cheating and who’s not, who’s honest and who’s not, who’s juicing and who’s not will severely damage our enjoyment and appreciation of the sport.
This presupposes the idea that we actually care who’s juicing. Or that we care about the records. Some of us like baseball for reasons other than its purity. Like the competition. The intricacies. The escape. The idea that the records might not be valid, while worth discussion, just doesn’t cause me to lose any sleep.
Your reverence of/for baseball is neither uncommon nor unjustified. In my eyes, however, the innocence was lost long ago. Now, instead of trying to make baseball fit my paradigm of moral purity, I can enjoy it for what it is. An awesome sport.
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
"Will ultimately sprout in a way that affects the bottom line"
- You’ve made that assertion multiple times now; care to substantiate it? MLB’s revenue during the steroid-discussion era of 2002-08 has been on a huge upward trajectory. Game attendance went up each of those years until ’08, when it leveled slightly. if this is all just build up to a crash to come, why not yet? Surely not just because of A-Rod.
- In your answer, please endeavor not to conflate the horse of the recession with the cart of PEDs
- You have a rhetorical style and refined vocabulary which is reminiscent of someone I knew once. But I’m certainly not here to talk about the past.
"There is a sense of tragic destiny associated with people who have large noses." --Bucky Wunderlick
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Feb 12, 2009 9:25 PM PST up reply actions
3. The thought once crossed my mind, but now I'm sure of it. Dash-dash-space. !! ??
I am here to talk about the past. Welcome back, ’toon!
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
by JediLeroy on Feb 12, 2009 9:56 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Hmmmmmmmmmm
And the comments-per-post ratio has been shrinking, too.
The haughty, smarter-than-everyone-else attitude is a perfect match with madmongoose, too. So is that ‘—’ tendency, yep.
Now THIS is the kind of circumstantial evidence that holds up when scrutinized. ;-)
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
He had to know he was going to get caught.
That’s the only way I can explain his undeviating punctuation style. You’d think you’d change something if you didn’t want people to find out. Again.
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
I definitely remember madmongoose being an obnoxious guy...
…who had to make sure everyone knew how smart he really was (even when he was wrong) in a very wordy manner.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
Looks like this discussion
already happened. Funny how much this changes things.
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
fsu is quite the sleuth on this issue
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
Looks like he's four months late on this one
I knew this wasn’t the first time this had been discussed.
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
Bad boys, bad boys/Whacha gonna do windy come for you ...
A B -3X = Swedish girls like chocolate @('.')@
wow
not sure what this means. Love how you apply yourself to something so important, though. That’s OK— I am just being a voice in the wilderness here— I appreciate that a lot of people dismiss steroids are have grown indifferent to the story— no biggie— the whole thing saddens me, and does make the game less. That’s all I’m trying to say.
I think you know exactly what it means, madmongoose
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
For my part, I am perfectly happy to judge windyfelix
on his own posting merits, as I would any AN member. People re-inventing themselves can be a good thing.
"There is a sense of tragic destiny associated with people who have large noses." --Bucky Wunderlick
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Feb 13, 2009 9:42 AM PST up reply actions
Doesn't look like much of a reinvention to me
Looks like more of an attempt to just change names and continue posting the same way in an effort to make people think he’s not the guy who quickly developed the reputation he did.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
Of course, in AN: The Movie, oaktoon/madmongoose/windyfelix will be played by Gabriel Byrne, and I’ll be played by Kevin Spacey …
A B -3X = Swedish girls like chocolate @('.')@
I want Pete Postlethwaite to play me
"There is a sense of tragic destiny associated with people who have large noses." --Bucky Wunderlick
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Feb 13, 2009 10:17 AM PST up reply actions
Would you settle for Benicio?
Kobayashi’s a lawyer … let’s see, I could go predictable, and say he plays xbx. Or I could just try and piss you off and cast him as TDF. Or I could think outside the box … yes, Postlethwaite plays PT.
A B -3X = Swedish girls like chocolate @('.')@
Cheeta will come out of retirement.
You’re the part he was born to play.
by green star oakland on Feb 13, 2009 11:24 AM PST up reply actions
As for me,
I’ll be played by Joaquin Phoenix, thank you very much.
I know what the man said about retirement, but I figure if I slip him some dope beats, or maybe just some dope, he’ll do a quick cameo for me…
"I have more questions after these."-WaddellCanseco
"Saved" baseball is a bit hyperbolic, I think...
…as baseball was not in any real danger of dying or fading away, but I do think McGwire & Sosa helped give the sport a kick start in bringing alot of fans back that were still pissed off over the strike.
And yes, I know “alot” is two words. ;-)
I could prove God statistically. Take the human body alone - the chances that all the functions of an individual would just happen is a statistical monstrosity.
~George Gallup
Dude, you should get Ron Howard to drive YOUR boat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpraJYnbVtE
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Feb 13, 2009 11:04 PM PST reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
