Greener Grass, Episode 9: How it Could Work in San Jose
I am going all Journal of the Whills on you. The only difference is I actually completed all 9 Episodes (if you get this joke you are as big a geek as I and I love you for it).
To review... What other markets? What about the existing market? What specifics can we glean in San Jose? What are some potential spots in Oakland? What about attendance history? How do we make the fan experience awesome no matter where the stadium is built? Does transportation from the East Bay to the South Bay really suck? What sort of plan would keep the A's in Oakland?
This brings us to the final post I plan on making in this series that didn't start as a series... If San Jose then how?
The first step here is to identify the barriers to entry for the A's when it comes to the Capitol of Silicon Valley. Unlike Oakland, a stadium site and corporate support are not the expected challenges. I think we can all agree that MLB Territory designation is the highest hurdle. Second is the completed purchase of the land to be used for a stadium. Last is public support for the project.
To be honest, it is my belief that the second and third things on my list above will take care of themselves provided the first one does. As such, I am going to devote this post to MLB Territory, how the A's can get permission to go there and what a deal to cement the South Bay A's might look like.
MLB Territories are defined in Article VIII of the Major League Baseball Constitution (caution: this link is a PDF). Some common statements in the debate of MLB Territory as it relates to the A's and Giants are "All the other two team markets are shared so why isn't this one?" And, "The Giants own the rights to San Jose and can sue to block a move." There are other statements, but I think they all can be answered by looking at these two.
First, the two team markets that seem relevant to the territory discussion are Los Angeles, Chicago, New York and the Bay Area. The newest two team market (DC/Baltimore) is a different bird and we will get into that shortly. We all know what the Constitution says about the Bay Area: the A's get Contra Costa and Alameda Counties while the Giants get San Mateo, San Francisco, Santa Clara, Santa Cruz, Monterey and Marin Counties. But what about the other two team markets?
From the text of the MLB Constitution in Article VIII (Clubs and Territories), New York:
Chicago:
Los Angeles:
To save space, I have only included the language for one of the two teams in each market. That being said, the other team always has identical language with the exception of the last sentence (for obvious reasons).
In summary, it is true to state that the other two team markets are shared markets, more so than the Bay Area. The question then becomes how do the A's get permission? Can the Giants really sue to stop a move?
The answers to these two questions are also found in the MLB Constitution. First, how to get permission. Most things in MLB's business rules can be changed with a simple majority vote. There are two specific sections of the Constitution that deal with circumstances where a 3/4 majority is required to make changes. These are Article II, Section 9 (Election of the Commissioner) and Article V, Section 2(b). This second Article and Section contains eight separate clauses the last of which I have included the actual text below:
If you recall from above, Article VIII is what sets the territories of the Clubs. This means that to change territories a 3/4 vote of all the owners is what the A's would need.
But what if the Giants dissent? Who makes the call? This section of the Constitution provides the answer:
But what if the Giants don't like what Bud has to say? Bill Neukom is a lawyer you know? This is the relevant section of the MLB Constitution:
In other words, the Giants are contractually obligated to adhere to the arbitration decision of the Commissioner. To me, this does not mean that Bud Selig (if he decides San Jose is the way to go) will impose his will and take a territory from a team, it means he will broker a deal between two teams for a shared territory and get the support of the necessary owners to have it ratified. So what might that deal look like?
Admittedly, the deal between Los Natspos and the Orioles is not a case of apples v. apples when compared to the Heroic Nine in Green and Gold and the Black and Orange Bad Guys. The challenge that Peter Angelos had with the new Washington Club was media revenue, not operating territory. Because of this, the deal was not actually agreed upon until well after the Nationals were moving in. I don't expect that to be the case this time. If a deal is struck it will be in place prior to any announcement of a move. So what does that barrel of apples say about our bucket of oranges? Or, how is the Orioles deal relevant to a potential Giants deal?
First, let's look at what the Orioles got in the deal and why. There were three points:
- MLB guaranteed a franchise value of $360 Million
- MLB guaranteed media revenue by giving the Orioles controlling interest in a new regional sports network
- MLB guaranteed over all revenue would not dip below $130 Million.
These three points addressed Angelos' concerns that the Orioles would lose value/revenue by losing some of it's fanbase (sound familiar?) and lose a dominant position in the television market (not really an issue with San Jose). In 2004, the season before the move, the Orioles were worth about $300 Million on revenues of about $130 Million (based on Forbes reports).That is where the numbers included in the deal came from.
So how did this deal work out for MLB? In 2009, the Orioles are worth $400 Million with revenues of $174 Million... looks like MLB won't have to be shelling out any cash to them based on the agreement. Meanwhile, the Nationals are worth almost 4 times as much as the Expos were. I'd call that a good deal for all involved and a sort of blueprint for any future deals of a similar nature.
What is a good deal in terms of the Bay Area? The Giants current value, per Forbes, is $471 Million on revenues of about $200 Million. So the deal starts at maintaining those revenues and guaranteeing a slight uptick in franchise value. The Orioles were guaranteed 20% in franchise appreciation over their present value in 2004, I'd expect less of a percentage for the Giants because the A's are already in direct competition for fans. The Giants other concern is paying a mortgage and this concern replaces the media domination the Orioles sought. So here are the deal points that should appease the Giants:
- Franchise value guaranteed by MLB at $518 Million (a 10% increase).
- Annual revenue guaranteed by MLB of $200 Million.
- Annual payments by the A's to the Giants from year one of a new stadium through 2017 of $8.5 Million (or half the Giants mortgage).
This is a deal that should get the A's the right to pursue the South Bay. The question becomes "does the stadium debt the A's take on in San Jose plus the annual payments to the Giants erase the revenue gains they expect by moving into a new stadium?" Another question would be "does this total number compare favorably with whatever deal is structured in Oakland?" Only time will tell, I suppose.
In closing out these Greener Grass posts I want to thank everyone who has taken part in the discussions of each article. I didn't set out to write these with a plan for convincing people of any particular scenario outside of the fact that the A's are best served staying in the Bay Area. I hope that I have challenged your assumptions and that you have found these to be constructive on the whole. I have learned a tremendous amount about a lot of things in the course of writing these and I hope you have learned something in reading them.
Go A's!
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Nice work
I figured the Giants’ mortgage would come into play at some point and it makes sense for the A’s to try and offer to help cover that expenditure as part of a San Jose deal. A key point that needs to be included in all this is the media market shares awarded to each team. Media revenue is maybe the key source of outside (non-ticket/concession) revenue for a major league team and the Oakland A’s have been sucking hind tit for a long time. Their move to San Jose would be severely compromised if it didn’t include access to greater media revenue streams.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Great work Jeffro on the series.
One note on the “deal” you’ve struck between the A’s and Giants: Should the next CBA run 6 years, it might be possible to make the revenue shifting arrangement fall entirely within that CBA and then sunset out naturally.
Some may decry the Giants’ guaranteed revenue, but as we’ve seen with the Orioles, it’s not a big deal after a few years since, over time, rising TV contracts and league revenues tend to eclipse the guaranteed minimum. Even though official numbers haven’t been released, this is supposed to be the first year in a long time that MLB actually surpasses NFL in league revenue ($6.2B vs. $6.0 B).
that is some serious scratch
Sixty two thousand million. Holy crap.
by jeffro on Dec 5, 2009 1:34 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
This series has been awesome
Thanks jeffro :-)
Is this the real life-
Is this just fantasy-
Caught in a landslide-
No escape from reality-
No way the Giants get that much
In the DC situation, baseball had been collectively owning and operating the Expos on a shoestring. Rebadging them as the Nationals, into a (perceived) sexy new territory, with a sweet ballpark deal already in the works, raised their value 4-5 times over. The profits at sale went to MLB as a whole, and its 29 owners…in other words, there was cash on hand to use to appease Angelos, whose local rights/lost value claims were far stronger than the Giants’ are (since SF already shares its market). Given the dubious-even-by-baseball-standards monopolistic chicanery with Jeffrey Loria, John Henry, and MLB swapping the Red Sox/Marlins/Expos franchises around, it probably didn’t seem like too much to pay to put the whole unseemly mess behind them.
Today, by contrast, there is no magic pool of free money like the Nationals deal created. The A’s alone, wealthy though Wolffish may be, can’t pony up what the entire league did the last time. And I doubt anyone expects them to. I’ve always felt Selig and MLB’s attitude towards the Giants, should they get near unanimity to allow the A’s to move south, would be more akin to Stalin’s towards the pope.
Everybody's got a little light under the sun.
The question that isn't addressed is how the Giants' fan base is affected
and I don’t think us moving to San Jose has them gain or lose any fans. The premise of the deal seems to also rely on the idea that there is a finite pot of fans in the Bay Area, which I don’t think is true. Hell, for the A’s sake, I really hope this isn’t true!
What is true is that the A’s gain more in this deal from a population perspective, but the Giants also gain the Alameda and CCC territory. If anything, the movement of the A’s to SJ might, sadly, cause many fans to turn coats and root for the Giants because they’ll be closer than the A’s. Nevertheless, I don’t mind guaranteeing the Giants revenue, but considering what they lose — potentially nothing but likely something – I don’t see why the extra money should come out of the A’s alone.
Disclaimer: The thought of paying the gnats half of their mortgage makes my stomach turn.
This has all been great, jeffro. I’m glad someone who knows what they are talking about has taken the time to analyze the possibilities.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
A's moving to San Jose doesn't hurt Giants at all.
It’s not about compensation for damages; it’s about getting compensation just because they can.
A’s having a better stadium does hurt the Giants, regardless of where in the Bay Area it is.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Regardings the following:
In other words, the Giants are contractually obligated to adhere to the arbitration decision of the Commissioner. To me, this does not mean that Bud Selig (if he decides San Jose is the way to go) will impose his will and take a territory from a team, it means he will broker a deal between two teams for a shared territory and get the support of the necessary owners to have it ratified. So what might that deal look like?
What’s the inflation rate for what the A’s originally “sold” the rights to the Giants? Whatever that is, is it’s fair market value within MLB If the Giants want to complain, they only have themselves to blame for getting one hell of a deal before.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
The economics for a new stadium still don't work, even in San Jose
This has been a great series of posts jeffro. Thanks for your insights and hard work.
I wrote in a post in January of ‘08 that the Fremont ballpark would fail.
The 2007 debacle with subprime mortages and plummeting housing prices will kill the new ballpark in Fremont. The A’s will have to rethink their planned move, and likely remain in Oakland………..But Lou and his investors are pretty savvy investors, and they are not about to invest huge dollars into a project that depends upon new homes and a thriving economy. There is no need for them to announce today that the project is dead. They don’t have to put their money down today. But no one would invest in this project today. So you will see this drama play out, Fremot and the other players going through the motions, but this project doesn’t make sense now, and when the time comes for everyone to pony up—they will not.
And of course it did fail, and the reasons were economics. At the time there were comments that Lew and his group had already put a lot of money down—but they had not. Much of these investments are done by securing options to go ahead—not by committing $10’s of million.
The economy looks better today than when I wrote that post. But there is still very significant chance that this perceived turnaround is not for real. Or even if it is, that we’re going to be a flat economy for many, many years. Neither private investors nor San Jose is going to step up with money to back this kind of a project until we’re well out of the economic downturn that we’re in. It’s certainly possible that just like with Fremont we’ll see discussions, and “commitments” to invest, etc., but the economics of a new stadium are just not going to work for at least a decade.
So that leaves Lew in quite a mess. He has disowned Oakland and the A’s fans. And he was foolish to do that because it left him without a backup plan if things were to go awry-and of course they did. Attendance was rising and I think about 26,000 when he bought the club. It’s fallen every year of his ownership, until now he is last in baseball in attendance. Yes the economy has hurt everyone, but the A’s attendance has fallen far faster than the others.
The A’s need a plan to stay in Oakland in their current stadium-they should have had such a backup plan from the beginning. It’s not going to be easy to win back support of a deteriorating fan base (in numbers of course—there are plenty of die hards including me that will always support the club). But Lew has a big time mess on his hands, and his lack of planning, particularly in not having contingency plans, puts the blame squarely with him. I wrote a post a year ago, Lew’s first four years are a failure, imo, and I would argue all of those points are still valid.
Okay
So that leaves Lew in quite a mess. He has disowned Oakland and the A’s fans. And he was foolish to do that because it left him without a backup plan if things were to go awry-and of course they did. Attendance was rising and I think about 26,000 when he bought the club. It’s fallen every year of his ownership, until now he is last in baseball in attendance. Yes the economy has hurt everyone, but the A’s attendance has fallen far faster than the others.
I think it is completely wrong to look at A’s attendance over 4 years and draw the conclusion that Lew wasted an attendance boom in the making. If you go back and look at attendance for the A’s over their entire history it is wrought with similar peaks and valleys. I wrote a post that is linked above about the A’s attendance history not sure if you read it or disagree with the general statement that this is inline with past performance for the club while in Oakland.
I would argue that the attendance dip now (to a level that is consistent with their late 90’s out of contention phase) is more due to the trading away of Nick Swisher, Dan Haren, etc. than anything Lew Wolff has said or done. Though, I would imagine even with Nick Swisher and Dan Haren the team would still be struggling at the gate because they would be just as bad a team as they have been the past two seasons.
It will be interesting to see how the stadium tug of war plays out. Both Oakland and San Jose are already investing in potential stadiums (in city employee time, buying land, and conducting studies). So for some reason, they believe the economics will work.
More on attendance,
My apologies for oversimplifying, but I take away two main points from your attendance post. First, Oakland is not one of the first tier baseball towns in the US, and it’s difficult to consistently be a leader in attendance. Second, that being said, there are models such as the White Sox and the Pirates that demonstrate that good attendance is possible with good programs and a good stadium site. I agree with those points.
But my point on attendance is that Lew took over a program on April 1, 2005 that was on the upswing. Attendance dropped in his first two years even with excellent on the field results.From my post of last year
Attendance had grown to 27,000+ per game, not great but improving. Oakland was a little less than average in the major leagues—19th out of 31 teams. Playoff results had been disappointing, and there had been fan disappointment with the loss of some high performing and loved players—Giambi and Tejada for example. But in my view, and I believe many fans at the time, we were excited about the teams prospects.
But in his first year as GM the attendance slid 4% despite a second place finish. And then slipped again in 2006 despite winning the division. In fact in 2006 we played for the pennant, but were 10% below the attendance levels of the 2003 and 2004 seasons. I believe that A’s fans knew what it meant when Lew put a new ballpark as his top priority—bye, bye Oakland. And now after 5 years of Lew’s reign, the A’s have fallen from 19th in attendance to last, and attendance is down 36% from the 2003/2004 levels.
I too would like the A’s to have a great new stadium. But you have to play the hand that is dealt. And IMHO there is not going to be $100’s of millions invested on sports stadiums in the Bay Area in the near future. I grant you that cities may do studies and investors look at a prospectus, just as happened in the Fremont situation. But large public funds are certainly not going to be available. And investors are not going to step up to the plate, especially in California where the tax situation and regulatory environment are so unfriendly to business investment of this type.
Unfortunate that Lew has blown off Oakland area fans. It won’t be easy to turn that around, but it can be done. Might be more easily done by the management group firing Lew and announcing a recommitment to a great team playing in the Oakland Coliseum. That might make the change in strategy seem more believable. I just don’t see a real alternative in today’s environment.
Yo
So I don’t want to run this into a tit for tat. I don’t think anyone could say Lew has done great by the fans, so I basically agree with you on your general thesis that Lew has not been successful as an owner thus far from a fans perspective. And I don’t want to turn this into an attendance discussion (but I will).
First, attendance, in the current MLB set up, is not that huge of a revenue stream relative to league sources and media. It’s a piece of the pie and important for sure, but I just don’t think attendance is going to vary all that much between San Jose or Oakland in a new stadium. I expect that the team will probably be at about 26k per season in either place after 5 years (though the San Jose Economic Impact Analysis put the number at 24k). Either way, the A’s aren’t expecting a huge uptick in attendance no matter where they play.
Second, the over all attendance decline coincides with two things. First a reduction in the size of the stadiums capacity, by a lot. Second, an abrupt roster rebuild. Based on Forbes valuations, etc. I’d say that the reduction in capacity/roster rebuild has actually worked to the business advantage of the A’s. Their revenue situation/value has improved.
Third, I must have explained myself wrong in the attendance post- Pittsburgh and the White Sox were examples of teams that have not seen much of a positive change in their attendance relative to other teams. In the White Sox case, this is despite winning a fairly recent World Series. The Pirates have sucked so long I am amazed anyone buys season tickets in that place :) The examples of teams who have made it work are San Diego, San Francisco and Cleveland.
In the end, it isn’t the total number of people through the gates that matters so much. It is the “quality” of ticket buyers. The A’s need a new spot with far fewer premium seats and more wealthy folks who want to pay for them.
thanks, & I agree on no tit for tat,
you make great points and I have very much enjoyed your posts. I guess my main point is that the A’s will by necessity be in the Coliseum for a long time, and that is of course just an opinion, though I believe based on a reasonable assessment of the economy and its implications for this kind of investment over the next few years. But only time will tell, so I think it’s best to let that happen, time pass that is, and revisit it in the future. Also interested in how long Lew stays around.
Thanks for these very informative and stimulating posts!
Thanks for reading
You called Fremont at a time when most, including me, would prefer to look at it with rose colored glasses. I hope you are wrong about the Coliseum :)
Wow
Can I just say kudos to alamedaman and jeffro for having one of the most articulate, constructive discussions I have seen on AN for a while? Both disagreeing without being disagreeable, as they say. Thank you Jeffro for your great posts, and thanks to both of you for modeling how a really constructive conversation can occur between people with differing views.
Absolutely recommended!
I have to say that my gut feeling is the A’s will indeed end up in San Jose. I would love it if they were able to stay in Oakland but if San Jose ended up being their new home, you won’t hear any complaints from me.
IIRC, I love how the Giants claim to have territorial rights in San Jose when the A’s were the one’s who gave those rights to the Giants in the first place, only to have the Giants not end up moving to San Jose, staying in SF instead, and now the A’s most likely are going to have to pony up cash to the Giants to even sniff a new stadium in the San Jose area!
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
Fantastic Series
Jeffro you did awesome with these. I know that there was some heated debate in some, but really it comes down to the fact that we all want to see the A’s in the Bay for years to come. I thought you did an excellent job of maintaining that stance.
"I was right and you were wrong." - Ray Fosse
Awesome series!
I also wonder whether the Giants might be forgiven a portion of their revenue sharing responsibilities as part of the compensation for moving. This would make sense if the A’s moving to San Jose would reduce league-wide revenue sharing. It could then be win-win-win, with the parties being Giants-A’s-Other teams.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
The A's cannot compete as is stands
A move out of Oakland and into the South Bay remains the best move. They will be gaining a media market while losing a minimal amount of fans. A baseball only stadium that actually looks like a baseball stadium is long overdue, especially when SF boasts a new and popular stadium. It is obvious with the lack of upgrades to the Coliseum over the past 15 years that Oakland cannot sustain a hospitible atmosphere for baseball.
The whole territory issue is infuriating to me as a San Jose resident. The Giants were not wanted here years ago and it’s almost like we’re still paying for it. Another reason to hate the Giants and the commissioner’s office.
"If you don't take out his battery, he's going to keep going all day."
If MLB is guaranteeing the income ...
Why should the A’s have to pay a portion of what that income pays for?
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
Ultimately, what it will come down to, I think is...
The A’s cutting a rather sizable check to the Giants if/when the owners grant the A’s their territorial rights back.
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
Because
First, DEVO! How is the River City?
Second, the idea is that the Giants maintain their current revenue numbers, guaranteed by MLB and then “gain” an additional $8.5 Million to help with their mortgage. I don’t know if the A’s would actually cut a check or if the Giants could exclude it from revenue sharing. The thought is that the $8.5 Million is not included in the $200 Million and is not really revenue. That could have been more clear.
I have since heard some folks who should know say that this $8.5 Million is probably not necessary and that the other two are more realistic.
































