A Good Trade Doesn't Have To Be Foxy
by Nico on Dec 4, 2009 7:36 PM PST
106 comments
Since the Jake Fox trade (which is totally different from "the Jeff Gray trade"), I've heard mostly two predictions in regards to Jack Cust's future with the A's: Either this means Cust will be non-tendered or traded or it means humanity will be enduring the defensive stylings of either Cust or Fox in 2010. One way, the A's very bad offense of 2009 just got a bit worse. Another way, the A's have decided to emulate their favorite company softball team out in the field. However, I really don't see either of those two as the strongest possibility.
NO! Don't jump!!! You have so much to live for!!! {sees left side of the infield} Never mind. Jump.
What the Fox acquisition tells me, more than suggesting anything about Cust's immediate future with Oakland, is that the A's don't have designs on DHing Wallace or Carter over the next 2-3 years -- which is as it should be. If you look at a "5-year plan," as Beane must, Cust isn't in very much of it no matter what, and someone has to be. So don't write off Cust, or buy him a new glove, just yet.
In other news, the Marco Scutaro story -- that he turned down more money from Oakland to sign with the Red Sox -- continues a disturbing trend. Free agents don't want to come to Oakland, even when the A's open up their pocketbook and try to compete financially.
Apparently Oakland's clubhouse facilities are embarrassingly run down, and we know that attendance is so low even Thomas Edison would have difficulty discovering any electricity there on a typical weeknight. The A's have a team that figures to be good pretty soon, so "lack of competitiveness" should be less and less of a factor each year right now. Yet the results are the same: Players will pay Oakland in order not to play for them. This makes me a sad panda. New stadium, please -- Oakland, San Jose, My House. Anywhere.
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as I mentioned on the other Scutaro thread....
an ad pitch like this: you want competitive ball for 162 games plus the playoffs, play in a city where the fans come out and support you, have teammates you’ve heard of, have a chance for a WS ring every year? Marco, why play little-league in Oakland? Come to Boston, we’re big league!!!
"just a beating heart ... plasma that we'll put into our uniform." - Billy Beane
by athleticsBB4life on Dec 4, 2009 7:42 PM PST reply actions
Pretty much my take
2010 A’s: meh
2010 Red Sox: playoff contenders, probably playoff bound.
Besides, Billy Beane traded him away. Why go back?
Nico, I feel your pain!
And it is odd that I just posted a comment about Scutaro that goes something like this…." I honestly feel like this sort of thing will continue to happen until the A’s get a stadium deal in place and we’re all going to have to live with it, unfortunately…."
Look to the future my friend, look to the future…….
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
holla
i dont think cust will be traded this year. I know there are some rumors going around, but i still think he’s more valuable to the a’s than anyone else. Plus I think it would unwise to trade the only guy on the team who could get you 30-ish homers…
"They (The 1989 A's) are the best team I ever saw"- Mike Krukow
I disagree with you on the Scutaro thing...
I don’t think it was as much about Oakland as it was about playing on a contender. No doubt he knew that he was very well liked by A’s fans when he was here. He had some great moments in Oakland but he was allowed to walk and went on to play everyday in Toronto. The difference between the A’s of 2009 and 2006 seems to me a big enough reason for him to want to stay away.
I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)
I agree
Keep in mind that he’s in his mid-30’s. If he’s interested in getting into the postseason it makes little sense to sign with a team that is in full rebuilding mode — and with a team that never considered him to be a starter at that.
Only a few short years ago there were all kinds of articles about how players were interested in coming to Oakland because of their great clubhouse camaraderie, laid back atmosphere, and good chances to contend every year…
by OaklandSi on Dec 4, 2009 8:08 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Yep
I will still yell “Marco”!!! with pride when the BoSux come to town, and I know someone will holla back when I do it. and oddly enough, I wont care if its an A’s fan or a Bos fan on the other side.
I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)
you can replace NOMAHHH!!! with MAHHHCO!!
"They (The 1989 A's) are the best team I ever saw"- Mike Krukow
Isn't it reasonably likely, though, that
the 2011 A’s will be as competitive as anyone? Maybe not as “perennial powerhouses” like BOS and NYY, I suppose.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
There's a fundamental difference between a team that can and will
spend what it takes to field a competitive team year-in and year-out and a team that trades away players on a regular basis to avoid paying them too much.
There’s also a difference to Scutaro between a team that offers him a starting shortstop position on a team built to win now and a team that is probably a season (at least) from perhaps contending that also once traded him away because he was too expensive and that never saw fit to give him a starting role of any sort.
by still bills kingdom on Dec 4, 2009 10:17 PM PST up reply actions
did you say Foxy...
"just a beating heart ... plasma that we'll put into our uniform." - Billy Beane
by athleticsBB4life on Dec 4, 2009 7:55 PM PST reply actions
I'm pretty sure I saw a bearded old man flying a kite with a key on it somewhere close to the 3B side.
He got nothing.
No, there's no light,
in the darkest of your furthest reaches.
Jake Fox is not Jack Cust.
Jack Cust is a valuable player not just because he hits a lot of homers but because he draws a lot of walks. Jake Fox is what Jack Cust would be if he only struck out and hit homers. Two true outcomes players are not very valuable.
Everyone remembers the 09 first half version of Cust who was both bad at hitting and displeasingly swung at everything right? Well, that’s who Jake Fox is all the time. Here
Fox remained ultra-aggressive, chasing 37.7% of pitches thrown outside of the strike zone (25% MLB average). He also took a cut at 77.8% of in-zone offerings, compared to the 66% major league average. His 56.7% swing rate ranked in the top 10 in the majors among batters with 240+ PA. Fox walked in just 6.1% of his PA.
Plus, Jack Cust has always been an impressive hitter in the minors. At age 22, he compiled a line of .278/.415/.525 in AAA with 25 home runs. At age 22, Fox hit .281/.357/.456 in high A ball with 8 home runs. Fox’s more impressive minor league numbers come from him either repeating leagues or playing in a league which he’s too old for.
The perception that Jake Fox is a younger Jack Cust with more years of team control is quite simply inaccurate. Fox and Cust are dissimilar hitters. As such, I find the notion that Fox would eventually be able to replicate or even better Cust’s hitting to be sketchy at best.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 4, 2009 8:04 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
Well, the A's must like Fox's hitting potential
because I’m pretty confident they didn’t acquire him for his defense. And while the A’s didn’t give up a ton, they did part with 3 players, one of whom was in the bigs and two others who still have some prospect potential.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
he is not as good as Cust and it's true what you say about the walks
but the comparison isn’t that far off.
Fox is built in the same mold as Cust, a batter who has showed some remarkably good hitting skills in the minors, is past prospect age status, has yet to get an extended Major League shot and is not well regarded for his glove.
linky
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
RBI's
It sounds like Fox has the potential to knock in some runs with runners in scoring position. Cust would rather take a walk, than swing at a “borderline” pitch with runners on 2nd and 3rd. Fox will at least swing the bat, alas Jay Payton.
Yeah, this is just plain wrong.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
When Fox swings at "borderline" pitches, which are usually "pitcher's pitches" how well
can he hit them?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 5, 2009 5:40 PM PST up reply actions
RBIs, duh
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does
There's room for both Cust and Fox.
If the roster stays the way it is right now, I could see this type of arrangement working out ok:
Against RHP:
Rajai CF, Barton 1B, Sweeney RF, Fox LF, Cust DH, Suzuki C, Chavez/McPherson 3B, Ellis 2B, Pennington SS
Barton hitting behind Rajai would be ok I think…Barton takes a lot of pitches by nature, but can also make consistent contact for hit and runs and whatnot and can get on base and has doubles power. Sweeney’s not a great 3-hole hitter, but I believe in his 2nd half of ‘09 and think he’s a good hitter with RISP. Fox actually showed a very slight platoon split in his minor league career. so his power is still present against RHP. Cust is a nice second 20+ homer threat out of 5-hole; Suzuki is also pretty good with RISP with his contact skills. Who knows what to expect from McChavson but maybe a bit of power. Ellis and Pennington will at least put together competitve at-bats.
Against LHP:
Rajai CF, Ellis 2B, Hairston LF, Fox 1B, Cust DH, Suzuki C, Sweeney RF, Miles 3B, Pennington SS
Here again, speed/contact up-top, platoon-power in 3-4, walks in the 5-hole, contact with Suzuki, and some major drop off in the bottom third, but still a bit of contact and speed.
Overall…you keep the glove out of Cust’s hands, put Fox in a few spots where he won’t be a huge defensively liability and maintain fairly good defense in 7 spots on the diamond. I mean, for a 2-4 month timeframe until Carter and Wallace take over, it’s a workable solution.
Simply replacing Fox with Cust does nothing for the offense in my opinion. By offering Scutaro some signifacant dough, I’m assuming the A’s aren’t operating with any type of major financial restrictions. Just keep Cust, don’t let him in the field and reinforce that what he was doing for 10 years before he decided to be “more aggressive” in the box is the best strategy for him, and you’re looking at fielding a lineup with something resembling a servicable middle of the order, when you account for platoon advantage.
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
by Taj Adib on Dec 4, 2009 10:04 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I may be alone on this one
But I quite like that RHP team – even more if McPherson has some success/health.
If he (and/or Fox) has any kind of bust out, we’re going to have a nice headache when Wallace + Carter are ready.
Is this the real life-
Is this just fantasy-
Caught in a landslide-
No escape from reality-
Speaking of sad pandas, the notion of platooning Daric Barton makes me one
Especially if the other end of it is Aaron Miles. Srsly? Miles should never, ever see the field unless someone is injured or taking a mandatory rest day. Which should, given that Aaron Miles is the backup, be very few and far between…
The lineup order is wrong here too… won’t bother to make a fuss over it cause it’s not that important, but…
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Fair enough.
Substitute Fox at 3rd and Barton at 1st. I also think Barton shouldn’t be platooned, I was just thinking that keeping Fox off of 3rd was best for defense and trying to keep max-power in the lineup. Basically throwing sh** at the wall and seeing what sticks.
I agree about Miles, BTW. Just thought that he has actually has some versatility at 2B/3B,mind as well use it.
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
vs. LHP
1B: Barton
2B: Ellis
SS: Pennington
3B: Fox
LF: Hairston
CF: Rajai
RF: Cunningham
DH: Cust
Sweeney should not be playing regularly vs. LHP. But, Geren will put him in the lineup anyway.
I think Sweeney needs to keep getting SOME ABs against lefthanders in the hope that he ultimately improves to "tolerable" against them
but I agree, it definitely does not need to be all or even most lefthanders. If he’s “rested” on 50% of the starts by opposing lefthanders, I’d be on board with that.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Hairston v. LHP
You don’t have Hairston any higher v. LHP? He is what we (or Beane) thought Kielty would be.
by rollierollieOxenfree on Dec 5, 2009 11:05 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with this general sentiment
I think its natural to try and make all the pieces fit perfectly but sometimes its better to just wait and let things work themselves out. The A’s have struggled to score runs lately and Jake Fox has given hints that he might be able to be an above average hitter at the major league level and can provide some right handed power which has been in short supply. He was blocked in Chicago and was available for a pretty modest deal.
I don’t think this has any specific implications for Cust’s spot on the team this year. As grover mentioned in the Scutaro thread the A’s have plenty of room in the payroll this year. The A’s can afford to add some hitters and let them compete for spots. If enough hitters pan out that the A’s find they don’t need Jack Cust they can find away to move him later.
It will be interesting to see how everybody will fit on the roster this year, but figuring out what to do with too many productive hitters is a problem I think the A’s will be happy to deal with once it actually arises, not before hand.
How is it that Beane kept Crosby over Scutaro?
I’d like to know how sabermetrics missed that one. I’ve always wondered if the biggest flaw of sabermetrics was exposed by the steroid era. That flaw being that outliers can simply be cheaters. I wonder if sabermetrics located performance enhancement drug users that the scouts otherwise dismissed? If so it would explain a lot about how this team suddenly collapsed and had so many “injuries” just after the steroid inquisition began. It’s something that’s been nagging at me for awhile.
As I recall
Crosby was stuck on the A’s. He already had his contract and the A’s were not going to have that expensive a player be a bench player. That meant Scoot was the bench player. And paying Marco the amount he would get and he deserved was simply not a good idea for a team with the A’s budget.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Sutaro signed
For all the hype for ellis professionalism and clubhouse influence, he’s still has his share of injuries and a streaky bat. $6.5 is no bargain either
False hope in murphy and hannahan as league minimum IFs backfired
scutaro- 01/17/08: Signed a two-year, $2.65 million contract. 2009: $1.1 million, 2010 : Free Agent
crosby- 04/22/05: Signed five-year, $12.75 million contract ($250,000 signing bonus). 2009: $5.25 million, 2010: Free Agent
ellis – 10/2/08: Signed 2 year, $11M contract w/ 2011 club option. 2009: $5M, 2010: $6M, 2011: $6M club option w. $0.5M buyout
Right
Ellis signed after ‘08. For the 2008 season, Scutaro was blocked at SS by Crosby (who was more expensive than Marco) , blocked at 2b by Ellie (who was/is better than Scoot), and blocked at 3b by Chavvy (who’s both more expensive and better).
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
but it wouldn't have been difficult to predict at least one of those players getting hurt
by that time all 3 guys has spend a sizable amount of time on the DL. They were banking on Murphy being a decent back up.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
The A's didn't lack for IF backups
Murphy wasn’t the only one available at the time, either. Petit had his best season in 2007.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
re: Crosby vs Scutaro...
So, apparently, fielding the best possible team wasn’t as important as “getting our money’s worth”. That’s how I interpret it, anyway.
Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you. ~Reggie Jackson
I interpreted it as their thinking Scutaro wasn't as good as he showed in the second
half of 2006, and that he was probably worse than Crosby. The first might be true, but he was easily that good in 2009. The second was definitely not true.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 5, 2009 5:42 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah
As of the end of 2007, the vast majority of people, including the A’s FO, believed that Crosby would be a better player than Scutaro in 2008. Anything else is frankly revisionist bullshit.
Crosby’s 2006 and 2007 could be, until 2008, dismissed as seasons in which he wasn’t healthy enough to contribute significantly. 2008 was the first Crosby season which combined “healthy” and “awful” in the same year.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
hell,
i thought Crosby would be better than Scutaro then. It’s amazing what actually playing games does for a player’s percieved talent.
"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.
by DyeLongJustice on Dec 6, 2009 12:09 AM PST up reply actions
Heh.
I know, I know, hindsight. But I still laughed at this.
Scutaro is basically Neifi Perez
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
Chaos Reigns!
There is no "i" in Teamocil. At least not where you'd think.
by GreenNGoldSooner on Dec 5, 2009 12:21 AM PST reply actions
Tejada
Do A’s attempt to pursue him at a similar deal w/ less yrs. 2 yr/10mill seems like a reasonable offer.
How about Fox at 3B when Braden or Gio is starting and Miles/Petit at 3B when a GB
pitcher is starting? What’s that? Miles and Petit are terrible? Braden and Gio are lefties? Yes, but I can’t see any other way this makes any sense.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
I'm not covinced they are thinking that much about it
Fox is RH bat that can hit righties and hold a glove at 3B. If he can improve defensively he’d become a good fit. If there’s anyone like Wash use to be that can help, he might stick. That’s what I’m thinking.
by Ran on Dec 5, 2009 1:10 PM PST up reply actions
Chone Figgins reaches deal with Mariners
Have a glove you could spare for a good cause? If so please let me know
This is good news for me.
It means I’ll have lots of opportunity to yell CHOOOOOOONNNEEE! at LB in the game threads.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
seems like a good price, $9 million a year
I have a stats question, on fangraphs in the value section it has a listing called dollars that is WAR converted to a dollar scale based on what a player would make in free agency. How accurate is that stat?
It says Figgins was worth $27.4 in 2009, I assume the figures are in millions? And he has been worth at least $9.2 in 5 of his 8 seasons but the last 3 seasons it has been at least $11. Even if he regresses to his 07-08 value the Mariners would still be getting a good deal right?
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
oops, forgot this
Plus a link to an article on the signing
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
OK
so this article answers a lot of my questions.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
$27M for players in the most current season
or $27M in simply overall contract value? Either assumption seems off.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 5, 2009 8:10 PM PST up reply actions
It's a running average over the past three years.
And it’s only free agents.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
It's very accurate for what it measures.
As you saw in the article, it’s the average going rate for WAR points produced by free agents.
You just have to remember that that’s what it is, and not let the allure of simplification lead you to take that figure as “what he’s really worth”.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
gotcha
I have to try hard not to think in simple terms sometimes.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
They are in millions
The idea of the stat is to sum the WAR of all FA’s and divide by how much money they got. The stat is useful to see if a team overpaid or underpaid a FA compared to league average. However, because of the 6 years of player control/arbitration system, no team could afford to pay all their players based on $/WAR. Therefore, when looking at that stat, one needs to factor in a team’s payroll and other considerations to find if a deal is good deal for them.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
it would pretty insane to base salary on the stat
It seems it really only helps evaluate past experiences instead of helping predict future ones? thanks for the help.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
Sort of
The $4.5M-ish per WAR notion is basically one that can be projected forward (although it seems to be lower this offseason— whether that’s collusion, recession or both, hard to say).
It is, however, important to get a better estimate of how many WAR a player is worth than just “what he produced in his most recent season,” so in that sense the number of “millions” in the “value” stat isn’t all that relevant.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
You know, it's possible we're reading this Scutaro thing entirely backwards.
Presumably there were a lot of teams inquiring about Scutaro. Maybe Scoot’s agent put out the message to all of them, “Don’t waste your time with an offer because he wants to play for Boston,” so nobody else made an offer. But to Oakland maybe it was a mixed signal like “well, you’re the one other team he might consider, so let’s see what you’ve got”. In which case the conclusion would be that he really just wanted to play for Boston, but of the remaining 29 teams Oakland was the most desirable, not the least.
Now I’m not saying I know this was the case, or even that it was probable. I have no special information on this. But that’s the point. There’s a whole lot we don’t know and any number of possible explanations. But everyone is leaping to the one explanation that fits their preconceived notions and agendas.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Except that the preconceived notions and agendas are a lot less convoluted
than your scenario. Sure, it’s possible. But since the A’s have been “Furcaled” before (that’s when a free agent looks at Oakland and throws up even before the Fatapples entree arrives)…Actually, my point is that while you’re right that we generally speculate without all the information that’s kind of what being a fan is all about.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
yep, this is the 2nd winter in a row
Beane has gone after the #1 FA SS on the market with a long term offer.
hmmmm…
The one positive, regarding Scutaro and the A's
is that it does show that they A’s are, at least, willing to spend a little this offseason, should they feel the player / price is right.
On the other hand, maybe they put in a bid (and leaked the details) for a popular player, whom they new they had no chance of landing, in an effort to appease fans worried at the craptastic nature of the players they’ve brought in so far?
The plot, like my blood after a burrito from La Tacqueria Guadalajara, thickens
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does
On the other thread, it was persuasively argued
that this leak probably came from the Red Sox, not the Athletics.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Psh, you're not thinking big enough. This goes to the top! And don't think that that means the POTUS.
A higher authority than that! Boston is a very Catholic town, the Pope was Catholic.
I’m just asking questions. That’s all I’m doing. America, I want you to do the same.
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does
If I'm an agent I'd encourage every team on the planet to make an offer.
What’s the downside?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 5, 2009 5:43 PM PST up reply actions
The downside is doing a whole lot of work
that your client isn’t asking for. If I’m an agent and my client says “I only want to play for the Red Sox, the Yankees or the A’s,” then I’m not going spend my days jerking around the Mariners, the Royals, the Twins, the White Sox, the Rays, the Rangers, the Tigers, and the Indians. Besides wasting a lot of my time, it probably doesn’t improve my relationship with the GMs whose time I also wasted when they find out my client was never serious about them in the first place.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Working on contingency/commission does tend to concentrate the mind wonderfully, doesn't it
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
I thought advanced stats showed there was no such thing as Klutz Hitting?
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does
I grew up watching Mickey,
and it’s true he rarely hit much of anything.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Of course...
he never really got consistent AB’s…
;)
I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)
Obviously, there is a problem,
but other than Scutaro, who turned down more money here to go somewhere else? I’m blanking.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
Arguably Furcal
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Well, I'd say we lowballed Furcal,
so it’s hard to say that he chose another place over money. But I’d rather just never hear his name again.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
Giambi?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 5, 2009 5:44 PM PST up reply actions
Still took more money, no?
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
Some info on Fox's service time status
He has approximately 146 days of service time, meaning if he’s on the 25 man roster the next two seasons he’ll be making just over the league minimum.
I said if because he does have 1 option remaining.
But sticking with the assumption that he’ll be on the big league roster from here on out, he’s almost certain to be Super-2 arbitration eligible after the 2011 season.
And in case anyone’s interested, I’ve updated the A’s 40 man roster here. I did the easy thing and subtracted Miles’ 2010 contract by $1 million rather than show the Cubs’ financial assistance elsewhere.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Was it more money over the life of the contract?
but less per year? So, say, 3 years/$15M
or more money and more years? 3 years/$20M
I read the MLBTR story but they didn’t clarify what we offered. In any case, I like him but I’m not sure he’s worth the latter amount. Best of luck to him, though, even though he joins the beaners.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
Jack Cust implications
From the Merc News (rotoworld link), it sounds as the Fox acquisition sets up a cost-benefit analysis of Cust post-arbitration.
Geez, 27 homers isn’t worth $4 million? At least it allows Beane a trading chip in Cust. I’d rather he trade Cust (who could be overvalued as an HR producer, to a GM who misunderstands defensive value or strikeout totals) than Sweeney (still developing) or Hairston (still gets an oppty to show he can mash) or Rajai (anyone else going to steal around here?).
What sucks is that part of the equation is Chavez at part-time DH (or 3B). If Fox is DH, then Mr. Strut (McPherson) or Chavez (but not yet Wallace) mans that white spot over on the left side of the infield. Ugh. Eric has shown that when recovering from injuries, he’s still not that 280 AVG, 500 SLG player we need. I haven’t looked up McPherson’s “just coming off injury” stats, but I’m sure they are in the lower half of his performance.
So Cust to the Mets or Mariners – who do we want from there? How about that Hanahan guy, plays 3B….
surely, I jest.
by rollierollieOxenfree on Dec 5, 2009 11:00 PM PST reply actions
I'm usually the guy who says,
maybe the front office knows something that you don’t. But man, I really just don’t understand this. To me non-tendering Cust makes no sense in any scenario. If they’re really going to non-tender him, well, I guess they know something I don’t.
One thing gives me pause, though. When I read the article in the Merc, I see absolutely nothing that suggests this information is based on anything the A’s front office has actually said. The article says “Most signs point to their not tendering an arbitration offer to Cust”, but almost immediately after it acknowledges that “Billy Beane wouldn’t tip his hand on Cust”, which I read to mean the author got absolutely nothing out of the A’s on this question.
The article goes on to say that Fox could play 3B or DH, Chavez might be well enough to play 3B or DH, MacPherson could play 3B, Wallace might come up and play 3B, and Carter and/or Doolittle might come up and play DH. This potential logjam, apparently, constitutes “most signs”.
So I wonder if, the misleading Rotoworld blurb notwithstanding, there’s really nothing here other than a journalist spinning a whole story out of a non-answer from Beane.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
I repeat
Most of the baseball media are fucking idiots when it comes to the A’s finances. Last year the A’s opened the season with a (round numbers) $63 million payroll. They could slash that figure by 1/3 and still have enough room to pay Jack Cust and every other arbitration eligible player on the roster the high end of every potential negotiation.
Let me say that again.
The A’s could go into 2010 with a $40 million payroll and not need to cut anyone on the current 40 man roster to make ends meet.
If Jake Fox can do nothing but DH and Jack Cust hasn’t completely forgot how to hit the ball then the absolute worse case scenario for the A’s in 2010 is that they need to burn Fox’s last option and send him down to AAA. I don’t know why Beane is being coy about Cust’s arbitration status but as near as I can tell there is no fiscal need to remove him from the books.
The monster at the end of this blog.
That article does read a little along the lines of
‘I don’t see Jack Cust as a player who wins, as he strikes out to much, so here’s a story on how the A’s don’t need him, based on this shiny new guy we got who played in Chicage (and therefore is surely good?)’.
Though, who knows. I guess we’ll see shortly.
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does
There is one quote that worries me
“We’ve still got some time to decide, and that’s certainly a matter of in-house conversation right now,” Beane said. “The decision has yet to be made on Jack, and no doubt, it’s one of the bigger ones we have to make in the next week or so.”
‘The next week or so’ part definitely implies a nontendering. Is Beane being deliberately misleading? Why? It could only hurt trade offers for Cust if he’s looking to trade him. Trying to get Cust to agree to a cheaper deal?
If the A’s decline to offer arbitration to Cust, it will be the stupidest decision I’ve seen the A’s make since I’ve been a fan. At the very least the A’s could offer arb and trade him later.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Im thinking he's just being cautious
if Carlos Delgado or Jim Thome can be had for $3MM then that’s similar production over Cust at $5MM.
Similar production that's less likely to stay healthy all year.
Or in the case of Delgado, probably better production that’s even less likely to stay healthy.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Do you think delgado is done?
Id say after a year off he will healthier than hes been in a long time.
Thome’s been hurt approximately once in his career too, I dont know where youre coming from here.
Cust has a track record of better than average durability.
So even an average MLB player is less likely to stay healthy than Cust. In addition, Jim Thome is 39 and Carlos Delgado is 37, while Cust is 30. So that’s why I say they’re less likely to stay healthy than Cust.
That’s what my thinking is anyway. If someone wants to persuade me otherwise I’m open to it.
No, I’m not asserting that Delgado is done, but yes, I think it’s more likely that Cust will play a full year than Delgado will play a full year.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Thome left the Sox for the Dodgers
and took the PH role because he thought the Dodgers had a chance at the WS. He’s only got a few years left at best to accomplish that, and I doubt he’ll spend any of that time with us where he is virtually assured that he won’t get into the WS.
If I had to guess where he’ll end up… slegnA.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 6, 2009 5:34 PM PST up reply actions
That quote doesn't worry me.
Billy is always evasive when he’s not made a final decision. The decision that has yet to made on Jack, I assume, is whether to trade him now. It sounds like there are discussions going on; thus, Billy is evasive when queried by a reporter.
Trading Cust would not bother me, so long as it was a decent trade, because he’d be collecting on the value of Cust’s contract. What doesn’t make sense to me is just throwing that value in the trash by non-tendering him. We should either keep him, trade him before arbitration, or make a deal through arbitration and then trade him afterward.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Huh?
The decision on whether to nontender him or not has to be made in the next week or so. That’s a known fact— the deadline falls in that period…
Now, personally I think that the decision should take about five minutes, but that aside, clearly it has to be “made within the next week or so.”
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
I think iglew means that with the Winter Meetings starting
perhaps Cust’s status will be determined in part by whether GMs have trade interest in him early this week.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm not sure who your "huh?" is directed at.
We’re in agreement on this, right?
I see no good reason to nontender Cust if he still belongs to Oakland when the deadline comes. But if he’s traded before then (ie, in the next few days) then it’s the other GM’s decision, not Billy’s.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
This is what the "up" button is for
My “huh?” is directed at this:
‘The next week or so’ part definitely implies a nontendering.
which is in no way true. It implies a decision on the issue of nontendering (and indeed, the fact that such a decision needs to be made is not merely implied, but expressly required by MLB rule) but it says nothing about which way the decision will come out.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Ah, my bad.
I blame Nico.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Exactly
What I meant is that the decision was about nontendering rather than trading. If it weren’t for Beane saying that they had a big decision to make and it’s about nontendering Cust, I would not even think the FO was considering it. The quote makes it seem like they are considering it. Which is crazy.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
I took the time to go over there and look
And I find it’s a Carl Steward story. One of those guys whose stories should at best just be skimmed to see if there are any quotes from anyone with a clue in there (and in this case there are some quotes). But as you say, the actual information in the piece does not particularly support its conclusions.
Not as worthless as reading Bruce Jenkins’s or Dave Newhouse’s thoughts on baseball, but still…
yep
Within the first three paragraphs it’s evident that the author doesn’t understand that draft-pick compensation has nothing to do with Cust being non-tendered or not.
It’s amazing that some people get paid $30K+ to write about baseball, yet know less about it than dozens of people who post here for free.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Dec 6, 2009 12:48 PM PST up reply actions
$30K?
If that’s all he’s paid, my first thought is: no wonder.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 6, 2009 12:57 PM PST up reply actions
sportswriters make very low salaries
That was my previous profession. :)
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Dec 6, 2009 1:02 PM PST up reply actions
wow I really thought they made more than the average grocery-store checker
No offense if anyone here works at Safeway/Vons/Ralphs etc :-)
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 6, 2009 1:14 PM PST up reply actions
I agree that the non-tender makes little sense
If there’s no trade market for him at his expected salary, they should still tender him a contract, then trade him and $3-4M of his salary for a legitimate player or two they’re interested in, like Brent Morel (ChiSox) or Callaspo (KC). That would be a productive way to use a few million this offseason and have it benefit their future playoff contenders.
Non-tendering means getting absolutely no value from losing Cust, which I find puzzling.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Dec 6, 2009 12:53 PM PST reply actions
sorry, I don't think I made any sense there
I’m trying to say that they could take on most or all of Cust’s 2010 salary in a trade.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Dec 6, 2009 12:54 PM PST up reply actions
Made more sense than all the talk about non-tendering Cust for payroll reasons
The monster at the end of this blog.
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