Beane Deserves Credit for Trying to Bring Marco Home
by athleticsBB4life on Dec 4, 2009 7:44 PM PST
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PrintScutaro turns down more money from the A's to sign with Boston:
per Rosenthal:
- Scutaro turned down a slightly more lucrative three-year contract from the A's before signing his two-year, $12.5 million deal with the Red Sox, according to major-league sources.
- The A's would have used Scutaro at shortstop and made Cliff Pennington their utility man.
- Clearly, the A's are operating with a measure of financial flexibility.
Beane deserves a lot of credit for trying to bring Scutaro back to Oakland. Scutaro, as we all know, was one of the most popular A's players in recent memory. Unfortunately, and nearly heartbreaking, us fans lose out on the opportunity to see Scutaro back in the Green n' Gold. The attempt by Beane makes sense, after 3B, SS was the most pressing need for this team. Scutaro's price tag was very reasonable. Futhermore, he's an A's type player. He took what he learned in his time with Oakland and became what Beane's brass preaches, unfortunately...it all happened elsewhere. Although disappointed, I'm encouraged by Beane's attempt to bring in someone who is "watchable" and quite frankly, plays at an above average level.
As for Pennington, does this tell us that the A's aren't sold on him as the answer at SS? I think this attempt is quite telling; should we expect to see Orlando Cabrera back in town as Plan B? Maybe the A's try to trade for a young SS?
Hopefully, Beane uses the money he saved, the aforementioned financial flexibility, by not signing Scutaro and brings in a similar type player. However, I don't see another free agent that fits that mold. Anyway...this so called financial flexibility may only be a myth.
As for Scutaro, his decison makes me a bigger fan. I respect a man who turns downs more money in pursuit of competitiveness. I'm sure he knew the A's wouldn't challenge for contention until his would-be contract was up an would have a better chance at a ring in Boston. Wow, don't the A's usually get outbid by teams like Boston? What a role reversal.
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My thoughts exactly.
Though I’m not sure I agree with being a bigger fan of Scutaro for turning down Oakland…
but my gut lurched in a good way when I saw Beane had made the highest offer—it shows that there’s a good chance he knows exactly what he’s doing and everything we hear come out of the A’s front office is just spin.
Still wanted Polanco.
"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau
To clarify, I'm not sure I would have liked a 3 year deal for Scutaro at more than 6 mil per year.
But the idea that Beane would be interested shows that he obviously understands that he needs to upgrade the left side of the infield, and that he isn’t afraid to spend money to do so.
Perhaps he’ll go hard after the last man standing in the 3B/SS sweepstakes. Wait for the price to be set. He’s done that before in the FA pool.
"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau
The last man standing in the SS sweepstakes just signed with Boston
Seriously, look at the other “candidates.” The next two best candidates already played (and were horrible) for Oakland in 2009. But for them, the only other player who looks even capable (forget “likely”) of putting up a 2 WAR season is Miguel Tejada.
Figgins will be the next to go, at which point Adrian Beltre will be the last man standing of any skill at either position (other than I suppose the clutching-at-straws possibility of converting Orlando Hudson to the left side of the infield). And there will still be a zillion teams looking for third base help. Hard to figure that one happening.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
The last man standing will be Bobby Crosby.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
That's "last man lunging."
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
the good thing
The A’s know how to pitch him. No fast balls and outside of the plate.
sunk.cost.
Don’t make one bad decision to try to rationalize a prior past decision.
Mark Ellis: not a bad decision
He had about as bad a season as could have been expected this year and was still worth more than the A’s paid for him.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Damn
That would’ve been exciting at the very least. I would’ve thought Marco would be one player who would actually like to play in Oakland (again). I’m guessing the opportunity to be in the spotlight and on a competitive team means more than money and familiarity to him so while I’m disappointed he turned us down I admire the fact that money isn’t everything for him.
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
Well its not like we started him everyday.
Plus he’s getting old, who wouldn’t want a championship ring.
I don't think players particularly care what they get traded FOR
He got more playing time and a better opportunity in Toronto. Why would he be unhappy about that?
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Yeah, my impression was that he was pleased to get the opportunity to prove himself as a starter
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does
That.....
and a 12M dollar contract would make me very happy.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
More than that, we treated him like he was worse than Crosby.
That wouldn’t piss you off?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 5, 2009 5:46 PM PST up reply actions
That pissed ME off!
….freakin’ Crosby.
Bob Geren, on 8/2/07, on the success of Alan Embree as new interim closer: "What can I say,... he's been our Steady Tremendous Bullpen Man"
He just wants the opportunity to feast on Mariano Rivera.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
If he offered more than what Scutaro got
He doesn’t deserve credit he needs to get his head checked
Chris Carter is the next Hank Aaron right?
by streetisclosedin08 on Dec 4, 2009 6:58 PM PST reply actions
I disagree...Red Sox have the ability to low ball....
they have leverage…
an ad pitch like this: you want competitive ball for 162 games plus the playoffs, play in a city where the fans come out and support you, have teammates you’ve heard of, have a chance for a WS ring every year? Why play little-league in Oakland? Come to Boston, we’re big league!!!
"just a beating heart ... plasma that we'll put into our uniform." - Billy Beane
by athleticsBB4life on Dec 4, 2009 7:31 PM PST up reply actions
"Hey ramblin boy, why don't you settle down?"
Boston ain’t your kinda town.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
It's true
can you really fault a guy for wanting to play for a contender? Good for Scutaro, he deserves his pay day. Good for the A’s, I don’t think Scutaro was the solution for them anyhow!
Would have been nice, I suppose.
Jed Lowrie, anyone?
That rug really tied the room together...
by Streams Of Whiskey on Dec 4, 2009 7:05 PM PST reply actions
Sure, if the A's can make him healthy.
Wait.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 5, 2009 5:47 PM PST up reply actions
That's not how we do things 'round here.
That rug really tied the room together...
by Streams Of Whiskey on Dec 6, 2009 3:42 PM PST up reply actions
OK, we can give credit to Beane for making a run on Scoot
So… who do we blame for the lousy stadium and a team that hasn’t been above .500 in three seasons?
Seems Oakland has fallen to the point of having to significantly out-offer the opposition to land a FA. That’s not good.
The monster at the end of this blog.
right, denied by ...
Furcal and Scutaro in successive off seasons. Time to move to SJ or wherever at this point.
"just a beating heart ... plasma that we'll put into our uniform." - Billy Beane
by athleticsBB4life on Dec 4, 2009 8:10 PM PST up reply actions
I am actually glad they didnt get him....
3 years for what I must assume is 15-18 million? if what they say about A’s offering more is true.
Rather have many other players……….shoot 4 years of Figgins at 40 mil would be better………
by Colorado Booze Hounds on Dec 4, 2009 8:20 PM PST reply actions
It's 2 years and $12.5 with an option.
Not really that much. It’s basically saying he’s going to turn back into the pre-2008 (not pre-2009; everyone knows he’s not THAT good) version of himself.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Im talking about the A's hypothetical offer
If it was 3 years, it had to be well over 12.5 mil, or there would be zero chance a player takes the same amount of $$$, for more years……when its all guaranteed…..
by Colorado Booze Hounds on Dec 4, 2009 8:32 PM PST up reply actions
If he's worth 2 WAR a season, right now, which is actually rather conservative,
and fades by half a win per season, he’d be worth about $18M over three years. Actually a little more but there is a lost draft pick involved, so let’s call that the break-even point.
If the starting point is more like 2.5, as I think, then his true value is more like $25M over three years (and thus a bid of, say, 20 might have gotten a sign while still being a cost-effective contract).
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
See the Fangraphs article on why it's not valid to use their $/WAR numbers this way.
Once a performance is in the past, there is no uncertainty related to it. We know what happened. When a player signs a contract, of course, that performance is not known. Uncertainty adds risk, and risk drives down price, so we would not expect a team to actually pay a salary equal to the value listed on the players page. This is one of the main reasons why the value is not a predictor of what a player will earn in his next contract.
I’d discount it something like 25%-30%/year, resulting in about $3.4M/WAR in the first year. Since you’ve already reduced the WAR in subsequent years, we can use 25%, getting about $2.5M/WAR in the second year and $1.9M/WAR in the third year. I get something like $12M-$13M for three years using that. Now if you think that Scutaro’s worth 2.5 WAR now, then you’d get something like $16M for three years.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 5, 2009 5:58 PM PST up reply actions
No, it IS valid to use the numbers this way
Those $/WAR numbers are derived from WHAT FREE AGENTS ACTUALLY DO. That is the average price paid for a win on the free agent market in that year.
I have no idea what statistical prestidigitation you’re using here, because frankly I don’t understand it, but anything that leads to the conclusion that a free agent win in any future season is worth only $1.9M ipso facto cannot possibly be correct.
The reason why “value” in one year is not a predictor of what a player will get in his next contract is that players are known to regress to the mean, age, and do all those other inconvenient things that mean that one season isn’t a perfect predictor of the next season. If people were paying Marco Scutaro based on his “value” over the last 3 seasons, he’d be looking at a payday of $13M a year or more.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Dec 5, 2009 8:51 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Hm
Should I be ordering the crow sandwich? Or the filet de la corbeau?
I agree with the title. The A’s do deserve credit, and in fairness to myself, I’d have given it to them if they had been reported to have made an offer to Scutaro. I suppose it’s not implausible that they’ve submitted bids on Polanco and Figgins, too; perhaps Beane is just keeping unusually guarded cards this offseason. (The Hardy deal went down so fast that it’s hard to think much of anyone other than the teams involved even knew it was happening.)
Still, several unanswered questions remain:
1. How much more, exactly, would have been needed to “buy” Scutaro to Oakland?
2. Is he still a good value at that price?
3. If so, did the A’s have the opportunity to make the offer?
If the answer to those last two questions is “yes,” then they still missed an opportunity, albeit less of one than it might have otherwise appeared.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
for the sake of the argument
I think if true its a terrible attempt. After how Pennington performed, yes he is young and unproven, but there are many other holes. A bid for Scutaro, and for 3 years to me seems crazy. Unless the A’s are after many players and were just BS’ing about not signing Free Agents………then let the fun begin!
by Colorado Booze Hounds on Dec 4, 2009 8:28 PM PST up reply actions
Uh, if we're going on the basis of fluke seasons
then Marco Scutaro’s fluke season was about five times as good as Pennington’s fluke season…
Pennington isn’t really “unproven.” He’s proven, in the minors, to basically be a guy that you should not feel comfortable giving a starting job to if you’re in any way interested in contending.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
for 13+ mil
Ill take Cliff Pennington’s “fluke” year over Scutaro
by Colorado Booze Hounds on Dec 4, 2009 9:09 PM PST up reply actions
shooooot gimme a full season......and its easy......
Batting G AB H HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP
Cliff Pennington 60 208 58 4 21 19 46 7 5 .279 .342
Marco Scutaro 144 574 162 12 60 90 75 14 5 .282 .379
by Colorado Booze Hounds on Dec 4, 2009 9:18 PM PST up reply actions
You just posted a line which basically says "Scutaro is much better at baseball"
I fail to see how this helps your point.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
uh, not really
Scutaro had 366 more ABs, while you cannot just extrapolate ABs, they arent that far apart…
I would rather go with Pennington and use the 13-15mil elsewhere………..
by Colorado Booze Hounds on Dec 5, 2009 1:42 PM PST up reply actions
So how about we look at rate stats?
Scutaro .282/.379/.409/.789 .354 wOBA
Pennington .279/.342/.418/.760 .332 wOBA
Scutaro is better in every stat but SLG. And he did it in more PAs, and without a .342 BABIP or career high HR/FB%. Simply put, both Scoot and Pennington outperformed their projections. Scoot did it over a way larger sample and by improving things other than two stats based significantly on luck. Pennington did it by putting up career highs on stats that are significantly correlated to luck.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Pennington is 25. Scutaro is 33. I'd say Scutaro is more likely to decline, and quickly.
Granted, I’m admittedly very down on Scutaro, and I think he just had his “Career Year” and parlayed that into a $12M payday.
Maybe it’s just me, but I’m not at all convinced he’ll be worth 6 WAR over the next 3 seasons, and yes, this is a case of me choosing to ignore what the stats tell me. I expect some serious regression from him, and he’s also at the age where he will probably start getting worse on defense, and he’s never been that great of a SS defensively anyway.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I agree...
And I go back to the money. With Oaklands budget I use the money elsewhere…..I would love to see 10mil a year (take Scutaro and Cust $) used for a major upgrade in an LF / RF / 1B / SP and then mix in Carter, Wallace, Bucks, Fox, etc etc. as soon as they are ready…….
And I really like Scutaro…..
by Colorado Booze Hounds on Dec 5, 2009 3:20 PM PST up reply actions
I'm actually with you
I don’t really like Scutaro for 6 million a year.
I just really, really dislike Pennington as a starting SS for any amount of money.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
All we are saying... is give Cliff a chance...
if he fails, throw him off of it…
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 7, 2009 12:09 PM PST up reply actions
Scutaro's older, but Pennington has the worse injury history
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 5, 2009 6:00 PM PST up reply actions
eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation
Pennington had injuries that murky up his minor league stats. Beane has stated he has been asked to deal Pennington by many other clubs. I remain committed he is a strong defensive 7-9th of the order SS that is very valuable at league minimum rates. I was impressed with his defense last year (good range, strong arm), in no way do I view his potential as a fluke.
Where are these supposed statements about Pennington's trade values?
Because I’m a pretty focused fan and I’ve never seen them.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
I too would like to know where Beane stated
he has been asked for Pennington in trade. I would have expected such a statement to get some discussion here on AN and I can’t recall ever hearing a thing about it.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
The day Holiday was traded
BB had an exclusive interview with Greg Pappa on his CSN sports show Chronicle live: Beane stated the team was going young. He specifically mentioned Pennington was getting an extended look at SS for the rest of the year, and that Pennington had specifically been requested by other G/M’s during his trade talk.
Anyone out there know how to dig up the CSN transcript?
I could see...
…where other GMs may have asked for Pennington, but if Beane was steadfastly against it I would also say that he was still never a serious piece of any trade talk, hence why we would have never heard about it. I’m sure half the names on a team get bandied about as “feelers” in conversation at some time or another, but we only hear about stuff that might actually have a chance of happening because they get discussed more.
Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you. ~Reggie Jackson
I need to find the transcript
The statement was along the lines of “Pennington is a guy that other teams have expressed a lot of trade interest in”. It was also a few days after BoCro made an embarrassing statement to the press about his prowess at SS, and how the team was holding him back. It is quite possible this quip was made in response to Crosby.
Maybe Big-Mac can teach Pennington to hit this off-season.
Two random thoughts...
1.
…BoCro made an embarrassing statement to the press about his prowess at SS, and how the team was holding him back.
I wish they would have held him back… literally… from swinging at all those low outside pitches.
2.
Maybe Big-Mac can teach Pennington to hit this off-season.
Only if we trade Pennington to the Cardinals.
Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you. ~Reggie Jackson
Pennington put up very nice numbers in 2008…he’s consistently had a BB/K ratio approaching or exceeding 1 in the minors, but last year in the majors put up 19/46. Based on his track record (career minor league 247/250 BB/K ratio), last year’s BB/K ratio was an outlier. I’d expect that ratio to be much closer to 1 next season, which would likely raise Pennington’s OBP, and in turn his other rate stats. Obviously the argument could be made that Pennington’s SLG was much higher than previous years’, but I’d argue that if Pennington can put up his career minor league averages in the majors (.263/.362/.358/.720) he’d be a valuable player for us. Perhaps not as valuable as Scutaro THIS year, but likely just as valuable over the next three years, which Scutaro’s contract would’ve covered. Pennington’s major league rate stats in 307 big league AB are .267/.341/.378/.719, so I don’t think it’s so far-fetched for Pennington to put up what he did in the minors, which, while unspectacular, are not horribly different from Chone Figgins’ career stats (though Figgins’ career AVG is much higher). Anyway, my point is that I’m not upset that we missed out on Scutaro, and I’m not upset that Cliff Pennington is likely going to be the shortstop opening day. At least he’s not Bobby Crosby.
"She's kinda got cankles, our kids are gonna have to play soccer." ~ Mrs. "Disco" Hayes
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 8, 2009 6:25 PM PST up reply actions
The issue isn't your questions #2 and #3. It's your #1.
Maybe there is no “exactly how much” here. If Scutaro was happy with Boston’s offer, probably he just wanted to go to Boston. By taking the lower offer, Scutaro was making the statement that it wasn’t about the money. Your crow sandwich didn’t do the trick, because even faced with strong evidence to the contrary you still won’t let go of the idea that it’s possible to sign anyone if only you offer the right price.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
It's not strong evidence to the contrary though
It’s weak evidence to the contrary.
We know (courtesy of this example, and no doubt some others) that under certain circumstances, some players will take slightly worse offers to go to teams that they prefer for non-monetary reasons.
But it’s a hell of a long way from that to “there is no price at which someone’s non-monetary preferences could be overridden.”
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
You're missing my point.
Of course price matters. And of course non-monetary factors matter.
You eagerly refute the alleged argument that “there is no price at which someone’s non-monetary preferences could be overridden” (which isn’t what I’m saying). But you could just as easily refute the notion that “there is no conditions which would override someone’s monetary preference”. A free agents decision is made from a lot of factors, and all of them come into play.
The point I’m making is that you persist in seeing price as the scale on which all decisions are measured, and everything else is just an adjustment to that price. Well sure, mathematically that’s the same thing, but you’re centralizing something that isn’t necessarily central.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Price is a convenient benchmark
in much the same way that runs above average is a convenient benchmark for measuring player performance. If you do not have a consistent benchmark to measure things against, metrics become highly suspect.
If we could accurately measure “utils” in such a way that we know how much enjoyment Marco Scutaro gets out of money, and playing in Boston, and getting a contract of the length he received, and etc etc etc, then I would have no problem using that as the benchmark. But, as is usually the case in economic analyses, since we can’t measure subjective happiness, we have to use some kind of monetary value measure plus adjustments up or down.
So: what’s your alternative to price for “the scale on which all decisions are measured”?
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Well, as you've probably noticed, I'm not real keen
on any sort of universal benchmark adopted for the sake of making analysis simpler. I will concede that if one is determined to reduce all contract decisions to a single benchmark with every other factor measured as an adjustment to it, then there is no choice that is better than money. I would just warn that whenever you adopt a benchmark like that for your model, it will tend to shape your thinking on the subject to overemphasize that factor.
And yes, I do indeed have the same complaint about all the other economic analyses you allude to.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
I mean, I get the argument
It’s basically what debaters (I’m sure DFA will chime in at this point) refer to as a kritik— essentially, arguing that a certain mindset leads one down an analytical path with certain negative outcomes as a consequence.
But one of the acknowledged “building blocks” of a kritik is an alternative. Kritiks with lame alternatives, like “think about foreign policy in a feminist way instead of a patriarchal way”, don’t get that much traction, because no one really knows what “thinking about it in a feminist way” actually means or how one would go about doing so.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
I thought I made my alternative clear
but you don’t like it. If that means I have no “traction” among debaters, well, OK. That’s nothing new.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
If you outlined an alternative, I certainly didn't spot it...
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
The alternative generally
is to acknowledge the limitations of our models.
In this case specifically, it is (jumping upthread to the leftmost comment that spawned this) to consider that the question, “How much more, exactly, would have been needed to ‘buy’ Scutaro to Oakland?” may have no meaningful answer.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
I'm sorry, I find that flatly implausible
If it is literally the case that Scutaro would under no circumstances ever consider signing for Oakland, why is his agent fielding calls from Beane?
You yourself observed, somewhere around here, that his agent is not going to waste time taking calls if there’s nothing they’ll lead to.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
no meaningful answer is not
the same as saying the answer is infinity.
But yeah, we’ve both already acknowledged that we don’t agree on this, so I don’t think there’s any further to go.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
no meaningful answer
is basically “nothing worth spending time trying to quantify.” For all we know, he thinks the massage therapist he uses in Boston is hot and that’s why he picked Boston over us. Even if it was that, what sort of adjustment to monetary value would we add to Beane’s offer to counteract Scutaro’s preference for attractive massage therapists?
Again, not quantifiable
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 6, 2009 10:45 AM PST up reply actions
There is ample evidence that Giambi never had any intention of re-signing with the A's back in '02...
…yet he and his agent spent considerable time talking with Beane… to get a better deal from the Yankees.
The “poker face” aspect of contract negotiations clearly explains why an agent would field calls from teams they have no intention of signing with. To consider otherwise is simply naive.
Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you. ~Reggie Jackson
OK, fair enough
Still seems implausible though.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
I would just like to suggest that even if we have limited models
they approximate fairly accurately how people act. The beauty of using a price based model for utility is that money is fungible and thus utils from a wide array of sources be converted so that, whether it is the amount of happiness someone receives when buying something or the amount that is sacrificed to acquire non-pecuniary types of happiness. The problem with your no model model is it makes discussing motivations completely meaningless as is only valuable at the margins (eg. I will never play for Boston because it is a racist town – Barry Bonds) and is wholly useless in the vast majority of cases where the fungibility of money allows it to be a good measure for utils
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 6, 2009 12:23 PM PST up reply actions
Just to be clear,
I’m not advocating banishing all models because they are imperfect. I just feel that as we do model things we need to remain more aware of their weaknesses. My sense — especially in armchair baseball analyses, but to some extent in almost all sciences — there is insufficient attention to this.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Sorry, but I agree with PT
If the A’s offered Scutaro $20 mil a year, he’d have said “sorry Boston, but I can’t pass that up”. No question. The question PT was asking was, what is the lowest number between that $20 mil and what the A’s offered Scutaro that he would’ve been willing to pass up the Red Sox’s offer? It exists, even if it is absurdly large. It could be $20 mil. It could be $100 mil. We’ll never know.
"She's kinda got cankles, our kids are gonna have to play soccer." ~ Mrs. "Disco" Hayes
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 8, 2009 6:28 PM PST up reply actions
Once again,
No meaningful answer is not the same as saying the answer is infinity.
There exists a price at which you would eat a fresh dog-poop, too. Just because a price exists does not mean it is meaningful to establish that price in order to determine what kind of a poop-eater you are.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
YaY Kritiques are sooooo much fun.
but as a general rule have to have an alternative.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 6, 2009 11:32 AM PST up reply actions
Well, plenty of K's get run successfully
with precisely the type of alternative paul says doesn’t work. Specific intellectualism etc. etc.
The basic argument is that we should point out and flag flawed models when we see them, since passive acceptance guarantees we can’t even imagine alternatives.
True, but I mean, a good debater can win rounds
with something as preposterous as “this plan will cause economic decline, which somehow six gargantual logical leaps later produces a nuclear war.”
Sometimes it’s more about who’s arguing than what the argument is.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
[insert predictable iglew rant here]
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Meh the economic collapse -> nuke war is far from the worst debate logical stretch Ive heard/perpetuated
and yes good debaters win with bad arguments. It happens all the time in debate like it does in real life.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 7, 2009 9:05 PM PST up reply actions
being "one of the most popular A's players in recent memory"
Is like being the best beer you had in recent memory….its beer, its not that big a deal there will be more, and there will be better…
Trying to have Scooter here for his age 36 season is just another notch in Beane’s horrific FA signing history. Why cant Billy get it right? He does literally everything else perfectly but as it stands not one of his 3+ year FA signings has been worth it.
I love all beers as if they were my first love
ach, who am I kidding. Carling Special Brew, come back to me!
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does
Are you originally Canadian or British?
or from Buffalo or something?
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 7, 2009 12:12 PM PST up reply actions
Seriously
I can think of a great many beer I’d rather come back to me than anything Carling has produced.
we in the losin baseball binness. and cousin, binness is a boomin.
by walk off bunt on Dec 7, 2009 9:59 PM PST up reply actions
I met Scutaro once...
in a bar in Walnut Creek on the exact same day/night the A’s were celebrating their sweep of the Twins in the ‘06 ALDS and when he had that double down the right field line and the Spiderman pose at 2nd base. He was a VERY chill fellow…sat in a chair the whole night with his wife (slash) G/F and laughed at me as i took shots with Dan Johnson and Swisher that they paid for…what a great night…anyways, that doesn’t really add anything to this conversation.
Nice to see that Beane doesn’t really think Pennington is an acceptable answer at short, however, I really just don’t know what to make of these rumors. I’m afraid that I may in danger of falling into the “conspiracy theory” camp of AN, where information leaks out that Oakland offers more money for key free agents, only to see these FA’s choose teams with better venues and less money…I would hate for this to be the case, and my best logic indicates that this is not the case, but I’m just afraid that these tidbits of information may just be all part of current A’s ownership plan to reinforce the fact to MLB owners and the BRC that the A’s simply can’t be competitive financially with their “dilipidated” venue.
Of course, it could also just be coincidence. Hey, the A’s have needed a dependable, unawful shorstop for years now, and it makes perfect sense that the GM would make competitive offers for the best FA’s at the position for two years running…
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
No, I think you're onto something and it's not just a coincidence.
There’s been a relentless negative PR campaign going on ever since Fisher/Wolff bought the team; it started slowly and they’ve cleverly upped the angst each year. One valid question re: your conspiracy theory is this: who benefits from word leaking to the press and then ultimately the fans that the A’s made an offer to Scutaro but were rebuffed, and for less money? Who benefits from situations like the Furcal fiasco last year, where the A’s appear to be an unwanted suitor (and go to lengths to portray themselves as such?)
I don’t get out to as many games as I used to anymore, which is largely a function of geography- but each time I go to the Coliseum these days I look around and think “huh- this isn’t bad at all! What the heck is all the fuss about?” It’s easy to buy into a gradually induced perception that a situation is untenable and dramatically bad, like the A’s ownership would have us believe, and I fully believe that they’ve done their best to develop and reinforce this perception.
I think this is just another stage in the PR campaign- “look, now we’re even offering more money to players but we can’t sign them because our stadium is no good! We’ll never compete like this!” I think trading away players whose contracts were perfectly affordable was just another piece of this puzzle- Swisher and Haren most readily come to mind. “Look, we can’t keep our established players because we can’t afford them!”
It’s just a self-fulfilling prophecy and relentless PR campaign designed to achieve Fisher and Wolff’s one true goal for the franchise- to get a new stadium and then sell the team with its increased value and all its debt to some starry-eyed punter or consortium thereof.
by still bills kingdom on Dec 4, 2009 10:48 PM PST up reply actions
The rebuilding trades had nothing to do with unaffordability
And, indeed, the A’s said so at the time— it’s not like they were crying poor as some kind of smokescreen. They said at the time that it was about increasing the overall talent level of the system. And, wonder of wonders, the result is that they’ve increased the overall talent level of the system.
It is generally correct in MLB for teams NOT to “keep established players,” as a matter of strategy. There are, of course, exceptions to this. But by and large? It’s a sucker’s move.
So that’s basically ridiculous. As far as the “conspiracy theory” goes, well, if you’re saying “The A’s leaked an unsuccessful offer they made because doing so makes it look like their stadium is non-competitive,” fine, sure— I can see that. If you’re saying “the A’s leaked an offer they didn’t make to pretend that their stadium is non-competitive,” then I say you’re full of shit. It would require far too many people playing along for that kind of behavior to slide by (much less two years in a row) and exposure of it would instantly destroy the entire credibility of Beane and the A’s. It wouldn’t be worth the risk.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Former, not the latter, on the offer leak- where did I imply that the A's had
fabricated any supposed offers that were then leaked? Of course that would be a stupid thing to do.
But they can certainly make offers that are technically worth more in overall contract value but actually worth less per year to the player (by offering more years at a lower per-year value) and then legitimately claim that they’ve “offered more money and been rejected.” From there, it’s child’s play to attribute the rejection to whatever cause they wish to name that suits their fancy.
As for the trading of established players because they’re too expensive to keep, this has been a consistent A’s company line that forms the backdrop for either trading established players or not re-signing them when they become free agents. You’re certainly correct that ownership/management attributed some specific moves I mentioned to the need to “rebuild” but they also explained that at the time as a need to get both “younger and cheaper” so clearly they’re intent on keeping the financial aspect clearly in the consciousness of the fan base. And the whole impetus for rebuilding the farm system to ultimately rebuild the major league team stems from… the inability of the team to sign free agents at market prices to rebuild at the major league level, right?
The credibility of Beane and the A’s ownership and front office generally doesn’t need any further destroying- they’re already looking foolish for saying “we can’t afford to field a better major league team until our prospects develop” while passing on trade and free agent options they could most certainly afford and then making trades where they end up with a utility infielder who will cost more than they didn’t want to pay Scutaro a couple years ago. Oh, and saying they couldn’t afford to engage in much or any free agent signing and then supposedly trying to get Scutaro with a “slightly more” valuable (in total value of guaranteed money, presumably) free agent contract. Add to this the quixotic, at best, strategy of rebuilding by trading 3 young players for a much more expensive and short-term rental in Holliday last offseason, and then throwing 3 more young, cheap players on a plane to San Diego for Hairston this past season, and things don’t seem to be adding up. That’s to say nothing of the bizarre Giambi and Garciaparra signings last year. Wonder what other amazing rebuilding moves they have planned for the rest of this offseason…
by still bills kingdom on Dec 5, 2009 2:04 PM PST up reply actions
I mean, you can basically phrase all of this in neutral tones and it's a bunch of totally unremarkable baseball decisions
About 90% of this is sinister verbiage which has no relationship to reality.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Dec 5, 2009 5:37 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I see where you're going with this...
and honestly I’ve conciosly tried to distance from this type of thought process. It’s just that i think it’s worth bringing up: Overall, I do think it’s a topic worth discussing: has Beane’s transition from “middle manager of baseball operations who is working with a set budget from his superiors” to, “holder of a definitive stake in the ownership in the organization” has had an effect on the front office’s strategy of player acquisition and information-sharing with the media?
I personally don’t know. I’d like to think that his competitiveness will win own over corporate PR and spin strategies…but it’s a bit muddled, especially after he publically acknowledged last off-season that the venue was having an effect on his efforts of attracting FA talent.
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
as with any conspiracy theory
The means, motive and opportunity aren’t enough; it’s almost always down to the central question of “Who benefits?” IMO so-called conspiracies get a bad rap because you could make a case that people with common interests often act in concert both real and imagined, simply as a function of advancing what happen to be their common interests in any given situation. This often leads to people with a firm grasp on the extensive backgrounds and players around any contested or controversial issues or events being labeled dismissively as “conspiracy theorists” when indeed they have done the laborious work to at least have earned the label of Conspiracy Historians.
In this case, I don’t think they are leaking the $ details behind this Scutaro snub to self-illustrate the futility of A’s-in-the-Oakland-Coliseum per se…. really I think the long and the short of this is that Marco didn’t turn BB down this time because this little picture of how the home clubhouse weight training equipment sucks at the Coliseum popped into his head at the prospect of BB’s offer. I think Marco went to the Sox because he’s older now and will likely not get another lucrative starting offer from any team, contending or otherwise, after this one because he’ll be almost 40, which is like 116 in middle infielder years. Any leak such as it is is just a natural result of a player who was successful with a given team not opting to go back to that team and how that makes the media and fans go looking for the reasons why and the details of the snubbery, so the Great Schadenfraude Machine we call Civilization can be maintained apace.
That said, I think the overarching supposition that this ownership has essentially worked its best to create the natural conditions for the Coliseum to look its worst, with the obvious goal being the establishment of bleak enough circumstances to illustrate why indeed the only way for the A’s to prosper or even survive is to move them, bears thoughtful examination if the weight of the argument hangs on whether powerful people work to create the conditions for what they perceive to be their maximum eventual benefit in situations. Because I think that all of us, powerful or otherwise, do that…. it’s called competition and its the ongoing basis for a great deal of our collective social paradigm as a species, whether we like or acknowledge it or not (I personally don’t on the like part and have to swallow hard on the acknowledge part, but that’s just me).
It’s hard not to look at the totality of the way this ownership has allowed the team and the brand to sort of slip into mediocre second-rate Little Leagueness and wonder aloud, WTF is going on here? Did they get a radio station with no signal so no one will listen? Did they really run ads saying “The A’s Are Missing” to promote their product as it is, in its current city and (admittedly substandard but still a helluva fun place to go enjoy the game) venue? There’s so much about it that’s redolent (to me and others) of the sort of classic, “create the problem, provoke the reaction, provide the solution that was intended all along and which makes you millions of dollars” laissez-faire conspiracy-of-entropy, where the goal is to not set it up per se (because human events and situations can never be entirely “set up” to run to any single participant’s exact wishes and specifications), but to make it all appear as having run on the tracks of the inevitable “natural causes” you need to make yourself appear the heroic team-saver, whisking the failing franchise away to its new paradise ballpark in your hometown south of here, and not the venal team-stealer that only bought it in the first place to divert it all for your own selfish ends, sacredness of a (heretofore vital, trendsetting and successful) team’s bond with its (flawed, like any city — as a function of where masses of humanity meet socioeconomic realities often not suited to sustain masses of humanity, what city isn’t flawed?) home city of the last 4 decades be damned.
It seems again, to further the questions that any free people must ask, that we as fans are staring down what’s shaping up to be yet another substandard and uncompetitive season, thoroughly unworthy of the dignity and the history behind the brand. Of course it’s only December and there’s a lot of stoving yet to be heated, but somehow these Jake “Glove of Stone” Fox and Aaron “Worse At Baseball Than 300 Pound Drummer Buddy” Miles moves don’t seem designed to make people go “Oh my, how can I NOT buy all the Athletics Season Tickets I can purchase, for whatever price this thoroughly stacked and powerhouse team will deign to allow me to pay?” Really, they don’t even seem designed to make people even take notice that there IS a team in Oakland anymore: it kinda does seem like a way to barometrically test and negatively illustrate the health of the franchise, only our canaries are at third base because their is no coalmine anymore. Not one we can see, anyway.
I ain’t nobody but in 43 years I have come to understand from a purely personal perspective that an important lesson in life to learn and know is that it’s the mordantly self-fulfilling prophecies that come true the easiest. I don’t want to believe it but that alone doesn’t make it inobvious in a lot of important and arguable ways that this ownership had an outcome in mind when they showed up and to the extent that circumstances are generated that support this preperceived outcome, I think they are fine with them, even if it means short-term denigration of their alleged product.
Oh yeah, and the putative (mocking quotes mine) “Commissioner,” himself arguably if not demonstrably the very worst in the 100+ year history of MLB? Sorry, but he’s in on it… the social framework of his and Wolff’s relationship since they were in college can’t really lead anywhere under these circumstances except to where old rich buddies want their other old rich buddies to make even more dosh than their old rich buddies already have made, because that is how the Old Rich Buddy System has been operating since there’s been lucre to lust for, I’m afraid.
Hey, I just bought the team from Lew Wolff... who wants to play third?
by emperor nobody on Dec 5, 2009 1:48 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
why did I write such an airbag post?
I could have just said that with the A’s (and a lot of things where large amounts of $ come into play), it can get hard to distinguish where the “business plan” ends and the “conspiracy” begins, or if there’s really even a meaningful difference LOL
Hey, I just bought the team from Lew Wolff... who wants to play third?
by emperor nobody on Dec 5, 2009 3:01 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Don't sell it short....
it was mournful and tinged with regrets.
You and I have shared the same glass I’m afraid.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
I hope neither of you gives the other one mononucleosis.
That happens when you share a glass, you know.
by LoneStranger on Dec 7, 2009 10:21 AM PST up reply actions
it doesn't matter... they were already kissing...
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 7, 2009 12:13 PM PST up reply actions
I have that!
Yay!!!!!!
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
Reminiscent of Donald Sutherland (X) talking with Kevin Costner (Garrison)
As with any conspiracy theory the means, motive and opportunity aren’t enough; it’s almost always down to the central question of "Who benefits?"
Seriously, though, where’s the conspiracy? It’s no secret that the Athletics want to change venues. It’s no secret that there are obstacles to changing the venue. And, it’s not really a conspiracy to wish to influence fan opinion as well as the opinion of those who can remove the obstacles to changing the venue. There is an ownership strategy going on here that is intent on doing what it thinks is in the long term best interests of the orginazation. What’s that strategy? It should be to increase the owners wealth and their own interests. Hopefully we, as fans of this team, can benefit from those interests — the ownership’s strategy through the invisible hand.
So, what is the ownership strategy in the long term, after presumably changing its venue?
- is it to do as it currently does; using the team’s rights to a player’s production and do things on the cheap…fielding teams with cost-effective players, hoping to make the playoffs, win, draw some fans, and make money through the draw [especially if playoffs emerge] and revenue sharing
- is it to grow the value of the organization through appreciation [if this is really happening over the long term] and then sell when the price is right…when the return on investment [the investment in this team] going forward seems less lucrative than another alternative investment
- is there something else? Are multiple strategies being tried? Will a move allow more for strategy number two, as a new venue hopefully brings more revenue which brings more opportunity to pursue playersregardless of their cost which, in theory, spurs on more wins and more revenue, more payroll flexibility AND more appeciation of asset value of the organization?
The Athletics’ owners would be stupid not to throw a little propoganda out there for people to think about. It’s badly needed. And owners are not running this team as a charity so why should we expect their motives to be altruistic [or solely for the fans’ benefit]? If this is a ‘conspiracy’ I like it as a business move and hope that we fans will benefit as a by-product even though the intention was just self-interested behavior by the owers.
by LowcountryJoe on Dec 5, 2009 1:34 PM PST up reply actions
On the Moneypenny bit
Going after the best FA SS isn’t necessarily a slap in the face to Pennington, it’s saying that the price for Scoots was more reasonable than the A’s might have originally expected (I’ve seen a few different comments on various blogs that suggest folks were expecting Scutaro to attract larger offers… but apparently not) and Beane thought he might be able to swing a cost-effective deal for a player with a relatively good history in Oakland. My read is Pennington is good enough to start for the A’s if the other option is to over-spend to bring in another SS. You start talking about a better player available at a more-then-affordable price than no one on a sub-500 team has a secure starting job.
As for your leak theory, there are several different potential sources for the info on the A’s bid to leak out. If I were Beane, I’d trust the feeding frenzy to leak the info (to support the premise you suppose) without doing anything to encourage or push it along. There’s no need to dirty his hands and risk tainting the naturally occurring pro-new-venue spin.
The monster at the end of this blog.
agreed
Pennington is currently one of the top 30 shortstops in baseball. He’s in the bottom 10 of that group, but it still means he’s a starting shortstop.
It’s no slap in the face to him for the team to pursue a guy who’s higher than him on that top-30 list. It would be a slap in the face to pursue someone lower, however.
I feel that in 2010, 25/26 year old Cliff Pennington will be a better shortstop than 35 year-old Orlando Cabrera. So if it leaks that the A’s are pursuing O-Cab to push Penny into a utility role, then yes, Penny, it’s time to feel insulted.
But Scutaro was clearly a different example because he was unquestionably the best shortstop available on the market and a better player than Pennington.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Dec 5, 2009 8:29 AM PST up reply actions
We can always go for Orlando if pennington blows the first half and were somehow not in last place.
His 2nd half was pretty impressive, not sure if he has a track record of slow starts.
The leak
My best guess is it is not coming from Oakland or Beane but coming from the redsox. Why because the sox after putting out that whine on revenue sharing is saying we are not the ones driving up the price of players. They are also trying to convince their fans look Scuttaro wants to play here. I doubt the contract was that much higher than redsox but how many times does a report that another team out bid but lost a FA comes out for a player that signs a small contract.
agree with that
It serves Boston’s purposes, not the A’s.the way it’s worded, it’s entirely possible that the average over 3 years was considerably less than what Boston offered over two (the Furcal situation was also complicated by number of years). Also, I can’t remember when Rosenthal got a scoop from Beane.
by vk on Dec 5, 2009 8:43 AM PST up reply actions
If it were from Beane it'd be written by Gammons.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
not gammons
He was hoping for Crosby his 2008 MVP pick to sign LOL
Yeah, I noticed that too
It’s possible the A’s offer was actually objectively worse than Boston’s in a way that had nothing to do with the respective venues, atmospheres, etc etc.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Also, even Rosenthal's blurb refers to the A's offering "slightly more"
The A’s offer could have been more, but virtually the same — not enough difference to overcome a factor like “we WILL be World Series possibilities every year you’re with us.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Looking at Scutaro's view
The Red sox have a chance to be in the playoffs while the A’s are not. for a older player that is a big factor. Also Scutaro doesn’t trust Beane into trading him mid-season for prospects while in Boston not achance of that. Scutaro’s Boston contract has a 3rd year option that can be kicked in so the value is higher than the 12.5 reported.
There's no reason why a veteran would not trust Beane not to trade him midseason for prospects (without his consent)
I don’t recall that ever having happened before. Vets on the A’s always have implicit “unless something really bizarre happens” no-trade clauses.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
IIRC, Beane made such a similar promise to Piazza and kept his word.
I want to say there’s another similar example where Beane kept his word also, but I cannot think of it off the top of my head.
Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you. ~Reggie Jackson
Yeah, but he also kept him in AAA on a “rehab” assignment for a month. Piazzas agent almost filed a grivence. I bet he would have rather been traded.
He didn't have any offers on the table to trade him...
He’s always been willing to move veterans if they were open to leaving (Springer, Witasick, etc.)
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
It was rumored at the time...
…that the Twins were interested and Beane didn’t do the trade because Piazza didn’t want to go to Minnesota.
Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you. ~Reggie Jackson
Right
Well obviously trading someone somewhere they want to be even LESS would just make things worse.
As I recall he was trying to work something out with the Angels to send Piazza back to LA, but they were unable to agree on a deal.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
I recall that as well.
Personally, I’m not quite sure why Minnesota would have been so bad, but it was Piazza’s opinion and career, not mine.
Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you. ~Reggie Jackson
He wanted to stay on the west coast, I think?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Beane is a trader
Unlike other GMs he likes to trade look at the Haren or swisher traded after signing long term deals way before they expire. I do think the main factor for Scutaro not signing with the A’s is the amount was not much different. If it was 3 million more he would have signed with the A’s but if were talking a 1/2 million more a season its better to sign with a contender.
Haren and Swisher were traded BEFORE THEY BECAME FREE AGENTS
They signed long-term deals to trade a slight decrease in the odds of a huge payoff for greater certainty of financial security. Those deals had absolutely nothing to do with staying in Oakland.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Seems like these two objections contradict each other.
You’re saying (1) Scutaro wants a chance to be in the playoffs, and (2) Scutaro is afraid Beane would trade him mid-season.
Well, if Beane does trade him mid-season, it’s probably going to be to a contending team, isn’t it?
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Think
Scutaro signs a 3 year deal with the A’s buy a house ready to settle in then bam traded to another team and needs to move his family. Its better to be on a team that is playoff ready and where you will most likely stay for the 2 years with a third year option. Which do you think is better? get it now.
So what you're saying is
if he acts in completely unjustifiable reliance on a promise which was not made to not trade him, and then ends up suffering a negative consequence as a result of that, he should have a beef.
Even someone who’s as big a fan of promissory estoppel as I am is not going to support the notion when no one even made a promise to begin with.
And track record shows that if Beane DOES make a promise not to move a guy without vetting the move with him first, he keeps those promises.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
you should join my facebook fan page for promissory estopple. I want to get more members than res ipsa locitor by christmas.
promissory estopple?
Is that more like scrapple or gazpacho?
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 7, 2009 12:15 PM PST up reply actions
No not even
Beane would never promise not trading someone he has always been honest about trades. What I mean is that Scutaro wants to be stable in one place not go to Oakland just to be traded the next year. With Boston he would most likely not to worry about being traded. That being said do you think the A’s going after Scutaro was because they were going to trade Pennington to KC for their 2b. When Scutaro decided on Red sox the A’s pulled Pennigton out of a KC trade. KC is in bad need a SS.
Beane has absolutely promised players that he will not trade them without their approval
I grant you that he doesn’t like to hand out explicit no-trade clauses, but there’s a fairly explicit “break only in case of emergency” proviso to his deals with veterans. (And getting a “good offer” would not count as an emergency— I’m talking about some kind of team fiscal crisis here.)
Scutaro and his agent know this. If talks progressed to the point of discussing years, then we can rest assured that Beane discussed how Scutaro would be used and what kind of consultation he’d be entitled to on any trade proposals. Based on what Beane has done in previous cases, that consultation was likely to be extensive and very nearly amounting to a no-trade clause.
If Beane expected to flip Scutaro next offseason, I’m sure he’d have said that… but I can’t see any reason why the A’s would be expecting that.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
This is just me...
…but I’m sure this factors in for some players as well. There’s a difference between knowing you might get traded mid-season, and legitimately fearing you probably will get traded if plans don’t work out. Stability means something to many players, also. Not everybody likes to fly by the seat of their pants.
Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you. ~Reggie Jackson
Scutaro was not a very good hitter in the Coliseum
And he is 34. I can’t blame scutaro for signing witht he Red Sox. Any competent hitter is transformed into a very good hitter in Fenway. He’ll have great line up protection. And the Red Sox do whatever it takes to compete for a world series. I’d rather have Pennington show us what he can do, and possible throw Cardenas in the mix. It seems that everyone has forgotten about Cardenas.
That would be because
Cardenas is neither a SS nor major league ready.
Surprisingly, though, I agree with you. If, by midseason, Cardenas IS ready, I would love to see him get some playing time at SS.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
It seems that everyone has forgotten aboutCardenasGrant Green.
"She's kinda got cankles, our kids are gonna have to play soccer." ~ Mrs. "Disco" Hayes
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 8, 2009 6:33 PM PST up reply actions
Scutaro's versatility
This likely also attracted A’s to potentially signing him. With Ellis a FA after 2010, who is no bargainat $6.5mill either. Scutaro could shift back there later on to buy more time for cardenas or weeks. Hopefully during that time pennington, petit, horton or someone else is ready at SS. Scutaro would improve SS for 2010, then either stay there or shift over again 2b. So essentially A’s couldve protected those positions, though 3 years seemed a bit much.
Looking at some of the possible tejada interested teams from a week ago: Cardinals, Astros, Giants, Phillies, and Rangers. Phillies are out w/ polanco. Angels might be a spot if they want a veteran to compliment Wood. If A’s were willing tejada might be the most affordable and realistic IF FA option. Unless beltre, derosa asking price is lowered. Glaus and Crede too injury prone. Feliz not much of an upgrade. Any others?
It's also worth noting that prior to 2009,
Scutaro was considered pretty stretched at SS, and at his age it’s unlikely he’ll be a good defensive SS going forward — “adequate” would seem like his upside. I always liked Scutaro a lot at 2B but I wouldn’t be surprised if Jed Lowrie was the better overall SS going forward. Maybe necessity is the mother of invention and it works out well for the A’s in the end.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'd actually much rather have Lowrie in Oakland than Scutaro right now
I just don’t like the idea of sending anything of value to Boston to get him.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Dec 5, 2009 11:06 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Lowrie's value isn't all that high right now
I think in order to get a “recently-very-highly regarded young SS,” the A’s have to be willing to give something up if the opportunity is there — and what they have to give up could turn out to be pleasingly little.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I know
I just hate giving anything to Boston. Ever.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Here's a fun exercise
Name 3-4 trades that might be equitable to bring Lowrie to Oakland and let’s see which ones would be worth it and which ones would be “I wouldn’t want us to do that”…
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I honestly have no idea.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I'd make that trade!
Who could I see the Red Sox being interested in? Cunningham? Desme? Doolittle? Simmons? Capra? Donaldson?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'd make a Donaldson for Lowrie deal.
Probably Doolittle also, if only to see the Doolittle lovers on AN freak out because their guy is gone.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Given Boston's catching situation,
which is very unstable after 2010, Donaldson looks like the logical centerpiece. No need to rush him this season, but he can potentially get the job in 2011 if he continues to show well.
Then the question becomes whether anything else needs to be added. Given Lowrie’s health status, the answer might be “no.” But I wouldn’t balk at throwing in someone like Rodriguez.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
It sounds like the kind of deal
that could quietly help both teams.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Donaldson/Rodriguez for Lowrie
I’d probably do it.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I'd do it too
There’s no such thing as a free lunch, and Lowrie is still a good SS prospect. The A’s can do without Donaldson and Rodriguez a lot more than they can do without someone of Lowrie’s pedigree.
I could see Lowrie hitting .280/.345/.385 — maybe knock the average and OBP down a tick for hitting at the Coliseum — with average SS defense. And that would be more than adequate to solve SS for a while.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Sweet. Call Theo.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Besides, we're gonna need more trade bait in 2012.
Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you. ~Reggie Jackson
Why is that line better than what we'll get from Pennington?
"She's kinda got cankles, our kids are gonna have to play soccer." ~ Mrs. "Disco" Hayes
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 8, 2009 6:34 PM PST up reply actions
Taken a look at Pennington's ZiPS or CHONE lately?
In the words of the Aladdin Genie, “It’s not a pretty sight. I don’t like doing it.”
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
My suggestions
I mentioned a few in the other thread. But here they are again:
1. Ziegler for Lowrie (good baseball-wise but heartbreaking)
2. Wuertz for Lowrie (got a few people to say yes, but I might want a bit more)
3. Hairston and Demel for Lowrie (could be interesting for Boston if they want leverage with Bay as well as a platoon partner for Tacoby Bellsbury)
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Agreed on all ideas
Hairston trade still doesnt make much sense, but maybe if they flip within the next 2 yrs they could turn him into something better than lowrie. I’d still much rather give ABs to the buck, cunningham, patterson trio in LF over hairston
I doubt the Red Sox want a reliever. Their pen is really good.
Their biggest need is LF, and, other than Carter, I don’t see anyone the A’s have that could improve them there now or in the future. If I were Theo, I’d want something like Weeks and Henry for Lowrie. Otherwise I’d just keep Lowrie and see if he can get healthy.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 5, 2009 6:10 PM PST up reply actions
They've expressed interest in Soriano/Gonzalez
Although they’ve also had interest in just about every FA. I’m almost willing to bet that one of Bay and Holliday will sign with Boston. FWIW, I’d take Lowrie for Weeks and Henry.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Weeks and Henry for Lowrie
Giving up too much. Theo would take it, but I’m not sure it would be smart for to trade for another guy who hasn’t been able to stay consistently healthy.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 6, 2009 11:00 AM PST up reply actions
Eh?
Weeks has been a walking Medivac ward since the A’s drafted him and Rodriguez hasn’t been entirely healthy himself.
I think the A’s would actually improve their team health by making that move. (As a result, I’d probably take the offer if it was made.)
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
it only seems to improve our team health
in that we would have one oft-injured guy and give away two of them. Not sure if addition by subtraction is the way to go here.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 6, 2009 1:12 PM PST up reply actions
Buck?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Oh I think he'd cost at least $2.50.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Buck should change his number so his unoform could read...
BUCK
98
Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you. ~Reggie Jackson
or he could just change his name to Charles Shaw
and wear any damn number he pleases…
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 7, 2009 12:17 PM PST up reply actions
If they want to go with a disappointing, once-highly-touted outfielder,
they already have Jeremy Hermida…
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
I will be the one to register an objection to #3.
I like Hairston better than that.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Nah
I’d do it. I have no problem with (ultimately) turning a hurt Sean Gallagher and three relief pitchers into Jed Lowrie.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Not bloody likely
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Would you object if they sign Bobby Crosby?
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
Lowrie would be like a free lottery ticket
Basically what they are hoping they have in jake fox. Showed goodproduction in minors, but now stuck in a depth chart situation w/ more expensive veterans ahead. With lowell’s age and scutaro not young either, it wouldnt be the worst idea for red sox to keep lowrie in a utility role. Since their own upper level IF depth seems to be depleted too
Lowrie > Fox
Lowrie is a slightly worse hitting Fox except he plays a competent-to-good SS. That little fact means he’ll be worth an extra positional adjustment over Fox. That could be as many as 20 runs.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Whats wrong with having both!
Even though they wont flat out say it, they probably wanted fox just for his bat and to replace cust at some point. the everyday 3b dream for Fox, likely wont work out. Or they secretly hope McPherson is finally healthy and maybe even maximize chavez or even powell in a DH role. Cust days with the A’s likely wont last much longer
The hitting difference is more than slight
Lowrie’s clearly the better player, but I don’t think the difference is near 20 runs. 10-15, maybe.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
I won't argue with you there
But adding that into my post takes away from my point.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Ellis is very much a bargain, actually.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Ellis is a bargain
His short comings on offense would be easily over looked in a good line up. He reminds me of the days when we had Mike Gaillego and Tony Phillips and a offense where all we needed was defense from the second base position.
I would agree with the consensus of the above thread, Lowrie would be a good trade if we don’t have to give up one of our “real” prospects.
Beane considering non-tender tag for Cust?
Highlights
* Most signs point to their not tendering an arbitration offer to Cust before Saturday’s deadline
* While it might seem strange the power-starved A’s would part with Cust, they have myriad options that might not require such a sizable investment.
* What’s more, the A’s still have a shot at trading Cust this week instead of nontendering him. The New York Mets and Seattle Mariners reportedly might be interested.
* A’s general manager Billy Beane wouldn’t tip his hand on Cust last week.
* “We’ve still got some time to decide, and that’s certainly a matter of in-house conversation right now,” Beane said. “The decision has yet to be made on Jack, and no doubt, it’s one of the bigger ones we have to make in the next week or so.”
"just a beating heart ... plasma that we'll put into our uniform." - Billy Beane
by athleticsBB4life on Dec 5, 2009 9:56 PM PST reply actions
Very weird story
There is absolutely no reason for the A’s to non-tender Cust unless they really, truly believe that he’s about to tank. Even if he gets $4.5 million through arbitration he’d have to perform worse than he did in 2009 to not earn his keep. As for Jake Fox… he’s cheap and he’s got an option remaining. There is no reason both players can’t be in the A’s organization in 2010 if the FO wants them around.
Now, as for Beane trading Cust… I’m down with any move that improves the team. What could Beane get for Jack Cust?
The monster at the end of this blog.
At the very least, we know the A's have that money "in hand" because they just offered it to Scutaro...
and there’s nothing in that story at all pointing to a nontender other than speculation. I’d really be stunned (and deeply irritated) if the A’s dumped Cust for nothing, because he just is not very expensive at all.
It seems more likely that they have some amount of room in the budget and they’ll spend it on Cust if it hasn’t ended up going to someone else by next Saturday.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
I commented on this in the other thread
What I find interesting is that the Merc story doesn’t really tie the conclusion to anything Beane said. In fact, it explicitly acknowledges that Beane didn’t say anything about it.
All it does is assemble the pieces of an alleged logjam at the DH position and conclude that “most signs point to” Cust being the odd man out. But none of those pieces — Fox playing DH instead of 3B, Chavez being healthy, Wallace brought up, MacPherson playing 3B, Carter or Doolittle brought up to DH — are very convincing alone.
If the A’s do non-tender Cust, I am baffled, because that makes no sense to me. That a newspaper journalist would spin an entertaining story with a dubious conclusion out of a non-answer from an evasive GM does make sense to me.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
I'll go with the regression theory...
his production has gone down… as his salary has increased.
…or maybe BB just wants to try something different, lets face it…they can lose just as easily with or without Cust.
I won’t be sad to see him go, but it would be nice if the A’s could pry something away from the M’s, Mets or whoever.
"just a beating heart ... plasma that we'll put into our uniform." - Billy Beane
by athleticsBB4life on Dec 5, 2009 10:13 PM PST reply actions
so DH by committee in 2010
That looks to be the plan if the Cust non tender happens. I would assume Fox, Chavez (if healthy),extra OF(Hairston, Buck, etc), Powell, McPherson,Everidge would be in that mix.
Also interesting from that Beane interview, A’s are still looking to add another 3b (trade or FA).
sounds about right...
except we won’t be seeing Everidge, I think they saw enough of that experiment.
"just a beating heart ... plasma that we'll put into our uniform." - Billy Beane
by athleticsBB4life on Dec 5, 2009 10:36 PM PST up reply actions
Ha, Everidge!
Even the Merc author didn’t think to add him to the story. Could have been one more piece to his puzzle.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
I'm glad Everidge made the big book...
and I hope never to see him in an A’s uniform again….
unless he gets bit by a radioactive spider or something!
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 7, 2009 12:19 PM PST up reply actions
Slight extra thought on the Scutaro signing with Boston
Playing in Toronto, and all the games in the AL East-heavy schedule, put him in a time zone more closely aligned with Venezuela. Scoot appears to be a family-oriented guy, so having a majority of his games on the USA East Coast may have swayed him to reject returning to the West Coast and a “further-from Venezuela” time zone setting.
Money conquers all, but it would have taken considerably more, IMO.
"The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled."-Plutarch
by One won lost won on Dec 6, 2009 12:25 AM PST reply actions
My first reaction is to completely discount this, but...
…there have been plenty of American players who live on the east coast and don’t want to play for west coast teams for that reason. Granted, their motivations are often literal traveling time to see the family, or time away from the family, which is more of a moot point regarding Venezuela, but it still could be a factor.
Personally, if I had to venture a guess, I’d say the chance to play for a team that has a legit shot at winning… now!… and with rabid die-hard fans, was the deciding factor.
Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you. ~Reggie Jackson
A's leaning toward free agents.
HIGHLIGHTS
“What we really want to do is give our young players a chance to develop,” A’s general manager Billy Beane said, “and we want to hold on to them.”
Last month, Beane spoke of improving the offense via trades, and he acquired Jake Fox and Aaron Miles from the Cubs on Thursday. Now he’s looking mostly at free agents, if only because he appears unwilling to part with any of his valuable youth.
“We would probably be more interested in free agents,” Beane said. “Given we’re going through a rebuilding process, the advantage with free agents is you don’t have to give up a player for them.”A draft choice, either.
The A’s aren’t interested in elite free agents or any who’d cost a compensatory draft pick (Type A free agents who were offered arbitration by their original teams).
Oakland’s goal is to find a long-term answer at third base. Fox is a third baseman by trade, but the A’s might also play him at first, in left and as a designated hitter. Brett Wallace might not be ready for the majors. Dallas McPherson has been shelved with injuries. Adam Kennedy is a free agent but not entirely out of the picture. Eric Chavez still is around.
That’s a lot of options, but the A’s remain in the market for a third baseman.
“We’re trying to surround the position,” joked Beane, adding, “If Chavez is healthy, he’s the guy. But we have to prepare for him not to be. Even if he is healthy, we still need someone long term.”
Beane is said to have inquired about Kansas City’s Alex Gordon and Alberto Callaspo and the Angels’ Brandon Wood, but none is considered trade bait for now.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/12/06/SPGJ1AVJ6Q.DTL#ixzz0Yw6aeMNl
"just a beating heart ... plasma that we'll put into our uniform." - Billy Beane
by athleticsBB4life on Dec 6, 2009 10:55 AM PST reply actions
callaspo is the only one who makes sense
After MacPherson and Fox signing, the only reason to acquire Wood or Gordon would be to consider flipping them. Either way, these are guys that the A’s like, but I can’t see how we would manage to trade away all those guys and get something decent in return.
Even Callaspo is a little bit of a head-scratcher, unless they plan on converting him to an SS. Why bother plugging a hole that doesn’t yet exist at 2B?
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 6, 2009 11:12 AM PST up reply actions
Would this suggest Beltre is in the mix?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
maybe...if they can get him for Scutaro $...
although, I recall reading somewhere that Beltre wants at least $10 mil a season
"just a beating heart ... plasma that we'll put into our uniform." - Billy Beane
by athleticsBB4life on Dec 6, 2009 11:32 AM PST up reply actions
Beltre is a compensation pick
He is going to get around 10 million from the M’s in arbitration.
Not for us
He is a type B this year (the ranking system is all fucked up) so the team that signs him doesn’t lose their pick and the Mariners get a supplemental pick.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 6, 2009 1:42 PM PST up reply actions
Huh?
McPherson is a minor league free agent. If he was anything that could be remotely relied on, he would not be available as a minor league free agent.
Fox is a late-bloomer bat who barely corresponds to the label “third baseman.”
The reason to acquire Wood and Gordon would be to put them at third base and have them play third base for the Oakland Athletics. Right now there are basically two players who could conceivably do so in the Oakland farm system and both of them are, at least according to CHONE (which by the way has pitching projections up now— woot), not particularly even close to being good enough to do so yet.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
none of those guys can be relied upon, you're right
But if we were going after Gordon and Wood, they’re not really any better than the others. Gordon has injury issues but could be good if healthy, and Wood has gotten a couple of cups of coffee but never really strung anything worthwhile together.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 6, 2009 1:09 PM PST up reply actions
I can't tell if you're trying to impeach the entire concept of prospect evaluation
or just ignorant of how highly thought of Gordon and Wood are. They are not comparable players to Jake Fox or post-back-surgery Dallas McPherson or post-two-back-surgeries Eric Chavez. These guys are, or were until they exhausted their eligibility, mega-prospects of the first order.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
were mega prospects
Gordon was injured, but is more than respectable if healthy. Wood, though, even though he’s killed it in AAA, hasn’t done much with the slgenA when he was up.
In 157 PA in 2008 on the big club, he was .200/.224/.327/.551, wOBA .246
In 1/3rd of the PA in 2009 on the big club, he put up virtually identical numbers (not that that means anything with such a small sample size)
In 2008 AAA, he was .296/.375/.595/.970, wOBA .405
In 2009 AAA, .293/.353/.557/.910, wOBA .387
all well and good, but there should be suspicion that he is an AAAA guy.
Nevertheless, by main point is why bother amassing more players than we need at one position who don’t really look like they fit at another?
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 6, 2009 3:27 PM PST up reply actions
Brandon Wood has like half a season of MLB at-bats
over three years in which he was repeatedly unable to secure consistent playing time and often had to pinch-hit or come off the bench mid-game (pinch hitting is known to have negative effects on performance).
Yes, the risk of him busting is not zero. No, that does not make him equivalent to broken toys like McPherson and Chavez or to scrap-heap guys like Fox.
I vehemently dispute the notion that this is more 3B than the A’s need. Getting even 50 non-horrible starts out of the current crew at third base would be quite the success.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
+1
Both Wood and Gordon would be high on my list of trade candidates should the A’s chose to focus only on the future.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
I've got Wood.
I mean…
I like Wood…
no wait…
I mean… trade a relief pitcher or two for Wood.
That’s the ticket!
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 7, 2009 12:22 PM PST up reply actions
Hey, everyone:
If you’ve got Wood and need relief, just call Gaijin Suketto.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Dec 7, 2009 12:27 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
(Brandon Wood talking to his mirror image in a glass building)
So, are we going to tell the doctor today?
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 7, 2009 1:35 PM PST up reply actions
They always get a rise outta me!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
"She's kinda got cankles, our kids are gonna have to play soccer." ~ Mrs. "Disco" Hayes
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 8, 2009 6:40 PM PST up reply actions
The real problem here
is that there’s only one “long-term answer” left on the free agent market— Beltre. Everyone else is hurt, bad, ancient, or some combination of the three
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
None on trading block
unless you want to trade a good starter.
You seem to be a lot more interested in guys with no O and good D than vice-versa
May I present to you, Pedro Feliz!
LOL…I just reinforced your point in the above post!
"She's kinda got cankles, our kids are gonna have to play soccer." ~ Mrs. "Disco" Hayes
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 8, 2009 6:42 PM PST up reply actions
He's the trifecta-- hurt, bad AND ancient!
If this was 2007 and he was looking for the contract he signed that offseason, I’d be on board… but it ain’t 2007.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
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