Alberto Callaspo, ORLY?
by Daniel777 on Dec 3, 2009 3:56 AM PST
Email
PrintThe A's and Royals held talks for infielder Alberto Callaspo at the GM Meetings, according to Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports. The A's would've used Callaspo at third base, but "talks failed to progress."
Dang.
I really hope these talks are not dead. Callaspo really seems like our cup of tea.
.300/.356/.457 with sneaky doubles power, more BBs then Ks. He had the 5th worst UZR/150 for a full time 2B, but his tiny 230ish innings career sample at 3B is actually rather awesome.
I wonder what we were offering? Cahill? A reliever? The Royals need a lot of things we're deep in.
What do you think would get it done? I'm thinking a gaggle of relievers, and maybe they'll also throw in Kila "why am I still in AAA?" Kaaihue.
51 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
ha
If we offered Cahill, they would have said yes.
Seriously – a few people on this site don’t like Cahill as much as some of us, and now you’d think the guy is Dana Eveland.
Weird thing is, even the people who don’t like Cahill probably know he has some value, and more than Callaspo.
Agreed - Cahill seems to get a raw deal on this site
He struggled as a 21 year old in the majors with a handful of starts above A ball. In 2008 he had a MLE FIP of 4.14. I wouldn’t give him up for Callaspo and luckily it seems like Beane rates him higher than some of the posters on this board.
You know it's possible to rate him highly
and still think that he’s not ready for MLB yet?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Yes I do - even though I think he will be fine in 2010, I can accept that you don't think he is ready but still rate him highly
Other comments seem to imply he is almost worthless though. Worthless is probably a bit strong but his previous minor league performance does seem to be dismissed by some.
No, you're misunderstanding.
Last year he was really bad in MLB. One of the worst full time starters. That has little to do with him being a top prospect.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I understand
Just seems some people forget the second bit
The point is there are very very very few pitchers that recover from seasons as bad as Cahills was to be top of the rotation starters
It is very likely that the A’s impatience broke him.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 5, 2009 4:51 PM PST up reply actions
Using one season of data is a lousy way to project the course of a career
C’mon, Mulder’s rookie year was just as lousy and he got better real quick. So am I saying Cahill is another Mulder? Nope.
Just that you could have said that Mulder was broke after his rookie performance and you would have been completely and totally wrong.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Yeah I don't get that line of thinking
If Cahill is so fragile that his confidence is shattered, then he wasn’t the prospect we thought. More likely, the A’s said “You’re 21, don’t worry about it, you got great experience, you’re gonna be fine, let’s keep working on repeatable mechanics.” Cahill is as likely to remember pitching pretty effectively down the stretch as he is to remember struggling, or being lucky, before that.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yeah see how well that worked
Cahill completely fucked up his mechanics rarely finding a consistent arm slot, ditched what was his out pitch in the minors, and pitched like shit even at the end of the year. The whole trying to figure shit out against MLB hitters can get you in really bad habits, one of the reasons im suspicious of ARL prospects who do not put up good levels of statistical production.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 6, 2009 12:52 PM PST up reply actions
I just don't agree about how Cahill pitched
His changeup got noticeably better throughout the season, and towards the end of the year he was throwing a slider that he hung far less than the curve/knucke-curve.
To me it’s pretty straight-forward: If Cahill commands his sinker he will be a very good pitcher. If that takes him another year, he’ll be a 23 year old who is a very good major league pitcher. If he doesn’t, he’ll be like every other prospect who can’t command his fastball.
And given that the kid is only 21, is working with Young and Romanick, and has had his potential widely praised by scouts, I’m still pretty optimistic about his future.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
They promoted a starter without a semblance of an effective second or third pitch.
and blew a year of service time doing it while it Cahill was invariably NOT one of the best five pitchers on the A’s.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 6, 2009 1:39 PM PST up reply actions
The "service time" issue is entirely different
If you’re concerned about Cahill not being under contract in 2015, that’s legit but it’s a whole other concern.
Meanwhile, the way Cahill developed secondary pitches in 2009 tells me that perhaps promoting him was the best way to do that. Maybe the A’s felt this could happen best in Oakland under the tutelage of Young/Romanick, and that it would serve Cahill best to do that “on the job” learning against major league hitters since that’s who he needs to get out.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Mark Mulder's tRA was a half a run better than Cahill's.
He was also three years older.
Furthermore one example does not negate my argument that while it is possible for Cahill to be a top of the rotation starter it was a very very very bad indicator for the future if Cahill is to be a #1/2 pitcher.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 6, 2009 12:49 PM PST up reply actions
my bad
that tRA is from 02 i looked at the first entry and didn’t look to see what year it was.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 6, 2009 1:08 PM PST up reply actions
I have two problems with this.
First, I don’t think your conclusion logically follows from your premise. If a pitcher sucks in his first season, it may be because he wasn’t ready or it may be because he just sucks anyways. Either a pitcher is brought up too early or he isn’t. Your premise is that guys who are bad in their first season in the bigs rarely turn out good. Let’s call that Premise A. If we want to exclude guys brought up before they were ready, we could say guys who were not brought up too early and were still bad in their first season rarely turn out good. Call that Premise A(1). I think you’ll agree that it is even more true. The proper premise for drawing conclusions about Trevor Cahill is not Premise A, but rather the difference between A and A(1).
My second problem is I don’t think your premise is even true anyway. Intuitively it seems false to me, because I can remember lots of pitchers who stunk up the joint in their first year but later turned out good.
But I know that memory can be faulty, so to confirm I paid a visit to FanGraphs looking up various starting pitchers and checking their numbers in their first year. FanGraphs doesn’t have tRA before 2006, so I’m looking at FIP.
Here’s a list of guys I found who had >5 FIP in their first season, along with their FIPs in that season:
Trevor Cahill 2009 = 5.33
Mark Mulder 2000 = 5.27
Roy Halladay 1999 = 5.36
Jon Garland 2000 = 5.56
Jair Jurrjens 2007 = 5.26
Javier Vazquez 1998 = 5.24
Wandy Rodriguez 2005 = 5.12
Randy Wolf 1999 = 5.14
Bronson Arroyo 2000 = 5.23
Kevin Correia 2003 = 5.27
Ryan Dempster 1998 = 5.86
John Danks 2007 = 5.54
Jeff Weaver 1999 = 5.22
Now I don’t know how many of these guys you’re going to say aren’t really “top of the rotation starters” or whether you’re going to say that 5.27 FIP doesn’t qualify as “as bad as” Trevor’s 5.33. But even if you throw out half my examples, I still think that’s more than “very very very few”. And these are just guys I found poking around and trying names. If you were to do a proper search there’d probably be plenty more.
In any case there’s no reason at all to conclude that “the A’s impatience broke” Cahill. Either he’s good but just not ready yet, in which case he’ll bounce back like Halladay, Mulder, et al did; or maybe he just sucks anyway and was never going to make it no matter when he was brought up.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Dec 5, 2009 8:31 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I think both your premise and your examples are illogical
Why do we want to exclude players who were brought up too early? If we did that we would have to exclude Trevor Cahill who was very clearly before the season not ready for the big leagues.
Roy Halladay was sent to the minors and rebuilt. AKA exactly what we should do with Cahill
Mulder was older and had an injury that probably hurt his performance.
Jon Garland is not a good pitcher. In his first 6 years he had an above league average FIP once and he only bested the mark by .005. Hardly what I would call top of the rotation.
Jair Jurrjens had a 30ip sample size not nearly the extent of suckitude that Cahill displayed.
Ill give you Vazquez even though he had a ERA of 5 the next year. He has turned out to be an excellent pitcher.
Wandy Rodriguez was terrible for his first three years. ALSO HE WAS SENT TO THE MINORS TO FIX THINGS. Even though he was good last year he still is only producing 2 WAR a year of control. Hardly top of the rotation.
Randy Wolf had 3 of his 7 years of control be below average with FIP, though the other years he was good.
Arroyo from 2000-2009 has had a below average FIP 6 times.
Kevin Correia is waiver wire fodder.
Dempster was so bad they made him leave to rotation has only had 2 above league average WAR seasons ever (being the last two years) and was below league average FIP for 5 of his first 6 seasons.
Danks’ first year had a BAPIP that was twenty points higher than at any other time in his career his first year and has been below average both this year and two of his three years in the bigs by FIP.
And yes most of these numbers weren’t as bad though thats pretty irrelevant. These are the successes though. I cant find a database that has rookie years and FIP to search but if these are your best examples of how im wrong then Im pretty confident in my original argument.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 6, 2009 1:36 PM PST up reply actions
I think there are a lot of people (me included) who think Cahill is not ready for 2010
That has little to do with whether he is a valuable prospect (he is).
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
yep.
Personally I’d just really like to see him still in an A’s uniform in 2015, playing for a contending A’s team in a new stadium, rather than already being a free agent by then and pitching for someone else.
I’d really rather the team didn’t unnecessarily burn through his three cheapest seasons with three below-average campaigns.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Dec 3, 2009 5:43 PM PST up reply actions
Do we have a Cahill whose first name isn't Trevor?
You were talking about that guy, right?
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
4 years of 2-3 WAR including some arbitration raises
would probably cost you someone like Weeks, Cunningham or Cardenas and one or two C level prospects.
That would make sense in my view if you could offlaod some roster sensitive prospects like Figueroa and Souza
Weeks, Cunningham, or Cardenas.
One of those things is not like the other one…
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
No way Cahill
This smells to much like a Ginter trade. No starting pitcher i would trade for a 1 year wonder. Ziegler or a Buck but no Cahill. KC needs starting pitching but unless its a low a ball prospect I would stick with what we have. I do wonder if Beane was just more looking at what the cost was for Alex Gordon. He would be more usefull for the A’s.
he is not a one year wonder
He was a decent prospect.
Callaspo through 2013
Might not be a bad idea. Gotta love that team control for 4 more years…
Wade Hines
Cahill for a 5' 9" 26 year old third baseman
With only one season with a slugging percentage over 370?
Uh…no.
Maybe Donaldson and random second tier starting prospect.
Gordon or bust...
Simmons and Donaldson for Gordon (and thats a good trade for KC, might even offer less for gordon)…KC uses Callaspo at 3b until their big 3B prospect until Mike Moustakas is ready.
Speaking of "bust"
Mike Moustakas looks very bust-tacular right about now…
Also, that’s an utterly horrible trade for KC that would cause even Dayton Moore to hang up his phone and block your number.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Not understanding why the A's are not working the free agent market for 3B
This is the best it will get for years and years; there are tons of average-or-better 3B types out there, albeit many of them have injury histories. Why would you give up talent through a trade when you don’t have to?
I mean, seeing if DMGM will trade a useful player for some garbage return (see: Mike Jacobs) is never a worthless exercise, and that might be all that’s going on here, but if the team is actually looking for a 3B, I don’t get why they aren’t going to the site where they can be found aplenty.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Tons?
There are the following:
Type A
* Chone Figgins, 32, Angels
Type B
* Adrian Beltre, 30, Mariners
* Mark DeRosa, 35, Cardinals
* Melvin Mora, 38, Orioles
No compensation
- Geoff Blum, 36, Astros
- Aaron Boone, 37, Astros
- Joe Crede, 31, Twins
- Pedro Feliz, 34, Phillies
- Nomar Garciaparra, 36, A’s
- Troy Glaus, 33, Cardinals
- Mike Lamb, 34, Brewers
- Fernando Tatis, 3B, Mets
Nothing about that list is inspiring. Figgins is good, but he costs a draft pick; Beltre goes from average to not good if his defense slips (entirely possible over a multi-year contract), and then there’s a whole bunch of old and/or injured crap.
We’ve been down this road before, though. You want Beltre and have decided that there’s no way Wallace will ever be able to play third base, even though the former has no room for improvement and the latter has lots.
The reason the A’s aren’t looking for a FA 3B is that they’re not going to win anything next year, they believe in Brett Wallace and thus don’t want to block him with either of the two viable long-term options, and spending money on a DeRosa or Glass Glaus for a one-year commitment (if he would even sign such a deal) doesn’t make much more sense than just keeping the money.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
There was also the Polanco idea,
Which I would endorse, but he appears to be signing with the Phillies.
"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau
by King Richard on Dec 3, 2009 12:03 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Which would be a great move for both of them
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Yeah, see, the whole "they believe in Brett Wallace!" rationale has basically evaporated in the last week
First the interview with Sickels where Beane pretty much embodied “damning with faint praise,” and then the reports embodied in this post.
It was a dubious argument to start with— I’m not much of a fan of “deference” arguments no matter what the forum is— but it’s super-dubious now.
As for your assessment of Beltre, well, it’s really not worthy of a response.
And, as noted, you ignored Polanco, who the A’s should and could have beaten the Phillies’ offer on by at least a million a year. They got him for a ridiculous steal of a price.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Yeah, see, Polanco's bat doesn't play at third (which he hasn't played for years, either)
and I stand by my assessment of a 100-105 OPS+ third baseman. The idea that Beane has given up on Wallace at third because they expressed interest in Callaspo is simply ridiculous. All it means is he’s interested in Callaspo. I, for one, am happy that he’s more interested in Callaspo than high-risk, low-reward free agent solutions.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
You're ignoring defense (and for that matter positional adjustments, which are exactly the same for 3B and 2B, making any bat that "plays" at either position play at the other)
which makes your opinion basically useless.
You and PL78 should get together sometime with Adam Dunn and Ty Wigginton (and Callaspo, for that matter)— it’ll be a PARTAY!
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
You didn't read my posts
But then, when do you? I ignored neither the defense of Polanco nor the defense of Beltre.
You should get together with somebody who understands decent human decency, and observing it in casual conversation. It will be a a PARTAY!
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
There is no possible way that one can arrive at the conclusion that Beltre is "average"
without ignoring defense.
Well, I suppose there’s “lying to make your point look better,” but that’s even worse.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Exactly what did Beane say that was so damning?
I read the Sickels interview, all Beane said was that Wallace wasn’t ready to play 3B for Oakland now. You’ve been campaigning that he isn’t ready to hit in Oakland.
Sounds like a guy who needs more time to develop!
Beane’s line on Wallace staying at 3B was the same thing the FO has been saying all along: Hopeful, and boy it would really help the club if he could play the hot corner.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Yeah, I didn't get any "Wallace is doomed at third" vibes at all.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
I would sign Glaus if he was the missing piece of the puzzle
the guy is a walking DL…
Roids – ahhh YES!
Can he still hit – probably
but where not going to compete in 2010, so there really isn’t a need to pay him for one year – keep the cash and get some experience for our youth.
Bet KC was asking for Donaldson
Definitely not Cahill. Earlier in the offseason, the Dodgers and Royals were reportedly talking about a Callaspo for AJ Ellis trade.
Jack "The Must, Just has no Rust, ain't no Bust, after him the ladies Lust, turns pitchers into Dust, likes his pizza with no Crust" Cust
They were asking for Donaldson?
I hadn’t heard any details, where’d you get your info?
"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau
I don't know for sure
Hence the “bet”. But I’m assuming based on KC’s needs and what we have that fits their needs that seems to close to equal value of Callaspo, which = Donaldson imo
Jack "The Must, Just has no Rust, ain't no Bust, after him the ladies Lust, turns pitchers into Dust, likes his pizza with no Crust" Cust
Reported trade for Jake Fox and Aaron Miles (???)
Fox might be the stopgap 3B type that we’ve been waiting for. I don’t get what Miles is doing in this deal, as he’s complete garbage.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
I guess so
Miles being the backup, yeah?
“Cash considerations” reportedly included, so I assume that means Chicago is paying most of Miles’s salary. That makes that part of the deal look a little better.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Baseball Nation Recent Stories
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Five tips for Showtime’s second season of ‘The Franchise,’ featuring the Miami Marlins
- The 10 best things about being a Detroit Tigers fan
- Surprise! A’s finally end the Yoenis Cespedes derby with $36 million deal for Cuban star
- The time Whitney Houston sang to Jim Bowden
- Pitchers and catchers! Mariners get early start in Arizona
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
