My 2 Cents On Fantasy Bullpen's "Q & A's" -- Did They Overpay?
If you want to see my answers to questions posed by Fantasy Bullpen about the 2010 A's, check it out. We discuss, among other things, what the 2010 versions of Brett Anderson and Trevor Cahill will bring, and how the outfield will shape up following the additions of Michael Taylor and Coco Crisp. Enjoy the trip; then come back and tell me what I should have said...
UPDATE, 10:52am PST -- If you want to read the interview, but want to avoid more pop-ups than a lineup of Bobby Crosbys, it is now pasted below...
FBP: First off, thank you for taking the time to answer a few questions for us. Easy question to start off. How do you see the Athletics finishing in 2010? Record?
Nico: As much as it pains me to say it, and as good as I think/hope the A’s will become 2011, I would have to predict a last place finish for Oakland in 2010. As the roster currently stands, Kurt Suzuki looks like he could be the team’s HR leader with around 15, there isn’t a single hitter I would really want batting #3 or #4, and 3B is still a black hole with SS in the uncertain hands of Cliff Pennington.
If and when Michael Taylor, Chris Carter, and Adrian Cardenas arrive, it’s a whole different story. But the 2010 team looks like a scrappy bunch that will alternate winning and losing games 3-2. I see this team, as currently constituted, going 79-83, with a strong second half as the offense improves upon the arrival of some good young hitting talent.
FBP: The main focus of my 2010 Athletics preview is Brett Anderson, who I think will emerge as an ace in 2010. You simply don’t see many 22 year olds who strikeout that many people, keeping the walks in check and inducing groundballs, and his second half performance showed significant across the board growth. What would you project Anderson’s ‘10 line to be, and what do you think he still needs to work on?
Nico: I agree about how good Anderson is. Add to your praise the fact that he is unusually poised and mature — both unflappable and shrewd about how to work big league hitters. Assuming good health, and factoring in that he plays half his game in a very good pitcher’s park, Anderson is fully capable of putting up a line of something like 17-10, 3.30 ERA. Subtract some wins if the offense refuses to score any runs behind him, but the bullpen should be one of the best in baseball.
FBP: One concern I have about Anderson is the workload. In 2008, he threw 105 innings, compared to 175 last year. That jump raises somewhat of a red flag. How do you think he’ll handle it going forward?
Nico: My concern about Anderson is not so much the innings workload, but the fact that his natural physique is not the ideal athlete’s build. Now he’s been working hard, and apparently very successfully, with Bob Alejo (A’s Strength & Conditioning coach), but we’ve already seen Anderson miss a little time due a “stiff back” and a recurring blister. Anderson still, to me, has the potential to become another Justin Duchscherer — an ace when he’s out there, but often shelved due to this or that.
I’m less worried about the IP because Anderson, by nature, economizes his pitches, and not all innings are alike. The A’s kept him around 100 pitches every start and he just got a lot of innings out of 100 pitches because he throws quality strikes.
FBP: Going into last season, most rankings actually had Trevor Cahill, not Anderson, as the A’s top pitching prospect. He struggled quite a bit in 2009, but do you think he can correct that next year? Where did his strikeouts go? Should he start the year in the big league rotation, or maybe move back down to the upper minors, where he has very little experience?
Nico: “Cahill going forward” is the subject of much controversy on AN, because his peripherals were even worse than his basic stats, and some feel he was not only rushed unnecessarily but possibly damaged and/or exposed as not that good.
I’m a bit more optimistic on Cahill, because throughout the course of the season his changeup improved greatly and in August and September he developed a slider that he hung far less than he had hung the curve/knuckle-curve in April-July.
He’s also only 21, having already gotten big league experience and learned some key adjustments with his stuff. I don’t see any reason Cahill can’t be a very good pitcher in the future — but I imagine his breakthrough season will be 2011, not 2010, as he is very much a work-in-progress.
Specifically, he lacks the most element that is most essential for a major league pitcher: fastball command. Whenever Cahill develops the ability to throw his fastball consistently where he wants to, he will take off. That could happen in April, 2010 or never. My guess is it will happen somewhere in between, such as around the 2010 ASB.
FBP: How do you see the A’s outfield situation playing out with Taylor, Davis, Crisp, etc.? Do you think Taylor will see any substantial playing time in 2010?
Nico: Yes, but not in April. Partly because he’s had fairly little time in AAA and partly because it would be foolish to allow a slugger to become a “Super 2″ in arbitration (which tends to reward sluggers), Taylor should not make the team out of Spring Training. But if he tears it up in AAA, I don’t see why he can’t be called up in May or June, for keeps.
Until then, barring a trade I’d expect to see an April OF lineup of primarily Crisp, Davis, and Sweeney, which could be one of the best defensive OFs in baseball — as well as one of the most pathetic ones in the HR column.
FBP: Andrew Bailey was fantastic in 2009, but past him, who do you see at the top of the bullpen depth chart going into next season? When is Joey Devine expected back?
Nico: Partly because Devine is coming back from injury (he’s expected back for Spring Training, though this puts him at the top end of the recovery scale), I think Bailey will be the team’s closer and Devine the set-up man. Behind them you have Michael Wuertz and Brad Ziegler, and from the left side you can choose from Craig Breslow, Jerry Blevins, and Brad Kilby. That’s a pretty deep and generally fantastic bullpen.
FBP: We all know the A’s farm system is stacked, but for dynasty league owners, can you give us maybe one or two under the radar names?
Nico:Anthony Capra doesn’t get a lot of press but looks like he could be a very good pitching prospect. Rashun Dixon is raw but is also very young (18) and full of tools. Grant Desme strikes out a ton but has made recent strides and just tore up the AFL last month.
FBP: What Athletic do you think is most likely to exceed expectations in 2010? Most likely to “bust?”
Nico: Daric Barton is a “breakout candidate” for 2010. He failed when he was very young and immature but while he doesn’t have a lot of power he has a chance to be a “Scott Hatteberg-type” player: Something like a line of .290/.370/.430, with very good defense, is not out of the question for Barton.
On the flip side, I just don’t see Pennington hitting in the big leagues over a full season. I’d guess he’ll have AVG and OBP closer to .230/.300 with very little power — I think a .650 OPS is perfectly possible, in which case his defense will need to be pretty spectacular to make up for his hitting.
138 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
That site is spam city
I am still getting pop up windows.
I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)
Thanks for the information. Will not go there.
Charlie Brown GO A'S WIN
by Charlie Brown on Dec 28, 2009 10:45 AM PST up reply actions
Hmm...In that case, I'll also paste the interview itself here, after the "jump"
After all, I’m the fricking interviewee.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
After the jump?
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 28, 2009 9:14 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, when I wrote that I didn't realize that
once you’ve posted without using the “jump,” when you go in to edit the “jump” is no longer there. So I did the next best thing: I clicked “post” and then got up from my seat and jumped. I think I may have broken a hip.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The code should still be there.
Go into the HTML version and find the bit of code that has “<!-- extended entry -->”. That’s the jump.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Just checked; it's not there.
I must have erased it or something. This could easily turn into another Watergate.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
As well it should.
You’ve three pages of text on fantasy baseball on the front page of AN.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 28, 2009 11:11 PM PST up reply actions
Simple enough fix
Go to html mode, sopy “<!-- extended entry -->” (sans quotes of course) and paste it where you want it. Voila, you’re done.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Good grief, you're right -- that's pretty ridiculous.
It’s now available on “spam-free AN!” (you still get the sausage and eggs, and a little spam)
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Great job NICO...
I think you did very well and have to agree with nearly everthing you had to say, except Barton’s stat line. I just think he will hit .265 and never get that high of a slugging percentage either…
Just my guess though!
Kinda makes that occasional Red Sox ad here a lot easier to stomach
Even better since I use AdBlockPlus.
Aside from that, I liked the answers.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Though I didn't get any pop-ups in Firefox or IE
Consider myself lucky.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Adblockplus is a wonderful wonderful thing
Luck has nothing to do with it.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Hariston
can hit 20 HRs. The question is can he play everyday, with or without injury.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
Eh, I'm not convinced he's a 20 HR guy in the AL and in the A's park.
The guy just can’t hit right-handed pitching very well.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 28, 2009 11:18 AM PST up reply actions
And he's never played a full season, and he's not likely to be an every day player
given the current glut of OFers and DHs. I’m not even sure he’ll be on the team in 2010 but if he is I’d be surprised if he surpassed 15 HRs.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I think Pennington has more HR potential than you give credit
While Pennington is no Tejada, I believe he will approach twenty in 2010 if he plays above 140 games. Reason? Bat speed. He doesn’t hit home runs to center, mostly down the line. But according to the book, The Physics of Baseball, hitting a majority of your home runs pulled down the line would be in keeping with getting the maximum distance out of a swing.
From what I’ve seen on TV, Pennington has good bat speed and can frequently pull pitches with good effect.
"The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled."-Plutarch
by One won lost won on Dec 28, 2009 12:05 PM PST reply actions
Wait.....what?!?
20 HR’s in 2010? You’re talking about the same guy who had 18 HR in 2159 PAs in the minors? That’s 5 HRs per 600 PAs. Oh and 6 of his MiLB HRs were at the HR haven of Stockton.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
another silly early prediction from me
If Pennington is our starting SS this year and plays at least 140 games, I bet he’ll get no less than six, but no more than twelve home runs.
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 28, 2009 2:19 PM PST up reply actions
I think this is a much better prediction than "approach twenty"
Though I think he’ll be a lot closer to six than twelve.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 29, 2009 10:57 AM PST up reply actions
I understand your thinking
I’m just taking an “outlier” approach, basically extrapolating from what I saw on his home run swings, and what The Physics of Baseball says about hitting home runs.
Note, I said “approach 20”….17, 18, 19.
I doubt that the A’s are simply going to repeat their 2009 approach to Pennington, simply handing him the job and saying, “You’re our shortstop, period.” So he’s not going to get enough PA’s to fulfill my prediction, or fail my prediction.
I believe he had a successful result to the A’s strategy at SS post-Cabrera, but that is without any analysis even from the most basic analytical tier. Just strictly “fan-type SOTP thinking”.
I don’t mind being wrong more than right on these predictions. But, it’s really great when it turns out the way I see it, beyond others’ expectations. Just my personal outlook re sports.
HoFer Joe Morgan showed power in the minors, but later in MLB didn’t start hitting home runs at a plus-20 rate until seven or eight years into his MLB career. Morgan was physically smaller, but as a HoFer he is obviously an extreme “infinitesimally small sample size”.
"The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled."-Plutarch
by One won lost won on Dec 30, 2009 9:19 AM PST up reply actions
Agree with the analysis as of today's date
However, if next week/month we are to sign Beltre and say, Delgado to DH, I see us being right in the mix for the division or the WC if the M’s and RS arent as advertised, here’s why:
-With the addition of Beltre, we would be across the board, the best defensive team in MLB.
-With Devine back, we are hards down the best bullpen in MLB.
-Now Crisp (and possibly Beltre) is here, we will steal more bases and just run the bases better than most if not all teams in baseball.
You cannot be the best team at so many facets of the game and not be competitive, it doesnt work like that. I think if Beltre comes along, there will be no doubt that the rotation will comprise the excellent Anderson-Duke and Braden, and then we can afford to let Mazzaro and Cahill continue to learn at the big league level and perhaps even get Washburn’s 09 (the Seattle part) out of them thanks to the good defense behind them. That gives us a really excellent rotation. We wont be a team that relies on the longball, but we will have 9 guys in the lineup who hit 10-20 HR and steal a shit-ton of bases, isnt that what the Angels have generally done to win the division these last few years?
I don’t know if signing Beltre makes the A’s a better defensive team than the Mariners.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 29, 2009 10:58 AM PST up reply actions
So you don't think that Cliff
will have the same nickname Art had?
Have a glove you could spare for a good cause? If so please let me know
I think Texas will fall apart next year.
But that’s the only thing that will save the A’s from a last-place finish.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
What are you basing that on?
I really have no idea what to think of them, at the moment. Seems their upside could be very high, no?
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
Makes very little sense to me
They have a lineup full of good hitters and a pitching staff full of stud prospects. Tough to admit it, but they’re basically ahead of the A’s right now across the board— both in the majors and in the minors.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
I think their results with pitching were pretty fluky last year.
I don’t think Scott Feldman can repeat what he did, and I know Kevin Millwood can’t. Maybe the young guns will develop fast enough to make up for it, but I think they’ll take a step back before they take another step forward.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Millwood's gone.
one more round, Millwood’s gone.
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 28, 2009 2:22 PM PST up reply actions
I just remembered that.
Well, certainly he can’t repeat what he did last year, then :-).
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
First time he beat them,
his club ran up the score,
but they don’t get ten runs a day up there in Baltimore
Millwood’s gone, one more round, Millwood’s gone.
"Sniff some krazy glue, and start a religion!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Dec 28, 2009 2:29 PM PST up reply actions
Scott Feldman
Is an extreme sinker baller. You can’t use your normal pitcher analysis with him. He has lower k’s and higher bb’s than most pitchers that have the same ERA as him because he has the highest or second highest groundball rate in the majors.
Cust is the new Jaha.
by johnjahafanclub on Dec 28, 2009 3:54 PM PST up reply actions
his FIP was 4.49
Thats not that great, and theyre losing Byrd so their defense isnt getting any better.
Losing an outfielder isn't really going to hurt a guy with an 80% ground ball rate
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
shaking head...
I guess you didn’t understand what he meant by not using traditional methods. A traditional method would be something like FIP, which is known to not work for extreme sinkerballers. This is the hope for Cahill, too, but his low GB% makes it questionable…
Feldman's tRA was 5.34.
That’s not great either.
Doesn’t the fact that his tRA is worse than his FIP suggest that he does worse than average with balls put in play, not better?
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Ground ball pitchers tend that way, no?
Aren’t GBs more subject to “luck” than FBs, as a rule?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm really hoping the "breakout performance" next year will belong to Ryan Sweeney.
Even if the guy upped his overall line ever so slightly to something like .290/.360/.420, that would be “breakout worthy” in my opinion.
I’ve always liked Sweeney’s approach as it pertains to runners-in-scoring position…he doesn’t seem to swing at a whole bunch of stuff outside of the strikezone, but he makes consistent hard contact with pitches in the strikezone and uses the whole field…I’m not asking for him to change everything and try to muscle pitches out of the yard, but if he could just continue to hit more doubles, then he’d actually be an intriguing guy to place in the 3-hole behind Crisp and Rajai…
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
I agree. I haven't been that high on Sweeney, but he's coming along
to where he’s just one jump away from being very, very good — and it’s not “HR power” so much as “doubles power.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
He's a little too straight laced to
break out with the 420.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
Don't let the haircut fool you.
Have you seen his tattoos?
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Guess we'll all be looking for Sweeney to be "smoking" the ball more next season....
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
Well if he is to "break out"
his slash line’s going to have to look a lot better than .290/.360/.420. That’s called “a marginal improvement”.
OH and I think Barton
might be the better “breakout” pick. Sweeney’s got a 4.1 WAR season under his belt, even if he hits his ceiling, he’s not going to a be a 5.0+ kind of guy. Barton on the other hand, has approximately 2 great months under his belt but is getting older and looking better at the plate. We should expect Barton to triple and maybe quadruple his previous WAR high of 1.1 in 2010.
Uh...
the fact that Sweeney has a 4.1 season under his belt suggest that if he does “hit his ceiling,” he’s going to be worth well more than 5 WAR.
If he were to repeat his defensive numbers from this year, it would take only 9 more RC with the bat to get him to 5 WAR. Something like a .290/.355/.430 over an entire season would be more than enough (not that that BA number matters).
"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau
by King Richard on Dec 28, 2009 5:55 PM PST up reply actions
There's really nothing at all even a teeny bit intriguing about what could be the worst 1-2 in baseball
I really, really hope the A’s realize that putting Crisp in the leadoff spot is all kinds of stupid. Of course, the Worst Manager in Baseball thought Cabrera in the 1 or 2 hole when he was the worst hitter on the team was a good idea, so I shouldn’t get my hopes up for an intelligent decision here.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 29, 2009 11:00 AM PST up reply actions
I agree that Cabrerra #2 is dumb
I just want to point out that every manager is the stupidest manager in baseball because they all put him at #2.
PS does he have a job? I don’t feel like looking it up.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
in 2009: .293/.348/.407
so 25 more points in OPS is enough for “breakout worthy”?
If hecan improve his home stats and maintain being a great hitter on theroad, that should be attainable. I’m not sold on him as a #3 hitter or even middleorder hitter, but the other options are not ideal. It interesting, that buck (if healthy) IMO could put up a.780 OPS w/ plus corner OF defense.
Hey all, for those who visited Fantasy Bullpen and saw pop up ads,
if you recall what the ads were, they’d like to know (because apparently there aren’t supposed to be pop-ups). Thanks to anyone who can help by identifying what the pop-ups were. They’d also be interested to know what browser you’re using.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
They're not getting the pop-ups they're hearing about.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Firefox blocked a popup from opening
for me when I visited the link
Cust is the new Jaha.
by johnjahafanclub on Dec 28, 2009 3:56 PM PST up reply actions
I got a pop up that just said 'Service Not Available'.
That rug really tied the room together...
by Streams Of Whiskey on Dec 28, 2009 4:13 PM PST up reply actions
I HATE that hooker.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Enjoyed the read.
Now, if someone had told you years ago, that one day you would actually assist, be involved someway with thousands of people’s fantasies?
alaska A residing in northern Idaho.
Frankly, years ago that was a heck of a lot more likely
Father Time is no friend of mine.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
"Father Time is no friend of mine."
But at least you can still do The Cabbage Patch!
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
So what's your prediction for opening day rotation?
Anderson/Duke/Braden/Cahill/?
rebuildingseason.blogspot.com
by Rebuilding Season on Dec 28, 2009 5:36 PM PST reply actions
Starting Rotation
The fifth spot will probably go to either Gio Gonzalez or Vin Mazzaro. Personally, I’d go with Gonzalez.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 28, 2009 5:49 PM PST up reply actions
Me 2!
Gio is my candidate to have a breakout year….
and
Hairston, if he stays, is my candidate to bust…
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
Hairston was injured last year.... if he is healthy he could have a breakout year.. or a midseason trade candidate
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
Y knot-
Gut tells me Gio might play well enough in ST to get the nod for #4
Braden (vet- and started last year)
Anderson
Duke
Gio
But for L/R yours is prob. right.
Cahill
I think he has to be in the rotation.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 28, 2009 6:22 PM PST up reply actions
Nothing Cahill did last year suggested he's ready to be in a major league rotation right now.
I’d much rather see a Duke, Braden, Anderson, Gio, Mazzaro rotation to start the season, with Cahill given time to work with his mechanics and control in AAA.
If you think Billy Beane is a bad GM, I hate you and find you stupid.
Wow
Nothing Cahill did last year suggested he’s ready to be in a major league rotation right now.
The same could be said for Mazzaro.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 28, 2009 6:47 PM PST up reply actions
Maz started exceptionally well, then not sure what happened after that.
Cahill- well, gave a lot of HR’s out.
"Exceptionally well" was mostly just his first 4 starts, though
After his first 2 starts, which were awesome, and the next 2, which were also good, Mazzaro was pretty consistently bad his last 12 starts.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Except pitch well in AA and AAA over the last two years?
Mazzaro has little, if anything at all, to prove in the minors. Cahill on the other hand shouldn’t have even sniffed the MLB last year and the fact that he did is probably my least favorite of Beane’s moves.
For what it’s worth, here are James predictions for the two:
Mazzaro’s FIP: 3.88
Cahill’s FIP: 5.12
If you think Billy Beane is a bad GM, I hate you and find you stupid.
Cahill and Mazzaro
I don’t know how those predictions even make sense seeing how Cahill was better than Mazzaro last season. Mazzaro had a slight edge in the strikeout-to-walk ratio and allowed less home runs, but Cahill had a better ERA, WHIP and BAA.
Cahill finished stronger down the stretch. In his last nine starts, he went 4-2 with a 3.44 ERA, 1.23 WHIP and a .242 BAA while allowing just two home runs.
Mazzaro, on the other hand, was pretty bad in his last 10 starts. He went 2-4 with a 7.21 ERA, 2.27 WHIP and a .369 BAA.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 28, 2009 11:22 PM PST up reply actions
MLEs
Mazzaro:
2009 MLE FIP: 3.87
2008 MLE FIP: 3.91
Cahill:
2008 MLE FIP: 4.14
Their 2009 ML FIPs were 4.93 and 5.33 for Maz and Cahill respectively. Their respective tRAs were 5.67 and 6.07. However, Mazzaro had a 3.29 tRA in AAA.
Basically, in every complex metric Mazzaro was somewhat better than Cahill in the majors and Mazzaro was very good in the minors. Given that Mazzaro had more than a third of his innings in AAA and Cahill spent all his time in the show, I see no reason why Cahill should project better than Vince. A 1.24 difference in FIP worse? Maybe, maybe not.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
The one complex metric where Cahill was a little bit better was tRA*
5.47 to Mazzaro’s 5.57. There is some reason to think he’s the better bet going forward despite his 2009.
Also Cahill’s FIP fell from about 5.94 to 4.78 from the first half to the second half. Most of that was the result of the decline in HR from 18 to 9, but his HR/FB for the year was around 15% (I’m guessing around 20% in 1H and 10% in 2H), so it’s arguable that his second half is more indicative of this future prospects.
Mazzaro’s FIP jumped from around 3.91 to 6.04 from 1H to 2H, maybe because his injury started to bother him. Maybe not.
For FIP I used the THT formula and 3.20 for the league-specific factor.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2009 9:05 AM PST up reply actions
General comment (not directed at anyone or any comment in particular):
The increasing use of FIP as more than an “interesting look at a peripheral” scares me. If you want to look at how a pitcher performed, you can’t just throw out 2/3 of the data and say “well he had nothing to do with that,” and assess how well he pitched overall based on that stat. You might say “he pitched better/worse than the other stats suggest” but I see folks starting to use it as a lot more than that. Yikes.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Why does FIP scare you?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2009 11:26 AM PST up reply actions
FIP itself doesn't scare me.
People’s use of it sometimes does.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Are you saying it's not a better way to look at pitcher
performance than ERA or W-L? Is there some better way to evaluate pitcher performance that we’re not aware of?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2009 11:39 AM PST up reply actions
Well, W-L is, IMO, pretty worthless altogether
as it rewards/punishes pitchers for hitters’ performances, which clearly have nothing to do with the pitcher. That’s a lot different from “opposing hitters’ performances on pitches you throw that they hit.”
I think ERA, WHIP, GO/AO ratio, K/IP and BB/IP ratios are all insufficient when looked at in a vacuum, but can all be informative when looked at along with one another. Other metrics, like FIP, are fine to look at as well as a peripheral piece to a much more complex whole.
They all — FIP included — tell you something useful but don’t tell you a lot until you look further.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I still don't understand what you're trying to prevent.
What’s wrong with the following statement:
“Zack Greinke had the lowest FIP in the AL among pitchers with enough innings to qualify for the title, and therefore was the most effective pitcher on a per-inning basis than any other AL qualifier.”
What other information do I need to fill in the “more complex whole”?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2009 12:33 PM PST up reply actions
Thing is, your example with Greinke isn't relevant
He also had a kick-ass ERA, a kick-ass WHIP, and so on. FIP just corroborates other metrics there.
But my point is that people often don’t say, “and therefore was the most effective pitcher on a per-inning basis” so much as “Yeah but his FIP was X.yz so he really didn’t pitch well.”
And I don’t think either of those statements is as accurate as “…he certainly showed a strong BB/K ratio, and that’s an important predictor of future performance, plus he kept the ball in the park well.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
That's a poor example.
For the most part, many of the stats, both standard and advanced have an incredibly high degree of correlation. ERA, FIP ; OPS wOBA.
Anyways, back to the example, as I understand it, the purpose of advanced metrics is to reveal what the more basic stats do not. Perhaps player X is undervalued becaue stats X,Y,Z work in his favor. On superstars such as Lincy or Greinke, nearly every stat, standard or advanced will work in favor of arguing his greatness.
IMO, the real point of interest are cases such as Eveland or Cahill where the standard and advanced stats clash, and more creative statistics and or insight is needed to explain the on-field result.
by Pucking Insane on Dec 29, 2009 2:11 PM PST up reply actions
Every stat throws out mounds of data.
Batting average ignores the effect of walks and extra-base hits. ERA doesn’t care about baserunners left on base and much of the contribution of defense. When FIP was created, they decided to try a rather unconventional set of variables. Turns out that it correlates better year-to-year than virtually every other pitching metric out there, making it a far better predictor of future success than other stats like ERA, WHIP, W-L.
Also, FIP doesn’t work by assuming the pitcher had nothing to do with batted balls. FIP simply assumes that all groundballs and flyballs are “worth” the same amount. Then, the equation was algebraically manipulated so that GBs and FBs were excised from the formula (which also explains where they got the funky coefficients). In other words, the contributions of GBs and FBs are still in the equation, but they’re just present in the coefficients.
Falling from grace, cause I've been away too long
Leaving you behind with me, lonesome song
Now I'm lost in oblivion.
by danmerqury on Dec 29, 2009 11:51 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
My own opinion is that what these metrics,
pitching, hitting, and defensive, are lacking is a category between “line drive” and “not line drive” — such as “sharp ground ball” (e.g., would get to the OF in less than X.y seconds) and “looping liner” (e.g., trajectory of X.y or less).
To me, a good metric would incorporate “line drive rate,” “middle ground” rate, and “routine ground ball / routine fly ball rate” into the pitcher’s, batter’s, or fielder’s profile first, before starting to throw out “outcome” as being too luck dependent.
Once metrics appear that separate out three types of hits (line drive, ordinary ground ball / fly ball, something in between) instead of two, I think they will be better.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
We'll have to wait for HitFX for that.
One of the big problems a lot of people have with an otherwise great stat like tRA is that the classifications for GB, LD, and FB depend on whoever’s working at the park that day. When HitFX gets rolled out, we could make specific angle designations that precisely define batted ball classifications.
Falling from grace, cause I've been away too long
Leaving you behind with me, lonesome song
Now I'm lost in oblivion.
At that point, you may see me do a bit of a turnaround
on how much to trust stats. To me it’s currently the main missing piece of the “objective analysis puzzle.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
At that point we will face a new conundrum.
To wit, exactly how finely do you categorize each hit. All of these stats work by categorizing outcomes and assigning an expected run value to each. tRA is presumed to be an improvement on FIP because instead of assigning a single value to all balls in play, it assigns separate values to ground balls, line drives, outfield fly balls, and infield fly balls.
Now Nico is suggesting it would be a further improvement to distinguish shorter ground balls from longer ground balls. OK. What else can we distinguish? With accurate HitFX data, we can — in theory, at least — know the direction and velocity of any ball in play, giving us the option of defining the categories as finely as we like.
But each time we narrow the categories, we weaken the predictive value of our resulting metric. There is a mathematical reason why this is so, but it’s easier to comprehend the problem with a simple thought experiment. Imagine that we pursue refinemet in categorization of batted balls all the way to its absurd extreme. That is, we categorize every batted ball into such a narrow direction-velocity definition that each category has a population of one.
What would be the result? Your run expectancy figure would be identical to the actual runs created in real life. In other words, we’d be right back where we started with old-school stats before anyone modeled expectancies at all.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Of course there is a limit.
Once we find a decent way to measure something, we needle it until we can find a better way to measure. If that way is not better, you pull back. I think you break it down while there is a relevant way to differentiate the separate categories. If the differences are too minor, you don’t break it down that way anymore. The ability to break it down into smaller pieces is great though, because if you can know when and how to recombine them, you may get more relevant answers to your specific questions.
by LoneStranger on Dec 30, 2009 10:14 AM PST up reply actions
And I think expanding the number of
“types of grounders” and “types of fly balls” to all of three each is hardly watering it down.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Oh, I agree that
we’re not yet at the point of diminishing returns, and I agree that it’s never bad to have more data.
I just wanted to illustrate the point, which I think is often ignored by the more casual stat users, that every time you increase the number of factors in your model that comes at a cost. In the case of FIP vs tRA, even if tRA is better over all, it really is less robust. That is, it requires a larger pool of data to have the same level of confidence. And while our data pool is probably plentiful enough that there’s no practical difference, it’s certainly something to keep in mind if and when you start narrowing the sample size for other reasons.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
I think if hitfx is everything I hope it is
We won’t need to use buckets at all.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
hitfx can stop my roof from leaking?
I DO look forward to this most excellent stat!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Thanks, this helps me a lot because I didnt really
understand what that stat was about at all. Now, to take a math class…
I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)
We really do intend to revamp the ANcillary terms soon,
and to add some stat-explanations like the one just offered above. I think I have a new volunteer who will follow through and get it done in the very near future. Stay tuned!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Cahill was legitimately one of the worst SPs in baseball last year.
His stats like ERA and WHIP were okay, but if you delve deeper (FIP, tRA), you’ll see that they were massively luck-inflated. I wouldn’t count on that next year. James’s predictions are more correct in that light.
Please, please take my hand
Please take my soul to rest
So we can always be around
Swell
One of these days, I might be able to understand what those acronyms stand for.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 29, 2009 12:19 AM PST up reply actions
FIP stands for Fielding Independent Pitching
tRA stands for what I’m guessing is either true or theoretical Run Average.
Of course, the literal meanings of the acronyms are not that important. Explanations of tRA can be found here and here.
FIP can be rather easily calculated, and understood, through the formula posted on Wikipedia’s DIPS page. Explanation can be found here.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
by PaulThomas on Dec 29, 2009 12:30 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
1, 2, 3, 4..
FIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIP
I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)
Unless Beane were to sign another vet pitcher
like Bedard, Pinero’, or Tomko. In which case the A’s could start both Cahill and Mazzaro in AAA and save their service time. I would not be against this strategy unless the A’s feel like Cahill or Maz is gonna be able to progress far enough and fast enough to be ready to start in 2010.
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
Hmm
Bedard would be awesome. Pineiro I could be persuaded on at a certain price. Tomko I wouldn’t touch on a ten foot pole. Seriously, what purpose could Tomko have on the 2010 A’s assuming we’re not contending?
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
I'm not sure what purpose he would have if the A's ARE contending
If they aren’t, at least he could provide plausible deniability for sending Trevor Cahill back to AAA.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
This is the only reason I'd consider Tomko
I’d much rather not waste Cahill’s service time with more not-ready bad pitching. Tomko can be just as bad without jeopardizing the future.
Bedard would be better though.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 29, 2009 11:13 AM PST up reply actions
Except he won't be available until around the ASB
We already have Outman for that.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
A healthy Bedard is a lot better than a healthy Outman.
Of course I’ve no idea who will be healthy or better in July 2010.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 29, 2009 11:27 AM PST up reply actions
Which ever one
is more healthy will be more better.
I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)
Except there
is motenson and eveland that can do the same thing that are already on the roster.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
If sole purpose is keeping Cahill in AAA and the A's aren't competing
Give innings to a guy on an upside play. A guy like…Rich Hill or something. If Hill sucks, oh well, the A’s made a high risk-high reward play that missed. You can do that when each win is not vitally important.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Well, I think signing Tomko would be a terrible idea in general
so, I guess I agree with you here.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Agreed. No Tomko, please.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
several people who aren't dead are rolling in their graves right now.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 28, 2009 9:16 PM PST up reply actions
In Soviet Heaven, graves rolling in you.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
They're all athiests. They don't believe in heaven.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 28, 2009 11:11 PM PST up reply actions
That's because heaven doesn't believe in them.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
is that near winter haven in florida
or north haven in CT?
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
Woman: Do you dig graves?
Neil: they’re all right, yeah!
I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)
"You herd cows?"
“Yeah, they go ‘mooooooooooo!!!!’”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Enjoy the trip; then come back and tell me what I should have said…
More boner jokes.
Break out candidate: Gio Gonzalez
Is this the real life-
Is this just fantasy-
Caught in a landslide-
No escape from reality-
Breakout candidates for the A's:
Gio
Barton
Sweeney
Suzuki
Anderson
Cahill
Bailey
Devine
Pennington
Davis
Braden
WHAT IF THEY ALL BREAK OUT?
"This message brought to you by Clearsil!"
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
How much better could Bailey and Devine be than their last full season?!
And yes I’m asking serious questions to obvious sarcastic hyperbole.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
But steroids are bad for you
"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.
by DyeLongJustice on Dec 29, 2009 5:02 AM PST up reply actions
Then it will be much better than if they all just break
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
Which is far more likely to happen
Of course, Chavez leads the Break Candidates list for 2010.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 29, 2009 11:14 AM PST up reply actions
heh, rec'd.
Stewart: "What really needs to be clear is it wouldn't have mattered if there was an earthquake or not. We were going to beat the Giants.


























