Crisp nearing deal with A's
by JPShark on Dec 19, 2009 10:24 PM PST
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PrintFrom MLBTraderumors:
Coco Crisp Nearing Agreement With Athletics By Tim Dierkes [December 20 at 12:14am CST]
Coco Crisp is nearing an agreement with the Athletics on a one-year deal in the $5MM range, MLBTR has learned. The deal will include an option for 2011. Crisp had been talking to the Padres as well, and his agent Steve Comte expected a decision before Christmas.
Crisp, 30, tallied only 215 plate appearances with the Royals this year due to shoulder injuries. He had surgery on both shoulders during the summer and plans to be ready for Spring Training.
Given his salary, Crisp figures to be penciled in as the starting center fielder in Oakland. Scott Hairston, Rajai Davis, and Ryan Sweeney would battle for playing time in the other two spots, unless someone is traded.
Huh?? My guess is one of the other OF's is on their way out for a 3B or SS, but at this point who the hell knows.
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Coco Crisp
He better not be starting.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 19, 2009 10:26 PM PST reply actions
He's being paid $5 million...
I doubt they’d sign him for that much to ride the pine.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
It now seems likely that one or more of the A's current OFs will be traded...
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
Hmm....
Selling high on Davis?
"The A's get some action but they do not score..." -Glen Kuiper
"Anyone who calls themselves the Angels Angels should have to start over and ride the short bus." -timmeh from McCovey Chronicles
I have no idea...
we were told that the A’s would have a quiet off-season. Now it seems like they’re making a move everyday. Who knows what to expect?
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
Yeah, but Beane could be adding cheap assets through FA, and selling the older ones for prospex
"The A's get some action but they do not score..." -Glen Kuiper
"Anyone who calls themselves the Angels Angels should have to start over and ride the short bus." -timmeh from McCovey Chronicles
Could be...
my point was that I don’t think anyone knows what’s going on in Beane’s mind.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
Of course, yeah.
But I don’t think he’s going for it this year.
"The A's get some action but they do not score..." -Glen Kuiper
"Anyone who calls themselves the Angels Angels should have to start over and ride the short bus." -timmeh from McCovey Chronicles
I don't think so either.
But if the A’s sign Crisp for $5 million when there are arguably better CFs already on the roster, you have to think something is up.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
excuse me, but
who on our roster can play cf better than coco? He’s one of the better cf’s in the game. Not sure about his bat, but the guy can cover some ground in the outfield, and he makes splendid acrobatic catches, a la Eric Byrnes.
by sf drift king on Dec 20, 2009 1:56 PM PST up reply actions
Uh
Rajai Davis can.
Ryan Sweeney can probably get pretty close, too, if you believe UZR.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
he said
they were better. pretty close is not better than. i love both sweeney and rajai but coco is the guy i want playing cf if i had to choose btwn all 3.
by sf drift king on Dec 20, 2009 2:26 PM PST up reply actions
At the cost of $5 million?
No thanks. How about, oh, I don’t know, improving a position where the A’s don’t have a ridiculously huge glut of players? That would be nice.
by Joey C. on Dec 20, 2009 7:35 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, not me.
I have no doubt that Davis is better defensively.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 21, 2009 10:45 AM PST up reply actions
apparently
the people signing the check don’t think so..
by sf drift king on Dec 20, 2009 2:26 PM PST up reply actions
Sometimes, I question whether Beane knows what's going on in his mind
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 20, 2009 2:02 PM PST up reply actions
I don't. But I do question whether I know what's going on in his mind.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
At first I read this as "prosex"
which led me to believe you confused Beane for Tiger.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 19, 2009 11:23 PM PST up reply actions
I hope not... sounds like a way to stay in perpetual rebulding mode and never finish building a contender.
Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you. ~Reggie Jackson
I sure hope so
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
That's not selling high on Davis.
Now everybody knows the A’s need to get rid of him.
This is a really stupid signing.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Agree with you on the signing
But we are not being forced to trade Davis so his trade value should be uneffected.
Fuck me
Coco Crisp for $5 mil, but $4 mil for Cust is too much?
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 19, 2009 10:30 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
If this story is true, there must be something else cooking.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
my thoughts exactly
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
That's fine,
but why does Crisp cost $5 mil? This reminds me of when the Giants bid against themselves and gave Bengie Molina 3 years at $6 mil a year.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 19, 2009 11:17 PM PST up reply actions
Crisp is a better player than Cust.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
He was last year (and also in 2007)
OH NO HE DI-INT!
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 21, 2009 4:59 PM PST up reply actions
I can't say I'm happy that Cust was dumped for Coco (seemingly)
But like someone else said in the first, deleted Fanpost, an outfield of Crisp-Davis-Sweeney is just unreal, defensively.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
Yeah that's pretty insane lol
"The A's get some action but they do not score..." -Glen Kuiper
"Anyone who calls themselves the Angels Angels should have to start over and ride the short bus." -timmeh from McCovey Chronicles
And we get 30HR players out of our 3 OFers, 1Bman, and 3Bman
Too bad it’s those five players combined, but…
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
With Buck, Cunningham, and Hairston NOT playing everyday?
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
I count nine outfielders ready or in the show
1. A centerfielder, Rajai Davis
2. A centerfielder, Coco Crisp
3. A corner outfielder, Ryan Sweeney
4. A corner outfielder, Scott Hairston
5. A corner outfielder, Michael Taylor
6. A corner outfielder, Eric Patterson
7. A corner outfielder, Travis Buck
8. A corner outfielder, Chris Carter
9. A corner outfielder, Aaron Cunningham
Okay, Carter is also a first baseman (but the A’s have Barton). Patterson can also play 2B (bleah). Taylor and Carter may not be quite ready.
I think Sweeney would be above average defensively in center too.
I really cannot make any sense of the potential Crisp signing. Even if Davis or Hairston is being traded we have enough OF with actual futures at the club to negate his signing.
I don't think Carter is ready
Patterson is a non-entity in my world. I’m excited to see Taylor, but it won’t kill him to start the season in Sacramento. That leaves 6 guys. They really only need to unload one of them, but you could just stash Buck or Cunningham in AAA, go with 5 ML OFs, and no problems.
I’m actually surprised Patterson is still on the team. I wonder when he gets released.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 20, 2009 10:42 AM PST up reply actions
I think Patterson starts the year on the team.
He’s out of options, right?
In recent years, it seems like the pattern has been that a marginal guy who is out of options is kept on the team to give him one last chance to catch fire. If he does, great. If he doesn’t, he’s a candidate to be released when we need a roster slot. Other marginal guys may be slightly better, but if they’ve got options, they’ll stay in AAA until the talent difference is too big to ignore. Patterson would likely be the 5th OF anyway, right? So why promote someone else just to sit on the bench?
That’s pretty much how it was with Rajai last year, isn’t it?
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Beane isn't the type to give up on player until he has to.
That doesn’t mean he’s going to always give them a shot unless they truly show they deserve one, but it also means he’s not going to haphazardly dump a potentially useful player. So, yeah, pretty much agree with everything you said.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
I'd rather they give a roster spot to Brittany Murphy.
Any at bat Patterson gets is taking one away from somebody either more deserving or more likely to be in Oakland when games matter.
I know he had a fluky couple of weeks to end the season, but I really just think over the course of a full season, Eric Patterson puts up historically bad numbers. I think he’s well below replacement when factoring in his awful defense.
I’d rather see Buck as the 5th OF.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 21, 2009 10:49 AM PST up reply actions
only if she wears the shortest shorts possible.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
way too soon
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
Well, OK
It’s also abysmal offensively…
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Eh, I wouldn't say abysmal.
Davis is a wildcard, obviously, but with Sweeney at a wRC+ around 102-104 and Crisp anywhere between 95 and 100-ish, it’s league-average. Not great, or even good, by any stretch, but mediocre.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
95-100 seems very overoptimistic to me
Between injury, aging, and the fact that he really hasn’t been a good hitter since 2005… not really seeing it. I see the wRC numbers, but they are not lining up for me mentally with his actual hitting lines.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
+1
This move seems really puzzling.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Dec 20, 2009 11:30 AM PST up reply actions
Yes, and it might even provide a whole dozen HR's!!
Somebody’s gotta be on there way out, and my guess is Beane has found someone willing to give something of significance up for Rajai.
Why isn't whoever-it-is just signing Coco Crisp for himself?
I smell wishful thinking.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
This move, if it's true, signals something...
whether it’s another trade or a change in belief as far as when Beane thinks prospects will be ready or what he actually thinks about Buck, Hairston, and Cunningham.
Of course, maybe he hasn’t changed his mind, but is now finally acting on his belief that the other OFs aren’t everyday players.
The more you try figure Beane out, the less you can predict what he’ll do.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
I suspect that Buck has long since fallen out of favor....
…and it’s only a matter of time before we see him in another organization.
Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you. ~Reggie Jackson
I dunno.
Maybe, but I find it hard to believe that with the left side of the infield completely in question Beane just decided to stockpile OF’s without a move or two on the horizon. The LAST thing we needed was yet another OF’r. Just doesn’t make sense unless someone is on the move.
I'm kinda surprised the Angels aren't in on Crisp. Their OF defense is terrible with both
Abreu and Rivera.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 19, 2009 10:50 PM PST up reply actions
I agree
Signing him, for them, made sense until they committed a bundle of money to Matsui.
For the A’s, it just confuses what’s already a deeply confused outfield picture.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Davis for Kouzmanoff
get on board, PT.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
So why exactly are the Padres supposed to make themselves worse in both the short and long term for our benefit?
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
They're dumb?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Disagree
Rivera was not terrible last year (statistically a good LF), and Hunter was average. Abreu was terrible.
OF defense doesn’t seem to be that huge a concern for the Angels and thy won the division lat year without it.
Outside of that they have GMJr and Reggie Willits as 4th and 5th OF. With Terry Evans and Chris Petit looking to muscle in as replacement level prospects (Petit was a B- on Jon Sickels prospect list this year).
They also signed Matsui to DH (replace Vlad) to a 6.5 million deal (only 1.5million more than what the A’s paid for Crisp).
by TheQuestforMerlin on Dec 20, 2009 1:22 AM PST up reply actions
exactly
I mean, I suppose you could make the argument that Rajai Davis can and should be a better player than Coco Crisp, but for all intents and purposes, they are the same player. The only reason I can think of that a team would trade for Davis instead of just signing Crisp is if they are incredibly cash poor and can’t splurge for the 4-6 million it apparently took to sign Crisp. That would leave Marlins, Royals, Twins, Padres, and maybe the Tigers in the mix. Of those teams, the Tigers just traded away their starting CF, the twins have a better option already in house, the Royals seem content in playing DeJesus for ever in CF….I dunno, I agree with PT, this seems like wishful thinking to me.
by oakballnack on Dec 20, 2009 12:30 PM PST up reply actions
An offense that includes all three is the exact opposite of that
It’s like Jeremy Giambi’s evil twin come to torture us.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 19, 2009 10:44 PM PST up reply actions
I thought Jeremy WAS the evil twin.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 8:49 AM PST up reply actions
grover, kicking in the collective PTSD.
thanks, furry little buddy.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 9:06 AM PST up reply actions
I can see the future
“What? How did we lose so many games with three +4 WAR players in the OF?”
Oh, because those defense metrics are largely skewed with its importance, as scoring runs is actually more important than preventing runs.
If you do the best job preventing runs then you still can tie if your team doesnt score.
If you do the best job at scoring runs you win the game, every time.
LOGICAL! lol
Wrong...
If you score more runs than your opponent you win the game, every time… whether that’s 1-0 or 11-10.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
do you even read?
“If you do the best job at scoring runs you win the game, every time.”
“If you score more runs than your opponent you win the game, every time… whether that’s 1-0 or 11-10.”
THESE MEAN THE EXACT SAME THING. ugh, smh.
maybe one team does a good job scoring 10
while the other team does a lousy job scoring 11?
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
depends where the base line, I suppose.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 8:50 AM PST up reply actions
He means that the best way to win a game is to score more runs than your opponent...
Either through run creation or run prevention. Doesn’t matter which.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
One thing I do believe, regarding 11-10 vs. 1-0,
is that it’s easier to control your fate in a lower scoring game than in a slugfest. If you play a lot of 3-2 type games, there are clear opportunities to try to preserve a lead (by making it harder for either team to score — defensive changes, deep bullpen), but in a see-saw slugfest it’s a little more of a free-for-all and your pitching sucks.
Bottom line is that I think it’s harder to sustain success as a team that scores and gives up a lot of runs than it is as a team that scores and gives up few runs. Texas would probably agree.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Dec 20, 2009 9:40 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
More good players come into play in a low scoring game, IMO.
i.e. good pitching AND good defense, rather than just a shitload of offense.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Yup. In an 11-10 game, things are decided by your worst relievers.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
That's definitely fair.
Besides, I think I’d tear my hair out with the bullpen a 11-10 team would have.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
This theory would be very easy to test.
Plot the (absolute) differential between pythagorean record and actual W-L against sum of runs scored and runs against.
All those numbers are easy to obtain, and you’d have a pretty big sample with all the teams over many (all?) years.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Another point:
It’s easier for the other team to control its destiny in a low-scoring game, too.
This is the same idea as what someone pointed out in Paul’s FanShot about the value of slugging with respect to the Pythagorean record: Being more consistent is only a good thing if you’re actually better. If your team really is worse than most of the teams it plays, it’s not to your advantage to reduce randomness.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
i was thinking it enabled a good offense/bad defense corner outfielder
with 2 CF’s on the field, this could offset a Cust over there in the corner. but that isn’t going to happen now. so I’m confused about the cereal player signing. perhaps he’s being set up for a platoon role.
by rollierollieOxenfree on Dec 20, 2009 3:53 PM PST up reply actions
-1
"The A's get some action but they do not score..." -Glen Kuiper
"Anyone who calls themselves the Angels Angels should have to start over and ride the short bus." -timmeh from McCovey Chronicles
Ugh, do we really have to do this again?
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
It's a long off-season.
I can’t wait til last January when we collectively decide it’s all Nico’s fault and the PT is the root of all that is evil.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 8:51 AM PST up reply actions
last = late
stupid LB brain.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 8:52 AM PST up reply actions
I thought you really had something there
until you ruined it with this comment. There was time travel, there was evil, there was rooting, there was Nico’s fault. Think of the earth quakes that could be caused by that!! Now without the time travel, it’s pretty pedestrian.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
I am shamed.
I will go commit sepakura now.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 9:07 AM PST up reply actions
I much rather you commit Harry Carry
Put on some crazy ugly glasses and sing “Take me out to the ball game” really loud and really poorly over a stadium loudspeaker.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
Hey, right field!
This Bud’s for you!
HC used to call the game from the bleachers about three or four times a year. He’d usually be too drunk to call the game by the fourth inning or so and Steve Stone’d have to do the rest of the game by himself.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 9:24 AM PST up reply actions
What inning did Steve get stoned in?
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
I'm fairly certain he was always stone.
And to more recent events, to work with Hawk, you’d have to be.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 10:44 AM PST up reply actions
I think you have to be comatose to work with Hawk
That or dead, is he dead?
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
Harry may have killed him and eaten him in a drunken stupor in 1989.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 4:51 PM PST up reply actions
On the plus side,
it makes you less in danger from zombies.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
true.
stupid brain = less delicious?
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 9:24 AM PST up reply actions
That, and so much work to get to it
for so little reward.
Unlike this guy:
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Personally, I don't mind as long as it's not made of Government Cheese.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
you're too young to have had the government cheese.
It was essentially generic Velveeta.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 10:45 AM PST up reply actions
It was actually pretty damn good.
Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you. ~Reggie Jackson
mmm, depends how much you had to eat.
I kinda got a little tired of it.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 1:10 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, but that goes with anything.
As inconceivable as it sounds, even pizza and Ben & Jerry’s ice cream would get old after awhile.
Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you. ~Reggie Jackson
pizza gets old after divurticulitis.
but other than that, not so much.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 4:52 PM PST up reply actions
government peanuts, government shortening
neither of which were too much to taste.
by rollierollieOxenfree on Dec 20, 2009 3:55 PM PST up reply actions
it's always Nico's fault.
"Did you know you can comment on Athletics Nation from your phone or PDA? SB Nation has launched mobile commenting. Check it out next time you’re at the game or bar and have something to say."
by stranahanahan on Dec 20, 2009 10:00 AM PST up reply actions
that's the way!
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 10:45 AM PST up reply actions
That, incidentally, is the origin of the word
“scapegoat”.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
CONSPIRACY!
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 10:55 AM PST up reply actions
yup, and they all point to...
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 10:57 AM PST up reply actions
might be.
(pst…meet me behind the bakery at midnight—-the password is “No Blood for Goats”)
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 10:58 AM PST up reply actions
Oh my God, that is a F***ing A trade!!!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
(that'd probably get you past 67M, too...)
(…especially if he were eating a croissant at the time…)
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 11:06 AM PST up reply actions
I always thought it was "scrapegoat"
I guess that’s one more activity to cross off my list.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Or what you do after you inadvertently hit one with your car.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
I would not, could not with a goat
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
A run saved = a run scored
That’s really all this discussion needs. If you don’t agree with that, nobody will ever be able to have a real conversation on player value.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 19, 2009 11:25 PM PST up reply actions
ZOMG YOU CAN'T WIN A GAME 0-0
(that’s probably his response)
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Probably.
Except if you score 1 run in a 0-0 game, you win. If you give up 1 run in a 0-0 game, you lose. That seems pretty equal to me.
You can’t lose a game 0-0 either.
(There, got that out of the way before he could respond)
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 19, 2009 11:29 PM PST up reply actions
Oh I know.
I’m pretty sure that guy went around and around with people on defensive value while you were on hiatus.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
This is that whole "envelope paradox" all over again, isn't it
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
have you watched an A's game before?
WE HAVE SWEET PITCHING.
WE HAVE GOOD D.
WE DONT HIT.
Therefore, we lose. Therefore, fangraphs OF defensive metrics are nowhere near as important as they appear to be.
Pretty much.
Perhaps why the metrics say we “should have” won 81 games last year. Guess what? We didn’t. Exact same thing happened the previous two years, too.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Actually, the A's did not have good D in 2009
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
And the SP was bad as often as it was good as well
Having an excellent bullpen alone isn’t going to win you many titles.
on the other hand, they had Adam Kennedy playing.
quite a lot.
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
...and Jason Giambi...
and Orlando Cabrera having by far the worst season of his career… and Mark Ellis having an off year…
The A’s infield was terribly weak defensively last year, more than making up for a strong outfield.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Ugh.
Look, you’ve made this claim up and down this thread a thousand times. So prove it! All you’re doing is saying that WAR overrates defensive numbers without providing any reasoning or evidence. Anyone can make baseless assertions, but if you want to be taken with any amount of seriousness, you’re going to have to do better than that.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
A discussion for another time but...
A run scored is a much more tangible and definitive run than a run prevented. We know that eventually we’ll be able to make the defensive metrics even more precise by adding more data to the equation (specifically batted ball velocity and trajectory) but that’s a year or three down the road.
I think the run saved = run scored equation works as long as the discussing parties agree that the numbers are “close enough” but I think that there’s enough gray area in the summing up of the defensive numbers that if a person didn’t want to accept the rounding up of defensive runs than they’d have some basis for disagreement.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Dec 20, 2009 8:09 AM PST up reply actions 4 recs
...is the penny saved is a penny earned thing still true?
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 8:53 AM PST up reply actions
Never was
A penny saved is a penny already earned and shouldn’t be double counted. Certainly not unless you’ve got one killer of an interest rate for savings.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
I think the point of the saying
is not “a penny deposited in a bank account marked ‘savings’ is a penny earned,” but rather “a penny not spent on something frivolous that you’ll regret as soon as you get home from shopping is a penny earned.”
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Well sure
if you want to get all technical. I prefer to get a little more literal. Sometimes. Maybe not.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
is sandly anything like lordly?
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 10:46 AM PST up reply actions
Are you referring to your 201(k)?
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Hey, that's Bobby Crosby's batting average
and the way he just got out!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
So just regress defensive numbers more heavily to the mean...
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
And doesn't that strike you as a slightly larger hurdle to clear?
We’ve gone from the simplicity of “a run saved = a run earned” to re-doing the math and disagreeing with the Fangrpahs based logic of another poster. How are you going to get Fangraphs guy to agree to chuck their numbers for those of the other guy? Both sides need to agree on what the actual numbers are and both sides have compelling enough arguments to stick by their numbers.
And don’t forget the joys of trying to regress the defensive numbers of a rookie or a 2nd year player!
The monster at the end of this blog.
Oh come on, I'm not talking about regression that would pass muster with the American Conference of Statisticians
Doing eyeball regression is not very difficult and should be a skill in any baseball blog poster’s arsenal.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
And how do you propose to get both sides to agree on the regressed number?
How many times have you been willing to come down off a projection when the difference between what was written vs. what is regressed was enough to cut into your position?
I’m not saying it’s impossible. I’m saying it’s not simple.
The monster at the end of this blog.
I don't think we're talking about
agreeing on some newly calculated number here.
I think we’re talking about something like:
—"Ryan Sweeney was 4.1 WAR last year."
—"True, but most of that was defense, so you have to keep that in mind."
—"Yeah, good point."
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
That's a different argument
It’s very, very valid to argue that we can’t trust the defensive numbers yet. But that isn’t what PL78 was saying.
He flat-out said scoring a run is more important/valuable than preventing one. That’s just not true.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 20, 2009 10:44 AM PST up reply actions
yes and no
Scoring is the most important thing to do, but preventing is also important. I believe scoring runs is the most important, its the point of the game. Its first. Preventing is second, but you need it as bad. Both still need to be done.
But if scoring is the most important point of the game,
then isn’t it equally important to stop your opponent from doing the most important thing they could do to win?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
yes thats the point
Ive just sat through too many years of “look how rad our defense and pitching is!” as we lose 2-1 again. I want mashers at LF, RF and 1B. We havent really gotten it in recent years.
However, things are looking up in that regard in the way of Carter&Taylor :)
If you're arguing scoring runs is more ENTERTAINING than preventing,
then I totally agree. More important though? Tougher argument.
Remember you can’t win without scoring a run. But you can’t lose if you prevent the other team from scoring a run.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
A good defensive play can be very entertaining
but it happens less often than a run scoring.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
If a run scored equaled 1
and a run prevented (as best we can count) equaled .99 than the run scored would be more valuable. True, it wouldn’t play out until you looked at the season ending totals but based on the the difference I offered you’d be looking at a 10 run difference per 1000 runs.
There’s enough gray area in the defensive metrics that someone might be able to argue a wider gap between run prevention and run scoring.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Defensive metrics aren't needed in this equation
We already know exactly how many runs were scored and yielded at a team level. You don’t need to break it down to the level of individual players to know if a run scored and a run saved are equal or not. The pythagorean formula should be sufficient.
Let’s say we have a team that scores and allows exactly 4 runs per game, in a league that also scores and allows 4 runs per game. That’s a .500 team. And let’s say we have a choice: add a player who is average offensively and saves 1 run every 10 games, or add a player who is average defensively and adds 1 run every 10 games.
Choice 1 gives us 648 runs scored, 632 runs allowed. Choice 2 gives us 664 runs scored, 648 runs allowed. The pythagorean expected winning percentage with Choice 1 is .5125. The expected winning percentage with Choice 2 is .5122. So in this example, a run saved is worth more than a run scored, but the difference is about one win every 20 years, so small that you might as well consider them equal.
by kenarneson on Dec 20, 2009 1:10 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
But how were those runs prevented?
Was it because of the great defensive play of the infield and outfield or because the pitching staff struck out so many guys?
The monster at the end of this blog.
Doesn't matter
If the question we’re asking is, “is a run prevented worth the same as a run scored?”, then how the run was prevented doesn’t change how much the prevented run was worth.
Now, maybe you’re trying to ask a different question, like, “Do defensive metrics divide credit for run prevention between pitcher and defense properly?” That’s a more difficult question. If we say “Coco Crisp is +19 in CF”, will our runs allowed really go down by 19 runs over our previous, average centerfielder?
That’s where you’d be a bit less certain of your prediction than if you were adding a +19 offensive player. The offensive stats are more reliable. A run saved is worth a run scored, but a run scored is a more easily predictable thing than a run saved.
PL78 runs don't equal comment was tied directly to defensive metrics
Therefore, how the runs were prevented matter.
The monster at the end of this blog.
yeah. the big tipping point for me in this debate has always been protecting your pitching staff
Great defense = less pitches thrown = less taxing/abuse of your SPs = less injuries and attrition of your pitching staff.
That’s a tangible benefit of picking the defensive player over the offensive player, all else being equal.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Dec 20, 2009 3:49 PM PST up reply actions
Is it fair to say that that great defense = less pitches thrown?
The pitcher has a lot more to do with that, IMO.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 20, 2009 3:55 PM PST up reply actions
well of course, the pitcher is the most important variable.
We’re assuming the same pitching staff with either a bad-fielding, great-hitting defense behind him, or a great-fielding, bad-hitting offense (“all else being equal”).
The most physically taxing innings for a pitcher are the ones in which he throws 20 pitches or more. Let’s say he gets the first out, allows a runner to reach, then there’s a grounder to Kennedy at third. Kennedy airmails the throw on a tailor-made double-play ball. Instead of the inning ending after ~10 pitches, the pitcher is in a stressful, one-out and two runners on situation. He’s now likely to suffer through one of those taxing, 20+ pitch innings. That means his outing is going to be shorter.
On very bad defensive teams – due to both lack of range and errors – these types of situations play out often enough to put a lot of extra stress upon a pitching staff.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Dec 20, 2009 4:40 PM PST up reply actions
Again, whether or not the metrics are any good at all is irrelevant
You can certainly argue we can’t measure defense well enough yet, but there’s just no good argument for how scoring a run is more valuable than preventing a run. “Because quantifying defensive contribution is too hard” is not a good reason for offensive runs being somehow better.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 21, 2009 10:56 AM PST up reply actions
How do you know when a run scores?
Someone steps on home plate.
How do you know when a defender plays at a high enough level to be considered an asset at run prevention?
The monster at the end of this blog.
I guess we could say that offensive runs are currently better only because we can calculate them with a greater reliablility.
Defensive runs are just as important, but it’s a lot harder to judge those things. The outfielder gets to the bloop single and the existing runner stops at third. Did he stop because he’s not a great runner or because the outfielder has a great arm or got a good jump on the ball?
by LoneStranger on Dec 22, 2009 8:35 AM PST up reply actions
Now all we need is three +4 WAR outfielders!
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
Beane is a ninja
$5mill?? Oh well, get over it. They had to overpay him just to get him to play in this dump stadium. Beane has liked crisp for yrs and i dont think a fluke 3 months of rajai will change his mind. Now Beane has 4 passable CF types in Crisp, Rajai, Hairston, and Sweeney. When there is a CF market with freakin podsednik, byrd. I expect beane to cash in one of the CF’s in a trade for something useful now.
First the trade for Taylor, the future LF/RF for the A's. Then Coco Crisp..
It definitely looks like a big trade is in the works.
Does anyone know what team needs a good CF and maybe a LF/CF to add to that?
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
SSS and all
But in the few games Hairston played CF for Oakland (before he got hurt, I might add), he looked like one of the worst defensive CF I have ever seen. It seemed like once or twice a game he would run the wrong way on a fly ball.
I really hope Hairston is the guy moved out. I just don’t buy him as anything more than a platoon guy, especially in this park and in the AL. His numbers support that thought, too.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 19, 2009 11:27 PM PST up reply actions
I don't think Hairston belongs in CF at all.
But he did seem to make some boneheaded plays, that’s for sure.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Yeah, CF is for people like Jason Bay
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
Do you think?
MaGIcK MiKe, that saying this over and over again will make it true (about the coli interfering with the A’s ability to sign FA’s) or does it give you warmth and comfort during the cold and dark times?
I get it you don’t like the Oakland Coliseum. But that is where the Oakland A’s play buddy.
"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King
by Buck Turgidson on Dec 20, 2009 8:32 AM PST up reply actions
it doesn't necessarily
mean he is wrong though.
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
I personally like the Coli.
But, if you’d like to see a dump of a stadium, there’s one up the road about 45 minutes that makes the Coliseum look like heaven.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 8:56 AM PST up reply actions
The Tracie Municiple Racetrack?
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
That would be preferable.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 9:09 AM PST up reply actions
oh, up the road from you, gotcha.
still, all the joys of Redding and Tracie can soon be yours
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
don't forget Lodi!
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 9:25 AM PST up reply actions
Names that resonate through the vaults of heaven
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
It looks like you're peeking inside
a large magic mollusk.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
it's...
a strange place.
Prior to last season, it was ridiculously depressing. They’ve retired Wade Boggs’ number, for chrissakes…
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 9:25 AM PST up reply actions
I told you to stay out of my back yard.
I’m totally calling the cops and have my shotgun cocked. There aren’t any bullets in it, I just like the sound it makes.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
me and G-S are in the bushes, waiting for you to take out the trash.
Hurry up. We’re hungry.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 9:08 AM PST up reply actions
2 yr/4mill+ for caroll or 1yr/5mill for crisp
I’d take crisp
I'd take Cust
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 19, 2009 10:45 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
what does Bill James and the like predict for Cust and Crisp?
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
Good offense / shit defense, vs so-so offense / great defense
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
So doesn't it seem like Crisp would be better?
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
Depends on if Cust's regression is temporary or permanent
Good point, though…
Cust last year was +1.0 WAR. Crisp SUCKED offensively, but was still +1.2 WAR. Career-wise, Crisp’s WARs have been so inconsistent it’s hard to get a read on his actual value. He’s put up 1.2, 0.8, 3.8, 0.9, and 4.8 the past five years.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 19, 2009 11:05 PM PST up reply actions
I don't mind swapping Crisp for Cust...
But I really DO mind keeping Buck and Cunningham in AAA for another entire year.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
Buck probably is done here
But I fully expect him to thrive somewhere. He’s just far too talented, and the A’s have treated him so poorly.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 19, 2009 11:30 PM PST up reply actions
I wish Buck well wherever he goes
but I just don’t buy this idea that the A’s have mistreated him. OK, so maybe he didn’t get consistent ABs in the big leagues. So what? He’s had ample opportunities in Sacramento. If he’s so talented, why didn’t he tear up AAA when he was there? Patterson did. Cunningham did. Everidge did.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
I think many of us are biased by his beauty.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
agrd.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 8:57 AM PST up reply actions
Yep. Alot of man-crushes going on w/Buck.
Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you. ~Reggie Jackson
LOL... point taken.
I gotta admit, I think he’s a good lookin’ guy. Shoot, I wish I was half as good looking as he is. I’d have women all over me like that guy in the chocolate Axe commercial. He has the whole “dime store romance novel cover” look without the smarminess and shallowness of Fabio.
Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you. ~Reggie Jackson
They really haven't
He’s played horribly the last two seasons, on the comparatively rare occasions when he’s actually been on the field.
The way they “dealt with” the concussion issue was idiotic, of course, but really nothing out of the ordinary in the testosterone-addled world of sports “medicine”.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
I think any time he or Cunningham were called up
to sit on the bench in favor of clearly worse players was “treating them poorly.”
That’s just not a good way to develop a hitting prospect.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 20, 2009 10:46 AM PST up reply actions
Who were the "clearly worse players"?
Don’t say Patterson, who’s hit far better than Buck the last two seasons.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
When it comes to Buck
Some people prefer to remember his rookie season when he was good. Before ML pitchers had a book on him. Since then, he has not been impressive in the bigs.
@worldblee on Twitter.
Or really anywhere.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
and he was unusually good against left handers that year...not something he had repeated in the minors.
that makes his stats a fluke to me.
i know lefty/righty splits are not to be trusted but in this case they highlight why his #s were inflated in one very positive year.
I think you mean Cust's decline
“Regression” has a specific meaning in stats talk, which doesn’t seem to fit here.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
No, his numbers have regressed
but it’s not regression to the mean
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
OK, so what have his numbers regressed to then?
Not his career average.
To regress is to return to a previous state. Was Cust previously bad, so that regression means getting worse?
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
well he wasnt "good enough" beforehand
to stick in the majors, so i guess there is something to regress to. i do get your point though.
It also means to go back.
as in his numbers were going backwards
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
So in your mind,
decrease equals backward and increase equals forward?
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
I think it's more "improve" equals forward
“get worse” equals backwards
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
That's a cultural bias.
In the middle ages it would have been the reverse.
But then, it seems like cultures rarely recognize their own decline until it’s well under way.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Funny you said that the day after the Chronicle front page
said that earth appears to be on its way to extinction, but congress still can’t agree on a plan to address “climate change.”
I think Beane should trade earth for Longoria.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Has Mars ever been more valuable?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
yes.
but it could not get insurance.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 11:44 AM PST up reply actions
I would totally
offer them insurance on that one. I mean, if the earth blows up or something, I’d like to see them try to collect on their policy.
No one will have the endurance
to collect on his insurance.
Lloyd’s of London will be loaded
when we go.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
easy, Tom.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 21, 2009 10:55 AM PST up reply actions
Merriam-Webster:
2 : movement backward to a previous and especially worse or more primitive state or condition
That one
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 21, 2009 5:11 PM PST up reply actions
So yes, to the condition of "not good enough to be in the big leagues"
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 21, 2009 5:11 PM PST up reply actions
Sounds like a good reason to not build a team based on defensive value.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Not seeing the "great" part in the fielding projections
The ones I’m looking at say “a few runs above average.”
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
I think Fenway does screwy things to UZR
I don’t think UZR knows how to handle Fenway correctly. Instead of 3 years to get a decent sample size, you might need six at Fenway. Both Crisp and Ellsbury have seen gigantic swings in value from one year to the next. In Boston, Crisp bounce from +1 to +22 to -15, while Ellsbury has now gone from +7 to -18.
I think it’s possible he’s a great CF, but there’s too much noise to see clearly. He was +20 in KC last year, but again, small sample size, because he got hurt.
I think people are biased by sports center
Crisp made a ton of highlight reel plays while in boston. I saw several in person. He clearly makes plays that others don’t. But that doesn’t actually make him a great fielder. That plus injuries make this signing puzzling.
The A's. The SWINGING A's. That's right, the SWINGING A's.
by eastcoasta'sfan on Dec 20, 2009 7:45 AM PST up reply actions
sounds like T-Long and Eric Brynes
made some highlight reel catches, but they weren’t that great overall.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
oh how rad so like how every 09 playoff team had a terrrible defender
if we have sweet defenders in the OF, yet still no hitting we end up an also-ran at best.
OF defense metrics dont really work, huh?
Your logic is fucking horrid.
Do you realize that IN ADDITION to being a bad defender, they were fucking AWESOME hitters?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
A team consists of 25 players.
The outfield makes up three. You can be a good baseball player without being great defensively. Shall I go on?
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
doesn't make much sense to me
At 5 million I don’t feel the need to get worked up over it, but we have quite enough outfielders: Davis, Sweeney, Taylor, Cunningham, Buck, Hairston.
I could care less about Hairston, and hopefully he gets traded now, but I don’t see how Crisp is a significant upgrade over Davis. Taylor should start in the next year, and I’m not prepared to give up on Cunningham or Buck. Sweeney is a pretty solid regular already, and he’s only 25.
Not really
Buck/Cunningham/Taylor is more likely to be in AAA, than starting the season with the A’s.
Beane flat out said Hairston needs to improve off what he showed last yr. Not a great endorsement for him, I bet he’s the one being shopped at the moment.
Davis was fun to watch, but realistically it was only 3 months. Beane has pursued crisp going back 3 or 4yrs now. Padres were offering around 4 mill so its not a huge gap in offers
by MagicMike23 on Dec 19, 2009 10:57 PM PST up reply actions
Didn't Beane just say something about this year being the year for the youngsters?
Wouldn’t a reasonable person then assume that Cunningham and Buck would finally get their full chance?
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
Maybe he thought Coco was a youngster.
How many old people are named Coco? Chanel?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 19, 2009 11:03 PM PST up reply actions
Coco Montoya is 50-something
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Wait,
was that the host of Fantasy Island or the guy looking for the six-fingered man who killed his father?
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 8:58 AM PST up reply actions
Hi, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father.
Prepare to die.
by LoneStranger on Dec 20, 2009 9:41 PM PST up reply actions
What's wrong with this place
that the only one who has heard of a blues guitarist is me? I don’t even like guitars.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
is that Travis Tritt?
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 21, 2009 10:55 AM PST up reply actions
Don't break my heart, 9Custs.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 21, 2009 7:46 PM PST up reply actions
It's Coco Montoya.
You can tell because he’s playing upside-down.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
That's not Jimi?
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
Buck is done here, i've accepted that
Cunningham they didnt call up in sept despite a decent season. I would love if they just gave their OF prospects a shot, but the hairston, taylor, and now crisp signing does nothing to help the situation of the other OFs
by MagicMike23 on Dec 19, 2009 11:04 PM PST up reply actions
Right...
Unless there’s another move coming.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
It must be in the works, then...
Having this glut of OF definitely does not strengthen Beane’s leverage in a trade offer.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 19, 2009 11:06 PM PST up reply actions
Not exactly
Worst case they could have a starting OF hairston, crisp, sweeney. Rajai reverts to his 4th OF spot. Taylor, CUnningham, and others back in AAA. The only one with an issue is Patterson with no milb options left. With a cf market when pierre was tradeable, ankiel/byrd/podsednik asking for decent money, and suddenly brett gardner/melky getting some trade interest. I think they’ll at least explore some trade talks with their other OFs
by MagicMike23 on Dec 19, 2009 11:18 PM PST up reply actions
Why is Buck done all of a sudden
and not Barton? Everyone has Barton penciled in as the starting first baseman, but Buck is out in the cold. Perhaps this is just people thinking into the mind of Beane, but I’m not ready to give up on either. Granted, Barton was a better prospect than Buck, but it’s still interesting.
rebuildingseason.blogspot.com
by Rebuilding Season on Dec 20, 2009 1:38 AM PST up reply actions
Barton hit well in 2009
Buck was horrible in 2009. That makes a difference…
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Buck hit well in his last 20 games
On September 11, after 34 games (20 of which were complete games) he was still slashing 215/321/366. He also hit zero home runs after that date, and even though I know he doesn’t project for power, that’s a little sketch. I mean, after that date, his BA/OBP/SLG all rose around 50 points…doesn’t that just mean balls were falling better? Furthermore, in AAA over the course of the year, his SLG was pumped up by 9 home runs over the course of 70 games, which would equate to roughly 20 over a full season (which I’m thinking he’s not capable of in the Majors.) I’m not ready to call Barton’s season inspiring by any means, while Buck is relegated to pre-2009 Grant Desme status in limbo.
rebuildingseason.blogspot.com
by Rebuilding Season on Dec 20, 2009 1:55 AM PST up reply actions
Huh?
I get that the first Buck is supposed to be Barton, but that still leaves a post full of statistical prestidigitation performed on a sample which was already on the small side to begin with.
You can’t do that. Dissecting a player’s hitting line into smaller and smaller splits and then finding a few that you don’t like is not a valid means of critiquing his performance.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Would you prefer I take the entirety of their years?
With Barton splitting time between four different levels, and Buck two? Not to mention the fact that Buck was hit with injuries and rumored doghouseishness. I realize that both of the lines I gave were small sample sizes, but I think the only span where Barton hit well consistently is a small sample size as well. I find it hard to try and take a whole year at its face value when there was so much shuffling going on. Sure, I’d like to take a bigger sample size, but I don’t know how to get it.
Yes, Barton’s line over the entire year was better than Buck’s. I also feel that Buck is a good enough player that he can turn it around—his OPS over the entirety of his career in the Minors is better than Barton’s, plus he’s a more gifted athlete naturally with a higher ceiling.
rebuildingseason.blogspot.com
by Rebuilding Season on Dec 20, 2009 2:40 PM PST up reply actions
Well, now that you mention it, yes, I would prefer you took the entirety of their years...
although I think you can safely leave out the tiny rehab stints.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Fair enough, Barton was better last year than Buck
rebuildingseason.blogspot.com
by Rebuilding Season on Dec 20, 2009 5:12 PM PST up reply actions
career minor-league OPS...
this can be deceiving when you’re comparing a player who started pro ball at 18 with a player who played three years of college ball.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Dec 20, 2009 3:52 PM PST up reply actions
He was pretty solidly above average.
wRC+ of 112.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
Too bad we didn't trade to get Bradley back.... then we could have had a game to play with our cereal
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
They played together on the Indians in 02-03.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 19, 2009 11:32 PM PST up reply actions
Dur hur, Cap'n Crunch Cap'n Crunch
Cooooooooooooooookie Crisp!
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 19, 2009 11:07 PM PST up reply actions
All I know is if people are gonna get any playing time in this crowded outfield
they better eat their Wheaties.
rebuildingseason.blogspot.com
by Rebuilding Season on Dec 20, 2009 1:39 AM PST up reply actions
At least Cocoa Krispies
are vegan, which is more than I can say for the rest of the turkeys on this team!
(Oh, come on. That was good!)
The artist formerly known as HigherPie.
Cocoa Krispies are good.
But Cocoa Pebbles and Fruity Pebbles are the MFing bomb!
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 8:59 AM PST up reply actions
Sign Coco Pebble now!
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Looks like Beane's not too keen on hairston anymore.
by ElQuesoCapitan on Dec 19, 2009 10:57 PM PST reply actions
Giants would love this guy
No patience, hits in their park…Sabean must have a boner just thinking about Hairston in black and orange. Make it happen, Billy! Hairston for the rest of their farm system!
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 19, 2009 11:29 PM PST up reply actions
Hairston for Posey!
it’s a deal!
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
"Sabean must have a boner just thinking about Hairston in black and orange."
Fabulous!:)
Well who do the Giants have that we’d be even remotely interested in? They’re not giving Beane anything he really wants. I’d take Sanchez but that means they would want more than Hairston.
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
I'm sure we can think of more Giants-y players to give them
Think players with high AVG but low OBP.
Think players with speed that can’t get on base.
Think “versatile” players that don’t suck at any position, but don’t excel at one either.
Think “gamers”.
Think Eric Patterson.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 21, 2009 5:14 PM PST up reply actions
Coco Crisp
well at least they’re getting a guy who always stays healty….oh wait uh well at least they’re getting a guy with power….uh…..hmm well he is a delicious cereal.
I can think of some better veterans (uh Jack Cust?)
I don’t know on the face of it I really don’t like this move. Isn’t Davis the same type of player? I’m finding this off-season to be confusing so far.
The A's have a spot open on the 40 man roster, right?
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
Uhh... Why?
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
Team still in the market for CF/OF's
Cubs
White Sox
Padres
Giants (they are talking about podsednik)
Now that Crisp may be off the market... perhaps the Padres will give up something of value for Davis who is a similar player.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
Padres have a truckload of 3b
Kouzmanoff
Headley
Antonelli
Forsythe
Darnell
by MagicMike23 on Dec 19, 2009 11:22 PM PST up reply actions
Davis for Kouz straight up?
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
yesplz
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
ZOMG YOU WOULD HATE KOUZ HE IS ALL DEFENSE NO BAT
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Go for Headley.
He’s been one of my main 3B targets for years. Offer more to get Headley, rather than getting Kouzmanoff and not really solving anything.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Getting Headley has been one of my targets for years, too.
Oh.. you said HeadLEY
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
BJs are freely available
Ryan and Upton could be had.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
FREE?!?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
nobody rides for free.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 10:48 AM PST up reply actions
But you're about 5 years too late
on Surhoff
"Did you know you can comment on Athletics Nation from your phone or PDA? SB Nation has launched mobile commenting. Check it out next time you’re at the game or bar and have something to say."
by stranahanahan on Dec 20, 2009 10:05 AM PST up reply actions
I get so sick of the use of this mock type
It’s such a five-year-old way to belittle people that express an opinion that isn’t grounded in wRC or whatever the statistical acronym du jour happens to be.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
What the fuck does mikev's post have to do with wRC?
He just noted and made fun of inconsistent reasoning.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Thanks for being deliberatly obstinate.
Like its inclusion or non-inclusion of wRC makes it any better.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
“Your honor, the defendant killed the victim with malice aforethought and should be found guilty of murder.”
“The defendant didn’t kill anyone!”
“Well, but he had malice aforethought— like the inclusion or non-inclusion of ‘killing’ makes it any better.”
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Wow, you really don't get it?
I object to the five-year-old way in which the stat-minded people belittle people who express opinions not expressly grounded in a statistical measure by using the typeface “ZOMG YOU WOULD HATE KOUZ HE IS ALL DEFENSE NO BAT.”
If you really want to fixate on it being used to point out “an inconsistency in reasoning” in this case, God help you. It’s as annoying in either case.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Dec 20, 2009 10:33 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Good post
I am a huge stat guy, and I find myself becoming more and more of an anti-stat guy when I read this website: because I see that arrogance and condescending behavior are apparently now required to be a stat guy.
Wish this blog became a little more respectful again.
by SeanR on Dec 20, 2009 10:37 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
+100000000
AN is really hard to read sometimes. I just got a hack job done on me by mikev, then as usual PT & dfa come along to kick me when im down when I didnt even make the argument that I was told I just did.
Now hold on
A lot of your posts tend to follow a pattern:
1) You post a claim withoutyou backing it up
2) People disagree with you while backing it up
3) You then go spouting off about how everyone who disagrees is wrong and being arrogant and misconstruing what you while again you don’t bother to back it up
So for you to say people come in and kick you while you’re down is total bs. Any other blog on the net and you’d be toasted and verbally flayed, here you simply get more proof you’re wrong and verbal eye rolling.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Dec 20, 2009 3:45 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
hack job lol
Stop posting shit that contradicts yourself maybe?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Be that as it may, SeanR,
let me also point out that a handful of bloggers doesn’t inform the “overall respectfulness” of a blog.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
More than a handful,
and you’re risking a sprained thumb.
by LoneStranger on Dec 20, 2009 9:45 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah you have to also look at the history of the users involved
PL78 has a long history of aggressively going after stats posters when PL78’s logic is quite suspect. You can see evidence of this if you just look up thread. If you can dish it out you better be able to take it.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 20, 2009 10:40 AM PST up reply actions
Definitely agree on looking at the history of the users involved.
Some have even managed to get themselves banned for months at a time.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on Dec 20, 2009 10:47 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
In part because the people you take on
don’t care enough to flag your baiting posts.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
that incident has absofuckinglutely nothing to do with this
the banning was for political statements anyway. Additionally he served his time. Furthermore, I think that the treatment of PL78 with KID GLOVES in terms of mockery for his/her/its numerous attacks on stat people couple with an insanely simplistic and backward view of baseball is sad. If you want to consistently go after people without reason and contribute little in terms of baseball knowledge to the site I think you should be mocked till you either take a different tact, or leave.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 20, 2009 12:03 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I think you mean different "tack"
although the typo is rather apropos here. :p
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
I appreciate your intelligent contributions to the site, DFA
You’ve written quite a few fanposts that have been informative and entertaining reading, as you know. We benefit from that work.
I think it’s the high-school (and college?) debate-team member in you that might compel you to defend against and counter the opposing viewpoints of posters like PL78.
I just don’t see it being very constructive, even if you make a well-reasoned, logical argument.
Look at the approach of a poster like Danny. He’s universally respected on here, he’s very logical and knowledgeable about stats like you…but he stays out of spats like this one. He’ll take on PT in a debate, or give me a gentle nudge in the right direction when I’ve gone off the path, but you never see him get involved in flare ups like this. My guess is that he’s made the judgment that both sides are so far apart that there’s no point, and that no one is hurt by just letting an unresearched or counterintuitive comment sit there, unreplied to.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Dec 20, 2009 4:15 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
That's definitely a better method.
I keep telling myself pretty much what you’ve just said, but something about PL78’s arrogance just rubs me the wrong way, and I can’t resist. Eh.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
by danmerqury on Dec 20, 2009 4:50 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
notsellingjeans,
You’re right, my history with debate does encourage me to make at times unproductive forays into arguing with people whose head is in the sand. However, in this case I merely defended PT from what I think is a significantly unfair line of criticism, that he and all stats people were mocking PL78 with ALL CAPS TEXT, which considering that PT didn’t use that and PL78 did is pretty preposterous. Notice that I never replied to PL78’s ridiculous comments. You can only poke a bear with a stick so many times and not expect it to come after you. I was pointing out that considering how often PL78 pokes bears with sticks, the treatment of PL78 is pretty soft.
Furthermore, I like Danny’s work her which is very sporadic and yet still quite valuable. That being said, it takes two to tango, which is why he can give you a nudge in the right direction, because you are open to others ideas and that perhaps you could be wrong. Those traits don’t apply in this test case.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 20, 2009 8:51 PM PST up reply actions
very true, all of that
and thanks for your praise.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Dec 20, 2009 10:15 PM PST up reply actions
Well, half true anyway.
I would say that what your history with debate encourages is not “arguing with people whose head is in the sand” but rather narrowly defining ideas like “without backing it up” or "contribute little in terms of baseball knowledge to only include statements that are stated according to the rules of your debate-world cloister.
The reason you debate kids drive me frickin’ crazy sometimes is that you are completely deaf to anyone who doesn’t subscribe to your worldview. You have your little arguments and think you’re disagreeing with each other, but it’s just a game you all play only with people who agree to join the club. When some other kid comes along who doesn’t use all the right code words, you not only won’t talk to him, you deny his right to even say anything because it doesn’t fit your rules.
There’s a whole world that doesn’t even exist for you. That’s what debate teaches you.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
by iglew on Dec 21, 2009 12:10 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Asking someone to present some kind of basis
for factual claims about the accuracy of a statistic is demanding “code words”?
I mean, that might well be true, but if so, it’s profoundly despair-inducing.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
no, I think
insisting that they use statistics to begin with would be the demanding part. If I read iglew right.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 21, 2009 10:59 AM PST up reply actions
Here's the problem
I think we’d all be open to non-statistical “evidence” to back up someone’s claim here. But this is baseball, and none of us are actually inside the game.
ALL WE HAVE IS STATISTICS (and crap like “does he look like he’s trying hard”)! There IS more than the stats, of course. Things like if an entire team wants to murder their teammate (looking at you, Bradley, M.) don’t always reach us.
So in a world where many of us want logical, well-reasoned debate, there is very little other than statistics when it comes to baseball. And, iglew, your defense of the “non-statistics” people falls apart quickly when you realize that ALL of those people end up using stats. Bad ones. You really can’t have it both ways.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 21, 2009 11:04 AM PST up reply actions
...
in a world where many of us want logical, well-reasoned debate, there is very little other than statistics
That’s insisting others participate within your parameters.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 21, 2009 11:07 AM PST up reply actions
Well, the discussion is about what will bring about winning baseball
And this stuff has been EMPIRICALLY PROVEN to be what winning baseball is made of.
What other legitimate parameters are there? Nobody can EVER FUCKING ANSWER THAT! Never. People complain about other opinions being shot down. Well, damnit, let’s have the other opinions. Let’s have some well-reasoned thoughts that are contrary.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 21, 2009 11:16 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
SIGN GAMERS
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Can you give us an example
of an intelligent— hell, even intelligible— debate about baseball talent which does not make use of statistics?
How is that even possible? There’s no way to compare players without some kind of metric. Whether it’s the 20-80 scout scale, RBIs, or WAR, SOMETHING is being used to rate players against one another.
The alternative is either yes-no slapfights where each side is convinced the other is wrong but they never actually engage each other, or postmodernist circle-jerks in which everyone gets together and agrees about how difficult it is to ever agree on anything.
I find both of those possibilities to be complete wastes of time.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
by PaulThomas on Dec 21, 2009 1:42 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Nope.
I cannot.
You are right and I am wrong.
All is right in the world again.
Rest easy.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 21, 2009 1:46 PM PST up reply actions
I can. Are concerns about Aroldis Chapman's
immaturity, cockiness, work ethic, etc. legitimate red flags that he will develop less, relative to his talent, than he otherwise would?
I could see an intelligent, and intelligible, debate on this, looking at comparable past cases, and looking at the correlation, or lack thereof, of “demonstrated talent” and “character issues.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
What's your take on that?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 21, 2009 4:31 PM PST up reply actions
I think "work ethic" can correlate to talent,
because repetition/practice is such a huge part of gaining mastery at a craft. I think anything that correlates with drugs or a “bad for your body” lifestyle (partying, drinking, eating mostly junk food) is also a legitimate consideration.
Most of the rest is probably too small a correlation, if any, to be worth considering. Plus, immature 21 year olds can grow up to be pretty mature 24 year olds.
Now one can disagree with some, or all, of what I said, and give an excellent rebuttal I’m sure.
And that’s an intelligent and intelligible conversation!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
But the only reason why it's sort of plausible
is that Chapman has amassed no stats which are of substantial value.
If the guy was whiffing 10 batters per 9 innings in AAA, teams would be lining up to sign him even if he professed to be the son of the Son of Sam. If he was walking 10 per 9 innings, his agent’s office would, at least in terms of traffic in and out, closely resemble a leper colony .
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
They might be lining up to sign him,
and he still might turn out to be like many of the busts who looked like “can’t miss” studs when they were 21.
Or he might turn out to be like some of the stars who looked like “can’t miss” studs when they were 21.
I knew Ben Grieve personally (not well) and he literally had the best “can’t miss in the bigs” swings of any A’s minor leaguer I traveled with, including Giambi, including Spiezio.
He also had “fizzle out young, underachieve” written all over him — he was a really nice guy, but with no drive or intensity that I could see.
So it wasn’t shocking to me that he didn’t have a longer, better career, though he really had the tools to be a star hitter for many years.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
You just made my point for me
This debate ultimately goes nowhere. Maybe he’s Ben Grieve, maybe he’s Hanley Ramirez. Hands in the air time— no one has a clue.
Trying to read tea leaves based on unreliable thirdhand accounts of personality traits does very little to help. Maybe the teams that have actually interviewed him and watched him interact have a better sense of things, but like jd said, we don’t get access to that info.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Then your point is that
unanswerable questions aren’t worth asking or discussing. It’s your right to think so, but just realize that many, many people, baseball fans and non-baseball fans, simply don’t share that very subjective perspective.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I read his point as
If you have stats, then the discussion of third hand accounts or personality traits really offer little (if anything) as an argument because you have really nothing more than baseless accounts that really can’t discount the stats. Therefore if you don’t have stats, you still have mostly really little to offer and the discussion becomes more of a he said/she said sort of argument.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
But do I need to know God's WAR
in order to discuss whether or not He exists?
If a tree falls in the forest, and there’s no one there to hear it, does it need to be park adjusted?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
See, you're doing it again.
… your defense of the "non-statistics" people falls apart quickly …
I’m not talking about stats vs non-stats. As you all well know, I frequently use stats. I’m talking about debate mentality vs every other style of conversation.
You frame everything into a context where competitive assertions are made, to be attacked and defended with the intent of discovering which ones are valid and which are not. I find that limiting and exclusive.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
no.
it inspires joy within me.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 21, 2009 9:28 PM PST up reply actions
well I WOULD be able to take it
if mikev actually wasnt creating arguments and putting words in my mouth. bringing up kouzmanoff, who plays 3B, after I say OUTFIELD DEFENSE METRICS ARE SUSPECT, is plain and simple, fucking retarded.
My point is that having three +4.0 WAR guys in the OF who’s WAR number is largely based in defense, isnt going to win us games, because defensive metrics arent skewed enough vs offense ones.
You know what, whatever
I’m not getting into yet another meta-argument. I think mockery of self-contradictory opinions is warranted. You don’t, unless those opinions use terminology that you’ve taken a dislike to. Fine. Whatever.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Ah....the off-season.
BTW, this is all Nico’s fault.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 10:51 AM PST up reply actions
My opinions are NOT contradictory
I say “OF defense metrics are suspect”
mikev sez: “ZOMG YOU WOULD HATE KOUZ”
I say “huh he’s a 3B”
You all plug your fingers in your ears and say “PL78 is contradicting himself but lets not listen to him even though he didnt actually make that point in any way at all”
Well how bout some useful discussion then.
Can you explain to me why you’re so against outfield UZR? Like specifically, with the process, that makes it so bad.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
Wrong.
I don’t believe mockery of opinions is warranted, period.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
I mock everything I can, though.
Not just opinions.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Get a load of that turtleneck he's wearing.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Not all opinions are created equal
But it’s not usually right to mock right away, especially with new posters.
But when somebody has a history of antagonistic ass-clownery, I’m all for the belittling as long as it’s done in a certain, non-yo’-mama-so-fat kind of way.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 21, 2009 11:05 AM PST up reply actions
HER HIGH SCHOOL PICTURE WAS AN AERIAL PHOTOGRAPH
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I've never heard that one before, but I like it!
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 21, 2009 11:16 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah it really never gets old.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I think you're wrong to take
the annoying habit of all-caps ridicule, demonstrated here only by MikeV, and attribute it to all “stat-minded people”
I would observe that: (1) MikeV is only marginally a “stat guy”. (2) Most stat guys are not obnoxious in that same way. (3) Many non-stat guys are obnoxious in that same way.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
I've never once claimed to be a stat guy
and frankly I think it’s funny that people are somehow convinced it’s gotta be one or the other.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
you do stats, mikey.
you’re a tweener.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 11:06 AM PST up reply actions
mivev
you did call yourself a stat guy a few days ago. you called yourself the dumbest stat guy on the blog…or something like that.
That was probably a joke.
More specifically, I think stats are useful. Super duper useful. The advanced ones are even more useful than the basic ones.
I’m pretty much the opposite of iglew — he doesn’t like WAR because he can’t calculate it himself. I love WAR because other people have already done all the hard work for me and rolled it up into a nice, neat, easy to understand number. Dave Cameron was even nice enough to make a website that you can go to and look it up, along with a shitload of other cool stats.
I guess because I’m accepting of them, since they’re pretty much the best available metrics, that makes me a stat guy. See, the cool thing about them is that if and when someone comes up with something better, it will be discussed and accepted as well.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I am dumb, though. That part was true.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
i guess i don't post enough...
i was just adding to the nonsense. my post was really a comment on your post, not LBs
Opposites attract.
Rawr.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
I kinda thought you were a big ass gril guy rather than a stats guy
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 20, 2009 12:05 PM PST up reply actions
stfu and get back in the basement
STAT GUY
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Cant my mom took the key.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 20, 2009 2:08 PM PST up reply actions
Perhaps so.
I’ve think it’s more prevalent amongst such people, but you’re right that it isn’t exclusive.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
could that be because it is the group you don't belong to?
rather than the group that you agree with that you see the arrogance and dickishness? I mean PL78 did the all caps thing first in the thread for example.
We all are far more likely to think that people we disagree with are being toolbags rather than the people we agree with.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 20, 2009 8:57 PM PST up reply actions
No, it really isn't.
PL78 notwithstanding, the arrogance mostly comes from some odd desire to let the whole world know how smart they are.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
That's not quite fair --
Some of us have a desire to try to let the whole world know how dumb we are.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I don't get it!
-Cindi
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Right... because that isn't an arrogant and dickish statement.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 20, 2009 9:14 PM PST up reply actions
Why do you attach some negative motive to it?
Ever think that maybe, just maybe, people here are trying to teach others, and only after their attempts are mocked and rebuffed that they get frustrated and name-cally?
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 21, 2009 11:12 AM PST up reply actions
Ever think maybe just maybe
other people don’t want to be taught?
Some people don’t come to a fan site for a pedagogical experience.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 21, 2009 11:32 AM PST up reply actions
People who refuse to learn are the absolute worst people on this planet
I’d really love to see them all gone. Forever.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 21, 2009 12:17 PM PST up reply actions
Strangely
I find those who are willing to do anything to learn or experiment to be more disturbing.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Big difference between "always willing to learn"
and “I’ll do anything for a new experience”. The latter is quite disturbing. The former there is just not enough of in this world.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
And you don't see how
you’re in the same category but in a different way?
When I challenge the debate mentality, I’m not just being ornery. I’m trying to open certain people’s eyes.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Seems like you're doing so
in the same manor you’re railing against. At least in the same tone. I don’t mean this as a criticism per se, just an observation that really all sides are doing the same thing, just using different tools to to do the same job.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
stately Wayne Manor.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 21, 2009 10:18 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
You need a place to eat your
high gluten of outfielders. What better place than in a manor?
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
I'll go along with this:
really all sides are doing the same thing, just using different tools to to do the same job.
That’s not a bad thing.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
It also happens to be what she said.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Without the crucible of clash nothing is learned
unless you can explain to me how an uncontested idea can be proven and change my current perception of the world you fail at creating an equally beneficial paradigm of interaction.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 26, 2009 9:38 AM PST up reply actions
If someone is not interested in exchanging ideas,
then talking to a wall would be just as valuable as posting on a blog.
And it would have the beneficial side effect of not bugging the group of people who are actually interested in the concept of human communication.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
I mean, did you *completely* miss where the dude posted this up above
have you watched an A’s game before?
WE HAVE SWEET PITCHING.
WE HAVE GOOD D.
WE DONT HIT.
Therefore, we lose. Therefore, fangraphs OF defensive metrics are nowhere near as important as they appear to be.
In case you did miss that, and you don’t believe my quote, and don’t want to scroll up: click this link and it’ll go to it.
If he wants to bitch about losing while having good d/bad hitting teams, and use the all caps typeface to try and be smug about it, and then in the same thread suggest acquiring another good D / bad hitting player, it’s going to be thrown back at him.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Dec 20, 2009 6:58 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
you mean like
when you’re stabbing a corpse, thinking it’s still alive? you have malice aforethought (in states where the UPC doesn’t apply), yet you technically didn’t kill anyone.
law is fun.
by rollierollieOxenfree on Dec 20, 2009 4:55 PM PST up reply actions
Get out of my bedroom!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
that's another case
Lawrence v. Texas
by rollierollieOxenfree on Dec 20, 2009 7:56 PM PST up reply actions
Isn't that one of those "impossibility of execution" cases?
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Reanimating the corpses of intended murder victims so the murders can actually occur as planned?
Man, they have some really misleading advertising for that shit.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
If the reanimation lasts longer than 4 hours, consult a physician.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
horribly executed analogy
Using the framework that you yourself introduced, the mocking would be the killing, while the inclusion/non-inclusion of weighted runs created would be the “malice aforethought”. So the way it actually went down was:
jeepers: "Your honor, the defendant killed the victim with malice aforethought and should be found guilty of murder."
PT: “The defendant didn’t have malice aforethought!”
jeepers: “Well, he killed the victim—like the inclusion or non-inclusion of malice makes it any better.”
You know a lot less than you think you do, buddy. Proven that time and time again.
by Cutthemullet on Dec 21, 2009 5:05 PM PST up reply actions
one cosmetic change I'd make
“like the presence or absence of malice makes it any better”
—just a change in wording, point still stands
by Cutthemullet on Dec 21, 2009 5:07 PM PST up reply actions
You're back, and already replying to yourself
without missing a beat!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
haha, I'll never lose my form
I could be gone for years and I’d still make my return with a self-reply…judging by this thread, I can see not much else has changed on AN over the past months
by Cutthemullet on Dec 21, 2009 6:22 PM PST up reply actions
Eh
The analogy works equally well either way (person A states elements, person B points out that one element is obviously missing, person A goes back and claims it doesn’t matter after all).
This one is just much less ridiculous-sounding… thus less effective.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
killing/mocking = actions by which the person is judged
malice aforethought/wRC = less significant, perhaps entirely insignifcant, details…the analogy actually makes sense this way, thus, more effective
by Cutthemullet on Dec 21, 2009 6:19 PM PST up reply actions
No
It’s not an insignificant detail.
Jeepers snapped at Mike for using all-caps because he, for whatever reason, associated that “style” with sabr-people.
That typeface was not invented by sabr-people. It is not some kind of new innovation— it must be as old as the internet is. The fact that it can be used equally by anyone who desires to make fun of someone else’s argument is demonstrated by the fact that PL78 USED IT HIMSELF earlier on the thread. No complaints from the language police issued forth there, apparently because of the lack of sabr-speak in his post.
Problem is, mikev’s post didn’t have any sabr-speak either.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
he's associating condescension with sabr-people
and most would agree with him there. It’s not like this hasn’t been discussed numerous times already. As far as the actual usage of wRC, what isn’t significant is whether mikev used it in that specific post, but whether he’d be inclined to favor those who do use it. Hey, I don’t want to re-open the debate; I don’t really think there is a debate about whether the stathead faction of AN is condescending to the “unenlightened.” I just wanted to point out that your analogy was pretty awful, and no one else had called you on it, so I did just that.
by Cutthemullet on Dec 21, 2009 7:30 PM PST up reply actions
That association undoubtedly exists, but it's complete nonsense
There’s every bit as much condescension, arrogance, and hubris from the non-statistically-inclined corners of the blogosphere as there is from “statheads.” Step outside the friendly confines of AN— even as far as the Chronicle’s comment pages, much less, heaven help us, the actual news media— and it’s not even comparable.
The difference here is that people who are simultaneously condescending and clueless are generally laughed off as crackpots. Good statistical analysis can’t be laughed off, thus the constant complaints about how belittling and condescending it is to be told that one is wrong about some issue or other. And, you know, I’m sure it is, but the hypocrisy is a little too rank for my taste.
Bottom line: some people have aggressive personalities, some people have conciliatory personalities, and the distribution of those personalities is barely if at all correlated with opinions on certain issues.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
by PaulThomas on Dec 21, 2009 8:56 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
OMG WTF BBQ WAR EQA HAHAHA LMAO
Better?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Mr. T can't change the World of Warcraft!
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 21, 2009 10:19 PM PST up reply actions
I dare you to go into Lookout Landing
and say that!
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
how dumb do you think I am?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
CGV entrapment alert!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
It's funny how much stats and chatspeak look alike.
WAR? WTF
ERA? LOL
RBI? ROTFLMAO
UZR? OMG!
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
tRA...FTW!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Well, when he talks about acquiring the exact type of guy he railed against
like 10 posts above, you bet your ass I’m going to mock him.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Dec 20, 2009 10:24 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
This a thousand times this.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 20, 2009 10:38 AM PST up reply actions
Uh
That position is so counterintuitive (and, I would add, supported by so little evidence) that no one could possibly have predicted that that’s what you were talking about.
Why in the world would defensive metrics work for infielders and not outfielders? It’s the exact same friggin’ system.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Its not that they dont work
Its that they are skewed so out of wack we are led to believe Nyler Morgan is the greatest player in the history of the game, and Ryan Sweeney was the 16th most valuable OF last year. That is just phony. Hitting should be paramount in the less premium defensive spots. I dont care about corner OF defense if theres a masher there. And niether should you, or anybody.
My original point is that if we go with an OF of Crisp-Davis-Sweeney we very well could have three +4.0 WAR players, who’s value lies mostly in defense, and this will hurt us because their value needs to be offense based instead, as we are a notoriously poor offensive team. Therefore UZR’s weight in WAR is incorrectly skewed when it comes to OF (particularly corner OF) defense.
additionally
outfielders defense often goes so up and down in UZR, shouldnt that be a giant red flag not to take it so seriously?
Why is Torrii Hunter considered an elite defender when UZR hates him.
How on earth is getting a player who put up Andre Eithier’s o+d numbers in 09 going to make us a WORSE team than having Ryan Sweeney out there? Makes zero sense. We would definitely won more games if we had more offense last year, and you cant tell me otherwise.
Torii Hunter is considered an elite defender because he sits on the warning track
and robs home runs and gets on Sportscenter.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Dec 20, 2009 11:24 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
i thought he played excellent defense on the kotsay inside the park homer.
takes a special kind of defensive genius to play a single into an inside the park home run for a guy with a bad back.
I still think that play should always be an error.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
What if the official scorer feels it wasn't
a catchable ball in the first place? Then you can’t take a single away — one Kotsay was going to have if Hunter did anything else — and rule it a 4-base error.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
On second read, I'm assuming you mean
a single + 3B error is ok.
“Never mind.”
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Yep.
Any ball hit directly at a fielder like that should be stopped or knocked down at the very least. If you make an effort to play the ball and miss, error. An official scorer thinks the hitter could have gotten to second, I’m fine with a double and 2 base error, but that sort of play, no way does he come all the way around if the fielder does his job and gets in front of it.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
And he's been doing that for 6 years now.
Glad I’m not the only one who sees that.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 21, 2009 11:17 AM PST up reply actions
UZR is variable because it requires a large sample size to be effective
The solution to that is to use a lot of data where you can and regress to the mean where you can’t, not dismiss the results out of hand.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
It's interesting how people find the variation on UZR unacceptable and proof the shit don't work
But they’ll cite Player A being 0 for 6 against a Pitcher B as proof the Pitcher owns the Hitter.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 21, 2009 11:18 AM PST up reply actions
Well, first off, the odds of all three of those guys hitting 4 WAR are vanishingly low
Second, it is essentially impossible for a player to reach that level without being at least average offensively.
Third, dropping or missing or failing to get to fly balls is really fucking costly. You have a runner on first or second instead of no runner on base and an out, AND any other runners on get to advance. It does not take that many made plays, or conversely that many missed plays, to add up to a lot of runs either way.
Fourth, repeatedly declaring something wrong, without presenting any arguments other than visceral dislike of the results, is not helpful.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
I think what he is getting at is that
There is a more glaring difference between offensively valuable players than defensively valuable ones. You have to assume some basic competency with the glove, and the vast vast majority of outfielders (we can keep it to them for simplicity) are going to catch balls hit in their general direction. It’s not the case that guys with low UZR just stand there and let it fly over their heads.
Offensively, to use your analogy, having a low wOBA when the player is standing at the plate (runners on or not) is no better either. If you do that enough with runners on, that is pretty fucking costly too.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 20, 2009 2:39 PM PST up reply actions
Ok, so, there's two things at play here.
First is the whole “how accurate is UZR” argument. I’m going to grant you that for whatever reason, it’s not perfect. We need to get over that hurdle for the rest of this, so there. We’re over it.
1) You seem to not believe that the defense is as important as the offense. Say, for example, we knew that UZR was 100% perfect. Or at least as 100% perfect as wOBA or something (are you on board with wOBA? Serious question. I don’t know). Would you still believe that weighting offense/defense equally is wrong? My guess from everything you’ve said here is that you would.
Ok, so, why? I suspect it’s because you can see the effects of good offense more than good defense. But that’s speculation. To me, it’s only logical that if your team scores a run, and defense prevents a run, you win. If you don’t prevent the run, you don’t win (yet). If you prevent a bunch of runs and don’t score…nobody wins. Doesn’t this mean they’re exactly equal? Forget WAR and UZR and all that. Think of ACTUAL scoring and not scoring. Your example has been that the A’s “have great defense and still lose 2-1.” But haven’t you just proven that the A’s have great defense, but REALLY REALLY terrible offense? Would increasing the offense and sacrificing defense mean the A’s win 3-2? Or now do they lose 4-3 because instead of Ryan Sweeney in right field, they have…something who hits better but fields worse?
2) Your Nyjer Morgan comment brought up something I posted on The Book blog just last night, and something I’ve been realizing lately. The idea of positional value is tricky for people. I think, at times, we need to make a distinction between “Better” and “more valuable” (though they’re the same thing, really, it helps when people are struggling with this stuff). By “Valuable” I’m not referring to contract or money, but wins. Why is Morgan worth those wins?
First, grant me that Morgan’s defense is as good as UZR says. If he’s not, then he’s not as valuable as the numbers say, so the argument is moot. Just grant he is for this exercise. We know what his offense is (not bad at all), and we “know” what his defense is (pretty freakin’ good). So why is he worth so much? Because he does all that good stuff in center field, and most MLB players can’t even find their way to CF, much less play it at a very high level while still hitting well.
Or, put another way, at certain positions, you worth X number of wins for the simple fact that you can play that spot at some non-abysmal level. It’s because most players can’t (whereas pretty much everybody can play a passable first, and everybody can DH).
I really think the idea of positional value needs to be pushed and explained much better than I just explained it. It’s really one of the key components to this whole WAR business, and I feel like it’s so very often glossed over.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 21, 2009 11:30 AM PST up reply actions
To clarify
Glossed over in WAR discussions, not by the people implementing WAR. A lot of thought goes into it there.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Is Kouz going to play in the OF?
Because I wrote “OF defense” you bring up an INF, which is completely different. This is called “cherry picking something out of a larger point and trying to belittle someone on an argument THAT HE ISNT EVEN FUCKING MAKING”.
Id report this for trolling, but I luckily I dont really care.
No thanks
I think Kouzmanoff is a big stinky pile of baseball turds. He’s a decent defender, but his stick is awful. He’s like Cust without the walks (or as much power). Bad bad bad bad.
I think Davis is a better player now and in the future.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 19, 2009 11:35 PM PST up reply actions
His career wOBA is .321
Rajai’s is .330
They’re both good defenders.
I’d be happy with the deal, considering the starting 3B as of right now is… um… it’s um…
yeah.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
But what do we do *AFTER* the first week of Spring Training?!
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
First week?
hell you’re an optimist. I’d be happy if he made it past the 3rd inning of the first game.
he'll probably only play an inning or two
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Well we don't want to push him
maybe we can get the voodoo doctor from Weekend at Bernie’s 2 to re-animate him and make him walk in a lifelike way
I'm just sayin
jd44 writes a zombie comic. He might know a guy.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Are they allowed to play music during every play & AB
or are were going to have to duct tape headphones to his head?
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
Also bad: treating unadjusted Petco numbers like other numbers
For his career, he’s an above-average hitter.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
But we're talking about him going from Petco/NL to the Coliseum/AL
That is, at least, a pretty neutral shift. Like you mentioned earlier, I did a quick mental numbers adjustment, or in this case, I didn’t do one because I really don’t think he improves any moving to the AL and another park that sucks for hitters.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 20, 2009 10:48 AM PST up reply actions
I think you're severely overrating the difference between NL and AL
It’s much smaller than the difference between Petco and the Coliseum.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Headley would be the big target for the A's
especially since SD put him in the OF about 80% of the time last year. Maybe Davis + a prospect or two?
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Plus I think it would be easier to get him
Kouzmanoff is a huge crowd favorite in SD. Having attended a few games at Petco this past year, they love him there. While the Padres organization seems completely fucked, I’ve got to think they will put this in to some consideration, especially considering that they don’t need to get rid of him…
"Did you know you can comment on Athletics Nation from your phone or PDA? SB Nation has launched mobile commenting. Check it out next time you’re at the game or bar and have something to say."
by stranahanahan on Dec 20, 2009 10:09 AM PST up reply actions
true
down here (SD), he’s a “valued member of the community”, though in a recent interview with him he did acknowledge hearing “rumors” of a trade. I think Hoyer’s first trade as a GM would be something with a pretty short payout timeframe, as he has to build credibiity at his new job.
by rollierollieOxenfree on Dec 20, 2009 4:57 PM PST up reply actions
I still have yet to hear a decent, much less compelling, reason
why San Diego would want Davis at all. He does nothing for them.
He’s not free anymore. In the event that he actually maintains his good play, their “reward” is to be stuck with a growing salary on a team which (as long as the ownership situation is in flux and they can’t rely on it for additional cash) has no money.
If they were a few wins from contention it’d be one thing, but SD was easily one of the worst teams in baseball last year. They actually overplayed their Pythagorean record by a large margin and still sucked ass.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Their division sucks
and prior to the offseason regime change, there was a lot of talk down here about them playing to their park – a lineup biased towards a bunch of speedy contact-hitter types and plus defenders. Davis would seemingly be a good fit with that line of thinking.
And if that doesn’t work for you, they have a long history of being, well…dumb- as was previously noted above.
Well, first, I dispute that notion
Kevin Towers won a lot of games in San Diego, on some pretty small budgets. He wasn’t great but I’d say he was easily in the top half, probably more like the #5-#10 range of GMs.
But more importantly, they’ve made a management change. Towers isn’t in charge anymore; they got Jed Hoyer from Boston. It’s far too early to assume that the new management is “dumb.”
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
The last line was intended as a non-sequitur, but if you insist...
The regime change was noted above – and I didn’t single out Towers. San Diego’s backlog of dumb moves has historically stemmed from ownership. Their reluctance to scout abroad or pay for premium talent in the draft under the Moores ownership group is well-documented and they have a penchant for clinging to mediocre local players or scrappy/gritty/fan-favorite types – see David Eckstein, Phil Nevin, The Giles Brothers, Khalil Greene…
Time will tell with Moorad – he is heavily leveraged and will not assume full ownership of the team from the Moores group for a few years, but it is worth noting that Towers wasn’t really in charge last year either – Moorad as Owner/CEO had a heavy hand in the moves the Padres made in 2009.
Your list of reasons why they have no need for Davis could also be handily applied to Kevin Correia, whom they just inked to a 3.6 million dollar deal.
That's a perfectly fair point
But SD is a team playing a 3B in the OF — and the A’s are a team that could play 5 OFs, and has basically no legitimate 3B to start the season. It seems like each team could help the other solve its problem.
I was thinking Davis + Desme or Brown, possibly. Maybe Doolittle. That would help fill a hole in the ‘10 outfield, and give them a prospect for the future. Hell, I might consider Sweeney for Headley, though I’d like to know more about Headley’s defense and look more carefully at his hitting record first.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
The problem with Sweeney for Headley
is that Headley could turn out to be a corner OFer, in which case Sweeney appears to be the better one.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Why would they?
He’s not exactly big-name talent, and the team they’re fielding right now is just godawful from a competitive standpoint. They’d just waste his cheap seasons winning 67 games instead of 65.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
see what they would give up for hairston/davis
"They (The 1989 A's) are the best team I ever saw"- Mike Krukow
They just traded Hairston to Oakland six months ago...
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
I don't think the White Sox are in the market anymore
They’ve got Pierre, Rios, Quentin, Kotsay, and Andruw Jones. I’m sure Kotsay won’t play a ton of OF, but probably more there than first.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 19, 2009 11:34 PM PST up reply actions
Welcome to our new LF
Is this the real life-
Is this just fantasy-
Caught in a landslide-
No escape from reality-
The other day, I was talking to my friend
about how I didn’t think I could possibly be less excited for this year. Touche, Billy, touche.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
Yeah
Its a mix of Really?, Who?, Sweet!, and WTF!
I can see a lot of rosterbating the coming months.
To think I pretty much had all the players jersey numbers down…
I can help with the jerseys!
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
This definitely is not a boring offseason
Offered most $$ to scutaro and carroll
Trades for Fox and Taylor
Nontender Cust
Signing a good amount of productive minor league relievers
Signing Crisp
With more moves on the way, stay tuned!
Not boring =/= good.
Other than the Taylor trade, and the addition of low risk/high upside guys into our system, this off season has been baffling and frustrating. I’d rather see Billy spend the money on a Beltre or the likes.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
So you want to pay beltre 5 yr/50million?
A’s are interested and thats his asking price
by MagicMike23 on Dec 20, 2009 12:08 AM PST up reply actions
Good point,
I’d rather see the A’s try and sign/negotiate with Beltre than blow $5 mm on another, possibly shitty outfielder.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
Lets just say crisp on a 1yr deal
IMO has no influence if they do or dont sign Beltre.
Onecould argue spending that equal money of 4-5 mill on feliz, atkins couldve been possible, But people likely would be complaining on those signings too
by MagicMike23 on Dec 20, 2009 12:12 AM PST up reply actions
rightly so.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I'm just totally missing the point of a Coco Crisp.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
He IS a part of this complete breakfast.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I think I might love you
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
which makes sense in Oakland..
The A’s have been pretty milky the last few years, now the roster is getting a little. . . chocolateyer.
"I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing, and it was everything that I thought it could be." -- Peter Gibbons
There's cinnamon swirls in every bite.
Coco Crisp, the taste you can see!
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
I think that's Cinnamon Toast Crunch...
he’s in the Royals farm system.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 9:02 AM PST up reply actions
OK, but that's ridiculous
No one is going to pay that. It’s standard Boras setting-the-measuring-stick bullshit talk. We’ve seen it a million times before— leak outrageous numbers to the press so teams that sign merely “bad” contracts feel like they got some kind of bargain.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
So whats more realistic?
In the A’s range, maybe 3yr/27-30 mill?
With the lowell trade being beingdeclined due to his injury, maybe their most interested team may or may not still want beltre
by MagicMike23 on Dec 20, 2009 12:21 AM PST up reply actions
I think 3/27 is realistic on this market
Now, someone else may offer that too, in which case (as we’ve seen) Beltre is likely to go elsewhere. But, you know, can’t hurt to try.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
I think I had suggested 3 years for between 24-27 million
So that sounds about right Paul. Any contract longer than that for Beltre is just plain foolish.
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
I totally saw this coming...NOT
My only guess is Hairston is more seriously injured than previously thought. What kind of serious injury could have the original symptoms of hip and quad pain?
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
If Hairston is that severely injured, he should've been non-tendered.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 20, 2009 10:50 AM PST up reply actions
He has enough value and club control
that simply throwing him away doesn’t seem to do much good. I could totally see the A’s putting him on the 60-day DL and waiting for when Hairston regains health.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
OK a little rosterbation never hurt anyone....
Sweeney for Vitters and Castro?
Hairston for Havens?
Would you take either deal? Would the Cubs or Mets?
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
I dont think either team does that
Rajai under teamscontrol through 2012, Hairston is 2011. So they should get something back useful.
by MagicMike23 on Dec 20, 2009 12:35 AM PST up reply actions
I'm a big Havens fan
And Raj and Hairston have enough question marks that service time is not the most important factor in making a trade.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
I like Havens too
I think he might be a breakout guy next year in minors.
He needs to stay healthy and get a better BABIP.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 20, 2009 10:41 AM PST up reply actions
Vitters is pants-tacular
I’m pretty sure Stephen Hawking has taken more walks in the last three years than Josh Vitters has.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
by PaulThomas on Dec 20, 2009 12:38 AM PST up reply actions 5 recs
You know anything about Brent Morel?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Vitters has upside though
And the real prize of the deal is Starlin Castro.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
I disagree completely
Players with that kind of impatience have terrible upside. Even if he’s a .300 hitter with decent power, he’d still barely be a league-average hitter.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
This
Vitters walk rate is truly abysmal. Starlin Castro might be the real deal but there are differing reports out there about his speed and him growing out of the SS position due to adding weight on his thighs as he ages.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 20, 2009 10:43 AM PST up reply actions
i read a couple articles that said this
due to adding weight on his thighs as he ages.
and just smirked. sounds like life to me.
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
Ha!
"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau
by King Richard on Dec 20, 2009 12:55 AM PST up reply actions
I love Sweeney
But why would they give up their best 2 specs for him?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Funny, crisp's mlb.com page
His front page highlight is a HR, 3 hit game vs oakland. Ironically Buck misplays the fly ball and knocks it over the fence
Is Beane trading for Yunel Escobar ?
Reid Brignac ?
Callaspo revisited ?
Which teams would be interested in Hairston, Buck, Davis ?
If Beane got Yunel
He could sign a million Jamey Carrolls and Coco Crisps and I would still call it a good offseason.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Rajai for Callaspo
Dayton, you know you want to do it. Maybe Beane can throw in a reliever to make him feel better about it.
I hope not
that’s selling high on 2 players, and callaspo’s defense at 3rd or short would be rough for awhile….
Hearing KC fans talk about Callaspo’s immaturity is of concern as well.
"Did you know you can comment on Athletics Nation from your phone or PDA? SB Nation has launched mobile commenting. Check it out next time you’re at the game or bar and have something to say."
by stranahanahan on Dec 20, 2009 1:20 AM PST up reply actions
This team could use a totally immature third baseman
Who is healthy and can stay that way, who can hit .300/.360 and who has some record of playing solid infield defense.
You realize selling high is a good thing, right?
I’m assuming this is some kind of misstatement…
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Yes, my wording is a bit confusing
"Did you know you can comment on Athletics Nation from your phone or PDA? SB Nation has launched mobile commenting. Check it out next time you’re at the game or bar and have something to say."
by stranahanahan on Dec 20, 2009 10:13 AM PST up reply actions
That's why it's better to sell high than to post high.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I don't want to speak for stranahanahan
But I think what he means is that while the A’s would rightly be selling high on Davis, they’re also buying high on Callaspo, who probably isn’t very good. Maybe that’s not his argument, but it’s probably a valid one.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 20, 2009 11:04 AM PST up reply actions
I don't think liking
Fart jokes is a disqualification for playing baseball.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
Being arrested
in two separate incidents for assaulting your wife and for DUI aren’t grounds for disqualification, either, I guess, but that sort of erratic behavior creates risk, which lessens Callaspo’s value. If KC thinks they can get equal baseball value in a trade for Callaspo, they’re likely mistaken.
I'm just thinking back to the issues we heard about CarGon
I’m not disqualifying him by any means, it’s just a concern.
"Did you know you can comment on Athletics Nation from your phone or PDA? SB Nation has launched mobile commenting. Check it out next time you’re at the game or bar and have something to say."
by stranahanahan on Dec 20, 2009 10:14 AM PST up reply actions
We won't get Yunel
Atlanta’s looking for a proven right handed power bat, we dont have one to give.
"Did you know you can comment on Athletics Nation from your phone or PDA? SB Nation has launched mobile commenting. Check it out next time you’re at the game or bar and have something to say."
by stranahanahan on Dec 20, 2009 1:18 AM PST up reply actions
HAIRSTON!
lol
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Hey
they did settle for Garrett Anderson as their OF “bat” last offseason.
Hairston for now
Cunningham for later and a couple of a relievers. Still probably wouldn’t work.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
So, the only logic I can see in this
is that Beane doesn’t think that Davis’ high point of last season will be repeated, and so he’s bringing in someone who he thinks is more of a sure thing.
And / or – it’s a reasonably well known name that someone might be interested in trading for at the allstar break
And / or – the marketing department told him to spend some money on someone people had heard of so that sports radio would stop whining about the A’s being cheap?
Other than that, I’ve got nothing.
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
But then why, this year of all years,
would you spend $5M on a replica of something you have cheaper? It’s the opposite of getting rid of Cust so you can play Fox or McPherson. Crisp has injury questions like Rajai has SSS questions, so it’s not some slam-dunk clear upgrade. If you want a guy like Crisp around, why not go with the one you already have who doesn’t require you to spend $5M? If you’re willing to spend $5M on a slightly better version of what you have so you’ll be a little better in 2010, why don’t you re-sign Jack Cust for less than $5M?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
It could be that Rajai simply has more trade value than Cust
So if a team can have Crisp + Fox + hypothethical third baseman Rajai gets us in trade, that’s superior to having Cust + Rajai.
hey, no, I agree - I'm just trying to work out why Beane thinks it might be a good idea
I don’t like it, and I don’t particularly like Crisp – it may not be his fault, but the constant hype he got when he was at Boston really annoyed me.
Plus, he played for Boston.
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
I'm surprised that no one has discussed how utterly different this team is now
I mean, Beane has gone ahead and completely made over the future of this team.
If I may impart my opinion, I think Beane is reacting to some of the struggles our pitching encountered last season.
Therefore, he’s going ahead and fielding the quickest most athletic team he can in order for the pitchers to have confidence in being able to go after hitters earlier in counts, thus making them throw less pitches and be able to end the season on a stronger note.
Obviously it really depends on what happens from here but if we end up inking Beltre or getting a Kouzmanoff or equally good defensively SS, this has to be Beane’s thinking, IMO.
Think about it- he traded Wallace for a similarly touted prospect- but one with a significant amount more athleticism and defensive ability. He goes and gets Crisp, known primarily for his glove. Fox then essentially replaces Cust as a DH now with no chance playing outfield. I may be reading way too much into this, but i just feel that Beane has decided to value speed and defense more than ever before. He had to have viewed Seattle and Anaheim’s successes last season and seen a trend in the AL West that he had to adapt to. Seattle got quicker this offseason without losing quality of defense. Anaheim has always had that whole “small ball” thing going for them.
And maybe he saw the success in the 2nd half of the season as the future of this team.
I really wish i wasn’t so tired so i could actually have written this well, but i figured i would write it out now before i forget tomorrow.
"Did you know you can comment on Athletics Nation from your phone or PDA? SB Nation has launched mobile commenting. Check it out next time you’re at the game or bar and have something to say."
Is it worth 5 million dollars
for the pitchers to upgrade from Hairston to Crisp? Goodness that seems like a waste.
rebuildingseason.blogspot.com
by Rebuilding Season on Dec 20, 2009 1:42 AM PST up reply actions
It will be worth 5 million
if Beane turns this into another trade for a either a big bat or a 3rd baseman or SS. And Hairston sure as hell did not impress me in the outfield last year, either.
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
good comment
I agree as well. but coco is not an upgrade to Rajai at all.. Rajai is a great fielder just as good as Coco and maybe even a better hitter.
Last year, it was "let's take the pressure off by signing good offensive players and praying the defense works out"
Now it’s “let’s take the pressure off by signing good defensive players and praying the offense works out”?
What happened to “let’s just sign some actual good players, at positions where we need to get better, so we can win baseball games, and forget all this psycho-babble”?
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
by PaulThomas on Dec 20, 2009 1:53 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Beane is metagaming the metagame methinks
Let’s take the pressure off the season by signing a bunch of awful players so that everyone knows we’re not going to be good this year.
rebuildingseason.blogspot.com
by Rebuilding Season on Dec 20, 2009 1:58 AM PST up reply actions
Apparently, the budget doesn't allow for that.
Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you. ~Reggie Jackson
PT I'm not agreeing with this philosophy, I'm just trying to reason
with whatever the hell is going on here.
But don’t worry, Olney now puts us in the same class as Boston and Seattle because of this move:
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=olney_buster
"Did you know you can comment on Athletics Nation from your phone or PDA? SB Nation has launched mobile commenting. Check it out next time you’re at the game or bar and have something to say."
by stranahanahan on Dec 20, 2009 10:16 AM PST up reply actions
It's the new West Coast Offense
MLB edition!!
I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)
Defense makes your pitching look good
Which increases trade value (Haren, Blanton, Mulder)
In a pitcher’s park, that’s probably the best trick you can pull time and time again.
Another interesting detail
What if team didn’t want to trade Rajai before they had another CF option in the house because they don’t believe Sweeney’s knees can hold up in center?
Well, when a mommy and a daddy love each other very much
oh… wait
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
No one said to stop.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
Okay. Well, when a mommy and a daddy love each other very much
They sit down together and eat 3 or 4 boxes of breakfast cereal so they can get all the UPC codes they need.
Then they send away, and after waiting 8-12 weeks for delivery, a stork brings them a baby!
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
....this connects to Coco Crisp somehow, doesn't it?
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 10:52 AM PST up reply actions
Is outfield defensive value linear?
Let’s say you have three average outfielders. You replace them with three outfielders who are +10. Is your total outfield value now +30, or something more like +25? I would imagine if you have three really rangy outfielders, their range begins to overlap each other.
Crisp-Davis-Sweeney would be one heckuva defensive outfield, but I wonder if there’s a point of diminishing returns, and a signing like this doesn’t improve the team as much as you’d think just by simple addition.
But but but...
Instead of losing every game 4-1, we’ll now lose every game 3-1!
(I don’t know the answer to your interesting question.)
The artist formerly known as HigherPie.
Seattle had Gutierrez (+27/150), Saunders (+20/150) and Ichiro (+11/150) in the outfield
.last year and they didn’t seem to get in each others’ way. I gotta believe the Oakland OF is plenty big enough for three very good defenders.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 20, 2009 3:45 AM PST up reply actions
It doesn't appear to be
It makes sense— any ball that’s in the air long enough for two outfielders to get to the spot is usually a ball that’s an easy play anyway.
That being said, the number of chances that a RF or LF will get is lower than the number of chances a CF will get, so it limits the OF’s ability to show his range if you put him in RF. In that sense there are diminishing returns.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
This signing only makes sense if a big trade is in the making
You’re spending 5 mln on a 2 WAR outfielder, to replace a 3 WAR outfielder, who’s being payed 1+ mln and not a whole lot more the next year. The only way this works is if you can trade Davis et. al. for a 3-4 WAR player on the left side of the infield who will not be payed too much either, the next couple of years.
Also, having Crisp for 1 or 2 years suggests that that’s the amount of time the A’s front office expects Sweeney, Taylor, Desme, Brown, Cunningham (Doolittle) need to truly establish themselves.
I don't think Davis is a 3 WAR player, or even close to it really, but meh
This is a lateral move at best. I don’t think either one of them will be particularly good in 2010.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
More to the point, IMO, is that either could be good
as a plus defensive play at a defensive position — if surrounded by enough hitters at other positions that their offensive shortcomings aren’t a big problem. You’d think that with a Davis in hand, $4-5M would be spent in areas where the A’s are deficient, i.e., hitting, power, 3B, SS…
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Pointless
Crisp is basically an expensive Rajai Davis. And neither hits even remotely well enough to play in a corner.
This is an awful signing.
The worst free agent signing of the offseason. Looks like Beane will win the award for the second year running.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Over-react much?
And I thought Minaya won the award last year for Oliver Perez.
The monster at the end of this blog.
yeah, and Jason Bay to the Mets for his defensive prowess could be craptacular, too
plus, Brian Sabean still has some dollars burning a hole in his trouser pocket
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
In retrospect, there were worse signings last year.
I defy you to find one that’s worse this offseason, though.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Easy.
Jason Kendall: 2yr/$6MM.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
Brandon Lyon. Jason Kendall. Pudge Rodriguez.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
1 for 3, perhaps.
Kendall is pretty bad, I guess, Lyon is a good pitcher. Even so, Kendall and Rodriguez play good defense, and at a position from which little offense is expected.
Crisp pretty much guarantees that we won’t have an outfielder that cracks .750 for OPS. That’s just terrible.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Uh. 3 years and 15 million dollars for a reliever of Lyon's caliber?
really, that’s awfuld.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Pudge just turned 38
If he can start the majority of games at catcher for the Nats, I’ll be surprised.
All three are pretty bad…
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 20, 2009 2:49 PM PST up reply actions
Lyon's contract is just gross
Astros essentialy gave a 3/15 contract to a middle reliever who would have trouble cracking our bullpen.
Yeah, that's a lot of years.
OK, I’m being talked down from the ledge a little bit. I still think it’s an awful sign.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
Lyon's contract sounds reminiscent of TARE.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 10:53 AM PST up reply actions
I don't think spending $5M over 1 season could possibly be the worst signing
Not enough years or money are committed to be truly awful.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 20, 2009 11:10 AM PST up reply actions
5/12 i think
last year he made 5.25 iirc. could be wrong.
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
{shudders}
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 21, 2009 5:19 PM PST up reply actions
What the heck, I'll throw in my 2 cents
My guess Hairston is as good as gone. He was hanging on by a fingernail when the A’s traded for Taylor and signing Crisp cuts at the cuticle. Crisp starts in LF. If Davis ends up being a mirage as many fear than Crisp is on hand to replace him. Folks need to keep in mind the time lag involved in the “Davis as mirage” scenario. The A’s have made it clear that Rajai is heading into next season as the starting CF. It is incredibly doubtful that he’ll tank so badly in ST that he’ll lose his job before Opening Day; therefore I speculate that any line-up change won’t happen until May at the earliest. Crisp would then move to CF and either Taylor or Cunningham (or Buck… heh) moves into LF.
But Hairston is gone, either by trade or getting released.
The monster at the end of this blog.
No release
You are right Hairston is the most likely gone. He has good trade value and many teams need a LF. Perfect fit for the Giants but Sabean never trades with the A’s unless they can do a 3 way.
Just chill guys and gals
We all know that once the A’s sign Crisp someone will be flipped. Its better to have a GM that take chances then a GM that sits on his butt and do nothing. I expect a 3b or ss is coming back in a trade. Kouz in SD or maybe a block buster of escobar with braves. I am hoping on a Escobar trade.
Why do you "expect" that?
Sure, we need a SS and 3B, but what evidence exists to make you think that we’re going to get Escobar?
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
Braves GM exploring trades
They have a good SS prospect and their manager doesn’t get along with Escobar. They need a LF and the A’s could do a package around Hairston, Ziggy and another player.
So you go from "expect" it... to "could".
Well yeah… anything “could” happen.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
The Braves just spent, and mind you I am approximating here,
892 billion dollars upgrading their bullpen.
I really don’t think the return they’re looking for for their starting shortstop is more relief pitching.
Maybe if the “another player” was Michael Taylor or something…
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
But Bobby Cox hates Yunel!
And the A’s could send Pennington in the deal for Escobar. And, and, and…..please?
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
The problem is that nobody else seems to get along with Escobar, either
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 20, 2009 2:50 PM PST up reply actions
I don't agree at all with the community pessimism surrounding this move.
It affords the team a lot of additional flexibility – to account for trades, likely injuries, and the desire to keep our top hitting prospects in Sacramento until they put up good MLEs over a large sample.
Here’s the 13 hitters I had budgeted for the Opening Day lineup prior to this move, assuming perfect health:
Suzuki/Barton/Ellis/Pennington/Chavez/Hairston/Davis/Sweeney…Fox/McPherson/Patterson/Miles/Powell.
The team clearly doesn’t want to rush Carter or Taylor, and that’s a good thing, because both guys have barely even played in AAA. Cunningham has still played only 103 AAA games, too.
And an equally important point is that none of that trio, nor Buck, would gain anything from rotting on a big-league bench, which is exactly what would’ve happened after the first minor injury if this team hadn’t signed another outfielder. Yesterday, the A’s had only five true outfielders listed on their 40-man roster, and two of them (Buck and Cunningham) are ticketed for AAA.
Now, back to those 13 aforementioned hitters: Only 3 of them are true outfielders, and then there’s Patterson and Fox, who could both play left. That’s pretty thin. It looks much better with Crisp, who pushes Rajai to 4th OF, at least temporarily. But he could still conceivably play almost every day, because Hairston/Crisp/Sweeney certainly aren’t iron men.
The other interesting thing about this deal is the 2011 option, which I’m not quite clear on the details of yet. But I do know this: the 2011 free agent class of outfielders is terrible. There’s Carl Crawford, Jayson Werth, and…absolutely nothing else. Here’s the center fielders:
Willie Bloomquist (33)
Jody Gerut (33)
Willie Harris (33)
Andruw Jones (34)
Mark Kotsay (35)
Jason Michaels (35)
Corey Patterson (31)
Willy Taveras (29)
I think that with Crisp, the A’s are going to have another good trade chip, because he offers a hell of a lot more upside than any of that crew.
That’s why he’s a better use of a roster spot than Cust. DHs grow on trees these days. Cust had no trade value – if he did, he would’ve been traded, rather than released. But CFs are scarce enough that the A’s will be able to flip Crisp or Davis for something of value in the future. And those future assets will contribute to the A’s next dynasty, even though Crisp won’t.
No reason to criticize this deal. He’ll have some future trade value, and he’s a guy who actually wanted to play for the A’s. That’s something that makes him different than Scutaro, Furcal, Carroll, and very likely Chapman or Beltre, too.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Dec 20, 2009 9:03 AM PST reply actions 4 recs
+1; I like the move.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
A's going small ball
They can’t out homer anybody so why not go small ball until the big bats come up from AAA.
If you don't agree with the community than consider yourself shunned!
The monster at the end of this blog.
groupthink alert!
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
While I don't disagree with any of this
I still don’t like the signing (certainly not in a vacuum), but I also don’t hate the signing. If we do nothing else, it’s more of a “meh” move. If we trade for something useful with our gluten of outfielders, it may well be a “yay” move. I don’t really see it becoming a “zomg we’re all going to die” move unless Geren becomes an idiot… oops. His misuse of players could potentially make it a disaster depending on how Coco actually plays.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
I see lots of malapropisms on AN, but
I think this one is my favorite:
our gluten of outfielders
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Some people just can't digest what I'm saying.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
maybe this signing is just a re-branning exercize?
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
Coco Crisp.
Now, contains wheat gluten!
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
So disliking this signing means I have celiac disease?
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Hey, you can't mock (duck) me!
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
I mean, like, it's better than just not spending any money on anything
but that doesn’t make it a good move. They added another below-average option at a position which was already jammed to the gills with below-average options, while wasting money that could have been used to upgrade positions where the team had nothing at all of value.
Also, he’s worse and more expensive than Jack Cust.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
by PaulThomas on Dec 20, 2009 10:33 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
For point of clarification
In 2009 Crisp scored a higher WAR (1.2) than Cust (1.0) in significantly less playing time. He was also a +9 on the basepaths. I’m not sure what the final projections are for Crisp vs. Cust (have defensive projections come out yet?) in 2010 but if he stays healthy it appears that Crisp should be worth the expense.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Cust should bounce back from his bad 09
whereas Crisp’s 06-08 performance level was significantly WORSE than his 09 performance… and he’s suffered major injuries, to boot.
CHONE’s complete projections have Cust as 3.5 runs better than Crisp if you assume that Cust is a full-time DH. That does not include the major downgrade involved in forcing other players with positive defensive value to the DH slot, however. As mediocre as Fox’s 3B defense is likely to be, I doubt it’s the 20-runs-below-average abortion required for moving him to DH to be a net zero for the team.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
I need to go check out the final CHONE projections!
But Cust is 31 and could bounce back towards (I’m guessing) his 2008 line. He’s got old player skills and this could be a downward cycle. Plus Crisp should be healthy by now… hopefully the A’s gave him a medical exam before tendering him a contract.
My math seems to be coming out different from yours. I’ve got Crisp averaging 1.8 WAR from 06-08 so I’m not seeing were you got “significantly worse” from.
And… I’m not seeing where you got 3.5 runs better than Crisp via CHONE. My math comes out to +1 run for Cust… which I’d argue gets eaten up by Crisp’s edge in baserunning.
Why is our math so wonky? I went to Baseball Projections for the numbers and Fangraphs for the positional/replacement values.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Shit, you're right
I forgot the +2.5 positional adjustment for CF.
So, in a vacuum, they’re similarly talented players. The problem is, this is not a vacuum. Someone has to play DH and not everyone can play CF.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
No worries
So…
If we say they are similar players and you believe one is toast (Cust) and the other still has upside (Crisp) and they’re going to cost within $1 million (???) of each other then the real question is can Crisp play such excellent defense in LF to make up for the 10 run switch in positional adjustment AND make up for any offensive deficiency?
I think the A’s are betting the answer to that question is “Yes”.
The monster at the end of this blog.
That I don't have a problem with
Defensive spectrum, etc. He’ll probably be slightly less valuable in LF than CF but we’re only talking about a couple of runs at most, I’d say.
The problem is on the other end. The lack of Jack Cust probably moves Fox to DH (almost certainly a downgrade, although exactly how much of one depends on exactly how bad Fox would be at third base) and leaves a void at third base, where the team literally does not have a single reliable option at this point. Saying the production from 3B will be replacement level seems perfectly plausible to me. By contrast, I’d hope for 1-1.5 WAR from Fox at third.
So to summarize this scenario, we have:
Crisp in LF replacing Hairston or something, maybe half a win upgrade if you’re feeling generous,
Fox replacing Cust at DH, projected to be about a 1.5 win downgrade, and
McChavez replacing Fox at 3B, probably at least a 1 win downgrade.
That’s an epic disaster considering that the A’s are actually paying money for this transaction.
The alternative, which is replacing Cust with a roughly replacement level DH like Cunningham, Powell, etc., while keeping Fox at 3B, is also about a 2 win downgrade.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
This assumes that the 3B situation is not remedied
There are a lot of good 3B out there.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Wouldn't the fact that Cust got better as 2009 went on sorta go against the idea that his skills are declining (at such a fast rate)?
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 21, 2009 11:33 AM PST up reply actions
Not necessarily
If you were someone like PT (just to use a prominent example) and you didn’t hold much if any sway in such a limited sample size than Cust’s 2nd half upswing is just noise.
If you were willing to consider 2nd half performance, you’d have to show/prove that the numbers weren’t merely a product of regression. Let me make sure I phrase this right: Obviously some regression to the mean was in play during Cust’s 2nd half. How much of that was simply regression and how much was proof of the non-diminishing of Cust’s skills?
Here’s what we know for certain.
Cust will be 31 and has the type of skills/non-athletic profile of players that tend to “get old” quickly. We’ve got 3 consecutive years of declining performance. He is a liability with the glove and a not-good baserunner, meaning his only legitimate value is as a hitter. And last year Cust attempted to make changes in his hitting approach and it resulted in diminished production. If Cust cannot adapt to how he is being pitched than it is likely that more and more pitchers will find success against him.
That’s a lot of stuff arguing against keeping Cust.
The monster at the end of this blog.
So what if changing back to his old style of hitting is what caused the increase in production as the season went on?
That’s what I don’t get. There’s no way to find that out now.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Cust was attempting (as I recall... brain barely working) to improve his 2 strike approach
He was trying to improve a weakness and it didn’t take.
Put another way, in a game that demands constant adaption and adjustment to find success Jack Cust has struggled to adapt. He has also seen his production diminish as he’s spent more time in the league.
It is possible that those two sentences have absolutely no correlation to each other but on the surface they have the appearance of being related.
The monster at the end of this blog.
I don't remember exactly, but I thought it was just "cut down on strikeouts"
and not specifically his 2 strike approach.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I hate it when you use that word like that.
The literal meaning of the word makes no sense here, so clearly, even though you’re using it figuratively, it’s by way of reference to the process of terminating a pregnancy, and I find that icky, tasteless, and insensitive.
Perhaps to you young folks it sounds as bland as “scumbag” or “douche”, but it sure doesn’t to me.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
It's being used in the figurative sense of "something extremely unpleasant"
I am given to understand that the process of terminating a pregnancy is extremely unpleasant— and the metaphor makes more sense than calling it, let’s say, “a jaw abscess”, which is also extremely unpleasant (and I’ve personally experienced that one) but doesn’t quite have the same general currency…
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
rational people don't disagree on jaw abscesses.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 21, 2009 11:03 AM PST up reply actions
Does any rational person find an abortion pleasant?
Also, an acceptable definition of abortion is “monstrosity.” I think PT’s use fit that definition.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 21, 2009 11:37 AM PST up reply actions
rational people disagree on abortion.
and you know what I meant. Don’t be obstinate.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 21, 2009 1:03 PM PST up reply actions
For me this has nothing to do with political disagreement.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
it's most certainly NOT political.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 21, 2009 9:29 PM PST up reply actions
I don't disagree with your logic.
I just find the imagery too strong. I understand that you want to colorfully and emphatically describe how bad Cust’s defense is, but when you use that word it causes a strong visceral reaction in me (and, I suspect, in most women who have borne children). My sense is that you don’t realize just how powerfully that word affects us and as a result you’re using it too cavalierly.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
+1 on being worse and more expensive than Cust
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 20, 2009 2:53 PM PST up reply actions
This is a great post
I’m not sure if I agree that it is a good signing, but I appreciate the way you think and express your argument.
It’s not fun to weed through the academic grandstanding and puns on this site to get to something as thoughtful as this post. AN needs more people like notsellingjeans.
Yeah, well, that's just your opunion
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Liam and me...
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
I'd be offended if I weren't
too busy making reference to old “What’s Happening?” episodes and defending my years at U of C.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 11:08 AM PST up reply actions
Without the advent of cultural studies, my last 20 years would have been so much less amusing!
The day that “Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Philosophy” came out was a great day in academic history!
do you love Chuck Klosterman?
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 11:14 AM PST up reply actions
Here's a great quote from Klosterman's interview with Robert Plant circa 2002:
CK: On “Whole Lotta Love” you say you’re going to give some girl “every inch” of your love. But you’re British. Why don’t you use the Metric System?
RP: … I suppose today it would have to be “I’ll give you several centimeters of bliss.” But people of my generation know nothing about the metric system. I’m fortunate to say I still use inches – or at least that’s what my girlfriend says, and she’s twenty-nine.
(in CK IV, p. 99)
Plant in 2002
was 54.
Sigh.
I should’ve been a rock n roll star.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 11:33 AM PST up reply actions
86.7
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 11:41 AM PST up reply actions
15 chucks if Jack Cust could chuck wood.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 5:03 PM PST up reply actions
thanks for the kind words, Reg
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Dec 20, 2009 4:56 PM PST up reply actions
I don't think Crisp is particularly good or anything
But I don’t hate this move either. I don’t think it necessarily makes them better, but I don’t think it ultimately impedes the progress of the young guys (if anything, if helps the A’s justify keeping Carter/Taylor down a bit longer).
Then again, Geren does seem to have some Dusty Baker in him when it comes to favoring terrible veterans over promising young players, so who knows.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 20, 2009 11:13 AM PST up reply actions
I don't like the signing...
but there’s no way I can argue with any of what you just said, even though i think there are probably better options, it certainly does fill in a hole. I can definitely see Crisp as the Cabrera-type player of 2010.
I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)
Davis to royals?
KC needs a CF and on the cheap so could the A’s send Davis to KC for Callaspo. Beane gets the player he wants and subsitutes Davis with Crisp?
I've been hoping for this scenario
Ever since I heard about Coco signing.
Davis, Crisp, Hairston, Sweeney
Sweeney is the best bat in the group, and that isn’t saying much. I love my A’s, but I don’t see any of this making us any better next year.
And Cust,…he weighs more than his batting average.
With maybe the exception of Sweeney, they are all par or sub par.
Relax, all right? Don't try to strike everybody out. Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by mjrsea on Dec 20, 2009 9:26 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
WTF does this mean "And Cust,…he weighs more than his batting average."
Is that supposed to be some kind of critique?
Can you use this same “analysis” on Prince Fielder? What about CC Sabathia and his ERA?
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 20, 2009 11:14 AM PST up reply actions
fat people don't have souls, so they count less.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 11:16 AM PST up reply actions
that's why the fat bastards eat so much.
They’re trying to make up for that emptiness they feel inside.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 11:34 AM PST up reply actions
I think I must be a fat person waiting to come out
I can’t seem to stop eating lately….
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
you're good.
with my help, you can be the best.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 2:51 PM PST up reply actions
Skinny people don't have souls either.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
and redheads
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
They're mutants, you know.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Crisp/Davis/Sweeney starting OF
Under/Over on HR’s combined at 25?
Under. Under/Over on 3B combined at 25?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 20, 2009 4:47 PM PST up reply actions
Reprint of the comment (deleted for copyright reasons)
about Buster Olney’s article today on Coco Crisp.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Sorry
Sorry Nico and all, I thought a snippet of that size was allowed.
Trust me, you can count on us, we're always inconsistent
Tomorrow was like yesterday, today is always different
No prob. Better to reprint one key sentence and then link.
Anything more becomes iffy.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
CONSPIRACY!
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 10:54 AM PST up reply actions
This move is all about the defense...
And if we sign Beltre, our defense will be pretty outstanding all around.
Jack "The Must, Just has no Rust, ain't no Bust, after him the ladies Lust, turns pitchers into Dust, likes his pizza with no Crust" Cust
Does the MLBTR have special sources?
Usually its based on linked articles. But this crisp rumor started from their site originally, no article specifically mentioned any news on this.
I didn't understand that part either
I’ve never seen MLBTR cited as a source in itself.
Trust me, you can count on us, we're always inconsistent
Tomorrow was like yesterday, today is always different
This is no kidding,,,
Late last night someone created a Fanpost on THIS site with this person saying that they were friends with a guy who’s cousin was Coco Crisp or something like that.
At that point, MLBTraderumors didn’t have anything. Then the guy deleted the fanpost on this website and abotu 10 minutes or so later… MLBTraderumors was had a “source”.
I’m not sure if that’s MLBTraderumors’s source… but it very well could be.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
LONGORIA WANTS TO PLAY FOR A'S
my brother is a hairdresser in Florida, and it’s definitely true.
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
Actually, for the sake of accuracy, I deleted it (the user didn't)
The fanpost didn’t meet the minimum requirements for a fanpost, and it didn’t have a link to prove its veracity. It may have been true, but it still needed to be deleted.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Oh I agree 100%.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
CONSPIRACY!
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 20, 2009 10:55 AM PST up reply actions
Don't you have boxes to pack instead of going all Oliver Stone?
by LoneStranger on Dec 20, 2009 10:09 PM PST up reply actions
Nah.
I’m here another month.
I got cookies to bake, though.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 21, 2009 11:04 AM PST up reply actions
Well, in any case, it's on the main A's site now.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
The guy who runs MLBTR, Tim Dierkes,
has become well-connected enough that he personally gets a ton of information. He has regular contact with some beat writers, Law, etc.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Dec 20, 2009 10:16 AM PST up reply actions
I suppose one bit of good news is that other teams had interest
and Crisp is choosing Oakland. He must like crime!!!11111
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Maybe he's a Warriors fan?
Haha…I made a funny! Crime is much more likable.
"-i never said half the things i said." --Yogi Berra
Well this is dumb.
I hope that contract allows us to trade him at the break…
"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.
by DyeLongJustice on Dec 20, 2009 10:39 AM PST reply actions
this is almost certainly the prelude to something else
the question is, what. somebody’s getting traded. we simply have too many OFers. my guess is davis plus others (hairston?) to nab a SS/3B. otherwise, this signing makes very little sense. crisp is probably the CFer, and sweeney has one of the other spots.
Are the A's trying to pull an 09 Mariners?
If the A’s go after Beltre next, they would have above average defenders at every position:
LF/CF Rajai
LF/CF Crisp
RF Sweeney
3B Beltre
SS Pennington
2B Ellis
1B Barton
C Suzuki
Assuming Jake Fox never sees the field, that defense would be one of the best in the league, certainly different from last year’s travesty. And since the M’s seemingly improved tremendously due to defensive upgrades last offseason, this may not be such a bad strategy. I’m assuming Hairston is as good as gone as he has far more trade value than Rajai.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
Pennington: above-average D?
The rest, though, looks pretty awesome.
"To tell the truth, I'm not excited to go to Cleveland, but we have to. If I ever saw myself saying I'm excited going to Cleveland, I'd punch myself in the face, because I'm lying" - Ichiro
by Philip Christy on Dec 20, 2009 12:13 PM PST up reply actions
Eh, TotalZone and minor league scouting reports have said that Pennington is pretty good defensively.
But yeah, it seems like he’s looked less than impressive in the majors thus far.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 20, 2009 12:38 PM PST up reply actions
Well, if his D is above average,
then the A’s basically have an above average SS, yes? Based on his minor league numbers, he profiles to hit like an average ML SS, so above-average D means the total package is a bit above average.
"To tell the truth, I'm not excited to go to Cleveland, but we have to. If I ever saw myself saying I'm excited going to Cleveland, I'd punch myself in the face, because I'm lying" - Ichiro
by Philip Christy on Dec 20, 2009 2:16 PM PST up reply actions
That is very very optimistic.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 20, 2009 2:18 PM PST up reply actions
Hey, we're A's fans.
What else have we got?
"To tell the truth, I'm not excited to go to Cleveland, but we have to. If I ever saw myself saying I'm excited going to Cleveland, I'd punch myself in the face, because I'm lying" - Ichiro
by Philip Christy on Dec 20, 2009 2:24 PM PST up reply actions
Chone projections instead?
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 20, 2009 8:53 PM PST up reply actions
CHONE (based on TotalZone) thinks Pennington is below average.
He’s only above average relative to minor leaguers in TotalZone. That includes guys like Cardenas playing SS.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 20, 2009 4:49 PM PST up reply actions
He certainly has good range and a strong arm.
Wasn’t terribly accurate with that arm and booted some routine grounders, but the tools look like they’re there.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
I just checked his UZR for last year and was surprised it was negative
I remember it being in the positive for most of 2009. I guess I really stopped paying attention to the A’s over the last few weeks of the season.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 21, 2009 11:52 AM PST up reply actions
Insurance
This is insurance if Taylor is not ready for prime time. Crisp in center, Davis in right. If/When Taylor is ready, crisp is the 4th outfielder. Hairston and prospects for 3B or SS. Most likely 3B.
5 million dollars + an option is a bit more than "insurance" wouldn't you think?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I disagree
I think Billy is set to give Pennington a full time shot at SS. I don’t see them trying to fill that spot. 3B yes. RH pen guy, Rajai and cash for a starting 3B.
Baja been here
Officially on record as not liking this potential signing
Not one bit. With the other holes we have, that kind of cash if combined with one of our prospects could net a 3B. Taylor is MLB ready by all accounts. Taylor / Sweeney / Raj-Hairston is fine to start the season. This signing would be crazy. Crisp has not had a dcent year since 05 in Cleveland. Since then his OPS has hovered at .700.
Baja been here
Very Good Defense & Decent Pitching
Line-Up
1. Rajai Lf
2. Barton 1b
3. Beltre 3b
4. Chavez Dh
5. Ellis 2b
6. Sweeney Rf
7. Suzuki C.
8. Crisp Cf
9. Pennington Ss
Rotation
1p. Anderson, 2p. Braden, 3p. Cahill, 4p. Gonzalez, 5p. Mazzaro
Bullpen
Cl Bailey, Su Devine, Su Wuertz
I Like this. Very good defense for our very young pitching and the line-up is not that bad.
For one
You’re assuming Beltre will be acquired (not that his bat should be anywhere near a premium spot in a lineup). For another, you’re expecting Eric Chavez to play more than an inning of baseball next year. Even if both of those (unlikely) things happen, that’s the worst offense in the American League.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
I think Chavez will play more than an inning of baseball next year.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm getting tired of your blind optimism
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 20, 2009 6:55 PM PST up reply actions
Not that disagree
But that’s a bit harsh.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
It was, I have no doubt, intended to be humorous
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Never can be too sure with WC.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
True. I'm unpredictable.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 21, 2009 1:23 AM PST up reply actions
Unless the A's acquire a 3Bman
(Brandon Inge!!!!!), I fully expect Chavez to be the Opening Day 3Bman.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Anybody you can think of to play 3B?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Next you'll be saying he'll be standing vertically without knuckles dragging
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 20, 2009 7:08 PM PST up reply actions
I'm pretty sure the A's dugout is wheelchair accessible.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I really wouldn't put Crisp in center over Davis
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 21, 2009 12:16 PM PST up reply actions
Beane likes making deals with chicago teams
So i’m guessing Hairston to Cubs for IF Ryan Flaherty + LHP Sean Marshall.
Rajai kept around since he’s cheaper.
LFCrisp, CF Rajai,RF Sweeney
Olney says A’s still interested in Beltre. I assume their high offer will be similar to what they offered for furcal last yr.
We might not be able to reach 1000 comments about Jamey Carroll, but mabye we can do it for Coco!
Being and A’s fan is f’n pathetic right now.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
AND A'S FAN!!
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
well, poop.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
Being and A's fan
Didn’t Sartre write a book about that?
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
I'm pretty sure you're thinking of Heidegger...
"Life is a horizontal fall" -Jean Cocteau
by King Richard on Dec 22, 2009 5:51 PM PST up reply actions
Nope, I was thinking of Sartre
Le néant vs Zeit.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Sartre's no fun.
I prefere Camus et Samuel Beckett.
Sartre wrote too much.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 24, 2009 7:31 PM PST up reply actions
Awww, but some o' them comments is purty darn funny.
And ain’t the consensus that the As is gettin’ better this year, even if we’re not poised to take home no rings?
setting up trades with the Royals
just curious, how high are the Royals on Alex Gordon? I’m going to guess high, but with Mike Moustakas, how will they manage when Moustakas catches up? Position shift?
Hairston for Gordon!
This is Dayton Moore we’re talking about…
"To tell the truth, I'm not excited to go to Cleveland, but we have to. If I ever saw myself saying I'm excited going to Cleveland, I'd punch myself in the face, because I'm lying" - Ichiro
by Philip Christy on Dec 20, 2009 2:17 PM PST up reply actions
Sweeney for Gordon might be fair.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 20, 2009 4:49 PM PST up reply actions
Three words
Do. Not. Want.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
irrational fear of players with cornrows
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
would rather have Cust for the money we offered Coco
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 20, 2009 2:01 PM PST up reply actions
and we also have meloan and cassevah
We’re getting to be the all-food team here
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 20, 2009 2:18 PM PST up reply actions
Angels?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 20, 2009 7:28 PM PST up reply actions
Let's not dwell on the past-a
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Ryan Zucchini?
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
I see them keep Rajai over Hairston
I dont think they have any intention of paying him 3mill in arby.
At the moment, Rajai adds more value to this team. Unless Brown is ready in 2011 and crisp free agency, they will be looking for another cf if they trade Rajai. They seem intent on keeping Sweeney in RF. There was a decent market for hairston last summer, looking for a cheap righthanded bat. Teams might still view rajai as a 3 month fluke, which results in a lesser trade return.
Is Depth a bad thing?
Every year people complain that who is going to play/pitch etc because they have an excess. Every year everyone gets hurt and guys nobody thought we would count on play.
I hope it isnt the case with the OF, but this is Larry Davis’s Oakland A’s after all.
Still need another SP to round out the rotation.
So the AP article
Says Crisp would be in CF and they would be moving Rajai to a corner OF spot. Add in the taylor comments earlier by beane and its obvious what their plan is. Buy some time for taylor in AAA, so long hairston. Defensively next yr, Rajai and Sweeney could be in elite territory among corner OFs.
Taylor SHOULD start in AAA,
if only to preserve service time long enough to avoid Super-2 status. He hasn’t had enough AAA time to necessitate moving him faster. Let him come up in May if he’s ready, June/July if he’s not.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Buck, Patterson, Cunningham couldve filled in
To buy time for Taylor and saved $5million, but Beane is stubborn and wont let his crisp man crush for years go away. I’d say 2 of those 3 OFs could be gone too, likely buck and patterson
Screw service time, but he's got only a few AB above AA.
He should earn his way to the majors by mashing at AAA
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 20, 2009 4:50 PM PST up reply actions
NEW THREAD OPEN
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
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