A's Set to Trade Brett Wallace?
by baseballgirl on Dec 15, 2009 2:34 PM PST
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The A's are poised to trade highly touted third base prospect Brett Wallace to the Toronto Blue Jays in exchange for outfielder Michael Taylor, a source confirmed to the Bay Area News Group.
But first, other pieces must fall into place regarding the blockbuster three-way trade that would send pitcher Toronto ace Roy Halladay to the Philadelphia Phillies and Phillies lefty Cliff Lee to the Seattle Mariners.
Taylor, a top-rated prospect for Philadelphia, would first have to be shipped to Toronto as part of that deal before being flipped to Oakland for Wallace.
Details involving Halladay, who needed to pass a physical Tuesday and reportedly is negotiating a contract extension with Philadelphia, are thought to be holding up the A's trade.
There's no timetable for when Oakland could make an announcement.
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FIRST!
"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."
-Charles Manson
roomy
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Different outfield positions
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
No Cargon is a CF, Taylor is a power hitting, high average corner infieder
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
Outfielder.
Though if he was a third baseman…droooooooooooooool.
"You're just jealous. You wish you had a rally animal..." -CardinalWraith
If he played 3B, the Phils would keep him
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
he can
but is he in colorado?
I remember when he was here he spent most of his time in RF
Fuck you Bob Geren
by supermarc589 on Dec 15, 2009 2:43 PM PST up reply actions
gotcha
thanks for clearing that up
Fuck you Bob Geren
by supermarc589 on Dec 15, 2009 2:45 PM PST up reply actions
Why would it matter?
Losing Cargon was a sunk cost.
by eastbayexpat on Dec 15, 2009 2:40 PM PST up reply actions
Realizing that this sounds jackassish
I think a proper comparison would be whether or not Taylor projects to have more value than Brett Wallace, which is useful for evaluating the trade.
Comparing Taylor to Cargon is like comparing him to any other outfield prospect….
by eastbayexpat on Dec 15, 2009 2:46 PM PST up reply actions
I think supermarc might be looking at it this way
If we traded Cargon and small parts to get Holiday, and then traded Holiday for essentially Wallace and small parts (better parts than the Rockies deal IMO) then we essentially come away with more after prior to the Holiday trade.
not sure that the Rockies see Houston Street as a 'small part'
and nor did the A’s
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
well at the time of the trade
wasnt street our 3rd best reliever?
Last time I checked a team’s 3rd reliever who got demoted from closer would be a small part.
Im glad hes done well in Colorado, but at the time of the trade his value was really down.
Fuck you Bob Geren
by supermarc589 on Dec 15, 2009 3:14 PM PST up reply actions
Agreed
He was expensive, and not the closer. Small part.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 3:19 PM PST up reply actions
He also sucked during the playoffs
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
I hate to be that guy, but it's Huston.
Good point though. Even during his drop off I still saw him as a quality arm that was traded very low.
thats what i was trying to get at
Fuck you Bob Geren
by supermarc589 on Dec 15, 2009 3:13 PM PST up reply actions
I think my point was simply
That it’s not quite a symmetric comparison because you’re trading Greg Smith, Huston Street, and Carlos Gonzalez for half a year of Matt Holliday and Brett Wallace.
And even then the comparison isn’t quite complete because there are differing values for winning now vs. winning later.
Say for example after the 2008 trade, we won the WS in 2009 and we didn’t resign Holliday for 2010. Does that mean we got nothing for the trade or does that mean we got an awesome deal? I have no clue, personally. But I think it highlights the difficulty of trying to compare relative values.
by eastbayexpat on Dec 15, 2009 3:25 PM PST up reply actions
I see your point
But during the Holiday ordeal we were actually worse off than before the deal. I understand hindsight is 20/20, but right now we are basically where we were then.
or a roll...
Stewart: "What really needs to be clear is it wouldn't have mattered if there was an earthquake or not. We were going to beat the Giants.
Except that we got more too
Which are Clay Mortensen(son?) and Shane Peterson. Clay may or may not provide any value at the major league level, but the same can be said for Greg Smith. And Peterson looks like he could be a solid piece—although more likely to add value in a trade than in an Oakland jersey.
by nobodyinparticular on Dec 16, 2009 10:29 AM PST up reply actions
Does anybody actually think
CarGon would have developed in Oakland? I don’t.
by AgitationStation on Dec 15, 2009 2:54 PM PST up reply actions
I do
Of course, I think “development” of hitters is basically imaginary….
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Are his goats imaginary, too?
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 3:15 PM PST up reply actions
I think that's the goats of christmas past
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
Depends on what you mean by development
A hitter developing better plate discipline is rare, and is what I think you were referring to. However, players ARE able develop the ability to square up balls the other way, hit for power, and hit line drives (IMO, anyway). Gonzalez’s major flaw was that he had poor plate discipline, and that likely wasn’t going to improve.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 3:20 PM PST up reply actions
No, I really mean just about any kind of development (this is for hitters, mind you)
I think virtually all of what appears on the surface to be “hitting development” is one of three things:
1. Physical maturation
2. Practice
3. Improvement of athleticism through conditioning (body development)
Teams’ control over this is very, very limited. Most of it has to do with the body type and mental makeup of the player.
Once in a blue moon you’ll get a guy with a glaring, “fixable” problem like awful swing mechanics (which really should have been fixed in college or high school), but that’s the exception and not the rule. For the most part, the guy you draft is the guy you get (though it’ll take 5 or 6 years to know exactly what the guy you drafted is, in the first place).
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
it's interesting you say that teams have no control over those three things
it strikes me that 2 and 3 are things that teams could excercise a lot of influence over, while seeking to maximise the output of their minor league system.
Why not set players fitness targets? Why not assign practice schedules? It might not be popular, but then, they are employees, no?
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
Can't FORCE a guy to practice hard, or lay off the donuts...
I mean, what are you going to do, release him? Not likely. Not if the guy has any shot at being useful.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
no, that's true
but there are ways that a sporting organization can change the physical development of its players, to help maximise talent, minimise injury, etc.
I’m going to use a soccer example, here, so if your initials are LB, look away now.
When Arsene Wenger took over at Arsenal, he changed their training regimines to two a day (instead of ‘one in the morning, then down the pub’), he changed their diets, and he changed the way that the players trained.
I agree, you can’t force a player to do anything, but you have to think that most of these guys have got where they are on the back of a degree of hard work and overachieving, so if you can put better tools in their hands (practicising smarter, learning about better diets, that sort of thing), then looking at the organization in toto, it seems to me that you’d be more likely to get more from your prospects.
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
How much does that really vary?
Is there really much difference from team to team (in baseball—soccer is a different animal) in how much they practice and train?
I have no idea, honestly
My impression is that they don’t bother with it too much in the minors.
This impression – which could easily be wrong – is based on how much that has been made of Pablo Sandoval’s off season conditioning routine (ie, it seems unusual), and some comments made on the baseball america podcast about the poor facilities of certain minor league operations.
Strikes me that money invested there can have a larger impact down the line?
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
I see the problem
I would categorize those three things as “development”.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 10:17 PM PST up reply actions
Paul and I definitely disagree on this, but...
I think CarGon is an NL hitter, if there is such a thing. I think that hitters can get away with worse plate discipline in the NL, against the inferior pitching.
I have a theory that hacktastic guys like Juan Uribe suffer more from the NL-to-AL switch than the typical player. CarGon, a guy with a below-average career walk rate as a pro, did not profile as an elite AL hitter, in my opinion.
I think CarGon has landed in literally the best imaginable location for him – an NL home to showcase his line-drive triples stroke and his terrific arm in that massive outfield.
I wish him the best but I don’t think he ever would’ve been a terrific A’s player. He also was rumored to not take instruction well, and Beane is grooming Geren to be our version of Scoscia, a 15-year guy. It makes sense that he doesn’t want to keep around players that are showing Geren up.
Worst-case scenario, CarGon had a public blowup with Geren the following year, hit sub .220 at the big-league level, and sulked in AAA after another demotion – which is plausible, because no one exactly sung the praises of his character.
Street had a scary worst-case scenario, too. Street was injury prone the last few years with us – he could’ve ran into a serious arm injury with the A’s in ’09 and ended up having absolutely zero resale value to the team.
I’m totally fine with the logic that went into the Holliday the trade and the fruit it has reaped. C’est la vie.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Dec 15, 2009 3:54 PM PST up reply actions
Vladimir Guerrero, NL hitter
Having a public blow up with Geren just makes him smarter in my view.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 4:29 PM PST up reply actions
Beane is grooming Geren to be our version of Scoscia, a 15-year guy.
I believe that loud noise you just heard was thejd44 blowing out the back of his head with a Colt .45.
One other thing— I have to be honest, when I hear bad things about Latin players’ “characters”— especially if it has anything to do with poor teachability, “hotheadedness,” etc— well, I don’t believe a word of it. Not without real corroboration. It’s one of those invidious racial stereotypes which keeps popping up in people’s subconscious evaluations of players’ actions.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
IT WAS A FAKE SMILE
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I dunno, I heard an interview shortly after he called up
And was not impressed by his references to himself as “Carlos”. I agree with you a lot on the problem with that stereotype; I think in CarGone’s case there might have been a bit more to it than simple stereotypes.
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
I side with Notselling Jeans
CarGon’s 0-23 start while bating 0-2 w/Colorado, along with his disparaging remarks regarding the A’s organization: to my mind, corroborate the whispering rumors of him being more than an obdurate exiguous latin guy stereotype.
I have no doubts CarGon would be occupying the same organizational dog-house that Gallagher enjoyed if he had remained with the team.
There is a good argument to be made that it would have been just a matter of time till CarGon would have been auctioned off. While the Holiday trade wasn’t ideal, all three trade pieces were expendable to Beane.
Maybe CarGon is more of an evolved person than the cocky kid who states playing for Oakland was depressing because nobody had the desire to care to win. I just don’t see it……….
If a hispanic guy yells at you people are like "he's got a Latin temper!"
If I do it people are like “oh, he’s a jerk!”
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 10:18 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah,
That was a quote
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 16, 2009 2:08 PM PST up reply actions
I tried to reply with just a :) but the system won't allow that
Weird.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 16, 2009 12:08 PM PST up reply actions
Also, Street did in fact blow up at Geren in Detroit
in 2008. Remember, he ended up apologizing to Geren later on for acting like such a spoiled little magoot. :")
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
Just to round out the discussion
Were there any warning signs on Gregg Smith’s pitching mechanics that foreshadowed his arm/elbow problems that sidelined his season?
Additionally Street praised Colorado for helping him adjust his new stance on the mound, was this a dig at Oakland?
No, IIRC Street admitted that Young had wanted him to switch to the other end of the pitching rubber
but that he’d refused — Street said that getting traded was kind of a wake-up call, and he agreed to make the change afterwards.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
15+ Years of Geren
“tipping his hat” by once again being outperformed by the opposition. Say it isn’t so: He is no Scoscia…….
Trying to understand again...
With all the great things said about Taylor, why Toronto would want to do this deal? So they can have Wallace play 1b?!!!
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
They're pretty set in the OF.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
seems like a trade where both teams are pretty happy with what they're getting
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
With Taylor's massive frame..
why not alternate him between OF / 1B / DH? You don’t give up talent at a premium position to acquire easily replaced talent at lesser positions….at least I wouldn’t. Just doesn’t seem to make sense….although I love getting Taylor nonetheless…
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
by ST on Dec 15, 2009 2:47 PM PST up reply actions
Well the simple answer is that they believe that they are getting a 3B
We believe we are trading away a 1B.
by eastbayexpat on Dec 15, 2009 2:49 PM PST up reply actions
I think the Jays know...
…what they are getting.
I think they want to give him another 1/2 season in the minors, Overbay will be moved at the deadline, and WAllace will take over 1B in July/August.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Though I agree....
…that Taylor is a lot to give up for a stocky 1B with questions about how much power he will develop. Are they that bereft of 1B’s in their system?
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Is it that obvious?
Brett Wallace was sold to us as a 3B, he’s played there exclusively in AAA. Defensive statistics from the minors are…well, lacking.
The scouting reports I saw were relatively mixed on his hands and mobility. I think there was the perception here on AN that he could stick at 3B for a couple seasons.
Given that defense is hard to evaluate by eye, it isn;t hard to believe that the Jays could be operating under much more optimistic assumptions than the reset of us.
by eastbayexpat on Dec 15, 2009 2:58 PM PST up reply actions
I'll give you that...
…but the Cardinals essentially moved him because they felt he didn’t project as a 3B, and the A’s moving him basically admits the same thing since there is a black hole at third in the A’s system.
Are the Jays arrogant enough to think they are right and two previous MLB clubs were wrong?
Wouldn’t be the first time that’s happened, but it would be at least a little odd.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
It may not be arrogance so much as someone believing that he's an undervalued prospect
Which is a perfectly valid reason to make a trade or draft someone.
Maybe the Jay’s thought “Hey, he’s a year younger than Taylor and could develop into a better fielder.”
And to be honest, teams do so many quirky things that it’s tough for me to say what they were thinking. There’s so much imperfect information in the market thatI have to defer to the simplest explanation. The Jays seem to need a 3B, saw what they thought was a good 3B prospect, and traded for him.
by eastbayexpat on Dec 15, 2009 3:16 PM PST up reply actions
Entirely possible
And I wouldn’t be surprised if you were 100% right on that front.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
But the A's...
Simply don’t have a player like Taylor anywhere in there system. Carter comes closest, but the difference in defense is formidable.
No sense in putting him at 1B with the coming logjam there (Barton, Carter, Doolittle).
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Does Taylor become the A's top prospect?
If so, is it possible that both Taylor and Carter will be in the top 10? Top 25?
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
Depends on who you talk to...
…but I’ve seen a few reports concerned about Carter’s swing taking the final step at the big league level. Everything I’ve read on Taylor this morning seems to be pretty unanimous that he – at worst – grades out to a well about average corner outfielder.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Well *above*
Crap…even when I re-read what I write, I still end up with typos.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Yes
IMO.
Whereas I had Wallace at #3.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Agreed
This is a really big move and a good one. Michael Taylor is the kind of player the A’s haven’’t had since Canseco.
I mentioned this in the previous section...
…but I’m wondering if Taylor projects closer to Dye than Canseco?
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Sure maybe
But he has power and speed. He is above average in all the 7 skills. I think he will be better than Dye. But that is just me.
I think Flashfire has.
Surely, he has.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 3:41 PM PST up reply actions
He posted a couple pics earlier today in the previous thread, I believe.
They had his watermark.
by LoneStranger on Dec 15, 2009 3:43 PM PST up reply actions
he's all over the minor league shit.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 3:46 PM PST up reply actions
Really?
….
I thought you saw all those guys all over the country…
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 4:56 PM PST up reply actions
Not Taylor
The only time I saw any Lehigh Valley players was at the Triple-A All-Star Game in Portland and of the three I believe they had go he wasn’t among them. Might’ve still been in Double-A at the time and Reading’s in the Eastern League (I went to the Texas League game).
Last of the Ninth - Photography
I don't imagine anyone has seen him play as often as I have
But that probably clouds my judgment more than enhances it.
OK but I'm not changing my monicker to WaddellTaylor
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 4:30 PM PST up reply actions
I said in the previous thread
that he reminds me of a young Big Hurt, with the athletic ability coming closer to JD. Either way, he’s a tremendous specimen and I’m really excited about this trade.
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
The Big Owie?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
For what it's worth, Frank Thomas was a fantastic athlete 20 years ago
After all, his first major league hit was a triple!
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 16, 2009 12:22 PM PST up reply actions
Carter and Taylor's diff'rent strokes
It’s hard to project stuff like this, but there seems to be a certain level of concern among scouts that because of Taylor’s relatively flat swing, his power won’t evolve much beyond 20 homers or so. Compare this to a universal belief among scouts in Carter’s light-tower power. Of course, there’s still the question of Carter’s ability to hit breaking balls, but he’s shown great ability to make adjustments in the minors; I think that can continue.
At this point I think Taylor is less of a bust-risk at the MLB level, but Carter still has the higher ceiling as a hitter, barring some sort of fundamental change in stroke from Taylor.
I guess I’d take Taylor due to defense, but I think it’s very close.
that video of the HR he hit in his Cycle game
showed quite a nice uppercut…so maybe there’s potential.
I think those Taylor scouting reports are old
Apparently Stanford teaches that flat, line drive swing. It seems like Taylor is growing out of doing that all the time, and realizing he can hit the ball very far if he puts a bit of an uppercut on it.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 16, 2009 12:23 PM PST up reply actions
re
I prefer Taylor slightly, but he and Wallace are similar with the bat. They are both high average, medium power hitters. Taylor does control the zone a little better. You can’t simply look at the raw numbers and forget how agressively Wallace was promoted, or discount his pedigree.
by AgitationStation on Dec 15, 2009 2:52 PM PST up reply actions
I'm just looking forward...
….to having some quality right-handed bats in the lineup after too many years of too many lefties.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Hello hyperbole
Taylor has shown more power over his career but he also hasn’t been rushed as fast as Wallace. SSS is an issue but Wallace posted a .203 ISO in 44 games in Sacramento as a 22 year old, Taylor posted a .209 ISO in 30 games in AAA as a 23 year old.
I could see liking Taylor’s power potential more than Wallace’s but to say that Wallace is no where near Taylor in that department is probably a mistake.
nice breakdown of the megatrade
with who goes where mapped out…also contains the writer’s grades for each of the clubs.
Christ, what an A's-aholic
"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."
-Charles Manson
by kaweahkaweah on Dec 15, 2009 4:14 PM PST up reply actions
The only thing I care about
Is that the Mulder trade just added another player to it’s ever-expanding tree.
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Dec 15, 2009 2:58 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Mark "Abraham" Mulder?
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 3:22 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
A thought
A lot of folks have concluded that the A’s decided, sometime after trading for him, that Wallace cannot play 3b.
But maybe they always felt this way. After all, even as a 1b Wallace is a good prospect, and he was almost certainly the best return we could have gotten for Holliday.
Perhaps acquiring Wallace was the best use of Holliday, and it was always thought he would be flipped this winter.
"We've come a long way, and I'm not talking about Virginia Slims, either." - Art Howe
That's a valid point...
But I’m not sure even Billy Beane would “play the game” to that extent – trying to hide a guy in the system so they can sell another team a bill of goods later.
I think they were truly unclear on his long-term ability at 3rd, and were suddenly presented with an opportunity to grab a player in a 1-for-1 swap that they felt graded out better than Wallace.
In that scenario, I would think that you makes that trade every time.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
surplus of outfielders?
Now that the A’s have acquired Taylor they appear to have a surplus of outfielders….so who goes and who stays?
Please say its Hairston...
As much as I wanted some right handed bats in the lineup with some pop, I hated what I saw from him last season.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
You can't trust what he did for us
Due to him playing hurt basically the entire time. What he did in SD is much more conclusive as to the type of player he is, which isn’t all that great but still useful. I’d be perfectly happy with a Hairston/Buck platoon next season with both of them eventually replaced by Cunningham.
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Dec 15, 2009 3:28 PM PST up reply actions
Agreed he was hurt...
…but his 1st half in SD appeared to be the aberration. His 2nd half numbers in Oakland looked a lot like his career numbers.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
That's funny, I thought you didn't believe in "numbers"
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Dude, it's bad enough that
you guys all dogpiled on nodaclu in the other thread, but there’s no reason at all to further taunt him here.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Hypocrisy gets utterly no sympathy from me
None.
Sorry.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
I'd still like to give him at least the 1st half next season
And hopefully he can build up some value for a deadline deal.
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Dec 15, 2009 11:09 PM PST up reply actions
Sweeney
He’s valuable. Why do you want him gone?
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 3:19 PM PST up reply actions
agreed
i think sweeny and suzuki have been the A’s 2 most consistent hitters over the past 2 years. They play hard and almost everyday
i think thats valuable
Fuck you Bob Geren
by supermarc589 on Dec 15, 2009 3:21 PM PST up reply actions
Because he is valuable and able to bring a return
What the heck do the A’s get out of trading Cunningham at this point?
I'd say
package buck with a lower level prospect and see if we can get a descent 3B.
for whatever reason the A’s brass hates buck so i never see him getting a regular chance, so we might as well trade him
Fuck you Bob Geren
by supermarc589 on Dec 15, 2009 3:22 PM PST up reply actions
Trade
Package some people together instead of giving up Sweeney. I don’t think we can match his WAR.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 3:23 PM PST up reply actions
I don't know about that
What is WAR playing CF? I imagine the A’s will need to put Chris Carter in Left, Taylor in Right and Sweeney in CF.
As I type this I think it could also be time to sell high on Rajai.
Carter
I’d rather just have him play designated hitter with the outfielders being Taylor, Davis and Sweeney. I think it would maximize our talent.
Plus, I think Carter starts 2010 in Sacramento.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 3:28 PM PST up reply actions
I'm highly skeptical
Sweeney himself can match his WAR.
we in the losin baseball binness. and cousin, binness is a boomin.
by walk off bunt on Dec 15, 2009 4:21 PM PST up reply actions
So you're saying that you hope Buck and Sweeney are "goers" (nudge-nudge)?
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Watch this
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
knowhatimean?
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 4:15 PM PST up reply actions
Wicked! You're wicked!
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I actually like Sweeney as...
….a 4th outfielder.
And who’s the backup center fielder in that instance? As great a 2nd half as Davis had, I’m not quite convinced yet that he will follow it up at the same level.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Sweeney
Right field is basically perfect for Sweeney. How can you like him as only a fourth outfielder? He’s arguably our best.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 3:26 PM PST up reply actions
Left Field
I think that’s where Taylor is going because I don’t think Carter will play there.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 3:29 PM PST up reply actions
I want an arm in RF
Taylor has one. I think that’s something that is being overlooked here, now that you mention it.
This trade probably blocks RF as a potential option for Carter, which makes the whole DH/1B mess even more intriguing.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Arm
Sweeney has one.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 3:33 PM PST up reply actions
SIGN PETE GRAY NOW!!!
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Designated Hitter
I don’t think it’s a mess. Jake Fox and Scott Hairston look like possible options. Carter can play there with Taylor, Davis and Sweeney in the outfield.
At first base, that leaves Daric Barton. If that doesn’t work out, Carter can shift over there.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 3:34 PM PST up reply actions
Where does Doolittle go?
Until he got hurt, he was actually ahead of Carter at the beginning of last season?
Just too many 1B/DH types in the system right now.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Doolittle
Carter was so good, I think Doolittle has been passed up. I don’t either Carter or Doolittle should be on the team to start the 2010 season, but Doolittle should be behind Carter if you ask me.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 3:37 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with you on this
but come June it is possible that the A’s have Doolittle and Carter and Taylor to find at bats for.
Doolittle missed nearly all of last season
I’d be shocked if he were ready to be called up in June.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
when was Doolittle injured?
he didn’t play in the AFL. I was hoping to see him play for the first time.
by sf drift king on Dec 15, 2009 5:03 PM PST up reply actions
Wow
Last time I checked, it was involved in American League lineup cards.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 3:45 PM PST up reply actions
Pitchers are not position players
position players play in the field, but are not pitchers.
A DH does not play a position. He is batting in place of another player (the pitcher).
Whatever
I guess I just don’t get it.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 3:56 PM PST up reply actions
I'm not sure I see where you called DH a position.
by LoneStranger on Dec 15, 2009 3:58 PM PST up reply actions
my point was that a DH is something that in the AL
is used to get an extra bat in, and to avoid having your worst player (usually the pitcher) bat. Some teams use it to rotate some of their position players, to keep their bats in the lineup while giving them a break from playing in the field. Others use it for a hitter who is unable to play in the field due to age, injuries, etc. But to designated a young player as a DH is a poor use of the roster. At the very least you want every position player to be able to handle some position on the field.
“DH” should not be seen as a position because there is no position in the field for a DH. The DH does not play in the field.
Hopefully that clears up any confusion about what I meant.
Disagree
But to designated a young player as a DH is a poor use of the roster.
If it makes your lineup better, I think it’s fine.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 4:04 PM PST up reply actions
well, reasonable people can disagree
and do – not only fans like us but players, coaches and other professional baseball people.
Agreed Oakland SI
DH is the easiest position to fill. If you can put a glove on them and they don’t look Cust like you do it. It just makes your line-up that much better!
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Dec 15, 2009 4:13 PM PST up reply actions
Ok, the part about putting a young player in DH was not in your previous post.
I agree, it’s not desirable, but if he’s the best hitter of the guys not already in the field, then you compare him defensively to the guy(s) who play his position(s). If he’s better on defense, then you switch them and put the worse guy in DH. Or you trade for a better bat.
by LoneStranger on Dec 15, 2009 4:21 PM PST up reply actions
I agree, put him in the lineup every day
but not DH every day. At his age it doesn’t make sense to me to completely give up on his playing in the field.
DH is very much a position
It has a defined skill-set that some people are significantly (like 10 runs a season difference) better at than others.
This is the reason I thought Carter should have been DHing all season this year. Can he handle it? If so, great. If not, you have to hide him on the field somewhere. But I think he’s much more likely to stick at DH than at a field position.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
There's a DH skill that's worth up to 10 runs?
Did someone do a study on this? Thanks.
I _think_ he's referencing the fact that...
…A lot of players (like Frank Thomas) see their numbers drop precipitously from the DH position in comparison to when they play the field. The skill he is referencing I would think is the ability to hit at the same high-caliber while DH’ing as while playing the field.
Whether or not this is a true skill, I don’t know but I tend to take Paul’s words on those topics because he does the studying ;-). I had been under the impression that a lot of this is explained by health issues; i.e. it makes sense a player’s offensive numbers decline when they play DH because typically players slide to DH when they have aged or have been injured too much to play the field.
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
There's a "DH penalty"
Which means that players tend to hit worse at DH than they do in the field. And, yeah, some of this likely due to the fact that some teams DH guys when they’re not healthy enough to play the field.
But I’ve never seen anything that suggests major league players possess varying skill at beating the DH penalty. I’d love to see Paul’s study that major leaguers vary by up to 10 runs per season at this skill.
I seem to be referencing Tango's The Book a whole lot recently.
They found that pinch hitters suffer a large drop in effectiveness when coming off the bench, and that it’s not consistent (as in, there aren’t good pinch hitters and bad pinch hitters). Designated hitters, on the other hand, suffer a similar drop in effectiveness (at around half-strength), but the data seems to show a consistent DH skill.
I haven’t seen the study that produced the 10 runs factor, though.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
The Book sez that players seem to vary
in how much the DH Penalty affects them, but that such variation could just be a natural result of the selective use of slightly injured players to DH. They say their data doesn’t allow a real analysis of the question, so they come to no conclusions.
They say the DH penalty is about half as large as the PH penalty—which is about 20 runs per 600 AB. I’m guessing this is where Paul got the 10 runs from, but The Book is pretty clear about not having the data to support such a claim.
Fair enough.
I interpreted that paragraph as “our data doesn’t support a strict conclusion but there’s definitely something going on there which suggests a DH skill”, and that they parenthetically offer the mildly injured hypothesis as an alternative explanation. In either case, unless further studies have been done, nothing’s been set in stone.
I’m curious now as to whether Paul eyeballed the 10 runs factor from the PH penalty as you say, or if he got it from another further study.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
The DH penalty that they assign is only 5 runs
representing a “splitting of the difference” between 10 runs and zero runs (some players suffering the full penalty, others no penalty, most presumably somewhere in between).
The true-talent DH positional adjustment is -22.5 runs, but the applied penalty is only 17.5 runs.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Even if it were a skill, which I'm not convinced of,
What would we have learned by DHing Carter all year? If he put up a .900 OPS, would you somehow know that it would have been higher had he not been a DH?
If a DH skill exists, it would take several years of splitting time at DH before we could say a player possessed such a skill.
There’s no evidence that avoiding the DH penalty is a learned skill, but there’s a lot of evidence that fielding 1B and LF is something that can improve with practice.
You're right, there's no way to do an isolated experiment
If he underplays his projections, it could be because of DHing, or because he’s just not that good.
Still, at least they could get a sense of whether he’s psychologically comfortable doing it long-term or not. If he finds himself unable to stay “in the game” as a DH, then you probably have to find somewhere else to hide him.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
The reason that study is going to always be flawed
The best way to determine the possibility of a “DH skill” is to look at players who played significant time in the field and at DH. But this is IMPOSSIBLE.
Frank Thomas played first when he was young and good and healthy. Of COURSE those numbers will be better than later in his career. What about a guy like Cust, who splits time between the two? Well, 70 or so games a year in each spot is too small of a sample to get a good read.
I tend to think, logically, that a player who a full-time DH would begin to overcome that penalty.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 16, 2009 12:37 PM PST up reply actions
Edgar Martinez
played third when he was young and [not as] good and healthy. Of COURSE those numbers will be better [worse] than later in his career.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Yeah one thing I wonder is
Career long DH’s like Harold Baines and Edgar Martinez alone who had zillions of at-bats could really skew that average, right?
I don’t buy that Martinez and Baines had DH skill— Martinez simply came up (and came up old) as a 3B and by the time he got the hang of the major league game he found himself DHing.
Psychologically for some players I would think it might even be advantageous to DH if they suck in the field and it causes anxiety/takes away time from the cages.
I find it hard to believe there is a real DH skill— It’s so hard to study, but my intuition says anybody who settles in at DH will eventually overcome the “penalty” (and if the penalty sticks its due to declining skill/health).
Furthermore, the sample size of guys who DH regularly in their prime is like Harold Baines and Travis Hafner.
Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.
There's certainly logic on both sides
DHing might make it hard to move past bad ABs (because you make no other contribution), but it might also keep you fresh all season long.
DHing might make it impossible to stay in the game (because you’re playing for 5-20 minutes) but it might allow you to hone your hitting skill because you don’t have to spend time on infield drills.
We can go back and forth (and, as people point out) we can’t do a satisfactory study. We can also cherry-pick examples. Hopefully someday a (far) better sabr type than us can resolve this in a persuasive way.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
sorry, I don't see how not playing in the field
can be considered a “position.”
But I’m fine with different opinions.
When they're out on the field, your position is on the bench.
Zing!
by LoneStranger on Dec 16, 2009 9:52 AM PST up reply actions
What a wonderful contribution to the discussion.
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
If Taylor is mlb ready he's the RF
Sweeney shifts back to CF.
Hairston traded or build up value till 2010 trade deadline.
Rajai back to one of the better 4th OFs in baseball.
Buck is back to collecting shopping carts at walmart in sacramento
Question(s)
- Is Chris Carter playing left field?
- If Carter plays left field, wouldn’t him being the designated hitter maximize our talents with Taylor, Davis and Sweeney in the outfield?
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 3:32 PM PST up reply actions
Answers
1. Yes. At elast off the bat. Ther eis no way Beane and Forst let a player that young play DH on a regular basis.
2. I don’t think so. Davis had a breakout half season as a 28 year old. Sweeney had a much high UZR/150 than he had the previous year playing roughly the same amount of games between CF and RF. They could both be mirage, they certainly shouldn’t be expected to be what they continue to do. If Sweeney has a UZR/150 of 7 like 2008 and a wOBA of 330, what is his WAR?
Carter
Shouldn’t he start 2010 in Sacramento?
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 3:46 PM PST up reply actions
Disagree
Sweeney shouldn’t go anywhere. If anybody is getting bumped for Carter, it should be Barton.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 3:48 PM PST up reply actions
Cool
Let’s see how it plays out. Honestly I could see Sweeney playing Center Field on a team with Carter and Taylor in the lineup as the overall offense will be better. I also expect Sweeney and Taylor to be roughly equivalent outfielders. Taylor is a big guy, btu he is also very fast and good defensive outfielder with an above average arm.
Which would probably put Sweeney on the DL
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
I think part of the reason that Sweeney is undervalued
is that his body deceives some people. He looks like he should hit for a lot of power, and when he doesn’t, people think that what is left is worthless.
Also, on defence, he makes good jumps, and covers ground easily, so never looks as if he is putting in ‘max effort’, even though he’s very good at things like ‘running to the ball’ and ‘catching the ball’.
A victim of his own success?
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
I just don't think....
Sweeney projects as a starting outfielder on a championship caliber team. I know we aren’t close to being one yet, but on a quality club, his plus defense, his average speed on the base paths, his .280 / no power bat, and a growing injury history make him a guy I’d really like to have on my bench, but not a guy I want out there for 162 games.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
You're incorrect.
But let’s not bother using silly ol stats to prove that, or anything.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
No reason to be an asshole
You have your way. I have mine.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
The Phillies in general...
…and Charlie Manuel in particular, don’t put a lot of weight into sabermetrics, and the last time I checked, the Phillies didn’t suck.
Not surprisingly the saber-meisters don’t like the deal for the Phillies. Games are still won on the field, not in a book.
Take your religion somewhere else.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
What the hell are you talking about?
The Phillies are full of awesome players. Sabermetrics agree with that!!!
Jesus, posters like you are fucking annoying. What the hell are you trying to prove?
BTW, the common insult for people making fun of sabermetrics is spreadsheet and not book. You should have said “games are won on the field, not in a spreadsheet.”
That should help next time you channel Joe Morgan.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I'm so glad I'm not in the middle of the flamewar this time...
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
I actually think it's funny that I'm playing the part of the stat geek here.
I’m probably the dumbest stat geek on this blog.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
It's not about being a math nerd though
It’s about recognizing bullshit when you see it. It’s about not being afraid of new ideas.
I can’t do any of the complicated math either (I could, if I tried, but I don’t care to try). But the willingness to actually learn and understand is the important thing. When somebody comes right out and says “I don’t give a flying fuck what wins games, you annoying whippersnappers!” and then in the next breath says “I don’t think you can win (enough games to win a championship) with Ryan Sweeney!” you are a hypocritical turd. That statement might actually be correct, but coming from someone who just said the first statement, it means absolutely nothing.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 16, 2009 12:44 PM PST up reply actions
Indeed........
“All we are saying, is give Chance a piece….”
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
But it's hard to stay out, isn't it?
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 16, 2009 12:41 PM PST up reply actions
+1 for catharsis
"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."
by LongLiveLangerhans on Dec 15, 2009 5:58 PM PST up reply actions
I tried to resist getting into this...
But “take your religion somewhere else”? Wow.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
by danmerqury on Dec 15, 2009 3:46 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
yeah. wow.
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
As someone who has been accused of trying to drive people from the site...
…this is not the kind of thing we need here.
There’s room for people with different opinions – even when it gets to the point of a heated argument – without telling someone to leave.
You also haven’t posted a whole lot here so even further, you shouldn’t be saying stuff like this.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Dec 15, 2009 5:01 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
OMFG STOP TRYING TO DRIVE HIM AWAY
Wait… I did that wrong, huh
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I'm always an asshole. Don't get all flattered and stuff.
Ryan Sweeney was way better than you think he was last year. That’s basically all there is to it, whether you want to believe it or not.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
What are YOU trying to prove?!?
And why do you think I’m annoying?
GAMES ARE WON ON THE FUCKING FIELD!!!!
If you don’t like the way I look at the game, then STFU and quit replying. That’s exactly what religious nutjobs do when they don’t get their way.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
I love the off-season.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 3:48 PM PST up reply actions
Stewart: "What really needs to be clear is it wouldn't have mattered if there was an earthquake or not. We were going to beat the Giants.
Heh. Do'h.
Stewart: "What really needs to be clear is it wouldn't have mattered if there was an earthquake or not. We were going to beat the Giants.
Actually I'm not sure what I'm more pissed about...
…his total inability to let me see the game my own way without insulting me and instituting his opinions on me….
…..or his comparing me to Joe Morgan. Now that’s SERIOUSLY offensive. ;)
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Who called who a religious nutjob, again?
Extra points for that one since I’m a borderline antitheist, too.
Look — I don’t give a fuck how you see the game, you’re free to do whatever you want. However, if you expect to post shit like you’ve been posting without having any ability to back it up at all, you’d better also expect to get called on it.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I can't say I've ever been called a religious nutjob before.
Wheeeee!
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
This is just wrong.
And you’re stupid for saying it.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 3:51 PM PST up reply actions
there's no need to discuss this.
old news.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 4:02 PM PST up reply actions
Dammit, this is a great image and someone won't let me steal it...
Stewart: "What really needs to be clear is it wouldn't have mattered if there was an earthquake or not. We were going to beat the Giants.
Here's a fun fact
Melky Cabrera: .274/.336/.416, average OF defense at best
Ryan Sweeney: .293/.348/.407, fantastic OF defense
But Ryan Sweeney wouldn’t start on a championship caliber team. Good call.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
And injured the past 2 seasons...
He’s developing an injury history, and I don’t want to count on a guy like that long term. Repeated knee in juries in your mid-20’s doesn’t bode well for the long term.
I can keep doing this all day long. Leave it alone.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
You guys should probably just avoid each other in threads
Plenty of people who visit here have learned to do that with one or two specific users over time.
You both see the game through very different lenses. It’s not worth insulting each other and violating the CVGs over.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Dec 15, 2009 4:13 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Amount of times Ryan Sweeney has been DL'd with a knee injury in his career:
one.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Amount of games missed because of a Knee Injury??? I don’t know, but I think it took the A’s Medical Team about 2 – 3 weeks to figure it out.
by Colorado Fan on Dec 15, 2009 5:10 PM PST up reply actions
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Dec 15, 2009 5:28 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I wish there was such a thing as an anti-megaphone
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
I guess my reference was too vague
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Look up
or go visit, the museum of torture in san diego. Good stuff
Ooo! Piece of candy!
by ChickenStanley on Dec 16, 2009 2:14 AM PST up reply actions
You do realize that you, the one who says things with no proof to back it up, are the one who is a lot closer to being a "religious nutjob"
Right? Please tell me you see that.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 16, 2009 12:45 PM PST up reply actions
I think there's legitimate doubt about how likely he is to repeat his UZR from 09, though
The consensus seems to be that you need a 2-season sample of fielding stats to make up for SSS.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Three, for correctness's sake.
Or, in other words, one season of UZR is about as reliable as a third-season’s worth of OPS. Definitely useful in some capacity, but it wouldn’t really be considered as definite.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
3 - thanks
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Well, his previous season was pretty freaking awesome, too.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 16, 2009 12:45 PM PST up reply actions
To be fair
(Certainly not what nodaclu is going for, by the way) Sweeney was way better than some might think last year because he had an otherwordly defensive season. If that’s not his true talent level, he’s a lot worse than some of us are building him up to be.
His batting lines in 08 and 09 aren’t all that different. The value came from the glove, and I’m not sure we can be positive he’s got that valuable a glove going forward.
we in the losin baseball binness. and cousin, binness is a boomin.
by walk off bunt on Dec 15, 2009 4:28 PM PST up reply actions
Agreed.
He probably won’t be otherworldly on defense again, but he’ll also be a year old and should be a better hitter, which will offset some of the decreased defensive value.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
those twins Beane had last year?
hitting cleanup 2011
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
And traded for newborn triplets in 2013.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 16, 2009 12:46 PM PST up reply actions
You're critically undervaluing his defense
Plenty of championship caliber clubs have players less valuable than Ryan Sweeney. See Melky Cabrera who played 154 games for the yankees in 2009.
Ryan Sweeney is an extremely high quality defensive right fielder and an average bat.
That puts him firmly at Above average. As long as I’m generating offense from other spots, Sweeney is my guy.
by eastbayexpat on Dec 15, 2009 3:36 PM PST up reply actions
So you don't mind the occasional rumblings
That he’s a “me first” guy and a clubhouse cancer?
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
I find most of those stories to be completely disingenuous
I think you can trace the source of most of them to a reporter who is too lazy to find a real story.
Nick swisher was called a clubhouse cancer on the White Sox. Consider that for a moment.
by eastbayexpat on Dec 15, 2009 3:43 PM PST up reply actions
Factors like "me first" and "clubhouse cancer" only come into play
if you have a choice between two perfectly identical players, one nice, one douchebag. It’s such a nonfactor.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
Tell that to...
Mr. Al “I don’t believe in Chemistry” Davis.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
You're using a football Owner to prove a point about baseball?
by eastbayexpat on Dec 15, 2009 3:48 PM PST up reply actions
When it comes to professional sports...
…chemistry is chemistry.
I guess I’ll save the Kings reference, since it’s becoming pretty clear that people who don’t subscribe to “groupthink” aren’t welcome here.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Ugh, are you really doing this?
You can’t really call it “groupthink” and a “religion” when there’s a mountain of mathematical proofs sitting here.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
by danmerqury on Dec 15, 2009 3:57 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Sure you can...
“Secular humanism: it’s a religion!”
I wish I was making this up.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Furthermore, as a religious person
..I disagree that scientific evidence and religious faith are mutually exclusive.
Frankly, you could probably classify lots of movements that don’t profess faith in any specific deity (or even outright reject the existence of a god) as religions.
That’s about all I’ll say on the matter.
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
This made me laugh
…his total inability to let me see the game my own way without insulting me and instituting his opinions on me.
by eastbayexpat on Dec 15, 2009 3:59 PM PST up reply actions
And also
I guess I’ll save the Kings reference, since it’s becoming pretty clear that people who don’t subscribe to "groupthink" aren’t welcome here.
by eastbayexpat on Dec 15, 2009 4:00 PM PST up reply actions
Why does that makes you laugh?
Show me where opinions outside of sabermetrics are welcomed, or even tolerated here?
You all look at baseball one way, and anyone who chooses to look at it differently than you is “stupid”.
How exactly is that not groupthink?
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
If someone came up to me and started talking about our flat Earth
it doesn’t make the round Earth theory “groupthink”.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
by danmerqury on Dec 15, 2009 4:02 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Tarry not on the subject, danmerqury
For the heathen will surely be cleansed by the hellefire cast downe upon him by Bill James Moste High, praise his name.
by Joey C. on Dec 15, 2009 4:07 PM PST up reply actions 5 recs
Amen.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
Yes.
"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."
by LongLiveLangerhans on Dec 15, 2009 6:15 PM PST up reply actions
You make a great point
The only thing I will say in defense of that is, if I looked at baseball the way you guys do, I would absolutely, positively HATE it.
I mean, if I wanted to get that deep into numbers, I would have become a FORTRAN programmer. I just love to watch the game I played competitively into high school, and I truly hate the idea of breaking down a game involving humans and round objects into a not-quite-perfect science. It takes the human-ness of the game away from me.
That’s all I’ll say about it. It’s clear I don’t belong in with this group of fans. So I’ll let you guys continue to debate UZR, and I’ll be one of the far too few people in the stand actually enjoying the GAME of baseball.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
why does it take the 'human-ness' away?
statistics like this only work on a large scale – there’s no predicting with any degree of accuracy what will happen in a particular game, inning or pitch. Unless it’s Bobby Crosby getting ready to whiff at a slider, the element of surprise and excitement, that thrill of seeing something you’ve never seen before, tha’ll always be there.
Stats have nothing to do with that. Except for the one that says ’Nothing’s maximum beer consumption in one hour before a game = 6 cans of tecate above replacement’
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
by bobnothing on Dec 15, 2009 4:13 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
That's just a personal thing I guess..
For me, if I go too deep into stats, then suddenly the human equation disappears. And the human quotient matters, as Billy found out when he brought Milton Bradley into the fold. If I do that, I no longer see Crosby, all I see are OPS and UZR and WAR. I prefer to look at the headstrong dude who never became quite as good as he thought he was, who never adjusted to sliders on the outer half of the plate.
For me, that’s just a much more enjoyable way of looking at a guy like Crosby.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
my favorite way of looking at Crosby
is when he’s wearing Pirates shirt
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
Hey-o!
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
That's some savage drinking
72 fluid ounces in an hour?
Wait, no, it’s above replacement level. Replacement level has to be at least a can. So more like 84 fluid ounces. That’s larger than the capacity of the human stomach.
You must pump well, or something.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
they come in small cans
also, it might have been funnier if mine had read
‘…above replacement liver’
rather than level.
none of it is true, really, though; I was exagerating for comic effect.
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
the gag was well placed in a thoughtful comment
liver would have been marginally funnier, but the pause you would have taken to think of it would negate the benefit.
also, the number you chose to exagerate was a little off because people associate beer too closely with the #6.
All in all B+/A- on the gag.
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
Look at the way you started and ended this post
The only thing I will say in defense of that is, if I looked at baseball the way you guys do, I would absolutely, positively HATE it.
There is nothing wrong with this, and while I might try to convince you that a greater understanding of these stats might enhance, rather then detract, from your enjoyment — ultimately it is your call.
That’s all I’ll say about it. It’s clear I don’t belong in with this group of fans. So I’ll let you guys continue to debate UZR, and I’ll be one of the far too few people in the stand actually enjoying the GAME of baseball.
Here is where you are just plain wrong, and you should really try and re-think this opinion. Just because I like to use advanced metrics to help me evaluate players on the field, is no reason to assume I cannot also go to a game and enjoy it the same as you. I try and go to the ballpark any time I am in a new city. I love the roar of the crowd. I love the fact that guys like Marco Scutaro can defy all odds and come up with a ridiculous number of game winning hits. Do I know intellectually it is mostly luck? Sure, but when I watch it does it change how I feel about it emotionally? Not at all.
Do not make assumptions on how I enjoy baseball. It is insulting and will get the kind of responses you are receiving in this fan post.
by AsFanInLA on Dec 15, 2009 4:24 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Well since I can't address every fan...
…on this site personally, I have little choice but to look at the lowest attendance in MLB (yes, a stat) and combine it with this being one of the highest-trafficked blogs in the SB network, and draw a logical, stats-based conclusion that the majority of the A’s fans that are passionately defending their positions here aren’t in the seats.
Again, I’m apologizing all over the board to people who are personally offended by my position. But you are the exception to the rule.
The stats – unfortunately – back that up.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
I think you're generalization of this blog is wrong.
There is much, much more to this site than Sabermetrics, and lots of people feel the same way you do about advanced statistics. This doesn’t stop them from participating.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
by travdog6 on Dec 15, 2009 4:41 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
This is nearly the opposite of logic.
I have little choice but to look at the lowest attendance in MLB (yes, a stat) and combine it with this being one of the highest-trafficked blogs in the SB network, and draw a logical, stats-based conclusion that the majority of the A’s fans that are passionately defending their positions here aren’t in the seats.
This is not an appropriate logical inference. It’s entirely possible that every single person who who writes regularly on this blog is in attendance at every game, and still the A’s maintain one of the lowest attendance figures.
Or:
Of all animals on Earth, the spotted owl is one of the least common. In the woods near my house, spotted owls are very common. Therefore, the spotted owls in the woods near my house are not spotted owls.
It’s not a perfect analogy, but it resembles the same logical error that you are making above. These are two different subsets, and higher representation in one grouping does not mean that the subsets are exclusive of each other.
"Tarry not on the subject, danmerqury, for the heathen will surely be cleansed by the hellefire cast downe upon him by Bill James Moste High, praise his name."
by LongLiveLangerhans on Dec 15, 2009 6:46 PM PST up reply actions
I live in Chicago
Sorry for not attending the Coliseum on a regular basis.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 16, 2009 1:03 PM PST up reply actions
For the love of all that is holy
Please stop insinuating those of us who happen to put value into a metric like UZR don’t like the game.
I quite like watching baseball. I also quite like understanding what the events on the field mean in terms of real value when I get back home.
we in the losin baseball binness. and cousin, binness is a boomin.
by walk off bunt on Dec 15, 2009 4:34 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I'm hardly the biggest stat guy around, but...
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Dec 15, 2009 5:06 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Interesting
I find that advanced stats actually improve my enjoyment of the “GAME of baseball”. It’s a lot easier to appreciate and enjoy a player like Jack Cust when I realize that I shouldn’t have an aneurysm every time he strikes out. Or every time a Matt Holliday fails to smile. Or every time a Ryan Sweeney projects invisible Idontgiveadammarays at his teammates.
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
Man, that's totally fine and understandable
What is pissing people off here is that you say this totally reasonable thing in one breath, then ARGUE WITH PEOPLE ABOUT HOW GOOD PLAYERS ARE.
You don’t realize that when you take the “I want to enjoy the beauty of the game” perspective, you forfeit the right and ability to objectively discuss the inner workings of the value og players?
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 16, 2009 12:52 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t think either I’ve done anything but respectfully disagree with you. I challenged you to validate your views.
You accused me of group think, something I find highly insulting. I was just calling your complaint for fair treatment to light, because you may dish it but you certainly can’t take it.
by eastbayexpat on Dec 15, 2009 4:07 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I know the threads are hard to follow...
…but I was pretty calmly stating my own opinons (and that’s all they are) until mikev took it upon himself to start the veiled insults.
I didn’t attack you personally, but if my “groupthink” statement offended you to that degree, then I apologize to you for it.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
..and there's definitely more than one camp
on this site. Not everyone here is as insane as these stat heads.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 4:12 PM PST up reply actions
yeah, some of us just like to tell crap jokes
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
and poke fun at people for their choice of cuisine.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 4:14 PM PST up reply actions
and their poor penmanship.
and manner of dressing.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
well,
you DO dress in the manner of male prostitute.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 4:18 PM PST up reply actions
wow, you sound like my mother
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
I thought most of the folks here came for the
zombie talk….????
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
Every time somebody mentions zombies, I think I'm going to plug my site
I’ll probably be banned for spamming, but, like, peep the sig line, bitches!
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 16, 2009 1:05 PM PST up reply actions
LOL
And stats have their place. I don’t deny that for a second, But everything in life can be taken to extremes. And it feels like that in here more often than not.
I just have a hard time understanding why so many people demand that I validate something that is nothing more than an opinion. This is a baseball site, not the New England Journal of Medicine.
It’s supposed to be fun. But it gets WAY too serious in here sometimes.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Here's where I think it went...
You said:
I just don’t think….
Sweeney projects as a starting outfielder on a championship caliber team. I know we aren’t close to being one yet, but on a quality club, his plus defense, his average speed on the base paths, his .280 / no power bat, and a growing injury history make him a guy I’d really like to have on my bench, but not a guy I want out there for 162 games.
Someone disagreed, and brought up the example of Melky Cabrera to try to prove their side of the argument.
Someone else disagreed, and chose to use the quantitative values of Sweeney’s defense (UZR) to try to prove their side of the argument.
I would agree that mikev probably attacked your post too voraciously for a difference in opinions. However, you fired back at him with the religion quote.
There is room for differing opinions. However, if statistics suggest my opinion is, in fact, an incorrect view, I’m willing to re-examine my position. You don’t seem to be willing to do so, and it doesn’t seem like you have a reason behind your unwillingness to re-examine your viewpoint either. That’s probably what set this whole thing in motion.
Let me ask it as a question…are you willing to re-examine your stance that Ryan Sweeney is not a starting-caliber OF on a championship-caliber team if people give examples of ten OF with worse hitting stats that started for championship teams? Twenty? Are you willing to be flexible? Inflexibility usually causes arguments, and I think that’s where this started.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 4:32 PM PST up reply actions
No, I didn't.
This ridiculousness actually all started in the other thread where that dude asked straight out if Beltre had really been worth $13M over 5 years.
To which he didn’t reply, and then further down the thread posted this:
I’m not saying you guys are wrong.
I’m saying 13 million a year is ridiculous for a guy who had one monster year, and other grades out at a ‘B’ overall.
13 million dollars to play a game is ridiculous, sure, but that’s not what he was talking about. He’s being willfully ignorant.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Actually Mike
That’s exactly what I was talking about.
13 million to play the game of baseball very well, but not at the highest level of the game is crazy.
That’s all I meant, and you went off in a completely different direction with it.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
I'm sorry if you took it the wrong way.
But that’s honestly where I was going.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
13 million to play baseball AT ALL is ridiculous
fuck, league minimum to play baseball is ridiculous. 400 thousand dollars to play a game is ridiculous.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
100% agree
And again, that was my primary point.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
But with the way baseball is right now
Beltre was not overpaid.
That’s the simple point that was made.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
And I agree with you.
I also (tried) to state that 13 million for that level of production is ridiculous. But not because it wasn’t accurate in the salary level of the game today – it sadly is.
I said that because it seems insane to pay a guy 13 million dollars to be an above average player.
I’m railing against the system, not Beltre’s part in it.
That’s all.
::Extends olive branch::
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Of course!
And that’s where the whole thing went careening off course.
I don’t love Sweeney as a player. Nothing more than an opinion. Is he a plus defender?
Absolutely.
Is he a solid .280-.290 bat?
Without a doubt.
Is he more productive than Cabrerra?
Especially when you consider quality of the bats around Cabrerra probably means he will get something good to hit – most definitely.
Does that mean I would take Sweeney over Cabrerra? Very likely, yes.
Does that mean I want Sweeney as my starting CF?
No.
Why?
I don’t like the guy.
Would you be willing to admit that managers, GM’s and entire organizations play favorites or have players that they just don’t like for one reason or another?
Travis Buck in 2009 would seem to qualify under that banner.
I’m not saying it is right or wrong. What I am saying is that I don’t like Sweeney as a player. I just don’t. I don’t have stats to back that up. I just don’t.
Would I trade him for a guy with identical stats across the board and possibly start him CF.
Yes.
Why?
Because I just don’t like Sweeney. I don’t care for his body language, and something about him in interviews rubs me the wrong way. That’s all the access I have to him, so I have to base my opinion on a limited amount of information.
Does that help explain my position any? If not, I’ll try again. I’m not here to stir up crap. I think everyone just saw me trying to challenge them and paint them as wrong, when all I wanted to do was build my own imaginary team in my own way. Nothing more, nothing less.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
I mean this genuinely
If you don’t like a player, for the reasons you’ve set out above, is it worth denying a team you support his production?
Also, I totally defend your right to not like a player for any reason (see also – I dispise Jorge Posada), but why didn’t you just say that at the start? It would have made things much easier
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
That's a good question
It’s comes back to Buck again. He finally started tearing up AAA again, was called up and proceeded to rot on the bench. Who was being cheated? Buck obviously, but could it at least be argued that the organization was cheating itself out of seeing what it might have in him – at least for the purpose of positioning him as a bargaining chip in the offseason?
I made the mistake of trying to post in too many threads at once, and wasn’t making myself clear enough. No doubt about that. Bad habit of mine. That’s why I’m slowing down now and typing much longer replies, working to make sure I’m being understood more clearly.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
You would have a lot of support on this blog
with the opinion that Buck has been jerked around and deserved a real shot.
I don't like Posada either
because he reminds me of mickey mouse.
Dude looks like a volkswagen beetle with both doors open!
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
My answer
If you don’t like a player, for the reasons you’ve set out above, is it worth denying a team you support his production?
In my opinion, yes.
Absolutely and emphatically yes.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Here's where I think you're wrong:
I’m willing to re-examine my position. You don’t seem to be willing to do so, and it doesn’t seem like you have a reason behind your unwillingness to re-examine your viewpoint either.
Nodaclu has made it clear that he’s not a stats guy and doesn’t like viewing the game in that way. When you ask him to re-examine his views, you’re asking him to do so in a statsy way, and that’s what he’s unwilling to do.
If someone like, say, Nico or Flashfire were to come up with a counterargument about Sweeney stated in non-statsy terms, I see no reason to think Nodaclu would not respond to it in kind and re-examine his views based on it.
Essentially you are saying that re-examination of one’s opinion is only legitimate if it is done on the basis of stats. And since that’s what the disagreement was about in the first place, you’re just arguing in circles.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
I think I love you Iglew
is that so wrong?
Ooo! Piece of candy!
by ChickenStanley on Dec 16, 2009 2:21 AM PST up reply actions
You might want to read this old article of mine
How to Defeat a Sabermetrician in an Argument. (You can probably skip all the non-baseball parts in italics).
Right now, you’re like the guy in Indiana Jones who pulls out his sword, and then Jones just pulls out his gun and shoots him.
Don’t fight bullets with swords. Don’t argue stats with statheads, especially if you don’t like stats. Play a different game, and then you can have fun again.
And the very nature of an opinion...
….that opinions are not put out there to validate. That’s why they are opinions.
I’m used to forums where people can discuss varying opinions. But that is really frowned upon here. That was my mistake.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
I think you're wrong about the nature of an opinion, there
the entire point of stating an opinion is to be able to explain the reasoning behind it.
I mean, I think lettuce soup is amazing, but it means nothing unless I can explain to people why I think so.
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
YOUR WRONG!
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 4:15 PM PST up reply actions
UR A IDITO
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
Wrong
You’re wrong.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 4:16 PM PST up reply actions
{sigh}
that was the point, RRS.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 4:17 PM PST up reply actions
Dang
When I’m 18, I’ll get it.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 4:17 PM PST up reply actions
Countdown
I’m about 19 hours away!
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 4:24 PM PST up reply actions
Nah
I’m not even that excited for my birthday. I haven’t shaved in over a week.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 4:26 PM PST up reply actions
do you shave when you are excited?
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
Maybe
I think most people would want to look their best, though.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 4:28 PM PST up reply actions
ah, gotcha
I generally look better about five days after I shave, so if I’m going out, or celebrating, or wtvr, I generally won’t. Shave.
That was a clumsy sentance, there
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
do you wake up the next morning with lettuce bits in your beard?
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 4:35 PM PST up reply actions
...
yes?
shit.
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
TWSS
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 4:32 PM PST up reply actions
It does change the contours a bit
Makes some parts easier to shave, other parts harder.
Oh wait, you mean shaving your face?
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
by iglew on Dec 16, 2009 2:26 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
suffer ye the children
for they have not irony discovered thus yetly
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
....
now I wanna go watch Deadwood again.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 4:18 PM PST up reply actions
Shakespeare
Is that you, Bill? I hate Hamlet.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 4:19 PM PST up reply actions
actually, that's stolen from the bible
a little. Something Jesus said one day.
I’d never compare myself to Jesus, of course.
That’s for others to do.
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
Hamlet's hard.
start simpler. Try Othello.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 4:21 PM PST up reply actions
Sigh
We’re reading it as a class. I don’t know if we’re reading that other one later on, but I hope not.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 4:22 PM PST up reply actions
Hamlet is *great*, though
anything that has the line “there’s something rotten in the state of Denmark”
is ok by me
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
I'm not sure if this means
R-Star is clueless about Shakespeare or clueless about the Bible. Either one is a facepalm.
What do they teach at schools these days?
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Wow...
So you feel you can’t have an opinion unless you can justify it in the eyes of others?
My God….I’ll refrain from saying whether that is right or wrong (otherwise I’d be hypocritical). But I feel badly for you if that’s the case.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
That was to bobnothing's lettuce post
The threading here is bizarre. Sorry about that.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
ha, no
that’s not what I mean at all.
But, an opinion isn’t interesting unless you can explain your reasons behind it.
And you didnt exactly refrain from expressing what you think of my opinion, did you? There’s not a lot of reading between lines needed there
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
I will freely admit
That reading between the lines is NOT my specialty. Odds are I’ve missed plenty on that front, and am perfectly willing to apologize for my own shortcomings there.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
no no
it was this bit
My God….I’ll refrain from saying whether that is right or wrong (otherwise I’d be hypocritical). But I feel badly for you if that’s the case.
You were being pretty obvious with the point you were trying to make about me
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
reading between the lines
is not all that easy on a blog with people you’ve never met.
It’s not even that easy writing email to people you know.
(I made a joke at work via email that was taken seriously…I had to do a little work to make it better…sigh)
You discuss opinions on the internet without people getting all pissy?
Where do you do this? I haven’t found such a site.
Sorry, I can't hold it in any longer...
This right-side-of-the-screen formatting is just simply bullshit.
Can someone explain to me what the problem is with horizontal scroll bars? Why can’t all the posts be the same width? I’d rather know the actual structure of the posts at the expense of having to scroll over, instead of not having to scroll over at the expense of knowing which fucking post people are responding to.
Stewart: "What really needs to be clear is it wouldn't have mattered if there was an earthquake or not. We were going to beat the Giants.
by Elvez on Dec 15, 2009 5:01 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
You know what people don't welcome or tolerate?
1. Other people rolling in and telling them they don’t like something that they, in fact, like
2. Hypocrisy
3. Persecution complexes
I don’t think anyone particularly cares how you get your baseball jollies. What they do care about is having it shoved down their throats.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
The only thing that really bothers me
is when someone drinks my last beer…and doesn’t go and buy more!
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
My roommate drank one of my beers and then gave me $2.
Like I’m the delivery man or something. Fuck your two bucks, go put another beer in the fridge.
"Tarry not on the subject, danmerqury, for the heathen will surely be cleansed by the hellefire cast downe upon him by Bill James Moste High, praise his name."
by LongLiveLangerhans on Dec 15, 2009 6:57 PM PST up reply actions
better take your ass to the store with that.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 16, 2009 1:13 AM PST up reply actions
night train by guns n roses
wake up late honey put on your clothes
take your credit card to the liquor store
that’s one for you and two for me by tonight
i’ll be loaded like a freight train
flying like an aeroplane
feelin’ like a space brain
There is a lot of groupthink here
But you are fighting it to an extreme. Lots of people think Sweeney is good at baseball. You don’t.
They support their arguements. You don’t.
Its fine, but don’t take an imaginary knife to a gun fight.
Where did I say Sweeney is not good at baseball?
I said I’d love to have him as a 4th outfield on my team.
MY team. Not yours.
It’s not as if I get to make any of the decisions. This is supposed to be fun. I get to dream of my own team in my own way.
But not here. Here you have to look at WAR and UZR and YAHSLDDLA or else your words mean nothing.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Saying that is fine
Getting mad when someone disagrees isn’t. Stats are stats. WAR is a stat just like Batting Average is a stat. You may like some stats more than others, but they are all we have to support our arguements so we do what we can with them.
Sweeney’s value is open for debate, but I guess what I would say is, you aren’t really debating much. Just calling everyone else crazy…
by DrDoom on Dec 15, 2009 4:06 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
or a lemming.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 4:06 PM PST up reply actions
I can't see anything beyond this guy in front of m...
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 4:10 PM PST up reply actions
I've made a huge little mistake.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 4:13 PM PST up reply actions
As I mentioned above...
…mine are just opinions. Nothing more. This is supposed to be fun. What isn’t fun is having an opinion, putting it out there, then being jumped on from multiple sources to “prove” my opinion, or to be belittled with a flurry of stats.
Again, as I mentioned above, I know that stats have their place. But everything in life can be taken to extremes. Stats will never be perfect as long as this games includes hitting a round ball with a cylindrical object.
When I say “I like Sweeney as a 4th outfield”, that’s all I mean. If I were building my own team, that’s where I’d want him. It doesn’t mean that I’ve spent the past 2 hours delving into the stats of every starting CF in baseball to determine whether or not his WAR support my statement.
Again, I just see a bunch of folks who have taken stats to the point that the fun of having varying opinions is completely taken away.
Do stats remove opinions from the equation? Absolutely. Does that take away some of the fun and romance from the game? It sure does for me.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
to be fair
opinions are only interesting if you can explain why you hold them.
And, yknow, there must be some reason.
Otherwise we’d all just be saying things like
I like Houston Street
I like Swooney
I like Chris Carter
Fire Jack Cust!
And that’d be pretty boring, right?
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
No, you don't!
wait, is that right?
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
His sig says he does
Ergo…DO NOT WANT
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 4:34 PM PST up reply actions
DAMMIT
i will believe no evident that contradicts my view.
DAMMIT
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
Actually, no, you explicitly said
that you don’t think Sweeney projects as a starting OF on a championship caliber team.
That is untrue, as he was better than the starting CF on the champions just this season.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
And you're right...
So with that being said…
Would be unreasonable to suggest that other championship caliber teams have had starting CF’ers far better than both Sweeney and Cabrerra?
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
of course not
Tons of teams have had better CFs than Sweeney and Cabrera, and if I was hand picking a roster to win a championship it wouldn’t have either guy on it, frankly.
Just because a team has won a championship with a worse player than Sweeney in the outfield doesn’t mean I want Sweeney if I’m trying to build a championship team from scratch. However, it also doesn’t mean that I’m trying to get rid of Sweeney if he’s already on my team.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I've been called out for the same
Although I was mostly using a group of stats while others used another group of stats.
I wondered why I can’t just post an opinion and leave it alone and I still do. Thats a flaw of this site. There are 3-4 users that will lay into any random post and its unfortunate.
But you took the bait and escalated it beyond what it needed to be.
I’m not sold entirely on Sweeney myself, but I accept the explanations of his value as valid to a degree.
I wouldn't want Sweeney on my team at all
I would want Grady Sizemore in center, Matt Kemp in right, Matt Holliday in left, and Curtis Granderson as my fourth outfielder. Carl Crawford can maybe pinch-run a few times.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Precisely.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Making fact-based arguments (Sweeney is a 4th OF) and calling it an opinion
does NOT let you off the hook. That’s not how debate and discussion and HUMAN FUCKING COMMUNICATION works.
That would be like saying “I think the president (or any famous figure) is a pedophile. I think he probably molests children. But that’s just an opinion.” NO! It’s NOT an opinion. It’s a declaration of a fact.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 16, 2009 1:14 PM PST up reply actions
No it's not.
It’s a statement of opinion about a fact (or lack thereof).
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
This is false.
WAR is a stat just like Batting Average is a stat.
No, it is not. Batting average is a stat that I can calculate on my scorecard and which can be explained in one sentence.
WAR comes from a complicated formula that takes several FanGraphs articles to explain and even then leaves out some of the details. WAR is a stat that relies on some modeling and a lot of comprehensive analysis in order to determine proper weighting factors. WAR is a stat that few if any of us could reconstruct from the box scores.
Look, I love WAR. I think FanGraphs does a fucking awesome job of doing all that analysis and coming up with a pretty darn good number for us. And I love that they are open enough about their process that you can feel good about having faith their calculations. But ultimately you are using WAR because you trust FanGraphs, not because you have a secure grasp on the calculation yourself.
I’m getting sick and tired of people acting like WAR is as easy as AVG or OPS, when it sure as hell isn’t. That’s bullshit, and it stinks of groupthink, too.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
I know we usually talk about "counting stats"
as distinct from “rate stats” — HRs as opposed to HR/PA, for instance — but this is really a case of “analytical stats” vs. “counting stats”.
BA, SLG, OBA are based entirely on event that took place on the field, without any attempt to assign a value to those events. They’re just counting events and recording them. WAR tries to assign values to each of those events, and incorporate those values into the WAR stat. It’s analyzing the impact of those events, rather than just noting that they took place.
Virtually every baseball fan is willing to look at “counting stats” like OBA and SLG. But a lot of people don’t like the “analytical stats”, for a lot of reasons.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
by Nick on Dec 16, 2009 7:10 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Really good post, Nick.
And something I think even non-stats people should read and think about, mostly because you’re not placing a value on the stats, but explaining what they do in simple language.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 16, 2009 1:17 PM PST up reply actions
AND GET THE FUCK OFF MY LAWN
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
The fuck?
You can calculate batting average easily once you’re handed a pile of components.
Just like WAR.
In neither case is anyone— anywhere— going to be calculating it by hand from memory of events.
In either case you WILL be looking it up.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
you only need two components to calculate BA
You need many, more to calculate WAR. Fortunately, others have done exhaustive historical research to find out average run values and other stuff you need for WAR and other advanced statistics.
Of course we’ll look it up anyway, but the distinction is relying on doing a simple calculation based on unequivocal events and a really complicated one based on at least one underlying assumption.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 16, 2009 9:28 AM PST up reply actions
How is that a distinction?
Being really simplistic isn’t a strength if it requires just as much work to get and use the simplistic stat as the complex one.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Huh?
To calculate batting average all you need to know are hits and at-bats. You can get that from any basic stat compilation. It doesn’t take a complex set of formulas to arrive at.
WAR is not the same. It takes a hell of a lot more to calculate that than batting average.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
So?
You’re not “calculating” either one of them. Someone else (well, someTHING else) already did that.
This is not 1915. We have machines to do this now.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
All it takes for me to calculate someone's batting average...
…if I don’t have a website or stat sheet handy is knowing two numbers. That’s about as simple as it gets. It’s not even a formula, but a basic fraction exercise. I don’t even need a calculator or a computer to do it. Anyone could do that on a scrap of paper if they have the two numbers they need (not a “pile of components”).
WAR is not. WAR requires numerous other stats and figures to be calculated first, THEN they’re all thrown into a formula. This is not something you can just do in ten seconds.
The complexity of one vs. the simplicity of the other is the point. Comparing the two like they’re just a couple figures that take a few moments to come up with is inaccurate, which is what it looks like you were doing.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Perhaps this is a business cultural difference.
My current line of work is accounting. It’s just as easy for me to look up one company’s financial figures as another’s, but if one of them I can easily see how they figured it and the other one I can’t, that makes a huge difference to me, even if I’m not going reconstruct their books in either case. So maybe I carry that over to baseball stats. I have an auditor’s mentality, and I’m not going to just trust a number just because someone looked it up somewhere. I need to see that it makes sense.
Perhaps things are different in the legal profession. I’m actually a little surprised at how content you are not to look under the hood.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
But how many times do you need to look?
I understand the math that goes into WAR. The ingredients all work for me. But since it’s a complicated formula, I trust that the results Fangraphs displays are accurate based on the formulas I vetted and learned and came to terms with.
I don’t think that’s trusting numbers on blind faith or anything. I just trust that Fangraphs is plugging in the numbers properly. This trust is assured by the fact that many other people are looking at those numbers, and if something doesn’t seem right, action is taken.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 16, 2009 4:31 PM PST up reply actions
I guess the other difference is you don't have to trust...
…what goes into batting average (since that’s the simple example that was given). If you can’t figure out how the formula is put together and how some of the numbers are arrived at that go into it first, then you do have to trust the results. It’s not suggesting it’s a bad idea to, but that’s what you have to do with some of them.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
I never said you shouldn't trust FanGraphs
Indeed, I said just the opposite.
I objected to the claim that WAR is just as easy to figure or understand as a traditional stat like BA. They are qualitatively different.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
OK
WAR is harder to calculate. I agree with that statement in the abstract. It might even be an order of magnitude harder to calculate.
The problem is that that’s like saying that Bill Gates is an order of magnitude richer than the Sultan of Brunei (warning: made up example). Both of them are insanely incredibly ridonkulously rich, and the difference barely matters.
Once you get into using computers to collect the data anyway, you might just as well use WAR, which is much better than batting average.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
The difference is that batting average requries two numbers
Hits. At bats. It’s EASY. I can do nearly any batting average in my head (at least a rough estimate of it).
I totally understand why the average fan would like batting average, and why something more complicated would turn them off. It’s our job to try to help these people overcome that. We shouldn’t tell them they’re wrong. Nobody likes being told that.
That said, when people come into the thread acting like total assclowns and calling out others, that’s different. I have no interest in converting those types.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 16, 2009 1:19 PM PST up reply actions
Am I not arguing clearly here?
No one calculates stats on their own. It does not matter how “simple” the stat is when it is calculated by a computer. So it takes a thousandth of a second for the computer to calculate instead of a millionth of a second. How awful. Is this relevant to my life?
The place that you get “at-bats” and “hits” numbers from is the same place you get “batting average” and “WAR” numbers from… namely, the friggin’ stats website. No one scores entire seasons at home with pen and paper anymore.
In 1915, there was something to be said for going with batting average over F.C. Lane’s wonky alternative, because no one else was an insane shut-in brainiac who lived surrounded by thousands of pages covered in statistics like him who could verify his research.
That is not the case now. Scoring is done by a handful of people and then disseminated through mass media. Other professionals periodically check it to make sure it’s being done right. That’s all you really need.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
There's more to it than that
And I think you know this.
Anyone can quickly understand how a batting average is calculated, even if they never do it themselves: hits divided by at-bats. Simple as that. It’s immediately clear what goes into it and how the results are arrived at.
Same thing with ERA. You just have to add another number and perform an extra step. Slugging percentage? That can still be done pretty simply once you understand the weight given to each type of hit.
What people are trying to tell you is that WAR is not just that simple. It’s not something you can read about in a few seconds and right away go “Okay, I understand how they calculate it.” It takes more than that because of all the things that go into it AND all the things that go into first coming up with some of the figures that THEN get tossed into the formula for WAR.
There are positional adjustments, wOBA and so on. Who determines why or how one position is weighed more than another, etc.? Why are their deductions trusted instead of questioned? How were they questioned BEFORE they came to be trusted?
Obviously at some point enough people had to look at it and determine “Hey, this is meaningful. We should pay more attention to this compared to that other stat/formula/whatever.”
Whether you get the stats that all go into it from a website or keep them yourself isn’t the point. Again, the differences in complexity are, and that’s where some people run into the confusion of it because of how much goes into calculating something like WAR compared to batting average. One IS a pile of components. The other definitely is not.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
It's much easier to play around with the compiling stats than with the analytic stats
Say that player A had a WAR that was .7 higher than player B last year. If I ask, “What would player B have had to do to match player A’s WAR?” it won’t be easy for me to answer that. At least, I don’t think it will be.
But if we’re comparing, say, OBA, or even OPS, it’s not that hard for me to get a rough sense of what could have closed the gap. “Oh, if B had drawn X more walks and 7 of his outs had been hits, he would have had the same OBA.” That’s comprehensible, and a calculation that people can easily do on a computer without complicated formulas.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
This discussion has really surprised me.
I always assumed that most stat-geeks were math geeks who actually understood this stuff. Now Paul is telling me that understanding is completely irrelevant, it’s just a matter of knowing which website to look it up on. All this time you’ve been pretending to be more scientific than the scouting crowd, but in fact 100% of your analysis is just about choosing which expert to trust.
I sure hope that you’re the exception, Paul, and your fellow stat fans aren’t so cavalier about “trust the professionals; all you have to do it look it up”. If not, then the Bill James philosophy of questioning conventional wisdom has gone full circle.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
by iglew on Dec 16, 2009 4:38 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Eh, I don't think you can really make that conclusion
It seems to me that Paul may still know how these stats are calculated but doesn’t need to calculate them himself, since there are people and computers that do this for him. Just because one knows how to calculate something doesn’t mean that one will always do the legwork. That’s just a preposterous idea.
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
I was going to reply saying exactly this, but you beat me to it
Give me, I don’t know, a day of hard study and I will be able to know and utilize the formula for calculating wOBA and converting it into runs above and below average, and thus be able to turn a standard statsheet into the equivalent of wRC. It’s not THAT complicated.
However, since I am often busy and some very nice person a while back invented robots that could do this stuff for us, there’s no reason not to use them.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
But you need to know what
the linear weights are for each event. That derives from a comprehensive analysis.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
An analysis which there is, again, no reason or need for me to replicate
It’s not particularly complicated— just time-consuming.
I suppose you’ll next tell me that I can’t even trust that until I’ve derived the existence of “multiplication” from first principles, or something.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
A day of hard study is still tons more time needed to be taken...
…than is the case for just about any of the more basic stats, however.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
It seems that people just don't understand what the components of WAR are
We’re not talking about how easy it is to find the stats—it’s more a discussion of what the stats actually mean. The fact of the matter is, most people (including myself) have no idea how WAR is calculated, and that makes it much harder to know what WAR is really telling you. Granted, once you understand the gist of WAR, it doesn’t really matter how it’s calculated.
When someone gets a hit in a game, it’s relatively easy to know how the hit will affect the player’s batting average. It’s much harder to know how much certain events affect a player’s WAR. And that’s the point. WAR may be be a much more accurate summary of a player’s value or contributions to the team than traditional 1915 stats, but it’s much less spectator-friendly.
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
In the present discussion
I was specifically disputing the assertion that WAR is just as easy to understand as AVG, etc., so I’ve attempted to stick to that.
But more generally, it’s not just about how easy it is to calculate or understand; it also tells you something about its reliability. With, say, OBP, you can be sure that he really did get on base that percent of the time. With WAR, you are told that he is this many “wins above replacement level” but you don’t know that is true in an absolute sense. You know that the number really does reflect how that guy’s inputs make the formula come out, but it’s only as accurate as the model’s linear weight values, position adjustments, park factors, method for modeling defensive runs saved, etc. Besides that, there are some minor and hard-to-measure elements that are omitted from the formula which can affect a player’s win value, as is openly acknowledged on FanGraphs methodology pages.
So it’s not so simple as saying “he really is worth X many wins”. In discussions here on AN we have frequently acknowledged, for example, that the defensive side of the equation is a less accurate model than the offensive side. If you were to take the position that WAR is just as good as other stats and you just have to look it up and don’t need to understand how it works, then that’s something you wouldn’t know.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
OK
Where the devil did I say that people shouldn’t learn how WAR works? I’m entirely in favor of that. You’re much more likely to use a statistic correctly/to make valid points if you actually know what it’s telling you. This is true of every statistic (including batting average, where it took 100 years of intense study and misuse for people to figure out what it’s actually reasonably useful for).
That being said, “what it’s telling you” is not particularly complex and should easily be accessible to anyone of normal intelligence and over the age of 13 or so.
I know what my toaster is telling me, even though I can’t personally fix it when it’s broken.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
You said,
“once you understand the gist of WAR, it doesn’t really matter how it’s calculated”
Maybe I misunderstood what you meant by “gist”, but I read that to mean you didn’t need to know what all the factors are that go into WAR. If that’s not what you were saying then I withdraw my complaint.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Actually, I said that
And I wasn’t saying that the individual components don’t matter. Once you understand what the a stat really means (and that includes the individual calculations that go into it), you can refer to the stat without being confused about what it’s really telling you.
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
But when you represent it in
discussion as “he is worth 2.4 wins more than replacement” or “he is worth $7.5 million”, then the person reading it who does not share your knowledge of WAR will assume you mean that literally, which you do not.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
I don't really get your reply
My whole point is that WAR is inherently harder to understand than traditional stats. Sure, when everybody in a discussion understands what WAR means, it might be possible to have a more meaningful discussion of a player’s worth—but not everybody understands the stat. And that’s my point.
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
Sounds like we agree then.
Some others seemed to be saying that WAR is not harder to understand than traditional stats.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Two big differences
(1) The pile of components is a much larger pile in one case than the other.
(2) With WAR several of the components are non-transparent.
With batting average, it’s like:
—Why 147?
—Because that’s how many hits he got this year.
—Oh, OK.
—Why 570?
—Because that’s how many plate appearances he had this year.
—Oh, OK.
Whereas with WAR it’s like:
—Why 0.47?
—Because that’s the replacement level value of a relief pitcher.
—Oh really? How do you figure?
—Uh, I don’t know, but that’s what it says on FanGraphs.
—Why 1.13?
—Because that’s the park adjustment factor for the park he plays in.
—Oh really? How do you figure?
—Uh, I don’t know, but that’s what it says on FanGraphs.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
How do you know how many plate appearances he had this year?
Uh, I don’t know. I looked it up on Fangraphs.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Difference is you don't need to go to Fangraphs to get plate appearances
(Or at-bats, which is what I think iglew meant)
You do have to go to Fangraphs for the things specific to that site, though.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
The number of different websites on which a statistic is listed
is a measure of how well it’s penetrated popular consciousness, but it has nothing inherently to do with complexity. Take pitcher “wins”: difficult to derive (you have to extract them a game at a time from play-by-play data; no easy multiplication there), yet kept on every site (even SABR sites like fangraphs).
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Yeah or you could go to Statcorner for tRA based WAR
or a bunch of other places.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 17, 2009 8:43 PM PST up reply actions
yeah its done by an AN member
and is great if you want tRA based pitching numbers.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 17, 2009 8:49 PM PST up reply actions
I'll have to give it a look
Though it is possible I’ve seen it before but my memory can be really bad about sites I’ve been to sometimes.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Oh, okay. I have seen it.
I recognize the layout. I think I looked at a few things there when Eveland’s tRA or something was being debated earlier this year.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Matthew Carruth is an AN member?
Wow.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
he was now he interns for the A's baseball opperations dept IIRC
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 17, 2009 10:43 PM PST up reply actions
Graham posts here occasionally, too,
but he’s a regular on LL.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
This is classic science though
You don’t need to intimately understand all the derivations of a theorem in order to use said theorem. What you do need to know is that a) it’s been proven, b) the proof has been independently verified by trusted parties, and c) that you could work out all the derivations through hard work and time if you wanted to. Once you’re convinced of those three points, you’re free to use the theory without having to do the legwork.
I’m a computer programmer by trade. I code in C, often writing statements like LOG_1(“Error Message”). Now I couldn’t tell you exactly what the mechanics behind LOG_1 are – I know it’s an in-house wrapper, probably of printf(), which in turn will be eventually compiled into assembly language, which will then be output simply as high and low signals on an electrical wire. However, I do know that LOG_1 will print out an error message to my screen when it runs, and I do know that I could figure out every part of the computational process in between – if I so wanted to and had the available time. But that’s unnecessary in order to understand the point of LOG_1().
Same thing with regards to WAR. Somebody created the theory( “This is a decently accurate method of comparing baseball players” ). They posted their methodology and others in the sabermetrics community independently verified the results – and all this information has been shared to us via the internet. So choosing not to use it, or choosing to view it as a less favorable stat is basically saying that you don’t agree with the methodology( fine, give examples of where it fails..), you don’t agree with the “trustedness” of the reviewers, or you don’t believe the methodology is reproducible( can’t imagine this is the case ). Outside of that, it’s simply head-in-the-sandism. If you’re too lazy/stupid( in general, not specifically pointed at anyone ) to comprehend statistics because they’re too complicated, then you either should immediately concede valuation arguments, or not argue worth at all. Feel free to argue that you like Rajai because he’s got an awesome name, and that the A’s should keep him because of that.
One last example to my already too long winded of a post. 10 years ago, you could basically tell what computer was better by the processor that it came with. A 666 MHz was clearly better than a 386 MHz. Then along came Centrino and laptops and multi-cores and 64-bit architectures. Nowdays, in order to actually compare computers, you need to compare benchmark tests – and different computers perform differently for various tasks. Same deal with baseball. Once upon a time it was acceptable to use RBIs and Batting Averages to describe the worth of baseball players. But we’re in a world of more powerful calculations, faster collaborations and following those – more complex statistics. RBIs and BA are nice, simple, easy to understand statistics. But that doesn’t make them useful anymore.
by rrryanc on Dec 17, 2009 1:05 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm glad someone brought out programming
Here’s where I come out:
1. BA and WAR are both well-defined functions (i.e. rrryanc could program a function that spat out BA or WAR given the appropriate raw inputs and its output would always match fangraphs)
2. WAR requires a lot more inputs, and would be harder for rrryanc to program
I disagree with Iglew that “faith” is required in using WAR. It seems to me that my belief that the WAR calculation matters more than the BA calculation is supported by substantial evidence. Unless there is a suggestion that fangraphs has misimplemented its WAR function, using their number is not a faith-based decision under any definition I’m familiar with.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
This may have been covered above (I'm starting to forget)...
…but another part of where WAR can be questioned in addition to its complexity is just the fact that some of the variables had to be determined by someone in the first place, to then set benchmarks for the rest of the equation. BA doesn’t need that in the sense it’s just raw data in its most basic form.
Not saying this means it’s more of a reason to distrust it because by most accounts it’s been vetted to the point that it’s accepted, but there you go.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Sure
but that’s a different argument.
Argument 1) I don’t like using WAR because I don’t understand it.
Argument 2) I don’t like WAR because it overvalues UZR, undervalues the effects of BABIP, and overvalues FIP in x, y, and z ways.
Argument 2 is a perfectly reasonable argument, and if you’re able to adequately spell out your reasons behind x, y and z, most people will respect your argument.
If you’re using Argument 1, well then you just have your head in the sand and no one’s going to respect your argument.
Sure, but another part of the problem...
…is I’ve seen some people say they’ve even tried to read through the info on how all the variables that lead to WAR are calculated and they have trouble understanding them. In that case, you can’t even really get to the point of #2 and it may lead to #1.
I freely admit I don’t understand how WAR is arrived at and it’s been tough to find time to even try looking deeper into it for a while. That’s a big part of why I don’t get into actual WAR-related debates in terms of when it’s used to compare players.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Read the fangraph glossary and the Book and youll be fine
its really not that complicated and the whole thing makes a lot of intuitive sense.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 17, 2009 8:48 PM PST up reply actions
No, it's not head in the sand.
If you don’t understand a stat, then you don’t know what it undervalues and overvalues.
People who cite WAR often treat it as if it’s more solid than it is, and because most readers don’t understand that, they get away with it.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
That still leaves you with head in the sand though
It’s like trying to argue advanced physics with Newton’s laws. Sure, relativity isn’t nearly as easy to understand. And there are a lot of interactions that still aren’t entirely understood. But if you’re aware that relativity exists, and you’re still trying to argue your case using Newtonian physics, then your argument will get no respect from anyone.
Same thing goes with baseball. If one can’t understand the advanced statistics, or one doesn’t have enough time to understand it, then that person shouldn’t argue quantitative numeric worth of baseball players. They wouldn’t be less wrong just because they personally don’t understand the statistic…
Don't go lumping all the groupthink together.
I’m with you on some of this and against you on other.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Terrorist!!!!!
{runs, frightened, to basement base camp}
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The Raiders don't lose because of chemistry
They lose because they have a lot of players who suck at football.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 16, 2009 12:47 PM PST up reply actions
Who the hell said that about Sweeney?
First time I have ever heard anything like that~
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
Not to keep banging the same drum.
But he was an extremely high quality defensive right fielder, last year. He may continue to be one going forward, but I don’t think that’s something we can judge one way or the other with a ton of confidence.
we in the losin baseball binness. and cousin, binness is a boomin.
by walk off bunt on Dec 15, 2009 4:30 PM PST up reply actions
(but he should continue to improve as a hitter, being that he's only 24 still)
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Certainly possible.
I’m not as optimistic, but, yeah. I think Sweeney should be given every chance to prove he’s NOT a worthwhile major league starter, at least, since he’s already shown he CAN be one, for at least one season.
we in the losin baseball binness. and cousin, binness is a boomin.
by walk off bunt on Dec 15, 2009 4:38 PM PST up reply actions
Personally
I don’t trust players who have most of their value on defense. Offensively he is what, 2 runs above?
I agree with this
Is Sweeney even 2 Runs above offensively?
by Colorado Fan on Dec 15, 2009 3:54 PM PST up reply actions
2.4 last season.
But 24 on defense. Granted, much of that is attributed to small sample size, but he’s a plus defender either way.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
And only 7 above on defense the year before
I just don’t trust that… he may well be a 2 WAR player, btu I wouldn’t expect consistent 4.1 WAR out of Sweeney year in and year out.
Definitely.
I’ll wait for three seasons of UZR data before making a judgment, but hey, that 24 FRAA number can’t hurt.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
Huh?
Sweeney as a right fielder had an 11.3 UZR in 2008 in under 500 innings. His UZR/150 in 2008 was 29.6. It was 32.5 in 2009. In two partial seasons, he’s put up amazing numbers in right.
His numbers in center are much less consistent.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 16, 2009 1:22 PM PST up reply actions
No doubt Sweeney's WAR is probably inflated
He’s good but he’s not THAT good. As a rule I tend to agree with you and weigh offensive value a bit more heavily since its easier to see and predict. Defense values are more nebulous.
Well, be careful now
A run is a run is a run. A run saved = a run…earned (ok, that didn’t quite work). You shouldn’t weigh offense more, but it’s understandable to trust it more. Maybe this is what you’re saying, but I think it’s an important distinction to make.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 16, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
So I guess this means Eric Chavez is ready to be the future at 3B for the A's
I have to say this trade caught me off guard since Wallace was supposed to be a big (literally!) part of the puzzle.
I have no idea who Michael Taylor is so I won’t pretend to know if this is a good move but from everything I’ve read it sure seemed like 3B was a bigger need than RF/LF.
Well I guess I’ll put this in the “In Billy we trust” category and hope for the best.
For years now...
Beane has subscribed to “find the best overall players, and we’ll find a place to put them”. I think he was made an offer he simply couldn’t refuse, and he’ll deal with the immediate consequences of that before spring training.
He can’t possibly be serious about McPherson/Chavez/Fox, can he?
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Fox
I think he’s the designated hitter to start the season if Hairston isn’t traded.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 3:18 PM PST up reply actions
McPhoxez!
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 3:23 PM PST up reply actions
Geren kept mentioning Fox in relation to 3B in an interview
and that was even before the Wallace-Taylor trade materialized
you think the Toronto GM called Billy Beane
or that Billy called him? I kind of think Billy called him up but that is just speculation on my part.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
Uh...
Cardenas?
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 3:22 PM PST up reply actions
He's only played...
…a handful of games at 3B in the minors, and struggled with the bat at AAA last year. He might be a longer term answer there, but probably not in April 2010.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Cardenas
In 23 at-bats with Sacramento at third base, he hit .217.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 3:29 PM PST up reply actions
The post said
“So I guess this means Eric Chavez is ready to be the future at 3B for the A’s”
I was talking about the future. And 23 AB is a ridiculously SSS.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 3:35 PM PST up reply actions
Yes
I know it’s too short. I was just responding to Cardenas’ struggles at the plate in Triple-A last year while playing third base.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 3:36 PM PST up reply actions
Ah
Gotcha. Sorry man.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 3:37 PM PST up reply actions
That's coincidental
He played 3B in his first stint in Sacto. The 2nd time he came up, he hit much better but was playing 2B because Wallace was on the team.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Baseball Reference
Says 51 games and 207 AB’s in Sacramento in 2009. He hit .251 after hitting .326 in AA.
So that’s a little more than you’re giving him credit for. But if he’s going to be looked at as a 3B, he needs some time there first in AAA.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
He means AB while playing 3B
But I see that in your post you made those as two separate points. And I agree he could use some time in AAA. My point was that the OP said Chavez would be the 3B of the future, but we should only need Chavez for one more year.
Also wanted to point out that Cardenas started to figure it out in the second half in AAA. In his first stint in AAA (May) he put up .175/.246/.263/.509 in 66 PA. He had a horrible .217 BABIP. In his second stint (August and September), he put up .304/.364/.439/.803 in 165 PA. I’m not worried about Cardenas.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 3:55 PM PST up reply actions
And Cardenas did this while he was 21, I think?
He has plenty of time to develop more home run power.
Yep.
He may truly be the longer term answer there – mybe 2011 and beyond. Was just hoping not to repeat the 3B trainwreck of the past few seasons for yet another one.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Very good point.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Agreed.
Long term, the guy is going to hit. No doubt about that.
I didn’t realize he was referring to AB’s at 3B. Sorry about that.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Do we need to start our community prospect rankings again?
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
Id say
just redo the top
vote between carter and taylor and Im sure the rest would be safe to assume would fall the same way
Fuck you Bob Geren
by supermarc589 on Dec 15, 2009 3:16 PM PST up reply actions
Prospects
We could just replace Wallace with Taylor and then take a vote on who is number one and the loser is number two.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 3:16 PM PST up reply actions
But now positional aspects are reshaped...
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
I think Taylor takes the top spot...
Carter comes in at 2.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
Agreed
I’d put Taylor first.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 3:18 PM PST up reply actions
mmm... total package
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
I want to see him hit some balls for some dongs!
Jackpot!
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 4:36 PM PST up reply actions
Especially considering positions...
Doesn’t Cardenas become a better A’s prospect than before considering he’s all we have left for 3B… of course many would say he’s always been all we had.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
Cardenas and Donaldson
How confident are you that both will convert to 3b now? Or will they use this extra OF and pitching depth and find another minor league/mlb ready 3b? This trade is a huge vote of confidence for Daric Barton, I would also expect a healthy Doolittle is in the 1b mix too. I wouldnt be suprised if the A’sfront office views Doolittle’s broader range of skills and improving power as a better fit than Wallace.
Heyman just tweeted:
3-team technically involves 4. #jays will send athletic CF michael taylor to #a’s for well-travelled 1B brett wallace
LOL
well travelled?
he was just drafted in 2007 and was in the same organization that drafted him until mid-2009. He’s yet to play a MLB game.
Makes him sound like Alan Embree…
I ran across someone or other recently
Don’t remember who, but the poor guy had played in 11 different cities (three organizations) in three seasons. And I mean serious numbers of games, not one-game rehab stints.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
some long-term minor leaguers are so "well travelled"
that they make Wallace look rooted to one spot.
(No, I didn’t mean it as a slur on his body type!)
for the players who make it to the big show and can stick around a while they have a chance for some big bucks….but that’s only a small minority
Was just looking at former White Sox marginal catching prospect Gustavo Molina last night
He had 7 in the past 3 years.
Bowie, Charlotte, Chicago, Baltimore, New Orleans, New York, Syracuse. That’s a lot of uniforms.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 16, 2009 1:26 PM PST up reply actions
you guys are missing the point here
He called Wallace a 1B
(and Taylor a CF). He must really love the deal from our perspective.
Back to square one at 3b
Cardenas does not have much power for a corner infield spot, though I think we should give him a chance, since we have no choice.
Donaldson is a back up catcher in the majors.
Here is an anonymous scouts assesment of Taylor from July
found this here in article regarding why Taylor should be in the Futures game.
After scouting Taylor this year I would have to completely agree that this kid has all the tools/by far the best minor league position player I have seen all year/I am not one to get involved with this type of debate or making comments/ however, in this case, I feel very strongly about both his ability and performance this year. He has done it all for me, hit, hit for power, run well for a big guy and displays a plus throwing arm with accuracy, instincts, intangibles, etc, etc/he has made tremendous strides from last year and, simply put, is fun to watch play. It is scary to think that there are that many more qualified minor lge players with equal or better ability/I rest my case!!!!
Chavez has more Lives than Felix the cat
I believe the Chavez experiment will be over either this year or maybe in about 4 years. Removing Wallace from the mix clarified the infield, moving Cardenas up as the #1 prospect at 3b. SS is “settled” for awhile unless BB picks up another Cabrera…or Cabrera 2.0 version. 2nd is settled with unicorn and several prospects that are contending such as Weeks. 1b is now Barton/Doolittle/Carter which is solid for now.
Stud outfield prospect Taylor will allow BB to get rid of the chaffe we are waiting to develop. WS in 2010…We are there!!
"I've been accused of using too many words...I suppose that's like accusing Mozart of using too many notes." Bill King
RIP: Eric Chavez (1977-2009)
Father, son, walking ER bill.
Eric is survived by his wife, Alexa; his son, Diego; his daughter, Dolce; and his salary, $11.5 million guaranteed.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 4:38 PM PST up reply actions
Dolce, incidentally, is a *great* name for a child
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
that's also good
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
Screw you, Wikipedia!
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 4:50 PM PST up reply actions
Doesn't that mean "agony" or something?
Or is that Dolores?
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Dulce = sweet
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
And Leche is what the cow will call me by tomorrow morning
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
"Mission Dulce de Leche" might be better attended on Sundays.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Cite?
Oakland Athletics bio page says “Dolce”. Find me a better source that shows mlb.com is in error and I’ll fix it. (Fix Wikipedia, I mean; can’t do anything about mlb.com.)
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
I think it's quite possible that, given his non-Mexicanness, he pronounced "Dulce" as "Dolce" in an interview
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
Can we have someone confirm this?
Like maybe a beat reporter? Is Eric Chavez’s daughter named Dulce or Dolce?
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
SuSlu wrote "Dulce" before the baby was born
From this:
Chavez’s wife, Alex, is due to deliver their second child, daughter Dulce, on Wednesday, so they could have dual epidurals in the family.
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
Aha,
That makes me question the MLB page where it says “Dolce”, but doesn’t give me enough confidence to be sure SFGate is right and MLB is wrong.
I’d love something that confirms which one is the error.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Who was thelast successful baseball player out of Stanford?
Overhype of Putnam, Mayberry, Garko, Borchard, Hutchinson and many others.
In case you're wondering
Carlos Quentin = good. And also, what does that have to do with anything? Were the Rockies supposed to avoid drafting Tulowitzki because Jeremy Reed, Abe Alvarez, and Chad Bentz all sucked?
Rosenthal article backin late july
Meanwhile, a scout offered this about Brett Wallace: “He can hit but he throws like a girl. They acquired a DH — I think he might be Jack Cust Jr. with fewer Ks. (Outfielder Shane) Peterson is the hidden gem!”
all depends on which girl -- some have good arms
now if he’d said ’throws like Johnny Damon" that would be more specific
Wallace is going to be moved to 1b?
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
screw you, you fuzzy blue monster!
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 4:55 PM PST up reply actions
In a league that is only 7% African-American...
Rajai Davis, Scott Hairston, Eric Patterson, perhaps joined in the not-too-distant future by:
Chris Carter
Michael Taylor
Jemile Weeks
Tyson Ross
Corey Wimberly
Tyler Ladendorf
Jeremy Barfield
Rashun Dixon
Thoughts (I realize this is a difficult topic for some people to discuss, but I think I’m approaching it thoughtfully and respectfully):
*That’s probably now the best collection of minor-league African-American talent in the game.
*I can’t think of a team that has four African-American position-playing starters, but the A’s definitely could in two to three years.
*If you’ve ever been the only member of your race in a large group, you definitely feel like you stick out. Some people feel less comfortable in that situation. Many African-American ballplayers come up through the farm system as the only American-born black player on their teams. Conversely, the A’s have acquired more than 10 African-American players in their system the last two seasons.
*The city of Oakland is one of the most ethnically diverse in the country, and roughly 30% of the city is African-American. It always made sense cultivate diverse talent, especially in this market, and I remember growing up and watching Dave Hendu, Rickey, and Dave Parker on the 1989-1990 A’s teams I idolized. But somehow the organization strayed from that in this decade and fielded some a few teams this decade that weren’t very ethnically diverse at all. I don’t think that ever makes sense, but especially in this market.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Dec 15, 2009 5:01 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
But there are no Mexicans
says Dave Del Grande…..(yes that includes Chavez! :X)
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
by ST on Dec 15, 2009 5:13 PM PST up reply actions
I know... I feel that way about the lack of Danish Americans in baseball
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
You know who laments the lack of Danishes in baseball?
Joe Blanton. And probably Prince Fielder.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Bartolo Colon
When Colon faced Sabathia when Colon was in Chicago and Sabathia in Cleveland, they used to keep a six-foot party sub where the rosin bag usually is. That’s a true story I made up.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 10:25 PM PST up reply actions
Omigod -- I REMEMBER when that didn't happen!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
You forgot the -Cindi
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Naw, that was me.
You know how when you’re around people too much, you can adopt their speech patterns? Let’s just say I’m never babysitting a tupperware party for Cindi, Debbi, Lori, and Teri again. Ever.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
but billy beane is a racist who hates black people
according to milton bradley
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
He only acquired the black players so he could get off when he TRADES them for white players!!!1
m*****f***ing c***s***ing peanut butter and jelly!! f*** f*** f***!!!
But... But... Billy Beane is a Racist!
He cut Milton Bradley.
Stewart: "What really needs to be clear is it wouldn't have mattered if there was an earthquake or not. We were going to beat the Giants.
Woohoo!
And so fitting that the A’s bring back Fernando on the day that ABBA gets elected to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
I do, he completely dominated last yr in AA and AAA
He was a good prospect a couple yrs ago just not ready. Same with McBeth, who was one of their better conversion projects. Safe to say, that there’s more than enough depth to make up for the loss of the great AAA reliever jeff gray.
I already ordered my jersey.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Babe Ruth
I heard he was fat.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 5:41 PM PST up reply actions
Hey!
I’m antique! Big whoop. Wanna fight about it?
Ooo! Piece of candy!
by ChickenStanley on Dec 16, 2009 2:39 AM PST up reply actions
I take it your a Family Guy fan
based on your post and your sigline?
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
Good lord, I just looked up Taylor's ht/wt
He’s 6’6 260, basically a young Frank Thomas.
By comparison, Chris Carter, widely acknowledged as “huge”, is only 6’4 220.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
Trogdor and Gigantor
I still secretly like Shiva: Destroyer of Worlds
I didn't realize he was that large
He’s got some great speed for his size.
by eastbayexpat on Dec 15, 2009 6:09 PM PST up reply actions
So now
all beane has to do is package Cunningham or Buck up with one or two of our zillion high upside bullpen arms like H-Rod, and try and procure a REAL third baseman. You think Pittsburgh would deal LaRoche for Cunningham + H-Rod?
Sorry, I cannot get on board with this trade
Wallace was the hope for a huge sucking void at 3B. Not a guarantee but a hope. It was more realistic than thinking Chavy will make it back there. IF this is part of a plan to now get a quality 3B then okay. Yes, we could use power in the outfield with the question marks of Sweeney ever developing and Hairston ever doing better than 15 pops a year he seems to have printed in his DNA…but though I like what Taylor has done throug the minors he is no sure thing. Frankly – he is probably bummed to be coming to a park that eats homers for breakfast and spits them out as deep fly-outs.
Baja been here
This tells me 2 things (the trade)
1. They must not think Wallace can stick at 1B
2. Taylor is a better prospect anyway.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
NEW THREAD OPEN
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
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