Brett Wallace traded?
by AsFanInLA on Dec 15, 2009 9:11 AM PST
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I cannot find anything to support it, but on mlbtraderumors they are saying that Olney and Crasnick of espn are emailing that Brett Wallace has been traded to Toronto for Michael Taylor. On the surface this makes no sense to me as it seems we are trading from a position of need for a position of strength. Can someone tell me something about Taylor that would make me excited about this (or call BS on it)?
Link: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/12/michael-taylor-will-be-traded-for-brett-wallace.html
These prospect for prospect trades are the kind that don't happen very often, which has me skeptical, but if true seemed worthy of a fanpost.
EDIT: Here is a link to a Buster Olney tweet that backs up this rumor:
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Doubt it
I’d be really surprised if this happened. Unless there’s a follow up move…
Bye Bye Buck? Seeya Sweeney? Hasta Hairston? Down-the-Road Davis? Gone-ingham?
by LoneStranger on Dec 15, 2009 9:24 AM PST up reply actions
I'm frightened to find out which one you wouldn't like.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 10:46 AM PST up reply actions
Looks to be true.
A’s must have decided Wallace couldn’t stick at 3B. I like Taylor, but he isn’t a grade A type prospect. There might be other players involved. We’ll have to wait and see how it shakes out.
"Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it."
-Thomas Jefferson
Taylor was ranked above Wallace in BA's midseason prospect rankings
Taylor was #23
As much as I see a couple MAJOR notable WTFs from BA’s midseason top 50 (Lars Anderson making the list over Chris Carter is one), ultimately, I think Taylor’s the better prospect right now.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
Like I said, I do like Taylor.
There are questions about whether he will simply be solid, or if he truly has All-Star potential. For the record, I don’t consider Wallace a grade A prospect, either, because of the defensive questions concerning him.
"Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it."
-Thomas Jefferson
by thinwhiteduke on Dec 15, 2009 9:26 AM PST up reply actions
According to MLBTR
One of the scouts mentioned that Michael Taylor was the major league-ready player and questioned why the Phillies were including him in the trade.
It's just more exciting with Billy Beane running the team.
Link?
There’s a LOT of crap on this trade on there.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 10:00 AM PST up reply actions
I actually think this is a good move.
Simple.
IF Brett Wallace is a 1B/DH, and NOT a 3B, it makes sense for the A’s to trade him for an OF prospect with plus power, something all the A’s OF prospects don’t have. In terms of bat, Taylor and Wallace are about even. They’re evenly ranked prospects, and both have plus bats and are very close to MLB ready (Wallace might be closer, but with the Mariners going on a spree, 2011 is a bigger concern than 2010).
If Wallace is a 3B, this move makes zero sense whatsoever.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
but from a defensive standpoint, it makes a lot of sense.
IF the difference between their bats is linear, which I’m convinced it is.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
It has to be that the A's saw enough of Wallace
up close and personal to realize he was not going to stick at third base. That’s the ONLY way this makes any sense because the A’s have plenty of 1B/DH types.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Dec 15, 2009 9:33 AM PST up reply actions
That's my thought
But the A’s also have just as many COF types. But obviously a 5-tool COF projects as more valuable than a 2-tool 1B/DH.
by nobodyinparticular on Dec 15, 2009 9:34 AM PST up reply actions
Not ones with plus power though
Cunningham, Sweeney, and Rajai are all plus speed, plus defense. Great tools, and solid players (obviously, we all know how defense is valuable and you don’t have to smash dingers to be awesome) but not crazy power.
Taylor represents a legit plus power prospect at a position that is NOT 1B or DH, something the A’s were sorely lacking.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
Carter has been playing outfield, has he not?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Yes, but is it likely he sticks there?
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
Not dismissing the possibility though.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
Well, he's supposedly too "stone hands" to be an adequate infielder
But he’s also supposedly really, really athletic. That would lend itself better to the OF.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
With Wallace gone, Carter can DH
Actually makes a lot of sense. Barton at 1B, Carter at DH, Taylor in LF is a LOT better defensively than Carter in LF, Carter at 1B, Wallace at 3B, or Wallace at 1B. I like it.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 10:01 AM PST up reply actions
I doubt they would want to DH
Carter would they?
Not a good move. He needs to be on the field
If he's a terrible defender?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
It appears so
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 10:26 AM PST up reply actions
Can either Taylor or Carter play RF
I’d like to try them both in the outfield. At least to have that option, depending on how other players work out.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Taylor is supposed to be a good OF
I don’t think RF would be a problem, from what I’ve heard. Though if he were out there with Davis and Sweeney, he’d be the 3rd best.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
He's got a cannon for an arm
so it sounds like Taylor can cut it in RF.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
Carter, Desme, Taylor WOOHOO
Bombs away!
by redtopcowboy on Dec 15, 2009 10:35 AM PST up reply actions
On the surface this seems very odd to me
But without having seen anything on Michael Taylor, what’s the story on him? Is he really that highly touted?
Otherwise, I don’t get it. Yes, Wallace has some questions defensively but his bat is still promising. On top of that, they pass on him in the draft and seem to regret it after taking Weeks, then he’s the key part of who they get back in the Holliday deal, now they may turn around and flip him for an outfield prospect?
If that’s true, I can only guess they’re going to go with another year of a stop-gap at third base and try to sign or trade for someone more established, or do it now. What’s going on with Beltre?
Last of the Ninth - Photography
I almost did a fanpost, but didn't think it was long enough
and since many ANers ignore the fanshots, I decided to post it in the Halliday trade fanpost
but given that it’s likely to generate lots of responses, it’s not a bad idea to let it have its own fanpost.
all I can say is “dayam”
In light of the good news regarding his back, the A's have decided to sign Eric Chavez to a six year, 45 million dollar contract.
Hence, they don’t need Wallace.
by LoneStranger on Dec 15, 2009 9:26 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
You are wrong
A B -3X = Swedish girls like chocolate @('.')@
by monkeyball on Dec 15, 2009 10:26 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I've been told that before, but no,
I think everything inside my head is working quite right, thank you.
Mostly right, anyway.
by LoneStranger on Dec 15, 2009 10:27 AM PST up reply actions
Don't do that
The heartbreak of the last 3 seasons of Chavez is still too painful. Don’t joke about that… :-(
by nobodyinparticular on Dec 15, 2009 9:35 AM PST up reply actions
Pretty sure there's an MLB rule stating that the undead can't play.
by ElQuesoCapitan on Dec 15, 2009 9:39 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Someone go tell Jamie Moyer, then.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
Brian Sabean disagrees with you
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 10:02 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
there's definitely an AN rule that states that.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 10:04 AM PST up reply actions
/cocks shotgun
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
um, that's a different site.
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 10:06 AM PST up reply actions
it's okay.
and…um, could you put your pants back on?
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 10:09 AM PST up reply actions
THE CAPTAIN NEVER TAKES HIS PANTS OFF.
by ElQuesoCapitan on Dec 15, 2009 10:10 AM PST up reply actions
Do you have a little Captain in you?
Do you want one?
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 10:27 AM PST up reply actions
Enh,
Earl used to be hot, but have you seen him lately? He’s really let himself go.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
/gets moltov cocktails ready
His name's Clayton, not Danny.
by walkoff baltimore chop on Dec 15, 2009 10:06 AM PST up reply actions
a rare WBC sighting!
Quick! Get the camera!
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 10:07 AM PST up reply actions
That's one bigass camera.
His name's Clayton, not Danny.
by walkoff baltimore chop on Dec 15, 2009 10:13 AM PST up reply actions
That camer and my grill.
The possiblities are endless.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Soil myself,
and then regroup and come up with another plan.
by LoneStranger on Dec 15, 2009 10:31 AM PST up reply actions
I'm sure we could rustle up a SwisherThresher.
by LoneStranger on Dec 15, 2009 10:52 AM PST up reply actions
OH MY GOD
SHE KILLED SWISHER
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
YOU BASTARD!
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 15, 2009 11:01 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Fox
It looks like the A’s have more faith in Fox at 3B than we do.
NOOOOOOOO!
Beane has gone senile, time to stick him in the Home.
It's just more exciting with Billy Beane running the team.
Or Beltre's coming to the Green and Gold
I like this proposition better. I don’t see much left in terms of Beltre suitors.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
Or Cardenas to 3B
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
or MacP
"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.
by DyeLongJustice on Dec 15, 2009 9:45 AM PST up reply actions
I think you are right about Cardenas.
It makes a lot of sense to move Cardenas over there and make room for Weeks. If you can get power out of Carter and Taylor, having a 15-20 hr guy who can hit 2 or 3 and set the table is perfect even if it comes from a typical power position like third.
Beane knows something that we don’t. Either Cardenas is shifting or Wallace was totally inadequate at 3rd or Taylor is a star in the making or all of the above. Either way, I really like the thought of Carter and Taylor anchoring the heart of the order for the next 5-6 years.
No law when it comes to me.
I let you type critics write and I just keep it hood.
That will never change.
I am not kissing no ones ass because I'm in LA. Suck a cock.
-Ron Artest (e-mail exchange with Kyle Slavin)
Cardenas makes the most sense to me as well.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 10:47 AM PST up reply actions
Please let it be this
we in the losin baseball binness. and cousin, binness is a boomin.
by walk off bunt on Dec 15, 2009 10:20 AM PST up reply actions
Pppppbbbfffffffwhat?!
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
by danmerqury on Dec 15, 2009 9:29 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
Wow. When was the last time two top prospects with no ML experience were traded straight up for each other?
I honestly can’t remember this happening before.
I think I like the move. Yes, the A’s have a lot of guys in the OF, but I think Taylor can be better than all of them.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 9:32 AM PST reply actions
Hannahan for Perry almost meets this
Hannahan had played only a couple of games for Detroit. Perry hadn’t played in the majors at all.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Except a 27-year-old Hannahan wasn't a top prospect
He really wasn’t even a prospect. He was just an old minor leaguer. Perry wasn’t a prospect at that point either.
Minor leaguers are traded for each other a lot (Charles Thomas/JD Closser a couple years ago). But these are two bonafide prospects. This is a pretty big deal if it goes through.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 9:44 AM PST up reply actions
Aha, I get it now.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Garza for Young?
Eh, I guess they both had service time already though.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
And there were other guys involved there
Maybe I’m limiting this thought too much to be relevant, but I just think a 1-for-1 trade of top prospects is a big deal.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 9:47 AM PST up reply actions
E. Vasquez for Josh Hamilton
Sorta similar?
by Colorado Fan on Dec 15, 2009 9:49 AM PST up reply actions
Again though
Hamilton had just played nearly a full year in Cinci after getting plucked in the Rule V draft. So, he wasn’t exactly a prospect.
I haven’t seen anything like this deal in a very long time, if ever.
Mind you, this is also the craziest offseason i can remember in recent memory…
"Did you know you can comment on Athletics Nation from your phone or PDA? SB Nation has launched mobile commenting. Check it out next time you’re at the game or bar and have something to say."
by stranahanahan on Dec 15, 2009 11:32 AM PST up reply actions
What. in. the. fuck.
His name's Clayton, not Danny.
by walkoff baltimore chop on Dec 15, 2009 9:34 AM PST reply actions
Good Move
Even the best projections of Wallace had him as a 3B for 2-3 seasons, then moving to 1B. Taylor is also a heck of a hitter, but is immediately the RF of the future. This clears things up from that perspective.
The A’s don’t have a long-term 3B, but didn’t really before this trade either.
Immediately
“immediately the RF of the future”
You sure about that timeline?
It's a poor wording, but the sentiment is valid
Taylor is the RF of the future (a phrase that implies he will be out there for the next half-decade), and he is also ready to take over immediately.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 9:39 AM PST up reply actions
I think the wording is fine.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Yes, poor wording
but he might actually be the RF on opening day. Regardless, we can pencil him in at that position, IMO. That was the point.
I repeat:
Bye Bye Buck? Seeya Sweeney? Hasta Hairston? Down-the-Road Davis? Gone-ingham?
by LoneStranger on Dec 15, 2009 9:52 AM PST up reply actions
RAJAI DAVIS FOR JJ HARDY
oh
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Right.
But someone has to go, and it isn’t always the ones that make the most sense.
by LoneStranger on Dec 15, 2009 10:01 AM PST up reply actions
He's better than Cust!
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 10:48 AM PST up reply actions
Meh
I see Suzuki, Anderson and Carter as really the only guys that Beane won’t get rid of. Unless we’re talking about a Wright, Hanley, or Longoria guy coming to us, Carter’s potential is too scary to lose…
But this is Billy Beane….my god please keep Carter…
"Did you know you can comment on Athletics Nation from your phone or PDA? SB Nation has launched mobile commenting. Check it out next time you’re at the game or bar and have something to say."
by stranahanahan on Dec 15, 2009 11:35 AM PST up reply actions
Carter for Devaris Gordon
Discuss
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 11:41 AM PST up reply actions
Are you serious???
"Did you know you can comment on Athletics Nation from your phone or PDA? SB Nation has launched mobile commenting. Check it out next time you’re at the game or bar and have something to say."
by stranahanahan on Dec 15, 2009 12:06 PM PST up reply actions
Sort of.
Trying to think of ways to get a real SS.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 12:29 PM PST up reply actions
I'd much rather have a guy who's closer to MLB ready
Gordon also has ZERO power. I mean he could be a a great leadoff guy but he just finished A ball at 21.
Not that I don’t like Gordon but if we’re giving up Carter for him we better get a better piece along with him.
Plus, it seems that Carter is undervalued outside of this organization.
"Did you know you can comment on Athletics Nation from your phone or PDA? SB Nation has launched mobile commenting. Check it out next time you’re at the game or bar and have something to say."
by stranahanahan on Dec 15, 2009 2:31 PM PST up reply actions
It's one thing to acquire a shortstop prospect.
It’s another thing entirely to bend over backwards to overpay for a mediocre shortstop prospect.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 15, 2009 2:33 PM PST up reply actions
I wouldn't call Gordon "mediocre" but it does sound
like an overpay.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 4:15 PM PST up reply actions
Its a massive overpay.
Gordon is way way raw and may never hit a lick.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 16, 2009 8:59 PM PST up reply actions
Good deal, IMO
We’re moving in the rigth direction on the defensive spectrum. Clears the long term path for Carter. Wallace is a 1b/DH type w/o a lot of power. We now have a future position player core of Weeks, Taylor, Carter, Green, etc. to pair w/ some strong pitching talent. Thumbs way up, from me.
I don't see how this clears a path for Carter.
Carter is more likely to stick at LF than 1B. If Wallace wasn’t sticking at 3B, he was probably headed for 1B. Taylor seems more likely to block Carter than Wallace was, unless you thought both Wallace and Carter were headed for DH.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Carter is certainly not likely to stick in LF
he’s a 1B/DH plain and simple. Do you really want Fred McGriff in LF? No. Thank. You.
If he can't play LF, he can't play 1B either.
1B just gives him that many more opportunities to drop the ball.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
I've actually heard he's probably better in LF.
He’s reasonably athletic, but just has concrete hands. In either case, we can fit Carter and Taylor anywhere in LF, RF, 1B, and DH.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
Its a defense upgrade
…..To Jack Cust!
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Dec 15, 2009 1:52 PM PST up reply actions
what's next
Chris Carter for the Phillie Phanatic? Can’t we give Wallace a chance to fail spectacularly on defense yet compensate by becoming the Howie Kendrick of third base?
If they try and bring Chavez back from the crypt, and pencil him him in for the requisite ABs, I might cry… but not as loud as he will after his spine gives up the ghost after 12 games and he’s paying the $6 million a year to a team of chiropractors from the future. Either that or somehow Fox has them hip-mo-tized that he is gonna hold it down at the hot corner for us, which seems like a fantasy to me.
I hope this ain’t true, I was sorta pullin’ for Wallace… this is sort of a lateral move for the meetings, odd.
Hey, I just bought the team from Lew Wolff... who wants to play third?
I hear it's lateral movement that Wallace had a problem with
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
I think its a good move
I have read that Wallace isn’t a very good fielder, therefore he wouldn’t be playing 3rd. I think Fox could handle third just fine, and Miles could fill in. I think Taylor is going to be very good, and I also think we are weak in the outfield. I don’t think Davis, Sweeney, and Hairston is a strong outfield by any means. They just confirmed this trade on MLB Home Plate BTW. They also said Taylor is Major League ready.
Taylor is the greatest prospect ever.
It looks like someone had a crush on Taylor this summer.
http://blog.pennlive.com/patriotnewssports/2009/07/phillies_prospect_michael_tayl.html
I like this one best:
Michael Taylor has more career sacks than unrelated namesake Lawrence Taylor and has written and performed better songs than James Taylor. He’s also better looking than Elizabeth Taylor.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
A better leader than Zachary Taylor!
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 10:49 AM PST up reply actions
Alright, so from what I could quickly find,
Michael Taylor – OF (Stanford)
Great all-around athlete, huge power to all fields, very intelligent hitter, is improving on plate discipline to go with his other million tools, very strong arm. Turns 24 in a few days. Get this—he’s two inches taller than Carter and 40 lbs heavier.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
THE A'S ARE CHOOSING THEIR OWN
If you keep Brett Wallace, turn to page 84.
If you trade Brett Wallace, turn to page 103.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
by Flashfire on Dec 15, 2009 9:42 AM PST up reply actions 15 recs
This has to get a rec.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
by Blicks on Dec 15, 2009 9:43 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Hah!
Dammit, you got it first.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
Holy shit, that was fantastic.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
CHOOSE YOUR OWN
Sign Eric Chavez, close the book and shoot yourself
Don’t sign Eric Chavez, pop the champagne.
by ElQuesoCapitan on Dec 15, 2009 9:46 AM PST up reply actions
this is quite possibly the funniest comment in AN history
I almost fell down, seriously.
Hey, I just bought the team from Lew Wolff... who wants to play third?
by emperor nobody on Dec 15, 2009 9:47 AM PST up reply actions
There is almost no way
to describe th laugh I made when I read this. I wish there was a way I could do something better than recommend it. It should almost be its own fanpost.
"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty
Amazing comment
+1 Made my day, and I just got hired at Prudential, terrible Michigan economy and all
Not just athletes, Athletics.
An explanation for the culturally deprived?
Well, for me anyways. To what does this comment refer? A game perhaps? I’d love to join in the laughs, but I’d feel silly since I wouldn’t know what I was laughing at.
Book series
If you grew up in the late 80s to mid 90s, they were ubiquitous.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
If you decide to trade Brett Wallace, turn to page 8.
If you decide to keep Brett Wallace, turn to page 43.
If you decide to sign Eric Chavez, you are dead.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
If Flashfire beats danmerqury by a minute...
I do like the addition of the ‘you are dead’ part though.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Heh. I really should read the thread again before clicking post.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
Hey!
Man, I miss the game threads.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!
Am I the only one who would read those books and try to make the worst, most fatal decisions possible?
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 9:46 AM PST up reply actions
(no, but you're not in good company)
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 10:05 AM PST up reply actions
I rarely am.
Well, except for the AN Day afterparty.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I might have been worse
If I made it through all the way safe I’d go back and try the deadlier routes!
The monster at the end of this blog.
Only
as long as you keep one finger on the page can you go back to it
Ooo! Piece of candy!
by ChickenStanley on Dec 16, 2009 1:11 AM PST up reply actions
Direct Trade with Phils
This trade gets done before the Doc trade, or maybe the Phillies keep him?
http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2009/12/15/1201695/blue-jays-to-trade-michael-taylor
"We're Menudo," -BB
Sounds like Taylor is going to the Jays first, and the trade will actually be between Oakland/Torono
At least that’s what Olney’s tweet says.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 9:49 AM PST up reply actions
Pretty Good Stuff
“Michael Taylor drew the first ever intentional home run. The opposing pitcher threw the ball over the outfield wall just so he could watch it leave the park on his own terms.”
“Pitchers consider it a success to limit Michael Taylor to hitting for the cycle. It means he wasn’t 4-for-4 with four home runs.”
Cust is the new Jaha.
by johnjahafanclub on Dec 15, 2009 9:53 AM PST up reply actions
That makes sense.
If Toronto is saying, “I don’t want to do this unless I know I can flip Taylor for Wallace,” then Philadelphia can say OK fine, and do the flip ahead of time. For Beane it makes no difference which team he trades with.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
But the Phils wouldn't want him at 1B, either
any more than the Cardinals did, and for about the same reason. And just like the Cards, they’d love to have him if he could play 3B. Then again, so would the A’s.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
The question is
Is MacP/Fox/Chavvy more valuable than Wallace’s future at 3b? If so, then why not upgrade somewhere else, rather than blocking him with good players. If not, then W…T…F…Mate.
"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.
I think Taylor is likely just a better prospect/player than Wallace
Don’t you make the trade based on that fact (assuming it’s true) alone?
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 9:48 AM PST up reply actions
If that's the case, then what's in it for the Jays?
I don’t know the Jays’ minor league prospects well enough. Are they set at corner outfield? Thin at 1b?
If they’re thin at 1B, then Wallace is the guy for them.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
They're set at 1B and OF
Vernon Wells is there for the foreseeable future, Overbay’s a FA after 2010, and they’ve got Snider, Lind, and an open spot comprising their cOF/1B spots. They could shift people around, although it would’ve been smarter for the Jays to keep Taylor since Lind and Snider are probably better suited to 1B/DH.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
Maybe it's just their turn to figure out that Wallace sucks at 3B...
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 10:10 AM PST up reply actions
The Cardinals, the A's, and the Phillies
would all love to have a young 3B who can hit, and all have a lot less need for a young 1B who can hit (although the A’s need one, they’ve got a number of prospects there, even without Wallace).
The fact that 3 teams who’d love a guy like Wallace if he can play 3B have traded him demonstrates to me that there’s a consensus that he can’t play 3B in the majors.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Technically he won't ever be on the Phillies...
But I agree with your logic. That’s what I was saying, too. Consensus has been reached!
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 10:15 AM PST up reply actions
Well, two of those teams haven't traded him yet.
And one of them might be skipped altogether if the three-way four-way goes in a different order.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
There's an ongoing debate about where to put Adam Lind.
LF, 1B, or DH.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Vernon Wells is signed for approximately 71 more years and $82 billion dollars
And he apparently can’t play CF anymore.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 10:22 AM PST up reply actions
yeah, but he's not going to let anyone else do it!
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
I'm annoyed at my own post. $ and dollars? Ugh. I blame it on being giddy about this trade possibility
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 10:28 AM PST up reply actions
I believe you mean McPhoxez
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 10:10 AM PST up reply actions
TejaMcPhoxezaus?
"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.
by DyeLongJustice on Dec 15, 2009 12:19 PM PST up reply actions
Is Michael Taylor better than CarGon?
"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.
Hitter, yes (I think so). But CarGon has turned himself into a plus CF
So he might have a bit more overall value.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 9:49 AM PST up reply actions
I'm guessing that Taylor's bat is ranked higher than CarGon's.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
I don't even want to think about CarGon
That first Holliday trade was just a freaking awful trade.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
Imagine Trogdor and Hercules in the same outfield.
Awesome.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Michael Taylor was a MAN!
I mean…he was a Dragon-Man!
If we could give multiple A’s players HSR nicknames I would be stoked.
Cliff Pennington = The Cheat
Jack Cust (yeah, I know…) = Strong Mad
Dana Eveland = King of Town
Chris Carter = Trogdor
Bobby Crosby = The Poopsmith
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 10:14 AM PST up reply actions
And Eric Patterson can be Homestar because he's got no arm
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 10:23 AM PST up reply actions
I figured Rajai Davis would be Homestar Runner
The Homestar Runner is a terrific athlete!
Bob Geren can be Marzipan.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 10:24 AM PST up reply actions
Bob Geren = Homestar Runner?
Bumbling guy with slightly awkward speech who does everything Strong Bad (Beane) tells him to.
by nobodyinparticular on Dec 15, 2009 11:18 AM PST up reply actions
no, Bob Geren is Coach Z
and I dont think Pennington is The Cheat. The Cheat is too cool.
Chris Carter can be Bubs.
Don't believe in yourself.
Believe in Me who believes in You.
HERE COMES THE CARTERMAN!
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
Hey hey hey
I see you hit a homer over some of my buses!
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 2:56 PM PST up reply actions
Who is SB?
I would say Eric Chavez considering his longevity, but he doesn’t have the attitude to match Strong Bad.
Oh, I KNOW!
Billy Beane! Yep, he pretty much runs the whole thing and he’s absolutely heartless. (see trade of the player who grew up idolizing Eric Chavez)
by nobodyinparticular on Dec 15, 2009 10:55 AM PST up reply actions
Mychael Urban
Kind of stupid, but answers people’s emails. Tries to make jokes, but most of them end up being unfunny.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 10:57 AM PST up reply actions
I like the real-world correlation...
The actually in’s and out’s of what they do fits Urban to a tee (especially about trying to make jokes and putting people down), but Strong Bad is actually a cool and fun character. Urban is, well, not cool.
by nobodyinparticular on Dec 16, 2009 10:20 AM PST up reply actions
"I'm Billy Beane, and you don't know it yet, but I'm the reason you're here."
Rajai: “It’s true.”
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
Haha
Awesome
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 11:40 AM PST up reply actions
I have a friend who lives in Hercules
just sayin’…
"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.
by DyeLongJustice on Dec 15, 2009 9:59 AM PST up reply actions
I've driven past Hercules.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I think I heard of it, when I lived in CCC...
Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -NM
by Leopold Bloom on Dec 15, 2009 10:08 AM PST up reply actions
We used to live in Hercules
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 10:15 AM PST up reply actions
yeah, I generally just drive on through on 80 when I'm headed to SF from Sac/Davis or vice versa.
"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.
by DyeLongJustice on Dec 15, 2009 12:23 PM PST up reply actions
I once had a cat named Hercules
[not really]
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
I had no idea there was a place called Hercules
But then I’ve never been to California.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 10:24 AM PST up reply actions
Missouri has a Herculaneum
It’s like Hercules but then more high tech
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 10:52 AM PST up reply actions
Is there a volcano near there?
If there is, they’re tempting fate…
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
it's the 21st century
they’ll get Pliny of warning
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
It's Missouri. It's flat as a pancake.
made with very fine flour.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 4:16 PM PST up reply actions
There is that "soft spot" around New Madrid
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
California Powder Works
was an explosives manufacturing company founded in the 1860s. It was the main supplier for the various big engineering/mining/railroad projects throughout the West before WW I.
The main company was in Santa Cruz, but in 1881 they opened a major dynamite factory up near Pinole. When a little town formed around the factory, the town was named “Hercules”, because their main brand of dynamite was called “Hercules powder”.
Longer history here.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
There was a dynamite factory at Albany Hill
just down five or six miles south of the works at Hercules.
When the factory at Albany Hill blew up, the blast could be heard in Sacramento, seventy miles away. In the immediate area, people spontaneously rushed to the site, but it was complete obliteration.
For you non-Californiians, Hercules right now is home to a large oil refinery, which makes living there relatively unhealthy.
"The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled."-Plutarch
by One won lost won on Dec 15, 2009 11:45 AM PST up reply actions
I agree.
His name's Clayton, not Danny.
by walkoff baltimore chop on Dec 15, 2009 9:51 AM PST up reply actions
Don't hold me to it but I think it was an organizational thing in their system
I’ve got pics of three different Lehigh Valley players at last year’s Triple-A ASG and they all have the high socks. Toledo’s (DET) done the same and I know KC has as well.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
yeah, it's more common in the minors for everyone to do it
but I’m just going to pretend that it was his choice. It’ll make me more inclined to like him…
by whiteshoes40 on Dec 15, 2009 9:53 AM PST up reply actions
He doesn't look pudgy.
That’s a good thing. b
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
Think of Taylor like a supersized version of Chris Carter.
The dude could probably cut it at linebacker.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
2011 A's: Supersize Me?
"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.
by DyeLongJustice on Dec 15, 2009 12:23 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, but
“linebacker” was used in the parent comment. I needed one word for the gag to have any punch. I couldn’t go with offensive or defensive line, because that those are a) two words and b) have baseball meanings as well.
If only I could think of another word for linebacker that starts with a “k.”
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
We're not selling jeans!
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Apparently we're selling Under Armor undershirts now
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 10:15 AM PST up reply actions
WE MUST PROTECT THIS HOUSE
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
hahahahahahahahahahaha....ha
"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.
by DyeLongJustice on Dec 15, 2009 12:24 PM PST up reply actions
Me too. Same thing happens when I see Chris Carter pictures.
Apparently I have a thing for large black men in baseball uniforms.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 10:24 AM PST up reply actions
Who doesn't, really?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Zigfan.
Or was that a different kind of uniform?
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
I miss ZF.
::sadpanda::
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Is she gone?
Did the zombies get her? Did she leave us for tennis, like Pam?
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Hey look!
They brought the infield in for Carter, and their 3B looks surprisingly like a camera…
by nobodyinparticular on Dec 15, 2009 10:52 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Can't stop laughing at this...
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 10:54 AM PST up reply actions
and a Canon for an arm
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
That is a large human being.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I'm seeing double....
Wow….is it just me or does that picture, size, swing, and his numbers/tools suggest Jermaine Dye? I’d take that ceiling in a heartbeat.
Several others have projected Wallace as having a Thome-type ceiling.
So that begs the question…if both these guys max their ability, would YOU trade Jim Thome for Jermaine Dye?
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Thome is a very high ceiling
Wallace will have to add a LOT of power to get up there.
Thome clearly had the better hitting career. However, Dye was a very good defender when he was younger/healthy. I think Thome is too high for Wallace, though. I like Morneau with a worse average and crappy D as a ceiling for Wallace. And I would take Dye’s career over Morneau with a worse average and crappy D.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 11:53 AM PST up reply actions
Agree on the power...
But Thome took a while for his power to develop (his breakout season was at age 25 (it always seems to take the big guys a little longer to put it all together).
Similar build and bodies. Thome came up as a 3B and ultimately had to be moved. Wallace will probably hit for a higher average and could top out as a 25-30 guy as opposed to a 35-40 guy.
Had Dye stayed healthy (losing age 28 and 29 to injury – two of a hitter’s most productive years age-wise) it could be argued that he could be in the discussion offensively with Thome.
In fact, as I look at it deeper, you’re probably right. Taylor projects closer to Dye than Wallace does to Thome. All the more reason I like the deal.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Should have been 29 and 30
Dye lost all of his age 29 season, and still wasn’t right the following year, even though he put up modest numbers.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Morneau's already not a particularly good player
Morneau with worse average and crappy D is a fringe big-leaguer at best. You basically just described Mike Jacobs.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Well
I thought he had a higher AVG (I didn’t check stats; mooched a post from another site comparing the two and thought it fit). How about just Morneau with worse defense? So basically the offensive value of Morneau, but not nearly the defensive value. And I’d take Dye’s career over that.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 2:59 PM PST up reply actions
Referring to Taylor's Picture further up above.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
This looks like it's about a year old or so
hot-prospects.net
Looks like porn if I didn’t see baseball on it.
by ElQuesoCapitan on Dec 15, 2009 9:55 AM PST up reply actions
Heh
A couple more from Sickels’ site:
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2009/11/26/1174658/thanksgiving-discussion-question
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2009/9/8/1014550/philadelphia-phillies-top-20-pre
Last of the Ninth - Photography
John Sickels.
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2009/7/23/960031/prospect-profile-michael-taylor
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
Our zombie mutant armada is growing!
Quote from JS regarding Taylor’s comp projections
Well [Carlos Lee] is possible as a maximal outcome. I still prefer a Pence/Cameron mutant cross.
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball." - Connie Mack
I liked the Kemp comparison
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 10:35 AM PST up reply actions
So instead of the Bash Brothers, Oakland now has the Monster Mash
Works for me.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 10:48 AM PST up reply actions
The Blash Brothers?
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
I like that on this one, it looks as if someone as scribbled over his crotch
to try and protect the children?
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
I'd rather give him 3 years.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Lets sign him to a Wakefield deal
with a 4M option every year for the rest of eternity.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Yeah, any more than 3 years
looks disasterous, especially considering how much of his value is in his defense.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
Or for a contract to turn into a disaster.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
Is Cardenas
not considered an option at 3b?
Cust is the new Jaha.
by johnjahafanclub on Dec 15, 2009 10:10 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, Cardenas has got to be looked at for 3B
Which I think may be a smart move, as he’d be a plus defender there, and we all know the value of defense.
Looking at the groundball tendencies of the pitching staff, it makes a LOT of sense to emphasize infield defense.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
Yay!
Somebody agrees with my pet peeve!
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 10:53 AM PST up reply actions
Dont think so
He’s another great bat/lesser glove type like Carter, Wallace etc. You might be able to sneak him there for a year or two, but he doesnt look like he has the range or arm for 3B.
Lesser glove at SS and maybe 2B, not 3B.
3B is a much less premium defensive position than either of those.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
3B is exactly as premium as 2B
They’re equally valuable on the defensive spectrum.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 10:26 AM PST up reply actions
That was in 1897
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 10:54 AM PST up reply actions
well SS is the most and 1B is the least
those I believe as true, is 2B defense really that huge?
Expanding i think it goes C-SS-CF-3B-2B-RF-LF-1B-P
Turning DPs is a very big deal, so having a 2B who can't do that well is a big problem
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
+1
and you can tell its true by the offensive numbers people put up in those positions…Though SS’s with offense has been a bit anomalous.
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Dec 15, 2009 2:05 PM PST up reply actions
Well, 3B and 2B get equal weighting when determining things like WAR
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 11:02 AM PST up reply actions
They demand different skills, though
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Agreed.
But the discussion was more about which defensive spot is more valuable.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 12:07 PM PST up reply actions
I know, I just wanted to mention
that even though they’re equally valuable, an individual player might be much better at one than the other (go back up to Blicks’s reply to PL78 above).
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s
Agree with this
Though it might not be worth more in terms of WAR, 3B is easier to physically play than 2B due to not needing as much range or having to worry about turning double-plays as the pivot. Cardenas is worth more to the A’s as a 3B simply because he’s better at 3B than 2B.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 12:23 PM PST up reply actions
The 2B range thing is overblown since 2B can play in
short RF and still throw people out at 1B. The reason Tango made them the same value is that he believed that they were about equally difficult to play….same as CF.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 12:27 PM PST up reply actions
Not just a belief
It’s backed up by players who move from one to the other— they perform very neutrally. (If there were substantial differences in skill-sets, we’d expect to see players who switch from one to the other perform better at the new position than at the old.)
There are still some unresolved correlation-causation issues here, admittedly, but all our current evidence says 3B and 2B are “the same deal.”
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
that being said
is fielding a bunt pretty important? Would that make 3B D more important in the NL than the AL?
Without basing it on anything statistically
I’d say no. One one hand, bunting is a lost art and just doesn’t really happen that much anymore, and on the other hand when bunts DO happen, they’re normally the sacrifice variety more than the “bunt for hit” variety. It’s not that hard to field a ball that’s bunted toward you on purpose.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
But there are other skills required at 3B
that are not needed at 2B. In particular, the 3B needs a strong arm. If you have a guy with great reflexes and agility but a weak arm (eg, Ellis) you can play him at 2B but not at 3B.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
I've always thought the the up-the-middle defensive positions
(C-SS+2B-CF) were the top defensive positions. The corner IF (1B+3B) and OF (RF+LF) were expected to have power.
3B definitely is more defensively important than 1B.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
They call in the hot corner for a reason
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball." - Connie Mack
yes, of course it's important
but there’s a reason that a good offensive SS who gets bigger (or slower) often gets shifted to 3B, not because the 3B defense isn’t important, but because ss — which is “up the middle” along with 2B — is considered more of a “premium” defensive position.
that's true
also, RF tends to get a better defensive player than LF. LF is the place where the outfielder with “average” skills tends to end up (on many clubs, anyway).
LF means shorter throws
teams can hide their weakest outfield arm there.
Unless that arm is attached to Patterson, in which case, there ain’t no hiding it anywhere
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
I heard they tried him at first base...
…but he two-hopped throws to second and made the pitcher dive for throws back after pickoff attempts.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Isn't arm the only reason for RF being more valuable than LF?
At least in a neutral, non-quirky park, the two positions are pretty much equal (arm canceled out by more action going to left, I guess).
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 12:09 PM PST up reply actions
Right
In a symmetrical park, that’s almost the only difference. There’s a very slight effect from the fact that about 60% of plate appearances are by righties and fieldable fly balls tend to be hit to the opposite field, but even that’s partially canceled out by righties being (as a whole) more grounder-prone.
In an asymmetrical park like Safeco or Yankee stadium, all bets are off. But the Coliseum is the most symmetrical park in the major leagues.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
We are set almost everywhere, we wont be needing money to splurge on FA's
Unless youre thinking about making a run at David Wright or something, Id rather have a plus defender/decent bat for 3 years declining to league average D/slightly below avg bat for 2. We really need a guy like Beltre over the next 3 years. We can always DFA or trade him later and eat the money.
Thats the crazy thing, we dont need too much money so overpaying for a guy at a gaping black hole actually makes some sense.
Arbitration raises
If your players turn into studs, you pay out the wazoo for them in arb. At one point, all the young studs will reach arb simultaneously. The A’s HAVE to be mindful of that.
If Chris Carter is truly beast, you could see some hellish arbitration rates.
The Giants are learning this the hard way.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
he's asking for 23
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
He hasn't asked for anything yet
That was speculation. I bet he gets close to $15. He’ll definitely make more than Howard did last year.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 10:25 AM PST up reply actions
sure, but
why wouldn’t he?
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
If Lincecum asks for $23 mil, and the Giants counter with a very reasonable $11 mil, the arbitrator will give it to the Giants. Lincecum’s contract will have an eye on Sabathia’s deal, but they also have to keep in mind the highest ever arbitration award given to a first-year arbitration-eligible player and the highest ever award given to a first-year arbitration-eligible pitcher. If Lincecum’s camp submits anything $15 mil or less I like them to win. If they go higher than that the Giants probably win. I could very easily see them settling for around $13 mil or so.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 10:29 AM PST up reply actions
Bear in mind that Lincecum has qualified for the special accomplishment exception, entitling him to ask for far more than the usual arbitration raise. The A’s younguns would have to turn in Pujols-esque numbers to earn the super salaries. It’s cost a pretty penny to take ‘em all through arby, but it won’t be franchise crippling money we’re talking about.
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball." - Connie Mack
that's what i'm going off of
two cy youngs in your first two full seasons…that’s pretty special.
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
It is...however...
If you’re the arbitrator, how much more are two Cy Youngs worth than one MVP? I agree that Lincecum SHOULD be making an assload of money, but arbitration is more of a game than a negotiation. You have to make your number an attainable figure, or you’re going to lose. The arbitrator can only choose one figure or the other; they don’t pick a number in the middle. I have a feeling if Lincecum’s side submits $23 mil, they’d lose. The Giants will just point out the arbitration awards given to Howard and whoever the highest pitcher was (Papelbon? I think Willis might be the highest STARTING pitcher, though), and then say they’re already offering MORE than those.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 11:18 AM PST up reply actions
I think it's important to emphasize
that “special accomplishment” is not something you “qualify” for. It’s just something an arbitrator can take into consideration— or not. And, of course, Ryan Howard could point to it as well…
If Lincecum asks for 23 million, he WILL lose. I think it’ll end up getting settled at 8-9, maybe 10 at most.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
I can't see him getting less than Howard
Two Cy Youngs in his first two full seasons in the big leagues WILL play into it. His representation will say “he’s never played a full season in which he didn’t win the Cy Young”. I can’t possibly see them not getting above what Howard got.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 3:00 PM PST up reply actions
how much did Howard get?
I think I read at some point that Lincecum might use Howard’s successful arbitration figures as a benchmark for his own demands.
$10M-- but that was a win at an actual hearing
The more typical “split the difference” approach would have gotten him $8.5M.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
he should
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
Well yeah but
the A’s tend to sign anyone they think is a future stud to a deal through their arbitration years. Although not all young players would want to make a deal, most would, meaning their costs would never be outrageous.
"To tell the truth, I'm not excited to go to Cleveland, but we have to. If I ever saw myself saying I'm excited going to Cleveland, I'd punch myself in the face, because I'm lying" - Ichiro
by Philip Christy on Dec 15, 2009 10:22 AM PST up reply actions
They have enough players that would hit arb at the same time though
Let’s assume Carter, Taylor, and Cardenas start their service clocks in 2011, like they should.
You’ve got Sweeney, Braden, Davis, Devine, Anderson, Cahill, Suzuki, Outman, Pennington, Barton, Ziegler, Gio (maybe) and Bailey all at some stage of arbitration, whether it be 1, 2, or 3, in 2012.
That’s going to be MASSIVE.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
that's probably when
one or two go for a star, and the a’s actually spend a little bit of money (and not on chavez)
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
and let's be fair
If they’re all good enough to get large raises, that’s a nice problem to have
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
absolutely
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
Only if they're paid in cash.
By the way, the bits I’ve read say Taylor is ML ready for 2010. I surely haven’t read everything. Are others saying he should wait till 2011?
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
my guess
he gets brought up in may or so after they give buck one more shot to play right…if buck does well he is traded, if he does poorly he’s sent to sacramento/cut after the season.
whether that is fair or not isn’t the point, since i still think (somewhat) highly of buck.
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
You can get burned on that too!
Obviously it goes two ways. Case in point: Bobby Crosby, Rich Harden.
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Dec 15, 2009 11:34 AM PST up reply actions
Terrence Long
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Harden was OK. T-Long on the other hand.....
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 11:36 AM PST up reply actions
Harden was great
……..When he played
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Dec 15, 2009 11:55 AM PST up reply actions
T-Long on the other hand was really durable
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 11:56 AM PST up reply actions
I thought he drowned in a fountain?
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 12:24 PM PST up reply actions
yesssssss
i was wondering if anyone else still read that site.
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
here's something from last summer
from Baseball America:
OF Michael Taylor, Reading (Phillies)
AVG OBP SLG AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS
.350 .414 .606 274 53 96 17 04 15 58 26 44 14 04
Three years ago, scouts liked to criticize Taylor as just another Stanford hitter with an inside-out swing. Now he’s a masher with surprising speed and star potential.
I think it's a good move.
I was really pulling for Wallace to stick at 3rd for at least a few years and stick with the organization awhile since he’s a local boy and grew up rooting for the A’s, but in the end, this will probably be a solid baseball move.
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
yeah, it's a bummer to trade someone away who clearly wanted to play for the A's
Alas, if the front office is higher on Taylor than Wallace so be it. I’m still a little shocked, but I guess it will pass.
Unless he's part of the trade
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 10:55 AM PST up reply actions
Chavez wouldn't be able to anyway, because he's going to shatter his back on Opening Day 2010.
by LoneStranger on Dec 15, 2009 10:56 AM PST up reply actions
One can mentor from a wheelchair
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 11:02 AM PST up reply actions
Yea, but can one mentor from one of these?
by LoneStranger on Dec 15, 2009 11:08 AM PST up reply actions
beeeep-beeeep
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Only if you're cool like Captain Pike is
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 15, 2009 12:42 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Now the Capt Pike in the new Star Trek movie is cool
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
He was a strong character.
I liked that he was a hardass.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 15, 2009 2:39 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Well, Taylor went to school at Stanford
so I think we can count him as a local hero, no?
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
Sure, even as a Cal Grad.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 10:59 AM PST up reply actions
Go Bears!
Fuck Stanfurd but….I’m cool with Taylor lol
Jack "The Must, Just has no Rust, ain't no Bust, after him the ladies Lust, turns pitchers into Dust, likes his pizza with no Crust" Cust
Perhaps he was traded because signing Beltre
is closer than we think?
Chavez is Plan A, going on Plan B. Then if Beltre is signed then he becomes Plan A+, with Chavez solid at “B”. Wallace becomes too far out, with limited range. Thus, moved for anyone connected to Stanford (where Billy Beane was supposed to go to school until he signed with the Mets. So Beane had Taylor on radar for some time).
"The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled."-Plutarch
by One won lost won on Dec 15, 2009 11:50 AM PST up reply actions
Chavez is Plan Zero.
Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you. ~Reggie Jackson
Beltre
I don’t see it. Unfortunately, I think the reason we got Fox is to go for a McPhoxez three-headed monster at 3B.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 15, 2009 12:44 PM PST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
MCPHOXEZ!
YES!
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 3:00 PM PST up reply actions
Cerberus McPhoxez
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Dec 15, 2009 3:36 PM PST up reply actions
I have the feeling Beane ALWAYS has ppl on his radar for some time. He always seems ready to deal when the time is right.
I always worry that players he acquires – especially ones with large upside – are just bargaining chips. We’ll just get used to the idea of having this guy, seeing how posittive it could be and poof. I’m not seeing how the problem at 3B is solved…..more trades in the wings??
I don't think it is. Guys were still taking physicals on the big trade, last I heard.
And this likely hinges on that.
by LoneStranger on Dec 15, 2009 10:26 AM PST up reply actions
Its time for Beane to start dealing away some OF depth
I could see a Rajai deal happening soon, and I can’t say I mind that considering the likelyhood of him regressing….plus thinking about the potential of a Carter/Sweeney/Taylor OF gives me a chubby.
I wonder if Omar Minaya wants to trade us Jose Reyes
Minaya is a dumbfuck, we all know that. Rajai’s got grission.
And the NY media LOVES Reyes… not.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
But then this is obviously a HUGE pipe dream.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
yeah it sucks we cant trade prospects to the Mets for wright+reyes
because Minaya doesnt know what they are.
Actually
if we make Eveland change his last name to Gomez, change Buck’s last name to Rodriguez, and then actually trade Henry Rodriguez as well, Minaya would probably bite.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Dec 15, 2009 10:49 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Dana Gomez
Is quite a name.
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on Dec 15, 2009 12:46 PM PST up reply actions
T the opposite of WSS
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Overbay out Wallace in
According to MLBTR, they’re looking to ship Overbay and consider Wallace the new man at 1B.
It's just more exciting with Billy Beane running the team.
Now that's stupid for the Jays.
Keep Wallace in AAA for long enough to gain a year of service time, since the Jays aren’t contending in 2010.
They did it with Snider, do it with Wallace.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
Probably better I suggest wallace is the "future" at the position.
It's just more exciting with Billy Beane running the team.
Sweeney Carter Taylor in the OF
Would make a hell of a start for a basketball team. Or bouncers at a strip club.
RIVER CATS: AAA CHAMPS!
If Monta Ellis can hit a curveball, we may have just solved multiple Bay Area sports problems...
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 11:03 AM PST up reply actions
Bailey and Anderson are big, strong guys too
If A’s can’t challenge Anaheim Angels for the AL West title next year, they can sure as hell challenge Hell’s Angels in a bar fight.
Ah the Tim Hudson strategy
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 12:25 PM PST up reply actions
At first glance, I'm good with this move.
The fact that we no longer have to wade through all the posts about how much Wallace’s defense sucks is just a bonus.
Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you. ~Reggie Jackson
Oh, boy
Another OF prospect! But not just any OF prospect. This one’s bigger and shinier!
Those 2011 A’s are going to take the league by storm with their new defensive formation of 5 outfielders and no infielders on the left side.
Also known as the Giambi shift.
Your day breaks, your mind aches.
You find that all her words of kindness linger on
when she no longer needs you.
September 2010 lineup?
Weeks 2B
Cardenas 3B
Taylor RF
Carter LF
Fox DH
Barton 1B
Suzuki C
Sweeney CF
Pennington SS
That’s a LOT of RH power potential in the middle.
I am not a fan of Swingles in CF
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Desme?
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
I don't understand why you want to get rid of a guy who was worth 4.1 WAR last year
In 134 games. The guy is clearly very valuable, I’ll take that over his lack of power anyday.
"Did you know you can comment on Athletics Nation from your phone or PDA? SB Nation has launched mobile commenting. Check it out next time you’re at the game or bar and have something to say."
by stranahanahan on Dec 15, 2009 11:54 AM PST up reply actions
I don't want to get rid of him.
I like him a lot more in RF than in CF.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
oh, yeah
After I posted that I thought that that was perhaps was you meant.
"Did you know you can comment on Athletics Nation from your phone or PDA? SB Nation has launched mobile commenting. Check it out next time you’re at the game or bar and have something to say."
by stranahanahan on Dec 15, 2009 2:28 PM PST up reply actions
I don't think the A's will have all of them up, come September
but doesn’t Fox stick out there like a sore thumb?
plus, needs more Doolittle, if we’re going all in
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
Does bring up a question
Was Taylor on Philadelphia’s 40-man roster?
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Nope
Not Rule 5 eligible until after 2010, as a 2007 college draftee.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
I like the phrase you mentioned...
“All in”….Looks like Beane knows that the stars really have to align from almost every position for the A’s to be competitive as a small market team. Seems as he has been acquiring / readjusting his hand left and right before he finds that almost perfect hand for a gamble on the River! If Fox / Pennington don’t stick, I’m sure Beane would do a midseason trade to fill those holes.
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
Plenty of OF and RP depth that could be traded at this point.
As disappointing as this team has been for a while, and as strange as some of the moves have been, the A’s are still in a position to pull something off and field a competitive young team.
Andrew Bailey for Reid Brignac
Discuss
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 11:37 AM PST up reply actions
What makes Brignac that much better than Grant Green?
Pass.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 11:38 AM PST up reply actions
He doesn't have to be better than Green. Only better than Bailey.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 11:42 AM PST up reply actions
You're missing my point
If we already have a capable SS option in the pipeline, why deal for one? Especially when the one you’re suggesting we deal for has an OPS under .800 in the minors? Bailey is worth more than Brignac, IMO.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 11:47 AM PST up reply actions
Because they don't have a capable SS on the team now, because
Green might not stay at SS, because they have a GB staff with a terrible IF defense, because Brignac is a plus defender at the most important IF position, because it’s almost always a good idea to trade a RP for a starting SS, and because Bailey had almost no value prior to 2009 and it might have been a fluke.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 12:03 PM PST up reply actions
Why is Brignac worth more to us than Pennington, then?
My point is that Brignac, from the looks of his minor league stats, anyway, sucks at hitting.
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 12:25 PM PST up reply actions
I know you weren't much of a Bailey person before this season
but, come on. The guy led the entire A’s system in whiffs in 2007. The only reason he went as low in the draft as he did is that he was still recovering from TJS and people didn’t know whether he’d come back 100% (he did).
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
So that would be a "NO" then?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 4:19 PM PST up reply actions
No to what?
I’m just saying Bailey probably won’t regress as much as you think because he has a solid pedigree.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
I think he means "no" to the
Bailey-Brignac trade proposal.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
How far is Green down the pipeline?
We don’t even know if he’s going to be in the Majors by 2011. Let alone contribute. (though I don’t necessarily think Brignac is the answer either)
by OnlybuyBeaneJerseys on Dec 15, 2009 12:05 PM PST up reply actions
this is a problem
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 12:22 PM PST up reply actions
+1 if the year is 2007 then Brignac makes sense
but now he’s shown he isnt very good at baseball, we could get a much more delicious bounty for Bailey than just a washed up AAAA prospect.
Hmmm..
so in retrospect, the original Holliday trade becomes:
Michael Taylor + 1/2 year of Matt Holliday for Huston Street, Greg Smith, and Carlos Gonzalez
Michael Taylor = Carlos Gonzo
1/2 year Matt Holliday = Huston Street
Greg Smith = Nothing
This looks much better than with Wallace IMHO….
Look forward to the Monster Mash of ’11 w/ Carter + Taylor!
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
You also have to view the actions of the trades.
If Street wasn’t dealt then Bailey may not have come up.
If Cargon wasn’t dealt then maybe Raji doesn’t get his big chance
If Greg Smith isn’t dealt then maybe we don’t see all of the new Big 5
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
Hopefully that's now
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 4:20 PM PST up reply actions
at the moment there are 39 players on the A's 40 man roster
so there’s no need for an immediate move if the A’s actually do get Taylor
Innovative
Let’s use 5 OFs, a pitcher, a catcher, Pennington on the left side , and Ellis on the right side and pray everything is a fly ball or a strike out and concede most grounders. Ellis will cover first
Just tell the pitchers to throw high in the zone...
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
Should we..
trade for Zito again then? ;)
"Twenty minutes," says Jack Sr. "Thank god for Billy Beane."
"Any fan that wants us to do that is going to be disappointed because that just isn’t us." - Wolff
No... the trick is to get them to hit flyballs that go between 120 and 300 feet.
Not 300+.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
2 feet would be OK too
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 11:25 AM PST up reply actions
I predict lots of bunts.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Just tell the pitchers to run toward the 3B line after pitching high in the zone
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 11:28 AM PST up reply actions
I was advocating last year not using a catcher at all
you have to bring up the backstop, so the ball bounces back to the pitcher when the hitter misses / doesn’t swing.
you can play three up the middle on the infield, depending on the handedness of the batter.
There are no flaws with this, as far as I can see.
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
Catcher is the one position
that’s required by the rulebook. Other guys can be wherever they like, but you have to have a guy behind the plate.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
If it's Rajai, he can also be 1B
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 11:37 AM PST up reply actions
Pshh. It's only because the umpires are too lazy to pick the ball up themselves
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
Any updates?
If Beane pooped out a 3b yet?
I guess this will start a chain reaction of moves. Cardenas to 3b relies on hope that there is not anymore stalled progress of Weeks being the future 2b.
For the near future, Fox and Barton jobs are safe. They have a ridiculous OF jam now, Buck, Hairston , Rajai, Sweeney. Any of them could be gone soon.
If Beane actually trades a 3b, like Gordon, Callaspo, Kouzmanoff, Headley, Laroche for a following move
Does this mean Hairston, Buck, or Davis are gone?
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
Value
I think Sweeney has more value than the others and thus makes him the most likely candidate to be dealt.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 11:43 AM PST up reply actions
But he's also the only one who might still be in the majors in 2 years
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 11:59 AM PST up reply actions
I don't see any reason why Davis wouldn't be in the majors in 2 years
he’s not that old, and there’s no reason yet to think he won’t play well enough to stick around for a while.
I’m going to reserve judgment on Hairston since he was clearly playing hurt with the A’s.
Buck's gotta go out in one of these deals sooner or later
He’s just wasting space right now, especially if this deal with Taylor goes through. Wuertz + Buck for someone else, methinks
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 15, 2009 12:46 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
tears of joy
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
It's okay, we'll take a up a collection to help you pay for you guys' love child
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 15, 2009 1:13 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I'm trying to make you feel better.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I'm being nice.
I’ll only take a 10% cut for processing fees.
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 15, 2009 1:55 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
how do you know it's not?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I guess it could be mine
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 15, 2009 2:42 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
From MLB Daily Dish
and I quote…
ESPN.com’s Buster Olney is reporting that the Phillies are talking with the A’s about sending top prospect Michael Taylor to the Athletics for top prospect Brett Wallace….
Taylor was rumored to be apart of the Roy Halladay deal, but this is in fact a totally separate deal. Wallace gives the A’s a future power bat that will be slotted nicely behind Ryan Howard and Chase Utley.
To which I respond: I’ll have what he’s having.
This is why I don't read that stupid site.
It makes MLBTR look smart.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
shouldn't it be Wallace gives the "Phillies" . . .
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
Is Gordon a long-term 3B?
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
Yes
And Sweeney for Gordon is unrealistic.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 11:43 AM PST up reply actions
Sweeney's a better player right now
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 11:46 AM PST up reply actions
Clearly
Gordon’s OPS last year was .703 and it was his third year in the league.
Plus, the Royals have Josh Fields.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 11:50 AM PST up reply actions
OK then I'm in favor of trading Sweeney for Gordon.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 12:00 PM PST up reply actions
OPS
That number is reason enough for you to trade Sweeney for Gordon? You do realize that Sweeney’s was higher, right?
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Dec 15, 2009 2:47 PM PST up reply actions
You tricked me!
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 4:20 PM PST up reply actions
This has been picked up by one of the A's beat writers
Joe Stiglich. He asked Beane about trading Wallace, and got a “non-denial” response.
Stiglich says it’s Wallace to the Jays…it only happens if the rest of the deal goes through and the Jays get Taylor.
a bit more detail
in Stiglich’s Oakland Tribune article:
The A’s obtained Wallace in July from St. Louis as the centerpiece of the Matt Holliday trade, and he’s viewed as one of the club’s top two prospects along with first baseman Chris Carter. But the A’s recently dealt for third baseman Jake Fox, himself a young player that the A’s think highly of.
There is talk that Wallace could be a better long-term fit at first
Advertisement
base. But the A’s already have a glut of prospects at first, including Carter, Sean Doolittle and incumbent starter Daric Barton.
And it’s known that Oakland loves Taylor, a Stanford product, as a prospect. Baseball America rated the 6-foot-6, 260-pound Taylor the Phillies’ No. 6 prospect before the 2009 season, as well as their best power hitting prospect.
If Oakland loves Taylor so much, and Taylor was not on the Phillies 40-Man roster ...
why didn’t we pick him in the Rule V draft?
Taylor probably didn't have to be on it yet, or I'm sure someone would have grabbed him.
Brett Wallace isn’t on the 40 man roster either, and he couldn’t be selected. It has to do with when they were drafted.
by LoneStranger on Dec 15, 2009 2:22 PM PST up reply actions
I dont hate this move.
Taylor is a monster and can play D.
"Carter's 25-game hitting streak isn't any normal streak. He's 46 for 97 (.474 average) during the run, adding 16 walks and compiling 81 total bases in the process. I'm out of superlatives for what he's doing." - Kevin Goldstein
Thank god we can stop talking about cust now
discuss
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
If Wallace is limited to 1b
If he’s healthy, I wouldnt be shocked if A’s prefer Doolittle over Wallace as a player. The A’s brass seems to love this guy despite not hitting well anywhere but thecal league and AFL
Well... here's BA's report on Taylor
Since you need a password… the highlights
Strengths: Few holes in his swing, especially for a big guy. Excellent raw power, average speed and good baserunning instincts. Solid defender, arm is strong for LF… maybe average for RF.
Weaknesses: Needs more loft to his swing to reach 30 HR. Conditioning will be a long term concern. Had juvenile diabetes.
The monster at the end of this blog.
nice
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
Of course everything I've seen suggests he's a very hard worker
Diabetes is really only a concern if he doesn’t take care of himself, and that’s not the type of guy he seems to be.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 12:06 PM PST up reply actions
I blame Wallace
An offseason 3-4 months of nutrisystem and P90x, there’s no reason he cant change his body
Beane has been talking a lot about RH power hitters
And he’s been cherry-picking these guys lately – Carter, Taylor, Fox, Desme maybe even Green.
Taylor and Carter are really big dudes.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
It's a horrible take on the Transamerica Pyramid.
Once again, I’m sorry.
"You're just jealous. You wish you had a rally animal..." -CardinalWraith
Does Taylor have an injury history?
Ben Badler’s Twitter mentioned that he left winter ball to get his elbow examined.
what the crap is going on!
I have no idea what the future looks like in Oakland.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
that's even worse to think about
I don’t like change!
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
Underpants!
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 3:02 PM PST up reply actions
>:-(
That link crashed my browser.
Now I’ll never be able to figure out which comments were unread in this monster thread.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
It's be great if we could reset that ourselves for a thread.
For example, I can reset it to yesterday at 8pm, and then everything posted after that would appear new again. It’s like becoming a born-again virgin.
by LoneStranger on Dec 16, 2009 8:17 AM PST up reply actions
That's an improvement,
but still doesn’t solve the problem if you’ve read through the top half of a thread, since the reply threading puts them in non-clock order.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
If you've read through the top half, then you should be able to find the start of the part that you missed.
Then you read down from there, while anything new above you is yellow. Right?
by LoneStranger on Dec 17, 2009 8:30 AM PST up reply actions
I don't know if this was linked already...
But holy SHIT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDZqtBpcWWw
That was a bomb.
"You're just jealous. You wish you had a rally animal..." -CardinalWraith
He is frickin' HUGE
Apparently Beane is leveraging the undervalued commodity of terrifyingly big players so that pitcher will not pitch us inside for fear of a memorable *ss kicking. Think Lackey would have hit Taylor or Carter?
by mikedaviswhereareyou on Dec 15, 2009 12:44 PM PST up reply actions
“Stick that mothe…. oh Hai. Um excuse me sir, can I have the ball back?”
"The ego, the super-ego, and the Ed" - danmerqury
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 3:03 PM PST up reply actions
He has the facial profile of Chris Webber, NBA player
That’s who I thought of when I say that video.
"The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled."-Plutarch
by One won lost won on Dec 15, 2009 2:33 PM PST up reply actions
As I sometimes say too often
My cousin, now with the Mets org, played at Stanford with Michael Taylor. The single most amazing thing I have ever seen on a baseball diamond is a Michael Taylor home run… It was on a cold night in Santa Clara.
It was Alumni Night at Schott Stadium and out behind the left field fence there was a big white tent for an Almuni barbecue. It was about 25 feet tall and 380 feet from home plate at it’s peak. Michael Taylor turned on on inside fastball, and with a swing that looked effortless, hit it over the tent. I am not sure how far, because it disappeared from site. But ti was still 7-10 feet above the peak when it went over.
um... YESPLZ.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
seriously
That thing hit the scoreboard, did it not?
"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey
by cuppingmaster on Dec 15, 2009 1:14 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Need a stronger word than "hit"
maybe crushed, demolished, obliterated, something like that.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Pureed?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
that works.
He can vapomutilate, and Carter can burninate.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I want to hear Ken Koirach say..
“Taylor just vapomutified that ball!” and then in the enxt at bat
“Crush Carter has decimetroficated that one!”
"this blastification brought to you by Tapp plastics"
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
wow
HR completes the cycle and ties the game in the bottom of the 9th.
5 hits, 4 rbis, 12 total bases too.
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
Man his swing really reminds me of someone...
But I can’t quite place it.
I still see a lot of Jermaine Dye in this guy.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
I was thinking he reminds me of a young Big Hurt
The brotha is just mammoth!
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
Eric Chavez
The last year Eric Chavez was fully healthy and performed up to expectations was 2005. In 2006 and 2007, his hitting performances were poor because of back injury. And the last two years were pretty much entirely lost.
Has ANYONE come back to full performance after that kind of injury history, in the entire history of baseball?
Just for clarification's sake:
Chavvy was hurt in 2005, but he played through it. It’s just that no one really noticed because he is such a goddamn MAN that his stats barely dipped.
But please ignore that OBP…
what's the record for most consecutive years with a decline in OPS?
after barely changing at all for four years, chavy’s has declined every year from 2004 to 2009.
let’s see if he can get it below .250 next year…
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05
Wait, hold on a sec...
has this trade actually happened yet?
Also, I really hope Cardenas works out…he’s pretty much the only hope for third base right now.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
It's pretty much done
If all players envolved in the earlier superdeal pass the medical exam.
ST will be fun...
….purely for the morbid curiosity of seeing who will spontaneously combust first – Chavez or McPherson
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Or at least whose back will disintegrate into powdery Tang.
Yum….Tang.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Ah...
No wonder we traded Wallace!
Forst said that Eric Chavez has no pain in his twice-repaired back and he is expected to start throwing at the beginning of January. The A’s were very happy with the report on Chavez. Which is always good to get the conversation going below….start!
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
If Chavez has no pain
He probably just died.
by Manstein on Dec 15, 2009 1:33 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
who had december 15th in the 'A's encouraged by Chacez progress' sweepstakes?
come on down and collect your prize
I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does.
www.goalsonfilm.com
Next up: "Chavez felt a twinge and was scratched from the game today."
Pick your dates!
JJ Martin
The best way to catch a knuckleball is to wait until the ball stops rolling and then pick it up. ~Bob Uecker
Day 2 of ST
Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you. ~Reggie Jackson
This is terrible news
"Who's this Seagon guy? Is he in A-ball or something?" - Billy Beane
by pickinmachine on Dec 15, 2009 1:33 PM PST up reply actions
No pain? So he's paralyzed. That'll probably hurt his lateral range.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 3:36 PM PST up reply actions
Chavez in Traction Bobblehead Day 2010
Look for it!
Ooo! Piece of candy!
by ChickenStanley on Dec 16, 2009 1:34 AM PST up reply actions
Biggest what-if's in our season:
What if Fox and McPherson are the new Custs?
Um, we could be really good next year if that happens. Like REALLY good.
How?
Chris Carter is the next Hank Aaron right?
by streetisclosedin08 on Dec 15, 2009 1:33 PM PST up reply actions
Well, taking a flyer on old guys hasn't panned out...
…so if they’re going to take risks with guys, I’d rather it be cheap money for a guy like McPherson who is 29, showed plenty of pop in the minors, and was never given enough time in the show to get comfortable.
If back surgery is a 50/50 proposition, then the odds of ONE of them not dying in Spring Training is actually pretty decent.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
McPherson hit 42 HR in 127 AAA games in 2008
And has been a constant 950+ OPSer in 4 years at AAA, sound familiar?
Fox was the benefactor of this campaign.
One difference....
He’s .296 career hitter in the minors, and thought he strikes out a lot, it hasn’t been at Custian levels.
Truthfully, I’m more excited about having two guys names Dallas playing for Oakland.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Cust is a .290 career hitter in minors too
Or something like that.
You're right...
Cust sits at .286. But the strikeout numbers are far more prodigious with him.
And McPherson can adequately field a position – though that position might not be 3B any longer.
I’d still rather take a $500,000 flyer on McPherson, then pay Cust $4+ million at this point.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
McPherson does not have Cust's plate discipline
and his recent hitting line was compiled in what is literally the most hitter-friendly baseball park currently in use in the world— Albuquerque.
I’d expect either him or Chavez to be in the low .700s OPS-wise if they actually take the field— i.e. not an asset with the bat, and dismally horrible as a DH. Fox at least has a chance to reach 1-1.5 WAR as a DH, though he too is a major downgrade from Cust.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Major downgrade?
Maybe over 2007 Cust. But I’m pretty sure Fox can beat 2009 Cust numbers, maybe reach 2008 ones. Guy does have a 1.034 OPS in 99 AAA games, and Iowa is one of the more pitcher-friendly parks in PCL as far as I remember.
Naw.
Jake Fox is nowhere near the hitter Jack Cust is. He crushes fastballs but can’t hit any quality breaking pitches. Unlike Cust however, he’s intent on swinging at all those things he can’t hit.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 15, 2009 2:31 PM PST up reply actions
And on a side note
I really wish people would give up the Jake Fox can be like Jack Cust assumptions. I mean just because Fox is white, fat, has power, and sucks at defense like Cust doesn’t mean he is just another Cust.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 15, 2009 2:36 PM PST up reply actions
Um, hello --
first name begins with “J”? Twinsies!!!!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Entire concept of "being Jack Cust"
Is incredibly overrated on this blog.
....
Jack Cust draws walks. Jack Cust draws walks because he’s patient and doesn’t swing at everything. That, along with power, makes Jack Cust a good hitter.
Jake Fox doesn’t draw walks. Jake Fox swings at everything. Therefore, Jake Fox is not Jack Cust.
That’s all I meant.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 16, 2009 1:20 PM PST up reply actions
If the only thing we knew about him was that he had a 1.034 OPS in 99 AAA games, that would be one thing
The problem is that he has a long history of being worse than that at lower levels, even levels that he was old for.
I’m not saying he shouldn’t get a shot— but CHONE has his projection as +6 runs. Over a full season at DH, that’s about a 1 WAR player. Cust’s projection is +22 runs, basically a win and a half better. Even the San-Saru would call that a major downgrade.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Well, Cust has disappointed CHONE once already
And Fox is hard to project with limited big league experience and minor league numbers all over the board.
My point is, nothing is set in stone regarding Cust/Fox, except the fact that Fox will be 10 times cheaper than Cust would be if he was tendered a contract.
OK
It is conceivably logically possible that Willie Bloomquist will be a better player next season than Matt Holliday.
Does that mean that I cannot say that Matt Holliday is a clear upgrade from Willie Bloomquist?
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Beane's logic
is probably…
“Fox makes ten times less than Cust. If Fox is less than ten times worse than Cust, we’re getting a bargain!”
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 16, 2009 4:50 PM PST up reply actions
Yes, Cust is to Jake Fox
What Holliday is to Willie Bloomquist. If you are going to build strawman like that, don’t use Internet for anything but porn.
Straw man?
I’ve repeatedly offered you chances to quantify exactly what you think a “clear upgrade” means, or why a 16 run difference between their projected values is not one. You’ve chosen to respond with the postmodernist-everyone-throw-their-hands-in-the-air-because-nothing-is-ever-truly-knowable business. Fine. But when I respond with a hypothetical designed to test that argument, you claim it’s a “straw man.”
OK.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
So if I'm not accepting as a gospel
Projection system’s attempt to derive hypothetical raw offensive numbers into a hypothetical run difference between Cust and Fox, I’m taking a postmodernist view of things?
That being said, I would like really like to see their respective basement-ceiling stretch according to CHONE, not just the final prediction. I feel like there’s probably a significant overlapping between Cust’s basement-ceiling and Fox’s, with Cust’s basement and ceilling being somewhat higher. In my opinion, that’s a risk worth taking since Fox is ten times cheaper than Cust would be if he was offered arbitration. On the other hand Holliday’s and Bloomquist’s basement-ceilling is not overlapping at all. That’s why I don’t consider Fox a “major downgrade”.
This could all of course turn to be a purely academic discussion if Cust comes back to Oakland on a 1-2MM deal, which is not out of question.
by Manstein on Dec 18, 2009 12:20 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I'd like to see it too
Again, though, what percentage of overlap does there have to be for it to be a “significant downgrade”?
A brief Google search doesn’t turn up any analysis of what the standard deviation of hitting value from year-to-year is. For simplicity’s sake, let’s just assume that each 10 percentile points are worth 5 runs over or under projection.
Fox then needs to be around 30% better relative to his projection than Cust needs to be relative to his. If I’m not mistaken (anyone with a better grasp on the math is free to chime in here, because this is very back-of-the-envelope), that gives him about a 28% chance to be the better player next year.
I’d say that a 72% chance that you just made your team worse is pretty significant.
Holliday’s odds of being worse than Bloomquist are roughly the percentage chance that he suffers a season-ending injury in spring training and Bloomquist doesn’t… which is small (0.5%?), but not zero…
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
You think there's a 1 in 200 chance
that Holliday suffers a season-ending injury in spring training?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
6 MLB players out of 1200? Sounds plausible-ish, yeah...
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
I think it might be worth mentioning that Bill James system really likes Fox
They have him as a .284/.339/.546 hitter next year, that’s way better than CHONE projection and even better than James’s projection of Cust in 2010. I must say that even I don’t think Fox is capable of slugging .546 in majors, but it seems like he has some fans in baseball projection business.
He was reasonably good last year with the Cubbies, actually even better than his batting line shows. He had a .285 BABIP when his xBABIP was .319 (and his AAA BABIP was insane .431). Cust is obviously a safer commodity because of his longer major league record but I still think that Fox has a very good chance of not being a major downgrade. And with $4MM extra cash left, team can use that money to bridge the theoretical Cust-Fox value gap by getting better in some other way.
In the world?
What about Foro Sol in Mexico City?
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
This is a fair trade
If the following chain reaction of moves occurs…
3b conversion of cardenas and/or donaldson.
If they dont consider internal 3b options, they use their OF, pitching depth to find a 3b from another team (Gordon, Laroche, Headley, to name a few).
If they werent sold on wallace at 1b, they likely have same issues with Fox (Unlike wallace, fox can at least fill in at other positions in emergency siuations).
This trades basically gives a slight vote of confidence in Barton.
As a 1b, I’m not shocked if the front office prefers doolittle (if healthy) over wallace.
The OF depth will be lessened soon, more likely its Buck, selling high on sweeney or rajai, trading a semi expensive Hairston.
It's so funny to read you posting both here and on LL
as if you’re a diehard fan of both teams.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I enjoy all AL West teams
Except the angels. Grew up in seattle. Moved to the Bay Area for school. Nothing wrong with being a BI sports fan
Well, being in the Bay Area is probably the best place for a BI sports fan to be accepted.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
As someone with a ruptured L4, L5...
…and other assorted spinal/pelvic issues, I can tell you it’s a no-win situation. Without fusion, your back can jump out of place from any sudden movement (yeah, like that doesn’t happen at 3b) and with fusion, you lose a tremendous amount of lateral movement.
You can’t win either way. As an outfielder, it might be possible to come back, because your movements aren’t as quick and jarring (and believe it or not, diving isn’t as hard on the low back as those sudden, twisting movements are).
But I can’t even imagine trying to come back from all those back surgeries (two each for Chavez and McPerson, right) and trying to play the hot corner. It just isn’t going to happen.
Wouldn’t be surprised at all to see those two in a lefty/righty DH platoon to try and keep them healthy and their bats in the lineup – until Carter forces his way into the conversation.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Psh...tell that to the A's.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Dec 15, 2009 1:35 PM PST up reply actions
I'd be interested in seeing how McPherson and Chavez pull off a lefty/righty DH platoon
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 3:11 PM PST up reply actions
what if McPhavez are, like, really good guessers though?
They could carefully lay down, glove outstretched, in the direction that they predict the ball will go, prior to the pitch being thrown.
Web Gem.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Dec 15, 2009 3:20 PM PST up reply actions
Chavez and McPherson both hit lefty, though.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Dec 15, 2009 3:20 PM PST up reply actions
That was what I was saying above
I don’t think anyone got it, though. :(
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 3:42 PM PST up reply actions
I know....whether we like it or not...
Chavvy is a Beane favorite. He will, once again, be given every chance in the world to show he can play everyday at 3B in Spring Training.
It’s sad really. If everyone would put their damn egos aside for three seconds, he could at least have a shot at finishing out a decent career as a DH.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
What other option is there?
Chavez will make $12.5 million next yr, they want some production and value from it. Thisisnt the dodger,yankees, red sox where they can just pay their lousy players to go away.
The money owed to Chavez is a sunk cost.
They will be paying him no matter what, but he’s been unable to play baseball for a long damn time now. Assuming he’ll be able to play… again… is a mistake, and saying that he makes a lot of money so the team shouldn’t bother looking for another long term 3B solution is a bigger one.
I want Adrian Beltre for Christmas.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Agreed
And that’s why I don’t understand the lack of urgency to move him to DH immediately and try to get something out of their investment. No way a twice repaired back holds up to the rigors of 3B – but the A’s will try it anyway.
NOT a Beltre fan here unless it’s a one year deal. Guy has had two big years in his career, both FA years. No thanks.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Sorry....
After watching JaMeatLoaf takes the money and run, I’m a little jaded about guys who only show up when a big payday is on the line.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Scratch that...
Jeez, what is wrong with me today!! Totally brain-farted Beltre’s 2009 season. Sorry.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Beltre has been worth almost exactly what he was paid by Seattle.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
I see .265/24/82....
…over the course of the contract. That’s worth 13 mill a year for 5 years?!?
Maybe I’ve just been an A’s fan too long. I can’t fathom that kind of cash for that kind of production.
(Yeah I know, Chavvy’s deal was similar for far less production.)
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Besides, who on the A's would be able to pull this off?
From Wikipedia:
“Beltre’s decision not to wear a cup despite playing third base has been well-documented. This really came back to hurt him on August 13, 2009, when he took a hard ground ball to the crotch.
Although he stayed in for the remainder of the 14 inning victory, he was put on the DL after suffering bleeding in one of his testicles.
In his first game back from the DL from that injury, teammate Ken Griffey Jr. conspired with those responsible for the Safeco Field PA system to have Beltre’s at-bat intro music be the waltz from…
…The Nutcracker Suite."
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
Unfortunately for Jr.
On the way up the stairs to the PA announcer, he bumped into a peanut vendor and strained a muscle, necessitating a trip to the DL.
@worldblee on Twitter.
An A could pull off
any injury scenario
will crosby spread his legs so far apart at bat that the games will have to be rated nc-17 -- emperor nobody
Well, the simplest explanation:
You’re ignoring defense. Beltre’s defense is fantastic.
If you peek at Beltre’s fangraphs.com page here (<—- click that) and then you go to the Fielding section, specifically the UZR data, you can see that aside from what appears to be a fluke in 2007, Beltre has been a really, really good defender at third base.
Then, if you look farther down at the “Value” section, you can see his actual salary vs. what he was actually worth. I’ll save you the time and tell you he’s been worth about 67 million dollars while being paid 64 million during his Mariner contract.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Smart baseball teams don't pay players for RBIs
They pay players for wins, and Beltre has provided almost exactly what he was paid in wins.
A lot of that was in his defense, and that should make him a bit undervalued.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 3:42 PM PST up reply actions
Adrian Beltre's WAR in Seattle:
2.5, 4.6, 3.0, 4.1, 2.4. Its not the ridiculous 10.0 he had that one year, but from 3B, those are solid and worth a 3-5 year deal. The predictor on fangraphs (take it with a grain of salt though) projects him to be 4.1 in 2010.
To compare, Adam Kennedy had a 1.7 for us last year, and we were all really stoked on him, werent we? Beltre just has to be a 2.5 one to be considered a success here.
I'm not saying you guys are wrong.
I’m saying 13 million a year is ridiculous for a guy who had one monster year, and other grades out at a ‘B’ overall.
It’s the economics of the game that I’m pissed at. That, and all of these crazy sabermetric/cinematronic acronyms that I don’t understand, and don’t care to. I’m old fashioned – I trust my eyes. Forgive me.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
So you want to keep your head in the sand on purpose?
Even if it’s not 100% exact, it’s pretty damn accurate to go to a guy’s fangraphs page and look at his WAR.
It’s not some crazy voodoo magic, you can calculate it pretty easily if you want to, but it’s not necessary.
- Wins are easy to understand.
- Assigning a win value to a player is easy to understand.
- Assigning a dollar amount to a win is easy to understand.
Given these 3 facts, it’s pretty simple to compare what a player was paid to what he was actually worth. In Beltre’s case, he was worth almost exactly what he was paid. The fact that he’s probably going to take a pay cut makes him an ideal target for the A’s, because he’d more than likely be a great bang for the buck signing, even if he cost $10M per year.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
When it comes to baseball....
….Yes, I do want to keep my head in the sand on purpose.
I’m sorry if you don’t understand it. I don’t know how old you are, and maybe that has nothing to do with it. But burying myself in those kinds of numbers (WAR? Isn’t that something you do with guns?) completely ruins baseball for me.
I guess I just have too many wonderful experiences as a child going to games and rooting for my hero’s.
I’m truly sorry if the younger generations have lost that, and have turned the whole thing into computer generated gyrations.
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
by nodaclu on Dec 15, 2009 2:44 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Curious-- do you actually not realize how asinine that last line is?
Or do you just not care?
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
And isn't Bill James like 60 years old now?
This must make nodaclu, like, 134.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 3:47 PM PST up reply actions
Well I'm more than that and even I look at Fangraphs
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 4:23 PM PST up reply actions
You realize nothing you posted has ANYTHING at all to do with
well… whatever you’re talking about.
Just because someone is stats-minded doesn’t mean they don’t enjoy baseball. I mean really, that’s possibly one of the dumbest things I’ve ever seen implied here.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
+1,000,000
Which used to just be +100 when nodaclu was a kid
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 15, 2009 3:13 PM PST up reply actions
Sure
It’s positively fine if you want to not ever look at a single number to enjoy the game.
But no. You DO NOT get to say you enjoy the game more than us because you don’t look at numbers (which you may not have said but definitely implied). And expect people to argue with you when you use only eye judgment to value a player. Eyes can lie, numbers can’t. One can misuse numbers, but they don’t lie.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Unfortuantely, baseball is, was, always has been and always will be more about math and numbers and strategy
than some people care to admit.
Also, YOU CITED STATS! Why do people claim to not want to know stats, but go on and on about RBIs? WAR is kinda like RBIs, except, you know, useful at telling you who is good at baseball.
Here’s the thing, you can choose to ignore all the statistical stuff that scares you. That’s your right. But what you can’t do is come here and question a player’s value when you come out and say you have no interest in learning about how a player’s value is determined. It’s maddening and illogical and makes my brain asplode.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 15, 2009 3:46 PM PST up reply actions
I'm sorry for your older generation
Which feels some strange urge to constantly, bitterly try to convince us of how much worse everything supposedly is for us.
Because, guess what, I went to plenty of games as a child and rooted for my heroes too. And then I got older, no longer felt compelled to pour hero-worship on guys my age or younger, and instead took joy in properly assessing their value and chances at making the team I like better at baseball.
I’ll always keep my baseball card collection. But that and a sad spat of nostalgia isn’t going to help me figure out if the A’s will ever be good again.
we in the losin baseball binness. and cousin, binness is a boomin.
by walk off bunt on Dec 15, 2009 4:09 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
The funny thing is that old people are just as critical of
baseball players as young ones
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 4:25 PM PST up reply actions
This part is not true:
It’s not some crazy voodoo magic, you can calculate it pretty easily if you want to, but it’s not necessary.
When I was trying to better understand WAR, I went through the process of trying to reconstruct FanGraph’s numbers, and it’s essentially impossible for the layman. Even just comprehending the formula is a workout.
First you’ve got to come up with wOBA. That means you need to know the linear weight values for each of the hitting results, which are derived from an analysis of a large body of games, which FanGraphs recalibrates from time to time. (Or at least I assume they do; if they don’t, they should.) Then to convert wOBA to run values, you calculate the difference between that and league average wOBA and multiply that plate appearances, and also by the conversion factor for wOBA to runs, which is again based on analysis of the whole league. To convert the runs to wins, you multiply by yet another factor, and if you’re matching FanGraphs, this is also where you adjust it for the player’s home park, which is yet another factor that is based on comprehensive analysis of every park.
Next you’ve got to figure defensive value. FanGraphs uses UZR. I’m not even going to go into how UZR is calculated, but suffice it to say that it is not a simple formula, and many of its factors are weighted against various league averages. You now convert UZR into runs and wins, by a similar process of weighting against league averages.
Now that you’ve got your player’s win values, you have to adjust for his position, and the positional adjustments are again derived from analysis of the league as a whole. To determine a player’s win value over replacement player, you need to establish a benchmark for what a replacement player’s value is. This is probably the least analytical piece of the formula. FanGraphs makes a solid argument for how it establishing replacement levels, but ultimately they are modeling based on their judgment of what a “freely available” player can produce.
You now have your WAR. Converting that to dollars involves other issues, but that’s not what you quoted, so I’ll skip that this time.
Of course you could short-cut most of the work by simply trusting FanGraphs on all of the various weighting factors. FanGraphs tells you that a HR is worth 1.70 runs, a 3B is worth 1.37 runs, a 2B is worth 1.08 runs, and a single is worth 0.77 runs. Hey, that’s easy, I can multiply by those simple factors. And likewise for the many other factors required along the way. But where do those factors come from? You’re not deriving them, you’re just trusting FanGraphs; and if you’re going to trust FanGraphs, why not save yourself the trouble and just trust them on the final number, too?
But then you aren’t deriving it yourself, are you?
I am neither stupid nor lazy, and I am more comfortable than most people in crunching numbers, and yet when I made a good-faith and determined effort to calculate WAR numbers myself, I found it beyond my ability. Indeed, I find that even to fully comprehend all of the calculations is a pretty difficult exercise. I would warrant that at least 95% of the fans who make use of WAR values are taking at least some of it on faith.
I’m not saying this is wrong. FanGraphs is very open with its methodology, and critical review within the community ensures that improvements are made wherever they are possible, resulting in an excellent system. I do not intend any of this discussion to mean that one shouldn’t trust FanGraphs.
But for you to say of WAR that “you can calculate it pretty easily” is dishonest. You cannot.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
by iglew on Dec 16, 2009 12:23 AM PST up reply actions 4 recs
+1
Where did you find those numbers for the number of runs for 1b, 2b, 3b, HR? Somewhere deep in the annals of FG? Are they the same as those in the Book?
As a fellow number cruncher, I’ve found it difficult to recalculate WAR for a study on the projection systems as well as my series that seems to be indefinitely on hold. And I’m a stat major! I figure eventually I’m going to need to learn Retrosheet for any kind of meta-analysis.
There’s simply a ton out there to learn in sabermetrics and it would take a conscious effort to read the necessary work done in The Book, Beyond the Boxscore, The Book Blog, Sabermetric Research, THT, FanGraphs, and so on. I’ve gone through a bunch of work to say that I’m reasonably well versed in sabermetrics, but I still have a ton to read and catch up on. All while going through school. If I got a job in the field I figure I could be able to do my own research in about a month or two. But who has that kind of time?
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
Yes, deep in the annals
From any FanGraphs page, click the “Glossary” tab at the top. At the bottom of the glossary page is links to the 14-part series explaining WAR (seven each for hitters and fielders). This series is, in my opinion, required reading for anyone who wants to understand WAR. On one of the hitting pages it brings in wOBA and there’s a link to yet another story about wOBA, and that’s where you’ll find the linear weights. (Not sure if they’re current.)
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
great post
I dont agree with their defensive metrics or their OMGZ THIS IS HOW MUCH MONEYZ THIS GUY IS WORTH!!!11 crap at all, but I do like the Wins Above Replacement stat.
Funny thing is all these anti-stats guys will always go to the old school numbers, BA/RBI/W-L type crap that is utterly illogical and downright irrelevant to judge a player on. WAR is actually an easier and cleaner way to judge how good a player is. Baseball stats have for years, not made any sense in terms of judging a players performance, people like Bill James saw this and did something about it and now you have to read about “wah wah I dont like to change even if it makes entirely more sense to do so!” from crybaby old people who are stuck in their ways and probably still write personal checks at the supermarket and refuse to use an ATM.
The advantage of BA/RBI/W-L type crap
is that when you quote it you actually know what it is. Even secondary statistics like OBP, OPS, etc, are very easily comprehended. When I say a guy has .350 OBP I can feel comfortable knowing that he really did get on base 35 times out of 100, and the extent to which I have to defer to higher authority is trivial.
If I’m a regular fan and I say that a guy is 2.5 wins above replacement, yes, I understand what it means, but I don’t know how it was calculated. It’s like FanGraphs is a black box that just spits out a number. If I choose to use it, it’s because I have enough confidence in FanGraphs to trust their results.
This is not qualitatively different from having confidence in a TV commentator like Joe Morgan and trusting what he says. Yes, the confidence may be misplaced, but the nature of the analysis is the same: deference to trusted authority.
I’m well on my way to becoming a crybaby old person, by the way. I do like email and ATMs, but I won’t do Facebook or electronic statements, and I dislike cell phones.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
This is nothing you can't do with an excel spreadsheet.
and a few minutes of google searching.
If you don’t trust the values, come up with new ones and publish it. If you disagree with UZR, come up with a new defensive metric. You’re making this entirely too complicated.
The thing is, it doesn’t really make a huge difference what actual run value you place on a 2b vs a HR, or a walk vs a single. What matters is that when you are using WAR (or any other metric at all) and comparing players, you are using the SAME run values.
If one were to cite Ryan Sweeney’s fangraphs WAR of 4.1 last year, and then compare him to, I dunno, Michael Cuddyer or something but use their own version of WAR that says a single is worth 1.3 runs instead of 0.77 runs, that would dishonest.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Well, the values DO matter
I understand the idea that as long as you’re consistently wrong, you can be sorta right. But say someone goes “ok, a double is worth 15 runs!” Yeah, that’s a silly, extreme example, but if they make one of the numbers so out of whack, it’s going to artificially inflate the value of doubles hitters (I’m not sure the formula even works with a number like that).
It is important that the numbers are right, and much of the math gets too complicated for me, too, so I trust FanGraphs. But I also understand the concepts well enough to trust them. I don’t need to be able to do the calculations quickly and easily.
I wonder if the people who fear stats like WAR also fear things like space exploration, because that’s some pretty complicated math, too.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 16, 2009 12:03 PM PST up reply actions
I don't fear space exploration
though I do think it’s stupid.
No, I take that back. Gathering data is great. Putting up communications satellites is great. Sending people out in space to satisfy some sci-fi fantasy of colonizing other planets some day is stupid.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Well, I really wasn't referring to you
Because you’re not dismissing all things math out of hand. You’re not saying those things are wrong, just that you understand the aversion to them.
My point was just that many of the people who resist advanced statistical analysis in baseball seem totally comfortable with hard math stuff being used in other areas of life. Is it just that baseball is supposed to be fun and math isn’t? I’m twice, three times, maybe ten times more of a baseball nut since I discovered this whole new world of study than I was when I would just watch games and hope my favorite player batted .300.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 16, 2009 4:25 PM PST up reply actions
That's just because we hardly ever have .300 hitters :(
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
This is simply not true.
I am well versed in Excel and I use it frequently in my day job. It is a fact that I spent more than “a few minutes” searching, and I still couldn’t do it.
Also, you’re completely missing the point about deriving all the weight factors.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
OZMG Its soooooooo hard
really? come on. I heard about war like three years ago on AN spent like an hour reading excerpts from the Book and Fangraphs 14 part series and can do pretty much all the calculations except for the UZR component because I don’t have access to anything more than the end result. I can however use other means for evaluating the defense of players, like the Fans scouting report.
To believe in WAR there are two basic components that you have to believe in order for this to make sense. 1 Tom Tango’s studies on the positional adjustments are accurate. If you really want to you could run the regressions yourself if you have the data and the time to check his findings. I don’t but others have. 2. Tom Tango didn’t screw up the runs expectancy matrix leads to appropriate linear weighting. If you really want you could check the play by play data. I don’t but others have.
Basically If youre at all interested in it and spend a little time reading you too can be one of those crazy sabermetrics kids that ruin baseball, I know I went from being a traditionalist to one. YOU CAN TOO!!!111one111
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 17, 2009 12:56 AM PST up reply actions
You're missing Iglew's point
I read Fangraphs’ entire series. I’ve read most of the Book. I’d say I’m reasonably well-versed in sabermetrics. I can’t get the exact numbers for wOBA from basic stats, much less park adjusted Batting Runs. I can’t even get their positional adjustments exactly!
Of course I can get reasonably close on everything and maybe that’s the point you’re making.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
But when you use a WAR statistic in a discussion
here, who are you talking to? Are you speaking only to others who have read the FanGraphs series — which is surely a minority of AN readers — or are you speaking to everyone?
Knowing how the stat is derived is germane to knowing how to draw conclusions from it.
For example, it is generally agreed that defensive stats are less accurate than offensive stats. That suggests that if a player has an unusually high or low UZR, his WAR is possibly less indicative of his value in the year being rated, or at least more likely to regress. So if there were a debate about trading Ryan Sweeney, one person might say “he had 4.1 WAR in 2009”, but another might say, “yes, but most of that was from UZR and I don’t think he can sustain it.”
For another example, most of us are aware that a pitcher’s WAR is based on FIP, which treats all balls put in play equally. There is good reason for that, but a side effect is that a pitcher with an unusually good or bad profile on batted balls may be underrated or overrated by WAR. So if one person cites WAR figures to compare one pitcher to another, someone else might counter it by showing unusually high FIP-tRA discrepancies in one or both of the pitchers.
Things like this depend on understanding how WAR is calculated, which you may but many others do not. Knowing what WAR does and doesn’t tell you is no less important than knowing that batting average underrates players who draw a lot of walks.
We’re pretty well acquainted on AN with the concept of small sample size, but there is another basic idea in statistics which I don’t hear much about around here, which tells us that the more variables you put into a model, the more weight you’re putting on your data and thus the weaker the conclusions you can draw from the model. WAR has a great many parts, and each of them is less than 100% robust.
This is why people sometimes acknowledge that WAR comparisons are more reliable between two players at the same position, or are more reliable between hitters than when comparing a hitter to a pitcher. It’s because some of the variables factor out in the like-to-like comparison. Similarly, that’s why using WAR stats to compare one player to another is more reliable than looking at one player’s WAR as an absolute measure of wins he provides or dollars he’s worth.
This is why the complexity of the model matters. It’s not about how many hours it takes me to read the methodology, and it’s not about whether I trust the integrity of Tom Tango and Mitchel Lichtman. It’s about having an informed idea of what conclusions can be drawn from the statistic.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
I write for the 10% of the AN population that either
A) has read the fangraphs piece or B) has a desire to learn about baseball in a similar way that I do.
I want to address the UZR part of your argument. Just because a UZR is unsustainable does not mean that he didn’t provide close to that value to a team, just like Adam Kennedy’s ridiculous hot streak was both unsustainable and moving forward, rather it means that moving forward without luck it is unlikely that a player would produce at that level in the future.
Yes I know that there is a lot that goes into WAR that can be changed around and that when you can eliminate assumptions, eg the positional difference, or the calibration of two different replacement levels for hitters and pitchers, that doesn’t mean it isn’t fundamentally sound.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 17, 2009 8:28 PM PST up reply actions
I think far, FAR more than 10% falls into one of those two categories
On AN, I’d say it’s closer to 75%.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 17, 2009 11:51 PM PST up reply actions
No way
I don’t think it reaches 75% even in stat-oriented threads, and in the general AN population it’s not even close to that.
DFA’s 10% sounds about right to me.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
In iglew's defense
Basically If youre at all interested in it and spend a little time reading you too can be one of those crazy sabermetrics kids that ruin baseball, I know I went from being a traditionalist to one. YOU CAN TOO!!!111one111
I don’t think he lives in his mom’s basement like you do, so he’s ineligible to be a sabermetric crazy by default.
OH SNAP! BURNND!
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Moved out Dec 1 Motherfucker!!!!!!!11 :-P
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 17, 2009 8:12 PM PST up reply actions
Good
I’m tired of sneaking around with her when you’re downstairs.
OMG DOUBLE BURN
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Um you are aware that my mom is a lesbian right?
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 18, 2009 9:23 PM PST up reply actions
You realize you aren't helping your cause if daddy was a turkey baster
The monster at the end of this blog.
He isn't... but he is an asshole
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 19, 2009 11:12 AM PST up reply actions
That his mom's a lesbian?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
That grover was a turkey baster
"[Sabean] said Kevin Pucetas maintains some value on the trade market, which they take as a positive sign that he’d be a productive option."
by CaliforniaJag on Dec 19, 2009 3:50 PM PST up reply actions
Yay!
In SF, I assume?
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Yeah im in Hayes Valley. Its amazing, best brunch neighborhood in the city
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 18, 2009 9:23 PM PST up reply actions
I like all of San Francisco except
the parts with lots of pedestrians, the parts where it’s hard to find a parking space, and the parts with hills.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
I don't like SF either.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
those are my favorite parts.
neither pedestrians nor parking are a problem if you aren’t driving, and the wiggle exists for the hills.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 20, 2009 12:56 AM PST up reply actions
It's true that SF is far more
palatable when you aren’t required to drive in it. Unfortunately, when I’m there I usually need my car.
When I can BART in and travel light, then it’s OK.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Not really
Only a genuinely desperate team would turn to him to DH, given the number of better options on the market.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
So what do you do with him?
Put him at 3rd, watch him die on March 25th, and waste another 11 million?
How does that give even the remotest of chance to help anyone?
`I firmly believe that in every game, at least one team should be required to wear a legitimate, major league uniform.' - Ken Korach - 8/4/06
the problem is that Chavvy no longer hits well enough to justify DHing him
The only way the team extracts any value from him whatsoever is if he returns to being at least league-average defensively at third base. That would make his offense – which I’d very, very optimistically put in the .700-.750 range if he could stay healthy, which he most likely can’t – tolerable.
He’s not suddenly going to walk back onto the field and OPS .850 after not seeing regular big-league pitching for years.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Dec 15, 2009 3:27 PM PST up reply actions
It's not about egos.
"Starbucks doesn’t change its logo just because it no longer serves naked mermaids in Fremont." —Librocrat
Sacramento will have a monster lineup in April-May
Maybe better than the one playing in Oakland.
Unless Carter and Taylor are Cahilled!
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 15, 2009 4:25 PM PST up reply actions
MLEs
2009 MLE OPSs
Wallace: .680
Taylor: .735
2010 CHONE:
Player AVG OBP SLG OPS Defense
Wallace .242 .298 .369 .667 -11
Taylor .281 .334 .471 .805 -2
There seems little question who has the better bat now and who is the better defensively. There does seem question who is the better bat long-term. Given that we don’t know, I’ll take the more certain. Therefore, I like the deal.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
I love this trade
Michael Taylor looks like a stud. Forgive me if someone already posted this (didn’t see it on my through the posts), but here’s a Bill Conlin column from Philly Daily News pleading with the Phils not to move him. I’m a sucker for 5-tool players, though. And I love that 18 assists in one year on the minors.
@worldblee on Twitter.
Well, he seems to have the hitting part down
Speed? No. Defense? Seems to be average at best. Don’t know about his throwing ability. But even if Wallace only covers the first two, he could still be a great player. We couldn’t have executed this trade if he wasn’t a highly rated player.
But the A’s have more players who are good at one or two things (Hi, I’m Jack Cust and I can hit HRs and get on base) while they perennially lack guys who are outstanding in all facets of the game. As vets, those guys are expensive. But as rookies, we can afford them if we can get ’em.
@worldblee on Twitter.
I prefer Sickels's Seven Skills formulation
He has hands, arm, contact, plate discipline and power, so five of the seven. He seriously lacks range and speed, though.
Taylor is potentially above average in all seven, which is formidable.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Wallace is definitely NOT a plus arm
He may be accurate, sure. But if watch the few available videos we have of him fielding, he has poor arm action. For lack of a better way of putting it – I’m at least going to avoid the mysogyny here – he kind of throws…like a little kid who wasn’t taught how to throw.
He may be accurate – which is undoubtedly valuable, sure – but I’d say you couldn’t list “throwing” as one of the assets in Wallace’s tool box.
He has four of Sickels’ seven tools. And the three he lacks are significant weaknesses.
If someone could post that video we have of Wallace throwing after making a nice grab in the Futures Game, I’d be grateful.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Dec 15, 2009 3:32 PM PST up reply actions
It's okay to say "throws like a girl"
There are actual physical differences between men’s and women’s arm actions… it’s not just a matter of teaching. Even the best-coached, Olympic-level softball infielders still have more “push” to their throws than is really optimal (though, of course, far less than a girl who’s never picked up a softball before).
I guess my assessment of Wallace was more in the velocity category (which seemed fine to me the few times I watched him) than accuracy, which might be hurt by a weird arm action.
O'Hara: Detective Lassiter is literally on fire.
Spencer: What kind of fire are we talking about-- "Michael Jackson in the Pepsi commercial" fire, or "misusing the word literally" fire?
Does he really have power though?
I mean he only hit 15 hrs and had a MLE Slug of .375 last year.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Dec 17, 2009 1:34 AM PST up reply actions