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Comparative Advantage: A Collaborative A's/Rays Solution

I've been paying close attention to trades for a few years now. And I have to say, rarely if ever have I seen a better match than the Rays and the A's right now. Each team has areas of significant strength and significant weakness. With the exception of outfielders, each team's strength happens to BE the other team's weakness. And both have a number of tradable assets unencumbered by bloated salaries or impending free agency. They really need to get together and make a deal, and I'm here to tell you have.

Warning: This is really long. I tend toward the verbose at the best of times, and the rambling at the worst. If you want the quick and dirty, skip down to the two bolded trade proposals at the bottom of the post.

Star-divide

Point The First: The Rays Have Too Many Infielders

 

Here are the triple-slash lines and WAR figures posted by the Rays' starting infielders in the 2009 season.

Jason Bartlett: .320/.389/.490; 4.8 WAR

Ben Zobrist: .297/.405/.543; 8.5 WAR

Evan Longoria: .281/.364/.526; 7.3 WAR

Carlos Pena: .227/.356/.537; 2.7 WAR

It's hard to argue that this was not the best infield in baseball in 2009. The Yankees were pretty good, but the Rays fielded the single-year equivalent of 2 Hall of Famers, another All-Star, and an average starter for a playoff team. That's insane. These men are not losing their jobs, regression to the mean be damned.

That said, the Rays also currently have three backups available:

Sean Rodriguez

Willy Aybar

Reid Brignac

Akinori Iwamura has already been dumped. I wasn't a fan of that trade at all-- they seem to have panicked and feared being stuck with him through the start of next season. I can't imagine how that could have happened-- he's basically an average starter signed to a contract that pays him like a backup or fringe starter. Someone would have absorbed it. But it's all water under the bridge now.

Rodriguez is a quality prospect acquired from the Angels in the Scott Kazmir trade. The A's seem to like him, and were rumored to be considering a swap which would have sent Michael Wuertz to the Angels for him, although like all trade rumors, it's unclear how much credence we should put in that. While he's struggled badly in his MLB time so far, he's posted solid walk rates throughout his career in the minors, posted the usual ridiculous power numbers for an Angels prospect (if chicks really do dig the longball, the Salt Lake Bees' home park must be quite the dating opportunity) and appears to be able to handle several infield positions competently.

Aybar is a backup/platoon infielder. He's poor against lefthanded pitching and average at defense at 2B and 3B, so he's not well suited to be a starter. He won't be discussed further here; I'm assuming he will be kept on the Rays bench as the sixth infielder.

Reid Brignac is another former top prospect, and like Rodriguez he's struggled in very limited MLB time. He's still young (2010 will represent his age 24 season), has shown decent pop in the minors (career minor league isolated power of .167; hit 24 home runs in 2006) and is viewed as having a strong glove by most scouts and by TotalZone. Unlike Rodriguez, however, he lacks patience at the plate.

As things stand, the Rays will almost certainly be forced to send one of Rodriguez and Brignac to the minors. This seems suboptimal, as one of them will probably be playing a role sooner rather than later and both are essentially big-league ready. Instead, Tampa should look to move one of their infielders to address other weak spots on the roster.

 

Point The Second: The Rays' Catching Situation, By And Large, Sucks

 

Let's start with the general and move to the specific here. The 2009 Rays offense was very strong overall-- indeed, it set a team record for runs scored. It was, however, marred by two severe weak points. One of those was center field, manned by former wunderkind B.J. Upton. This is not the time or place to attempt an explanation of his troubles; let's just say that given his age and defensive acumen, he's on a sufficiently long leash that the Rays are likely not looking to upgrade center field. The other black hole was at catcher.

Even by the rather feeble standards of catcher offense, the Rays were horrible. Their catchers put up a combined .233/.276/.349 line, good for an sOPS+ of 74 (indicating that they were 26/2=13% worse than an average team at that position). Rays catchers were good for all of 0.8 WAR on the season, or almost a win and a half below average. The primary culprit was also the primary starter, Dioner Navarro, who followed up an uncharacteristically good 2008 with a genuinely horrible season. In just less than three full seasons' worth of PA, he has racked up an offensive value of -45.9 runs by Fangraphs. This is not that terrible-- as mentioned, catchers are awful offensively and the positional value of 12.5 runs largely cancels it out. Still, expecting even league-average play out of Navarro next season seems very optimistic.

The gaggle of backup catchers in the system are even less awe-inspiring. Michel Hernandez served as the primary backup in 2009, but he's 30 years old and hasn't even lost his rookie status yet. As far as I can tell, he's been released. Gregg Zaun could still end up taking arbitration, though his option was declined; his numbers are actually quasi-respectable, but he's approximately 60 years old and clearly not a long-term solution. Shawn Riggans barely played in 2009 and was horrible when he did; his career MLB wOBA is .274, and while that's a small sample, he's turning 30 next year and there's little reason to expect improvement. John Jaso, the last real internal option, has great plate discipline but is dogged by persistent questions about his defensive abilities and suffered a major power outage in 2009. The fact that he wasn't even called up to the big leagues once in 2009 is an implied vote of no confidence from Rays brass.

There's little help available on the free agent market. Tampa can likely find some more Riggins types by dumpster-diving (hello, Eliezer Alfonso-- how's it hangin'?) but that's about all that's out there. Jason Varitek is probably the best MLB free agent catcher, which is amazing. There's nothing there; if they want a chance to improve, it'll be by trade.

Enter Oakland, which has a surplus of catching talent right now. The MLB job is safely in the hands of Kurt Suzuki, who rarely sits and racks up value through playing time and defense while being passable with the bat. The A's also have three additional catchers at or near the major-league level and under team control, however-- Landon Powell, Josh Donaldson and Anthony Recker. Powell has had a ton of health problems and while he'd be a pretty solid candidate for a starter's job without them, that's water under the bridge at this point. Recker profiles more like Jaso, with more power and less plate discipline. He's a solid candidate for a team's second or third catcher, but it's a stretch to see him starting for anyone other than a team desperate for a warm body not named Rod Barajas.

The key to the whole situation is Josh Donaldson, who has put up some weird numbers in the minors (especially a walk rate which has fluctuated from amazing to actually below average) but, overall, a very strong hitting line since being drafted in the first round in 2007. He's still young for a catcher, turning 24 in a few months, and while his defense is not fabulous (Pravda claims some improvement in his skills, but those articles have to be read as carefully as Livy to figure out the grains of truth in them), he should hit legitimately at the major league level, something that any team has to hope for out of their catcher spot.

Donaldson would instantly become the best catcher in the Rays' system not named Navarro. In the best case scenario, in which Navarro hits like 2008 and a re-signed Zaun miraculously holds off demon Age for another season, he polishes his skills in AAA prior to a September callup. In the worst case scenario, Zaun falls apart, Navarro hits like it's... well, not 2008, and Donaldson is starting in the bigs by June. Navarro is nontendered that offseason and Donaldson takes the reins for the foreseeable future.

 

Point the Third: Oakland Lives, Breathes and Excretes Bullpen Pitchers

 

Here's something like what the current depth chart for Oakland's bullpen looks like.

RHP:

Andrew Bailey

Michael Wuertz

Brad Ziegler

Joey Devine

John Meloan

Jeff Gray

Santiago Casilla

Henry Rodriguez

Sam Demel

LHP:

Craig Breslow

Brad Kilby

Jerry Blevins

Dana Eveland

For the most part, this excludes starting pitchers. Eveland could theoretically get a starting job, but it's hard to see how at this point.

In any event, this is insane. There are 13 guys at Oakland or Sacramento who could be average or better relief pitchers. This is despite the subtraction of two significant prospects, Daniel Thomas and Andrew Carignan, to shoulder issues; despite the subtraction of 2008 mainstay Andrew Brown to the same (Tangent: anyone heard any news on whether he's managed to make a recovery? I loved that guy... he was such an odd character...); and not counting several intriguing pitchers lower down in the system like Mickey Storey and Paul Smyth.

[Tangent: Notice the origins of these guys? Santiago Casilla and Henry Rodriguez were signed as low-profile international free agents. Eveland was a peripheral piece of a major trade. Wuertz was acquired for two organizational players. Blevins was acquired for half a season of Jason Kendall. Devine was picked up for one season of Mark Kotsay. Meloan and Breslow were acquired for bupkis-- they were waiver claims. Brad Ziegler was signed as a minor league free agent. Then there are the draftees: Demel (3rd round), Bailey (6th round), Kilby (29th round), and Jeff Gray (32nd round).

The sum total of the resources the A's spent on this incredible collection of bullpen talent was four mid-to-late round picks, two C- prospects, and the corpses of two formerly good major leaguers. This is an object lesson in why it is never, ever, ever acceptable to expend a first-round draft pick on a relief pitcher. Ever. Or sign a Type A free agent relief pitcher.]

[Tangent to the tangent: What would happen if teams actually took this to heart? Type A relievers would virtually be forced to take arbitration if a team offered it-- indeed, that may already be the case in practice for anyone but the creme de la creme. It certainly presents an odd scenario. I'll be watching that situation with alert interest this offseason.]

Bottom line: The A's can afford to part with 3 or 4 of these pitchers without any real hesitation. That still leaves more than enough depth to withstand injuries. The team will probably trawl the minor league free agent list again this offseason to find one or two more guys worthy of a shot, and if a major crisis hits they might be turned to. Otherwise, even a denuded bullpen will be sufficient.

The Rays do not enjoy the same situation. Or, really, anything close to it. For whatever reason, their otherwise crack GM team has not succeeded in consistently putting together a good bullpen. It was briefly decent in 2008, but that was on the back of journeyman Grant Balfour, whose season that year now looks like an all-time fluke. He's still under team control in 2009, but might not even be tendered a contract. The only genuinely good reliever the Rays have at the major league level is J.P. Howell. Dan Wheeler has a spot because he's a sunk cost, but it confounds me that a team with the Rays' financial limitations gave a $10M contract to a mediocre relief pitcher. Randy Choate is decent and probably fills the second lefty spot.

Is there any help in Durham? The Bulls were an excellent minor league team this season, losing the AAA championship game to the Memphis Redbirds (who unseated the RiverCats from the PCL throne in a three-game sweep). Not much there, though. Winston Abreu had a great season, but he's 32 and hasn't stuck in the bigs in three tries despite consistently shredding AAA lineups. Like most of the Rays bullpen, he's incredibly prone to the gopherball.

As a result, the Rays need at least one and probably two good right-handed relief pitchers if they intend to compete in 2010 (as they should). They have two choices. One is to convert one of their excellent starting pitching prospects to the bullpen. The other is to make a trade.

Here's the thing, though-- starters are worth more than relievers. Way more. Converting starting pitching prospects to the pen is a wasteful process. The Rays can obtain surplus value by dealing one of those starters to a team with a surplus of good relief pitchers-- and coincidentally enough (OK, not coincidentally at all) the A's are exactly such a team. The A's need to concentrate value. The Rays actually need to spread it out, or at least move it from one part of the roster to the other. We've got a tailor-made trade situation here.

Point the Fourth: Putting the Pieces Together

 

Warning: The following requires large amounts of half-assed guesswork and projection based on minimal data samples. If this offends you, please stop reading, or at least skip to the end so you can tell me how obviously unfair this trade is to the [A's/Rays].

Donaldson

Let's take Josh Donaldson first, as he's the one guy we know is moving. The MLE for his performance this year was a line of .209/.291/.324. That looks really terrible, but it's deceptive. One wouldn't expect a 23-year-old to particularly dominate the minors. Also, it's based on a BABIP of .249, which seems comically low even for a catcher. It should be reasonable to predict improvement from that mark over the next few seasons.

The MLE line would be in the neighborhood of 20 runs below average over 120 games' worth of play. Over the same period he would accrue about 23 runs in positional value and playing-time value. That would make him worth about 0.3 WAR this season. He's a bit of an iffy defender, though, so let's call him exactly replacement level this season.

I'm going to project steady improvement over the next three seasons, though. Partly because it's easy and partly because it represents the center of a probability distribution ranging from "no improvement at all" to "breakout to star-level offense." Let's assume he picks up about 6 runs a season per year for the next three years, and that he plays only half a season next year (60 games). Let's also assume he starts declining in his age 30 season at half the rate that he ascended at. His value then looks like this:

0.3+1.2+1.8+1.8+1.8+1.8+1.5=10.2 WAR

Rodriguez

Sean Rodriguez had a rather excellent season in AAA this year, posting an MLE line of .236/.325/.452. He has also, however, struggled terribly in the majors so far in his young career. It's nothing that can't be overcome (a mere 216 plate appearances) but in those PAs he's put up the ugly line of .203/.276/.333, coincidentally rather similar to Donaldson's MLE from this year. That being said, it has to be leavened with the AAA numbers. Right now, if Rodriguez were to step into a lineup and play everyday, I'd peg him for around a .700 OPS. While he's slightly older than Donaldson, he should also improve steadily over the next few seasons. His bat probably has a bit more upside in it, so I'll call his improvement 8 runs a season until his age 26 season.

We have only tiny samples of major league play to go on when it comes to defense for Rodriguez. Some TotalZone has tended to characterize him as about an average infielder in the minors, oddly varying not a jot from position to position. Let's call him an average second baseman, as that weighs his apparent decency at shortstop against the fact that average in AAA is probably below average in the majors. What value does all of this give us?

Right now, he would be roughly 10 runs below average with the stick, with a +2.5 position/defense adjustment and 20-ish replacement runs for a WAR of about 1.3. Measuring that out (I won't bother declining him at age 30, as infielders tend to last longer than catchers):

1.3+2.1+2.9+2.9+2.9+2.9=15 WAR

Hm. Pretty valuable. More so than Donaldson. If he's the return piece, we'll need the other half of the trade to make up some ground.

Brignac

You can really see the difference in MLEs between the International League and the Texas League here, as Brignac comes in ahead of Donaldson in MLE (.245/.281/.354) despite posting a significantly worse in-season hitting line. Disappointingly, however, his line has basically stagnated since he was 20. This stagnation has been matched with a stagnation in his prospect stock, as he's failed to improve while other top prospects have passed him by. I'm a bit surprised to see he only received a grade of C+ from John Sickels last season.

What can we project from him moving forward? He doesn't have fantastic hitting skills; his plate discipline leaves a lot to be desired and his power production has, like the rest of his offensive game, seemingly stalled. Right now, he would hit at about 20 runs below average. I'm going to project an improvement of 3 runs a season to age 27.

On defense, it's a different story. TotalZone pretty much thinks he's the bee's vertebrae, if not quite knees-- he scored poorly this year but very well in every prior year. I'm fairly comfortable penciling him in as an above-average MLB shortstop. Let's say 2.5 RAA so that it plus the positional adjustment makes him 10 RAA as a fielder. Add in 20 replacement runs, and right now he'd be worth about 1 WAR. Again, I'm going to project a half-season from him next year and then six years beyond that.

0.5+1.3+1.6+1.9+1.9+1.9+1.9=11 WAR

Seemingly a little better than Donaldson, but in the ballpark where a swap of the two is likely to benefit both teams.

Relievers

Thankfully, we don't have to get into the heavy-duty (and heavy-handed) guesswork here. Most of these guys have actual track records.

The Elite

Bailey: Nasty 2.56 FIP this season led him to accumulate 2.4 WAR. Assuming some regression to the mean, he's probably good for at least 1.5 for the next 5 seasons. Of course, he's a pitcher, so we'd better mark in some discount for injury risk (especially since he already has one round of Tommy John on his CV). Call it 1.2, then, implying that he's worth about 6 WAR overall.

Wuertz: Even nastier 2.37 FIP this season, though he's not been as good in prior years. Probably about as good as Bailey going forward, since the personal "mean" that he's regressing to looks a lot like the league mean that Bailey is regressing to, but he's only under contract for 2 more (relatively expensive) seasons. Worth about 2.4 WAR, but they're less efficient than the other prospects'.

The Very Good

Ziegler: FIP doesn't really do Brad Ziegler enough credit because of his insanely high ground ball rate. His home run rate is tiny, of course, but they also get him out of a lot of jams through double plays. In his first two seasons, one a partial year, he's assembled 2.1 WAR. After we discount for injury risk (which might be lower for submariners but-- as Pat Neshek could tell you-- doesn't disappear), he looks to be worth about .9 WAR a season to me, or 4.5 over 5 years.

Joey Devine: His 2008 FIP was sick (under 2) but somewhat based on not actually allowing ANY homers on 44 flyballs. This is not likely to continue. He also had some crappy performances in prior years (albeit in very small samples). Health is clearly an issue for him seeing as how he missed the whole 2009 season with Tommy John. I'm going to assume he misses the first 2 months of next year rehabbing, and discount him by 50% to account for injuries. That pegs him at about 0.7 WAR a season after next year and about 0.5 WAR next year, for a total of 3.3 over 5 years.

Jerry Blevins: He was squeezed out of the bullpen in a numbers game this year, but the man knows how to pitch. Only three lefthanded relievers with at least 20 IP bettered his 3.01 FIP in 2009, and that number was assembled without the benefit of a ridiculous home run rate. He's somewhat flyball prone, so he's unlikely to be truly elite, but he's amassed 0.9 WAR in about a year's worth of IP, and he's pretty durable. Regressing that somewhat, but accounting for the fact that he still has 6 years of control (I think), he should be worth around 4 WAR.

The OK

Craig Breslow: Something of a revelation this year, as he pitched competently for the A's after a waiver claim. Amazingly, this is his fifth organization in five years. He's been averaging about 0.6 WAR per season (roughly a league-average reliever), but he's no spring chicken and will probably decline somewhat over the 4 years remaining before he would become a free agent. Overall probably worth around 1.5 WAR.

Dana Eveland: Had a horrible season as a starter this year, but his fringy control and decent lefty stuff might play a bit better in a bullpen role. His career FIP of 4.36 would probably drop some, to more like 4-- still not great, but good enough to make him an option as a second lefty. Four seasons of Eveland at 0.4 WAR a pop put his value at about 1.6 WAR total.

The Mediocre

Santiago Casilla: In six partial seasons, Casilla has only managed to amass 0.4 WAR total. He may or may not be better than Jesse Chavez, since at least he's in positive territory, but he never really seemed to recover from an elbow sprain in May 2008, as his control seemingly vanished after the injury. He's now up for arbitration and will probably be nontendered. Might be useful as a throw-in in our trade, though, so let's credit him with 0.3 WAR value (0.1 a season).

The Prospects

Jeff Gray: His numbers make him look like a control specialist, but he does throw fairly hard. He's been a bit longball-prone in his career, which would make him fit right in on the Rays' staff (... sorry). Does get ground balls, though, if not quite at the rate of college chum Ziegler (interestingly, the other future MLB player on their team at the time was, of all people, Ryan Howard). He hasn't dominated the minors, so expecting him to be more than an average reliever is probably excessively optimistic. Discounting for injury risk, he's probably worth about 2.5 WAR total.

Brad Kilby: If you haven't watched his pitching motion, check it out. It's a trip. He literally hides the ball behind his left butt-cheek until he's halfway through his delivery. This apparently works like a charm, because he struck out 97 batters in 80 1/3 innings this season. Unlike Gray, Kilby HAS dominated the minors, and while his fastball isn't shooting off sparks as it approaches the plate, he's got good velocity on it for a lefty reliever. This year he was on pace to be worth about 1.6 WAR. Discounting that as usual, but keeping in mind his stellar track record and sturdy build, he seems like a 1 WAR a year kind of guy, and that's worth a total of 5.5 or so over 6 seasons, discounting a bit for decline at the end.

Henry Rodriguez: There probably isn't a pitcher with a more unhittable fastball in all of prospect-dom. Unfortunately, the strategy to beat Henry Rodriguez does not involve swinging at said fastball. He walked 41 batters in 52 1/3 innings this season. He has also, for whatever reason, consistently posted BABIPs against that range from bad to baffling. If Barry Zito is one end of the BABIP-as-skill spectrum, so far it looks like Rodriguez is at the extreme other end. Trying to project him as a reliever is basically hopeless, so I'm going to give up and pretend that he's 2009 Carlos Marmol, who posted a WAR of 0.6 despite being very lucky on home run balls. I'll credit Rodriguez with 0.3 WAR a season, or a total of 1.8 over six years.

John Meloan: Hm, seems he was already in Tampa's system earlier this year. Whoops-a-daisy. He seemed to finally put it together late this season after yo-yoing around half the parks in AAA. Trying to make head or tail out of a statline which has seen him play in 14 different parks in 4 seasons is not easy, but he looks sort of averagey, maybe a bit worse. I'm calling him the same as Rodriguez, albeit for different reasons. Another 1.8 WAR player.

Sam Demel: The wildest card of all, as he's never played in the majors. He's consistently maintained about a strikeout an inning in the minors, though, and while his control isn't all that great, it comes with a power sinker which gets a ton of ground balls (55.4% for his career) and two offspeed pitches. He looks a lot like a young Jason Grimsley, who varied from good to awful at times in his major league career, but was if nothing else always interesting to watch. (As far as I know, Demel doesn't have the roid rage. But he's pretty comparable otherwise.) Projecting his skill is pure guesswork, but I think he'll put up 3 WAR or so in his period of team control. Your mileage may vary.

Let's map out some potential trades, then.

Donaldson should mostly cover the value of Brignac, if the A's want him. If they prefer Sean Rodriguez, we're looking at dealing one of the high-value relievers along with him. Donaldson plus Devine gets most of the way there, but the Rays will probably be looking for more. Throwing in Jeff Gray would make the values very close to even and seems like an excellent trade for both teams. Brignac is undoubtedly capable of handling any infield position well enough, and even if there's an adjustment period, Aybar is also available to cover the corner spots. Meanwhile, the Rays turn the surplus from the Kazmir deal into one reliever who is elite if healthy, another who seems to be pretty decent, and the catcher of the future.

Trade Proposal One: Donaldson, Devine and Gray for Sean Rodriguez

Now, what about if the Rays really want to keep Rodriguez? Donaldson for Brignac is a fairly even swap, but the Rays clearly can take advantage of Oakland's pitching depth. What else have they got in return? Well, as I mentioned, they've got a bunch of starting pitching prospects lurking around. Nick Barnese, Adam Moore, and Jake McGee are intriguing. 

Barnese has suffered some injury problems but overall did well in Low-A ball this season. His strikeout rate was down a little, but he has quality stuff and projectability on his side, along with youth.

Matt Moore is a bit better than Barnese from the statistical side of things, except that he's had command issues at times. His strikeout rate is disgusting (and constant-- basically about 12.8 per 9 innings throughout his pro career). He did a better job than Barnese of staying healthy this season.

Jake McGee is a bit older and would be closer to the majors, except that he had Tommy John surgery in mid-2009 and only just got back into the swing of things late this year. He played some rookie ball this year and predictably blew it away, but struggled some in High-A ball. A lot of that was bad BABIP, but it does raise some concern over whether he's really 100%.

I think McGee is the right choice here. Moore and Barnese are a few years away, and by that time, the Rays may need reinforcements for their rotation. Right now, those concerns are nonexistent. Price/Shields/Garza/Davis/Niemann is as good a group as any in the game.

So the question then becomes how much reliever value is needed to cancel out the starter value of McGee. He has high flameout potential (there's probably a 50% or greater chance he never starts a game in the majors) but also high upside. There's no question but that the Rays will want two guys back, and they need righties more than lefties at this point.

The Devine/Gray package again looks fairly attractive here, or the Rays might prefer Ziegler. Their need for right-handed relief that can get righties out is acute, and few are better than Ziegler at that task. They'd probably want a prospect included with him, and it makes sense for the A's to give them one. Again Rodriguez seems to make a lot of sense, but if they're not interested in dealing with his issues, Gray probably offers similar value in a different sort of package.

Thus, we have

Trade Proposal #2: Josh Donaldson, Brad Ziegler, and Henry Rodriguez for Reid Brignac and Jake McGee.

You must be champing at the bit right now, either to tell me how awful my logic is, or how you wish this trade would happen but it never will, or something. Fire away. I've invited DRaysBay over to participate in what I hope will be a collaborative process, so be nice to them.

Have at ye. I'll check back in in the morning to see what's the haps.

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I can't finish reading the entire thing right now,

but this is epic. Great work. This community really is fortunate to have you, Paul.

Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM

by travdog6 on Nov 10, 2009 12:23 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Excellent work, Paul.

I look forward to seeing what the Rays fans think of the idea.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 10, 2009 12:23 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Your green square reminds me of one thing.

"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 12, 2009 8:41 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If that rumored Wuertz for Rodriguez deal was true....

It looks a lot easier to handle than your currently proposed one. Maybe I’m just a bigger fan of Devine than you.

I’ve never been a huge fan of Brignac, but that’s preference. McGee would be nice to have. So I’m pretty sure I’d do the second one.

Overall, a lot of these deals are personal preferences but pretty right on in value. I probably would do either but would much rather do the second than the first.

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Nov 10, 2009 12:25 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I agree, but had that deal been offered by anyone other than the Angels,

I have no doubt whatsoever that the A’s would have taken it. The only impediment there is the fact that Wuertz suddenly joins a division rival for two extra years, and surely the A’s hope to contend by 2011.

So: I can imagine that the deal wasn’t on the table; I can imagine that if it was, the A’s rejected it because it involved a division rival; but it would be a no-brainer if offered by a non-rival, and I’m trying to avoid no-brainers because the Rays won’t be interested in those.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 12:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Eh, wouldn't that not be the smartest decision

by worrying about trading an RP to a division rival. Except for the truly exceptional season, most relievers at best are worth, what, 1ish WAR? Hardly an A’s killer if it’s going to net us an important piece of the puzzle. But then again, I’ll be honest, I do not pretend to think I’d even be a remotely good GM. Though I could maybe get to a Sabean level.

"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 10, 2009 6:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

One more question

Are you seeing Rodriguez/Brignac filling in at SS or 3b? You mention Brignac’s defensive prowess and credit Rodriguez with a 2.5 positional adjustment. Is this to mean you see Brignac at SS and Rodriguez at 3b?

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Nov 10, 2009 12:40 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Yes

I would basically expect to see Rodriguez slotted in at third, whereas Brignac would compete with Pennington for the SS job with the loser moving into the utility role or, less likely, back to AAA.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 12:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I just dont see it happening.......

Donaldson is far too valuable a prospect to deal away at this point when he is undervalued, and the A’s have all the infield prospects they need. I would understand the want for a proven veteran, but not more prospects when the A’s have so many already waiting their turn. Carter, Wallace, Weeks, Green and Cardenas will all arrive at some point in 2010 or 2011.

Let the Kids play Billy!! No More Rent-a-Vet in Oakland!!

by s0sNe@kYbUtY? on Nov 10, 2009 2:01 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Donaldson

Yes, he is a valuable prospect. He’s also one who is less useful to us than he would be to another team. That’s why it makes sense to convert that valuable prospect into something more in line with our needs.

I don’t see where you get he’s undervalued. Undervalued by whom?

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 10, 2009 3:09 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

and if he sucks next season...we've really shot ourselves in the foot.

"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 10, 2009 6:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

One could say the same thing about McGee and Brignac

Both of whom have been/are very highly regarded. I’d say both are more highly regarded than Donaldson. All three have questions – McGee with the injury, Brignac with the bat, Donaldson with the position (if he has to move he becomes significantly less valuable). And we can’t ignore the Baseball America effect, and in this case it’s that McGee and Brignac have been talked up as top prospects, whereas when they talk about Donaldson it’s mostly questions. McGee in particular was pretty awesome before he was hurt and the return rate from TJ surgery is pretty good these days. In fact I don’t think McGee is going anywhere regardless. They’re going to want and see if he comes back.

by jdr on Nov 10, 2009 10:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Billy likes to make a BIG SPLASH.......

and if he choses to make a big time trade it will be for what the organization is lacking, POWER. Specifically, power from the SS and the Corner OF positions. The A’s have good power projections at the corner infield positions with Wallace and Carter, and at 2B with Cardenas. The only infield spot w/o good power projection at the prospect level is SS. Green and Ladendorf are still question marks in that area.

As a result, I could see Billy revisiting a trade rumor from the deadline, and going after the Braves SS Escobar. Hes a real game changer, is under control for 4 more seasons at inexpensive (relatively) rates, and the Braves are reportedly unhappy with him.

The A’s have OK power projections among corner OF prospects Desme, and Brown, but they are a ways away, so I could see Billy perusing a trade for another big bat in the OF, but more likely would be a FA acquisition as a trade for power in the OF would be very costly prospect wise.

Let the Kids play Billy!! No More Rent-a-Vet in Oakland!!

by s0sNe@kYbUtY? on Nov 10, 2009 2:13 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Cardenas's power projection isn't particularly huge

Probably in the 30 doubles, 10-15 HRs range. Which is fine if you’re hitting .300 and OBPing .380, as he seems to have the ability to do, but he’s not the next Chase Utley or something.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 1:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Also

If Desme and Brown don’t prove themselves at the higher levels in 2010, then they will no longer be good prospects in 2011. I don’t see them being “a ways a way.” They have a lot to prove, yes, but each of their major league starts should be right behind Wallace, Carter, and Cardenas if they do, in fact, hit and keep the K’s in check in 2010. Next year is their “do-or-die” year.

by drink on Nov 10, 2009 1:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

isn't a power hitting SS almost an oxymoron?

Except for the occasional steroid suspected Tejada years, A Rod years, or the occasional fluke. If there is a power hitting SS to be had, he either costs too much, or supremely sucks at something else.

"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 10, 2009 6:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hanley Ramirez...

…and Jhonny Peralta — who is both sort of a power hitter and sort of a SS.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 10, 2009 6:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

haha

ya I was thinking Hanley too…but for some reason my work addled brain kept wanting to say Horatio Ramirez…and so he was consequently left off the list. And well, Jhonny Peralta…meh.

"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 10, 2009 6:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Horacio Ramirez turns every OPPOSING hitter into Hanley Ramirez...

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 8:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Problem solved.

Buy a Horatio Ramirez for every opposing team!

"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 11, 2009 4:46 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd trade Donaldson for Brignac in an instant. It would make my day.

He’s superfluous and not particularly good at anything.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2009 2:19 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Superfluous and not particularly good at anything

Did my graduation report leak onto the internet?

by bobnothing on Nov 10, 2009 10:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Take that back!

Josh Donaldson is better than you think.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 10:00 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I certainly hope so.

Because I he’s a poor man’s Mitch Meluskey

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 10:18 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If I'm the Rays I wouldn't want anyone other than Wuertz or Bailey as the main piece

for the pen, and I wouldn’t want anyone from the A’s as a catching prospect other than maybe as a throw-in. I’d trade Rodriguez for Wuertz, but I don’t see the A’s wanting to do that. I could maybe see Rodriguez and Brignac for Wuertz and Donaldson.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2009 2:32 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Here's the reason why I shied away from Wuertz:

He makes money.

I think they’d prefer Joey Devine, who is cheaper and (if healthy) probably about as good, to Wuertz, given their current salary crunch.

Your suggested trade is just not fair to the Rays at all. They’re not giving away BOTH their future infielders. One of them will be kept so that they can have leverage to entertain trades for Jason Bartlett after the 2010 season.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 1:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

They should be entertaining trades for him now, IMO.

He is /not/ an .860 OPS shortstop for real.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 10, 2009 1:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

OK, but everyone who isn't an imbecile knows that

There are a few imbecile GMs, to be sure, but two of the noted imbeciles (Dayton Moore and Omar Minaya) already have shortstops occupying their rosters.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 1:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

More to the point, the Giants have nothing that could land him

They have two very good prospects and then a pile of poop after that.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 2:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

them'd be some scrappy babies!

“In the 2030 draft, the Las Vegas San Jose Fremont A’s of Oakland select Faaron Lewand, Super Utility Man”

"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 10, 2009 6:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There's a kid who couldn't catch a bus

But would run into the side of it, perhaps

by bobnothing on Nov 10, 2009 6:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

royals and jays

other teams looking for catching help
though donaldson maybe in the same situation as arencibia a yr or so away.
A player that may or may not be available: 3b alex gordon who I’d give up multiple pieces for.
I’m not sure how much the A’s value sean rodriguez, but to trade 3 useful pieces (i’d for sure want to know if he could stay at SS or 3b) otherwise its another IF w/ defensive issues.

by Asfan4ever723 on Nov 10, 2009 6:56 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I can't see the Jays trading away prospects for anyone, at the moment

They have a new GM, with a ‘commitment to long term building’, or somesuch. Plus, their farm system is pretty poor, right now.

So it’d have to be someone off their ML roster…. which is fairly bleh, aside from Aaron Hill and some decent pitching

by bobnothing on Nov 10, 2009 10:12 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not sold on Riodrigues

  I would take trade #2 over #1. I don’t think the A’s will give up Devine because Beane loves him and he is back up if bailey doesn’t live up to last year.

by Arcman on Nov 10, 2009 7:25 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Some quibbles

Way too optimistic on Donaldson; his median and mean projections should be well below 10 WAR.

Your analysis of Iwamura’s value seemingly ignores his knee injury.

Are any of these TB infielders really worth the trouble. Here are their 2010 ZIP projections:


Rodriguez .229/.308/.400 89 OPS+
Breignac .224/.286/.359 72 OPS+
Aybar .257/.332/.417 100 OPS+

Aybar’s the only one who projects decently, and he only does so because he’s been platooned. That’s not a bad projection for Rodriguez if he can play an average SS, but it’s also nothing to get excited about.

by Danny on Nov 10, 2009 7:46 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

You seem to be saying none of the Rays IF are any good, but neither is Donaldson.

That makes a reasonable trade possible, no? Longshot for longshot?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2009 8:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think they're better than Donaldson

I don’t think Donaldson is anywhere near as valuable as Paul seems to think.

On the other hand, I think Devine and Ziegler are both more valuable than Paul thinks. I can’t see how Kilby is Ziegler’s equal and better than Devine.

by Danny on Nov 10, 2009 8:38 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Kilby had a 3.33 FIP projection according to James, with Ziegler at 3.48

I guess he could be better than Devine if Devine is still recovering…which is likely. I wouldn’t take Kilby over either, but it’s not a ridiculous notion that he’s better.

I agree on Donaldson being non-valuable. I don’t see him as a major league player, whereas Brignac could be a decent SS in a Cesar Izturis kind of way. I especially like the idea of a plus defender at SS with a groundballing staff and Wallace at 3B.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2009 8:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If Kilby is equal to Ziegler and better than Devine,

why are we on #15 on the community prospect list and he’s still not chosen?

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 10, 2009 9:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Because the system is awesome?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2009 9:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Because they're all relief pitchers

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 10, 2009 10:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I get that relief pitchers are less valuable than

other prospects. But speaking only for myself, I don’t see Kilby as equal to Ziegler. (The difference is we just haven’t seen as much of Kilby.) If I did think so, I’d have voted for Kilby possibly at #12 and definitely at #13.

As it is, I’m tentatively planning to vote for him at #16, if no one comes up with a better argument for anyone else.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 10, 2009 1:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Devine has major injury risks

Not only has he had TJS, he’s also had back issues IIRC. He missed a bunch of time with the Braves, too.

Nobody in this post was discounted more for the risk of producing “nothing at all” for large segments of time.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 1:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This is kind of my theory

Since I’m using the same basic methodology to forecast all players in the trade, if I miss, it should be consistently in the same direction. It may result in undervaluing guys with relatively fewer years of team control remaining, but those guys are (as I alluded to in an earlier comment) less likely to move in this trade anyway because of the limitations on the payroll that the Rays can accept.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 1:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Proposal 1

I think the A’s are giving up too much. If the Rays value Rodriguez that much, then I’d tell them to go pound sand.

Will he or Breignac be any better than Pennington?

"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra

by brenarlo on Nov 10, 2009 7:48 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Well, I think so

He’s consistently hit throughout the minors— like Aaron Cunningham, but with a lot more defensive value. If he was still prospect-eligible, I’d slot him in at #4 on the team’s prospect list.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 1:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

First of all, great writeup PT

I just gave it front-page recognition. Second of all, personally I would never do trade 1 if I were the A’s. Either you overrate Sean Rodriguez or I underrate him — and I’m not sure which is true but I see him as far from a “likely thing.”

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 10, 2009 8:14 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

If you didn’t do it, I would have.

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Nov 10, 2009 8:46 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

If you didn’t do it, I would have.

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Nov 10, 2009 8:47 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

...

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Nov 10, 2009 1:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Oops.

That second one was supposed to be a reply to myself.

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Nov 10, 2009 3:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

now you blew the joke, Donnie boy!

You broke character!

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Nov 10, 2009 3:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I shall flog myself!

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Nov 10, 2009 3:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Good, I sure as hell wasn't going to.

Oh, you said, “flog”.

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Nov 10, 2009 3:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's better.

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Nov 10, 2009 3:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Note to Blez

Is there any way to set up SBNation so that one can cross-post on two blogs so that both communities can discuss a trade proposal such as this one? The post would show up on both blogs and all comments could be seen by both blogs, with perhaps something to show from which blog the comment came.

by redtopcowboy on Nov 10, 2009 8:14 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

without having to join the other blog for the purposes of one discussion

(as previously mentioned on here, you can’t delete the blogs from your list, once you’ve posted there)

by bobnothing on Nov 10, 2009 10:16 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If that bothers you, you may want to mention it on

the current tech request thread.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 10, 2009 2:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

what's the haps...

good one

BK: This guy is on fire, he is really smokin'.
KenKo: Oh yeah, Bill? What's he smokin'?

by jlanning17 on Nov 10, 2009 8:26 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

If you're projecting Sean Rodriguez as a 2B then acquiring him is a waste of time

The organizational depth chart goes: Ellis(ML) – Cardenas(AAA) – Weeks(AA). That’s a huge investment by the A’s in the last two years. If you’re thinking S. Rodriguez would play another position for the A’s than I want to see you say so in bold print.

And if the Rays are going to part with Brignac & McGee they’re going to want Wuertz instead of Ziggy. So Donaldson+Wuertz+H. Rodriguez/Gray. Hell, throw in Casilla or Eveland as well. (TB would be doing the A’s a favor if they did.)

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 10, 2009 9:05 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

i like wuertz, but i'd do that deal

TB can also opt to keep their prospectsand just sign a FA reliever.

by Asfan4ever723 on Nov 10, 2009 11:12 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not really

They have no money. They freaked out over the possibility of getting stuck paying $4.5M to Iwamura. That tells me that they have basically no payroll maneuvering room right now.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm going off the theory that 3B and 2B are equivalent positions

While this is somewhat controversial and might not be true for all individuals, it’s fairly well supported by empirical studies of what happens when players switch between the two positions. Rodriguez is 6 foot, 190, so he’s on the tall side for a second baseman in any event.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 1:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So... S. Rodriguez to 3B?

You do realize that in spite of whatever doubts you or I have expressed, the A’s are Hell bent on Wallace taking over 3B? What happens if the A’s are right/get lucky/whatever and Wallace can play an acceptable 3B? You’d have wasted your trade chips on a player that’s blocked from playing the only two positions that his bat shows well at.

I think you can make much more headway with your Brignac idea.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 10, 2009 1:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Rodriguez is quite capable of playing shortstop as well

Not well, perhaps, but not too poorly. If he becomes the next Carlos Guillen, I won’t be crying in my coffee.

He slots in, like Adrian Cardenas, wherever the need arises, be it second, third or shortstop.

Right now, the A’s KNOW that they have a large group of blocked prospects (Rodriguez, Demel, etc etc, not to mention Donaldson himself). There will always be the risk of blocking anytime you have plausible depth at a position— that’s not a reason not to obtain depth. Depth is really really important.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 1:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's also why versatile players of this sort are super valuable

you know that the likelihood is that not all of these prospects are going to pan out, but you don’t know which ones; therefore, if you have players that can play more than one position, so much the better.

I’ll take my prize for most obvious statement of the week, thanks

by bobnothing on Nov 10, 2009 2:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Depth is great, wonderful even

So is finding a quality starter. Using Cardenas as a comp leads me to believe that like Cardenas, Rodriguez lacks the range for SS, the bat for 3B and profiles best at 2B.

A position the A’s already have tremendous depth at.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 10, 2009 4:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't understand how someone can have the bat for 2B and not 3B

The positional adjustments are the same.

Moreover, I don’t understand how you— who understand (understands? Grammar time!) positional adjustments, I know this— continue to say this sort of thing.

If he has the bat for 2B he ipso facto has the bat for 3B. I actually think he “has the bat” for any position other than 1B, myself, but obviously he’d be more valuable the higher up the defensive spectrum you can slot him in.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 5:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with this, although Rodriguez's arm is supposedly marginal for 3B

Still his bat doesn’t seem good enough for anything other than SS, and his glove isn’t good enough there. Sounds like an offensive utility player.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2009 5:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He has a career minor league OPS of .881

I know much of that was compiled in hitter’s parks, but it was also by and large in leagues that he was young for.

The notion that he’s somehow doomed at any position other than shortstop is preposterous.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 6:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Unless you buy into ZiPS

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 1:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The hell?

ZiPS thinks he’s a slightly below average hitter at age 24 who plays a defense-first position. If you take it literally he’s already worth like 1.5-1.8 WAR (depending on position) in his first full season.

Yeah. Obviously doomed.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 10:42 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You'd accept an 89 OPS+ from an average defender at 3B?

I wouldn’t?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 1:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

... he's a fucking prospect

There’s a point to getting prospects. They tend to get better over time.

Especially ones who have hit ridiculously well in the minors.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 1:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And look how well Howie Kendrick is playing!

Hes a star now right?

I just don’t trust the numbers that come from the Angles system.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 2:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Eh, he was above average this season when he played

It’s not his fault the Angels don’t understand the concept of BABIP.

Not a good example.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 2:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hes an average player.

but is no where near the superstar predicted.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 3:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

BA had Kendrick as their #12 prospect in 2006,

just behind Justin Verlander, Lastings Milledge, Matt Cain and Prince Fielder and just ahead of Alex Gordon, Andy Marte, Ryan Zimmerman and Ian Stewart.

He seems about in the middle of that pack. Not the worst and not the best. If you want to be disappointed in someone, try Delmon Young at #1, or even Brandon Wood at #3.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 3:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

How much will he improve?

Do you really think 24-year olds are expected to add a 1.5 wins in value (from 1.3 WAR to 2.9) by age-26?

The projections already include his performance history and his age. The question is how much you expect him to improve from there, and I think you’re overestimating the growth the average 24 year old has left in him.

And if the A’s are currently in need of an infielder, does it make much sense to target a guy who projects to be halfway between replacement level and average in 2010?

by Danny on Nov 11, 2009 2:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

To be fair PECOTA seems to like Rodriguez better than ZiPS does

Last year’s PECOTA projected that Rodriguez would gain about 10 points of EqA between 2009 and his peak in 2013, from .252 to .261. His 75th percentile projection says he’ll gain 14 points from .269 in 2009 to .283 in 2013. His actual translation in 2009 was .299 for AAA.

The average 3B had a .264 EqA in 2009, and a .283 would make him about the 10th best regular at the position. So there is some reason to think he’ll become a good player.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 2:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

A few things

First, PECOTA and ZIPS had nearly identical projections for Rodriguez last year (.235/.305/.403 and .236/.305/.408). I don’t think there’s much reason to assume PECOTA likes him more.

Second, I wouldn’t put any faith into EQA comparisons from different BP pages.

Third, I didn’t realize he turns 25 in April. There’s not much improvement to be expected after one’s age-25 season.

by Danny on Nov 11, 2009 2:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think they did that just to confuse me.

It worked.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 2:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It may not be so much a matter of improvement

as it is that there is a significant probability that he is already that good, but hasn’t had a chance to demonstrate it at the big league level yet.

While that would look like “improvement,” in the sense that the midpoint of his value distribution would be moving to a place where it indicates that he’s worth more to his team, it’s really just the process of narrowing down what is, right now, a very wide range of possible outcomes.

If you subscribe to this viewpoint, then I suppose the starting point for his projection would be higher and the endpoint lower, which would have the effect of reducing his projected WAR for the purposes of this thread (since he’d plateau at a lower level). I don’t know that the difference is that great, however. It might take only Donaldson and Devine without Gray… or with Casilla substituted for Gray…

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 2:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wait...are you saying he's a prospect and therefore

will improve or that he’s already good? It looks like neither is true, but I want to know which of your arguments to refute.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 2:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's the former

I’m just pointing out that the latter is also a consistent position.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 3:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think where I'm coming out on this is that

Rodriguez has about a 25% chance of being an above average 3B for two or more years at some point during the next six years, and about a 10% chance of that in 2010.

It’s how I can reconcile all the data points.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 3:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think he's referring to 3B being a "power" position.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 10, 2009 6:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you for clarifying for me

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 10, 2009 6:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Speaking of which

Longoria got the GG today… and he actually had the highest UZR of all qualifying 3B in the majors.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 10, 2009 6:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But the GG folks got the OF wrong again

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 10, 2009 6:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

at least if they're going to get it wrong

they could pick Ryan Sweeney!

"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 10, 2009 6:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

NO

I never want any of our players to win awards. It increases their arby awards which is bad.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 10:19 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm glad you're not my boss.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 10:30 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Boo.

Awards make the guys happy. It’s good to make your guys happy.

This is in that category we were talking about where sometimes there are worthy goals which cannot be measured in wins nor dollars and may even affect those negatively.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 11, 2009 11:01 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree.

If winning an award is the difference between being able to afford keeping a guy and not keeping a guy, then screw the award.

They’re not going to be mad at the club for not winning an award; It’s not the club’s fault.

The club benefits without the player being mad at the club.

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Nov 11, 2009 1:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Whether they blame the club isn't the point.

We want to take care of our guys and part of that is whatever makes them happy, regardless of whether the team gets credit for it.

If you love someone, you wish well for them. If you only care insofar as you score points for it, you’re doing it wrong.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 11, 2009 2:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Er

Corporations do not “love” people. They do not have “feelings.” They have bottom lines.

Insofar as happiness is ever relevant to a corporation, it’s only to the extent that it impacts productivity and/or the risk of someone quitting.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 2:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Also to the extent that it affects recruiting

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 2:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Um corporations are people... they can certainly love.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 3:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The Supreme Court can declare corporations people until it's blue in the face

Doesn’t actually make it so.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 3:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Worst typo ever.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 3:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This is true. I hear Oracle has a thing for Sun.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 3:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Then how come computers answer their phones?

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 11, 2009 3:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What you don't have voice mail?

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 3:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure I do

but that doesn’t mean that my phone is answered by an automated system BEFORE I get to talk.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 11, 2009 3:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Corporations --

and to clarify, I’m talking about privately held corporations here, since that’s what most baseball teams are — are owned and controlled by individuals. I don’t see why it’s so hard for you to grasp that an owner’s personal goals and priorities can be passed through to the corporation as easily as his capital.

Let’s scale it down. Say ten years from now you decide to start your own business. You quit the big firm you’re at, form a PLLC and open your own office. You’ve got, say, 12 employees.

Sure, you want your company to make money, and profitability will remain important, but it’s not the only thing that matters to you. You also ask yourself what do you want to do with your life. You will feel a personal attachment to employees who have been with the company for a few years, and to whatever extent it’s not impractical, you’ll be glad to take an opportunity to support them in their personal goals. This is not some utopian fantasy I’m talking about. This is what happens every day in small business across America.

Sure, you lose some of the immediacy when you expand it to a large corporation, but the principle is no different. I just don’t think it’s so hard to see that Lew Wolff might be proud and pleased to see Mark Ellis win a Gold Glove, even if it makes it harder to re-sign him when his contract runs out.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 11, 2009 4:01 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

People who take that kind of attitude

get outcompeted by people who only look at the bottom line. Most successful businesspeople are complete assholes.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 4:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If you define "successful businesspeople"

as those who have made at least $100 million in business, I personally know several who are not the least bit assholes, and I cannot think of anyone in that group who is. Of course if they were assholes they probably wouldn’t bother talking to me.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 5:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I actually this is one of the most common mistakes

corporations make. If you treat people well, they work harder, stay longer, show more loyalty, and spread better word about the company.

There is a financial value, as well as a moral one, to treating employees well. It’s just not as immediate so many corporations don’t see the value.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 11, 2009 5:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I really like this

“Like”

"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 11, 2009 7:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Depending on how you define your terms,

— “successful”, “asshole” — and how large a population you consider, I think by almost any reasonable definition you’ll find that claim to be factually incorrect. Most successful businesspeople are not complete assholes.

Others are making the case for generosity to people having indirect financial rewards. I’m not even talking about that. I’m saying that people who succeed in business still have goals in life, and one of those goals is to be good to the people around them. In a narrow economic model, you could say that the ability to be generous is a commodity the owner chooses to purchase with his profits.

However you model it, people do it. Even the most materialistic business leader has something beyond money motivating him.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 11, 2009 8:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Obviously I disagree

but it’s unprovable either way, so probably best to let it lie.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 11:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Although I have skipped over most of the banter

I do want to say great post PT. Ir certainly has stirred quite the debate.

Cheers! -MRod

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox

by mrod on Nov 11, 2009 11:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

ahhh, Capitalism at its finest

"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 11, 2009 7:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not really its not like the awards go to the best player.

They go to the most popular player that didn’t play shockingly badly in terms of GGs.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 1:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe so

but it’s possible that the publicity is worth more than the award “costs” the team in arbitration.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 1:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This is possible

but really who goes to the game to see GG Ryan Sweeney that wouldn’t go to see regular old Ryan Sweeney?

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 1:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The people who see the "come see GG Ryan Sweeney" ads on BART?

I don’t know, it’s hard to exactly capture the value of marketing efforts.

Now, I suppose you could argue that for the A’s in particular, awards are bad because they’ll be so poorly marketed that the value will be squandered uselessly…

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 1:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

MVP/CY Young maybe

but the A’s have to be contenders for them to win those awards. To the general public I don’t think anyone cares about GGs.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 1:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Arbitrators (arbiters?) are part of the general public

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 1:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think if you asked the general public...

if a player who won a GG should make more they would say yes, and yet that would have no impact on their personal decision to see a team play with that player on it.

Arbiters is the term you are looking for here. Arbitrators are the parties involved in the arbitration.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 2:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You're wrong

For example: JAMS arbitrators are among the best and most experienced.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 11, 2009 2:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The freedictionary and my experience with labor arbiters says otherwise.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 3:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It does?

ar·bi·tra·tor (ärb-trtr)
n.
1. A person chosen to settle the issue between parties engaged in a dispute.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 11, 2009 4:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

ar·bi·ter (ärb-tr)
n.
1. One chosen or appointed to judge or decide a disputed issue; an arbitrator.
2. One who has the power to judge or ordain at will: an arbiter of fashion. See Synonyms at judge.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 4:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's not what I'm taking issue with

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 11, 2009 5:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

“arbitrators are the parties” is very very wrong. I don’t know what a “labor arbiter” is, but it’s either a labor arbitrator or someone who is not involved in arbitrations, and probably nothing. Arbitrators do the mlb arbitrations. the parties are called “parties.”

With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery

by mikeA on Nov 11, 2009 4:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Thats right

and I don’t know what I was thinking on that part.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 4:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Phew

glad that’s over

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 11, 2009 5:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

..OF ALL TIME!

Of all time.

Stewart: "What really needs to be clear is it wouldn't have mattered if there was an earthquake or not. We were going to beat the Giants.

by Elvez on Nov 12, 2009 8:33 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree

I suspect there’s a reason I see a lot of chavvy t-shirts around, even though he’s not been an integral part of the team since 2006.

To answer an earlier point, I know the awards don’t mean anything. You know the awards don’t mean anything.

But I’d bet that they mean something to the players. After all, why was it such a big deal for Chavez to give Wash one of his GG awards?

I suspect, national recognition of any sort generates fandom of ome sort (however incompetently used). I don’t have any solid proof of cause and effect, but I think I logical chain can be drawn.

Awards = Hope. Hope = Fans. Fans = Revenue.

We can argue the relative Return on winning a gold glove vs. the marginal cost avoided by the player not winning one.

Of course, this conversation is completely irrelevant ot the A’s signing because the A’s will win a gold glove some time next doomsday.

by eastbayexpat on Nov 11, 2009 2:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Um you might want to try that he had a killer bat for years

was signed to a multi year extension and was highly marketed as the face of the franchise.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 2:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you're completely ignoring the core of my point

But to take the argument. You’re telling me that 6 Gold Gloves had nothing to do with his marketability?

Especially since his batting peaked in 2004, yet he was still the face of the franchise in 2006?

by eastbayexpat on Nov 11, 2009 4:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you ignore how little people know/care about fielding awards

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 4:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I know Eddie Gaedel

sure appreciated the award he got!

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 11, 2009 4:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think that's what we disagree on

I think I don’t care about fielding awards because they’re always badly awarded.

But I don’t think I’m representative of the population.

And to be honest, I think that folks care that XYZ player on a team that they have some attachment to has won some award that’s ostensibly important. I believe its an incremental positive.

by eastbayexpat on Nov 11, 2009 7:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

when you are old

would you rather tell your grand children you won a gold glove, or that you SHOULD have won a gold glove?

"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 11, 2009 7:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh Jeebus....!

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox

by mrod on Nov 11, 2009 11:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

and SS.

and 1B.

Oh well.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 10, 2009 6:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

UZR liked Jeter in 2009

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 1:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not nearly as much as Andrus or Adam Everett

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 11, 2009 8:27 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

True. Andrus was a revelation.

An inspired choice by the Rangers rather than signing a stopgap.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 9:46 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Man, if that dude ever learns how to hit...

look the hell out.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 11, 2009 9:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i've been saying that about myself for years

so far….so bad.

"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 11, 2009 7:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I should have been more clear

As mikev pointed out, I was referring to “expectations” when I made the bat comment.

As for positional adjustments in general, let’s just say that I have some concerns about their accuracy. Or maybe that’s just indigestion.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 10, 2009 6:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

OK

but I couldn’t care less that the general public thinks 3B is like 1B except on the other side of the diamond.

It isn’t that, and pretending that it is is a recipe for making bad decisions.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 6:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think that's what grover is saying at all

Just that 3rd you expect more power out of than at second base. You expect more defense and less offensive out of 3rd compared to 1st.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Nov 11, 2009 7:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes and Paul is saying that there is no good reason to expect more

power from 3B than from 2B, since the defensive skill requirements are similar, with maybe 3B needing more arm and 2B a bit more range, but not that much.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 8:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps these defensive positional adjustments need adjusting

Both 2B and 3B need to field the balls hit their way, but 2B (along with SS) have to make all those acrobatic double plays, something 3B rarely has to do.

So, yep, I want more defense at 2B than 3B, regardless what some stat says.

by redtopcowboy on Nov 11, 2009 10:01 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's all well and good, but 2B's moving to 3B and 3B moving to 2B

haven’t historically lost significant effectiveness on average. Individual players have, but players as a whole have not.

Since managers, like you, have historically expected more offense from 3B, they’ve overestimated the difficulty in playing 2B relative to 3B, and they’ve cost themselves offense at 2B.

Personally I don’t see why making DPs is more difficult or important than fielding much harder hit balls, guarding against bunts, getting a worse angle on pop flies or making longer throws. It’s just different.

Here’s an article.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 10:16 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Good points

I will ponder this in my heart.

by redtopcowboy on Nov 11, 2009 10:24 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That is a wonderful sentence.

Very cowboy-like. Or maybe Ichiro-like.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 11, 2009 11:03 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Here is the thing that skews positional adjustments

The people that make up that sample are self selected by managers who think they would be able to play both positions. Players like Chone Figgins for example are way different than Brett Wallace. I think that generally there are players at 3b that you wouldn’t want anywhere near 2b and less that you wouldn’t want to come from second base to third. Is it a significant difference? I don’t know and there isn’t a good way to measure it.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 11:19 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I can think of a lot of 2Bs

I wouldn’t want at third. Our own Mark Ellis is the model. Basically any guy with a weak arm.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 11, 2009 11:24 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the arm strength argument is overplayed

and moving up the middle away from first and behind 3b is probably just as hard of a throw as going down the line and or charging. Fielding the ball is much more important for me. You can’t throw someone out if you don’t get to the ball and there are lots of plays where just getting to the ball saves an extra base.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 11:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm, OK.

I don’t pretend to have any direct knowledge of the throws.

I do know they say Ellis can’t play SS because he no longer has the arm for it. Am I misinterpreting that?

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 11, 2009 2:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You are correct

It’s a longer throw at a different angle.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 11, 2009 2:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

SS need better arms than 3bman though.

That play deep in the hole is much more common IMO.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 3:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ellis is a weird edge case though

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 2:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The UZR difference might be skewed by that but the

Fan Scouting Report differences are also not that significant.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Im not sure I follow.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 1:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Part of Tango's thesis is that the Fan Scouting Report

can be used as a non-horrible proxy for tools, and that fielding skill is basically the sum of one’s tools. He’s saying that based on Fan Scouting Report there isn’t a huge difference between the tools of 3B and 2B, in terms of Instincts, First Step, Hands, Release, Strength and Accuracy. There might be a slight bias for 3B to have stronger arms but that’s about it.

Given time a 3B with the same tools as a 2B (which they largely have), can learn the DP.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 2:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Im suggesting that the only players that switch are those with the same tools

where as those with tools that are specific to the positions aren’t put in a position to play both by their managers.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 3:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes and he's suggesting that the overall

population of players at either position have much the same tools as each other, whether they end up switching or not.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 3:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I just think that is hard to determine without watching the shift from one to another.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 3:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree that his conclusion is a bit

counter-intuitive. That’s why it’s so awesome.

He even applies the conclusion to CF. It doesn’t mean that the Orioles would have been equally well off if they switched Paul Blair and Brooks Robinson, but it does indicate that the positions are more fungible than previously believed.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 3:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What research has been done

doesn’t say anything about the positions being more or less fungible than anyone believes. The point of it is just to try to get a sense of the relative fielding skills of different positions.

It definitely does NOT mean you should expect player A who is a 2B to be x runs worse at SS or x runs better at 1B based on the positional values that have been calculated.

With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery

by mikeA on Nov 11, 2009 4:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why not?

I mean if the positional adjustments are the average fielding difference between players who play both positions, then doesn’t it assume that the drop will be fairly consistent around those numbers unless a particular skill is lacked.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 4:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There are diminishing returns around the fringes

i.e. if you move a league-average SS to 1B he probably will not be 20 runs above average there, because that’s basically impossible.

However, on the whole, this is correct. The observed rise in ability from “downshifting” a player tends to be about what you’d expect from the difference in positional adjustments.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 4:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The observed rise in ability from "downshifting" a player tends to be about what you’d expect from the difference in positional adjustments.

It depends how close you like, I guess, but it isn’t really that close for any given player, there are inconsistencies and asymmetries at a lot of positions, and the guys who actually do switch are of course the guys that have skills more compatible to two positions or whatever it may be.

Taking someone’s defensive projection based on data at some position, and projection that player’s performance at another position by applying the position adjustment would be a very inaccurate method. And, again, that is not not not what the position adjustments are designed to accomplish or prove.

With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery

by mikeA on Nov 11, 2009 5:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Because it's very inconsistent from player to player

with the biggest differences expected from guys who don’t actually change positions. Using the mean of some large sample of selection-biased performers is just not a good way of predicting some individual player. “A particular skill is lacked” all the time.

Not only that, there are big asymmetries when switching around the IF (actually this entire comment only applies to the IF). If the adjustment that got calculated between SS and 2B is 5 runs, in the data it would have been something like 2B-SS is -7.5 and SS-2B is +2.5. You would get an even larger asymmetry for something like SS-1B/1B-SS. And that is based on the players who actually switch; the guys who don’t switch would have larger discrepancies. You would get something even more outlandish by including catchers.

The positional adjustments are emphatically not a projection of what would happen if someone switched (although it works for the OF.) The point is to figure out the relative value/relative skill at the various positions.

With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery

by mikeA on Nov 11, 2009 5:15 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

The positional adjustments alone are not

projections of what would happen if a player switched, but, in conjunction with the scouting reports they can be used to estimate that.

You can argue that the Fan Scouting Report is silly, but that’s a separate issue.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 5:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't have any particular problem with

the fans scouting report, or just guessing based on skill sets. Using the position adjustments does not do much good. Even going by the data they are based on, you’ll get different results based on whether it’s position x to position y versus position y to position x, and for certain switches (C to anything, IF to OF/OF to IF) it would be a completely absurd exercise.

With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery

by mikeA on Nov 11, 2009 5:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

All true, but for the purpose of setting

offensive expectations for defensive positions, I find it quite useful…more useful than the old method of taking the average offensive output by position.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 12, 2009 8:05 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

aka the self fulfilling prophecy

that 2bmen can’t hit like 3bmen.

"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 11, 2009 7:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

+2 on your uncanny ability to throw latin terms into this site!

by hishnik on Nov 12, 2009 12:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Great write up

Couple thoughts:

I recall from the BA top 20s that Matt Moore had an abysmal bb rate through the first 30 innings or so this past year and from that point on was actually pretty decent (~3.5bb/9). His k rate is filthy and he’ll be 21 in June, so its not unlikely that he could be in the rotation by mid 2011. Given McGee’s similar trouble with command, lack of secondary offerings and the time and risk associated with his TJ recovery, I definitely prefer Moore.

I like Rodriguez if he can play short, but the Rays may want him to fill Zobrists 08 role since he clearly has the better bat.

Not sure Brignac is going to hit – that 06 power output looks like a Cal league aberation and his plate discipline is questionable. On the other hand, I like the thought of throwing him and Pennington out there and hoping one of the two develops enough to hold down the spot until Green is ready.

I think the Rays will prefer the A’s more established bullpen arms. Their window isnt closing yet, but its wide open right now and they need to go for it while they can.

My offer: Wuertz, Donaldson and Breslow for Moore and Brignac.

by NRC on Nov 10, 2009 9:43 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Donaldson is expendable

I like donaldson, but with Suzuki and Powell in the majors and Stassi coming from low minors, Donaldson is tradeable. If you trade him, along with our pitching depth (Henry Rodriguez) and expendable outfielder (Cunningham or Buck) for an impact bat at a skill position, then its a good idea.

Or simply sign Tejada for one year at 3b/SS untill Wallace or Grant Green is ready.

by StewCrew on Nov 10, 2009 9:58 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Why is recker in the discussion

one could argue his power/milb #s out do suzuki, but he’s also older than him by afew months.
Recker was an interesting option a few yrs ago when he destroyed the CAL league and this system lacked power prospects, but i doubt he even gets a 40 man spot this winter.

by Asfan4ever723 on Nov 10, 2009 11:16 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

All this is good for the Rays

But I don’t see a huge upside for the A’s.

From where I sit, I see two needs for the A’s, other than power anywhere:

1. One or two experienced starters who can ease pressure on the youngsters and allow Mazzaro, Cahill and Gio the opportunity to spend more time in AAA if necessary. Signing Duchsherer and trading some excess relief pitchers for the second starter would do that.

2. A place-holder for Wallace at 3B (It sounds like Wallace will get a season or two at the hot corner to see if he can cut it) assuming Chavez is toast. If this same person can play 2B and SS, and can hit a bit, you’re set. A secondary IF back-up would also be nice. The best place to look is Miggy, if he’s available. If not, the team can pick up Kennedy on the cheap and use Petit for SS if Pennington fails while they look around the dumpster for a replacement for the year.

I would not use the excess relief staff for underachieving Rays infielders.

To me, what I’m seeing, generally, is a team that needs some kind of shakedown cruise before changes are made. Meaning that if I were Beane, once I fulfilled my needs (Duke, a second starter, an older back-up IF that can hit and adequately field), I’d wait until the late May reassessment before making any move - unless someone makes me an offer I can’t refuse.

by richwol1 on Nov 10, 2009 11:40 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Trying to trade relief pitchers for established starters strikes me as a fool's errand

Who, exactly, is going to sign up for that? I could see something like Desme/Ziegler/Rodriguez landing Derek Lowe, but can the A’s even realistically pay his salary?

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 1:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's what three-way trades are about

If Beane wants a starter, and someone wants a couple of relievers, there’s a potential for a trade involving a third party. I wouldn’t necessarily call out any names at this point.

I just don’t see the idea of trading your extra pieces simply for the sake of trading your extra pieces. None of these Rays players would fit long-term into the A’s plans, not with the prospects the A’s already have at each position. It seems to me that it’s time for the A’s to settle in, find short-term elements who will meld with the team, as other elements move up through the ranks. I’m not seeing that with the Rays.

by richwol1 on Nov 10, 2009 8:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't understand why they would not fit into the A's plans

when they are, basically, much better than the current “plans.”

There’s very little room for argument that Sean Rodriguez is not better than Pennington, and strictly as a third base prospect, I suspect he’s a better one than Brett Wallace is (though Wallace is better overall).

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 9:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

but then what do we do with Pennington?

or Cardenas for that matter if we wanted him to play SS? It seems like dealing to get Rodriguez is dealing just to deal. Sure, we want to deal from strength, but we need to get something useful too. And it’s not currently known (though you’re right, no reason to believe he CAN’T) whether he can even play SS at a high level.

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

by cuppingmaster on Nov 10, 2009 10:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Put him on the bench as the utility man, which is the role he'd be playing on a good team to begin with?

Pennington’s a useful player as a guy who can play 3 infield positions and steal a base when you need one. He’s probably not a very useful player as a starting shortstop.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 11:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And might I add

that there is no guarantee on any of these prospects. Better to have too many than too little. Especially when hitting and our infield has been such a problem for the last few years.

"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 11, 2009 4:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Better than the A's current plans?

Brignac has power, but no patience. Rodriguez seems to be a utility guy. The A’s have Pennington at SS now, Wallace for the next couple of years with Cardenas around in case he needs to move to 1B. Weeks coming in at second base when Ellis goes. Green, a top prospect, groomed for SS.

I guess I’m wondering why you’d want to jump the gun this winter and pick up some redundancy when the A’s actual needs for 2010 and 2011 have not yet been fully established, and you’ve got great trade bait.

During spring training, the A’s will get a long and hard look at Wallace, and by mid-June we’ll all know if Pennington can actually cut it. Wouldn’t it make sense, if needs aren’t met by then, to use the relief surplus at that time? I don’t think the A’s will lose any leverage by waiting because the longer we go into 2010, the more teams will be clamoring for relief help.

by richwol1 on Nov 10, 2009 11:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Because right now there is a particular situation which holds and which may not hold at a later date

That situation is that the Rays need relief and catching help and have extra infielders.

In six months, they probably will have already traded one of the infielders and may not even be contending sufficiently to need the relievers.

Believe me, the A’s have more than enough relief pitching to continue to make moves at the deadline if other teams are hunting for help. I’d expect Wuertz to move to a contender by July if the A’s aren’t themselves one.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 10:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

One reason to deal the relief surplus now

is that by mid-season some of the guys will have slumped or gotten hurt. During the same time, some new relievers will come out of the woodwork (from our farm, from waiver pickups, etc) and start to look good. The effect on the Oakland bullpen is a wash, but in terms of trading, your average expected value is better if you trade now.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 11, 2009 11:09 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Holy shit

You do hate Brett Wallace, don’t you?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 11, 2009 7:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Mickey Storey

I’m curious to see what happens to him. He doesnt throw as hard as some of the other reliever prospects, but his control and ability to have a true out pitch (curveball) could probably surpass most of them. Yesterday 2in/5k’s FB 89/90 mph but every K came off that curveball. The A’s have had reliever prospects do well statistically in the minors but for whatever reason didnt progress after like robertson, mitchell, burton, mcbeth, etc.

by Asfan4ever723 on Nov 10, 2009 11:48 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

The Rays are immensely more likely to trade Bartlett than Brignac

And the A’s probably aren’t the world’s best trading partner for him, in part because the A’s have similar financial constraints and partly because Beane has a clue about properly evaluating talent. But his value is inflated and he’s starting to get expensive, which means he’ll probably be traded.

I’m far from sold on Donaldson, and I’ve never been a huge fan. He might be a decent throw-in piece, but he strikes me as a backup type who’s unlikely to be a significant upgrade over what I expect Navarro to be in the future.

Neither Zobrist nor Rodriguez plays SS well enough to be a long-term solution at the position for a team that values defense, such as the A’s or the Rays.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Nov 10, 2009 12:28 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

You may be right, but that makes no sense to me

The Rays are in a contending phase. You’d have to be a Grade A lunatic to think that Brignac is better than Jason Bartlett right now, which means that any such trade is going to hurt the team in 2010.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 1:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

To think he's better?

Sure. But to think he could be about even? I don’t think so. Bartlett’s due for some serious regression, and Brignac’s glove is better than Bartlett’s. If there’s a one-win difference between the two, and Bartlett can be traded for guys who have a 2-win difference between the current Rays players, then a Bartlett trade is a no-brainer.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Nov 11, 2009 9:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

ZiPS thinks Bartlett is a 101 OPS+ hitter, and Brignac a 72 OPS+ hitter.

Does that compute to only a one win difference, even considering defense?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 9:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's like a 30-run difference on offense, maybe slightly less

so… no.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 10:52 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Does ZiPS project wOBA?

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 11, 2009 10:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wait, shit

That’s not right. I forgot about the halving-to-get-percentages-from-average thing. God, OPS+ is a weird statistic.

More like 15 runs difference. So yes, one win is plausible.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 10:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Now today I looked up Teahen and found that a 90 OPS+ was 8.5 runs below average

Clearly a 72 has to be more than twice that far.

I’m now hopelessly confused about what a 72 OPS+ actually means in the first place, but I am pretty comfortable asserting that it’s about 25 runs worse than a 101 OPS+… so the difference between the two players is likely about 2 wins.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 5:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Each ops+ unit means less in terms of runs the farther you get from 100 in either direction

It’s a very strangely conceived stat…

With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery

by mikeA on Nov 11, 2009 5:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Two wins sounds more plausible than one win. A 72 OPS+ is really horrible.

If it were only one win that would mean that any OPS+ difference of less than 20 points was basically meaningless. That doesn’t sound right.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 12, 2009 8:07 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I have a couple questions

Rodriguez is supposed to be pretty awful at SS, which puts him at 2B (Ellis, Weeks, Cardenas) or 3B, but would Rodriguez really be that large of an upgrade over Donaldson, assuming Donaldson is capable of playing 3B?

Also, I would love McGee, but is Brignac really that much of an upgrade at Pennington at this point? This might be a stupid question, but I know Pennington has been slowed by injuries which has hampered his power development, as has Brignac. Brignac has actually showed signs of power in his minor league career, but he hasn’t exactly torn it up the past two years.

Good post.

If you think Billy Beane is a bad GM, I hate you and find you stupid.

by NateHST on Nov 10, 2009 12:54 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Cool analysis PT and I appreciate the work here, but...

I’m just not all that excited about either of these deals as they are currently constructed. Not that they don’t make sense, it’s just that trades involving 30-year old relievers and tarnished former-top prospects that probably profile best as back-up infielders at this point just don’t really get me overly titillated.

I’d like the A’s to actually inquire on Bartlett, if they are in-fact going to pursue one of Tampa’s infielders. He had a career-year last year with the bat that he’ll likely never replicate, but even if he goes back to being a .700 OPS hitter, he still brings a solid glove at short, is more of a “field general” than Pennington will likely ever be and is a local guy out of the Stockton area. He’s only 30 and might get a significant raise in arbitration this season and next, which may force the Rays’ hand, as they attempt to cut costs and afford Crawford long-term.

I have no idea how a deal would be constructed for Bartlett…maybe Wuertz, Doolittle (to take over 1st after Pena leaves after 2010?) Donaldson and another pitching prospect?

Point being: Bartlett can immediately step in and cover short for the foreseeable future and play at an above-average level. These other guys…Rodgriguez/Brignac…the jury is still very much still out on them.

I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!

by Taj Adib on Nov 10, 2009 12:58 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Wueurtz, Doolittle, Donaldson, and another pitcher for Bartlett?

Holy overpayment, Batman.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 10, 2009 1:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

...yeah.

God, but that would be a horribly bad trade.

I don’t consider through 2011 to be “the foreseeable future,” either. If you’re uber-optimistic about Grant Green, maybe, but I’m not. He’s a prospect with severe risks.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 1:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Huh?

One above-average relief pitcher and three non-top 10 prospects that might not even make it to the major leagues for one reason or the other for an established shortstop that’s still in his theoretical prime, is under club control for 2 more seasons, generally plays above-average defense at a premium position and is coming off of 4.8 WAR season?

How is that overpaying? Not to mention that all prospects involved from the A’s perspective will likely be blocked at the major league level by much better players even if they do prove to be MLB—worthy at some point in the near future…

I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!

by Taj Adib on Nov 10, 2009 2:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

On AN's community prospect list,

Donaldson and Doolittle are not “non-top 10 prospects”. They rank #7 and #10 respectively.

By the way, I didn’t know Jason Bartlett was from the 209. That’s kind of cool.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 10, 2009 2:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Still I don't see the Rays doing that deal.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2009 2:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You've got to be kidding me

You wouldn’t have put the phone down before the paperwork would show up in your fax machine. They get a relief pitcher, a potential 1B solution, a potential catching solution, AND a prospect and all it costs is one overrated shortstop who’s leaving in two years anyway?

I said I didn’t really understand trading Bartlett now earlier on the thread, but that kind of overpay should be taken advantage of every time it’s offered. The A’s would be giving away WAR at at least a 4 to 1 ratio in that deal. And that’s a pessimistic assessment. Ridiculously one-sided.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 2:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I have a more pessimistic scenario

Brignac takes over at SS and puts up a 72 OPS+ playing good defense and is a 1.5 WAR player. Wuertz regresses to a 1.5 WAR player. Doolittle is plagued by injuries. Donaldson doesn’t make the majors.

At this point I’m thinking about saving my job by signing Orlando Cabrera. I know it probably won’t work.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2009 3:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So, what you're saying is that even in the worst scenario you can imagine,

the Rays are still probably better off than they would be if they kept Bartlett instead of taking that package.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 5:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It would actually be pretty close...closer than I thought it would be.

They’re downgrading from Bartlett to Brignac at SS, maybe losing 2 WAR and upgrading from a replacement level reliever to Wuertz, gaining maybe 1.5 WAR.

They’re also saving about $2M in the exchange that they could conceivably put into upgrading the pen or signing Zaun or something. They then get Doolittle and Donaldson for free. I like Doolittle and he could audition as a 2011 replacement for Pena.

I don’t like Donaldson much so I’d want someone else that I liked better. Since I’m in “Win Now” mode I’d rather have another reliever than a prospect (other than Carter, Wallace Green, Weeks or Cardenas), so I’d probably want Blevins or Kilby.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2009 5:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Oops...add Ynoa to that list of prospects.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2009 5:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

re

You kind of brushed over Jaso. John Jaso is very similar to Donaldson, right down to defensive limitations (actually, Jaso was unquestionably better at the same age and level). And, like you noted, the Rays have no interest in him. Why would they have interest in Donaldson? The fact is, all around baseball, catcher is a defense first position. You can make a million WAR projections that seem reasonable, but MLB teams don’t look at that position the way sabremetricians do. Ftr, they also don’t seem to think too highly of minor league players whose best attribute is the ability to take walks. Donaldson as a major piece in any deal sending Briganc this way seems a nonstarter, imo.

As for Rodriguez, by most accounts he’s not a SS. Obviously the A’s wouldn’t get him to play 2B, and his bat probably isn’t enough to end the Wallace 3B experiment.

by AgitationStation on Nov 10, 2009 1:03 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Jaso might well have been rated higher than Donaldson once upon a time, but that's water under the bridge now

Brian Dopirak was once rated pretty highly, too…

I apparently have a better opinion of Rodriguez’s hitting upside than most people. Look at his AAA numbers. Salt Lake or no Salt Lake, they’re approaching what Jack Cust did. Don’t you at some point have to give that some respect? His MLE from this season was actually above average for MLB. That’s incredibly rare for a prospect. I think he could easily carry the weight of hitting at 3B.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 2:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I like the idea

All the points are valid but I think we give up too much in option 1. I probably value Devine more than I should and I think Gray could be pretty good.

Option 2 looks ok because I think we have already seen the best of Brad Ziegler and I am not convinced HRod will ever figure it out.

So I guess it comes down to me liking Devine more than Ziegler, which maybe isn’t correct, but thats what my gut is telling me.

Regardless, I could definately see something like this happening.

I also forsee a trade of some of our outfield depth (Buck/Patterson/whoever) somewhere along the way… not sure who matches up well there, but I suspect an NL team where those guys have a chance at hitting.

I assume any trade would take place before any FA signing so hopefully we see something soon.

by DrDoom on Nov 10, 2009 1:23 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Also

I would do Wuertz for Rodriguez now and before and twice on Sunday.

by DrDoom on Nov 10, 2009 1:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You had me at "verbose"

"Tonto think Billy Beane need to make team full of squirrels and bears."

by OptimistPrime on Nov 10, 2009 1:26 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

That word still to this day makes me think of Zork.

Stewart: "What really needs to be clear is it wouldn't have mattered if there was an earthquake or not. We were going to beat the Giants.

by Elvez on Nov 10, 2009 2:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It makes me think of this scrap of verse:

To find a rhyme for silver
(or any “rhymeless rhyme”)
requires only will, ver-
bosity and time.

I think that’s by W.R. Espy, but not certain.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 10, 2009 4:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Lots of catching depth

And the A’s added Leyland and Massi (high schoolers) in the 2009 draft. I read somewhere that they both had promise but I couldn’t find anything at Sickel’s sight.

Anything on them PT?

"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King

by Buck Turgidson on Nov 10, 2009 1:54 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Leyland is only notionally a catcher

He has a lot of raw power, but there is almost no chance that he sticks behind the plate. Stassi is more likely to, but it’s always hard to tell with high schoolers.

In any event, both are so far away from the majors that they are completely unrealistic as options before, at the earliest, 2012 (and that would be like a Hall of Fame-type career track).

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 2:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Stax Massi?

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 10, 2009 2:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He was born under a bad sign

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2009 2:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

he he

"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King

by Buck Turgidson on Nov 10, 2009 2:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Tucker Max!

"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 10, 2009 6:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

"Max Stassi fails to excell at catcher. Hilarity does not ensue."

Stewart: "What really needs to be clear is it wouldn't have mattered if there was an earthquake or not. We were going to beat the Giants.

by Elvez on Nov 10, 2009 10:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hm, so I didn't realize AN had a one-day waiting period

Might explain the lack of the anticipated Rays commenters.

I did post a fanshot over there, so if you’re interested, there is a second thread of sorts open. Although they might have a one-day waiting period too. In which case this would all be sort of pointless.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 3:05 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

R.J.'s a member here, though

He’s participated in threads here before.

I’ll try to email him tonight and get him to check it out.

Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.

by notsellingjeans on Nov 10, 2009 4:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Zobrist

is what the A’s really need. If Bailey wins the ROY award next week, Beane should look to trade him straight up for Zobrist. He can play SS/OF and rakes. The Rays will have depth to replace him (Rodriguez) and we will have any number of arms to take over the closer role.

by reggiejax on Nov 10, 2009 4:35 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Nobody there seems to agree with any trade proposed by an A's fan.

Not even Wuertz for Brignac, which I would have to be talked into as an A’s fan.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2009 4:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

everybody sees the half-full glass with their own team's prospects

at least, vis-a-vis another team’s prospects, anyway.

Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.

by notsellingjeans on Nov 10, 2009 5:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The Wuertz for Brignac deal was panned by both sides

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 10, 2009 5:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Which is usually the sign of an even deal

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Nov 11, 2009 9:18 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But..but Wuertz had a better tRA than Mariano Rivera and Brignac sucks at the plate

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 9:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But..but Brignac is a SS controlled for 6 years and Wuertz a RP controlled for 2

of his most expensive arb years.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 9:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Then trade Weurtz for Bartlett instead of Brignac

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 11, 2009 9:57 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I like this idea.

I’d even like it if the Rays made the A’s throw in Doolittle and Donaldson.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 10:04 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Eh. I wouldn't go that far.

But that’s just because I don’t think there’s any way in hell Jason Bartlett is truly a 4.8 WAR player. He had a hell of a season last year, though.

I’m also not sure Tampa is willing to take the drop of Bartlett to Brignac when they’re contending, as PT has said elsewhere.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 11, 2009 10:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Right they'd never do it given their contending status, but it would be a good deal for the A's.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 3:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Weurtz, Doolittle, and Donaldson for Bartlett?

No, I don’t think that would be a good deal for the A’s

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 11, 2009 3:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's because you probably think Donaldson and Doolittle

are valuable.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 3:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, I'm probably about as anti-Doolittle as it gets around here.

But that doesn’t mean that he (or Donaldson) have no value.

I also don’t think Bartlett will ever be a 4.8 WAR player again. He’s got 2 more years of arb left, but he’s already 30 and it’s probably likely that he just had the best season of his life.

You think he’ll keep being a 3 WAR player? Even if you do, what’s the point of trading for 2 years of a 3 WAR shortstop when one of those years is not a year of the team contending?

Bartlett’s age and contract status keep him from being the type of guy that it would make sense to acquire.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 11, 2009 4:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not convinced the A's won't contend in 2010 with Bartlett at SS.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 5:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If they do, it won't be because of Bartlett.

I guess, if they grabbed Longoria and Upton along with him.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 11, 2009 6:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's also because they're not that bad now.

And if they get contributions from Carter and Wallace, they could be better than that. If one of Cahill/Gio/Mazzaro steps up as a #2, they could be better still.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 12, 2009 8:09 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No, trade Wuertz for Mariano Rivera!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 11, 2009 10:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But...but I preferred Metallica's first album

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 10:33 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Bailey should enter to

the part of “Four Horsemen”

where IdiotFace (I loathe Hetfield even more than I loathe the White Sox, which is a lot!)

says “Choose your fate and die!”

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Nov 11, 2009 1:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I remember when Bobby Crosby was

a SS controlled for 6 years.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 11, 2009 11:11 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ah June 2005 was a very good month.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 1:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Strange math

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Nov 11, 2009 8:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I've been watching NUMB3RS

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 12, 2009 8:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

the DRaysBay guys

see relievers as fungible (as does the Rays’ front office), and thus almost any trade involving a useful piece for a reliever will be frowned upon there.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Nov 11, 2009 9:18 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

See, there's that Fungible word again

Brickhaus, I interpret your statement as: “DRaysBay guys see relievers as A DIME A DOZEN.” And therefore can be gotten on the cheap.

As was explained to me in another thread, I thought fungible meant relievers were not rare, they had a fairly determinable value, and could be used as sort of a universally accepted baseball currency. In other words, one could easily find 2 WAR of relievers, or 6 WAR of relievers, or whatever you needed, but you would have to pay their worth.

Your DRaysBay statement seems to say that the Rays think good relievers are not so much fungible as COMMON. Conversely, they seem to think that useful position players are actually more rare (I agree) and worth more than what their WAR indicates ( I have no idea).

I’m not criticising. I actually agree with what I think you meant, that Rays think relievers can be found for peanuts, and are not worth trading for. And I think I sort of disagree with that. As I said in another post, if good relievers were a dime a dozen, why do some major league bullpens suck?

by redtopcowboy on Nov 11, 2009 10:18 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

And in particular, why does the Rays bullpen suck?

Answer is, of course, “because they never put many resources into building it.” Well, that’s not a complete answer, but the second half appears to be that they just aren’t very good at recognizing scrap-heap candidates.

It’s the whole point of the title of this piece: comparative advantage. The classic example is wine and wool. England is great at making wool, not so great at making wine. Portugal is the opposite. Through trade, both countries end up better off, with England specializing on wool and Portugal on wine. Wool, in this case, being relief pitchers, and wine being infielders (or outfielders, but the A’s don’t really need those).

The fact that wine is, in a vacuum, worth more than wool is pretty irrelevant. That just means you need more wool to make it an even trade.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 11:07 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So you're saying Weurtz and a sport coat for Brignac?

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 11, 2009 12:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm thinking a three-piece suit might be required

The A’s should do it, though. Billy’s never been much of a clothes-horse anyway.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 1:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah.

We’re not selling trading jeans, here.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 11, 2009 1:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Fungibility

I think when it was first observed that relief pitchers are fungible, the observer really did mean fungible. But now when it gets repeated as mantra people have gotten lazy and lost track of the true meaning of the word. When people say it now, they mostly just mean that relief pitchers aren’t worth much. Both claims are part right and part wrong, but I think the fungible label is more accurate than the worthless one.

Another issue with relief pitchers is they don’t hold their value as reliably. To a greater extent than with other positions, a reliever who is awesome this year could turn into crap next year, or a reliever who is mediocre this year could turn into awesome next year. That means that if you give up good value for an “established” reliever (eg, Billy Koch, Michael Wuertz), there’s a better than usual chance it won’t work out for you. You may do better to just gather up a bucketful of OK relievers and then wait to see which ones turn out good.

Obviously this doesn’t work out all the time, or even most of the time, and it requires some skill in sifting through the bucket, but there’s enough of it that it works better with relievers than with other positions. This property, by the way, is not characteristic of fungibility.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 11, 2009 11:23 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I always thought "fungibility"

was the possibility of scoring mushrooms. Here, I’ll put it in a sentence.

“I heard the liberty caps are in season. Is there any fungibility in this neighborhood?”

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Nov 11, 2009 1:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll speed things up by giving you any Rays fan/employee's reaction to that suggestion:

He was basically the AL MVP this year and you’re suggesting they trade him for a good relief pitcher.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 5:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

perhaps

Zobrist is a bit better than I realized. Perhaps Bailey + Ken Macha + Jeremy Giambi ….

by reggiejax on Nov 10, 2009 7:25 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Agreed TB is perfect trading partner, however

I would like to see the As make a major splash …

Bailey/Donaldson/HRod for Bossman Junior

TB gets cheap proven closer to lock down back end of bullpen 2 yrs away from arb.
TB gets offensive catching prospect in upper minors
TB gets a fireballing RP to slot into bullpen

TB slots top prospect Desmond Jennings into CF and free’s up payroll from the raise BJ would get.

A’s get an offensive CF with enough pop to slot into corner if Raj proves 2nd half was for real.

A lot to give up but the A’s get that offensive bat they lack with GG D, with exceptional speed. They trade from a position of strength and can have Wuertz, Devine, Ziggy or even try and resign Duke to help. Other 2 have capable players already in front of them.

An OF of BJ, Raj, Sweeney gives the A’s 3 CF quality guys while also not adding to much payroll to allow them to still shop for another bat and arm keeping payroll at 50M.

by Bud Light on Nov 10, 2009 7:56 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

But Tampa isn’t dumb.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 10, 2009 8:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There are two problems with Upton

One is health. The A’s have a terrible track record with injury-prone outfielders and Upton’s had issues which have seemingly damaged his ability to hit at a high level.

The other is that he’s already made it fairly clear that he’s not interested in signing any kind of long-term extension. He’s doing his time until free agency and then it’s adios, amigos.

[Actually, there’s sort of a third problem which is roster-specific: Why give up so much to upgrade from Scott Hairston? How much better is Upton? A win, maybe 2? Seems like that might well be canceled out by the expenditure of the other pieces.]

I think he’s kind of overrated at this point and thus that this deal would be plenty fair, but I’m sure the Rays think otherwise, so I didn’t bother discussing him.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 8:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

PT your FA comment

is exactly why I think the Rays would entertain offers. They don’t want to pay him big bucks when he isnt in the long term plans. However the A’s get him for 3 more years and can build an offense around him as the young sluggers get used to MLB pitching.

TB has a MLB ready player ready to take his spot, and can plug Bailey into the closer role from day 1. Next two years he costs league minimum, along with 3 yrs of Desmond Jennings.

Although Hairston is also in house I firmly believe BJ can be a top flight star, although somewhat of an injury risk. Having him along with Sweeney and Raj gives the A’s depth, something we all know is mandatory with them.

by Bud Light on Nov 10, 2009 9:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Shrug

Mike Cameron’s available, probably better, and only costs money. Marlon Byrd’s available, might be better, and costs even less money.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 10, 2009 9:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You'd really trade BJ for Cameron or Byrd? Really?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 2:05 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't "trade BJ Upton for them", because they are free agents, who definitionally have zero value, while Upton is not, and has actual value

However, if I had a choice in a vacuum of one year of one of them, and money was no object, I would not choose B.J. Upton.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 11:11 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Your honor my client, ak_A, requests a recess until tomorrow evening

so he can further study the voluminous exhibit AN.

alaska A residing in northern Idaho.

by ak_A on Nov 10, 2009 8:43 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Come to my school -- we have a recess every morning!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 10, 2009 9:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What, isn't "today" Nov 11th a holiday?

so there won’t be a recess Wednesday morning.

"It is the mark of a truly intelligent person to be moved by statistics. " GB Shaw

by One won lost won on Nov 10, 2009 9:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No holiday for us

We celebrate Columbus discovering Asiamerica but not our veterans. Although we will fly all the 7th graders at half-mast tomorrow, but that’s more of a hazing thing than anything else.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 10, 2009 9:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe you could read them this piece in commemoration

saw this three days ago:
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/armistice.htm

"It is the mark of a truly intelligent person to be moved by statistics. " GB Shaw

by One won lost won on Nov 10, 2009 9:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

must post pictures

I’m imagining some sort of Nelson Muntz gag going on here

"Do I talk to myself? No, I just remind myself of what I'm trying to do. You know, I never answer myself so how can I be talking to myself?" - Rickey

by cuppingmaster on Nov 10, 2009 10:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks Paul Thomas for the erudite discussion

First your write-up, then the back and forth, then the bear picture. All very entertaining and welcome…somewhat akin to checking in for one’s flight, then getting upgraded to First Class.

Smilin’ all the way!

"It is the mark of a truly intelligent person to be moved by statistics. " GB Shaw

by One won lost won on Nov 10, 2009 9:47 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Many props to PT.

This discussion was highly entertaining and informative. I appreciate all the hard work you put into this and found it very enlightening. The exchanges were also informative. Nice stuff for an an A’s fan to peruse on a chilly November morning!

Thank you!

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Nov 11, 2009 6:30 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

So I guess this means that this post will be lame in a few years

when we have global-warming-induced 80-degree November mornings instead.

Which is probably true.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 11:19 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Global warming =/= local warming.

The issue is not warming per se but disequilibrium. When a complicated but stable system gets knocked out of whack, the factors will bounce all over the place until they find a new equilibrium which could be vastly different from the original.

To imagine that “global warming” (an unfortunate term, but too late to change it now) means essentially the same as before but everyone is uniformly 5 to 10 degrees warmer is to fundamentally misunderstand the issue. Any given place might get warmer or colder, wetter or dryer, and it might be a small change or an extreme one. For that matter, the end result could be that the whole planet is thrown into a severe ice age.

In short, the problem is not that the weather is warmer, but rather that the entire system has been destabilized, and destabilization can accelerate beyond our ability to adapt.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 11, 2009 11:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Joke, dude

It’s a joke.

Although I think the Bay Area is one of the areas which is actually predicted to get warmer.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 1:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I know.

I’m in pedagogue mode today. Can’t resist the urge to pontificate educate.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 11, 2009 2:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

PEDO-WHAT?/???

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 11, 2009 2:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 2:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

My motivation is my love

for young people. I’m a giver.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 11, 2009 4:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not lame at all.

Because if we have 80 degree Novembers, then we can tack on another 30 games to the regular season.

I’m for it.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Nov 11, 2009 2:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Or they could play the WS when there isn't a chance of snow.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 2:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

live in Arizona, dude

hells to the no!!!!

"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 11, 2009 8:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's actually rather nice....

from November through April. After that, it would be cooler living on the surface of the sun.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Nov 11, 2009 8:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

haha sadly i now know what that's like.

"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 11, 2009 8:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well done

Couple things:

- Trade #1 is horrid.

- I’d do Trade #2 in a heartbeat, only because of McGee’s potential

- I really hope John Meloan isn’t in our bullpen

- S-Rod ain’t that good + he’s redundant

- Sign a 1-Year Stop-Gap 3B (Glaus)

- Sign/Trade for a Veteran Starting Pitcher

by Colorado Fan on Nov 11, 2009 7:35 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I agree with this post

Also I think a clear upgrade to Pennington (Escobar or Hardy) would be good. That’s pretty much all I would want to trade for.

RIVER CATS: AAA CHAMPS!

by niallmack on Nov 11, 2009 11:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why do you consider Hardy a clear upgrade and Rodriguez not?

I’d like to see someone make an attempt to justify Hardy over Rodriguez, I really would. It’s not going to be easy.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 11:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

94 OPS+ from a plus defender at SS, vs an 89 OPS+ from an average defender at 2B/3B

How that?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 1:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hardy is under contract for two years in which he is paid actual money

Rodriguez, 6 years, 3 at the minimum.

Hardy would have to be like five times as good as Rodriguez to justify that switch.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 1:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Only if your replacement level was really low. If you believe Rodriguez is

basically replacement level, which his projection looks like it is, and Hardy is maybe 2.5 WAR, then you could control Rodriguez for 100 years and it wouldn’t matter.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 2:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

An 89 OPS+ at 3B is nowhere close to replacement level

Mark Teahen had a 90 in 2008, and scored 8.5 runs below average that year.

A player who hit for that line with average 3B defense over say 140 games would be worth about 1.5 WAR.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 2:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You do realize that Teahen had a 0.1 WAR that year.

If you account for the fact that he was -5 runs defensively, he was probably about a 0.6 WAR player. That’s pretty close to replacement. It’s certainly not a starting caliber 3B.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 3:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I mean a 0.6 WAR player had he hypothetically been a 0 defender

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 3:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Dude

Teahen was playing right field. -6.6 position score instead of +2 or thereabouts.

Position. It matters. A lot.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 3:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I see your point.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 3:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure it is

Let’s just do a ballpark estimate of their worth assuming they each would get 600 PAs at SS. Both would get 20 runs for replacement. Both would get 7.5 runs positional. Defensively, Hardy is a near lock to get 8-10 runs if he gets 600 PAs and the corresponding number of defensive games. Total Zone sees Rodriguez as about an average fielder in the minors. Let’s be generous to Rodriguez and say there’s a win’s difference between his and Hardy’s defense.

That brings us to offense. Using (2*OBP+SLG)/3 to estimate wOBA, Rodriguez’s MLE suggests around a .367 wOBA. Using the same formula for a Hardy Marcel (simply (5*2009OBP+4*2008OBP+3*2007OBP)/12 to calculate OBP and similar for slugging) gives us a.355 wOBA. Now those numbers are not the same as the wOBA you see on Fangraphs. The 2009 average wOBA based on that formula was .361. Interestingly, that league average is directly in between Hardy and Rodriguez’s numbers. That means Rodriguez projects to be worth around 3 wRAA and Hardy -3. Then adding in defense, Hardy projects ~7 runs better than Rodriguez.

This leads to two factors which completely tip the scales in Hardy’s favor. First, upside. There’s some doubt that Rodriguez can fulfill his MLE. His SSS major league numbers are very iffy. Hardy has proven he can wOBA .355 (Fangraphs formula) at the major league level. It’s hard to make a defensive projection, but Hardy’s UZRs have ranged from 8.8 to 16.7 the last three years. Rodriguez has scouts questioning his defense and has OK TZ numbers. Given the A’s have a GB inducing staff, I’d take the defensive whiz. The second factor is cost. Hardy was cheap to acquire. All it took was a <1 WAR CF with 5 years of club control (Let’s say around 10 to be generous). Rodriguez looks to cost 15 in your proposal.

And after all that, I’ll I’m doing is crying over spilled milk. I wouldn’t have to do this if Billy had simply acquired Hardy…

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Nov 11, 2009 1:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You're ignoring service time though.

I’ll take 6 years of Rodriguez over 2 years of Hardy.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 11, 2009 2:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Then you believe Rodriguez is substantially better than Replacement Level

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 2:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe Rodriguez could out-produce Hardy with 6 years o' playing time

But the dream scenario for the A’s has Wallace and Green and Cardenas (or Weeks) at 3B, SS and 2B respectively… all of whom look to have higher upsides than Rodriguez. That pushes him back to the bench, so he doesn’t get the playing time to end up out-performing Hardy’s 2 years.

Unless, of course, you want the A’s top prospects to fail. Then you get your Sean Rodriguez wish.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 11, 2009 8:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Uh, what?

Rodriguez has potential 30 HR power from an infield position, with good plate discipline.

Whatever else you may say about him by comparison to Wallace, Green, Weeks and Cardenas, particularly in the area of bust risk, it is very difficult to contend that he has lower upside. I’ll spot you Wallace, but the others? Not buying it at all.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 11:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So you're saying that Rodriguez has higher upside than

Green, Weeks and Cardenas. That his all-around game is superior to the middle infield prospects I mentioned?

That is an extremely aggressive stance to take on Rodriguez, and one that stands apart from the reference materials I have read. Which doesn’t mean you’re wrong. He struck out 122 times in 385 at bats in AAA, that much lack of contact worries me especially since his BB number (55) isn’t exactly Custian. So I wouldn’t go so far as to say his he has good plate discipline, but he can draw a walk and has legit 20+ HR pop. Will he make enough contact? The scouting reports on his defense are generally meh and as he heads into his age 25 season he doesn’t have a lot of projection left in him.

Personally, I’d need more info before I’d take him heads up over any of Green, Weeks or Cardenas. And I find it interesting that your trade proposal to acquire such a prize involves a Catcher who its debatable may not be able to stay behind the plate, a RP pitcher with a history of back problems, is recovering from TJ surgery AND is arbitration eligible and a 28 year old relief arm with all of 31 big league innings under his belt. That package seems rather underwhelming in light of the esteem you hold Rodriguez in.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 12, 2009 1:26 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If that's true, then they should trade Weeks or Cardenas for Rodriguez

Rays would likely jump at that.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 12, 2009 8:12 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Cardenas is better than Rodriguez

even though he has lower upside.

Yes, I know this is a shocking, appalling concept to you, but there it is.

I’d deal Weeks for him though. Don’t think the Rays would. Again it will never happen because again it’s completely zero-sum.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 12, 2009 10:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Shocking and appalling indeed.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 12, 2009 11:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, yeah,

if you make ungenerous characterizations of their ability and generous characterizations of Rodriguez’s ability, of course the trade is going to look “off.” Same will happen if you reverse the process.

I have Donaldson at about the A’s #7 prospect. If Rodriguez were to enter the system (and be eligible, which he isn’t), I’d place him at #4. I think Devine and Gray, who fill an immediate major league need for relief pitchers with a high-upside closer candidate and a solid middle relief pitcher to backstop him, fill in the gap between the two valuations.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 12, 2009 10:57 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Then I think you way over-rate Rodriguez.

Of course, I also have a very different opinion of Donaldson then you and I think it would be easy for a competent GM to turn the inclusion of Devine into a negative for the Rays. I guess if both teams felt exactly like you do about both players (or, I guess, how I feel about both would work) then there is the basis of a potential deal.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 12, 2009 1:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You're missing the point here, I think

The point isn’t ultimately to argue for two particular trade proposals. If you think that another trade fits the needs of the respective teams better/is better balanced/whatever, great— it’s more fodder for discussion.

The real problematic issue here is valuing the prospects correctly. Once you do that, putting the pieces together isn’t that hard. I hope that I’ve at least showed, with Points 1-3, that the two teams are well fitted for a trade because they have corresponding strengths and weaknesses.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 12, 2009 3:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Really. I'm missing the point?

On the surface the A’s and Rays appear to be ideal trading partners. When you get to naming specific players things aren’t so clear and controversy ensues.

Think I got the point covered, but thanks for caring.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 12, 2009 5:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It should be 1.7x OBP which induces error favorable to Rodriguez

His wOBA calculated that way with the MLE PT listed above is .335. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 2:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hardy is not available for a Carlos Gomez anymore

If indeed there was an opportunity there at one point, it’s now disappeared. It is, as you point out, not effective to cry over spilled milk.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 2:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

More on catchers

If I’m the Rays, the guy I want is Suzuki, not Powell/Recker/Donaldson. They have a real shot at winning right away, whereas we don’t. I think if a trade includes a catching piece, the Rays would want the sure thing, not the maybes. It will be on the A’s to assume the risk that all of the (currently) lesser catching pieces don’t work out. It might work out better for the A’s, too, since Zook should yield a significantly better return than any of those guys.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Nov 11, 2009 11:39 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

A deal centered around Kurt Suzuki

could be a “fuckin’ A” trade in the original sense of the phrase.

In recent years people have demeaned that term by using it to mean a trade where one GM seemed to swindle the other, even on a petty deal, but what it used to mean is any trade — whether fair or not, but probably fair — that makes you say “Fuckin’ A, I can’t believe they actually traded those guys!”

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 11, 2009 11:47 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Fuckin’ A trades have become fungible.

A B -3X = Swedish girls like chocolate @('.')@

by monkeyball on Nov 11, 2009 12:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We have a winner!

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Nov 11, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps

but it wouldn’t be the first time. Ramon Hernandez was jettisoned in extremely similar fashion.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Nov 11, 2009 1:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That was mostly to get ride of TLong though.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 1:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Kotsay was better anyway.

I loved that trade.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 11, 2009 1:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Would you have prefered to keep hernandez and skip Jason Kendall/Damian Miller? I say yes.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 1:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I say yes, too.

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Nov 11, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I liked the Kotsay trade. The extension....not so much.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 1:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No, not really.

Sure, Kendall sucked, but Miller was average-ish for a season AND netted the pick that become Travis Buck.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 11, 2009 1:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

and boy didn't Travis Buck really blow the soxs off of the MLB!

yeah hes a 4th OFer.

Miller sucked with the bat Kendall was terrible.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 1:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Miller didn't suck with the bat.

At least, not the single season he was with Oakland (.326 wOBA)

Also, you were a lot more fun before you were all like “working” and shit, and did stuff like spellcheck and use punctuation. WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DFA I USED TO KNOW, ALL DOWN IN HIS MOM’S BASEMENT AND SHIT????

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 11, 2009 2:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You know what you are right,

probably about both. Though I deny ever spelling anything right.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 2:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I also had an inherent dislike for Hernandez.

I mean, blocking the fucking plate is part of being a catcher, you nancyboy. DO IT MOAR.

He never listened :(

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 11, 2009 2:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That is fine.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 2:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

but his hair was cool! It changed colors like every week.

(sorry, I don’t know how I ended up in a trade thread… I’ll leave now…)

by whiteshoes40 on Nov 11, 2009 7:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ya I liked him too. Especially after the bunt.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 12, 2009 8:12 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If so

who else might the A’s have that they could also get rid of this way?

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Nov 11, 2009 1:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The A's don't really have that kind of contract anymore.

there really is no formerly young and promising player who was signed to a extension to buy out arby that became disgruntled and sucks on the team right now.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 1:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, Croz is gone, thank God.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Nov 11, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I hope he has a good year next year in Mexico or Korea.

He might even hit .250 in one of those leagues!

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Nov 11, 2009 1:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

AVG or BAC?

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Nov 11, 2009 1:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes!

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Nov 11, 2009 1:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

OBP

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Nov 11, 2009 8:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sort of different

Ramon Hernandez had already had his contract extended. When we traded him, I think he was getting around $4 million with two years on the contract. Something like that. Suzuki is still dirt cheap until … hmm, when does he hit free agency anyway?

Even so, Hernandez for Kotsay was still a mild shocker. It’s just that in those days Billy was doing so much crazy shit it seemed mild in comparison.

I assume if Suzuki is on our side of the package then the Tampa side will be something bigger, too, like Bartlett, which is really what I was thinking would make it “fuckin’ A”. If we just trade Suzuki for a pile of prospects then that’s “fuckin’ A” in a different way. (In which case the comparison would be Lilly-for-Kielty…)

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 11, 2009 3:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Given the high proven value of zooks

and his controlled cost for a significant portion of time, the Rays would have to give up quite a bit for him.

I’m not good trade scenarios but I’d wonder if anyone else would like to take a stab at a “reasonable” Kurt Suzuki trade to any party, not just the rays.

by eastbayexpat on Nov 11, 2009 12:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's hard to come up with.

He had the 5th highest WAR out of all catchers in baseball last season and isn’t arby eligible until after the 2010 season.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 11, 2009 1:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Probably higher when you consider his defensive rep.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 1:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

True

But I wouldn’t trade a 3 WAR catcher for a 3 WAR outfielder, for instance. There are a hell of a lot more 3 WAR outfielders.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 11, 2009 1:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well if that 3 WAR catcher is bad behind the dish then you should do it.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's because there are 3 times as many OF and "regular" catchers play less than regular OF

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 1:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess you should separate between CF and Corner OF too

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 11, 2009 1:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I am reminded suddenly of BtB's thread

Given Evan Longoria’s current contract, is it remotely possible to craft a fair trade for him?

by eastbayexpat on Nov 11, 2009 2:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 2:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You could start with Matt Wieters and Stephen Strasburg

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 2:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes.

Just highly impractical.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Nov 11, 2009 8:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

"Today, Mayor Bloomberg announced that he was buying the State of Florida"

“In a related issue, he also announced the forced repatriation of certain ‘high value’ Floridians to New York City. This list includes…”

Yeah, that’s how I can see it going down

by bobnothing on Nov 11, 2009 9:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Speaking of BtB,

Paul, you got mentioned in a frontpage links article over at Beyond the Boxscore.

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/11/11/1126025/assorted-links

No, there's no light,
in the darkest of your furthest reaches.

by danmerqury on Nov 11, 2009 9:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I saw that

I might have been slightly less half-assed about my projection scheme if I knew someone outside the blog was actually going to take notice…

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 11:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No doubt.

I’m just trying to look at this from the Rays perspective. Maybe the cost would be too outrageous, but Suzuki is far more desirable to them. Powell, I suppose, would be valuable too, but does anyone really believe his knees would hold up as a full time catcher?

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Nov 11, 2009 1:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You know, with some load bearing duct tape,

they just might.

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Nov 11, 2009 1:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It'd certainly be exciting

I could see something like Suzuki + Ziegler for Hellickson/Rodriguez/Joyce going down.

Can’t really see it actually happening though. I feel like the Rays wouldn’t bother asking about Suzuki because they already know it’s not happening.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 1:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If there's one guy in the league

I’d never be afraid to ask about a player, it’s Billy Beane.

It really depends on how much they want to win next year. Suzuki is about as good a catching upgrade as they can get, and he fits their budget.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Nov 11, 2009 1:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why would we want Matt Joyce?

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 11, 2009 1:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know, I was just trying to come up with a third piece not named Jennings

I don’t really think that package would get it done, to be honest, even if it might be fair in a vacuum.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 1:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

bravo

a great analysis of some potential trade scenarios. You make some outstanding points. Are there any other teams out there with a similar need (as the Rays) for catching? What about trading Suzuki? He’s still cheap for a couple more years and could fetch bigger fish, and given that the A’s seem committed to “full rebuilding” mode, maybe they try making Powell and eventually Donaldson THEIR answer at catcher and pick up some talent for Suzuki – thoughts?

by oakballnack on Nov 11, 2009 12:33 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Suzuki, Davis and Bailey for Upton, Navarro and Hellickson

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 1:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I can't figure out what the point of this would be

It’s totally zero-sum.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 1:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

A's get upside, Rays get 2010 performance at positions of need.

But yeah, it is basically pointless to suggest something that will never happen

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 2:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The trade would itself be pointless

There’s no surplus value in exchanging players at the same positions. If either side gains, it’s entirely at the expense of the other side.

Also, Dioner Navarro sucks.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 3:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There is surplus value if the teams are at different points in the success cycle

And yes, Navarro does suck. I’d rather just sign Zaun in that instance.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 3:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, as far as I can tell, the Davis/Suzuki for Upton/Navarro part of the deal

is almost completely zero-sum, because those guys are all arbitration-eligibles. (Actually, I think the Rays guys become free agents a year sooner than their A’s counterparts.) I guess Bailey for Hellickson is sort of a deferral of assets, but… why not just suggest that instead of conflating it with the weird swapping-Cs-and-CFs thing?

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 3:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Because Upton is actually much more awesome than you're suggesting.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 11, 2009 3:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

agreed

I don’t see why the A’s would trade for another catcher that is worse than their in house options. I guess I’m wondering more about places like Kansas City – Suzuki for Gordon type deal. What about Suzuki to the Padres – they need a good catcher, right?

by oakballnack on Nov 11, 2009 3:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Suzuki for Gordon would not be a good trade.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 11, 2009 3:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

well

there would obviously have to be other players involved, I’m just trying to think of other teams that could use a catcher that have excess IF’s. The Gordon idea is even less likely considering the Royals already dealt Teahen.

by oakballnack on Nov 12, 2009 8:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think the A's are looking to move any additional players at this time

I think it’s going to be a pretty quiet offseason.

As I mentioned above, I could theoretically see a trade of Suzuki but there would have to be some incredible pieces coming back. On the Rays, that means at least one and maybe two of Hellickson/Davis/Jennings and some other goodies as well.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 1:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Trade Construction 101

I have just spent a few minutes reading PT’s post on DBayRays and another post there, both about possible BAYs/As trades to improve both teams. PT really, really tried to offer some fair assessments of talent, what was good for both teams, etc. Also, grover sounded like a professor explaining how trades are constructed, what to consider, and what needs both teams have. After several tries at it, I think grover got through to a couple of Rays fans.

But not many. By and large, DBayRays view a good trade as one that totally screws the other team. Not much to work with there.

by redtopcowboy on Nov 11, 2009 1:50 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Are the Rays open to trading though?

I honestly think S-Rod is taking over from Bartlett, they wouldnt just let Kazmir go like that if they werent completely enamored with Rodriguez. Brignac is clearly a worrisome prospect for them, hence the addition of Rodriguez. Aybar is the only name Id move if I were them.

I found it fascinating that the Tigers and Reds essentially put their entire teams up for trade offers over the last 2 days. How do those teams match up with us? Inge was just put up on the trading block, he’s outstanding with glove, but terrible at hitting. Rolen maybe? Just curious as it looks like those teams want to shed money, can we nontender Cust for Mig-Cab’s giant contract? He’s a HOF quality hitter I wouldnt mind sinking all our money into, its not like we have any real contracts going right now, and have absurd amounts of young players and prospects coming up, that we are 5 years away from having to deal with

by PL78 on Nov 11, 2009 5:56 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

(im dreaming about mig-cab, obviously)

just in case it wasnt obvious. But we are in a position to take on some money, just a thought…

by PL78 on Nov 11, 2009 6:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Inge wouldn't be bad, if he wasn't going to cost much in prospects.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 11, 2009 6:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Um

If they’re “worried” about Brignac, why would they not want to move him for catching and/or relief help? The theory of this post is that they can pick one of him and Rodriguez and then trade the other one.

Aybar’s not worth much, bench players of his ilk are a dime a dozen.

Cabrera’s not going anywhere. He’s their franchise guy at this point. The pieces they’ll be trying to sell off are Ordonez, Inge, Guillen, Bonderman, maybe Laird. Although Ordonez and Guillen might be unmovable because they have 10-and-5 no trade protection.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 11:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

They're also rumoured to be "listening" for Granderson. I'd take him.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 12, 2009 8:14 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Granderson

doesn’t make a lot of sense for us, considering we already have a glut of OFers in the system, and he’s looking more and more like an expensive platoon type guy these days. That said, I love the guy – great guy.

by oakballnack on Nov 12, 2009 8:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I can think of several reasons why getting Granderson

would be problematic, but a glut of OFers isn’t one of them. A glut of mediocre outfielders is easily solved, you just cut a few. If we do somehow obtain Granderson and it results in “too many outfielders”, how hard is it to just cut Buck and/or Carson? Problem solved. Or better yet, don’t cut them, and just accept that the supposed glut really isn’t a bad thing.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 12, 2009 10:34 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Plus, Granderson hits for power and plays a good CF,

and the former isn’t redundant with anyone we have, the latter only with Rajai Davis — who may or may be any good at all.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 13, 2009 8:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Eh

Is he going to come cheaper than Swisher sold for? Because that required two potential ace pitchers and a decent outfield prospect.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 12, 2009 11:01 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sweeney, Faustino and Gio might actually do it.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 12, 2009 11:18 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I find that exceptionally unlikely

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 12, 2009 11:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, but Beane never fails to surprise.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 12, 2009 12:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Apparently I do.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 12, 2009 11:19 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

thats weird

would you give up actual value for a glorified platoon man with declining defense though?

Id rather Raj Davis, but that’s just me.

by PL78 on Nov 12, 2009 12:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Granderson could be that, or he could be the A's best player....or I guess both

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 12, 2009 12:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You'd rather have Raj Davis than Curtis Granderson?

Over the last 4 years, Granderson has averaged 4.6 WAR. In 2009 Raj was worth 3.7. In other words, Granderson is better than Raj even if you believe 2009 is Davis’ true talent level. Which I don’t.

Sure, Granderson has a bit of a problem against lefties. Davis had a problem against ALL major league pitchers until 2009.

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Nov 12, 2009 1:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Platooning the two of them would actually make a pretty good CF situation

… if the A’s were to suddenly throw caution aside and acquire him, of course.

I have trouble thinking of a trade for him that wouldn’t basically reverse everything the A’s have done in the last 3 years though. And it’s a bit late for that now. I think you have to see the rebuilding process through at this point.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 12, 2009 3:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Davis never was allowed to play everyday until 2009

Fact: players who play everyday in the minors dont often adjust well to the bigs when brought up as a bench player. Not only are they seeing better opposition, but they dont have a chance to get a feel for the game, see: Cunningham, Aaron for a nice example of this happening right now.

Dont really appreciate the cherry picked stats either: last year Davis was worth 3.7 WAR, Granderson 3.4 and Granderson had almost 300 (!) more PA’s. Even if Davis doesnt play like he did in 09, he’s a very good bet to have a better year than Granderson. Grandersons WAR has been helped by never getting hurt and his beastly 07, which appears to be a severe outlier year. Grandersons numbers look to have peaked and are in regression, I see no problem in thinking that Davis will outperform Granderson over the next 1-3 years.

I dont see any reason at all to acquire Granderson unless its for very little. The way Granderson cannot hit lefties is almost a joke at this point, its not long until he becomes an irrelevant big leaguer.

by PL78 on Nov 12, 2009 4:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Stop. Now.

The odds are ridiculousy in favor of Granderson being better than Davis, although his struggles with lefties last year is a concern. You want to argue that Davis is a more cost-efficient option? You could do that. Flat out better? The numbers don’t support your side.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 12, 2009 5:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Every time someone posts something about players having "peaked,"

God infects a kitten with syphilis.

The guy’s 28 and athletic as all get out. I don’t think his career is exactly over yet.

I mean, he’s actually younger than Rajai Davis. I agree that he should under no circumstances ever be allowed to start against a lefthanded pitcher, but most teams can arrange their rosters in such a way that that’s not much of a problem.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 12, 2009 7:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Basically all platoons aren't equal

Granderson is about 3x as useful as a platoon player as Hairston is, simply because of which side of home plate he sets up at to hit.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 13, 2009 8:09 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

the concept of depth?

Brignac was their guy for years, all over baseball we heard about the Longoria-Brignac left side that was going to anchor the team for 6+ years, now Brignac’s career has stuttered, its good GMing to bring in a guy to challenge him and perhaps replace him.

Im not saying Brignac wont be dealt, but I dont see it happening until Rodriguez forces the issue.

by PL78 on Nov 12, 2009 11:19 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This has been amazing, PT.

My head’s a-whirl with thinking about the possibilities. Its posts like these that help me know this team, and baseball in general, better.

I never considered taking him out. I had a commitment to his heart. - Johnny King

by lynnzgal on Nov 11, 2009 8:19 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Great

That’s always the hope!

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2009 11:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well now this thread is obsolete

the A’s have interest in Jamey Carroll!!!!

"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 12, 2009 7:58 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

When can I order advance playoff tickets?

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 12, 2009 8:42 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

as soon as we sign Jennie Finch!

On a serious note,

is trying to sign Ben Sheets a bad idea?

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 12, 2009 8:45 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought Jennie Finch

was a serious note, she has a great arm, and I think would really help attendance!

by el generico on Nov 12, 2009 9:25 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

She has arms?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 12, 2009 11:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The Internet thinks so

There are rumors to that effect, anyway. I admit that I don’t think her arms are what will draw the crowds to the stadium.

by el generico on Nov 13, 2009 10:13 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Seriously, how would a fastpitch softball pitcher fare in MLB?

You always hear people say that a 70 mph softball pitch is the equivalent of 100 mph regular pitch due to the movement, but it’s hard to believe that’s really true. If it is, wouldn’t someone have tried it by now (whether male or female).

Or is there something in the MLB rules that you can’t use that motion?

I realize that professional baseball is conservative in its habits, but if that windmill-like softball pitch really is as good as they say, I should think it would catch on.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 13, 2009 1:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That 70mph softball pitch is equivalent to a 100mph regular pitch

because the softball player is 45 feet away, and not 60 feet, 6 inches.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 13, 2009 2:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

This

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Nov 13, 2009 4:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ah, that would certainly explain it then.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 13, 2009 10:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Rules as well

Not to dispute the points made already about the closer distance, but I believe MLB does have a rule about pitching overhand. Having just recently visited the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, there is a section about how the game has changed, and pitching in the early days (pre-1888 or some such) was underhand, and the batter could request the location of the pitch. We’ve really gotten away from tradition these days. . .

by el generico on Nov 13, 2009 4:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Brad Ziegler likes to go old school then.

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 13, 2009 5:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Bobby Crosby was still requesting "not low and outside"

for the better part of 3 years. He dad musthave told him about the rules in his day.

by Future Ed on Nov 16, 2009 3:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Salt Lake City groupies

“if chicks really do dig the longball, the Salt Lake Bees’ home park must be quite the dating opportunity”

Dude, you must not understand Mormon culture to be making a statement like that…SLC is not really a thriving groupie hotspot.

Great blog, though!

by tjr800 on Nov 12, 2009 9:58 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Uh oh, someone is challenging me

for the title of taking rhetorical comments literally.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 12, 2009 10:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The words "title" or "challenge" appear nowhere in tjr800's post.

You must be mistaken

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 12, 2009 11:22 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow, first David Ricardo, now Alfred Marshall...

I’m not actually a dead economist, I just play one on TV.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 12, 2009 3:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I am still mind boggled that Zobrist was your 2009 offensive WAR leader...

above Albert Pujols. W T F…mate.

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 12, 2009 7:25 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Stellar defense + positional adjustment

Yeah, it’s really surprising.

No, there's no light,
in the darkest of your furthest reaches.

by danmerqury on Nov 12, 2009 9:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

well having a fluke lucky good year is one thing

being better than everyone else, when you’ve never even come close to being that good…entirely something else.

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 13, 2009 4:43 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

How does Grant Green project in 2010?

Ive been hearing some pretty crazy things about him, like he’s already in our top 3 prospects and could blaze through the system pretty fast.

Does anyone think going after Omar Vizquel is an option? I say this because If Pennington sucks and Green goes through the minors as fast if not faster than expected Omar could mentor both and/or cover if one or the other stink so badly they have to get sent down. Im not saying Green should start in the majors but could he come up in say, July and reap the benefits of having a living legend show him the ropes? Could be a good thing, no?

by PL78 on Nov 13, 2009 3:52 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Dream on

He projects at “we didn’t even bother to project this guy because the notion of him playing in the majors next season is completely ludicrous.” This is actually what it shows when you look up his projection at fangraphs.

OK, that’s a lie. But it might as well be there.

Vizquel says he wants to play for a high-profile team, so that pretty much rules out Oakland.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 13, 2009 4:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Grant Green is a promising prospect,

but the idea of him in the majors by next July is completely nuts. If he plays in Oakland in 2011 that will still be pretty fast.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 13, 2009 10:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

but but but

what if he’s the next ryan zimmerman???

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 13, 2009 11:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He isn't.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 13, 2009 11:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

Gordon Beckham is a far better comparison!

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Nov 14, 2009 2:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

and he actually played the year he was drafted.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 14, 2009 11:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

quick thoughts

I think trade 2 would be great for the A’s, but I’m not so sure that the Rays would deal McGee yet. I like Brignac, though, and think he would make a fine shortstop.

I’m not as big on Sean R as Paul is, but the logic for the deal is spot on.

Not a Rays fan, but personally, I think they are going to end up simply stacking their depth chart and finding stopgap pen options, unless they are able to move Bartlett. If not, I think they’ll keep Brignac as the backup MI and ship Sean Rodriguez to Durham and wait things out a bit.

by toonsterwu on Nov 14, 2009 1:14 AM PST reply actions   0 recs


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