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Billy Ball, Revisited

Chris Jaffe over at The Hardball Times has a book coming out soon titled "Evaluating Baseball's Managers" that stretches back into baseball's history for what looks like a comprehensive look at managing over about a 130-year period.

(Harry Pavlidis also has a piece up today on Andrew Bailey, but this post is going to be about Billy Martin.)

In the excerpt Jaffe shares today he summarizes all of what made Martin the manager he was, detailing the ways he got each of his teams to play along with the short life span he had with each of them.  If there was ever a manager who ran things his own way, Martin was that guy.

Highlights of the excerpt include making an immediate impact with the Minnesota Twins in aggressively stealing home to not only instill a specific mentality in his team, but also to make his opponents play wondering what they'd do next. In one game, both Cesar Tovar and Rod Carew stole home in the same inning and Martin had a penchant for trying the triple steal.  At one point they basically made the A's look silly in an early July series that moved the Twins into first place to stay, his style helping cause the A's to also beat themselves with mistakes. Jaffe compares Martin to Hernan Cortes.

Star-divide

There's mention made of the complete games Martin's starters threw, including Rick Langford finishing 23 of 24 starts at one point in 1980 and missing the one by a single out, but while it led to some short-term success the pitchers quickly burned out within a year or two. Ever a manager who lived in the "now," it shows Martin did not look down the line to see how it would affect them later. Though his starters often worked a lot, he also tended to overuse some of his relief pitchers to the point of them frequently pitching on consecutive days more than they should have.

Looking back on Martin, it's easy to see where he was both good and bad as a manager. Everywhere he went, his teams performed well. There are some statistics in the excerpt that also further show this. The downside was his time with each team was very brief and his style led to a lot of immediate wins followed by rougher years once he was gone.

His Detroit teams finished first and third then averaged 96 losses the first two years after his departure, finishing last both times. They were already headed downward in Oakland in 1982 and didn't begin to recover until Tony LaRussa arrived in 1986. Still, his track record speaks for itself. In only three years did his teams play below .500 and just one of those (1982 in Oakland) was a full season. The others were partial years in Texas sandwiched around one full season.

Jaffe seems to do an excellent job of summarizing who Martin was as a manager and if this excerpt is any indication the book itself should be an interesting read, especially for anyone who likes to get deeper into the managing side of baseball.

0 recs  |  Comment 26 comments |

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I heart Billy Martin

my favorite manager of all time…

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Nov 17, 2009 11:06 AM PST reply actions  

Thanks for the tip on this book Flash

I often find Managers and coaches more interesting than players so this book might be right up my alley.

As far as Martin he managed the A’s when I was very young and while I saw several games that he managed my 7 year old brain wasn’t exactly breaking down his strategies and managerial acumen.

I really came of age while watching Tony La Russa manage the A’s and I feel pretty lucky about that as I think he’s a great manager and a very interesting person.

by sirbed on Nov 17, 2009 11:15 AM PST reply actions  

Looking forward to reading this

if not just to find out if Tommy Lasorda really is a complete buffoon. Though this brief audio clip is quite endearing:

Don’t listen to this if you don’t like the f-word

or if you have man or woman love for Kurt Bevacqua.

According Wikipedia, Bevacqua was the “1975 Joe Garagiola/Bazooka Bubble Gum Blowing Champ.”

by Mark H on Nov 17, 2009 12:08 PM PST reply actions  

When it comes to sports hate

Tommy Lasorda is near the top of my list. I even booed him when he was the dugout wizard on The Baseball Bunch.

by sirbed on Nov 17, 2009 12:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Bevacqua also got his ass kicked by Sal Bando in '73

Says so here, and there below:

(Billy) North’s impact on the A’s had been considerable. He had also left an imprint on American League rivals, who had come to detest his combative, feisty, and- some would say- dirty style of play. On May 18, North had tangled with Kansas City’s Doug Bird. North had also become involved in two subsequent incidents. On August 31, the Royals’ Kurt Bevacqua pushed North twice while he stood at third base, in apparent retaliation for the assault on Bird. A’s captain Sal Bando, standing at home plate, ran toward third base in defense of North and tackled Bevacqua.

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Nov 17, 2009 12:54 PM PST up reply actions  

I've heard it said....

that Martin liked to think of himself as an old west outlaw/gunfighter. If that’s true, then his management of pitchers must be akin to the outlaw riding hard for the border with a posse hot on his heels. The horse only has to last until it crosses an arbitrary line.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Nov 17, 2009 12:34 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

I think Jaffe goes too far with his, "Billy was all about intimidating everyone!" stuff

It sounds way too much like the standard-issue stuff you hear about teams that “came to play”. He talks about Hernan Cortes for 2 paragraphs, but never once asks questions like, “Did Billy Martin actually understand something about stealing home that other managers didn’t understand? Did he know something special about pitching that helped guys like Keough and McCatty and Langford succeed beyond what people thought they could achieve (and was that thing he taught them related to the spitball?)? Did Martin, who hit a lot of HRs in his career for a small middle-infielder, teach hitters like Rickey to hit more HRs?”

Instead, Jaffe just keeps repeating his point about Martin’s fire to win, etc. Here’s probably the most irritating paragraph in the piece:

There is nothing quite like having a lunatic boss to cause employees to reach deeper within themselves. No one wanted to face a hostile Billy Martin in the dugout. Tellingly, almost all of the Twins’ wild base running came in the first half of 1969. Carew’s last home plate steal came in Minnesota’s 19th game. Once Martin had installed the desired mindset in Minnesota, there was no need to run the risky home plate steals. For the rest of the season opponents played back on their heels, wondering what Minnesota would do next.

First, what’s the evidence for that last assertion? Did opponents make more errors against the Twins than against other teams? Did the Twins’ actual runs-scored exceed their (component-based) runs-created? And when Jaffe asserts that Martin didn’t need to try to steal home once the “mindset” had been established — again, did Martin actually say this in 1969? Or is Jaffe just making an unfounded inference because the only thing he really has to say about Martin is that he wanted to win more than anyone else? If I had to hazard a guess, I’d hypothesize that the Twins stopped stealing home…because after stealing home 10 times in the first month of the season or whatever it was, other pitchers stopped pitching out of the windup with a Twins runner on 3rd.

To put it bluntly: we really don’t need a new book on managers to tell us that Billy Martin was crazy, incredibly driven and competitive, and fond of stealing home and overworking pitchers. Everyone already knows all of that. But there are lots of other red-ass, aggressive managers, many of whom were complete failures, none of whom were as successful as Billy. And there are lots of managers who burn out pitchers, but don’t get them to pitch as well as Martin did. I’d be really interested in a systematic analysis of what Billy did for a team: what happened to the teams to make them so successful while he was there? did the teams improve because Billy had an eye for talent and knew which players to play? did they improve because he taught his players how to hit HRs, or steal home, or throw spitters?

There have got to be lots of other interesting questions to ask about Billy Martin, who was pretty much one of a kind. Maybe a manager could actually use some of what Billy taught or did without having to, you know, be a rageaholic drunk. Unfortunately, Jaffe seems so interested in coming up with new ways to say that Martin was driven and crazy that he never bothers asking any interesting questions or providing any insights about him.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Nov 17, 2009 12:55 PM PST reply actions  

You might want to ask Jaffe some of this yourself

I noticed at the end of the posting there’s reference made to much of the Twins information coming from Will Young, who once blogged about the Twins. Maybe they’ll have a little more insight to some of those claims.

Last of the Ninth - Photography

by Flashfire on Nov 17, 2009 1:30 PM PST up reply actions  

My favorite Billy Martin moment......

is the pine tar incident. Not only was Billy smart enough to wait for the perfect moment to call for an inspection, but Brett’s reaction made it historic, as well as historically funny.

Let the Kids play Billy!! No More Rent-a-Vet in Oakland!!

by s0sNe@kYbUtY? on Nov 17, 2009 4:55 PM PST reply actions  

These qoutes are from thebaseballpage.com

Quotes About Billy Martin

“There’s a manager I could play for.” — Reggie Jackson talking about Billy Martin, when Jackson was with the Orioles in 1976.

“I’d fire my mother for the chance to hire Billy Martin.” — Rangers owner Bob Short, defending his firing of Whitey Herzog to make way for Martin

“Even when Billy’s not around, he’s in ever mind. It’s like a spiritual involvement with the Lord. You can’t see him, but you know he’s there. That’s enough.” — Oakland pitcher Mike Norris (My personal favorite qoute ABOUT Billy)

Quotes From Billy Martin

“The two of them deserve each other. One’s a born liar; the other’s convicted.” — Billy Martin, on Reggie Jackson and George Steinbrenner

“I owe it to my health and mental well-being to resign at this time, and I am very sorry that there were things written about George Steinbrenner. He did not deserve them, nor did I say them. George and I have had our differences, and in most cases we have been able to resolve them.” — Billy Martin, announcing his “resignation” as Yankee manager in the middle of the 1978 season

“If they can win with that club, I’m a Chinese aviator.” — Billy Martin, explaining why he thought the Brewers would not stay at the top of the American League East division in 1973 (My favorite quote FROM Billy)

Let the Kids play Billy!! No More Rent-a-Vet in Oakland!!

by s0sNe@kYbUtY? on Nov 17, 2009 7:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Also great is this SNL skit......

this is the transcript from 1986 when Billy hosted with Anjelica Huston.

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/85/85rmono.phtml

I cant find the video, but this episode was great!

Let the Kids play Billy!! No More Rent-a-Vet in Oakland!!

by s0sNe@kYbUtY? on Nov 17, 2009 5:00 PM PST reply actions  

OMG!!

I have, well almost apparently, every SNL episode in history, and cant find this one. I have almost 20 different extended length VHS tapes with complied episodes from pre DVD days, and almost everything 1990’s and foreword on DVD, but I cant find Billy and Angelica for the life of me. I give up.

Let the Kids play Billy!! No More Rent-a-Vet in Oakland!!

by s0sNe@kYbUtY? on Nov 17, 2009 7:05 PM PST up reply actions  

When Billy came to Oakland

One of the first things he did was to tell his players that they were good and they could win, but nobody has taught them to win. The ironic thing was the Finley despised Martin, but knew he could make the team a winner, and make the club more valuable as Finley wanted to sell the club due to his divorce.
    79 was a dismal season, 54-108. Billy took the same team to a 83-79 season, and it was thrilling. I was lucky enough to see it and it was a blast, you just never knew what was going to happen, but it was going to be exciting. 81’ was a blast, except for the strike, Billy could have been elected mayor of Oakland. The first round of the playoffs against KC, we killed them, with the apex being game 3 in Oakland. I was there, the place was rocking, more so than I saw before or since. If it was not for Billy, the A’s would be in Denver, it was that close.
     After spring training in 1980 the vans carrying the equipment stopped, and called Charlie Finley, do we go to Oakland or Denver….it was Oakland.

Stomp,em, stomp the piss out of em.Then pound the budweiser after the game. Joe Schultz Seattle Piolts Mgr 1969

by billyball1981 on Nov 17, 2009 6:05 PM PST reply actions  

im sorry but that doesn't follow that Billy saved Oakland baseball if his success started after the time that you suggest they were tyring to move them

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 17, 2009 6:13 PM PST up reply actions  

+1

Getting rid of Charley F is what kept the A’s in Oakland. I still have some hope for the same thing happening with Al Davis.

As for Billy Ball, we had three seasons of it. Here is what I remember most:
1980 – a slightly better than .500 team (which was most refreshing after the ’79 .333 team). Great starting pitching, no bullpen.
1981 – 17-1 start, followed by a mostly .500 play the rest of the season. Still no bullpen. Losing to the farking Yankees in the ALCS. We had this loudmouthed female student in my dorm from Connecticut who was a big (in more than one way) Yankee fan. She is the reason I despise all Yankee fans today.
1982 – Rickey, and nothing else. Starters all started to fall apart after three seasons of Billy Martin and Art Fowler abuse. Martin fired, then returned to the Yankees. I hate NY.

Hey Al, just go away, baby.

by doctorK on Nov 17, 2009 9:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Technically, yes.

Haas buying the team was the final act that saved the team for Oakland. Martin did help lead to that conclusion in an indirect way, though. He was a tool (not meant in the negative way) of others. He didn’t have the status or position to be literally directly involved.

There are still plenty of reasons to remember Martin fondly, though. For those of us who were die-hard fans in 1979 his reign was like being reborn.

Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you. ~Reggie Jackson

by UncleLeo on Nov 18, 2009 9:04 AM PST up reply actions  

Did you know

That after the sale was completed that Billy asked Charlie for a “comission” saying that if it wasn’t for him making the team win it would not have been worth as much. I suppose Billy was right, but I think I could hear Charlie laughing all the way from Indiana.

Stomp,em, stomp the piss out of em.Then pound the budweiser after the game. Joe Schultz Seattle Piolts Mgr 1969

by billyball1981 on Nov 19, 2009 6:10 PM PST up reply actions  

LOL..thats awesome

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhNLLYKvduw…here’s a nice little vid on Billy and Charlie

"It's like we used to say in practice: first one to cry is a sissy."-Jack Tatum

by The Villain 32 on Nov 20, 2009 3:56 AM PST up reply actions  

oops!! here..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhNLLYKvduw

"It's like we used to say in practice: first one to cry is a sissy."-Jack Tatum

by The Villain 32 on Nov 20, 2009 3:57 AM PST up reply actions  

If you were a fan at the time

You might remember the constant threat of moving the A’s to either Washington D.C., which was Bowie Kuhn’s favorite destination, or the three years of the on again off again sale of the team to Marvin Davis. Davis almost bought the team in early 1980, but Charlie O. thought if he could get the team better he could get more money for the sale of the club.
Granted, bringing in Billy is like eating Twinkies for dinner, it kills your appetite, but has no nutrition.
However, the team did win, the value of the club increased, and the Haas family purchased the club in August 1980. I remember being at the game when the sale was announced. It was a Saturday vs. the Mariners. It was one of the longest standing ovations, and after the season Charlie was gone. It is my feeling that the improvement of the club did have a positive influence on gaining local ownership.

Stomp,em, stomp the piss out of em.Then pound the budweiser after the game. Joe Schultz Seattle Piolts Mgr 1969

by billyball1981 on Nov 18, 2009 6:29 AM PST up reply actions  

I still don't get the appeal of this guy.

I guess I just don’t find raging alcoholic madmen to be “interesting”, personality wise (and I’ve always found alcoholism to be vile and destructive).

And all the careers he ruined? Jesus, I wouldn’t let this guy come within a mile of Brett Anderson, Cahill, Mazzaro, etc.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Nov 17, 2009 9:20 PM PST reply actions  

I have talked to some of the pitcher from the era

Norris, and Langford both told me that they did not blame billy. They seemed to lay the blame on the long strike of 81. None of them threw during the layoff, and just came back like nothing happened. This may be true, but Billy should have taken that in consideration, and not overworked them. If you look at the pitch counts, Langford usually completed his games throwing 120 pitches on average.
He was a stubborn man, and not very pleasant. My Dad grew up with him, and could not stand him. I guess he took alot of crap growing up, my Dad said it was well known that his mother was a woman of questionable morals, and his aunt ran a house of ill repute in west Berkeley. That may have had somthing to do with his destructive behavior, but it does not excuse it.

Stomp,em, stomp the piss out of em.Then pound the budweiser after the game. Joe Schultz Seattle Piolts Mgr 1969

by billyball1981 on Nov 18, 2009 6:38 AM PST up reply actions  

Martin alwasy struck me as the kind of person who...

…you had to like from afar, because you knew you’d never like him in person. His players seemed to like him, for the most part, though that’s a different kind of relationship, I think.

The early pitcher burn-out does concern me, but there are a couple other ways you could look at that…

1) They may never have even had the two good years under a lesser manager, or

2) Pitchers of their era were in far better shape, in general, than pitchers on the early 20th century and they didn’t have issues with workloads like this.

Every hitter likes fastballs, just like everybody likes ice cream. But you don't like it when someone's stuffing it into you by the gallon. That's what it feels like when Nolan Ryan's thrown balls by you. ~Reggie Jackson

by UncleLeo on Nov 18, 2009 9:11 AM PST up reply actions  

With the Yankees

I wasn’t around for Martin’s time with the A’s, and always thought of him more as the N.Y. manager. Last year I talked with Mike Pagliarulo about Martin and his death on Christmas ’89. He called him “vey honest,” generally had very good things to say about Martin: “Billy could see the field so completely; he knew what everybody was doing.”

by arnec on Nov 18, 2009 2:13 PM PST reply actions  

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