DLS and Mat Gamel

by catfish hunter on Nov 15, 2009 9:24 PM PST

Chicago Tribune mentions Beane's thoughts on seeing DLS pitching, mid-90's.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-16-rogers-whispers-nov16,0,4524518.column

In that same article, there's talk about the Brewers possibly making Gamel available; defense not that great, right? I bet he could be had for some pitching? I'm also guessing he might come cheaper than previously, but might be worth the risk for giving up maybe Eveland, Gray, and?

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Couple things

This was posted in the thread directly below. The DLS info was questioned by grover. What it comes down to, in my opinion, is whether Instructional League is ongoing or not. If it’s stopped, the Tribune is probably using outdated information since DLS was throwing mid 90s but was shut down. If it’s still going on, DLS may be back and going strong which is great, great news.

On Gamel, I doubt the Brewers want Eveland. He was once their property long ago. Gray is also filler that could be used at the back end of a trade. Gamel is the Brewers last remaining chip if they plan on competing. They need a lot of good pitching. They won’t simply give Gamel away. They probably ask for Cahill and then maybe Simmons/Gray/Buck for Gamel. Whether I would accept that deal is questionable.

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Nov 15, 2009 9:58 PM PST reply actions

Instructs are over

There is a Dominican camp going on (and Beane did travel that way recently) but the comment doesn’t say anything about Beane leaving the country when he saw DLS. Its been roughly 6 weeks since the A’s had to shut DLS down again because of his elbow… that seems like the shortest possible time frame for him to get healthy and start pitching off the mound again.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 16, 2009 5:21 AM PST up reply actions

SuSlu's Got the Info

At the end of this article on Bailey’s ROY win, she’s got an update on Ynoa and DLS. Both are pitching in the Dominican camp and “looking terrific.” Apparently, DLS will be coming out of the pen next year.

by dnew on Nov 17, 2009 6:43 AM PST up reply actions

Well, that sucks

Also doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. What on earth do the A’s need with more bullpen pitchers?

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 17, 2009 9:44 AM PST up reply actions

Thats got to plummet him down your prospect list huh?

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 17, 2009 10:33 AM PST up reply actions

Im hoping that its a temporary thing to build arm strength while recovering and then he gets transfered back to the rotation.\

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 17, 2009 10:33 AM PST up reply actions

I guess, but I mean

if we’re crossing off yet another half a season for “building arm strength” in the bullpen… I mean, it feels like the guy would be 30 by the time he actually made the majors as a starter.

by PaulThomas on Nov 17, 2009 10:57 AM PST up reply actions

I used to think that DLS was comparable to Bedard

Both had TJS and became old for their levels but Bedard did stick in the majors when he was 25. DLS would have to rocket through the system to spend his age 25 year (2011) entirely in the majors.

Maybe making him a relief pitcher will allow him to do that and make it to at least AAA next year. Then spend next offseason regaining arm strength.

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Nov 17, 2009 11:26 AM PST up reply actions

The minor leagues aren't like a school system

You don’t have to spend a certain amount of time in every level before you “graduate.”

by PaulThomas on Nov 17, 2009 12:33 PM PST up reply actions

Nor are they like a school system,

in that if you fail in the minor leagues you aren’t often just promoted anyway.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 17, 2009 7:57 PM PST up reply actions

Oh, I don't know

What about Carlos Gomez?

by PaulThomas on Nov 17, 2009 8:04 PM PST up reply actions

Affirmative action?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 17, 2009 8:32 PM PST up reply actions

Right...

This applies….how?

FDLS has barely pitched at A+, which unlike in the school system is not a good thing. He wasn’t even good at A+, although some of that can be attributed to injury and sample size. I don’t see how putting him straight in any level above A+ helps him or the team. And if he’s proving himself there, spending much time at AAA is rocketing through the system regardless if there’s a stop in Midland or not.

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Nov 18, 2009 12:15 PM PST up reply actions

Missing the point

The point is that “making it to AAA” is neither useful nor relevant to the A’s. The only relevant criterion is how to get a player to provide value to the MLB team.

Putting him in the bullpen is a virtually guaranteed way to reduce that value to almost nothing, because the A’s have so many bullpen pitchers that they’re already relegating multiple guys to AAA who’d make the roster of almost any other team.

Unless you can show that putting DLS in the bullpen somehow increases the speed at which he can make it to the A’s rotation, you’re arguing a loser.

by PaulThomas on Nov 18, 2009 1:00 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

I'm assuming that's the plan

I would guess the A’s fully intend for DLS to make it as a starter if he’s going to make it, and that they feel the “kid gloves” approach, initially, will give his elbow the best chance.

The important inference in all of this is, unfortunately, a negative: His recovery from TJ surgery has been less smooth than average.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 18, 2009 6:29 PM PST up reply actions

Which is exactly what I've been saying:

This is bad news, not good news.

by PaulThomas on Nov 18, 2009 7:54 PM PST up reply actions

I think doing so does speed up when he makes the rotation

If you assume two facts: next year DLS won’t be able to pitch more than 65+ (random number) innings anyway because of injury and that FDLS needs time at A+. Relievers can move up a system quicker than SP. If in 2010 FDLS can learn how to get higher level hitters out, he can focus in 2011 on keeping his dominance while increasing his workload.

Also, the notion that DLS is worthless as a bullpen pitcher is silly. If the A’s believe he’s not going to make it as a SP, it decreases DLS’ value but not to 0. Perhaps the bullpen maximizes DLS’ value.

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Nov 18, 2009 6:59 PM PST up reply actions

And we're right back to the school system analogy

No one “needs” to spend a certain amount of time at a certain level.

Given how different pitching in the bullpen and the rotation are, I seriously question the concept of “learning to get higher level hitters out” and then returning to the rotation. The road to the bullpen is basically a one-way street. There are a handful of exceptions like Duchscherer, but he was such a unique pitcher to begin with that it’s hard to generalize his situation.

Want more examples? Look at how many problems the Joba Chamberlain situation has created for New York.

I agree that his value as a bullpen pitcher is not literally zero, but he’s so redundant that converting a MiLB starter who has literally any chance of being a decent MLB starter for Oakland to the bullpen is insane at this point. The team is already going to be relegating good prospects like Demel and solid middle relief players like Gray to the minors next season.

Converting starters to relievers is such an inefficient process that it needs to be avoided wherever possible. It’s like burning money to heat your house.

by PaulThomas on Nov 18, 2009 8:05 PM PST up reply actions

Relievers

I agree with you that relievers are much less valuable than starters, but I sometimes wonder if you go too far in the other direction and undervalue them.

With regard to our surplus keeping guys like Gray and Demel in the minors, I wonder if we aren’t going to trade a few this off-season. In the latest press conference, Beane strongly hinted at doing some trades. Since we presumably aren’t going to give away the top prospects that he’s been touting by name, and we don’t have a whole lot in the way of good veterans to give away either, I would imagine our wide selection of quality relievers would be the main trade offering, with the other team being able to pick out what they prefer in terms of age, quality, etc. Whether we trade away Demel and Gray or Wuertz and Kilby, one way or another it reduces the oversupply.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 18, 2009 9:50 PM PST up reply actions

Then it boils down to two concepts

Firstly, can FDLS pitch a full season’s worth of innings as a SP? I don’t know your opinion on this but given DLS’ fragile condition and lack of innings in the last 1.5 years, I’ll assume we agree on no.

Then it all boils down to one question. Which helps FDLS become a major league SP more: a) to get 5 starts at A and 5 at AA or b) to get a bunch of 2 inning appearances across A, AA, and AAA?

You think A and I think B. You cite Joba whose future outcome is not known. Perhaps Joba can make the transition. Papelbon is probably a better example since his outcome is decided.

The player I cite is Arnold Leon. The A’s have been trying to limit Leon’s innings while rising him up the system and simultaneously making him a starter. Their approach has been to have Leon in the pen and slowly increase his innings before moving him to a rotation. This approach may be best for FDLS.

Now there is one big difference between FDLS and Leon: age. This of course is the big knock on DLS. But there’s nothing we can do about it. As long as DLS has the tools to succeed in the majors, I’m less worried about his ARL than anything else. I don’t think there’s any plan that could put DLS in the majors next year. I don’t think keeping DLS as a SP speeds up the process.

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Nov 19, 2009 1:01 AM PST up reply actions

I'm less worried than someone else's not anything else

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Nov 19, 2009 1:03 AM PST up reply actions

Well, I don't like what the A's did with Leon this season at all

I think they’ve wasted a ton of time with him, possibly delaying his advent to the majors unnecessarily by a year or more. Part of this is that they’ve barely increased his innings at all. Two years ago he threw about 90 innings. This year, when winter ball is over, he’ll have… what, 100? At most?

by PaulThomas on Nov 19, 2009 12:27 PM PST up reply actions

agreed, PT

The A’s already have a slew of hard throwing, decent upside relief pitchers. I dunno why DLS would be moved to the pen. Doesn’t even necessarily make sense health wise.

by oakballnack on Nov 18, 2009 10:15 AM PST up reply actions

Damn

The Chronicle got scooped by the Chicago Tribune by about 3 days on this topic.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 17, 2009 11:48 AM PST up reply actions

Gamel is reportedly a dismal defensive 3B

Kind of a poor man’s Brett Wallace, IMO. Since the A’s already have the real deal, I don’t really see much need to acquire an inferior version.

If the team is looking for a defensively challenged slugger, there should be plenty of them available as free agents or for less expensive trade packages, like Jake Fox.

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 10:21 PM PST reply actions

Yeah

Gamel had one great season in the minors, and by all reports, Wallace has softer hands and a better arm, albeit with less range. The Brewers have been toying with moving Gamel to the OF for a while

by oakballnack on Nov 18, 2009 10:19 AM PST up reply actions

I know nothing of Gamel, but

any player who can be fairly valued as equal to Eveland+Gray is a player I can’t get excited about obtaining.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 15, 2009 10:49 PM PST reply actions

+100

Let the Kids play Billy!! No More Rent-a-Vet in Oakland!!

by s0sNe@kYbUtY? on Nov 15, 2009 11:04 PM PST up reply actions

Even if Gamel is an OF instead of a 3B, he's still a very good offensive prospect.

Just because a prospect becomes “available” doesn’t mean he’s available for spare parts like Eveland, Gray and ….

The …. would have to be a good young pitcher or the Brewers would hang up and never take a call from Beane again.

If you think Billy Beane is a bad GM, I hate you and find you stupid.

by NateHST on Nov 15, 2009 11:50 PM PST up reply actions

I read

Brewers want starting pitching if they put Gamel up for trade. Eveland doesn’t get it. It would atleast take a Gio or Mazzaro which to me pass on since we have a Wallace.

by Arcman on Nov 16, 2009 7:19 AM PST up reply actions

Exactly. Gamel won't be available for guys like Eveland and Gray

When he is, it will be because he’s DFA or released down the line, and a team can grab him for little or nothing. My guess is he will be acquired by someone as an OFer, for a cost of a once-excellent hitting prospect who is stalling a bit but still has a lot of offensive potential, and that if the A’s aren’t prepared to part with someone more like Mazzaro/Gio than Eveland/Gray then he won’t be coming to Oakland.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 16, 2009 5:19 PM PST up reply actions