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Around SBN: Jeff Sullivan's MLB Trade Deadline Primer

The Art & Science Of Well-Timed Acquisitions And Trades

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Here's how a conversation generally goes with a passionate A's fan unclear on the concept:

2008: "We should get J.J. Hardy; he's really good."
          "No way -- we'd have to give up so much to get him!!!111"

2009: "We should 'buy low' on J.J. Hardy."
           "No way -- now I'm worried that he sucks!!!111"

2008: "We should sign Russell Branyan; he'll be really cheap."
          "No way -- he's not that good!!!111"

2009: "We should sign Russell Branyan; he's proven himself now."
           "No way -- now he's overvalued!!!111"

           "Hasn't proven he's any good yet!!!111"
           "On the decline!!!111"
           "Too injury prone!!!111"
           "Too good; we can't afford him!!!111"
           "Not good enough; we don't want him!!!111"

Thing is...If you stay away from players who just showed how bad they can be, and stay away from players who might have just shown the best they'll ever show, stay away from players who are risks for decline and injury, and don't even think about those really pricey players who are good, established, healthy, and in their prime...Who exactly is left?

Star-divide

This Winter's free agent market features the usual blend of all of the above. Marco Scutaro and Russell Branyan will probably never duplicate the seasons they just had, Miguel Tejada has been declining ever since whatever birthday he had 3 years ago, Ben Sheets and Justin Duchscherer are two of the finest starters who rarely actually pitch, and they certainly never pitch to Nick Johnson, and so on.

The A's current roster has these components as well. You could "sell high" on Rajai Davis and risk trading away one of the few players who actually played well last year -- well at a position where defense is especially important and the dropoff defensively on the current "CF depth chart" is significant. You could trade Travis Buck and/or Daric Barton because they've shown the potential not to be the answer, but then you have to trade them for "might not be the answer" value -- as happened with Sean Gallagher and more recently with Hardy.

The potential trade market is similar too. You could get Garret Atkins for fairly little, but fairly little is what you'll probably get from Garret Atkins. You could roll the dice on the potential hitting prowess of a "major league ready" young slugger like Mat Gamel or Jake Fox, giving up defense for players whose offensive abilities are still unknown. You could hope that Jed Lowrie is as good as he was when he was healthy and is as healthy as he was when he was good, and have two shots at getting burned.

So who might be just good enough to help and just old, young, brittle, or unproven enough to be affordable?

Among free agents, I like Troy Glaus because he's a masher who could provide some insurance at 3B and 1B, while primarily serving as DH (and yes, that means you might see Jack Cust with a glove). The downside is that Glaus is a "triple-threat": He could be declining, he could be injured, and he could be not worth it by way of making Cust field. So it's far from a slam dunk.

Among trade targets, I like Chase Headley because the upside is substantial but he hasn't broken out to where his trade value is through the roof. He also slugged under .400 last season. See? The very reason he might be attainable is also the reason he might be no better than the guys we have (Buck, Cunningham, Barton...). Given that 2009 was not kind to Headley, I wonder what his asking price is for the rebuilding Padres. (Do they know they're rebuilding? If not, someone really should tell them.)

I like Todd Frazier (Reds) because I think he can hit and he is still only a prospect so the asking price shouldn't be outrageous. He also has exactly zero major league hits, walks, and HRs, so it might be a bit early to build the franchise around him.

I also like Shin-Soo Choo because he's really good -- yet the Indians, having recently lost CC Sabathia and Cliff Lee, really should be setting their sights on rebuliding their pitching and Choo might be just "not Grady Sizemore or Asdrubal Cabrera" enough to be considered tradeable. Maybe it's because he plays in Cleveland, but Choo strikes me as a real "under the radar" player -- a guy you think is "pretty good" until you actually look at the numbers and realize no, he's "very good." I wonder what the Indians would ask for in return.

I also wonder where my pants are. Curse you, Sunday morning!

2 recs  |  Comment 407 comments |

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Was the doctor on the right about to cut some potential losses?

or remove an “organ” from the team body and sell it?

alaska A residing in northern Idaho.

by ak_A on Nov 15, 2009 7:07 AM PST reply actions  

He is about to extract a piano to put in the ER break room

The patient is an organ donor.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 7:59 AM PST up reply actions  

Like my dad always says

“What’s better than a rose on a piano?”
“Tulips on my organ.”

And yes, I’ve waited two or so years for the right time to use that.

What’s that? I’m banned? Sigh.

Well before I go, this acquisition thing isn’t so hard. Stick with guys with great hair and cool surnames, and you’ve got yourself a contender.

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Nov 15, 2009 9:03 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Coco Crisp!!!111

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 9:44 AM PST up reply actions  

Bobby Kielty!!!111

No, there's no light,
in the darkest of your furthest reaches.

by danmerqury on Nov 15, 2009 10:12 AM PST up reply actions  

Esteban Ochocinco!!!!

Sock puppets have never been able to successfully attack castles. -Nevermoor

by Leopold Bloom on Nov 15, 2009 10:28 AM PST up reply actions  

buzzzzzzz, WRONG!!!111

your exclamation marks are all discombobulated.

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 10:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Milton Bradley!!!111

The foundational Western philosophical quote; "I think, therefore I am..." applies to everyone except Booby "the joke" Crozby

by MMunoz33 on Nov 15, 2009 10:41 AM PST up reply actions  

Randy Johnson!!!111

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 10:43 AM PST up reply actions  

Josh. Towers.

I’m riding this train to the end of the line.

I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does

by bobnothing on Nov 15, 2009 6:56 PM PST up reply actions  

I'll take Tejada to play 3B, or SS, or DH;

and re-sign Duke to an 2yr incentive laden deal…

The foundational Western philosophical quote; "I think, therefore I am..." applies to everyone except Booby "the joke" Crozby

by MMunoz33 on Nov 15, 2009 7:21 AM PST reply actions  

DH? The A's have plenty of internal options, or cheap external options at their disposal

That are better offensive players all over the place. Tejada still has defensive value, whether at SS or 3B. Signing him to DH would be silly.

If you think Billy Beane is a bad GM, I hate you and find you stupid.

by NateHST on Nov 15, 2009 8:47 AM PST up reply actions  

Signing Tejada to DH would mean either Cust playing OF

or downgrading at DH. Neither makes sense to me. Tejada playing 3B makes sense, assuming he can do it (I’m always skeptical of guys playing positions for the first time on the basis of “they should be able to” — but I’d also say Tejada is a great candidate for a pretty seamless transition).

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 9:00 AM PST up reply actions  

never mind, I checked, and it doesn't look like he did

that being said, I could see him being able to adequately play at 3B on a backup basis – especially if he gets a chance to practice a bit there before the season begins – as well as being a backup SS, bench bat, and occasional DH. The question reallly is whether he’d be willing to do it, and whether he’s still got enough left offensively for such a role.

by OaklandSi on Nov 15, 2009 9:34 AM PST up reply actions  

thats the crazy thing

MIGUEL TEJADA HAS NEVER EVER EVER APPEARED IN A GAME OTHER THAN AT SS OR DH.

Sorry it needed to be in caps, people for some insane reason think his horrible SS defense will be less horrible at 3B for some reason even though he’s never played there before. The reality he’s not going to turn into a plus defender there at age 36-41 or whatever he is, what’s the point of signing Miggy to block Wallace if their defense isnt going to be that much different?

by PL78 on Nov 15, 2009 12:36 PM PST up reply actions  

excuse me, why did this need to be in caps?

and who said they expected Tejada to turn into a plus defender at 3B? I certainly haven’t said that, and I haven’t seen anyone else say that here.

Many baseball people have asserted that it would be less of a stretch for a shortstop to convert to 3B than, say, a second baseman. We saw that Kennedy was shifted in the middle of last season from 2B to starting 3B. He himself acknowledged that his performance there wasn’t great. There are indications that the A’s might be considering re-signing Kennedy. If they do he is likely to begin the season as the everyday 3B. (unless you think Chavez will actually be able to do it? or that they will start Wallace there to begin the season?)

I merely pointed out that Tejada might be reasonable as a backup (or would BACKUP be clearer?) 3B and SS, as well as a bench bat and occasional DH, providing that he still has enough offensively left….and I’m certainly not the only person who has written about this (nor is AN the only place where this has come up).

by OaklandSi on Nov 15, 2009 12:55 PM PST up reply actions  

The question in your subject line

is answered by the last sentence in your post.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 15, 2009 1:02 PM PST up reply actions  

maybe, maybe not...

by the way, one point against the A’s being inclined to sign Tejada is that he was classified as a Type A free agent.

by OaklandSi on Nov 15, 2009 1:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah but odds of him being offered arbitration are slim

The Astros are moving on without him.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 1:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Miguel Tejada's defense at short is not "horrible"

“Bad” is supportable. “Horrible” is not. He has a large track record in UZR and comes out at about -5 runs a season.

If he can adjust well to third base, he could easily be average or better there. And even the worst case scenario (that he’s no better there than at short) isn’t THAT bad.

Disclaimer: This is factual background, not an argument for or against signing a particular player.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 1:20 PM PST up reply actions  

He has played 3b in winter league. Please know WTF you are talking about. Thanks.

and it really isn’t insane to think that moving down the defensive spectrum will improve his defense relative to less skilled peers nor is it insane to believe that eliminating the need for lateral range which has been Tejada’s biggest weakness at SS would improve his defensive play.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2009 4:06 PM PST up reply actions  

OBTW, Nico has been promoting Glaus for some time now;

and I sure like the idea with him or Tejada on board to serve as the veteran leader…

Hopefully, it doesn’t turn into a Giambi case! (magagerial clash with Geren situation)

Beane will probably go with Kennedy! :(

The foundational Western philosophical quote; "I think, therefore I am..." applies to everyone except Booby "the joke" Crozby

by MMunoz33 on Nov 15, 2009 8:59 AM PST reply actions  

My only hesitation is that in order for signing Glaus to make sense

you have to be willing to play Cust in the OF. Now a Cust/Hairston platoon, or a Cust/Cunningham platoon, works fine for me to get the offensive gains. But some may convulse at the notion of seeing Cust and a glove together.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 9:02 AM PST up reply actions  

Cust

There’s a guy I should have asked to donate a glove.

by elcroata on Nov 15, 2009 9:04 AM PST up reply actions  

(Cust in OF) I personally don't mind it, but

I haven’’t looked to hard at the baseball stats to break it down…

I am looking for a huge season from Scott Hairston! You heard it here first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The foundational Western philosophical quote; "I think, therefore I am..." applies to everyone except Booby "the joke" Crozby

by MMunoz33 on Nov 15, 2009 9:11 AM PST up reply actions  

I certainly think he'll be better than he showed this year

and he does provide 20+HR power per 162 games.

Two realities get in the way, though: He has consistent track records of not staying healthy and of not hitting RHP very well, and those are two big strikes against him. To me, he’s a platoon player on a good team and an every day player on a mediocre team.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 9:48 AM PST up reply actions  

...and for the A's that means....

no real chance of Buck making the opening day 25.

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 10:09 AM PST up reply actions  

I predict Buck will be dealt this Winter

Just a hunch. (No inside info.)

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 10:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Never to be heard from again

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 10:26 AM PST up reply actions  

Would not surprise me, either.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by UncleLeo on Nov 15, 2009 11:11 AM PST up reply actions  

Remember when people were worried about his service clock?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 11:13 AM PST up reply actions  

LOL! Yeah, really.

The least of his worries now, most likely.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by UncleLeo on Nov 15, 2009 12:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Buck has 3 good months to start

and never lived up to those months again. He’s a failed prospect at this point, trade his ass for an A-ball player.

by PL78 on Nov 15, 2009 12:38 PM PST up reply actions  

You know who else has only had 3 good months?

One rhymes with Stiff Kennington and the other with Taj Mavis.

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Nov 15, 2009 1:27 PM PST up reply actions  

ZOMG RAJ JUST NEVER GOT CONSISTENT PLAYING TIME!!!1!!!1!!!11one!!

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 15, 2009 2:35 PM PST up reply actions  

You have that backwards

Raj had three good months, his last 3 months incidentally.

Pennington you can’t even rate here because there is nothing to go on besides 3 months, so your point is moot on both sides.

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 5:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Stiff Kennington

Porn Star Extraordinaire.

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 6:56 PM PST up reply actions  

I approve of this message.

I don’t understand how we deny him of playing time all year for no good reason, and then don’t trade him.

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 10:27 AM PST up reply actions  

"Just a hunch." {Or did you mean lunch?}

“What are you talking about?”……..

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox

by mrod on Nov 15, 2009 10:32 AM PST up reply actions  

Would not surprise me at all.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by UncleLeo on Nov 15, 2009 11:10 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't see Glaus being any more useful than Nomar last year unless he can really play 3B.

I don’t have any reason to think he can play there. The Cardinals certainly didn’t think he could. A’s have more pressing needs than a platoon partner for Barton and Cust.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 10:08 AM PST up reply actions  

Well, some ways I could see him being better than Nomar last year:

1. He could play 130-150 games (if he DHs I think that’s perfectly possible).

2. He could hit 25-30 HRs (per 162 games).

3. He is 3 years younger, and the difference between 33 and 36 is a lot when looking at injury/decline.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 10:27 AM PST up reply actions  

and he can hit 30 HR's.

and he’s an ex-angel.

and he can hit 30 HR’s.

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 10:37 AM PST up reply actions  

Ah. So you want him at DH?

That means either playing Cust in the OF and benching someone, presumably Hairston initially, or not keeping Cust.

Glaus has a career .367 wOBA, making him about the same as Cust (.363) as a hitter, but then you’re putting up with Jack’s defensive stylings (-12 UZR/150 career). That seems inefficient somehow. If you want to get rid of Cust, then you’re getting someone with a much worse health record.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 10:38 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't want to get rid of Cust

I see Glaus as potentially being a DH, with Cust/Hairston platooning in LF, Davis in CF, Sweeney in RF, Cunningham maybe your 5th OF. Cust/Hairston is a slightly better offensive player than Cust and a slightly better defensive player than Cust.

Then if/when your 3Bman goes down then you can slot Glaus in for a time, which improves the rest of your defense (by moving Cust to DH) without losing offense. Or if Barton bombs, you can slot Glaus in at 1B, which again improves the rest of your defense without losing offense.

It’s not a slam dunk, “we should do this!” but I could see it making sense. And Glaus is a CA dude who might actually want to sign with Oakland.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 10:59 AM PST up reply actions  

Who is this 3B who is going down? Chavez? He's already down.

And he can’t get up.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 11:02 AM PST up reply actions  

If I were handicapping Oakland's Opening Day 3Bman

from most to least likely right now, I’d go:

Chavez
Kennedy
Wallace

Now who will be there in May? For Game 2?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 11:08 AM PST up reply actions  

I'd be OK just going with Wallace from the start.

He’ll end up there eventually anyway. If they want a stopgap, I’d get whomever I could get for under $2M. Jamey Carroll? Craig Counsell? Kennedy?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 11:12 AM PST up reply actions  

I just don't want him to be a super 2

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 11:12 AM PST up reply actions  

Well if he were a Super 2, then that would mean he was good.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 11:14 AM PST up reply actions  

Damn you and your logic!

I retract my statement. But, I don’t want to get my hopes up that we may have a good 3b again.

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 11:17 AM PST up reply actions  

I really don't get the Jamey Carroll thing

He slugs worse than Pennington. If the A’s wanted to go that direction, and give up on getting any offense from the left side of the infield, they should have hung onto Hannahan.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 11:13 AM PST up reply actions  

Carroll can play SS though, unlike John Joseph II

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 11:14 AM PST up reply actions  

Oh, as a utility player he's fine

But then Kennedy is totally obsolete and you need an actual starting 3Bman until Wallace is up. I hope the A’s won’t sign both Kennedy and Carroll, and I’d be fine if they signed neither.

If they sign one or the other, I just kind of shrug my shoulders since your utility INF who is mostly a “veteran presence and only plays a lot because your team needs him to which means you suck” isn’t really a huge part of the puzzle.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 11:19 AM PST up reply actions  

Which is why I'd pick the cheapest one.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 11:26 AM PST up reply actions  

If we're really resigned to suck until 2011...

…which I’ve never been totally convinced is either a good idea or is even going to happen… then I’d be ok with having a “filler” player like Kennedy for all or part of 2010, but then we better be damn sure that 3B is covered well for 2011. Whether that be Wallace or someone else.

Barring some kind of reasonable certainty, then we should be looking for a real 3B, sooner rather than later, instead. Again, whether that be Wallace or someone else…

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by UncleLeo on Nov 15, 2009 12:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Or they could trade Wallace for a more conventional 3B

Lonnie Chisenhall? Josh Bell? Josh Vitters?

I think I’d rather stick with Wallace.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 12:39 PM PST up reply actions  

The fact that the A's have potential needs at 1B and DH

means that Wallace is probably worth more to them than to most potential trading partners. Certainly more than the Cubs, Orioles or Indians (the current homes of the above-mentioned three).

Also, in an unrelated observation, Josh Vitters sucks.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Unfortunately,

John Joseph III can’t even play OF.

No, there's no light,
in the darkest of your furthest reaches.

by danmerqury on Nov 15, 2009 11:39 AM PST up reply actions  

But his Christmas Mass was awesome.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 11:41 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't know

His rendition is not how I remember the scene on the lawn.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 11:52 AM PST up reply actions  

The Jack on the lawn was

John Joseph IV, not John Joseph III. I’m not sure who John Joseph II is.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 15, 2009 12:08 PM PST up reply actions  

John Joseph III's son.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Nov 15, 2009 12:19 PM PST up reply actions  

John Jacob Jingleheymersmith?

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 12:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Is it -smith now?

When I was a kid it was “Jingleheimerschmidt”.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 15, 2009 12:56 PM PST up reply actions  

It's Michael Ynoa too

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 12:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Tomatoes, tahmahtoes.

I have no clue, I haven’t sung that song in 15 years.

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 1:01 PM PST up reply actions  

I started singing it once

but I never made it to the end.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 15, 2009 1:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Did this situation involve a contraceptive and a time machine?

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 1:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Doesn't every situation?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 2:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Indeed it did

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Nov 15, 2009 2:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Am I really the only person here who is

fine with Kennedy as a stopgap measure?

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 5:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Probably.

As a 3Bman he offers below average defense, and a track record that suggests an “ok” bat lacking the power you’d ideally hope to get from your 3Bman — especially if he doesn’t field all that well.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 5:21 PM PST up reply actions  

I hear BroCro is available.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by UncleLeo on Nov 15, 2009 6:05 PM PST up reply actions  

I would rather have Crosby to Kennedy

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2009 6:27 PM PST up reply actions  

I would rather have Crosby.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2009 6:27 PM PST up reply actions  

I would rather

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 6:28 PM PST up reply actions  

I would

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 6:28 PM PST up reply actions  

I

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 6:29 PM PST up reply actions  

I hit cancel when i realized that I wasn't really replying to the correct comment

it didn’t show up as posted until the second one got posted.

< Submits myself for ritual flogging >

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2009 6:32 PM PST up reply actions  

My computer does that stuff all the time

It refuses to let me post, and then when I try again and it lets me it informs me, “Oh by the way I did let you post before.” Then it laughs and high-fives the microwave.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 6:37 PM PST up reply actions  

I thought you were going to say

your computer ritually flogs you all the time.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Nov 15, 2009 6:47 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't get the impression there's that much ritual involved

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 6:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Depends on how we're defining ritual

Your nightly flogging, for instance, is part of your nightly ritual. Your morning flogging is more random and, therefore, less ritualistic.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Nov 15, 2009 6:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Now I am confused

Bobby Crosby stinks on ice and there is no reason at all for anyone to prefer him.

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 6:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Shame on you.

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 6:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Cancel that

retort noted.

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 6:38 PM PST up reply actions  

In descending order of preference:

Ed
David
Blake
Bobby

Blake only ahead of Bobby because at least he’s comically bad.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 6:40 PM PST up reply actions  

You forgot Bing

and Norm for that matter.

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 6:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Bing was violent with his family

Yeah, still prefer him to Bobby.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 6:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Pffft....

Hell the only Crosby I would prefer less is Cathy Lee.

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 6:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Bing was violent with his family

Yeah, still prefer him to Bobby.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 6:46 PM PST up reply actions  

He did not field all that well

since he has not played 3rd base until this season I am giving him a pass on his D. He’s at least an average hitter which is more that can be said of any other 3B we’ve had in the last 4 years.

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 6:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Kennedy has a career slash line of

.277/.330/.391. I don’t know if you can say “He’s at least an average hitter.” I do think you can say, “If my 3Bman is at BEST an average hitter and should never be seen in the 3-6 spots in the order, then he at least better be a good fielder.”

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 6:48 PM PST up reply actions  

I'll give you that

but give him an offseason working at the position and see what happens. Hell even Scott Hatteberg turned into a passable defensive 1B, with marginal power. And 3B is a more demanding fielding position.

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 6:54 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't think you supported your point

It’s less likely a player can master a more demanding defensive position than an easy one. And Hatteberg was a better hitter than Kennedy.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 7:09 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not going to disagree with you on Hatte

I’ve always been a big Scott Hatteberg guy, but, his numbers aren’t overwhelmingly better than Kennedys over a career .273/.361/.410 btw, not exceptional for a IB/DH at any level). Granted Kennedy has never really been known for his bat, but I am saying that give me an Adam Kennedy working an entire offseason to prepare for a season starting at 3B and I’ll show you an acceptable stopgap for half a Major League season. And you wont break the bank signing an uncertainty like Troy Glaus.

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 7:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, I wouldn't sign Glaus to play 3B anyway

I’d sign him to DH and to play 3B/1B if or as needed.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 7:53 PM PST up reply actions  

I would hope not

I don’t know why he was even mentioned to play 3B.

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 7:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Because he's been a pretty good one,

and 3B is the black hole of suckitude for our lovable Muppets.

If Glaus could play 3B, and allow Cust to DH, it would fantabulous. And for all I know, he will be able to; I’m just not banking on it.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 7:59 PM PST up reply actions  

and if Holliday, Giambi, OCab

and Nomar didnt absolutely suck for most of 2009…

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 8:14 PM PST up reply actions  

if you fail, try try again.

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 8:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Depends what you mean.

I’m fine with Kennedy as a stopgap measure in the sense that I think he’ll be bad but what the heck if we’re bad it’s not the end of the world so whatever. But not in the sense that I think it’s actually a strong move.

Also it’s far more entertaining when you sign someone who is supposed to be bad but he finds the pixie dust and is actually good (Davis) than it is to sign guys who were supposed to be good but actually they suck (Giambi, Nomar).

That’s not to say you should intentionally sign guys who are supposed to suck, of course, but it’s a reason to not mind Kennedy so much. Particularly in contrast to some non-sure thing like, say, Glaus.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 15, 2009 7:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Oh its not a Contenders move by any stretch

but if we had any reasonable option, aside from Chavez’ health and Wallace’s youth and inexperience, there isn’t a better option until we know for sure. If Chavez can actually play 3rd and he is still a stopgap for Wallace, Kennedy is an good enough option. If that works out he becomes a either super utility player or gets released or traded at the deadline.

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 7:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Depends on the real future of 3rd base

If we’re really expecting Wallace to play third (or someone else internally) in the next year, then yes, it makes a certain sense. If Wallace really isn’t sticking at the third, then we’re waiting yet another year (after waiting 2 or 3 years) to actually fill the position with someone who should actually be there instead of dealing with the problem. In which case, Kennedy is a bad move as a stopgap to nothing.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Nov 15, 2009 7:58 PM PST up reply actions  

At the very least, the A's need to recognize

that this is an unknown. There is no certainty that Wallace will be the answer, even if the A’s believe, with more reason to believe, than some of AN do.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 8:00 PM PST up reply actions  

I think, whatever you consider the likelihood of him actually sticking there,

or being in any way non-terrible there, the A’s are going to give him a chance to show it, for better or for worse.

I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does

by bobnothing on Nov 15, 2009 8:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Probably

But I’d really hope they’d only commit to that if a more surer thing can’t be found over the off-season even if that means using an even uglier stopgap.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Nov 15, 2009 8:08 PM PST up reply actions  

His name is Jamey Carroll.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 8:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Jamey Carroll is indeed quite ugly

and not just in the baseball sense.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 8:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Given that we know these three things about him,

I’m assuming he got beat up a lot in school:

1. He’s ugly
2. He’s weak
3. His name is Jamey

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 8:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Why are we talking about this guy anyways?

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 8:26 PM PST up reply actions  

The A's have reportedly shown interest in him

Why, no one is quite sure.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 8:28 PM PST up reply actions  

wasn't there talk about Jamey Wright last year, too?

maybe it’s a thing

I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does

by bobnothing on Nov 15, 2009 8:29 PM PST up reply actions  

That players named Jamey suck?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 8:30 PM PST up reply actions  

and Beane feels sorry for them

hey, he’s not a heartless computer!

is he?

oh God, the crushing burden of realisation

I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does

by bobnothing on Nov 15, 2009 8:32 PM PST up reply actions  

does that include

Jamie Summers?

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 8:32 PM PST up reply actions  

He reminds

of a flatulent Boston Terrier.

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 8:30 PM PST up reply actions  

Ooh. Ruff.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 8:31 PM PST up reply actions  

better than porn star bredan ryan!

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 8:35 PM PST up reply actions  

yeah, I hope you're right

I must admit, I’d not be surprised if they gave him a pair of speedos and tossed him in the pool, so to speak

I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does

by bobnothing on Nov 15, 2009 8:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Too many questions

not enough answers. Of course answers are a prison to oneself anyways.

Maybe iit’s time we all swallow the fact that Chavez will never play 3B again, then we need to move to certainty that Wallace will be able to take over at some point this season.

Yes, Kennedy as a 1-3 year fill in is not a vaild option.

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 8:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Honestly (not directed at you), I think it's foolish

to “swallow the fact that Chavez will never play 3B again.” He’s:

1. under contract for 2010
2. planning to try to be ready for Opening Day, 2010
3. our most likely Opening Day 3Bman at the moment

Having a Plan B is a splendoriffic idea. Not recognizing that he’s the initial Plan A for one more year is like refusing to acknowledge that Pennington is a switch hitter.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 8:17 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm just burnt out on the

Eric Chavez Health and Fitness Program. If he can play, then great, problem solved…but what if he can’t?

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 8:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Then Plan B

Or likely, IMO, both. I believe Chavez will be the Opening Day 3Bman. I also believe someone else will be at 3B by mid-May.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 8:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Agreed

his name is Adam Kennedy.

I know that’s NOT who you are thinking of! ;)

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 8:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Honestly (directed partially at you because you said it), I think it would be foolish

to continue the “Chavez as plan A” plan anymore regardless of 1 & 2. In fact, it’s been foolish for the last two years. Plan A absolutely needs to be someone NOT named Chavez. Chavez can be plan B or C, but he’s in no position to be counted on in any sense and any GM who think #3 should be fired, Beane included.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Nov 15, 2009 8:26 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't think you're grasping the concept of "Plan A"

Plan A isn’t the likeliest one, it’s the best-case scenario one. Best-case scenario is that the guy you’re paying millions to anyway, who happens to be your most accomplished option by far, can go.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 8:30 PM PST up reply actions  

and my point...

is that until he proves himself healthy he should not be considered Plan A. Maybe Plan R, but that’s another movie.

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 8:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Oh, I get the idea of best case scenario

But really, best case scenario you get A-Rod from the Yankees with his salary covered AND for no prospects. Incidentally, that has about as good a chance of happening as Chavez playing third again.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Nov 15, 2009 8:36 PM PST up reply actions  

I think he CAN play 3rd again

maybe he’ll get that Adrian Beltre Contract year-its and really wake the f up!!!

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 8:39 PM PST up reply actions  

We disagree on the definition of "Plan A", then.

“Plan A” is the best AND most likely to actually happen. Chavez will… most likely… be an utter fail at the likely to happen part.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by UncleLeo on Nov 15, 2009 11:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Huh?

So what happens if the best plan is not the most likely to happen? Does that mean there is no such thing as Plan A? Do the plans start from Plan B? Do you number them instead?

Semantic tussles are typically pointless, but this one really takes the cake.

[Incidentally, I no longer believe Chavez IS the best option at third base, even stipulating his health. I don’t think he’ll be the defender or the hitter he once was.]

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 11:40 PM PST up reply actions  

I love it when a plan comes together!

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 16, 2009 4:55 AM PST up reply actions  

Bingo! Give this man a cigar.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by UncleLeo on Nov 15, 2009 11:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Eric Chavez
Maybe iit’s time we all swallow the fact that Chavez will never play 3B again

I think most of us swallowed that long ago and have pooped it out already.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 15, 2009 9:51 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Seems like many of us are still holding out hope...

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 10:13 PM PST up reply actions  

or at least just trying to hold it in

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 16, 2009 4:56 AM PST up reply actions  

bravo nico

"They (The 1989 A's) are the best team I ever saw"- Mike Krukow

by 9Custs on Nov 15, 2009 4:59 PM PST up reply actions  

9bravos?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 5:00 PM PST up reply actions  

If we're going to make signings

I want Sheets and/or Glaus. The former buys time for some of the SP’s that aren’t yet ready (Cahill?) to work that out in AAA, while having the upside of a good/great starter. The latter maybe buys time for Brett Wallace, but more likely just provides somewhat of an offensive upgrade to our ‘power hitter’, while not blocking anyone long term.

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 9:47 AM PST reply actions  

Good points.

If he’s thought to finally be really healthy, Pavano also might be a decent addition without breaking the bank.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 9:49 AM PST up reply actions  

Yes sir...

Pavano, Penny, Duke, or Sheets works for me!

The foundational Western philosophical quote; "I think, therefore I am..." applies to everyone except Booby "the joke" Crozby

by MMunoz33 on Nov 15, 2009 9:52 AM PST up reply actions  

I like Penny, Duke, or Sheets

Pavano can be decent, but he doesn’t have the absolute stud upside of the other three pitchers. Of course, if he costs less, which means we can sign Glaus or the like, then maybe I like him more…

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 9:55 AM PST up reply actions  

I could see Pavano being a "solid #3"

and with Anderson and Braden perhaps ready to rise to the mantel of #1/#2, adding a veteran who is a solid #3 might be a significant addition. It allows Cahill, Mazzaro, and Gio to fill only 2 slots which is good (because the worst of the three will probably suck the proverbial goat balls).

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 10:05 AM PST up reply actions  

Ya

but I could also see Pavano being a “solid # DL”, a la Yankees years. I know all the other guys are injury risks, but per innings pitched, they will have a lot more value. I guess it depends on who we can get. I would think that Duke would be our best shot.

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 10:08 AM PST up reply actions  

If we're looking for a slightly below average innings eater, I'd take Jon Garland

over Pavano. His health record is a lot better.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 10:10 AM PST up reply actions  

Yes sir...

The foundational Western philosophical quote; "I think, therefore I am..." applies to everyone except Booby "the joke" Crozby

by MMunoz33 on Nov 15, 2009 10:11 AM PST up reply actions  

To DLJ, this is kind of the point of this post

The fact Pavano is that risk is why he might be signable. So it’s more about shrewdly assessing his 2010 health than it is about shying away because there’s a potential for disaster.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 10:29 AM PST up reply actions  

Can we get someone other than the A's to assess his health?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 10:32 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

The Angels team doctor seems pretty good.

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 6:55 PM PST up reply actions  

For all we know, Angels fans are wondering why

Lackey, Escobar, and Santana all got hurt, along with Shields and Speier. It just doesn’t sting quite as much when you win 97 games anyway.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 7:10 PM PST up reply actions  

I am assuming it is because team doctors aren't

as hands on with strength and conditioning.

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 7:50 PM PST up reply actions  

I understand that

but like i said, unless he’s significantly cheaper than the other three mentioned, I’d rather have a guy with higher upside. I’m not saying not to sign him, just saying that I’d rather have the other three, all things being equal.

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 10:38 AM PST up reply actions  

That's a little unfair don't you think?

To the goat I mean….

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox

by mrod on Nov 15, 2009 10:34 AM PST up reply actions  

Is Nico allowed to discuss goats again now?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 10:44 AM PST up reply actions  

Depends on the context

If you give me a specific example, I’ll be happy to ask the judge.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 11:00 AM PST up reply actions  

that prospect scares me

sincerely, the goat

The A's. The SWINGING A's. That's right, the SWINGING A's.

by eastcoasta'sfan on Nov 15, 2009 8:12 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not sure I've heard a proverb in which goat balls are sucked, either

but then, I had a sheltered upbringing

I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does

by bobnothing on Nov 15, 2009 8:14 PM PST up reply actions  

You don't remember

Joseph And The Goat Of Many Colors?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 8:19 PM PST up reply actions  

You don't remember

Joseph And The Goat Of Many Colors?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 8:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Proverbs 27:27

And yes, I’m going to hell.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 15, 2009 9:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Nice ideas however

Sheets already signed with the Rangers, he’s wetting his pants wanting to play for them, I dont like the odds of him playing anywhere else, if he does play again (there’s a rumor he might be done).

Glaus cant hurt, can stand at 3B and hit HR and get on base, I have no problem with him as a 1 year fill-in.

by PL78 on Nov 15, 2009 12:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Like I said

out of the injured/upside four, I think Duke would be the easiest/most realistic to sign. He knows Oakland, and so far I haven’t heard him say he hates it.

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 12:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Depression speaks louder than words.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 12:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Clinical depression is not the same thing as "feeling bad because your life sucks"

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 1:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Ask your doctor if Abilify is right for you

{may cause vomiting, headaches, dizziness, seizures, death, hives, and the urge to start Bobby Crosby}

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 2:18 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Ask your doctor if Abilify is right for you

{may cause vomiting, headaches, dizziness, seizures, death, hives, and the urge to start Bobby Crosby}

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 2:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Ask your doctor if Ability is right for you

If yes, you’re not Bobby Crosby

The A's. The SWINGING A's. That's right, the SWINGING A's.

by eastcoasta'sfan on Nov 15, 2009 8:13 PM PST up reply actions  

I doubt there's a connection between his clinical depression

and his being on the A’s.

The issue of his history of physical injuries probably is of more concern when the A’s consider whether to sign him. That also may keep other teams from offering too much for him Perhaps a short-term, incentive-laden contract will be what he ends up accepting.

by OaklandSi on Nov 15, 2009 1:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Hmm...Don't know

There’s certainly a connection between my clinical depression and my rooting for the A’s.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 2:18 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I blame them only for my road rage.

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 5:19 PM PST up reply actions  

And the Rangers have lost money since

Sheets may love to sign with the Rangers, but two problems have arisen since he failed their physical: the Rangers have lost a ton of money, and Sheets has been more severely injured than was thought.

The Rangers may be the favorite to sign him but the status quo has certainly changed.

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Nov 15, 2009 1:33 PM PST up reply actions  

I am coming around to signing Glaus to a 1 year incentive laden contract

We need to be realistic – I cannot see Chavez contributing anything, and Wallace likely won’t be ready until mid season. Glaus would provide some much needed power and wouldn’t force Cust into the field, assuming the usual Chavez injury.

by DeJay on Nov 15, 2009 9:57 AM PST reply actions  

and if he breaks, it's only money!

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 9:59 AM PST up reply actions  

for Chavez or Glaus?

:)

The foundational Western philosophical quote; "I think, therefore I am..." applies to everyone except Booby "the joke" Crozby

by MMunoz33 on Nov 15, 2009 10:10 AM PST up reply actions  

Scott Hairston.

Oops.

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 10:22 AM PST up reply actions  

How convinced are you that Glaus can actually play 3B?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 10:11 AM PST up reply actions  

Personally, I suspect he can play it

as a stopgap/bridge between, say, Chavez (April) and Wallace (June) but that he can’t play it regularly for 1/2 a season without likely going the Nomar/Giambi route of “less was more and you asked for more so you got less.” Who’s Les?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 10:32 AM PST up reply actions  

Nessman?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 10:38 AM PST up reply actions  

Somebody buy that man a door!

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Nov 15, 2009 3:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Im really not which DQs him in my book

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 15, 2009 11:45 AM PST up reply actions  

He had a +5 UZR/150 in his last full season in 2008

I am not sure how much his injury has effected his fielding but I think he could at least be ok as a stop gap if/when Chavez gets injured. I think Glaus playing 1B and OF last year probably had more to do with DeRosa than the Cardinals thinking he could play a passable third.

by DeJay on Nov 15, 2009 11:34 AM PST up reply actions  

Well they acquired DeRosa because Glaus couldn't play 3B.

He started 4 games at 3B in 2009, and was terrible.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 11:37 AM PST up reply actions  

He was initially supposed to be out half the season, but his injury didn't improve

as well as hoped. They got DeRosa mid-season because he wasn’t coming back anytime soon. I don’t see how we can expect him to be anything more than an emergency 3B.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 11:51 AM PST up reply actions  

Right, but the point is that

Glaus couldn’t play 3B in 2009 for the same reason he couldn’t play at all — his injury. There’s nothing I’ve seen to suggest that if healthy, Glaus couldn’t play 3B now. But I also wouldn’t try to run him out there 130 times — I think those days for Glaus are over.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 11:54 AM PST up reply actions  

I'd think shoulder injuries would affect throwing more than hitting

It’s like putting Ellis at SS or 3B

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 11:57 AM PST up reply actions  

Oh come on --

What are the odds that if you pencil in a 3Bman who’s been injured, he won’t be able to play and you’ll be totally screwed?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 11:58 AM PST up reply actions  

What are the odds of penciling in two 3B who've been injured and

neither will be able to play? I bet no one’s even tried this!

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 12:11 PM PST up reply actions  

They could platoon!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 12:12 PM PST up reply actions  

The DL has a platoon?

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 12:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Not yet. We're thinking outside the box.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 12:52 PM PST up reply actions  

our DL is beyond a platoon

it’s a full strength company

The A's. The SWINGING A's. That's right, the SWINGING A's.

by eastcoasta'sfan on Nov 15, 2009 8:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Ironically, one without health benefits.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 8:20 PM PST up reply actions  

if he cant play 3B

Im sure he could play a passable 1B

by PL78 on Nov 15, 2009 12:43 PM PST up reply actions  

HOW CAN YOU JUST SAY THAT A GUY CAN PLAY A POSITION PASSABLY

THAT ISN’T THE POSITION HE’S BEEN PLAYING?????22222222

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 2:19 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Because all of this Bill James defensive spectrum BS is a lie,

and all defenders are truly interchangable!

Just stick Cust at third already!

Errors, schmerrors! A real player will hit a home run in his next at-bat to make up for an error!

Just feed ’em some tin cans and put ’em on the field!

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Nov 15, 2009 3:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Can you?

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 8:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Adam Dunn begs to differ.

No, there's no light,
in the darkest of your furthest reaches.

by danmerqury on Nov 15, 2009 9:13 PM PST up reply actions  

If they're going to use Wallace at 3B, I wouldn't even mind getting someone like Augie

Ojeda at SS. If he’s really a +10 defender (UZR is +11 in 154 games), then I’d take a -20 offensive player there. The catch is, of course, that he might be even worse than a -20, but I doubt he’d cost much to find out. For those into positional adjustments:

Defense: +10
Offense: -20
Position: +12

Total: +2

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 10:31 AM PST reply actions  

On paper, Ojeda looks a lot like Pennington

Why not just run with Pennington for league minimum and not give up a player to get Ojeda?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 10:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Because a GB and lefty staff makes SS defense more important than on an average team.

They need a utility guy in addition, anyway and I can see Pennington, and later Cardenas, being that.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 10:40 AM PST up reply actions  

I guess if Ojeda is that much better than Pennington

I can see Pennington being a very good defensive SS next year. I can’t see him likely batting better than .230/.300/.350, which is why I’m not all that high on him, but defensively I saw enough good things to think he can be above average for a full season.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 11:02 AM PST up reply actions  

UZR has Pennington at -7/150 last year.

He’d have to improve a lot just to become average. He probably is a lot better than Ojeda at the plate though.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 11:08 AM PST up reply actions  

I think a lot of Pennington's shortcomings last year

came in bursts of suckitude that compromised his numbers. I thought that 90% of the time he played a well above average SS and that the other 10% is reasonably likely to decrease with more experience/comfort — similar to what we saw from Rajai Davis this season.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 11:12 AM PST up reply actions  

Hmmm... so you think he can be a +5 or so?

If so then he’d be a good overall SS, because he can definitely be average offensively for the position. Still something like Buck for Ojeda or some other strong defender at SS might be an OK idea, in case Clifton still sucks defensively.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 11:18 AM PST up reply actions  

I think he can

But I don’t know he can. I guess with Ojeda, you have that as a track record.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 11:19 AM PST up reply actions  

Miguel Cabrerra

According to Boston.com, Miguel Cabrerra might be available for the right asking price. That’s 22mil/year through 2015. I know that’s a third of our payroll, but that’s Pujos offensive talent at first or DH for 5 years. What does the community think? What do you think it would take to get him, and can we pull it off without giving up Wallce, Carter, Anderson and Cahill?

by StewCrew on Nov 15, 2009 10:33 AM PST reply actions  

Hmmmmmm......

Actually, it would probably take Wallace, Carter, Anderson, and Cahill to get him.

"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra

by brenarlo on Nov 15, 2009 10:39 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't think it would take that, given that he's making $22M/year.

In fact, if they would take Bonderman or Dontrelle too, they could probably have him for something like Doolittle, Demel and Simmons.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 10:43 AM PST up reply actions  

Not a chance in hell...

That would be giving away one of the top hitters in baseball. Not gonna happen.

"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra

by brenarlo on Nov 15, 2009 10:49 AM PST up reply actions  

What do you see Boston giving up for him?

Maybe Kalish, Tazawa and Bowden?

What if they took back Bonderman/Dontrelle? Kalish and Rizzo? Maybe Anderson instead of Rizzo?

Does anyone think Boston is giving up Westmoreland or Kelly?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 11:05 AM PST up reply actions  

i don't know enough about Boston's system...

But just because Detroit might trade him doesn’t mean they’re looking to dump him for nothing. Look at what Haren got for the A’s. Granted Haren’s contract was more affordable, but still…

You’d be looking at 3 of a team’s top 5 prospects… at least.

"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra

by brenarlo on Nov 15, 2009 11:14 AM PST up reply actions  

Talent is irrelevant

Contract is everything. Cabrera’s contract is already paying him to be what he is. If anything, he’s probably OVERpaid by it, because a decline phase is likely at the end.

Maybe someone will be dumb enough to trade talent for Cabrera, but it won’t be Oakland— and that’s a damn good thing.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 11:20 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Exactly...

No team will give up talent… Detroit will require talent in return.

"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra

by brenarlo on Nov 15, 2009 11:23 AM PST up reply actions  

I would offer Cahill+Wallace for Mig-Cab

We get the 3rd best hitter in baseball and a near-lock for the HOF. Stick him at 1B and we have guaranteed offense, something we’ve never had before. You trade Wallace for Cabrera without thinking, Cahill seals the deal and luckily we have enough internal depth to cover losing him.

But thats dreaming, I know it, PT knows it and already told me in another thread.

by PL78 on Nov 15, 2009 12:47 PM PST up reply actions  

How do you figure Cabrera as the 3rd best hitter in baseball?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 12:51 PM PST up reply actions  

based off

1. age
2. performance over the last 3-5 years

Pujols 1, Mauer 2, Cabrera 3

by PL78 on Nov 15, 2009 12:53 PM PST up reply actions  

If you're using wOBA,

he comes in at a cool 15th in baseball over the last 3 years.

If (perish the thought) one were actually to take defense and position into account, as WAR does, he comes in 20th.

Star player, sure, but he’s being paid like one.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 1:31 PM PST up reply actions  

And he has a track record of being a drunken idiot...

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Nov 15, 2009 3:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, look closely enough and I suspect you'll find most athletes

or, indeed, most males have a track record of being drunken idiots…

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 4:12 PM PST up reply actions  

That's sexist!

Most females do too.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 4:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, but when

males are drunken idiots it results in destruction of property and bodily injury to innocent bystanders. Whereas when females are drunken idiots, it results in entertaining images posted to the Internet. Which one do you like better?

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 15, 2009 7:41 PM PST up reply actions  

No, when females are drunken idiots

it results in giving birth 9 months later. And half the time they give birth to males. See the problem?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 7:54 PM PST up reply actions  

You hate competition.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Nov 15, 2009 7:59 PM PST up reply actions  

why would I take defense and position into account when i specifically say “best HITTER” in baseball?

by PL78 on Nov 15, 2009 8:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, the concept of "who is the best hitter" is, ultimately, meaningless trivia

because it is only loosely related to who the best player is.

However, as I pointed out, even if you restrict it to offense, he’s not even close to top 3.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 8:34 PM PST up reply actions  

-1

Talent does not become irrelevant. Talent + playing time = production. Production leads to runs and runs lead to wins.

Not that I’m overly eager to see the A’s pursue Cabrera.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2009 12:48 PM PST up reply actions  

The difference is Haren was a $20M player making $6M for two more years.

Cabrera is a $20M player making $20M. The extra $28M in surplus value buys a lotta prospects.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 11:20 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Shouldn't

He’s being paid basically what he’s worth on the open market. Ergo, it shouldn’t take ANYTHING to get him.

Any team that attempts to trade for Cabrera will be paying a “saving Dave Dombrowski’s ass/job” premium. Personally, I’m not too thrilled with that prospect.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 11:17 AM PST up reply actions  

Well this would be true if the objective was to maximize surplus contract value, and

you were indifferent to wins. In real life a $20M player making $20M is worth more than a $500K player making $500K. And rightly so.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 11:21 AM PST up reply actions  

Again, the only reason why that is so is publicity

It wouldn’t sound good to trade Miguel Cabrera for Cliff Pennington.

When the spotlight is off, GMs behave as though win value is completely linear.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 11:24 AM PST up reply actions  

They might behave that way, but they shouldn't.

A $20M player takes up one roster spot and one lineup spot. To get $20M in value from 5 players takes up 5 roster spots. I guess the downside is that one player getting injured is more likely than 5, but that logic leads to signing Esteban Loaiza and Mark Kotsay and Jason Kendall and Mike Piazza instead of just Alex Rodriguez or Ichiro Suzuki.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 11:29 AM PST up reply actions   2 recs

If you want someone to explain WHY that happens,

you need a behavioral economist, and I’m not one, so…

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 11:40 AM PST up reply actions  

This is exactly right.

I’ve noticed that since it has become popular to evaluate players by simply matching WAR value to salary, many have neglected to factor in the value of a roster spot.

To take it to the extreme, the standard lazy method assumes that the $20M player is equivalent to 40 guys worth $500K of WAR each. But sign those 40 guys and you’ve filled your roster, and half of them won’t get any playing time.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 15, 2009 12:18 PM PST up reply actions  

and you're not getting additional WAR from any other roster spot

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 12:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Of course it reduces to absurdity at the extremes

There are plenty of mathematical functions which do bizarre, insane things at the extremes, yet look very linear for what are, in reality, the relevant sections.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 1:33 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

In this case I'm not sure so it's a flaw to view this in an extreme like this

so much as supporting a point that consolidating WAR in a single roster spot has more value than spreading it out amongst many spots, if only because it gives you an opportunity to fill those unused spots with better players. (i.e. having a 5 WAR player is better than replacing him with 5 one-WAR players since you have the potential to have the 5 WAR player and 4 one or better WAR players). How much value likely depends on just how good that individual player is relative to who’d be replacing him, but at the very least “some”.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Nov 15, 2009 3:01 PM PST up reply actions  

OK, so we know that the value of concentrating WAR is:

1. not zero,
2. not large enough to make GMs take serious notice.

That’s a pretty small range actually.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 3:33 PM PST up reply actions  

It would have to be pretty small

if GMs don’t take particular notice. So, yeah, ultimately in a more practical discussion, while it may be there, it’s not likely to be particularly relevant.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Nov 15, 2009 4:07 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not sure why you're resisting this

I thought you were the one who not so long ago made the case so eloquently for the value of concentrating WAR.

Perhaps it was someone else and I’m remembering wrong.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 15, 2009 7:46 PM PST up reply actions  

It might have been me

If so, I’ve had a conversion experience. Or else was just arguing the devil’s advocate position at the time. Or was just dicking around.

Or something.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 8:02 PM PST up reply actions  

You don't need to go to the extremes to make the argument

Sticking with position players, you can only have 9 guys in the line-up at a time. Therefore if you have the overall payroll flexibility to afford a $22 million annual contract AND the roster depth to fill the other 8 spots in the line-up with better than replacement level players then it makes sense to spend the money if you expect to at least break even in the transaction.

There is nothing wrong with getting what you pay for.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2009 3:52 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Could you repeat that last line to the lady I was with last night?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 3:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Maybe she was using a different exchange rate?

Thus the lack satisfaction.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2009 3:58 PM PST up reply actions  

My rate of exchange is really none of your business.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 4:00 PM PST up reply actions  

When she called and said "come quickly!"

apparently I misunderstood.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 4:53 PM PST up reply actions  

OK, but the proffered trade

involved not merely the expenditure of $22M a season, but also the expenditure of prospects with a huge projected surplus value on top of that.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 4:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Which is why I'm not in favor of trading for Cabrera

The A’s might might be able to handle the money end of the equation but I doubt they’d be able to field the rest of the roster.

Your argument that talent is irrelevant and the contract everything; that the A’s should be able to swap Moneypenny straight up for Cabrera based on… not sure how to phrase this… $$$/WAR efficiency is what brings me into this mix.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2009 4:33 PM PST up reply actions  

I have to say, I find it more than a little weird to find myself

on the classical-economics-rational-actors-yay side of this argument. Normally I take a hatchet to those positions.

But I don’t really see the justification for it here.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 4:38 PM PST up reply actions  

The justification does not exist for Oakland in this case

As an overall concept (justifying paying full value for 5 WAR) there are times when it makes sense.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2009 4:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Hold on

I didn’t say paying full (that is to say, market-rate) value for 5 WAR is a bad idea. As between paying that and paying 5 free agents to be 1 WAR, I totally and completely endorse the 5 WAR guy, because he’s so much less likely to break down and become useless.

What I said was paying MORE than full value is a bad idea.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 8:05 PM PST up reply actions  

And I agree

Paying $20 for a $15 item is dumb.

But you seemed to be arguing that the A’s shouldn’t have to part with any players to acquire Cabrera because they’d be paying for it just by taking on his full contract. Which would certainly help Detroit’s finances, but they’d probably rather the A’s took Mags under those terms.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 16, 2009 5:30 AM PST up reply actions  

Is this why we routinely see teams "give" away players for nothing in return?

Oh, wait…

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by UncleLeo on Nov 16, 2009 7:14 AM PST up reply actions  

I have Alex Rios on line one, and Esteban Loaiza on line two

The phones are ringing off the hook!

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 16, 2009 9:55 AM PST up reply actions  

Key word: "routinely"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/routine

1 a : a regular course of procedure
1 b : habitual or mechanical performance of an established procedure

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by UncleLeo on Nov 16, 2009 12:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Fabulous

What is “regular course of procedure”?

And how is any of this relevant to anything?

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 16, 2009 3:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Righteous indignation is always a good defense. LOL!

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by UncleLeo on Nov 16, 2009 4:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Of course they would, but Ordonez's contract actually has NEGATIVE value

This is not uncommon for the tail end of long free agent contracts (coughChavezcough). There’s no way you could give away the Ordonez deal. $18M this year, plus if you actually play the guy you risk triggering another $15M for next year? Ouch.

He also has a no-trade clause. I think it’s fairly safe to say that Ordonez’s contract is “unmovable.”

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 16, 2009 9:59 AM PST up reply actions  

Tail end of long contracts

Don’t you mean beginning, middle and end for Chavez?

And yeah, Detroit’s stuck with Mags, Robertson, Willis and Bonderman. That’s $52.5 million in 2010 salary.

Not good.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 16, 2009 10:26 AM PST up reply actions  

No, just the middle and end

The beginning of Chavez’s contract was excellent. In the first two years, he was paid $18M for play that Fangraphs values at $27.6M.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 16, 2009 3:05 PM PST up reply actions  

The snark works better the way I wrote it

Please don’t use facts to take away what little humor there is in this situation.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 16, 2009 5:14 PM PST up reply actions  

You must have missed my slogan

“Using facts to stand in the way of humor since 1984.”

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 16, 2009 6:16 PM PST up reply actions  

I thought you were 23 not 25.

Interesting.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 17, 2009 5:45 PM PST up reply actions  

He's probably just

24 +/- 1. The more stat-oriented fans know not to produce any number without a fair margin for error.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 17, 2009 8:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Nope

although I considered using 1986 as the date because I don’t think I knew how to talk before then…

I think it says I’m 23 in my profile but that’s because I haven’t bothered to change it since I signed up for SBN.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 17, 2009 10:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Alas I thought you were the same age as me

but Im 2 years younger.

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 18, 2009 5:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Inge is probably more in the A's range...

The foundational Western philosophical quote; "I think, therefore I am..." applies to everyone except Booby "the joke" Crozby

by MMunoz33 on Nov 15, 2009 10:40 AM PST up reply actions  

But Inge is a terrible hitter with a big ego who whines when not starting.

(waits for instructions to read Nico’s post)

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 10:46 AM PST up reply actions  

but but but Inge was in the HR derby...

The foundational Western philosophical quote; "I think, therefore I am..." applies to everyone except Booby "the joke" Crozby

by MMunoz33 on Nov 15, 2009 10:53 AM PST up reply actions  

Plus you can pronounce his name like "Inga"

and pretend he’s a Swedish supermodel.

That’s good for something.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 15, 2009 11:16 AM PST up reply actions  

I'd rather have

the actual swedish super model. Or Jennie Finch, but that’s another thread.

by el generico on Nov 15, 2009 3:49 PM PST up reply actions  

She could be our 5th starter

Can’t wait for the poster!

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 5:08 PM PST up reply actions  

I think Finch would be better in the pen...

But I wonder what adjustments would have to be made to change her flat-ground delivery to an effective submarine delivery…

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Nov 16, 2009 4:09 PM PST up reply actions  

What if whining is the new undervalued commodity?

Bradley, Inge — get ’er done, Billy! Maybe even trade for Hamels (selling point: “Cole, we will get you to the off-season really fast!”)

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 11:06 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I think we discussed in another thread that 'douchbaggery, or the perception thereof, deserved or otherwise'

was almost certainly a new factor that Beane should be looking at.

In non-related news, Josh Towers.

I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does

by bobnothing on Nov 15, 2009 7:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Did he run over a puppy?

If he threw a fastball at one, the puppy is probably fine.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 7:13 PM PST up reply actions  

I know that Josh Towers is not good at baseball

but I would buy tickets to see him pitch.

I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does

by bobnothing on Nov 15, 2009 7:20 PM PST up reply actions  

Why? I'm not saying you shouldn't, just wondering

what it is about Josh Towers that earns your hard earned cash to watch throw a baseball.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 7:24 PM PST up reply actions  

I just like his style

I’m not sure I can explain it more than that.

He has a fine line in throwing at players I don’t especially like, and I see this shaping up to be a lonnnng season, so, yknow. Gotta have some sort of entertainment.

In no way should they do this as any sort of baseball move, mind. Just to be clear on that.

I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does

by bobnothing on Nov 15, 2009 7:58 PM PST up reply actions  

I just like his style

I’m not sure I can explain it more than that.

He has a fine line in throwing at players I don’t especially like, and I see this shaping up to be a lonnnng season, so, yknow. Gotta have some sort of entertainment.

In no way should they do this as any sort of baseball move, mind. Just to be clear on that.

I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does

by bobnothing on Nov 15, 2009 7:58 PM PST up reply actions  

woof...

We like puppy chow here at AN…

by MMunoz33 on Nov 23, 2009 11:37 AM PST up reply actions  

I've always liked Inge

I wanted the A’s to trade for him right after the Tigers got Cabrera, and there were briefly rumors that Inge could be traded.

He plays well at 3B, has power, can catch if needed, and is still young. So he did publicly omplain when it appeared that he wouldn’t have a position on the team. That’s not a wise thing to do, but I certainly wouldn’t use that as a reason not to trade for him.

by OaklandSi on Nov 15, 2009 11:36 AM PST up reply actions  

Inge makes $6.6M next year. I guess that's not terrible.

If he can be had for Buck or something like that, I guess he could be an option. I’d even throw in Casilla.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 11:40 AM PST up reply actions  

Given the salary crunch Detroit is in,

it would not surprise me if he could be had on a waiver claim.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 11:42 AM PST up reply actions  

That would surprise me, just because someone else will likely offer something

for him. Phillies for example need to replace Feliz and Inge can be had on a one-year deal, unlike Beltre. A 1.5-2 WAR guy making $6.6M is worth something, especially if he’s as versatile as Inge.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 11:47 AM PST up reply actions  

on the other hand, he's 32 and made twice as much $$ as Cust in 2009

the money issue doesn’t argue well for trading for him, even if he did hit 27 HRs last season and can handle 3B. His OPS is lower than you’d want (how much is him individually, how much is being part of a free swinging team?)

by OaklandSi on Nov 15, 2009 11:42 AM PST up reply actions  

Perhaps Inge was just "Jaypaytoning"

Trying to get traded to a team that would play him every day. I agree with y’all — Inge is another smart trade target for the A’s right now.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 11:55 AM PST up reply actions  

yeah I always mean to look at

Oriole box scores just to see how he’s doing.

I'll have a sandwich and a draft(sic). - Bill King (RIP)

by BleedGreen on Nov 15, 2009 5:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Is Detroit going to pick up a portion of that salary ala Ken Doll?

If the price was right I’d pull the trigger on that any day of the week that ends in the letter “y”.

Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox

by mrod on Nov 15, 2009 10:36 AM PST reply actions  

I love Shin-Soo Choo

Is there any indication that he’s actually available?

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 15, 2009 11:18 AM PST reply actions  

Not that I've heard

But I could see Cleveland being willing to move him as part of what looks like another rebuild post C. Lee / V. Martinez.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 11:21 AM PST up reply actions  

He'd be expensive to get though.

They’d probably want something like Cardenas, Weeks and Mazzaro or something like that.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 11:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Hrmm,

I’d say no to that deal. Not sure if that means I just don’t want Choo for what he would cost, or I just happen to like the prospects you picked out. Is Cardenas-Weeks-Mazzaro equivalent to Cahill-Desme-Demel? I’d rather give up the latter.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 15, 2009 12:26 PM PST up reply actions  

My wild guesses at how these guys will be seen by the prospect experts is something like

Cardenas — B (Sickels), 3-Star (Goldstein), #5 BA Oakland Top 10
Weeks — B, 3-Star, #4
Desme - B, 2-Star, #10
Demel — C+, Unranked, #19

I think Cahill is probably worth more than Mazzaro, because he was more highly regarded a year ago, and Mazzaro had an injury.

Overall I doubt your package would be as highly regarded as mine. I’d do Cahill, Desme and Demel in a heartbeat for Choo.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 12:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Desme was supposed to be a B minus

I haven’t mastered the formatting thing here.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 12:41 PM PST up reply actions  

There's no way those star rankings are accurate

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 1:35 PM PST up reply actions  

I would love to get him as well

Does anyone know what we would need to give up to get him?

Ok that note how about sizemore?

by Twan54321 on Nov 15, 2009 7:20 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Question for PT -- what would you see a package including Choo looking like,

given the two teams’ needs and a trade that was fair to both sides?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 11:23 AM PST reply actions  

I see a 400 comment post a-comin' round the bend

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 11:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Nah

This shouldn’t be hard, I already know it’s a bad idea even before I start looking at the details…

His James projection actually looks pretty reasonable (I don’t say THAT often)… I think he projects as about a 3.7 WAR player going forward, with 4 years remaining before free agency.

That’s worth about $60M minus what he gets paid in arbitration (15, 20?). So the A’s need to come up with a pile of prospects worth about $40M. You’re probably looking at something like Chris Carter (a top 50 prospect hitter) plus two B pitching prospects, so something like Carter/Leon/Cahill. And there might be a “getting Cleveland to trade him” penalty, too.

Why is this a bad idea? Because it upgrades an already sound position. The team’s internal replacement level is higher than zero (much higher, in fact— I think it’s basically league average). The actual upgrade provided by Choo? Not so large. The cost to get him? Very large. If Choo was worth exactly the same thing and played shortstop (in other words, if he was named Yunel Escobar), the deal might make sense.

Any trade for a left fielder is going to, on its face, be a bad idea unless it’s unfair to the other team.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 11:38 AM PST up reply actions  

Escobar could probably be had for Carter, Leon and Cahill

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 11:48 AM PST up reply actions  

Leaving Leon and Cahill out of that equation...

Would you rather have Barton and Escobar for the next few seasons or Carter and Pennington/Greene?

This is really simplifying things, but assuming everyone reaches their projections for the next few seasons, I’d probably rather than Carter and Pennington/Greene. Of course we’d also still have Leon and Cahill.

"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra

by brenarlo on Nov 15, 2009 11:51 AM PST up reply actions  

I think it's pretty close, but I'd not trade Carter at the moment for anything other than a Top

25 prospect. And since that’s highly improbable, I’d not trade him at all.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 12:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Yep I agree with you.

"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra

by brenarlo on Nov 15, 2009 12:24 PM PST up reply actions  

If you leave them out of the equation, I'd much rather have Barton/Escobar

Much rather. Carter is so awful at defense that unless he turns into a Prince Fielder type of monster hitter, he’s going to be worth less than Escobar, and it’s very difficult to make a case that Barton is worse than Pennington.

Now, is that gap enough to make up for losing Cahill and Leon? Eh, maybe not.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 1:40 PM PST up reply actions  

That makes sense.

So Choo is a great player, but not a good target for the A’s.

Thanks for talking us through the logic on this, Paul.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 15, 2009 12:28 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not as convinced, though, that the A's COF is ok

If Raj busts — as PT seems to believe is very likely — then Sweeney may need to shift back to CF, leaving the corners exceptionally barren. Hairston is useful about 1/4 of the time, which is about how often Buck is even healthy (and about how often Cunningham currently strikes out).

And not one of the A’s OFers provides any meaningful power or should be hitting in the middle of the order (i.e. 3-6), certainly not against the 3/4 of the league that throws right-handed.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 2:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Cunningham deserves some playing time though.

Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM

by travdog6 on Nov 15, 2009 3:12 PM PST up reply actions  

I agree -- I see him moving into Hairston's role

and then trying to prove he’s good enough to play every day. Also, he could start at AAA and then come up when he’s ready to actually stay up for good.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 3:34 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't think it's likely that he will bust to the point of providing no value at all

I don’t expect a black hole type performance in CF. If he’s a 1 WAR player next year, that sort of sucks, but at least it gives the team time to find a replacement.

I also appear to have a significantly higher opinion of Hairston than you do. And I don’t really care about power, lineup position, or anything much other than how good a player’s whole package is.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 3:37 PM PST up reply actions  

You might like Hairston more than I do, but I'm certainly

not as down on him as the average ANer. Still, you have to concede that:

1. He has had about a Buck-level frequency of injuries (his career high in games played is currently 112).

2. He has a career OBP of .287 against RHP (.415 SLG, .702 OPS).

I’m surprised the second fact doesn’t bother you more; it’s kind of a a big problem.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 3:50 PM PST up reply actions  

His GP total is low because he has generally been shielded from RHP or backing up,

not so much because of injuries.

The second point doesn’t bug me that much because I regress all large observed platoon splits a long way toward the mean, because he’s been significantly better in recent years than in his early MLB time, and because even in the last ditch, a guy who puts up a full-season .702 OPS and plays average CF or good corner OF is worth 1 WAR or so over a full season… meaning he’d be worth .75 (assuming 3/4 of opposing pitchers are righthanded) plus what he amasses against lefties, which would surely be substantial.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 4:30 PM PST up reply actions  

But you also have to look at

WHY he’s been shielded from RHP and WHY he’s been backing up. In theory, it could be a Cust-like “no one fully appreciated that he’s actually good.” But in fact, he’s been…pretty poor against RHP, and I don’t see a CFer there (though I probably haven’t seen him fully healthy). I think he’s actually pretty similar to Bobby Kielty, only with a little more speed/range and worse hair.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 4:55 PM PST up reply actions  

OK

Why he’s been shielded from RHP: Because managers don’t understand regression to the mean and think that he’s worse against RHP than he probably is.

Why he’s been backing up: Well, I have no idea. The team had someone better, or thought they did…

Again I have to point out that how good someone has been against some subset of major league pitchers is much less important than how good he has been against major league pitchers writ large. In Hairston’s case, that’s almost exactly league average, but with his best seasons having come in the most recent years.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 8:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Honest question

How is that kind of regression theory any different from sitting in front of the TV and thinking “Alright, he’s 0 for his last 12… he’s due!”?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 16, 2009 5:34 AM PST up reply actions  

Depends what you mean by "due"

If by that you mean “certain to get a hit,” it’s ridiculous. If you mean “almost exactly as likely to get a hit as he was before he went 0 for 12,” it’s mathematically correct.

The correct approach to platoon splits is discussed extensively in The Book. Regression needs to be applied heavy-handedly to large observed platoon splits, especially for right-handed hitters.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 16, 2009 10:06 AM PST up reply actions  

Think I read an excerpt

More likely it was someone riffing on what they read from The Book. I’m not sure how much I agree with the theory, but like I said I haven’t read the source material. Still, if past performance is the best indicator of future performance than at some point a RH batter will see enough RHP that regression will no longer matter and what you see is what you get no matter how well he hits against LHP.

And sticking with the theoretical, why wouldn’t the opposite be true and the prediction would be that said RH batter’s numbers vs. LHP would regress down?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 16, 2009 10:36 AM PST up reply actions  

They absolutely will regress down

Absolutely. The odds are very low that Hairston is really an .870 OPS hitter against lefties. He’s almost certainly worse.

Re: your first point, yes, this is true, but the problem there is that you’re talking about 2500 at-bats or so and by the time you assemble a sample of that size, the early at-bats in the sample are at best vaguely related to the current talent level of the player. There’s always going to be some substantial element of regression no matter how long a player’s career has been.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 16, 2009 11:28 AM PST up reply actions  

When you start talking about "some substantial"

it’s time for me to walk away from the math. I’ll leave that to the folks who like to play with the numbers.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 16, 2009 11:50 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't think it's worth talking about.

Why would Cleveland trade a relatively young, cheap middle of the order bat?

"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra

by brenarlo on Nov 15, 2009 11:25 AM PST up reply actions  

To get to the other side

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 11:31 AM PST up reply actions  

Heh.

"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra

by brenarlo on Nov 15, 2009 11:32 AM PST up reply actions  

Because they have multiple other needs

that until filled will render them not competitive while Choo is under contract.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 11:57 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't agree with this assessment

I think they have as good a chance as anyone of taking the AL Central in 2010.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 1:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Really? Their rotation looks pretty meh to me,

as does their bullpen. Their offense should be ok, but it was better when it had Victor Martinez in the lineup. Their defense should be solid.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 2:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Their whole division is "meh"

I don’t know, I just really like their lineup. Even without Martinez. Choo is good, Sizemore is awesome, Cabrera is excellent, Peralta is good, LaPorta should be excellent, Valbuena’s intriguing, Hafner is declining but still pretty good, and Shoppach and Santana should be way above average offensively at the catcher spot.

I don’t know what you call “a team with plus hitters at 7 positions and a meh rotation and bullpen,” but it looks a lot like the 2009 Angels to me.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 3:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Peralta is good?

I see a poor defensive SS, who might be ok defensively elsewhere but who is coming off a .254 /.316/.375 season.

I’d also say that a rotation anchored by Lackey, Weaver, Saunders, and E. Santana is far from meh.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 3:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Ervin Santana was awful this season

Lackey missed major time and wasn’t outstanding. Saunders turned into the pumpkin that FIP devotees have been predicting him to turn into ever since his first season.

For a playoff team, it was a surprisingly mediocre rotation.

I didn’t realize Peralta had had such a bad season; still, his career stats would predict a significant bounce-back.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 4:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Peralta might actually be a decent "buy low" candidate

to put at 3B (and backup SS).

I don’t think Saunders turned into a pumpkin so much as he pitched hurt for 1/2 a season. He’s still, IMO, a very solid #3 starter, just as Lackey and Weaver are very solid #s 1 & 2.

Santana had a terrible season, but that doesn’t mean he’s a terrible pitcher — I guess there it just depends on whether you’re looking at the Angels in early April (the team we thought they had assembled) or now (the team it turns out they had).

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 4:59 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm looking at the team that it turns out the Angels had

on grounds that if the Indians assemble a team which is similar to the team that it turns out won the AL West last year, they will probably themselves win the AL Central.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 8:15 PM PST up reply actions  

What's the Indians' projected rotation at the moment?

It pales to Lackey, Weaver, Saunders and either Kazmir or Santana.

Basically, Carmona = Santana (All-Star? Totally sucks? Who knows?) And then in the mix you have…Laffey, Huff, Sowers, Masterson, maybe Westbrook?

Eew.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 8:25 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not sure why you're continuing to confuse the issue here when I just clarified

The Angels’ actual 2009 rotation put up an ERA of like 4.5. I don’t care what their 2009 rotation projected to do or what their 2010 rotation projects to do.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 8:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Well...

1. I wouldn’t recommend the Indians try to win even the Central by giving up an earned run every other inning.

2. I’d be surprised if a rotation of Carmona, Laffey, Huff, Sowers, and Masterson put up an ERA of 4.50.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 8:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Carlos Carrasco

You heard it here first.

Or maybe not. Anyway, he’s good.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 10:29 PM PST up reply actions  

ESPN people say Baily comes in 3rd in ROY vote...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4651324

It’s not the official result… just what the ESPN “experts” think.

"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra

by brenarlo on Nov 15, 2009 12:04 PM PST reply actions  

Neyer voted for Brett Anderson.

"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra

by brenarlo on Nov 15, 2009 12:05 PM PST up reply actions  

I would have too.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 12:10 PM PST up reply actions  

I like him more now.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 15, 2009 2:47 PM PST up reply actions  

I like him more now.

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 15, 2009 2:47 PM PST up reply actions  

I like him more now.

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 7:13 PM PST up reply actions  

I like him, Morneau.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 7:13 PM PST up reply actions  

He hate me, Morneau

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 7:18 PM PST up reply actions  

I like Porneau.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 15, 2009 7:53 PM PST up reply actions  

I have a portmanteau

I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does

by bobnothing on Nov 15, 2009 7:59 PM PST up reply actions  

I have a Wood, a Cole, and a Portman, too.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 15, 2009 8:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Did you get the Wood from Porneau?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 8:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Porcello?

I understand the love for Andrus.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 15, 2009 12:51 PM PST up reply actions  

That surprises me as well

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Nov 15, 2009 12:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Not surprised that Neyer picked Anderson

I am little surprised that no one else picked him as well though.

by DeJay on Nov 15, 2009 1:21 PM PST up reply actions  

SI had Bailey as the winner, and it wasn't close.
Tom Verducci: Bailey
Jon Heyman: Porcello
Keith: Bailey
Posnanski: Bailey
Reiter: Bailey
Lemire: Bailey
Sabino: Beckham

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/11/12/experts.awards.picks/2.html

No, there's no light,
in the darkest of your furthest reaches.

by danmerqury on Nov 15, 2009 2:02 PM PST up reply actions  

I love this factoid:

He had 26 saves this season, the same number as all other rookies combined.

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan

by iglew on Nov 15, 2009 8:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Does that mean all other rookies combined for 26 saves...

or that there were 26 other rookies last year? The first is more impressive, but the second is more beautifully irrelevant to everything!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 8:02 PM PST up reply actions  

I just remembered that I had a dream last night

that the A’s had added Chone Figgins and Jermaine Dye. What’s most interesting to me is that the dream wasn’t that this was great news, or that it was terrible news, or that it was big news — it was just a fact. Why I would have that dream, with those specifics, is beyond me.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 12:14 PM PST reply actions  

next thing we'll be reading that

“rumors about sources close to the A’s signing Figgins and Dye”…hey, if an A’s fanatic isn’t close to the A’s, who is?

by OaklandSi on Nov 15, 2009 12:28 PM PST up reply actions  

I'd sign

Dye…as well as Long and Justice…just sayin’

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 1:01 PM PST up reply actions  

There's a certain dichotomy that the origal post touches on...

…and has been evident for some time here on AN. Seems like whenever a trade or signing is proposed, there’s always a handful that are quick to point out why that player either sucks and/or is over-valued. Even many of the obviously best players have something wrong with them. To hear some tell it, everybody sucks!

This makes me wonder if we’re spending too much time in evaluative masturbating to an unrealistic and absurd degree. Instead of looking for the player with zero flaws… which doesn’t exist, btw… I wonder if Beane (or any GM) puts as much thought into every little downside nuance that fans here do, or if they just look at what’s available and go with the best they can put together.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by UncleLeo on Nov 15, 2009 2:20 PM PST reply actions  

"This makes me wonder if we’re spending too much time in evaluative masturbating to an unrealistic and absurd degree."

Definitely.

Oh hey, I didn’t see the word “evaluative” the first time I read it. I wonder what that means.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 2:28 PM PST reply actions  

"This makes me wonder if we’re spending too much time in evaluative masturbating to an unrealistic and absurd degree."

Definitely.

Oh hey, I didn’t see the word “evaluative” the first time I read it. I wonder what that means.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 2:28 PM PST reply actions  

Cabrerra revisited

OK I know the community dosen’t like cabrerra, and I risk Paul crushing me with sabermetric statistics…but Cabrerra based on age and production is an incredible talent. Sure he will hit a decline phase earlier than say Texeria, but he is 26, will be 31 at the end of his contract, and we can trade him a year before his contract is up. We’ve been collecting prospects for several years now, to what end? Name a positional prospect the we have hoarded that has actually made an All Star team (major league All Star team) for the A’s in the past 5 years? Lets face it, for the next 5-10 years, the wild card will go to the loser of the AL East race. We have to get ahead of the teams of our division. We are not doing that with the Hairstons, Ellis and Bartons of the world.

by StewCrew on Nov 15, 2009 6:01 PM PST reply actions  

who is this player Cabrerra?

now, if you’re talking about Miguel Cabrera, well, it’s understandable that many people would be interested in someone who is that good offensively. If Detroit wants to trade him I’m sure they will find a fair amount of interest despite the cost.

If you’re referring to Asdrubal Cabrera, there’s something to be said for his cool first name…and yeah, he’s a good player too.

If you’re referring to Orlando Cabrera, probably most here would say ’been there done that"

by OaklandSi on Nov 15, 2009 6:22 PM PST up reply actions  

No one ever talks about Everth

Talk about a cool name.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 6:28 PM PST up reply actions  

No one ever talks about Fernando Tatis

talk about something…else.

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 15, 2009 7:15 PM PST up reply actions  

He's actually probably discussed more often than is warranted,

due to conversations that start, “Has anyone ever hit two grand slams in an inning?”

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 7:25 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't think it's a matter of not liking Cabrera

It’s about not liking what we’d have to give up both in terms of prospects and our budget to get him.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Nov 15, 2009 6:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Natch

Saying a player is good is really easy. Saying a player is undervalued or underpaid is much more difficult. And those are the guys you can win with when you’re a small-market franchise.

Cabrera is good, but he isn’t undervalued or underpaid. I mean, the notion of the A’s trading for him is almost ludicrous on its face, since you’d be expecting one of two things:

1. The owners to operate the team at a loss for the next 6 seasons, out of the goodness of their hearts, or
2. Beane to dump every other player who makes any money at all, at cut-rate prices (think Lilly for Kielty), so that they can afford to swing this insane contract.

So you just gave up the farm system to get Miguel Cabrera, and then (assuming Lew Wolff doesn’t decide to donate $100 mill or so of his cash) you just dumped every other good player on the roster to keep him. Great. You don’t have a team, you have Miguel Cabrera and a bunch of scrubs.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 8:24 PM PST up reply actions  

And Cabrera doesn't exactly keep himself in tip-top shape

So you could have an injured Cabrera and a bunch of Scrubs. Luckily, the cast of Scrubs could probably treat Cabrera better than any other sit-com could.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 8:28 PM PST up reply actions  

If we want overweight and overpaid dominicans who used to hit well

ortiz can probably be had for cheap

The A's. The SWINGING A's. That's right, the SWINGING A's.

by eastcoasta'sfan on Nov 15, 2009 8:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Cabrera still hits well

But then so does Brett Myers.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 15, 2009 8:30 PM PST up reply actions  

Sounds a lot like what I said

only a lot more elaborate and specific.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Nov 15, 2009 8:32 PM PST up reply actions  

That was the goal, yes

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 8:33 PM PST up reply actions  

It was quite successful.

I applaud the effort.

CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."

by DMOAS on Nov 15, 2009 8:38 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not sure that's true

Do you think the A’s lost money in 2009? (I’d need to figure out where the break-even point is for payroll/profit margin.) Cabrera isn’t as attractive a trade target now as he was 2 years ago. He’s signed to that mammoth contract, he’s older and he plays a less valuable defensive position (although he did score well at 1B according to UZR).

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Nov 16, 2009 5:45 AM PST up reply actions  

They sure haven't anytime recently.

In 2008, the A’s were the seventh-most profitable franchise in baseball, with operating income of $26.2MM. OI was 16, 15, and 15MM the prior three years.

Lew Wolff probably wouldn’t have to spend any of his money at all; he’d just have to be happy with a break-even business.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Nov 16, 2009 9:58 AM PST up reply actions  

Spending everything you take in may not be the best of ideas when you're trying to build a new stadium

And the “pre-payroll” income is clearly changing from year to year; for instance, the A’s had 26+47=73 million dollars before payroll in 2008, but 79+16=95 million dollars in 2007.

I’m not sure how useful this information is. The economic collapse may have dramatically contracted the monetary base of the A’s.

This is not to say with certainty that the roster isn’t profitable, just that there are a ton of unknown variables here.

In any event, though, as the GM, you have to work within the limits set by ownership, whatever they may be.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 16, 2009 11:00 AM PST up reply actions  

It will be interesting to see this year's numbers, for sure.

With the dramatically lower payroll, though, I’ll be nothing short of shocked if the A’s don’t post their most profitable year to date.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Nov 16, 2009 11:51 AM PST up reply actions  

Huh? The A's raised their payroll from 2008 while suffering decreased attendance...

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 16, 2009 3:06 PM PST up reply actions  

and *still* Tony Dungy looks miserable

I suspect that you think tilting at windmills means something other than what it does

by bobnothing on Nov 15, 2009 8:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, wow.

For the third time in the last couple of years, I’m considering tossing the Raiders and adopting the Colts. I know, I know, it’s cardinal sin numero uno. But this is an extreme circumstance.

No, there's no light,
in the darkest of your furthest reaches.

by danmerqury on Nov 15, 2009 9:16 PM PST up reply actions  

I root for the Jets in the AFC

Sure you get declared Sanchez every season (and now, every Sunday), but those uniforms look really snazzy.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Nov 15, 2009 10:36 PM PST up reply actions  

I just have to say

HAHAHAHAHA BELICHECK HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH

(yes the refs blew the call, I don’t care. He deserves it)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAH

They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick

by mikev on Nov 15, 2009 10:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Belichick totally made the right call.

Everybody knows that even if Peyton Manning were at his own 1 yard line with 1 second left to go, he still would have a 100% chance to win the game, because he is the second most perfect person every born, behind that old hippie guy that got killed a long time ago.

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Nov 16, 2009 4:16 PM PST up reply actions  

I think you mean tied for second

Do not tell me that Peyton Manning is more perfect than Jeter! Heresy!

by el generico on Nov 16, 2009 4:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Who would you rather invite to Thanksgiving?

"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard

by Gaijin_Suketto on Nov 16, 2009 11:29 PM PST up reply actions  

It depends

if Jeter is dating Jennie Finch by Thanksgiving (and yes, I know that Jennie is married to Casey Daigle, don’t rain on my parade here)

by el generico on Nov 18, 2009 1:39 PM PST up reply actions  

oops

that was meant to end “then I would invite Jeter”

by el generico on Nov 18, 2009 1:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah Derek Jeter is far better at getting herpes

"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"

by designatedforassignment on Nov 17, 2009 5:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Lookin forward to some college BBall

if only because unlike football, UCLA has a chance of being pretty good.

"I am happy because I do not have unrealistic expectations"- Karma Ura...or an A's fan.

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 16, 2009 4:59 AM PST reply actions  

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