We need to say no to AK: The official 2010 3B option thread
In Blez's great interview with Beane over the last 2 two days, he seemed a little jumpy about re-signing AK, with the idea that he can man 3B until Wallace is ready and can provide depth at 2B and even the OF if needed. Beane gave off the vibe that "its an option we can look at". I had a spare hour to write about this, so in this post, Im going to tell you why this is a terrible idea, and who we should be looking at.
AK was in 2 words, surprisingly awesome for long stretches of 2009, and that was a good thing. It didnt help us as much as we thought initially though, as his defense at 3B went from passable to atrocious pretty quickly. He's a 2B by nature as much as we can try to force the round peg into the square hole, its not a long term solution by any means as the peg will fall out all the time. But it wasnt his defense that we liked, it was his bat, a bat that gave us pretty decent hitting from a position we hadnt seen it from since Chavez. However, that bat was helped greatly by a .330 BABIP, as AK is definitely a player who BABIP is a trustworthy stat, his fluctuates year by year because he's a slap hitter, this year he was somewhat lucky, however, if he has another 2007 where he was unlucky, any team that gets him is going to be getting some of the worst offensive numbers in the game.
So, the question is here: do we really want an out-of-position guy who can put up numbers ranging from pretty decent to completely horrific? Of course not, we're the A's, our offense is already terrible, why would we have a defensive liability who is a potential disaster with the bat? Funny thing, over the last 4 years, he was worth $15.7 in WAR dollars, guess who was worth $15.1 in that same time frame? Jack Hannahan.
Exactly.
So, that being said: who could the A's target? Do we wait until ST and maybe Wallace will learn some tricks in the offseason (any chance we can get him to workout with Chavvy?) and do we get that extremely bad stopgap guy like AK (who's going to be more expensive than the $1.5MM he's worth) or any of the cringe-worthy pack of Rich Aurilla/Geoff Blum/Aaron Boone/Craig Counsell/Mike Lamb/Mark Loretta/Pablo Ozuna/Robb Quinlan/Juan Uribe? If Wallace's bat shows that its more than ready for the show and its his D that needs polishing at AAA until June, I guess any of thoe dudes on a minor league deal would be fine, maybe they would get lucky like AK? If Beane decides the division isnt up for grabs like it was this year, its a risk a non-contending team can take. Or we could sign a FA to a short-term deal and just get Wallace as many innings at AAA 3B as he needs.Id prefer we bring someone in and let Wallace have a year to mature fully as a player. Here's the "marquee" 3B FAs:
Guaranteed awesome defense, the bats the thing with him. He had that insane 48 HR year in LAD (how the HELL did he do that?). He's a notoriously steady babip, he's a flyball hitter and sadly most of those have been staying in the park. His raw numbers were awful this year, so a multi-year deal isnt in the cards. He would be a great solution in a 1-year stopgap option, and we wouldnt have to think about rushing Wallace. He's risky, but it might one worth taking. He's a Boras guy, and who knows where we stand with his clients, plus the Twins have been flirting pretty heavily with him too. I honestly dont think we get him.
Here's an interesting one, he claims he's going to be as healthy as he's ever been in 2010, which is a nice thing to say, sadly his career says otherwise. He's a poor mans Beltre, his bat will always be worse and his glove is top 5 in the game, but Beltre is ahead of him there too. He's also a rich man's Jack Hannahan, who we had. Honestly, on a 1 year deal, he's good. A Boras client, what are the odds he could be had for under $3MM? At that price, Id take a flyer on him.
A bat we need, and his is good. His 2008 was extremely awesome. His glove is questionable but his 08 D was pretty good and better than league average. We seriously need to need to put in a bid on him, if only for the chance that we get him 2/3 as good as his 2008 was.
Ahh Miggy...such a weird player. He definitely used roids, you cant convince me he didnt. He's a somewhat good hitter and hasnt ever played 3B and will have to learn it to survive, as SS defense as bad as his is means the end for a lot of players not named Jeter. If he's available for $2MM and the other options are scrapheap guys, I guess we take him back, although Im not stoked on him. He will be healthy I guess....
Internally:
We have Jeff Baisley, Eric Chavez, Gregorio Petit, Brett Wallace and technically Adrian Cardenas, if you count the 6 games he played there at AAA in 09. I mean yeah, Petit could cover Wallace until Wallace's D is ready. Maybe Baisley will hit like less like Hannahan's autistic cousin (super obscure joke, sorry) and more like a passable mlb regular. Thats the thing, hile we have plenty of 1B options that range from A+ prospect (Carter), injured but B+ prospect (Dolittle) failing A+ prospect (Barton), suitable short-term fill-in (Everidge) we simply dont have that depth at 3B right now. If Cardenas hits .450 in April and plays like Brooks Robinson at 3B when he gets the chance, yeah he could be an option too. Lastly, do we count on Chavez for 30 or so games or not bother with him?
Trades:
Kevin Kouzmanoff: He's blocking Headley and his bat might one day be league average. His defense is pretty good. He's an option but SD knows what they have with him and are supposedly asking a lot.
Mike Lowell: With Boston talking about new 1B options, Youk moves to 3B and Lowell becomes the odd man out. His D is up and down, he does some things extremely well, such as fielding slow rollers, but when it comes to line drives he's among the worst going. His bat moves from league average to excellent. Depending on what the RS want, it would be a smart option to listen. He makes $12MM so obviously the RS would need to take a chunk of that.
Mark Teahen: He's godawful at defense and not very good at hitting. Please no.
Alex Gordon: H-Rod, Barton & Buck for Gordon, who says no? Before biting my head off I see: flawed prospect, failing and blocked prospect and failed prospect for a guy who had Weiters-esque hype when he arrived. seems like a good package for KC, and an absurd bounty for us if he ever gets healthy/finds his stroke again.
Garrett Atkins: would be on the 'reclamation project who doesnt matter if our intention is to bring up Wallace at some point anyway' but other than that, no. hes awful at baseball now.
Jake Fox: I dont trust this guy, shoddy D, good in SSS with the bat, star of the "free Jake Fox" campaign over at fangraphs. His D really isnt good at all, like, why bother trading a player when Glaus is available for just money, and not a ton of it either?
So, there it is, Purple Haze the album---I mean our 3B situation and the options we have internally and externally. Feel free to discuss any other options I may have missed.
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216 comments
Comments
Aki Iwamura would also be a good option
likely to be a 2 WAR plus player next year and has experience at 2b as well as 3b.
Miggy looks due to a collapse with a 2.9% walk rate in the NL.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 7, 2009 12:46 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I like Iwamura, and the Rays need relievers. It would probably take someone like Bailey or Wuertz
to get him though.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 7, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No it won't
they need to cut payroll and $4.25m for a superfluous and recently injured player is a lot. Maybe someone like Kilby or Gray.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 7, 2009 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not if that player is "likely to be a 2 WAR plus player next year"
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 7, 2009 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
right so there is only 4.5m of surplus value
Bailey and Wuertz are worth way more than that.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 7, 2009 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is that based on his being an exactly 2 WAR player?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 7, 2009 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes
He doesn’t have a ton of upside maybe 3 WAR if he has a good year.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 7, 2009 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Iwamura is a FA after 2010 are there draft picks?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 7, 2009 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably not
and yes he will be a FA after 2010
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 7, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Explicitly, no
It is contractually verboten for Iwamura’s team to offer him arbitration. He cannot possibly produce draft pick compensation.
If his contract allowed him to be offered arb, he’d have to accept it because he has less than 6 years’ service time in MLB.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 7, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Was that a clause in his signing from Japan or something?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 7, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah that he either had to be resigned or released at the end of the contract
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 7, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where are you getting that? All I see in Cot's is
contract includes clause requiring TB to sign Iwamura to extension by end of the deal or release him (effectively granting him free agency early)
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 7, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh, if they release him, they can't offer him arbitration... sort of a basic point...
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 7, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn! Beat me!
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 7, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
by releasing him it means they cant offer him arb
because he is no longer their property.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 7, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are probably right, but following statement:
effectively granting him free agency early
made me have doubts. In any case the Rays need a reliever and if not Bailey nor Wuertz, then they’ll most likely want someone who has closer potential. Rodriguez?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 7, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Want and get are very different
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 7, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can see the Cardinals offering someone like Garcia
or Motte for Iwamura. After all they did trade Perez and Todd for DeRosa. I’d think the A’s would have to beat that, and I don’t think Kilby or Gray do that.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 7, 2009 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then they can have him
St Louis has no farm system, Im not sure I would empty it further when they could sign a FA
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 7, 2009 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well they believe in going for it every year.
They’ll trade anyone for a position of need except a very top prospect like Rasmus. Another example is the Dodgers trading Santana and Meloan for Blake. It’s not about the projected contract value when a current year playoff berth is at stake.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 7, 2009 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im not trading anyone close to being good for Aki
as for the rest of your point… Ah to be in the NL
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 7, 2009 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
knew i missed someone
Iwamura is a good option as well.
by PL78 on Oct 7, 2009 12:52 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Just so you know
It was Blez that interviewed Beane, not Nico
"The A's get some action but they do not score..." -Glen Kuiper
"Anyone who calls themselves the Angels Angels should have to start over and ride the short bus." -timmeh from McCovey Chronicles
by Cheezombie on Oct 7, 2009 2:23 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think this is a decent overview
Although, I’d like to see more with regards to proposed contract lengths. Signing Troy Glaus to a 1 year contract is far different than signing him to a 5 year contract. The latter has huge attendant risk to it, particularly for players who are peaking or past peak in their careers.
Otherwise, I agree completely, Adam Kennedy should not be a seriously considered for next year. There’s really a binary option in my mind.
1) If you’re going for it in 2010, sign the best 3b you can at a high price for a couple of years. I personally think that’s Beltre, Glaus, Iwamura.
OR
2) If you’re not going for it in 2010 (my preferred option), trade for a low price, high risk, mid/high upside sort of guy.
I rather like Jake Fox, I’d be happy to trade a AA mid tier pitching prospect for him to see if he can regain his plate discipline and/or power whether at 3B or anywhere else. Nothing too expensive but he could be the next Jack Cust/Russ Branyan. Of course he could also be the next Chris Shelton, so i’d avoid giving away much.
As for Alex Gordon, I think you’re giving away too much, but I’d like to see what the A’s can do with him. He’s a little bit of a reclamation project given his offensive struggles and decline in defensive capability over the years but if he can play a reasonable 3B and hit his ceiling as a batter, he’s got a strong future.
by eastbayexpat on Oct 7, 2009 5:22 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd love that Gordon trade
There’s a good chance we’d be giving up nothing at all in the deal, yet KC can say the same thing. It works for both teams, with the difference being Gordon has a ceiling that towers over any other player’s, which is why KC gets three guys back. I think Gordon, at worst, would put up Barton-like numbers at a more important defensive position, already making him more valuable than Kennedy, any of the scrap heap gang, Crede … or Daric Barton.
http://www.myspace.com/ryanmac10
by RyanFromBonas on Oct 7, 2009 7:41 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That trade works for both teams, except that it doesn't work for one of them
KC has no use for Daric Barton at all.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 7, 2009 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was going to say that... but didn't Bayan Pena get the lion's share of DH plate appearances for them? And Butler is still atrocious in the field...
by rebus on Oct 7, 2009 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jacobs... Kaaihue... they've got 1B/DH types falling out of their ass
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 7, 2009 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Butler played 1B and was awful at it. He needs to be a DH.
Jacobs is insultingly bad at baseball and took most of the DH PA’s in 09, not Pena.
Barton is better than Pena and Kaaihue.
by PL78 on Oct 7, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't matter
DMGM thinks Butler and Jacobs are the answers. Try convincing him that he actually screwed up horribly last offseason.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 7, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
because Dayton Moore makes Omar Minaya look smart.
And because Trey Hillman makes me thankful that we have Bob Geren.
No really.
by eastbayexpat on Oct 7, 2009 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually like Trey Hillman from a personality standpoint
but he should not be managing a baseball team. He’s way over his head.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 7, 2009 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which is bizarre,
Because as Joe Posnanski put it, their cleanup hitter performance this year was worse than a replacement-level catcher.
Lay down, black gives way to blue.
Lay down, I'll remember you.
by danmerqury on Oct 7, 2009 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its just so insulting to their fans
Betancort AND Jacobs on the same team. Jesus christ….
by PL78 on Oct 7, 2009 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Jose Guillen
Can’t forget 2008’s least valuable player.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 7, 2009 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Guillen?
Fangraphs has Betancourt at -23.0 runs with the bat at -20.7 runs with the glove. Even with the positional adjustment, that’s -2.1 WAR.
Lay down, black gives way to blue.
Lay down, I'll remember you.
by danmerqury on Oct 7, 2009 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So if they put Cust at SS, he'd have to be -60 runs with the glove to achieve that.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 7, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can we sell Moore on that just for funsies?
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 7, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seems like a lot for Alex Gordon, although he might bounce back. Not sure why he started hitting so many ground balls, but I'm going to guess his hip injury was a factor.
I’m also not sure if his arb clock starting fits well with the team’s window for success, which will hopefully begin in 2011, but might not be realized until 2012.
The free agent stop gaps seem more than fair, so I’d prefer the A’s pick up a 3B and SP by leveraging dollars instead of talent. If the A’s lose out and don’t sign anyone from that pool (Beltre/Glaus/maybe Crede), then it seems more prudent to go with freely available talent (thinak Hannahan redux) instead of focusing on 2010.
by rebus on Oct 7, 2009 9:57 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I still think we sign a 3B that can play SS
in a pinch because someone has to backup Cliff.
Maybe Ellis could be the emergency backup with Patterson backing up 2nd. If we can work out something like that, then there are more options.
I also wouldn’t be surprised if we did some trades and things turned out much differently.
by DrDoom on Oct 7, 2009 10:21 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Adding a serious 3B this offseason?
The prospect of adding a serious thirdbaseman seem folly to me. The A’s have Brett Wallace waiting in the wings with a total of 446 PAs in AAA (plus some playoff seasoning in Sactown). As an advanced college hitter, how many do you think he needs? While it would be a good idea not to force him into the major leagues if he’s not ready as Spring Training breaks, it would be foolhardy for the A’s to place any sort of investment in the position this offseason.
What the A’s need to have is a very cheap guy who can start at 3B if necessary, but one who is also willing and able to come off the bench (while spot starting at multiple positions). This is the perfect place for a guy like Jack Hannahan or Adam Kennedy—I say like because I too am tired of the poor defense of Kennedy. None of the options you list are productive options.
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by nobodyinparticular on Oct 7, 2009 10:38 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Then why not have it be a guy who can play shortstop too?
I think the A’s will want to take it slow with Wallace and give him more time to prove his defense in AAA. The reality is that he might not be a passable 3B for even the first few seasons of his career, so they need to plan for that.
by rebus on Oct 7, 2009 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
This is what I would think is the best option as well. I almost want to say that Petit and Pennington should be the two guys as Pennington can fake it at third. However, A) a combination of Pennington at 3B and Petit at SS would probably be pretty sucky offensively as well as defensively as I don’t believe Pennington would do that well at the hot corner and while Pennington looked good for a SS this season, the combination of the two at the plate doesn’t sit well with me. B) I would expect moving Pennington around the diamond would stunt his development as a major leaguer.
I believe in Pennington (at least as a short term player—for 2-3 years until Green gets here) and I think he can be a very effective major league SS. I agree that our stopgap would ideally be able to backup Pennington (as well as Ellis) should the need arise. The perfect man would seem to be Marco Scutaro—well, Scutaro circa 2006-ish. Only because of his inexpensive contract at that point. I can’t really think of any available, cheap players that this describes. A little help here?
Visit my sports blog: Triple Slash Sports
by nobodyinparticular on Oct 7, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good ideas & roundup of options.
The guy I like the most most from a power perspective and contractual perspective – meaning he’ll probably only be able to command a year or two – is Glaus, but his defense and health are suspect and it seems like Beane and ownership have made the decision not to pursue players with his combination of possible ailments and age.
I’ve thought a bit about Kouzmanoff. I think he’ll be arby-eligible for the first time this off-season, and the Pads might want to shed his salary. He had a really good second half offensively for the Pads after a horrific 1st half but he can hit the ball out of the park and play better defense than anybody on this list save for Crede and Beltre. Not sure who’d they want in return? Maybe Jeff Gray? Eric Patterson? Buck?
Besides that, I’m not a huge AK fan, but I wouldn’t be opposed to bringing him back on a 1-year deal at or less than $1.5 million. I realize his BABIP was high and he’s not gonna ever hit double-digits homers ever again, but I think he’ll be a decent defender at 3rd after a full off-season and Spring Training playing over there and even if he reverts to his career offenisve norms (.721 OPS) he’ll still probably outperform Petit or Baisley or other internal/waiver wire pickups. Plus, if the A’s really think that Wallace can be halfway decent defensively at 3rd, you’re only really looking at a 2-month placeholder at 3rd, and Kennedy (if signed on the cheap) would be ok in that role and would be a nice bench player as the season progresses since he can play 2nd and the outfield if need be. The other guys on this list don’t quite offer that same versatility, for however much that’s worth…
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
by Taj Adib on Oct 7, 2009 10:40 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Can Kouzmanoff's defense be called anything but slightly above average, if that?
I thought his defense was a work in progress coming up.
As much as I think Miggy is a collapse risk, I think it’s also good to point out that he’s one of the few affordable free agent options that could cover both areas. Wallace needs 2 months at AAA? Miggy’s at third. Pennington hitting like Crosby by June? Miggy’s back at short and Cliff becomes the utility infielder.
by rebus on Oct 7, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kouzmanoff, Tejada,
the Jet Ski, and the trip to Bratislava can all be yours,
if the Price is Right.
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Oct 7, 2009 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me, as many fucking times as it takes
Alex Gordon: H-Rod, Barton & Buck for Gordon, who says no?
I’m dead serious on this: You could tell Barton to spend the entire offseason learning to play 3B and you’d have Alex Gordon.
Gordon is a 1B masquerading as a 3B. I thought that’s what Brett Wallace was already? Do we need another one?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 7, 2009 11:17 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
that sounds so crazy to me
Firstly, this isnt a mediocre catcher switching to the easiest/least important defensive position in the game to decent success. Sure there’s plenty of big league C’s who moved to 3B, but Barton was never a C in the bigs. Can you name a decent 3B who moved from 1B? Sandoval maybe, but his D at 3B is really bad. If youre talking about moving Barton there because his bat (which so far has only played in Sept) then thats as risky move as any.
Secondly Barton was barely in anyones top 10 prospect lists, Gordon was a Minor League POY and #1 on everyones list in 05/06. Gordon’s ceiling is twice that of Barton’s and Gordon is just being messed with too much in KC (we need to look at Gordon as a case study for Wallace in terms of bringing him up too early. We at least have already given BW AAA experience, KC sent AG from AA to the bigs.). Gordon’s D was excellent when he started, then I dont know what happened, he either regressed to his mean or concentrated on hitting more. Everything fell apart for him this year and KC has holes in RF and 1B.
Ive said it 100 times, Barton is just so expendable. Carter, Dolittle, Wallace, Donaldson…these are all guys who will either perform as well as him or better at the big league level if put at 1B. Buck doesnt have a future here, and we dont need H-Rod and his walks when theres 100s of Craig Breslows out there, and KC are suckers for hard throwing relievers.
by PL78 on Oct 7, 2009 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
another thing
Barton cannot hit in Oakland. 679 OPS at the net Vs 807 away. Let him go and be a productive player elsewhere instead of a frustrating one here and lets get a player for him that fills holes where we are desperate.
by PL78 on Oct 7, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You and your reflection should have talked to your doctor.
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Oct 7, 2009 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and you've been wrong 100 times.
Slice it however you want, Barton was better than Gordon this year, more valuable in less playing time, oh yeah and he’s two years younger.
So you’re giving up the better player in the deal (Barton) and throwing in Buck and Rodriguez, to get a subpar defender who hasn’t come close to hitting as well as he should.
That makes sense.
Oh, and also…
Secondly Barton was barely in anyones top 10 prospect lists, Gordon was a Minor League POY and #1 on everyones list in 05/06.
since you’re apparently not big on actually doing any research or anything, and just spouting off whatever it is you think is right: Alex Gordon wasn’t on anybody’s Top Prospect lists in 05/06. He was drafted in 2005. He was #13 on BA’s Top 100 in 2006.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 7, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
he was BA's minor league POY
and was #1 in 06 going into 07, my bad.
And I think you have to be related to Barton in some way, you are the only human on earth who would say he’s a better player than Gordon. Gordon’s D at 3B in his rookie year was pretty great. If he can get back to that and get his bat back on track then he’s an elite player.
Barton’s ceiling is Doug Mentkiewitz. Why do you have such a hardon for him? He’s 23 and cant hit AAA pitching and makes his metrics look good by getting walks from crappy pitching.
by PL78 on Oct 7, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's funny that you can make so many ridiculous arguments without having any way of backing them up.
But hey, since you bring it up… Eyechart’s best season is .306/.387/.464 plus a Gold Glove at first base. I’ll take it.
So Gordon played good defense 3 years ago? SHIT, GET THE GUY ASAP!!!!!
Please, look at some numbers before you continue making yourself look bad.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 7, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
im not making myself look bad at all
youre cherry picking numbers and not mentioning AG’s injuries/way KC has treated him
by PL78 on Oct 7, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You did say Barton's ceiling was Doug Mientkiewicz. That's hardly fair.
by rebus on Oct 7, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
how so?
3 years ago, it was mark grace. plenty has happened since then, hes still doesnt have a high BA at AAA. there’s nothing to say he wont have a long term future, I am just vehemently against him taking the 1B spot for us when Carter+Wallace are going to need to more.
by PL78 on Oct 7, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, since Daric Barton's career wOBA is already close to Mientkiewicz's, I'd say his ceiling is a bit higher.
by rebus on Oct 7, 2009 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OMFG STUPID STATS DON'T YOU EVEN WATCH THE GAMES?!??!?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 7, 2009 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
FANGRAPHSFANGRAPHSFANGRAPHS
Lay down, black gives way to blue.
Lay down, I'll remember you.
by danmerqury on Oct 7, 2009 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you know they have an iphone app!
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 7, 2009 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Iphones suck.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 7, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm glad that somebody said it.
I don’t necessarily agree,
but then again, I neither have one nor want one.
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Oct 7, 2009 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have one but want a N900 with mameo
yay for linux!
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 7, 2009 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm getting the HTC Hero next week.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 7, 2009 8:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah I almost got a HTC instead of an iphone
but they were a little behind last year.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 7, 2009 11:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Negative. Ice water flows through my veins, powering my actuator.
I can also stare at images of cute things on the internet for hours and remain unmoved.
by rebus on Oct 7, 2009 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But what's his
vHIPsQT?
or his eNOZR?
(it’s funny because I think wOBA is nonsense and am quick to dismiss. get it guys? guys?)
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Oct 7, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wallace 3B, Carter DH, Barton 1B
Problem solved.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 7, 2009 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wallace 3B, Carter LF, Barton 1B
Problem solved nicer.
Lay down, black gives way to blue.
Lay down, I'll remember you.
by danmerqury on Oct 7, 2009 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Carter in the OF
is not something anyone wants to see.
by PL78 on Oct 7, 2009 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um I would like to see it
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 7, 2009 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me too, but Wallace at 3B seems like a longer shot
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 7, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
Because he currently plays there?
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Oct 7, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because it's harder to play there than LF
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 7, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
Wallace has actually been playing 3B, played in college, etc.
Carter, not so much. He’s always been “the bat you FIND a position for”
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 7, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really hes playing there in Mexico
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 7, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
has that started yet?
I dunno when the Mexican league season is.
Like 90% of his games have been at 1B this season
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 7, 2009 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hasn't started yet
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 7, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and youd rather have him in LF instead of 1B
because barton will be a decent hitter in 2014.
by PL78 on Oct 7, 2009 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is not obvious that Carter will outhit Barton
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
by mikeA on Oct 7, 2009 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would you do me a favor
and just not reply to me anymore?
Your bullshit is very annoying, you have no idea what you’re talking about, and you fail to back up anything you say. Ever. You just go on and on with your anecdotal nonsense and it’s a very tired bunch of arguments anyway.
Thanks.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 7, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
so youre allowed to be a smarmy dickhead to me
but im not allowed to do the same?
stay out of my posts and i wont have to respond to your asinine arguments that youve cherry picked whilst ignoring the overall stance I have against your lover September Barton?
by PL78 on Oct 7, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, I'll make it simple.
Back up what you claim about players, or just fucking shut up.
Easy enough?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 7, 2009 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe if you learnt CIVILITY
maybe i’d bother myself with more research. instead i just want to call you a fucking douchebag. like that.
by PL78 on Oct 7, 2009 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which is just one more ridiculous thing you've said.
So it makes sense.
Everybody knows I’m a fucking asshole, not a douchebag.
Try to keep up, or just go away and let the grown ups talk.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 7, 2009 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow
just…..wow.
thought this place was a little different than the A’s msgboard, guess not.
im here to talk baseball and not be spoken down to like an illiterate retard. please respect others or you will ruin it for everyone.
Everybody knows I’m a fucking asshole
if youre older than 17 that quote is just sad. grow up dude.
by PL78 on Oct 7, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Civility exists around here
for people that back up their arguments and are civil to others.
Unfortunately you do neither of those things.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 7, 2009 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could everyone just relax?
Thsi stupid pissing match bullshit makes it less fun to read through this stuff.
Besides, Mikev was being serious… he IS a fucking asshole, not a douchebag.
by jeffro on Oct 7, 2009 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Start talking baseball then.
Generally around here that means stuff like “backing up what you claim” and whatnot.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 7, 2009 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
him playing well or averagely is probably a long shot
but not him playing there and having it be worth it to keep him there.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
by mikeA on Oct 7, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
why hes a good athlete
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 7, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was talking about Wallace
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
by mikeA on Oct 7, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh then i agree
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 7, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brave man
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 7, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's not the only one who thinks Barton was far and away a better player than Gordon this year
I really don’t want to get into this argument since it’s about as pointless as getting into an argument with Oaktoon… hmm… thoughts… Anyway, mikev is absolutely right about all his points on Barton, who has plenty of room to grow. Carter & Wallace are still big question marks and there are other possible positions for them to fill if Barton’s finally growing into his potential.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Oct 7, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sometimes we answer our own questions...
Adrian Beltre:
Guaranteed awesome defense, the bats the thing with him. He had that insane 48 HR year in LAD (how the HELL did he do that?).
AND:
Miguel Tejada:
Ahh Miggy…such a weird player. He definitely used roids, you cant convince me he didnt.
Remember that time Brady Anderson hit 50 dingers? Yah. Beltre (although, certainly not as extreme as Anderson).
by timed exposure on Oct 7, 2009 11:22 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Kennedy wasn't unlucky in 2007, he was playing hurt.
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Oct 7, 2009 11:38 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
his babip says otherwise
seemingly every ball he hit in the air was caught. that has nothing to do with being hurt.
by PL78 on Oct 7, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sometimes it does have to do with being hurt.
Just ask Mark Ellis and his insane 2008 Infield Fly Ball percentage of 25% and overall career-low BABIP of .249 as a result.
When guys are dealing with fairly serious lower-body injuries that prevent them from staying down on the ball through their swing(s), then it’s no surprise that they end up hitting a lot of fly balls that get caught and very few lines drives.
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
by Taj Adib on Oct 7, 2009 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the save.
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Oct 7, 2009 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dan Uggla might be another option.
And the Marlins might take Hairston for him. It could work if Carter is really a LF…and if Uggla can play 3B. I can’t help but think Cardenas is the long-term answer at 3B, with Wallace at DH.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 7, 2009 1:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Never been an Uggla fan, but if the trade was really for Hairston, It would be a good move.
What you fail to understand in your joyless myopia is that baseball is the key to life-- the Rosetta Stone, if you will. If you just understood baseball better all your other questions your, your... the, uh... the aliens, the conspiracies they would all, in their way be answered by the baseball gods.
by winchester5 on Oct 7, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lolwut
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 7, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we're gonna play Uggla at third,
then I want Cust at short,
and two left fielders.
"Flea Markets aren't just for blind dates anymore!"- The Reverend Billy Lard
by Gaijin_Suketto on Oct 7, 2009 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You might need two.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Oct 7, 2009 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uggla is a 1B.
He’s an abomination in the field, catch a marlins game sometime. He’s got as much as chance as being a successful 3B as Barton does.
by PL78 on Oct 7, 2009 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well he has more than that, because unlike our Daric, he'd probably be willing to try
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 7, 2009 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1 for WaddellCanseco, -1 for Daric Barton.
Man, I just don’t understand that thinking from Barton. I mean, I guess he tried to man 3rd in Sacramento a year or two ago during an emergency situation and didn’t really like it, but come on…this team has about 10 possible 1st base options that all offer more power at 1st and Barton is likely to be passed up on the depth chart real quick.
I mean, from all indications, Barton seems like a good athlete, began his career as a catcher, has a good arm and good instincts, I think he could become a decent 3rd baseman and actually improve his value to this team long-term instead of quickly fading away once Carter, Doolittle or Wallace are ready.
Look at KEnnedy…spent like a decade at 2nd base as a major leaguer, didn’t complain once when asked to play 3rd for the first time in the majors and did fairly well for a 33-year old first timer. Barton should give it a try this year…
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
by Taj Adib on Oct 7, 2009 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, has he actually come out and said "I don't want to play third base"?
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 7, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My reaction too
I thought all of that was AN wishcasting about how great it would be if Barton would play 3B.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Oct 7, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't find the link now, but Melissa Lockard had an interview with Forst
(I think), where he said something like “If the player isn’t willing, then it’s not something we’re going to force him to do”.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 7, 2009 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember Beane or Geren saying that Barton...
“felt uncomfortable” at 3rd after playing there 18 games in 2007 at Sacramento. Granted, he made 9 errors in 49 total chances and had a grizzly .816 Fielding Percentage (according to baseball cube) but I’d say that he should give it another, more extended shot, especially if he ends up being sent back down to Sacramento in 2010 if/when Doolittle/Carter/Wallace supplant him.
In any case, the quotes did not come from Barton himself, so I might be passing too much judgement on him without knowing all the details…however, the quotes seemed to indicate that at the time, the reason Barton wasn’t playing more at 3rd was because he himself felt uncomfortable there, not because the organization didn’t want to try him there or felt he could hack it.
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
by Taj Adib on Oct 7, 2009 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ya it may have been Beane or Geren. I wish I could find the link.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 7, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would imagine he was frustrated because he had a hard time trying to convert.
I would also imagine that if he were told “Come to spring training with an infielders glove, not just a first baseman’s mitt”
But I also have a completely unsubstantiated belief that Barton has become more coachable or at least has realized that he has to work hard to succeed in the big leagues. He’s become a really good defender at first, and like you said he was a former catcher, so really trying 3rd should be a fairly easy thing for him.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 7, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he "had a hard time trying to convert", doesn't that mean that it wasn't
“a fairly easy thing for him”?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 7, 2009 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Note, I said completely unsubstantiated belief.
Barton has made significant improvements in his defense at 1B. All his scouting reports when he was coming through the minors said he had problems staying at C on defense and wasn’t anything spectacular at 1B either.
He didn’t just magically get better defensively, which leads me to believe that he either worked really hard at it, started listening to his infield coaches, or both.
Basically, I see no reason why he shouldn’t be able to become an adequate third baseman, and like I said, my entirely baseless suggestion is now he’s “coachable” compared to when he was 21 and had issues playing third base, because he’s been in the big leagues and he’s gotten his ass handed to him and he’s realized that hey, some of these old dudes telling me what to do in the field actually know what they’re talking about.
Then again, Wallace is excited to learn from Chavez, so maybe he’ll turn into the GG third baseman and Daric can stay at 1b after all.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 7, 2009 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grizzly fielding percentage?
He plays for Sacramento, not Fresno…
Anyway, seriously, point is, 2007 was a long time ago. At that time we thought he was likely to be a butcher even at first base.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 7, 2009 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harumph for the PCL-inside humor.
But good point on the 2007 thing. Barton’s made great improvements going from liability at 1st to above average, so it shouldn’t be too much of a stretch to think he could go from “butcher” to “passable” at 3rd with a little practice.
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
by Taj Adib on Oct 7, 2009 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've heard this suggested before...
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 7, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you should try telling that to some of the posters here
they seem to forget Bartons a douche and has a shitty attitude, he’s bobby crosby pt 2
by PL78 on Oct 7, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Albert Pujols is a douche and has a shitty attitude, he's bobby crosby pt 2.
You can’t be serious. Back up your arguments or stop.
Lay down, black gives way to blue.
Lay down, I'll remember you.
by danmerqury on Oct 7, 2009 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well..
Except he can hit. And play above average defense at some position on the field.
by eastbayexpat on Oct 7, 2009 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those are meaningless. Hitting? Defense? Psssh.
Daric Barton is Bobby Crosby pt. 2 because he’s a douche and has a shitty attitude. Duh.
Lay down, black gives way to blue.
Lay down, I'll remember you.
by danmerqury on Oct 7, 2009 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus they both suck at pitching, so they're the same!
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Oct 7, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can I flag this entire comment thread?
What the fuck has gotten into you guys??
Even if it’s true that PL78 fails to back up his arguments and/or doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about, that does not mean that you have to shut him up.
Sometimes people are wrong.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Oct 7, 2009 9:25 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Well aren't you just a big poopy head this morning.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 8, 2009 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
`

"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Oct 8, 2009 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
is that allister?
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 8, 2009 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anthony Stewart Head
= Rupert Giles, from “Buffy the Vampire Slayer”
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Oct 8, 2009 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it was Philip Bretherton from As Time Goes By
which is a great show with Dame Judy Dench btw.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 8, 2009 8:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would have Kennedy back
If he isn’t playing full time, and is getting paid less then $2 mil.
The story I saw somewhere about him having a pep talk with Gio after a bad Gio start, and then Gio pitching well after that impressed me.
With amount of kiddies we’ll have next year (the ’09 crop PLUS Carter and Wallace and Cardenas), we could use some leadership like that – as long as it is cheapish.
And I’ll say for like the 232983748923th time….
Glaus, yes pls.
Is this the real life-
Is this just fantasy-
Caught in a landslide-
No escape from reality-
by Daniel777 on Oct 7, 2009 11:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Why no mention of Figgins anywhere?
Are we tired of arguing about him?
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Oct 8, 2009 1:39 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Too expensive
DO NOT WANT
Is this the real life-
Is this just fantasy-
Caught in a landslide-
No escape from reality-
by Daniel777 on Oct 8, 2009 2:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too rally monkey
DO NOT WANT
Lay down, black gives way to blue.
Lay down, I'll remember you.
by danmerqury on Oct 8, 2009 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want Figgins
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
by mikeA on Oct 8, 2009 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me too.
The question is how much would we pay. 5/$50M?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 8, 2009 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not that much
problem is I want him the next couple years, but I don’t really want him after that.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
by mikeA on Oct 8, 2009 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holy god that would be a terrible idea
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 8, 2009 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too expensive
getting too old, wants too long a contract
by PL78 on Oct 8, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
When people start talking 5/50M, I start getting nervous twitches.
Because he’ll be 36 by the end of it.
A speedster at 36.
36
by eastbayexpat on Oct 8, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Figgins
Can’t even steal bases that well anymore. He is definately on the decline and will be grossly overpaid. Remember that bullet we dodged with Furcal? This is like 10x that.
by DrDoom on Oct 8, 2009 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did we really?
Furcal was pretty good this year.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 8, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Furcal
He was pretty far below average at the bat this year. I would expect him to only get worse as he ages.
Visit my sports blog: Triple Slash Sports
by nobodyinparticular on Oct 8, 2009 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I assume you are kidding...
I don’t want to get into another argument. Pennington put up better numbers in his stint with the team.
by DrDoom on Oct 8, 2009 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And yet was still a 3.3 WAR player.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 8, 2009 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In his small sample size, Pennington put up better numbers than like 3/4 of MLB shortstops
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 8, 2009 11:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Over the whole year BB-Pro thinks he had about a .257 MLEqA.
That strikes me as a reasonable expectation for 2010. That probably translates to a .320 or .325 wOBA I’d guess.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 9, 2009 12:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure
I’m not saying Pennington is as good as his 2009 line (odds are that he isn’t). Just that criticizing a shortstop for not being as good as Pennington’s 2009 line is somewhat asinine. It would be similarly asinine to carp about Pennington if HE puts up the line you just projected next season.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 9, 2009 2:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Christ you guys are nuts
You go ahead and tell people paying $10 million to Furcal is a good idea. Everyone else will just continue thinking you two (are you different people?) are crazy. Even if thats not your point don’t argue a tertiary point I make if it doesn’t suite your argument. Don’t pick a fight just to pick a fight.
Pennington over-performed sure. He also cost millions of dollars less. We dodged a bullet any way you look at it… even if Pennington never played. I’m not justifying anything with Pennington’s performance.
I’m trying to have a conversation and you are playing got-cha. Grow up. Try being a nice person… you will find yourself much happier in general.
by DrDoom on Oct 9, 2009 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not crazy.
Furcal’s performance this year was worth roughly 15 million dollars. Also, it might be wise to offer evidence as to why Furcal wasn’t worth 10 million dollars before accusing anyone else of being crazy.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Oct 9, 2009 10:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sigh
If you can’t see that his performance this year would have been a great disappointment to us, then I can’t help you.
I could post his stats but you could also just look at them.
We did a lot better by not signing him. Call it luck, call it whatever you want. We will probably do better next year too even if he performs better than whoever we play… because we will save $9 million. Unless of course he returns to his 2008 form… possible but not likely.
You go ahead and keep arguing for a team with Furcal and Figgins at $20 million a year for the next 3+ years… you won’t find a lot of support.
I’m done with this thread.
by DrDoom on Oct 9, 2009 11:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
Making statements like this:
If you can’t see that his performance this year would have been a great disappointment to us, then I can’t help you.
doesn’t do anything other than piss me (and I’m betting a whole bunch of other people) off.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Oct 10, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
1. It probably wasn’t worth that much. His uzr was an outlier relative to his career.
2. Even if you think he was worth that much because of the defense, his defensive projection for next year will still be a lot less, and the mediocre hitting is a bad sign.
3. The A’s were offering him a four years at a 2.5-3 WAR rate. His production should be expected to decline somewhat each year, so the hope for these contracts is that they guy does better in WAR terms than the average of the contract for the first couple years to compensate for probable decline, and Furcal barely if at all did that, so the contract the A’s were offering would not be looking so good.
So:
I think it would be reasonable to say based on Furcal’s season that we would be regretting it. “Dodged a bullet” is possibly a little strong, but I think it’s fair to say it would have been a mistake given how things have worked out.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
by mikeA on Oct 10, 2009 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a good point about Furcal's UZR numbers.
I hadn’t realized that he’s actually been below average for his career. Also, I agree that had we signed Furcal to that contract, we’d probably be regretting it in future years if current trends continue. But while UZR may have inflated his defensive numbers this year, I think it’s still entirely possible that he may have overperformed relative to his career average this year, maybe just not up to what UZR stated. That said, I still think Furcal would have been worth in the neighborhood of 10 million dollars this year, and I don’t think the A’s would’ve regretted that performance.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Oct 10, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again I will observe that there's only one person
calling other people “nuts” and “crazy” in this conversation. (Not to mention repeatedly intimating that DFA and I are the same person, which is a. obviously silly given our different writing styles, and b. really getting tedious.) And it’s still not me.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 10, 2009 12:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a big jump from 07/08 (and before), so probably a bit too optimistic as a projection
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
by mikeA on Oct 9, 2009 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would prefer Glaus over Kennedy
If we are going to sign someone from 2002 Angels team… Kennedy simply has no upside, in 2009 he had OPS+ higher than 100 for just the second time in his entire career and he’s pretty much bound to take a step back next year. Not to mention the fact that he’s a nightmare at third base.
Glaus on the other hand is a great buy-low opportunity and when he’s healthy he can mash.
by Manstein on Oct 8, 2009 5:04 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
After redaing this
Most A’s fans are like Beane in the dark about who plays third next year. This is the biggest hole on the A’s. Beane will need to work over time on this. There are some good trade ideas but the question is will it be a 1 year fix or a player for the next 3 years? The good thing about A’s fans is they don’t make up what I call the Sabean trades. Like I will trade you Travis Buck for Ryan Zimmerman. If you ever want a good laugh check out the giants board talking about trading Freddie Lewis for Adrain Gonzalez.
by Arcman on Oct 8, 2009 8:06 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm still not sold on Pennington. That could be a big hole too.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 8, 2009 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
SS
Sure, SS could be a problem. I am not comfortable even penciling Pennington in for a +3 WAR player for the next 3 years, but he certainly has earned the opportunity to play next season and see what happens. If he fails next season, well we can look at our options.
Remember this is a rebuilding effort here. We just finished year 2 of 5. That means we have certain luxuries that teams like the Yankees don’t have—on-the-job training/evaluation being one of them. We don’t have to go out there and spend prospects or free agent dollars to bring in a guy on a 5 year deal who will perform up to his salary maybe 2 years. Because we aren’t trying to go all-in as WS contenders. What’s more, we don’t have the luxury of being able to do that since we are on a tight budget.
Visit my sports blog: Triple Slash Sports
by nobodyinparticular on Oct 8, 2009 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Continuation...
If it turns out that Pennington fails, we have a prospect we just drafted who was projected to go #2 overall before he got injured at the beginning of last spring. He has the tools, skills and training to move VERY quickly up the farm system. It is conceivable that he could be knocking on the door mid-way through 2011.
Visit my sports blog: Triple Slash Sports
by nobodyinparticular on Oct 8, 2009 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
SS is weak around baseball
The talent at the position is lower than I can recall in recent years. Pennington will actually be fantasy relevant in deep leagues, which astounds me. Even more expensive guys like Tejada or Hardy have serious question marks.
I’d rather we plug the hole on the cheap with Pennington than dump even a few million into someone who might not be any better. If he sucks, we find someone else cheap to take his place. We should already have someone on the roster to back him up who might be able to fill in.
At least at third there are some better hitters available, athough we won’t spend the $$ for them.
I’d sign Glaus on a 1 year deal but based on what we are hearing about the A’s not wanting to sign aging veterans, I don’t think its likely.
by DrDoom on Oct 8, 2009 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d rather we plug the hole on the cheap with Pennington than dump even a few million into someone who might not be any better.
This. Incidentally, this is why the Cabrera thing was a bad move from day 1.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on Oct 8, 2009 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah also the draft pick hurts draftnicks like me
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 8, 2009 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I pretend Stassi was a second round pick
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 9, 2009 12:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well he wasn't and im bitter
there were a bunch of players that I really liked in the second/third round area. If we had another pick I think you could have gone with someone with a little higher upsided than Marks in the 3rd.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 10, 2009 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 9, 2009 12:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry. Wrong place.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 9, 2009 12:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get Gordon...
Ya he was a good prospect, but his ML service has been awful. Then you consider the fact that He will be moving to Oakland which makes his numbers even worse. Also we consider the fact that we have 2 ML candidates for 3B, and both are good (Wallace, Cardenas). So why would we trade some solid talent, for a bad player in a position where we do have depth. While I do agree that AK’s defense was less than stellar, the differences in defense isn’t enough to make up for the gap in offensive numbers.
I think that Kennedy should be the option for 2010, assuming Chavez isn’t hurt (hahaha). He is cheap, he produced well in a big park, and he is easily moved to 2B in the event Wallace or Cardenas come up, and we aren’t tangled up in a lengthy contract.
I'm the genius who said Chris Carter will slug .650 his rookie season.
by JamesCaprio on Oct 8, 2009 11:10 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
There's kinda that Ellis guy at 2B.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 8, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amazing how your roster fills up when you sign players who don't completely suck
Luckily, Adam Kennedy doesn’t make that problem any worse.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 8, 2009 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ya
Kennedy has better numbers, he should play over Ellis. Ellis plays eons better defense, but Ellis’s offense just isn’t up to par. Neither factor into our long term solution at 2B, thats either Cardenas or Weeks.
I'm the genius who said Chris Carter will slug .650 his rookie season.
by JamesCaprio on Oct 8, 2009 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not even sure how to respond to that.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 8, 2009 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You could say,
“I disagree. Ellis’s superior defense more than makes up for the inferior bat. And I’m not sure Kennedy’s bat is that much better than Ellis’s anyway.”
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Oct 8, 2009 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
more than makes up for the inferior bat. And I’m not sure Kennedy’s bat is that much better than Ellis’s anyway."
That would definitely NOT be the way to respond…. Yikes.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
by mikeA on Oct 8, 2009 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah that is all sorts of wrong.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 8, 2009 8:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmph to all of you.
You all need to learn the technique of gentle understatement.
If you goal is to actually speak to people, as opposed to to point at them and make fun, it’s a much more effective technique.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Oct 8, 2009 9:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's very rarely worth anyone's time to try to convince someone else that they themselves are wrong
The goal in these situations is to convince third parties, not the “opposing side.” That’s usually impossible and almost always impossible on the internet.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 8, 2009 11:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, a lot of third parties are put off by the
“ZOMG, you’re so fucking stupid” approach, too.
Look, I agree with you about Kennedy and Ellis, but the opinion expressed above was not so completely off-the-wall that relevant third parties might not share a similar thinking.
In his post, James acknowledged that Ellis’s defense is much better than Kennedy’s, but he still prefers Kennedy. That means he’s making one of two errors — either he is overestimating Kennedy’s bat, or he is underestimating the significance of defense (or, more likely, he’s doing some of each).
Now I agree with you that Ellis is actually a better bat than Kennedy, but the difference is not so stark that no one would doubt it. According to FanGraphs, Kennedy posted a .337 wOBA in 2009, compared to Ellis’s .310 wOBA for the same year, suggesting that this year at least Kennedy hit a little better. Looking at a few years prior, Ellis is generally better but most years the two are fairly close. My point is not to say that Kennedy is a better hitter, which I don’t believe to be the case, but there is enough evidence out there to require actual comparison and discussion as opposed to summary dismissal.
Regarding the value of defense relative to offense, I think James is way off, which is why my suggested response follows a pattern of (1) you’re wrong about valuing defense, and (2) you might want to reconsider your view on who’s a better hitter, too. I suppose you could have turned it around and said, “Actually, if you look more closely at the numbers I think you’ll find Ellis is a better hitter than Kennedy, and besides that defense is worth much much more than you’re allowing for.”
You say you don’t care about convincing James but only your only goal is to convince third-party observers. OK, fine. How do you figure that a sensible and measured rebuttal is less effective in doing that than a picture of an exploding head?
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Oct 9, 2009 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I didn't post that picture...
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 10, 2009 12:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here is my simple thing
Kennedy has better numbers, he should play over Ellis.
Is not a true statement and was backed up by no numbers. If the post said, I like Adam Kennedy I wouldn’t have responded the same way. But I have not seen any valid statistical argument that Kennedy should start over Ellis.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 10, 2009 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, if you truly believe that
it’s “usually impossible” to convince another person that he’s wrong, that suggests to me that either (1) the only people you ever converse with are macho competitive types who are more interested in winning arguments than learning anything, or (2) when you do let someone know he is wrong, you never learned how to do it tactfully enough that it doesn’t get his defenses up and make him stop listening to you.
In my experience, most people are perfectly willing to abandon a mistaken opinion in order to learn something from someone who knows better, so long as it’s presented in a constructive way without any “ha ha, I win and you lose” attitude.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Oct 9, 2009 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right iglew
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 10, 2009 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would say,
“Mark Ellis’ career wOBA is .326 and Kennedy’s is .317. And Ellis beats him in career OPS too, .740 to .721… so I’m not sure where the idea that Ellis’ bat is inferior comes from. Toodle-loo!”
by rebus on Oct 8, 2009 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like this?

There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 8, 2009 8:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree.
First of all, I think you’re not giving Ellis enough credit for his defense. It’s basically half of the game, and he’s lightyears ahead of Kennedy in that aspect of the game.
Offensively, Kennedy was good this year, but it seems like a fluke. He had a career year, and a lot of that was done in his first month here. After may, Ak’s month by month OPS went .602, .717, .594, and .884.
Keep in mind, of course, that "the best defense of Derek Jeter's life" ranks somewhere in between "the best fiscal responsibility of Mike Tyson's life" and "the best not-getting-assassinated-ness of James Garfield's life." -FJM
by travdog6 on Oct 8, 2009 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My argument
While Ellis is much further along in defensively, his offense has been historically bad too. Now I admit, he IS the best defensive 2nd baseman in the game today, despite what the writers of america think. However, Ellis is NOT going to be a part of our future.
IF, we had an established offense I would consider taking the defense, but we don’t. Next year we are going to have problems putting up runs. The player that will help us more is AK.
Then you consider the fact that Ellis is making 5 Mill a year to AK’s league minimum. Ellis’ defense is NOT worth 4.6 Million in my mind.
So basically I see the situation as…
Player A plays better defense, runs better and hits worse, but costs 4.6 million
Player B makes 400k, plays below average defense, hits better, plays mutliple position, and steals more bases.
Now consider your going to only have these players for 2 years at the most, and you have cheaper better options coming up.
IMO Player B makes more sense. Player B is AK.
I'm the genius who said Chris Carter will slug .650 his rookie season.
by JamesCaprio on Oct 8, 2009 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Adam Kennedy doesn't make 400k.
I mean, he does this year, but he won’t next year. Not even close.
Ellis has had a poorer offensive year than last year, and his 2009 defense was the worst of his career by UZR. He was only 1.8 FRAA when posting 17.4 and 10.1 FRAA last year and one before that. UZR requires a huge sample size—we can assume his mediocre defense numbers were a statistical fluke. Ellis didn’t regress by 15 runs in one offseason.
I mention this because even with Ellis’s poor offense and very mediocre defense, he was still overproducing his salary by about $400,000. We can assume a huge uptick in defense numbers, and even if his bat remains or dips lower, he’ll be well worth the $5.5 MM he’s owed next year.
Lay down, black gives way to blue.
Lay down, I'll remember you.
by danmerqury on Oct 8, 2009 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kennedy made in the neighborhood of what Ellis did this year
Most of it was paid by the Cards.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Oct 8, 2009 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We inherited Tampa Bay's minor-league contract.
I know the Cards are still paying him $4MM, but do we pay him the minimum for that minor-league contract, on top of what he’s getting from the Cardinals?
Lay down, black gives way to blue.
Lay down, I'll remember you.
by danmerqury on Oct 8, 2009 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the way it works is whatever he makes comes out of what the Cards owe
so they would have paid him like $3.7.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
by mikeA on Oct 8, 2009 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention his post appears unfamiliar with the concept of sunk costs
Ellis is getting paid $5.5M next year one way or another, and whether he plays or not has nothing to do with that.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 8, 2009 11:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ellis vs. Kennedy 2006-2009
Ellis: .257/.322/.404: 95 ops+
Kennedy:.270 /.327/.374: 85 ops+
OPS+ difference reflects Ellis playing in a tougher park and tougher league.
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
by mikeA on Oct 8, 2009 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looks like offensively they're on par
With Ellis’ defense, it’s a joke to compare them, especially when Kennedy may be getting more money than Ellis next year.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Oct 8, 2009 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd be very surprised if he made 5+ million
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
by mikeA on Oct 8, 2009 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's unlikely, but possible
Too often they pay for past performance. Odds are he’ll get in the neighborhood of what he was making in his Cards’ contract which is around Ellis. Probably less, but not out of the realm of stupidly possible of making a little more.
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
by DMOAS on Oct 8, 2009 8:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just for fun...
Mark Ellis’ UZR at 2B in 7,312 2/3 innings: 7.7
Adam Kennedy’s UZR at 2B in 10,045 2/3 innings: 8.1
I imagine others were aware of their similar defensive values, but I’m not ashamed to admit that I was shocked when I saw that. Of course, there may be something I’m missing about UZR that might cast these numbers in a different light, so I’ll humbly defer to the experts here.
All in all, I’d still take Ellis for his offense. Never thought I’d say THAT about Ellis, BTW…
by CletusSJY on Oct 8, 2009 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Youre right Kennedy was a good fielder before 2005
good thing I don’t give a flying [use your own noun] about past performance if it is not likely to indicate future performance.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 8, 2009 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Basically then you need to be able to A, sign AK for 400k and trade Ellis since his contract is guaranteed
otherwise you have player B who is projected to be worse in every category for 5m which really makes even less sense than the crazy idea that Kennedy will be better than Ellis next year.
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 8, 2009 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't mind Placido Polanco for 3B to start out. He could even cover SS if
Pennington pulled a Mike Aviles. Also he isn’t coming off an All-Star year like Figgins and probably wouldn’t command as big of a deal.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 10, 2009 11:48 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
A new name to consider
MAT GAMEL, who is reportedly available thanks to Casey McGehee. He would be worth a decent amount of prospects, but he could project as similar as Wallace does. Regardless, he’s definitely more ready than Wallace and if not, could easily flip with Wallace at AAA.
or you could turn him into a LF like the Brewers were trying to do. but this post is about 3B options
by PL78 on Oct 10, 2009 2:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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