Carter To Winter Ball Could Be A Breaking Development
by Nico on Oct 3, 2009 6:08 PM PDT
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PrintWhat do I mean by this? Well knowing me, there's probably a pun in there somewhere. And sure enough, knowing that he's a member of the A's organization, I am fully expecting that when Chris Carter plays Winter Ball he will pull a Juan Rivera and break a leg. (Should I wish him good luck?)
But in the extremely unlikely off-chance that Carter comes out of Winter Ball with all his body parts intact -- let's just say he doesn't frequent the same bars as Angel Villanova does -- Winter Ball could be just what the doctor ordered for Chris Carter: the chance to see a ton of breaking pitches.
Here's what I wonder. When we look at how much minor league time a player has had at various levels, in order to help determine how likely he is to be ready, how much should one factor in Winter League play? Carter has spent just part of one season at AA and part of one season at AAA, yet by spring training he will also have spent a full season (or at least until he breaks a leg) against a similar level of competition.
If Carter comes to spring training handling breaking pitches like a guy whose Winter Ball time got him over a major hurdle, and he "looks ready for prime time," is he still "not ready because he's only had one season above A-ball," or is he "ready like you might expect after more like 2 seasons above A-ball"?
I'm not especially suggesting that Carter should be seriously considered for the April, 2010 roster; I'm just wondering how valuable it might be -- including how valuable in speeding up the timetable for him being truly ready for the big leagues -- for Carter to get a full Winter Ball season to hone his skill at recognizing and hitting offspeed pitches. Because whenever that falls into place, the BEAST will officially be on the loose and the A's will suddenly have a big piece of their future -- literally and figuratively -- in the big league lineup.
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If he shows he's at least decent against anything but fastballs...
…I say go for it.
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i read a couple of weeks ago that the A's wanted Carter to play winter ball
in Mexico, as that league is known as a “breaking ball” league. So it’s not “breaking news” in that sense.
As for the other sense — JINX!!!
Exactly my thinking -- how perfect for Carter to spend time
in a league where he’s likely to see a ton of breaking pitches. It could accelerate his timeline, whatever that might be, by 2-3 months.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Hopefully playing LF full time.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Just DH him then.
or don’t send him.
He should be playing OF as well if he wants to accelerate his promotion to MLB.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
Given their defensive acumen at the position,
I’d like to see Barton and Doolittle battle it out for “1Bman of the future” with Carter working on mastering LF. By mid-season, this lineup could be pretty darn good offensively and defensively going forward:
R. Davis – CF
Sweeney – RF
Cust – DH
Carter – LF
Wallace – 3B
Suzuki – C
Barton/Doolittle – 1B
Ellis – 2B (to be replaced in 2011 by Cardenas)
Pennington – SS
Also in the mix: Cunningham/Hairston
Now swap JJ Hardy in for Pennington and your team is as good defensively, and has a little more — and potentially a lot more — pop offensively…
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'd put him 2nd, but Sweeney's not really a #3 hitter IMO
You could flip Sweeney and Cust, though (I like Cust at #2, personally). Generally, I like Cust ahead of the heavy hitters more in OBP situations, not so much later in the order in RBI situations.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Sweeney batting second?
CuttheMullet, from "The Thread":
"Whenever I’m about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing."
Sweeney
He’s hitting third now, or he was hitting third before his injury. He could hit second. It probably fits him better.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Oct 4, 2009 12:00 AM PDT up reply actions
I love Sweeney batting second
What you fail to understand in your joyless myopia is that baseball is the key to life-- the Rosetta Stone, if you will. If you just understood baseball better all your other questions your, your... the, uh... the aliens, the conspiracies they would all, in their way be answered by the baseball gods.
Why do I still get teased with the possibility JJ Hardy in an A's uniform?
:(
sigh….
Zeigler to Geren…."A-Rod? He’s my bitch." -alox
More ABs against better competition could not possibly be a bad thing.
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que es lo que dijo
Is this the real life-
Is this just fantasy-
Caught in a landslide-
No escape from reality-
Dude. If he breaks a leg and fulfills those Jermaine Dye comps I’ve heard I’m gonna Jeff Gilooly your ass.
Seriously though, if he keeps it up in winter league and can play a good LF then I think he’ll be in contention for a job next spring in Oakland.
by chri5 on Oct 3, 2009 9:51 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
I'm still of the opinion that the "position" that Carter should be learning is DH
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Interesting
When Eric Chavez came to the major leagues, he was a crap third baseman, and learned how to be arguably the best fielder in his position playing at that time. Chris Carter is 22 years old, has spent a half season in AA and a half season in AAA, can play adequately at first base and in the outfield, and you’ve already given up on his ability to improve his fielding capabilities.
This is a very un PT like position, PT
Carter’s value is so immensely greater if can play a league-average defensive LF than if he becomes a career DH, and there’s no reason, at this point, to think he might not be fully capable of developing into a decent LFer.
Why wouldn’t you want him playing LF to see what he can do and how much he can improve? You only groom 22 year olds to be DHs because they’re clearly hopeless defenders, not because they’re currently doing “ok” at one position but might actually be better suited to another.
If Carter needs to move to DH someday, he can learn the art of DHing on the job like every other DH. Now is not that time.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I - gulp - agree with nico on this one
I don’t imagine he’ll be bad enough in the field to merit taking away his position before he gets started.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Agreeing with me is hardest the first time
After that, it gradually gets easier. Just ask all the people who have agreed with me more than once (if you can find any).
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I recall PT sees Wallace as more of a 1B/DH type too
Carter and Wallace can’t both play DH, I know that much.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
We're pretty far away from that problem, though
First they both have to be able to hit big league pitching — likely, but already no sure thing. Then Wallace has to move from 3B to 1B, and from 1B to DH, which is not going to happen that quickly if it happens at all. And Carter has to be bad enough in LF that it’s not worth keeping him there in his early-to-mid 20s.
A better solution, IMO, is to bring Wallace up at 3B, Carter in LF, ready to move Wallace to 1B as needed. That sustains you through 2011, with Cardenas ready to plug in at 3B if Wallace can’t hack it there, at 2B if Wallace can.
Those worried about the A’s having two DHs in Wallace and Carter should realize that at the moment they can have zero. DHing should be in their distant (3+ years) future, not in any upcoming plans.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Agreed
And Carter looks anything like a big stiff to me. Like you say though, we’re not looking at this being an immediate thing anyway. They’ll have their chances to make it in the field.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
have you seen carter in left?
is that where he is stiff? I imagine watching games for you is different, since you are working and paying attention to a shot you might want.
My own opinion is flyballs can be hard to read, but if you take a million of them it gets easier. I have no explainaiton for them clanking off your glove.
I've seen him in LF a couple times and he handled everything hit to him fine
And that’s not bad for someone who hasn’t played the position exclusively.
I’ve seen him more at first base and haven’t had many chances to see anything hit right at him, but he did botch one by not getting the glove in the right spot (though I couldn’t tell if it was a bad hop or not). Anyone will do that once in a while but it’s tough to really say he’s this or that in the field without seeing him at those positions a lot. One or two games isn’t enough for an accurate assessment.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
This.
Many of the scouting reports I’ve read say that Carter is quite athletic and mobile for his massive, massive body size. He just has poor hands and instincts at 1B. It sounds like LF wouldn’t be too difficult for him.
Wallace, on the other hand, has poor range, but good hands and instincts at 3B. If his range ever deteriorates further, to the point where he can’t play third anymore, he should be able to handle 1B well.
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Disagreed
You don’t just take a 22-year old who’s made solid progress every year in the minors with the bat and say “Forget it, your future is as a DH.” That is so limiting. If he shows he CAN’T hack it with a glove, ala Jack Cust, then sure. That’s a different story. But he’s hardly even had a real chance to prove it one way or the other. The fact the A’s are trying him out at different positions shows they want him to be able to do more than just DH if he can.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
I'll just handle all of this at once, since it's basically of a piece
I know that he’s potentially a more valuable player in LF than at DH. The problem is that he has been astoundingly bad anywhere he’s played in the field so far in his career. We don’t have full-season TotalZone numbers for this year, but last year he cost the Ports 5 runs in 10 games in right field. Brad Hawpe couldn’t do that poorly out there. His numbers at first and third are similarly vile, as are the scouting reports. He’s as close to “clearly hopeless” as you’re ever going to get in a 22-year-old prospect.
Meanwhile, we know that DHing takes value out of a lot of players’ bats because of the unusual role. It would be a good idea to see if it will do so with Carter’s, or if he can handle the role. If he can, then you put him there and have done with it. If not, then you have to figure out how to hide him somewhere on the field.
Right now the A’s are putting the cart before the horse.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
My counterpoint to that
He may have been bad at some of those positions before, but I’d be willing to bet he didn’t have very much coaching in actually playing those positions. Until that happens, I think it’s premature to say he can’t play the field. In the minors you often see some players in different positions in large part to see how they do there, but without a lot of coaching there it has the sense of just throwing them out there to see how they do.
Now, THAT is where you probably start to get a sense of whether or not it’ll be worth spending the time to coach them further, but there’s only so much I think we can take away from a few games here and there. The upside is as long as Carter has athletic ability he’s young enough that they have time to work on things. The problem, if you can call it that, is his progress with the bat is making it difficult to just keep him somewhere long enough to spend that time.
Eric Chavez spent about two full seasons in the minors and most of that was between High-A and Double-A. He didn’t come to the bigs a polished fielder but he did get some great coaching that made a big difference. Carter’s had twice as many games in the minors as Chavez but he doesn’t have a defined, definite position yet. They’re still working on that and I think next year is when we’ll start to see them make more of a decision on where they think he’ll play.
I wouldn’t just write him off as being a DH only, though. Not yet.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
I'm not "writing him off"
DHing well is a skill. Some players have that skill, and some don’t. Some need to develop the skill. I would like the A’s to try to develop that skill in Carter. Among other things, we’re already fairly sure that Jack Cust doesn’t have it. He’s hit significantly worse as a DH than as a field player.
Treating the position like it’s only for “failures” is the wrong approach.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
That's a good point, though I don't necessarily look at it as something only for defensive failures
But at the same time I’m loathe to take someone as young as Carter is and think of him as best-suited as a DH without truly giving him a fair chance as a fielder first, and that means more than just a handful of games at any position he hasn’t been properly coached at. Whether or not he can handle the mental side of being JUST a hitter is one thing, but I believe his value is greater as more than that.
Further, from what you’ve said so far I don’t see this as a case of you thinking he’s best-suited as a DH mainly because you think it’s a skill worth developing, but because you believe he won’t amount to much in the field. In that sense, it does read as you suggesting he’s a failure as a field player or at least will be.
Last of the Ninth - Photography
Well, the skill aspect of DHing only takes you so far
Evan Longoria might have that skill, but it wouldn’t make any sense for anyone to find out…
In a sense, it’s only an option for guys who’ve failed to develop fielding skills, but my point is that if you emphasize the fact that the position DOES have unique skills/requirements and that a player CAN return to the field if it doesn’t work for him, it won’t feel like as much of a “demotion”.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
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