What Went Wrong in 2009: 2b
This is the second part of my series. You can find the first part here.
Last week in What Went Wrong: The title of this series is What Went Wrong in 2009. Why was it that many projections saw the A’s either ahead or right behind the Angels in the division yet the A’s finished in last? As we saw, 1b was the epitome of the A’s season. We expected Adam LaRoche of 2008 at 1b and we got the Aubrey Huff of 2009. 2009 A’s 1b managed to amass –11.0 runs instead of the 16.3 we expected. A’s 1b were nearly 3 WINS worse than expected. In other words, if you expected the A’s to win 85 wins in 2009 (about what I recall expected), and you were given the data from A’s 2009 1b, the prediction would become 82 wins. And that was including Barton’s late surge.
You might think, or at least hope, that one needs look no farther than 1b to see the culprit for our lost season. But that wouldn’t be much of a series! And I’m starting to like making these tables and graphs:
Second base has been a good position for the A’s for the last few years. In the years since 2005, Mark Ellis put up 4.4 wins, 1.6 wins, 3.9 wins, and 3.1 wins. That’s an average of 3.25 wins. It seemed pretty likely that the A’s could get around 3 wins again from the only healthy player who had played with the A’s on their last playoff team (and he had played on the last 3 playoff teams!)
But Ellie did have one weakness. That weakness had possibly cost the A’s a World Series birth. Ellis was, and could be predicted to be, fragile. Ellis had played in 122, 124, 150, and 117 games in the last four years. Ellis should not be confused with Chris Snelling anytime soon but he ain’t Miguel Tejada either. Ellis was averaging around 128 (121 without the 150 outlier) games in years where Bobby Crosby didn’t run into him. But not to worry the A’s now had a backup who had been a starter his whole career! The aforementioned BoCro!
Now when I made my FP predicting playing time, OCab hadn’t signed and Crosby hadn’t been relegated to backup duty but here was my prediction:
Prediction:
Ellis 530
Pennington 90
Hannahan 25
Petit 25
Patterson 20
Since Hannahan would no longer be the primary backup with Crosby and Hannahan on the bench, give Hannahan’s PAs to Crosby.
Again now we can look at better predictors than me:
| Projection System | Ellis | Pennington | Crosby | Petit | Patterson |
| Bill James | .324 | .302 | .303 | None | .324 |
| CHONE | .326 | .295 | .296 | .280 | .312 |
| Marcel | .316 | .328 | .291 | .342 | .305 |
| Oliver | .324 | .300 | .304 | .291 | .319 |
| ZiPS | .321 | .283 | .289 | .285 | .290 |
| Average | .322 | .302 | .297 | .300 | .310 |
| Average-2 | .323 | .299 | .296 | .285 | .312 |
A couple of comments on the table:
The data are all wOBAs. Remember: wOBA is on the same scale as OBP: .400 is really, really good. .300 is really, really bad. That three of the five players have wOBAs have predictions within 2 points of .300 should be a scary thought.
League wOBA was .328 in 2008. Ellis was basically the only second baseman with a semi-respectable wOBA projection for 2009. And even his is on the low end of respectability.
Average-2 is the Average of the three middle wOBA scores. Basically it eliminates the highest and lowest projections. Average-2 should be the preferred projection system for the three guys with very limited major league time. Marcel regresses a TON to league average and/or career stats. Simply look at Petit and Pennington’s projected wOBAs compared to the other system’s projections.
As interesting as it would be to see Patterson get a full season of PT, the projections have pretty much given up hope. A .312 wOBA won’t cut it at 2b, much less LF where Patterson’s defense best plays.
| Player | PA | wOBA | wRAA |
| Mark Ellis | 530 | .322 | -0.47 |
| Cliff Pennington | 90 | .299 | -2.27 |
| Bobby Crosby | 25 | .297 | -0.67 |
| Gregorio Petit | 25 | .285 | -0.93 |
| Eric Patterson | 20 | .312 | -0.28 |
| Total | 690 | .320 | -4.62 |
The wRAA values are calculated from a league wOBA of .328 (the average wOBA in 2008). The wOBA in the last row is reverse engineered from total wRAA.
We may have been excited to see a better offense in 2009. One thing was clear from the projections: that better offense was not going to come from 2b. Maybe Ellis could pull his 2005 stats from nowhere. No projection system was seeing it. And frankly none but the most optimistic of fans were either.
We’ve now calculated what offense we expected from our 2b. That offensive line was most similar to the Raiders’: it sucked. Just kidding (sorry 67M). The line was most similar to the 2008 line of….Mark Ellis. Ellie had put up –4.7 offensive runs in 2008.
But Ellie had been a very valuable commodity in 2008. How had he done that? Well he had done it on the other side of the diamond: with his glove. Ellie had put up an absolutely remarkable 17.4 UZR. He played 110 DG* making his UZR/150 a whopping 23.7. That 17.4 is in the range of guys like Andruw Jones and Adam Everett. Basically, Ellie was playing defense at a rate only 2-3 players in the majors can do. And that’s not just at 2b, but all defensive positions.
I explained the DG stat last time but in case you missed it: DG stands for Defensive Games. It’s the funky statistic Fangraphs uses to calculate UZR/150. It’s supposed to measure how many "games" a defender saw in a season. It is NOT Innings/9.
Now the question was could Ellis keep up his ridiculous pace of 2008 in 2009? In 2007, Ellis put up 10.1 UZR in 163 defensive games. 2006 saw 6.3 in 116. 2005 was almost the same: 6.3 in 115. These four complete seasons give us about the same amount of information as one and a third offensive seasons. In total Ellis had put up 40.1 UZR in 504 DG from 2005-2008. That’s a UZR/150 of 11.9.
Here’s where it gets tricky. We’ve predicted 690 PAs for 2009 A’s 2b. For simplicity, let’s assume that between those 2b, they’ll see 162 DG. In theory, this would be true. In reality….well we’ll get to that later. So, to estimate the DG each 2b sees we’ll just use the formula PA/690*162.
Ellis’ 530 PAs gives him 124 DG. Pennington gets 21. Crosby 6. Petit 6. Patterson 5. Ellis’ 11.9 UZR/150 gives him 9.84 UZR. Now here’s where it gets extra tricky. Of the four remaining 2b, three had such small samples in the majors that their UZR data are meaningless and one had only played at SS in the majors. Given the uncertainty in defensive data, and the small amount of DG for all of the 2b but Crosby, even Pennington (even if Pennington was a +10 defender, he would only put up 1.4 UZR), I’ll assume that collectively they’ll put up .16 UZR. Since Pennington is a SS and he has the most DG, a slight positive would probably be expected.
Together that gives us this line:
| Player | wRAA | UZR | Replacement | Positional | Total Runs |
| A’s 2009 2b | -4.62 | 10.0 | 23 | 2.5 | 30.9 |
Well just as we could have guessed from Ellie’s lines by themselves: we were expecting around 3.1 wins from the 2b slot in 2009. So, what happened? Look no further:
| Player | PA | wRAA | wOBA | DG | UZR | UZR/150 | Positional | Replacement | Total Runs |
| Mark Ellis | 410 | -6.40 | 0.310 | 148 | 1.8 | 1.6 | 1.48 | 13.67 | 10.55 |
| Adam Kennedy | 222 | 6.10 | 0.362 | 63 | -4.6 | -11.2 | 0.80 | 7.40 | 9.70 |
| Gregorio Petit | 22 | -2.00 | 0.219 | 9 | -1.9 | -32.7 | 0.08 | 0.73 | -3.09 |
| Eric Patterson | 19 | -0.40 | 0.302 | 7 | -1.7 | -41.2 | 0.07 | 0.63 | -1.40 |
| Bobby Crosby | 17 | 0.30 | 0.348 | 2 | 0.3 | 22.9 | 0.06 | 0.57 | 1.23 |
| Jack Hannahan | 2 | 0.20 | 0.446 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.01 | 0.07 | 0.27 |
| Total | 692 | -2.2 | 0.325 | 229 | -6.1 | -4.0 | 2.5 | 23.07 | 17.27 |
Okay, so what does all that data mean? Well, let’s start with the biggest piece. Ellis got 410 PAs. If you’re too lazy to scroll up I predicted he would get 530 PAs. So, I was off by 120. Oh well, you win some; you lose some. With the PAs he did get, he put up a .310 wOBA. The average prediction was .322. The difference between the .310 wOBA and a .322 in 410 PAs is about 4 runs.
While Ellis lost about 5 runs from his prediction with his bat, the biggest problem was with his glove. Ellis put up a 1.8 UZR in 148 DG. It’s remarkable that Ellis could lose 10 runs, a full win, off his prediction and still put up a positive UZR. But he did.
Now going into the year, we knew Ellis was semi-fragile. I predicted that the replacement Ellis would need at some point would come in house. I predicted it would arrive in the form of Cliff Pennington. But the A’s were trying to contend, and looking at Pennington’s predicted .299 wOBA, it’s understandable why the A’s would look outside the organization.
Soon after the calendar turned to May, Ellis suffered a calf strain. He was out 4-6 weeks. Beane looked outside to Tampa Bay. He acquired Adam Kennedy. Kennedy proceeded to hit remarkably upon arriving in Oakland. Kennedy hit 448/.515/.655 in Week 7 and started gaining some attention for his remarkable line.
Kennedy was very good with the bat the whole time he played 2b. He of course did not keep up his near .450 average or 1.165 OPS, but he still finished with a well above league average .362 wOBA buoyed by his early season run. That was good for his 6.10 wRAA. His glove really hurt his play. Kennedy had a reputation for being a solid glove and his 21.8 UZR/150 in 2008 backed it up. Of course, his 2006 and 2007 UZRs weren’t nearly as good. But his 2003-2005 were very, very good*.
*Ah, defensive stats, you do love to torture us, don’t you?
In 2009, the UZR again confused us. He put up –4.6 UZR good for a –11.2 UZR. That’s what we’d expect out of Eric Patterson instead of Kennedy. But counting replacement, Kennedy still was good for 9.70 runs, almost a full win. Ellis was only worth 10.6 runs. All things counted, Kennedy has to be the second biggest, or at least, second best surprise for the 2009 A’s.
Remember that expression ‘you win some, you lose some’? Well my wins were the predictions of Patterson, Petit and Crosby. Crosby got 17 PAs. I predicted 25. Petit got 22 PAs. I predicted 25. Patterson got 19. I predicted 20. Combined they amassed 2.92 runs worth of value. I predicted 0.45.
In total the 2009 A’s 2b put up 17.3 runs of value. That was 12.7 runs less than our prediction. If we predicted 85 wins in 2009, the 1b data made it become 82. Given our second baseman data, we would have predicted 81 wins. I’ve only covered 2 positions, but we’re already predicting a .500 team. And I just analyzed a position where the A’s got a very nice surprise in the form of Adam Kennedy.
Going into 2010, the A’s have $5.5M committed to Ellis. Kennedy is a FA. Patterson, Petit, and Pennington are all under club control, although Patterson is out of options (not positive on that).
In my opinion, Ellis is a good bet for 2010. His UZR will probably revert back to a +7.5-+10 range. His bat will remain slightly below league average. He looks like a 2.5-3 win player. But because of Ellis’ fragility, it might make sense to invest in a backup 2b who’ll be able to provide what Kennedy provided in 2009. Frankly, I don’t think Kennedy can be that player again.
I see two options since I don’t think any player who we can expect to put up 1.0 win value in 200 PA will accept a bench job:
1. Sign a player who can spend most of their time at a different position and switch to 2b when Ellis is injured. In a perfect world, that could be Mark DeRosa. Another option might be a guy like Tejada or if you think way out of the box Adrian Beltre or Eric Hinske.
2. Go with the in-house candidate. Pennington would be OK (but in my perfect world, he’s part of the trade for Drew/Escobar/Hardy), but the true gem could be Cardenas midseason if and only if he’s ready and Ellis is injured.
Next up: 3b
7 recs |
112 comments
Comments
I'm liking the idea of Beltre, but I'm not sure he'd be excited about moving to 2B.
Chone Figgins is another option, but he’d be expensive. I think the most likely scenario is bringing up Cardenas ready or not. That’s just the way they do things….see Carlos 2008 and Cahill 2009.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 14, 2009 6:34 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Orlando Hudson???
"What a joke." ~ Booby Crosby
by MMunoz33 on Oct 14, 2009 6:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Placido Polanco
At least we wouldn’t have to pitch to him.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 14, 2009 8:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hinske at 2nd?
WHAT?
"just a beating heart ... plasma that we'll put into our uniform." - Billy Beane
by athleticsBB4life on Oct 14, 2009 7:12 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The idea is that 3b and 2b are similarly skilled defensively
It’s outside the box, sure, but it would be a very interesting experiment.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on Oct 14, 2009 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't Eric Hinske a godawful 3B?
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 14, 2009 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In 2006 he put up a 64.2 UZR/150 at 3b
His last real time at 3b came in 2004 when he put up a -5.0 UZR/150. He’s played a bit at the position each year though. Judging by how teams treat him they probably view him as a -5 fielder. Assume that Hinske looks to put up around a .340 wOBA (.344 in 2009, .347 in 2008).
Now if we can assume that a 3b can play 2b equally (rather big assumption, but see the Fangraphs articles on it), Hinske looks to be worth around 6 runs per 150 PA (.6 positional, 5 replacement, -2 fielding, 2 batting).
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on Oct 14, 2009 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is really pushing it
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 14, 2009 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
2b and 3b are equally easy to play,
but they require very different skills. And if Hinske’s better than a -7.5 3b, I’d be shocked.
by Elston Gunn on Oct 14, 2009 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The biggest problem with the 3b=2b argument
is there’s a sampling bias problem in that the guys who actually play both positions and are thus part of the data are the type of guys who teams think can play both. The data doesn’t include guys like, oh, Hinske, who no one really thinks could play 2b. That said, I don’t think it’s a bad idea actually. He’s a good hitter, can’t hurt as a reserve…
With stout hearts, and with enthusiasm for the contest, let us go forward to victory. ----Hero Defector Montgomery
by mikeA on Oct 14, 2009 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Hinske and would be happy for the A's to sign him on the cheap,
but he’s a DH and pinch-hitter who is passable in the OF. Sort of.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Oct 14, 2009 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
At worst case,
he’s a rich man’s Adam Kennedy. Hinske’s a better hitter and judging from Kennedy’s UZR at 3b, about the same fielder. Hinske’s also younger and likely to be cheaper. And Hinske has better platoon splits if you can find a 3b who hits lefties. Oh, and Hinske has experience in the OF.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on Oct 14, 2009 7:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Donnie Murphy!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Oct 14, 2009 7:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brett Wallace for second base!
"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."
by DyeLongJustice on Oct 14, 2009 8:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I mean, how much worse could his range be than Ellis'?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Oct 14, 2009 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I saw him at the bar the other night.
Not that I talked to him, but I spiked his drink with magic 2b juice. Hey, if Harry Potter can do it, why can’t I?
"If Bowden was a general contractor, he'd build houses with nine bedrooms, six garages, no bathrooms, and half a roof."
by DyeLongJustice on Oct 14, 2009 9:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I don't like about Beltre
Is that it’s very unlikely he signs a 1 year deal, or even a 1+option deal. That’s all I’d really want to commit to the guy, based on the fact that it’s highly probable that one of Wallace or Cardenas is ready to play 3B in Oakland full time starting in 2011.
Oh, and I also very much doubt that DeRosa or Hudson accept a bench role.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 14, 2009 8:06 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That's the beauty of getting a guy like DeRosa
He becomes the starting 3b, LF, RF, or wherever. It’s only when Ellis is injured that DeRosa slides to 2b. It is a problem with Hudson.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on Oct 14, 2009 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a feeling that DeRosa is like Tejada and Mora:
Guys who were a great idea to acquire a couple years ago, but who are worse and worse ideas with each passing season, until they become typical A’s mistakcquisitions.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Oct 14, 2009 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I doubt we make a big splash via free agency this offseason
The team is young, probably not prepared to win in 2010, more likely target is 2011, so my guess is wolf saves the money for run at 2011.
1B. Barton – I don’t see many other choices, he deserves another shot
2b. Ellis – last year of his deal
ss. Cliff
3B. ? Thats the question, Chavy? AK? or other one year fill-ins
LF S. Harriston
CF Raji
RF Sweeney
DH. Cust? My guess is this could get sticky, He probably wants a 3 year deal and the A’s will only want to give a one year deal with Carter and other again stars willing to fill the role and low price via FA
SP – should basically remain the same with a possible low end starter siging
RP – don’t see many big changes here other then getting rid of some dead weight.
I really think 2010 is going to look pretty similar on paper to 2009, the question becomes do we grow as a team?
by ryanmoser on Oct 14, 2009 10:33 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Cust has no bargaining power...
A’s still control his rights for a few more seasons and after a down year, he’ll be happy w/ his one year $3.5 arby salary
"just a beating heart ... plasma that we'll put into our uniform." - Billy Beane
by athleticsBB4life on Oct 14, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the COF/DH free agent market plays out like it did last year, I’m not sure hes even worth that
by NRC on Oct 14, 2009 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Problem with that is
Of those starting 9, I only see 2-3 who will play on the next A’s playoff team. And if the A"s are expecting to make the playoffs in 2011, they need a few more key veterans. Sweeney, Suzuki, and maybe Cust/Barton/Pennington simply aren’t good enough to lead a team full of rookies. One could call up some of the prospects midseason and hope they can get off their early struggles in 2010. I’m more inclined to semi- go for it.
Add a key SS with at least a couple years control. Add a 3b who either can be very good for a couple of years or call up a prospect midseason. On a less necessary note, get one more OFer or DH. I think those 3 moves could give the lineup with which the A’s could compete and be conductive to integrating rookies into.
If we wanted to go another route, I wouldn’t be against letting Cunningham (I won’t even mention Buck) play every day. That means we trade one of Raj or Hairston. Let all the youngsters show their value. Call up the rookies at all struggling positions midseason. Let them get their first big league experience. Frankly, I find it hard to believe that a rookie Chris Carter, Brett Wallace, and/or Cardenas could lead us to the playoffs. The A’s would need very solid role players surrounding them to compete 2011 and I don’t know if we have that if we decide to go all in-house.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on Oct 14, 2009 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I could see ryanmoser's scenario playing out, just with
Wallace slotting in at 3B by mid-May, Carter at 1B or LF by July, and Cardenas up around the ASB, all positioned to thrive in 2011.
My only quibble is that I don’t see Hairston here as much as I see Cunningham here, partly because Cunningham is the long-term future more than Hairston is and partly because I don’t think the A’s liked what they saw of Hairston, attitude-wise.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Oct 14, 2009 7:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
God, I hope that's true.
(About Hairston.) I really love me some Cunningham and hate me some righthanded platoon players playing everyday.
by Elston Gunn on Oct 14, 2009 7:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ellis cost the A's a "World Series Berth"???
You must mean 2006, right?? In a 4 game sweep?? I don’t having a guy with a 704 OPS that season and 84 OPS+ for the Tiger series would have made that much of a difference, no matter how bad Jiminez was. Scutaro, Thomas and Swisher didn’t hit a lick, either, and neither of his errors led to any unearned runs. There were a whole lot of candidates for costing the A’s that series before we ever get to Ellis being hurt.
by eliot123 on Oct 14, 2009 11:17 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I did mean 2006
And sure, Ellis probably didn’t cost the A’s a WS berth. But I can still see Ellis making some bit of difference if he played instead of D’Angelo Jiminez. I guess I’m just bitter and suffer recall bias.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on Oct 14, 2009 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I feel like the team fell apart after terrible defensive plays
on a couple of occasions in the Detroit series. I could be misremembering but I feel like that happened in Games 1 and 2, and after that, it was just about curtains time.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 14, 2009 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats what I remember too.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 14, 2009 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I feel like they didn't hit
As I said before, there were no unearned runs from either of Jiminez’ errors. Zito hit a wall. Swisher and Thomas, who were the best two hitters on the team that year of those who played every day (that means not you, Milton), went about 2-25 in those 4 games. The Tigers pitched better and played better. Aside from the fact that they were clearly the better team based on run differential. And “just about curtains time” because the A’s dropped the first two? Well gee I guess that means (in a 5 game series, no less) that we beat the Yankees in 2001 and the Red Sox in 2003. A better team would have/could have made a series out of it. That was a smoke and mirrors squad that finally hit the wall, Ellis or no Ellis.
I wish Ellis had been in there instead of Jiminez, believe me. But it wouldn’t have made a lot of difference in the outcome.
by eliot123 on Oct 14, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
agree, the team could not absorb those errors
it was akin to stacking bricks, one upon the other, until the pile grew so high, it fell over. Even though you knew “the fall” (D Jimenez errors) were inevitable, it was the anxiety about the buildup that made the actual result so hard for the Athletics to overcome, to ignore, as a team.
"It is the mark of a truly intelligent person to be moved by statistics. " GB Shaw
by One won lost won on Oct 14, 2009 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, ridiculously fragile for having fingers that can't stand up to a Joe Nathan fastball.
Prithee, be not perturbed by yon third bagger.
by Poppy on Oct 15, 2009 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
For next year I like Ellis at 2B
and Pennington is going to be busy as the starting SS so I don’t see him moving over to the other side of the bag.
Second base really isn’t a position I’m all that worried about for next year but I wait with bated breath about 3B as that has been a dead zone for awhile now and it needs to be addressed.
by sirbed on Oct 14, 2009 6:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm still waiting for Billy to casually buy low on JJ Hardy this Winter.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Oct 14, 2009 7:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
does Bobby Cox still hate Yunel Escobar?
I’d much rather have him, even if it costs more.
by Elston Gunn on Oct 14, 2009 7:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I may have some crazy ideas but this is PRIORITY #1
Get a guy like Escobar, Hardy, or Drew ASAP. It seems like I’ve been mentioning Hardy for the longest time but I’ve only been advocating for him since December ’07. He really could be the difference maker in 2010.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on Oct 14, 2009 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just curious, since I tend to have little to no idea about equity in trades
Buck and H-Rodriguez for Hardy. Which team should say no?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Oct 14, 2009 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not good with equity either, but
since I consider both Buck and H-Rod to be junk, my conclusion is that either (a) Hardy is also junk, or (b) that offer is a steal for the A’s.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Oct 14, 2009 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if Buck is junk, or just junk in Oakland
H-Rod strikes me as someone who will excite other teams, perhaps more than he should, but you may be right that Buck just isn’t highly regarded enough anymore to be a trade chip for someone of Hardy’s — at least past — pedigree.
Certainly, if I’m the Brewers and I’m in talks with Oakland I want young starting pitching. But I think the Brewers will be highly motivated to move Hardy this off-season and will settle for “best available talent” in return. Maybe that means substituting Cunningham for Buck to make it interesting to Milwaukee, or substituting Simmons for H-Rod —
Cunningham/HRod?
Buck/Simmons?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Oct 14, 2009 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those are incredibly light offers
0 top 100 prospects and no depth make for no deal.
Buck is generally viewed as a 4/5 OF er who is injury prone (according to KG) aka hes garbage. Simmons had about as bad a year as you can without having an arm injury for his type of pitcher and I wouldn’t want to rely on him being your 4/5 starter next year. So essentially you are trading the Brewers no MLB ready starting pitching and no CFer and no top prospects. In what world does that make sense for the Brewers when their needs are CFers ( and not corner OFers who they have plenty of) and solid MLB ready starting pitching, and a bridge to Hoffman, when they have extremely limited trading chips and a deteriorating core.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 14, 2009 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about Desme/HRod?
The upside special.
by Elston Gunn on Oct 14, 2009 9:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Although it depends on whether they're trying to contend next year...
If they are, I don’t think we have anything they want. Though I might be convinced to toss in 2 of Moretensen/Eveland/Simmons if that made them happy. Don’t think it’ll happen for a reasonable offer though, and Hardy probably isn’t anything more than a little below average with upside at this point, and he’d only be around for two years. I much rather target someone better, or controlled for longer, or just do nothing.
by Elston Gunn on Oct 14, 2009 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Btw, I don't think Cunningham/HRod is an incredibly light offer.
Cunningham would definitely be top 100, probably top 75 if he were eligible, and HRod is the kind of player that often gets overrated. I do agree that it doesn’t match the Brewers’ needs though, and I’m not really interested in giving up 6 years of 2.5 WAR Cunningham for 2 years of 2.5 WAR Hardy, anyway.
by Elston Gunn on Oct 14, 2009 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I overrated Buck and should have said Cunningham straightaway
Cunningham and H-Rod might interest the Brewers, who have Escobar entrenched now at SS and have a player, in Hardy, who has just performed like Bobby Crosby, albeit circa a few years ago.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Oct 14, 2009 9:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a bit harsh
Even in a year when Hardy was demoted for sucking so badly ( togetanextrayearofservicetime ), he still amassed 1.4 WAR, a feat Crosby hasn’t done since 2005.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on Oct 14, 2009 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha SBN thinks < cough > is actual html
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on Oct 14, 2009 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If only it were that easy.
Bioterrorism would be everywhere!
< H1N1 >
Lay down, black gives way to blue.
Lay down, I'll remember you.
by danmerqury on Oct 15, 2009 7:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crosby, his rookie season,
was a good defensive SS who hit for a low average but supplied 20+ HR power from the right side. So apparently Hardy’s floor is Crosby’s ceiling, whereas my ceiling can recognize a slider more easily than Crosby can.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Oct 15, 2009 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cunningham is exactly the type of prospect who slips through the cracks
I wouldn’t be surprised if no one ranked him in their top 100 were he eligible.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on Oct 14, 2009 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was 55 on BA's list last year,
and did nothing to harm his standing expect suck in a very small major league sample.
by Elston Gunn on Oct 14, 2009 10:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh not that I think he doesn't deserve it
He’s just exactly the kind of prospect who gets lost among all the shiny new toys prospect rankers love. Cunningham simply doesn’t do anything exceptionally and he’ll probably end up in LF.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on Oct 14, 2009 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, I'm just saying I think BA would have a
hard time dropping him 46 slots based on the year he had.
by Elston Gunn on Oct 14, 2009 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah it kinda is
Henriguez has a less than 2:1 K to BB ratio and walks more batters than a crossing guard walks kids across the street at an primary school.
Cunningham has always been seen as a low upside tweener that has put up good minor league numbers. Yet again he hasn’t hit MLB pitching, even thought the sample was small. He wouldn’t start over Corey Hart or Ryan Braun, or if Hart moved to center he probably wouldn’t start over Matt Gamel in RF. The Brewers are acquiring their fourth OFer since Cunningham can’t play MLB quality CF. Plus I see him being more of a 2 WAR player anyway, especially since his MLE suggested a 690 OPS translated performance.
It gives them our spare parts and nothing that they want if I was Melvin I would laugh briefly before hanging up.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 15, 2009 1:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, it's a light offer for the Brewers,
because they have better COFs, but I don’t think it’s light in a vacuum. I’d rather have Cunningham for 6 years than Hardy for 2, straight up.
by Elston Gunn on Oct 15, 2009 8:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The A's and Brewers actually match up very, very badly in terms of trade offers
Both teams need starting pitching, infielders, and center fielders. Both have too many corner/DH types.
Square peg, round hole.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 14, 2009 9:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
It’s not going to be worth it to deal with the Brewers.
by Elston Gunn on Oct 14, 2009 9:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that Buck would be better with a change of scenery.
That means I think he’s worth more to someone else than he is to us, which in my view makes him trade bait. Still doesn’t make him very valuable bait, though.
I also agree that the market at large tends to overvalue relievers who can throw really hard, so that makes H-Rod trade bait, too.
So yes, I’m on board for trading both of them. But I don’t think they’re worth enough to get anyone particularly good. I don’t know enough about Hardy to evaluate him.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Oct 15, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with all that
I think Buck WILL be traded this off-season, but I doubt the A’s will get anything exciting back in the package.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Oct 15, 2009 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the real question
Would you agree to change Sweeney for Buck in that deal? The Brewers are losing 4 WAR from their departing CF. They also have very little pitching behind Yovani Gallardo. They also have a 35 yo Jason Kendall as their catcher. It’s a team with quite a few holes. They have a great LF and a very good but soon to be expensive 1b. They have a rising star SS and a 3b who played better than expected. They have a top hitting prospect who’ll play full-time in 2010.
If the Brewers decide to go for it next year I think one could make an argument for a Sweeney and HRod/Simmons deal for Hardy from the Brewers perspective. Remember, if they try to compete, Hardy is the Brewers biggest trade chip. They aren’t going to let him go easily. There’s a weak SS market and some big teams looking for SSs: Boston, for one. Maybe you could substitute Raj and Donaldson for Sweeney. Maybe.
If the Brewers decide to rebuild, they could look for prospects for Hardy. In the long run, CF, 2b, and C look like big holes for the Brewers. They could trade Hardy for Weeks (reunite the brothers!), Donaldson, and a lesser prospect like Peterson/Sulentic. Then they could trade Prince to the BoSox for the pitching prospects they need. If I’m the Brewers, this would be the path I’d take. Their team is simply not good enough to compete in their division without better pitching. I have Prince’s replacement in house in Gamel and I shore up many of my holes. It would be unpopular but might be necessary.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on Oct 14, 2009 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man, I think you're seriously overrating Hardy.
Sweeney on his own is probably a 3 WAR player. I don’t think you can predict Hardy to be any better than 2.5-3 (at the highest). Considering that Sweeney is cheaper and controlled for longer, already I’m turning that deal down. I’m also hanging up if Melvin asks for Donaldson, Weeks . I just don’t see enough upside . Even if Hardy reverts back to his 4 WAR days, there’s very little chance 2-3 wins is going to push us into the playoffs in ‘10, and just a slightly higher chance that it would in ’11, and then he’s gone.
by Elston Gunn on Oct 14, 2009 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Positions of strength
SS has been a position of need for the A’s pretty much ever since Tejada left. Hardy is basically the only way the A’s can get a SS who can get be a 2+ WAR player until Grant Green. And that’s if Green works out. Plus, I work on extending Hardy. His value is at all time low, he’s in the middle of his prime, he’s a great fielder, he’s RH (if you care for that kind of thing).
Losing Sweeney hurts. But the A’s already have a guy who did very well in ‘09 (Davis), two guys who deserve extended shots (Buck, Cunningham), and a bunch of guys who you can put in the OF and get league average production in the next couple of years (Doolittle, Sulentic, Peterson, Brown, Spencer, Carter, Desme, Weeks if he becomes a CF). Then there’s Hairston who at the very least looks like a rich man’s Kielty. Play him in CF until he gains value. Then there’s questions about Sweeney’s defense (is he really that good?) and he is slightly brittle.
With so many options the A’s will be able to fill the OF. SS right now is basically hope Pennington is not a mirage…..wait for Grant Green. Maybe Cardenas could stick there for a year?
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on Oct 14, 2009 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Positions of strength or not,
you don’t trade a better, cheaper, younger, under-contract-for-longer player for a one whose the opposite of all those things, not to mention that you’re throwing in two other decent prospects. And I’m already heavily regressing Sweeney’s D in calling him a 3 WAR player—he was very nearly a 4 WAR player this year.
I think you’d be a lot better off signing Tejada on a two year deal and living with his defense than giving up all that talent for a younger, but similar player. I also think Pennington has a much better shot than you suggest of getting to 2 WAR—he can hit 7.5 runs below average and get there if he’s an average fielder, and there’s at least some reason to think he’s better than that.
by Elston Gunn on Oct 14, 2009 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sweeney becomes 3 WAR if you regress his fielding to +13
+13 is still pretty damn high. I mean I’d love for Sweeney to keep his best in the league defense, but I’m more inclined to think it’s statistical noise. Perhaps I’m biased because I’ve never been a huge believer in Sweeney and he did prove me wrong in 2009.
I’ve never been a huge believer in Pennington either. Pennington was predicted to put up a .299 wOBA going into the year! That’s -15 wRAA over 600 PAs. The dude’s 2009 MLE OPS was 0.587. Then he comes up and produces a .760 OPS and .332 wOBA. He slugged higher than he had since rookie ball. He had a .342 BABIP. That’s not terribly high for a fast LHH but still unsustainable. For context, his MLE BABIP was .259 (put a huge grain of salt on that number).
I’m sick and tired of these mother fing weak hitting SSs on this mother fing team! And therefore, as always, I blame everything on Bobby Crosby. QED.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on Oct 14, 2009 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, sure, Pennington sucks,
but Scutaro and Tejada will both be A LOT cheaper than the prospects you’re giving up, and probably nearly as good.
And I don’t think it’s at all unreasonable to think that Sweeney is a +13 RF, considering, he’s at about +25 in a full season’s worth of data—yes, I suppose I strict regression of that would give you about +8.5, but a) he’s got 2 seasons worth of total data in the OF that has him at +13.9, including half his time in CF, and b) even if he’s only +8, he’s still as good as Hardy.
by Elston Gunn on Oct 14, 2009 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Hmm, I just realized I did that regression totally wrong.
I am not a stats man at all. Anyway, I still don’t think it’s unreasonable to think Sweeney’s a really damn good defender.
by Elston Gunn on Oct 14, 2009 10:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm going to rec this post
Simply because you emphasized A LOT without making it one word.
Kudos to you, sir.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 15, 2009 7:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good lord
I’m sure Marco Scutaro will come about a zillion times cheaper than those packages.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 14, 2009 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
Sweeney is the only one of Simmons, Donaldson, HRod, Weeks, Peterson/Sulentic I hesitate about trading. Simmons is basically a nice insurance policy who is looking more and more like he’ll only spot start in the majors. Donaldson is a question mark without a true position who probably becomes a tweener. HRod is really a lottery ticket. Weeks is a guy who was probably a late first round, early second round talent who already is developing leg problems. Peterson/Sulentic are OK prospects if they played any position but COF.
I don’t know if any will be top 100 prospects. Weeks and Donaldson have an outside shot but neither made the top 20 in their league from BA.
The A’s are deep in hitters. It’s time they cash in some of the depth.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on Oct 14, 2009 10:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Weeks didn't make the top 20 because he didn't get enough PAs,
and it was kind of ridiculous that Donaldson didn’t make it. Sweeney’s already a very good player, and Weeks and Donaldson (especially Weeks) have a lot of upside.
by Elston Gunn on Oct 14, 2009 11:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
btw, I'm all for cashing in some depth,
but for someone better than Hardy.
by Elston Gunn on Oct 14, 2009 11:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you could make the same trade for Escobar
By all means, do it. The trade I proposed above is basically as far as I go. You can start with Nico’s offer and see how much Milwaukee values Hardy.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on Oct 14, 2009 11:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd much rather have depth
than a short-term lottery ticket prayer like J.J. Hardy. If I want one of those I’ll just buy one off the free agent market. Free agents are expensive, but they’re cheaper than rental trades.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 15, 2009 1:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still don't get this "without a true position" stuff.
Donaldson doesn’t have a “true position” because he’s being considered at positions he may or may not be very good at. But I’d still rather have a guy who might be able to play C and might be able to play 3B than someone who definitely can’t.
I mean, suppose you abandon it all and just move Donaldson to 1B right now, where I don’t think there’s any question he could handle it. Then he’d have a “true position”, but he’d suck because he doesn’t hit well for a 1B.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Oct 15, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Rec'd
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 15, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True position
But I’d still rather have a guy who might be able to play C and might be able to play 3B than someone who definitely can’t.
Or… he might not be good enough to start at either position regularly and then becomes a back-up which has a serious impact on his value/productivity to the ballclub. Looking a bit more big picture, if the A’s believe that Donaldson’s defensive skills (or lack thereof) will prevent him from ever being a starting caliber player and another team inquires about trading for Donaldson AND they indicate that they believe Donaldson is a starting caliber whatever then the A’s have an opportunity to take advantage of a sucker.
I can’t answer the questions everyone has about Donaldson’s defense. I don’t think the A’s can definitively answer at this time either. I do know that Lingo’s blurb about Donaldson being “OK” behind the plate is the highest compliment anyone has ever given about his current level of defensive acumen.
No, I’m not doing cartwheels.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Oct 15, 2009 8:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My thoughts exactly
There is at least a moderate chance that he doesn’t stick at C or 3B at the major league level. That makes him not so useful and just adds to the percent chance that he never makes it.
In all these things we are taking the potential and probability and trying to determine some future value. Many think Donaldson’s probability is high based on his walk rate and assume everything else will be fine. I think we should be discounting his probability of success until we have a sign that his defense will stick at either of those positions at higher levels. He could do well at AAA, but the A’s may hold him back an additional year or more to work on defense, and that would change his outlook drastically.
by DrDoom on Oct 16, 2009 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Show me 1 scouting report that says he will end up somewhere besides C or 3b
If you do Ill eat my hat.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 16, 2009 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This may not say "will" --
but then you understand that “will,” “may,” and “projects” are not the same — but it certainly doesn’t rule out other positions.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Oct 16, 2009 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, if you're watching your weight
may I recommend visor? Lighter fare and good with ketchup! :-)
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Oct 16, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't say will and it doesn't say that it is likely.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 16, 2009 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
From that article:
When 18-year-old hitters sign their first professional contracts, there’s one theme that just keeps recurring: the fact that most high school hitters have some serious patience to develop. That is, of course, unless your name is Josh Vitters. Already a polished hitter, Vitters carries the potential to both get on-base and slug at a high level.
Smile.
by Elston Gunn on Oct 16, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
youre right there were a couple of reports when he was drafted comparing him to Biggio that suggested he could play 2b
What I should have said is: Josh Donaldson will play a defensive position with a >2.5 positional adjustment.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 16, 2009 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
** ahem **
{holds out cap, visor, and urban sombrero, ketchup, mayonnaise, knife, and fork}
What looks good tonight? (I recommend starting with “visor in red sauce” but saving room for “sombrero tartarre.”)
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Oct 16, 2009 8:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
could and will are different
Corey Brown could probably play 1b if they wanted him to
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 16, 2009 9:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A scouting report would NEVER be able to
say what “will” happen, only what “is projected to” (“or likely to,” or “well might”) happen. You know, someone really ought to take you to task for confusing those two concepts.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to go revel in some irony!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Oct 16, 2009 9:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plenty of scouting reports say he will need to move positions
Jesus Montero for example will need to move from behind the plate.
Plus if you read the link it doesn’t actually say that he is projected or likely to move to second base.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 16, 2009 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Though obviously I over played my hand
I meant no one is suggesting that he move to 1b which is the logical position for him if he can’t hack 3b. Furthermore it is unlikley that he would be a 2bman since to my knowledge he has never played there. HS SS → College 3b → College/Pro Catcher.
"Since other people actually read these threads, though, probably best that your particular brand of wrongness not go completely unchallenged." - PT
There are differing opinions on me. According to Iglew "DFA is PT with a sense of humor. PT is DFA with introspective self-doubt. I like them both" but according to sirbed Im "The Stats Killer"
by designatedforassignment on Oct 16, 2009 9:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, nice work vignette17
Rec’d
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Oct 14, 2009 7:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Regarding Hardy...
Like PT mentioned above, I think the A’s and Brewers match-up pretty poorly in theoretical trade proposals. However, I still think the A’s should really put some effort into trying to acquire him, possibly as part of a 3-team deal. Hardy has some great range at short (something Pennington really doesn’t have) and the A’s will definitely need a shortstop with great range if they entertain the idea of playing Wallace at 3rd for a long-ish length of time.
If I’m the Brewers, I’m looking for starting pitchers that can step into the rotation immediately and be at least mid-rotation or quality back rotation types. They need to cash in on the Fielder/Braun combo while they still have it under team control, and will likely not be looking for “developing but promising” hurlers like H-Rod or Simmons in return for one of their major trade chips – Hardy.
I think the Brewers will eventually sign Wisconsin-native Jarodd Washburn for a year or two, but I think they’ll want at least one more starter to compliment Yovani Gallardo.
There is really only one team in baseball right now with a surplus of mostly proven, mostly healthy starting pitching and that team is the Braves (provided they bring back Huddie). The A’s and Braves match-up decently well in trade proposals…the Braves need right-handed hitting, cheap OFers and quality relief arms…my proposal for Hardy is as follows:
- A’s send Scott Hairston and Michael Wuertz to Braves
- Braves send Kenshin Kawakami to the Brewers
- A’s send Eric Patterson and Clayton Mortensen to Brewers
- Brewers send JJ Hardy to the A’s
The Braves get a cheap, righty-hitting outfielder under control for two years who can play all three outfield positions and is proven in the National League and an outstanding reliever who can probably close in the NL. The Brewers get a solid starter at a reasonable salary for the next two years who, although not pitching a ton of innings, proved that he can succeed in the National League, as well as a left-handed hitting super-sub that can cover centerfield or 2nd base (in place of the unreliable Rickie Weeks) and a young starter with a bit of upside (Mortensen) who can provide some depth for a thin rotation.
The A’s really only give up one player of immediate value (Wuertz) in this exchange, while shedding enough salary to take on Hardy without really risking all that much monetarily or in terms of prospects.
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
by Taj Adib on Oct 15, 2009 10:57 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Even if you look at that deal with Patterson and Mortensen as non-entities
That’s essentially Hairston/Weurtz to ATL for Kawakami, which is probably fair.
Then Kawakami + more spare parts to MIL for Hardy. I think that part of the trade is overpaying on Oakland’s part. As you described Kawakami, a solid starter at a reasonable salary for 2 more years is worth more than a questionable offensive SS who was demoted to AAA, is it not?
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 15, 2009 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good job, Taj
And for the record, when I said “Buck and H-Rod,” your 3-way deal is exactly what I meant.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Oct 15, 2009 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That depends.
I think the deal is an upside play for the A’s, whereas both the Braves and Brewers are acquiring more “sure things”. If you look at the proposed deal just in terms of the 2009 season, then it looks like the A’s would be overpaying a bit for Hardy…however, when you look at it in terms of Oakland assuming a little of the risk that Hardy can bounce back while giving up a proven hitter and reliever, the deal becomes a bit more equal.
As a rebuilding team depending heavily on a young, groundball-inducing pitching staff, it’s essential that the A’s put a strong infield defense on the field. Even if Hardy hits like he did in 2009 in 2010 and 2011, at age 28, his defense will likely continue to be strong. It’s true that yes, the A’s could get an all-glove, no-bat shortstop on the free agent market like John McDonald or Adam Everett without sacrificing any talent at all, however, none of those free agent options offer the upside of a hitter still in his prime who has a track record of hitting for high power and average.
Keep in mind, also, that hitting coach Jim Skaalen worked with Hardy for two very successful seasons in Milwaukee before coming to the A’s last year, so maybe the two can work together to fix whatever was ailing Hardy’s swing in 2009. Skaalen won’t be able to work magic, but keep in mind that Adam Kennedy gave him a lot of credit for his resurgence at the plate this season, as did Rajai, so there’s some evidence to suggest re-teaming Skaalen with Hardy could have a positive effect.
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
by Taj Adib on Oct 15, 2009 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's more than "a little" risk that Hardy bounces back, though.
Given all factors involved, I’d say Milwaukee is a better place than Oakland for a hitter to spend half of his games.
Aside from, like, Frank Thomas and John Jaha, I don’t think hitters come here and have a career resurgence.
Not that I wouldn’t want Hardy in Oakland, but I think he’s being overvalued here.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 15, 2009 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't, partly because
Hardy’s defense is solid and he solves SS for 2 years as “Pennington with pop,” even if his bat doesn’t come around. And he has spent 3x as long in the big leagues being a very good hitter as he has spent being a poor one.
Which brings me to the question: Why does PT dismiss Rajai Davis’ 2009 as a small sample fluke because the larger body of work is poor, but not assume Hardy will bounce back to 2007-08 form on the same basis?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Oct 15, 2009 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because MLB talent is not a bell curve
I’m inherently much less suspicious of someone playing unusually poorly than unusually well.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 15, 2009 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fairy nuff
Interestingly, studies have also shown that Buddy Bell’s talent is not an MLB curve.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Oct 16, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh.. I dunno, I guess that begs the question
How good is JJ Hardy really
If you take out his 2006 season in which he only played 35 games, he’s had 2 subpar offensive seasons (.309 wOBA in 05, .298 last year) and 2 pretty damn good ones (.338 and .355 in 07-08)
If you prefer OPS+, he’s gone 86, 100, 113, 74 (again, that’s skipping 2006 for injury).
He’s always been an above average defender (fangraphs says so), but dude’s offense has been all over the map in his career.
They call their best player "Kung Fu Panda" and they complain that people aren’t taking them or the game seriously enough? -Nick
by mikev on Oct 16, 2009 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, my reaction to that trade is
why not just trade for Kenshin Kawakami?
I’d much rather give up those two for him than four players for J.J. Hardy.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 15, 2009 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed again.
We have just as much need for a quality starter as a SS (or nearly as much), and Kawakami is a better bet than Hardy right now.
by Elston Gunn on Oct 15, 2009 6:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sick of Hardy
I really don’t understand the infatuation that fanbases of every franchise with ambiguous shortstop situations in MLB have with J.J. Hardy. I think he’s one of those people who are overrated because everybody thinks they are underrated.
If he can be had for one piece of dead weight like Hairston and a fringe pitching prospect, sure. But any deal for Hardy that includes a useful piece of any kind is non-starter in my book. Even if he regained his 2008 form, he would be only a marginal improvement over Pennington when you consider the fact that he would be switching to a tougher league and a more pitcher-friendly park. Reality is, Oakland is the last place where you can expect a struggling NL player to reinvent himself.
by Manstein on Oct 20, 2009 5:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only one problem
There is one more team who has an excess in pitching: Boston. And they have a need at SS and tons of money (i.e. they can buy back what they trade away). If Hardy is the only SS that hits the market, the A’s will have to compete with the Red Sox for him. Bidding wars are not a good idea.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on Oct 15, 2009 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
which Red Sox pitchers are you thinking specifically?
I don’t think they will want to give up Bowden. Matsuzaka would be an amusing idea, but I doubt the Brewers are interested in his contract. Is Tazawa enough? (probably with some other parts too)
by colin on Oct 15, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bidding wars can be a good idea,
if Billy succeeds in cranking up what Boston has to pay.
"Go ahead and overachieve, you scrappy Brett-Favre-colored walk-takers." —Rev Halofan
by iglew on Oct 15, 2009 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Problem with the Braves
Hudson has a mutual option and there’s a good chance he’d like to explore the FA market. At the very least he’s going to make Atlanta pony up to a new long term deal. If Wren is uncertain about retaining Hudson he might hold out for more before trading a SP, especially one under team control for multiple years.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Oct 15, 2009 8:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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