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Get Ready For The "Giambi Shift"

With the A's signing of Jason Giambi imminent, just like the signing of Furcal was...hey wait a minute...I guess nothing's been signed yet, huh? Well anyway, if the A's do sign Giambi, as currently rumored, let me offer a perspective on why it might work out better than his detractors fear.

While some are skeptical about Giambi's hitting skills going forward at age 38, I think all will agree that he represents an offensive upgrade that helps the middle of the order to become yet more legitimate. The big question is how much his defense at 1B, rated somewhere between average and gawdawful depending on your metric of choice, would offset the offensive gains.

I'm thinking that Mark Ellis may have been a factor in the A's apparent interest in signing Giambi to play 1B. Giambi's main issue at 1B is not "fielding ground balls" or "scooping errant throws." Along with a career-long weakness making the throw to 2B, the main reason Giambi hurts a team defensively is that he has the range of a sedated sea turtle who is trapped on land under Joe Blanton, only not quite as good.

Ellis, of course, has exceptional range. Imagine that in the 2009 defensive alignment Ellis is positioned another step or two to his left, essentially allowing him access to any ground ball that is more than a step to Giambi's right. This of course compromises Ellis' range to his right, but balls up the middle are a problem for Ellis anyway due to his limited throwing strength. Better to have your SS handle as many of those as possible.

Which is why the SS, Crosby or whomever, plays a step to his left, increasing his ability to get to balls up the middle and adequately covering for Ellis there. Chavez stays put, with his usual good range, to handle balls down the third base line, field left-side choppers, and cut off as many balls to his left as possible.

The end result? The biggest hole is between third and short, where Chavez is in a normal alignment but the SS is shaded to the second base bag. This is a problem, but many of the balls that now get through to LF are balls the SS would have backhanded deep in the hole - these are often infield hits, not outs, anyway, as they are the toughest plays of all to finish.

In other words, I think the A's feel that with a 2Bman who has great range and a left side of the infield that has above average range, the team can put on its own "Giambi shift" to turn their 1Bman into an adequate fielder. When should you curse Giambi's lack of range in this scenario? Ironically, only when a ball barely gets through the shortstop hole.

Meanwhile...

Buck - RF
Cust - DH
Holliday - LF
Giambi - 1B
Chavez - 3B
Suzuki - C
Sweeney - CF
Ellis - 2B
Crosby - SS

That lineup would score some runs, folks.

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+1

mikev next A’s GM I hope!

by calas on Jan 5, 2009 6:32 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hardly.

As much as I’d absolutely love to have a front office job, there’s no way I have the qualifications for it.

NOT THAT I’M DENYING JOB OFFERS, BASEBALL TEAMS WHO MIGHT BE READING THIS BLOG.

by mikev on Jan 5, 2009 7:04 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"Giambi's main issue at 1B is not fielding ground balls or scooping errant throws."

I think you need some clarifying parentheses there, Nico.

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 5, 2009 5:27 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I opted for our other friend: the quotation marks

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 5:58 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually Giambi is pretty good at

scooping errant balls. I live in NY and watched him a good bit on YES and thats the one thing hes good at, at 1B.

"With 16-year-old Dominican righty Michel Inoa in tow, Gio Gonzalez improving at Triple-A and lefty Brett Anderson carving up Double-Abatters along with Simmons and Trevor Cahill, Oakland’s pitching depthis officially the envy of baseball." - BaseballAmerica.com

by Syphon on Jan 5, 2009 6:46 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe it's unclear the way I wrote it, but

what I’m trying to say is that he scoops errant throws well.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 6:58 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My bad.

"With 16-year-old Dominican righty Michel Inoa in tow, Gio Gonzalez improving at Triple-A and lefty Brett Anderson carving up Double-Abatters along with Simmons and Trevor Cahill, Oakland’s pitching depthis officially the envy of baseball." - BaseballAmerica.com

by Syphon on Jan 5, 2009 8:54 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Double negative

Never fails to confuse.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 5, 2009 9:04 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

On the contrary, there's nothing confusing about it at all

“Double negative” = the ’09 WARP projections on offense and defense for Garret Anderson.

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 6, 2009 7:20 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As long as...

…the starters can do at least as good as last season, things are looking up.

How many games did we have where we scored 1 run or fewer?

Of course, if the pendulum swings and our new starter ERA balloons to 5.something…

Still, I feel hopeful.

by juanmiguel on Jan 5, 2009 5:28 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Unfortunately, 3/5 of those starters are in:

Philly, Chicago and Colorado

But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."

by saint on Jan 5, 2009 9:14 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yes, but

you could argue that smith will regress significantly, harden will get injured, and well joe blanton will be the same guy who era’d 4.96 last year (altho i think hes much better than that). but i am a little skeptical of our rotation as well. ben sheets please!

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Jan 5, 2009 9:18 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How good does Adrian Beltre look right now?

Nice LRLR in the heart of the lineup and ensuring that infield defense remains well above average.

www.punditpolitics.com - Political IQ Tests, Pundit Blog, News and Opinion.

by ChadGod on Jan 5, 2009 5:31 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

haha good point

www.punditpolitics.com - Political IQ Tests, Pundit Blog, News and Opinion.

by ChadGod on Jan 5, 2009 7:37 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Get him at midseason if Chavez falls apart again

He’ll probably be cheaper if the M’s obviously aren’t contenders.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 5, 2009 9:05 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Shift or shuffle?

I’d rather see the Giambi shift than watch him on the dance floor doing the Giambi shuffle.

by smellofgrass on Jan 5, 2009 5:32 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think Jason Giambi is gonna be just fine, folks.

His offensive production will outweigh his defensive deficiencies and the pitching should be alright, even better, if Beane signs another starter off the FA market.

By the way, anybody have a pulse on the health of Pedro Martinez? I have not heard anything about his health status at all and am interested to know where he stands. Any takers?

by mrod on Jan 5, 2009 5:38 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think Pedro's velocity is way down (85MPH-ish)

As incredible as he was for a long stretch, I think his time has come and gone.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 5:55 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I watched a lot Pedro last year

at least when he was healthy…and his velocity is down and and his control is off, leading to 100 pitches by inning number 5…he’s not worth it

"I was right and you were wrong." - Ray Fosse

by kbtoyz on Jan 5, 2009 8:12 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Split contract Mulder style.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 5, 2009 8:17 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You mean sign him for the first five innings?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 8:19 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's our new closer!

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 5, 2009 8:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I suppose we could sign Pedro and Mulder,

for $2mil, to be our #5 starter.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 8:30 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Peldero?

I see a deranged rabbit, on fire, cowering away from a vagina. I await the results of the Rorschaschererer. -Nico

by Leopold Bloom on Jan 5, 2009 11:41 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not sure why so many are sold on

Buck AND Sweeney as 2/3rds our OF. Neither is going hit more than 20HRS or drive in a 100 like A Dunn. Yes, they’re better defensively, but Philly had Burrell and Boston had Manny meaning since Holiday can play, we could (read: should) give up some defense for some offense in the outfield (ie. Dunn, Abreu)

Of course with Giambi now on board, I’d love to trade for Dye and have a Cust, Holiday, Giambi, Dye order that would rival just about any team west of the Mississippi.

"Baseball is like a church. Many attend, but few understand." - Wes Westrum

by oaklandfan40 on Jan 5, 2009 5:38 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's three to make two, with Cunningham

Sweeney becomes the automatic because he is slated to play CF.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 5:40 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Indeed

There needs to be more power in the outfield if we stand pat with the current infield. Without adding Giambi our infield would be lucky to have 50 HRs between the five starters.

by juanmiguel on Jan 5, 2009 5:41 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think you might have to add Orlando Cabrera to that lineup/infield.

Most of us, Beane included, are sick of Crosby at SS. The Dodgers were the only other team I have heard linked to Cabrera, and they now have Fuckall. Many teams have already filled their SS voids with cheaper, stopgap options. I don’t see much of a market at all for the guy and think Beane will end up signing him on the cheap. He will cost a draft pick which is the downside, but he’ll provide an upgrade both offensively and defensively over Crosby and I think he’s gonna end up with a 2/15 type deal. He may not hit for much power, but niether does Crosby and he’ll hit 40 points higher then Crosby on the BA side. Not an all-star, but a decent upgrade at a good price in this down market.

by JPShark on Jan 5, 2009 5:42 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No.

I am NOT a Crosby fan but I’d rather run him out there than Orlando bleeping Cabrera. Yes, I hate him THAT much.

If the A's can build around Holiday, Furcal, Cust, and maybe call up 2nd baseman Wes Childs at some point in the year, they have a shot to take a weak AL West. -- jameersju post on ESPN.com

by youdownwithOBP on Jan 5, 2009 10:49 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If you prefer Crosby to Cabrera you ARE a Crosby fan.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 5, 2009 11:07 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't know when it happened

Or how, exactly, but we did it again.

We started counting on Eric Chavez’s production. I wouldn’t pencil his name into any projected lineup without a /Hannahan or /Baisley next to it.

RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.

by walk off bunt on Jan 5, 2009 6:01 PM PST reply reply actions actions   1 recs

I don't put "Duke/Gio" but I know Duke likely won't make 32 starts

Thing is, Duke and Chavez do figure to be in the mix throughout April, and as the season progresses there are opportunities to make trades, pick-ups, call guys up, etc., so you can only project so far. Maybe Buck is dealt on May 15th in a deal that brings a 3Bman to Oakland – things happen. I’m only ready to handicap the first two months as best as I can.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 6:07 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh yeah

I don’t mean to single yours out. It’s all the rosters lately. And I mainly mean to comment more on the feeling I get that we, as a community, are falling for the same old Eric Chavez offseason song and dance again because if he was anything close to what he used to be it’d give the whole “compete in ’09” campaign a lot more credibility.

RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.

by walk off bunt on Jan 5, 2009 6:09 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

I've never heard Chavez as optimistic as this off-season

Usually he’s the Eeyore of pessimism and self-doubt; I do think that counts for something.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 6:17 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think he's optimistic

But I think we’re creeping toward that “well, maybe this year he’ll be healthy” mentality.

Not that there’s anything especially wrong with that. I just know he’s going to break my heart again. My poor, Eric Chavez-shattered heart.

RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.

by walk off bunt on Jan 5, 2009 6:28 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's been optimistic in the quotes I've heard

Saying he feels great, that he will definitely be ready Opening Day, that he hasn’t felt this good in years, etc. My concern is what will change when he puts “baseball wear and tear” on his back and shoulder, but you couldn’t hope for better so far I don’t think.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 6:35 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh whoops

I read your original post as “I haven’t heard Chavez as optimistic this off-season.” My bad.

Well, I hope he’s not just doing the whole “best shape of my life” routine so many do during the offseason/spring training.

RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.

by walk off bunt on Jan 5, 2009 6:58 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Of all people, he doesn't usually

Usually it’s more like, “I can’t do anything very well, and the Angels should win the division.”

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 6:59 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hmm

I too fear the wear and tear. But I think what he says is good enough for me to feel like he will make through spring training and the first ~month or so of the season before a “tear” occurs.

www.punditpolitics.com - Political IQ Tests, Pundit Blog, News and Opinion.

by ChadGod on Jan 5, 2009 7:38 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I may shed one myself

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 7:39 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I completely agree that Chavez

has traditionally been the opposite of overly optimistic.

That said, let’s weigh the improbabilities:

1. Something has changed in physical condition whereby he’s now healthy in spite of his lengthy record to the contrary.

2. Something has changed in his psychological condition whereby he’s now spouting optimistic phrases in spite of his lengthy record to the contrary.

I’d say the two are about equally improbable.

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Jan 5, 2009 8:04 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My feeling is that it took him years to have

the physical procedures he needed the whole time. First it was “No knives!!! I’ll play through it!!!” and then it was “We’ll cut into the shoulder but we won’t really fix it.” Then they FINALLY did what should have been done years ago.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 8:06 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And hadn't Bill also won a gold glove the previous year?

At age 77, of course.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 10:09 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Jan 6, 2009 11:06 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And best of all, the most serious surgery, the back,

has had an extra year to heal. I think it’s reasonable to think his back may be ok by now (if it ever will be), whereas last year that wasn’t likely to be the case.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 8:23 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

im ok with him as the eeyore of pessimism

as long as he doesnt play like pooh

holdin' it down for the bay from upper westside manhattan

by SamYam on Jan 5, 2009 6:33 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good point!

That I couldn’t bear.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 6:35 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

/pun

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Jan 6, 2009 11:06 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I very much agree with this sentiment

It’s like we have been sucked in, all over again, imagining a productive, healthy, third-base-playing Chavvy.

Stranger things have happened.

But the A’s cannot count on it happening.

by bear88 on Jan 5, 2009 11:22 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

meh......

I think you’re better off with Crosby playing his tail off in a contract year than signing Cabrera for 2 years and losing a draft pick.

If the A’s are gonna lose a draft pick it better be for Sheets, Lowe, or Manny Ramirez.

by mrod on Jan 5, 2009 6:02 PM PST reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Cabrera is definately worth a draft pick.

Saying that Cabrera is not worth losing a draft pick is like saying it’s a good idea to bat Jack Cust second in the batting order – neither is a very good idea.

by jdub69 on Jan 5, 2009 7:53 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why...

is batting Jack Cust second in the order a bad idea? He’s got a great OBP, mostly through walks.

by richwol1 on Jan 5, 2009 7:55 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

One can get too caught up in convention sometimes

Cust would be a very good #2 hitter, IMO, just not a “prototypical” one. You don’t play “Scioscia ball” at the top of the order with Cust as your #2 hitter, but you might score a whole lot more runs.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 8:05 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah...

… Jack Cust ain’t no muther-f’in #2-hitter.

I have a feeling Cust is going to regress significantly this year. There simply is not much precedent for a guy who strikes out in over 40% of his ABs having sustained success. When guys like Bob Hamelin, Marcus Thames, and Kevin Maas are among your closest comps (as per Baseball Reference), your career as a hitter does not have a high probability of lasting for a long time.

So, I think the most likely result of the Giambi signing (assuming it happens), is that Giambi moves to DH at some point during the season, Barton moves back to 1B, and Cust gets inserted into the lineup where the matchup is right. The guy’s cheap enough that we won’t feel compelled to play him if he’s struggling at that plate and we’re scoring runs…

As for what do we do next: Focus on the rotation. We have to shore up the rotation; and the offense is good enough to compete with Giambi (even with “the hole” at SS).

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 12:06 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There also isn't much precedent for a player who walks 20% of the time NOT having sustained success

Jack Cust is a unique player. Those guys may be his closest comps, but they’re still sucky ones.

There’s no reason to expect Cust to regress in 2009. His BABIP was actually lower than one would have predicted last season. He’ll be 30, so it’s not like he’s on his last legs age-wise. I suppose it’s possible, but a Ludwick-esque breakout season is also possible…

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 6, 2009 12:20 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think that should be "Ludwickian"

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 6, 2009 12:31 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ludwegian

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Jan 6, 2009 2:17 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I defer to this

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 6, 2009 2:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Every player is a unique player...

Every comp is a “sucky” comp. That’s why they’re called “comps” and not “identicals.” But they’re all we’ve got to work with…

If you want to predict a Ludwickian breakout season, that’s fine with me. I’m not saying it won’t happen. I’m just saying that when a player Ks over 40% of the time, pitchers (and pitching coaches) will find more and more weaknesses in his approach that they can exploit.

Jack Cust is an unusual player, yes. But, being unusual doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s destined for sustained success. The Bob Hamelin career path (success at age 28 and 29; out of baseball by age 31) is just as likely, if not more likely, than a Ryan Ludwick breakout.

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 1:33 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's really a false statement

Jack Cust is at the 99th percentile of major league players in several categories (walk rate, K rate, HR/FB rate). Most players are not. There are a lot more good comps to Jason Bay than to Jack Cust.

As for Hamelin, while you’re right that he was out of baseball by age 31, I cannot for the life of me figure out why, unless it was injury-related. Dumb behavior by MLB teams toward that kind of player is nothing new. Hell, it explains how Jack Cust was in the minors for ten seasons. Russell Branyan only got a minor league deal last season. Etc etc.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 6, 2009 1:48 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No, that doesn't explain why Cust was in the minors for 10 seasons

Cust spent a lot of time in the minors because he was slow to develop. Then just as he was looking like he finally got it together (corresponding with the first time the A’s took him), he got a bad injury that set him back about another year and a half.

He may have been a bit underrated at times, but it’s a gross exaggeration to attribute his entire time in the minors to GMs not recognizing his talent. He did get tried in the bigs, by a couple different teams, but at that time he was still AAAA level.

Some guys just take longer to reach their potential. Cust is one of them.

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Jan 6, 2009 2:29 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He wasn't slow to develop

Age 18: .935 OPS in rookie ball
Age 19: 1.020 OPS in mostly short-season A
Age 20: 1.101 OPS in A+
Age 21: .966 OPS in AA
Age 22: .939 OPS in AAA

Those are insane hitting numbers when you factor in ARL.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 6, 2009 2:38 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That is true...

I think Bob Hamelin was out of baseball at age 31 because his GM was trying to sell jeans instead of win baseball games. Like you say, unless it was injury-related, it’s tough to figure out what happened.

And, I agree that Jack Cust’s unusual BB-rate, K-rate, and HR-FB (33% in 2007, ridiculous) make him an unusual player who is hard to project… He doesn’t fit any particular career path. Maybe I’m just a pessimist.

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 2:33 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In addition...

… one of the main problems with Cust hitting #2 is that he clogs up the bases for the guys coming after him. Holliday won’t be able to take advantage of his speed with Jack Cust’s fat ass loafing around the bases in front of him.

My lineup… post Giambi, would be:
Sweeney – CF
Buck – RF
Holliday – LF
Giambi – 1B
Suzuki – C
Cust – DH
Chavez – 3B
Ellis – 2B
Crosby – SS

That is, until Cust gets exposed as Kevin Maas Part Duex, and Daric Barton re-asserts himself as the A’s 1B…

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 12:10 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

see below

for a massive conversation about cust batting #2. i have to ask tho, can you explain “clogging up the bases” to me? i really dont see how its possible

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Jan 6, 2009 12:23 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can...

… but do you really want me to? Seems fairly self-explanatory…

Say Cust leads off the inning with a walk. NONE OUT, CUST ON FIRST.
Holliday singles, Cust only moves to second. NONE OUT, CUST ON SECOND, HOLLIDAY ON FIRST.
Giambi singles, Cust only able to move to third. NONE OUT, CUST ON THIRD, HOLLIDAY ON SECOND, GIAMBI ON FIRST.
Chavez hits a fly ball, nobody can move because Cust too slow to score. ONE OUT, CUST ON THIRD, HOLLIDAY ON SECOND, GIAMBI ON FIRST.
Suzuki grounds out to pitcher, Cust out at home. TWO OUT, HOLLIDAY ON THIRD, GIAMBI ON SECOND, SUZUKI ON FIRST.
Buck flys out. END OF INNING.

I understand what you’re saying… having more guys (i.e., Jack Cust) on base can’t possibly hurt us. But, in my example, it did. If Cust hadn’t been in front of Holliday, Holliday might have moved to third on G’s single, and scored on Chavez’s sac fly. Instead, Cust CLOGGED UP THE BASES, meaning no one could move over on productive outs.

Teams don’t only score on walks, hits, and HRs. Teams that can use their outs to score, or to increase their probability of scoring, will score more runs… So there you have it. An example of base-clogging.

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 10:19 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You do realize that Cust isn't really an awful baserunner, right?

He’s just as likely to go first to third as basically anybody else, depending on where the ball is hit.

by mikev on Jan 6, 2009 11:03 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Really...

… Cust is just as likely to go first-to-third as Matt Holliday? I don’t think so.

Just for your reference, Baseball HQ, using the “speed score” metric, which was developed by Bill James, rates Jack Cust as having a SX of 19. Frank Thomas has a SX of 15. Bengie Molina has a SX of 14. League average is 100. So, if you think Jack Cust is flying around the bases just like everyone else, just think of Frank Thomas and Bengie Molina.

In case you were wondering, a player’s speed score is based on a number of different factors, including stolen base efficiency, stolen base frequency, triples, and runs scored as a percentage of times on base. It may not be a perfect measure, but at least it gives an idea of how effective a player is at moving himself around the bases. Put kindly, Jack Cust does not move around the bases as well as anyone else (unless you consider Frank Thomas a league-average baserunner).

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 11:46 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OK, so in certain absurdly unlikely scenarios, it's a factor

Who the hell cares?

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 6, 2009 12:23 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'll care that he was a big part of getting the A's to the playoffs

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 6, 2009 1:36 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Judas Priest

I’m not arguing that we should release Jack Cust here. I’m saying we shouldn’t hit him in the 2-hole. Try to stay on point.

I concede that Cust can be a valuable piece of a playoff roster. I just don’t think you want him running the bases in front of Matt Holliday.

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 1:38 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In your example, Cust is leading off the inning.

Are you saying he’s more likely to lead off an inning if he’s in the #2 spot, as opposed to, say, #5?

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Jan 6, 2009 2:35 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nope

I think I was just providing an example of “clogging up the bases.”

At this point, I’m not sure it’s really worth debating. The difference between (1) Jack Cust batting #2 and Eric Chavez hitting #5 and (2) Travis Buck hitting #2 and Jack Cust hitting #5 is fairly negligible, so go ahead and stick Jack Cust in the two-hole. I think he’s better suited to other positions in the lineup, but I don’t dispute that having a guy with a .380 OBP in the top two spots in the order would be a good thing…

Just don’t go complaining the first time Matt Holliday catches up to Jack Cust’s fat ass rounding third base.

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 2:45 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i just dont think cust is that slow

i mean sure he’s not gonna steal bases and hes not a speedster. but i think you’re over emphasizing his lack of speed. (problem here is, we don’t really know how fast he is). but i dont see any player (especially on the a’s) who will catch cust in a situation like that.

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Jan 6, 2009 3:00 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was exaggerating

No one will actually catch Cust on the bases, but players will get held up at 2nd if Cust can’t score from 3rd, and players will get held up at 1st if Cust can’t go from 1st-to-3rd on a gapper.

Cust will affect that players who run the bases behind him. Frank Thomas did it. Bengie Molina does it. Mark McGwire used to do it.

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 3:03 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i see

thats a good point, but i am once again leads me back to the “we dont know how fast he actaully is” point.

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Jan 6, 2009 3:05 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Does being condescending usually help you win arguments?

You must be in law school or a lawyer. How do I know? Because I, too, am a lawyer, and I’ve spent most of my professional career dealing with ridiculous statements like that…

Basic statistics are great over the course of a season, when the “law of averages” (a statistical term) balances things out. Over the course of a single game, statistics are much less relevant. Cust may hit a HR every five games, which over the course of a season means 30-32 HRs. But, in any three- or five-game stretch, it would not be all that surprising to see Cust hit zero HRs or three HRs.

In other words, when it comes down to a single game, you’ll care if Jack Cust is clogging up the bases, even if over the course of a season, it will tend to balance itself out.

Does my understanding of basic statistics meet your high standards, Mr. Thomas, Esq.?

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 1:53 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Your argument

is like saying that I would become afraid of lightning if my sister was killed by lightning, therefore I should be afraid of lightning now.

I don’t give a crap about lightning, and I don’t give a crap about base-clogging.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 6, 2009 1:58 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not sure I understand that one...

… but I’ll let it go.

I think the A’s are a better team with Cust in the 5-hole. You think they’re a better team with Cust in the 2-hole. It probably makes very little difference where he hits… We are both entitled to our own opinions of optimal lineup construction.

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 2:01 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Your argument is structured as follows

1. If Unlikely Event X happens in Key Situation Y, you will be very upset.
2. Therefore Unlikely Event X should be avoided at all costs.

In your argument, X is base-clogging and Y is the playoffs. In my argument, X is someone dying by lighting strike and Y is my sister being the someone who dies.

It’s a bad argument because it applies to everything. Any form of poor performance is regrettable in the playoffs.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 6, 2009 2:06 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My statement about the playoffs...

… was in response to your post about “so what if this happens in certain unlikely scenarios?” My response: “You’ll care if it happens in the playoffs.”

I wasn’t making a broad, sweeping statement. I was saying you’ll care if it happens in the playoffs. Seems pretty basic to me.

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 2:15 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Here's the part I'm missing in your argument.

You gave us an example of base-clogging. OK.

Now you say you like Cust better in the 5-hole than in the 2-hole.

How do you figure that your base-clogging scenario is less likely to happen with Cust at #5 than at #2? It seems to me that he’s very likely to lead off an inning at #5, whereas at #2 he’s more likely to bat with either already one out or a man on base.

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Jan 6, 2009 2:39 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Seems simple enough to test given the right database

Find out which positions in the lineup lead off an inning the most frequently. Unfortunately I can’t figure out how to do it with BB-Ref, but perhaps someone more versed in the site can do so.

I would be reasonably confident in saying that the #3 hitter will lead off the least frequently and the #2 hitter will be right behind him, and that there would be a substantial climb from those two to hitters #4-9. (Obviously the #1 hitter will lead off most frequently.)

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 6, 2009 2:46 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

See above...

… I “answered” your post about ten messages up.

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 2:46 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Getting back to the lightening...

… since I got nothing better to do…

Your argument seems to be that, because the chance of getting hit by lightening is 1-in-100,000 (I’m making that number up), you can walk out your door with impunity and expect that your odds of getting hit by lightening are always going to be 1-in-100,000.

My argument is that you should look up in the sky when you walk out your front door: if the sky is clear, your odds of getting hit by lightening are low; if the sky is dark, your odds might be slightly higher.

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 2:08 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No, you're misunderstanding me

My point is that the odds of getting hit by lightning as you step out of your house are effectively zero and should be treated as such regardless of whether your sister died of a lightning strike five years ago.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 6, 2009 2:12 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Lightening in the area

certainly would stop me from playing golf that day.

by LoneStranger on Jan 6, 2009 2:24 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OK

but analogizing “lightning in the area” back to the baseball situation, that’s like saying Cust is more likely to clog the bases when he’s already on second and Holliday is already on first. Yes, that is true, but it doesn’t tell you much.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 6, 2009 2:52 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I understand your argument...

… I think that over the course of a season, you are right that things will work out. I also think that, when you have specific circumstances presented right in front of you, the statistics will only tell you half of the information you need.

I agree with you, though, that season-long lineup positioning should not be based on what we may or may not see in the playoffs. My only point was that, come playoff time, you might want to re-construct your lineup so as to provide more flexibility…

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 2:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mr. T

I don’t mean to be a dick (or to suggest that you’re a dick), but when you get on a message board and suggest that someone else doesn’t have an “understanding of basic statistics,” you assume that you know more than you do and that everyone else you’re dealing with his a dumbass.

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 1:59 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Stop assuming what I'm assuming

I don’t know you from Adam, nor do I care.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 6, 2009 2:08 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Super...

… I’m not assuming what you’re assuming. You told me what you assume. No need for me to assume.

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 2:16 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I did?

That’s odd, cause I’m not finding it.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 6, 2009 3:06 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm going to assume that anyone with two strikes,

who refuses to tone it down and continues to upset people, probably isn’t long for this board. Which is a shame, but everyone plays by the same rules and makes choices every time they hit “post”.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 6, 2009 5:28 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ok well first of all

you completely nitpicked a situation here. but still, you’re wrong to some extent. first of all, cust is not that slow. especially when you consider the rest of the lineup doesn’t exacly possess blazing speed either, so hes not holding anyone back. on a most medium deep flyballs with cust on third, he will score. hes not that slow.

also, look at this run expectancy matrix. you will see that having cust on would be much more valuable than nobody on or if cust had gotten out, even if he does “clog up the bases”.

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Jan 6, 2009 1:06 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cust is SLOW

Please provide some sort of backup for your conclusory remark that “Cust is not that slow.” See my post above — Cust grades out as having similar basepath speed to Frank Thomas and Bengie Molina. Those dudes are slooooooooooow. So, point #1 in your post is simply incorrect.

As for point #2, I am familiar with the run expectancy matrix (REM). A few things on this. First, the REM is based on historical run-scoring records based on base-out situations (in other words, it does not account for the speed of runners on base, it is simply an after-the-fact compilation of average runs scored in each situation). Therefore, the REM needs to be adjusted slightly based on the specific circumstances of each given situation. Take the example of a runner on second and two out — REM says you score .33 runs in that situation; but, if you had Bengie Molina on 2nd, your run expectancy might decrease slightly, because he’s less likely to score on a single; on the other hand, if you have Jimmy Rollins on base, your run-expectancy might increase a little because Rollins might be able to score on an infield single. I don’t think you can debate that the REM is based on averages, and that adjustments might be appropriate based on the particular circumstances at hand.

Now, if you’re willing to admit that adjustments might be appropriate given the particular circumstances, then you have to be willing to admit that the A’s run-expectancy would be lower with Jack Cust on 2nd and two out than it would with, say, Travis Buck on 2nd and two out…

I’m not saying that we’re better off witgh Jack Cust getting out than being on base (I’d have to be retarded to think that). What I am saying is that your run-expectancy is lower when Cust is on base than it is when other, faster players are on base…

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 1:49 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cust beat out an infield single to win a game.

Clearly he’s a speedster. Even in the postgame interview he told the reporter that “He just let his speed take over”

by mikev on Jan 6, 2009 1:53 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Now that's funny...

Hell… Jake Taylor beat out a bunt to beat the Yankees in Major League. He, too, must be a speedster.

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 1:55 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ok you made some great points

i dont know how much i trust the speed thing with molina and thomas. i have no evidence, but ive watched them run. i just dont see them being that similar, and i think that is something that is hard to gauge without a stopwatch.

you’re right with point number 2. however, we dont have a jimmy rollins or anyone that’s a speedster really. buck is to an extent, and i like him as our leadoff hitter, but its unclear whether hell be able to maintain a high obp and a healthy body.

so heres my point: faster players are better on base. we dont have those players. i would much much much rather have holliday trying to drive in cust than noone at all (cust is more likely to get on for him), i think we need to put as many guys on base in front of holliday regardless of speed.

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Jan 6, 2009 2:05 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree with that...

… I’m not sure how much I trust the SX scores either, but it’s what I’ve got to work with.

I also agree that we don’t have any Jimmy Rollinses on our team, and that we have to get guys on base in front of Holliday if we want to maximize run-scoring (i.e., you don’t just put a guy like Joey Gathright, with his sub.-300 OBP, in front of Hollidayt because he’s fast).

But, if Travis Buck can put up a .350 OBP and Jack Cust puts up a .380 OBP (not unreasonable projections for either), you’re talking about 3 extra times on base per 20-25 games… not a lot. I’d rather have Travis’s speed on base in front of Holliday than Jack Cust’s slow ass in front of him. I may be dead wrong about this (I’m sure there’s some way to prove I am wrong), but it’s my personal preference.

Also… why not put Holliday at #2, Giambi at #3, and Cust at #4. If you want the high-OBP guys hitting early, why not put the fastest one first…

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 2:24 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

good points

i think holliday needs as many guys in front of him as possible. holliday is a faster high obp guy, but hes also a high average/power guy who will drive in runs. with custs lack of average, he wont drive in that many from the 4 or six spot.

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Jan 6, 2009 2:28 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

True

Holliday’s high AVG/OBP/SLG make him a better run-driver-inner than Cust’s high OBP/SLG.

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 2:33 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But you ARE saying that.
I’m not saying that we’re better off witgh Jack Cust getting out than being on base (I’d have to be retarded to think that).

But that’s exactly what your base-clogging example says. You presented a scenario in which we’d be better off had Cust struck out than had he walked.

If, at the start of an inning, you believe that scenario is likely to occur, then you should prefer Cust to get out rather than walk. If you don’t believe that scenario is likely to occur, then I don’t understand why you’re basing your lineup argument on something you acknowledge is less important than getting on base.

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Jan 6, 2009 2:46 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hmm...

I’m not really saying that — what I’m saying is that I don’t want Jack Cust batting in front of Holliday. I’d prefer someone who doesn’t negate Holliday’s speed on the bases by running at half-speed in front of him. So, I wasn’t saying that we would benefit more by Jack Cust striking out; I was saying we would benefit more by allowing someone else to hit in front of Holliday, who would not slow Holliday down as he makes his way around the bases.

That said, I think you have pointed out a huge gaping hole in my argument (namely, that Cust is just as likely to leadoff in the 5-hole as he is in the 2-hole), but allow me to respond with a question: If you had two players with eqaul OBPs, one of whom was slow and the other of whom was fast, wouldn’t you put the player with more speed in front of Holliday in order to take advantage of Holliday’s speed? And, if the answer to that question is yes, then doesn’t a player’s speed add some additional benefit that has to be factored into where you place him in the lineup?

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 2:56 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The best three hitters in the A's lineup are Holliday, Cust and Giambi

Those three need to fill the 1/2/4 slots in the optimal batting order. You probably want Holliday in the middle for L/R/L, but against lefthanded pitching I’d probably have Holliday lead off and slot Ellis in the #3 slot to break up the other two.

Here’s the thing— Holliday is faster than EVERY other A’s player. It’s inevitable that the guy in front of him will slow him down in a few cases if he’s on base. That’s vastly outweighed by the good things that happen when players are on base in front of Holliday, notably scoring on his home runs.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 6, 2009 3:17 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks for clarifying

So your real point is just that you don’t want Cust in front of Holliday, regardless of where they are in the order.

If two guys have equal OBP and one is faster, of course I prefer the faster one. I don’t think anyone here is arguing that speed doesn’t matter at all.

Don’t forget that Cust’s OBP includes his HRs, so if you’re figuring the chance of Cust being on base in front of someone, you have to subtract the HRs. In that sense, Cust unclogs the bases, by driving all the guys in front of him in.

(So if you have Frank Thomas or Bengie Molina on the team, put them in front of Cust.)

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Jan 6, 2009 3:17 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes

That is my real point. And, at this point, I’m not sure I even agree with myself.

My gut sense is that Cust will slow Holliday down (i.e., not allow Holliday to steal bases; not allow hit-and-run calls when Holliday is at the plate), but my gut sense isn’t worth a damn if it’s wrong. I don’t deny that Cust’s OBP (which should be around 370-390) is very valuable, and that it makes sense to have guys on base in front of your best run-producers… I just feel like Cust would be better utilized behind Holliday, and Buck and/or Sweeney would be better utilized in front of Holliday.

That said, I can see Paul T’s argument that you want your top three hitters hitting in the 1-4 spots (presumably to get them as many PAs as possible). If that means Cust in front of Holliday, then so be it…

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 3:36 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I hadn't considered Cust as a base unclogger

But, you’re right… Cust does occasionally unclog the basepaths.

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 3:37 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just a few simple reasons...

Cust batting second severely limits your options. You need a guy who can handle the bat better and make contact more often, have a higher batting average, and have more speed on the bases.

Cust strikes out too much. Has zero bat control. Can’t move a runner over if necessary. Can’t bunt, hit and run, or sacrifice. Plus he’ll clog up the bases because he can’t steal a base or move from first to third on a single. He’s a long shot to even make it home from second on a single. These are things tha your number 2 hitter should be able to do.

Sometimes a walk is not as good as a hit.

by jdub69 on Jan 5, 2009 8:09 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why do you need a guy who can do all those things rather than a guy who walks and HRs?

A walk is almost never as good as a hit. It is almost as good as a hit when Holliday’s the next hitter.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 5, 2009 8:11 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Holliday should NOT be hitting #3

He should be hitting #4. The best hitter should hit #4.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Jan 5, 2009 10:55 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Disagree

Best hitter should hit #3… if for no other reason than to get him more ABs.

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 12:12 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

By that logic the best hitter would be hitting #1.

by Rocktopus on Jan 6, 2009 2:58 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Best slugger at #3, best overall hitter at #1.

At least, that’s how I play it on my teams at simyard.com.

by LoneStranger on Jan 6, 2009 9:26 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Everything you say makes sense until you get to

“These are things tha your number 2 hitter should be able to do.” More than he should be able to not get out better than anyone else?

And as for “Sometimes a walk is not as good as a hit,” I agree. But a walk is as good as a hit when you’re batting #2 more often than it is when you’re batting #5 or #6.

Where I think you’re going astray is that you’re imagining that the leadoff hitter gets on a lot. He doesn’t. Even if he’s good, he still “doesn’t get on” about 65% of the time. Your #2 hitter will often be batting to start rallies, not continue them. And Cust is especially bad at finishing them, because for all his attributes he is a .240 hitter.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 8:15 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It boils down to speed and power.

I see him as a base clogger when he walks. Would rather see a high obp guy with less power and more speed at the top of the order and let the power guy (Cust) knock the speedy guys in.

by jdub69 on Jan 5, 2009 8:30 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not sure exactly what you mean

by “even close to Cust and Holliday” but as far as what I think a number 2 hitter should be able to do – I like Sweeney in that spot. I like Holliday and Cust knocking him in.

by jdub69 on Jan 5, 2009 8:33 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

can you explain to me what exactly a base clogger is?

i dont understand how you could possibly clog a base path.

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Jan 5, 2009 8:35 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

in all seriousness

it doesnt make any sense. what clogging up the basepaths means to me: a player is so slow that the doubles and triples hitters behind him (and basestealers as well) are being held up by his super slow speed. this does not happen (especially on the a’s). do you really think that cust getting on base would hurt the team because he is “clogging the bases”?

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Jan 5, 2009 8:41 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cust is not actually that slow

He’s not fast but he’s not slow. Giambi is slow, contintental drift slower, Frank Thomas even slower.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 8:43 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

helping my point even more

and i dont think cust is slow at all. but i just want to understand this notion of clogging the bases. maybe ive read fjm too much. but i just dont see anyway in which getting on base could be construed as bad.

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Jan 5, 2009 8:45 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no it doesn't

there is enough data out there to prove that. OBP trumps all. Moving the runner over, not being a base clogger (that is dusty baker talk, folks), and bat control are all overrate nonsense that we have been told since we first learned about baseball. They are up there with flat earth theories.

I would rather have the slowest man in baseball bat leadoff if his OBP was clearly the highest on the team than I would have a fast guy who made outs 69% of the time.

More Rajai Davis & less mount Davis

by Athletics fan and runner on Jan 5, 2009 9:01 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Runner on third, one out.

A guy who can at least get get the bat on the ball hits a an infield grounder to the right side – the runner on third scores most of the time. Cust doesn’t get the bat on the ball enough to get that guy home.

by jdub69 on Jan 5, 2009 9:05 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yes!

and how many times would a 2 hitter come up with a guy on third and noone out?

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Jan 5, 2009 9:07 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

right

hence batting him second were his walks will be as good as hits more often than not makes a lot of sense.
How often does the 2nd hitter come up with a runner on third and one out?

More Rajai Davis & less mount Davis

by Athletics fan and runner on Jan 5, 2009 9:07 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Somewhat ironic you'd pick this situation,

since a walk is pretty effective when there’s a runner at third and one out. Often the runner at third scores anyway on the next play, and the walk may as well have been with the bases empty.

The vast majority of “walks <<< hits” situations come with two outs, especially two outs and RISP. But of course, those situations aren’t good for your slap-hitting weaklings either.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 5, 2009 9:26 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

not necessarily

a walk takes away the hitters ability to drive in the run by hitting a gb to the right side. and in no way do i mean the walk is bad. im just nitpicking situations.

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Jan 5, 2009 9:29 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not if Giambi is playing 1B

Zing!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 9:30 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Two things:

a. They can always create that situation with an intentional walk anyway, if they’re dumb enough to do so, and

Many ground balls with one out score a run.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 5, 2009 9:32 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What's oddest of all is how the reason

starts with the digit “0”.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 9:34 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

like i said im nitpicking certain (and rare) situations

but a gb can result in a double play with a runner on first (and often does with the a’s). id like to add once again, that i am not an idiot and would abso-freaking-lutely take the walk.

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Jan 5, 2009 9:36 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Especially if Holliday were on deck,

and not your #7 hitter.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 9:39 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Those situations are actually pretty good

for Sweeney, I would think, which is why I kind of like him 6th/7th, at the end of the take and rake fest.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 9:29 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

You're off a bit there.

A walk with one out and a runner on third is not very effective, especially if it’s Cust who walked. Do you remember the billion times last year the A’s hit into a double play in that situation and the runner on third never scored? I sure do.

by jdub69 on Jan 5, 2009 9:31 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What if Cust walks to put runners at first and third

with one out and the batter is….MATT HOLLIDAY? See why you want Cust batting 2nd and not 5th or 6th?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 9:34 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

id say buck could a threat to triple

but he might hurt himself in the process

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Jan 5, 2009 9:45 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So your argument is based on inventing reality

to fit your preconceived notions. I guess that makes it really easy to convince yourself, but you’re not doing a good job of convincing me.

Turns out, the A’s as a team hit for an .882 OPS (and a batting average of .336) last year with a runner at third and less than two outs. BB-Ref doesn’t split that out to situations where there was also a runner on first, but it sure doesn’t fit your preconceived notion of a bunch of choke artists, now does it.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people say obviously, provably wrong things that can be exploded with five seconds of research on baseball-reference.com. It’s the consistency of it that gets me. You’d figure someone, at some point, would just get lucky and happen to hit a split stat that randomly favors their argument— but it hasn’t happened yet, that I can remember.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 5, 2009 9:45 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My argument is based on simple baseball reason.

Cust’s skills are better used in a power spot of 5 or 6. It’s too limiting to have him at number 2. I don’t think there is a manager in the league that would bat him second. We’ll see what happens. Maybe he bats second and excels – I wouldn’t be disappointed.

by jdub69 on Jan 5, 2009 9:51 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The fact that no MLB manager is willing to do something

is an excellent argument for doing that very same something.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 5, 2009 9:54 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

i could be wrong here

but i thought manny acta knew what he was doing. 1/30 aint bad, right?

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Jan 5, 2009 9:57 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don't insult people

Make an argument that doesn’t just repeat “30 HR guys should bat 5th, not 2nd” because that’s already been refuted with specific reasons why that needn’t apply to Cust’s profile.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 9:59 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually you can't

Two wrongs maketh not a right. Blog at your own risk – and please, always wear a condom while blogging.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 10:04 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

what if it breaks the other one?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 10:06 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wrap my rascal two times.

Because I like it to be joyless and without sensation, as a way of punishing supermodels.

99 MPH with as much control as a deflating balloon - CurveballKing on H-Rod

by Scottbass on Jan 6, 2009 12:06 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

they were so smart that a guy named bill james who was never a "baseball man"

proved all of them wrong and changed the game

"It's like déjà vu all over again." -yogi berra

by Cheezombie on Jan 5, 2009 9:59 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, but he was a Communist.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 5, 2009 11:39 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh, please.

Half of AN would make better tactical decisions than most MLB managers.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 5, 2009 11:38 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

jdub69, your argument is in the face of

baseball reason, because you’re ignoring all the reason being offered. Address those if you want to appeal to baseball reason. 30+ HRs = “should bat 5th” isn’t reason.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 9:55 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not ignoring them. I've considered them.

I disagree with where Cust is better used. After all is said and done it boggles this persons mind to think anyone would bat Cust second.

by jdub69 on Jan 5, 2009 9:59 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just FYI, Dwayne Murphy's lifetime stats

were .246/.356.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 10:03 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Those two weren't that comparable

Sandberg didn’t walk that much and Mattingly hit for a high average.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 10:07 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I could see him batting 2nd, 5th or 6th

I would puke if he bats 3rd or 4th short of half the team being injured.

One thing most can agree with is the guy is not a 3 or 4 hitter.

by Trainman on Jan 5, 2009 10:05 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sample bias:

You only check BR when someone says something that seems wrong. People do sometimes accidentally make up a stat that is accurate, but in those cases it seems right to you so you aren’t inspired to check it on BR to confirm.

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Jan 6, 2009 12:42 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think so

I know what you’re talking about, but this usually comes up when we’re talking about random split stats which could, for all I know, bear no relationship whatsoever to a team’s overall hitting line. Like hitting with a runner on third and less than 2 outs. For all I knew when I looked it up, the A’s actually COULD have sucked in that situation.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 6, 2009 12:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Really?

Frank Thomas as a leadoff hitter? Good idea.

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 12:14 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well then...

… guess it’s not worth discussing since you are convinced that your theories are the truth. Funny that someone who so readily disposes of other theories (e.g., that bat control and moving runners over are important) would cling so tightly to his lab-tested data showing that OBP trumps all.

Look, I agree with you that OBP is the leading indicator of run-scoring ability. Now, I think you need to consider that OBP being the lead-indicator does not mean that teams should just stack their lineups from high-OBP to low-OBP. Lineup construction, while not as important as the underlying skills of the players in the lineup, does impact a team’s run-scoring ability.

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 11:54 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ahh...

… nice qualifier. “Mostly” irrelevant.

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 11:57 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

oh, it has some effect ... at the margins

Best thing to do is … get a bunch of good hitters. And put the least-good ones in the 6-9 slots.

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 6, 2009 12:00 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agree with that...

… best thing to do, if you want to score runs, is get good hitters. High OBP guys are preferable. High SLG guys are second-most preferable.

Even the best lineup construction in the world can’t make up for a lack of OBP and SLG.

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 6, 2009 12:11 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

COMITY!

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 6, 2009 12:31 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You got a point there.

I wouldn’t want to see Thomas or Giambi in the 2 spot either.

by jdub69 on Jan 5, 2009 8:45 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and youve got a point with cust in the 5 spot

but i think that we need as many guys on base for holliday. no matter where on base or how fast. he is the most productive hitter and will drive in runs if given the opportunity

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Jan 5, 2009 8:47 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He HRed 33 times and walked 111 times

In other words, he HRs once every five games and walks twice every three games.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 8:46 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No, that's a FACE clogger.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 6, 2009 12:29 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

TWSS

I'll send you a postcard from Space Mountain. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 6, 2009 12:31 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well jdub69, just keep in mind that in the 567 plate appearances or so

where Cust doesn’t HR, he hits .174.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 8:34 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So not exactly a good bet to "knock the speedy guys in."

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 8:35 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Only if he's batting ahead of good hitters,

not if he’s at the end of the string of good hitters. Your own hope about the possible benefit of “protection” argues for hitting Cust 2nd, not 5th or 6th.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 8:42 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Unlike Holliday and Giambi

Good point. UNICORN POWER!!!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 8:44 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh well then, ok

Not a basis for a lineup decision, but a perfectly reasonable thing to feel.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 8:48 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Call me conventional but I think it'd be best for the team.

I’d be shocked to see Geren bat Cust second even once during the season but I’ve seen crazier things.

by jdub69 on Jan 5, 2009 8:51 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You mean like Dwayne Murphy, Ryne Sandberg, and

Don Mattingly batting second?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 5, 2009 8:57 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah, and hit doubles and homers.

The guy who can’t hit the homers is best used in the 2 spot.

by jdub69 on Jan 5, 2009 9:07 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yes, but his obp trumps his power by a long shot

111 walks compared to 33 hrs. the fact that cust has so many strikeouts and has such a low average makes him terrible in the number 3-5 spot. hes not likely to drive in runs because his low average. the fact that he only had 77 rbi’s last year with 33 hr isnt just indicative of a lineup that failed to get on base, but also the lack of base hits provided by cust.

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Jan 5, 2009 9:12 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Take a deep breath...

Put your emotions aside and think critically here. Now ask yourself – would Cust be better used in the two spot as a run scorer or in the five or six spot as an RBI guy? Common sense says RBI guy every time.

by jdub69 on Jan 5, 2009 9:18 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and thats why man invented math and science

to trump what might seem like common sense

"It's like déjà vu all over again." -yogi berra

by Cheezombie on Jan 5, 2009 9:21 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

im plenty calm

i apologize if my responses seem angry or anything bad. they arent meant to be. i simply disagree with your point.

common sense tells me that cust is not an RBI guy. cust batted in the rbi spot lats year because, well if not him, then DFA would be there or someone terrible.

here’s my point: obviously, you knock guys in by getting hits. cust does not do this well. he does hit home runs, which makes him appealing for the rbi spot (i agree with you there), but his average and hits are so rare he is not going to get rbi’s other than from hr.

his obp is very very valuable and would provide holliday/others the chance to knock him in. in the number 2 spot in the order, his inability to make contact/get base hits will be nullified by his obp, wheras cust in the 5 of 6 spot would hurt the team because of this.

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Jan 5, 2009 9:23 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fair enough.

We’ll agree to disagree. Go A’s!

by jdub69 on Jan 5, 2009 9:25 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OK, let me put my emotions aside

and think critically…

Definitely better #2 than #5 or #6.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 9:23 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Belches

’Scuse me.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 9:30 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

to score runs

one has to get on base.
Cust does that very well.
It does not matter if one walks, gets a hit, or sticks his elbow into a pitch in order to get on base. You want your best guys at getting on base infront of your best hitters. Cust, at number 2, in front of Holliday, does this.

All of your arguments rely upon unquestionably referring to conventional wisdom. Read some bill james, work your way up to baseball prospectus, visit www.fangraphs.com, and throw away ‘base clogging’ from your lexicon. That would help you out.

More Rajai Davis & less mount Davis

by Athletics fan and runner on Jan 5, 2009 10:12 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well

I thought that you were saying that I am deep. And that I have thoughts.

and stuff.

More Rajai Davis & less mount Davis

by Athletics fan and runner on Jan 5, 2009 10:24 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well

I would like to take some advantage of his home run power and bat him 2nd with somebody in front of him.
Then again, I would rather he bat leadoff than I would he bat 6th were he might walk to bring up crosby.

Brian Downing. Not quiet like Cust but close enough for this argument. He lead off without having traditional leadoff hitter skills. Basically, he was good (not as good as cust is, mind you) at getting on base. That is the most important thing for a “run scorer”.

More Rajai Davis & less mount Davis

by Athletics fan and runner on Jan 5, 2009 10:23 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well,

try to think of him as a guy who is really good at getting on base and hits a lot of homers. That is what he is. The run scorer and RBI guy titles just confuse things.

More Rajai Davis & less mount Davis

by Athletics fan and runner on Jan 5, 2009 10:37 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i think what you have to consider is

this is not a lineup/team/organization that is looking for the prototypical number 2 hitter to do the little things with the bat (bunt, move the runners over). all that matters is the number 2 guy gets on base so guys like holliday can drive them in. getting the bat on the ball is nice, but gettting on base nearly 40% of the time is much much nicer.

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Jan 5, 2009 9:02 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Joe?

"It's like déjà vu all over again." -yogi berra

by Cheezombie on Jan 5, 2009 8:26 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

batting jack cust 2nd is an excellent idea

"It's like déjà vu all over again." -yogi berra

by Cheezombie on Jan 5, 2009 8:23 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like it, I like it.

Although I do see a little room for improvement ~ and we all now what position that would be.

20 wins in a row! Will it ever happen again?

by Johnny U on Jan 5, 2009 6:38 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Doggy style!!!!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 6:38 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hahaha.

If it’s Furcal diving to his right, more like missionary.

20 wins in a row! Will it ever happen again?

by Johnny U on Jan 5, 2009 6:46 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If Furcal takes my advice,

he won’t need another person in order to enjoy either position.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 7:00 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I smiled at that

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Jan 5, 2009 7:43 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks for my new signature Nico.

It humors me.

[The reason] Giambi hurts a team defensively is that he has the range of a sedated sea turtle who is trapped on land under Joe Blanton, only not quite as good. -Nico

by Morgasm on Jan 5, 2009 6:47 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I loved it too!

I laughed out loud.

39 remarkable innings.

by ZigFan31 on Jan 5, 2009 10:18 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

cool. just tuned into Rancho Deluxe

classic cult movie whilst dialing up AN to read the Giambi thread. “Baseheart of Bozeman Canyon” speaks to me of Giambi in his prime….which is not now.

alaska A residing in colorado.

by ak_A on Jan 5, 2009 7:01 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rather than doing all that, I'd rather just leave people where they are and live with

Giambi’s smaller range

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 5, 2009 7:07 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why? Why give up balls hit 2-3 steps to the right of the 1Bman

if you don’t have to? Better to keep Ellis fielding balls to his left and SS taking the balls up the middle anyway.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 7:10 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Because if they fielders are optimally positioned wrt scouting reports then having a crappy defender

at 1B doesn’t change the equation in most cases. Even if the hitter frequently hits the ball toward the 2B/1B hole, then you move Ellis there even with a good defender at 1B.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 5, 2009 8:13 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

line-up

I’d rather have sweeney and suzuki getting more at bats at the top rather than buck, who is more mentally fragile. Do you think we need Buck’s speed up top, Nico? A prototypical second place hitter makes a whole lot more contact than cust does…

Who writes the line-up, Beane or Geren?

by greenpaddedgloves on Jan 5, 2009 7:21 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like Buck leading off because he does draw walks

and he adds a true base-stealing and “speed on the bases” element. If he isn’t giving you a .350+ OBP he should probably be in Sacramento and you can lead off with Sweeney or Cunningham.

I want Cust batting ahead of the RBI guys, so if he didn’t bat 2nd I’d bat him 3rd (after, say, Buck and Sweeney). But I’d sooner see Sweeney and Suzuki, with their good BA and “ok” OBP, in more RBI situations and see Cust, with his great OBP, batting ahead of Holliday, Giambi, and Chavez.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 5, 2009 7:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I really like Cust hitting 2nd

www.punditpolitics.com - Political IQ Tests, Pundit Blog, News and Opinion.

by ChadGod on Jan 5, 2009 7:41 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs