The bottom of the shortstop barrel
by EddieVegas_NRAF on Jan 14, 2009 6:21 PM PST
48 comments
The pros and cons of signing Orlando Cabrera have been debated thoroughly enough here, and it seems to me that the price is too high for TPTB to sign off on. It's still difficult to imagine that Crosby would remain with the club for much longer, seeing as they have already offered him for nothing in return. Yet, there seems to be no indication that the A's see Petit as even a short-term solution.
So, if the A's can't live with Cabrera, Crosby or Petit, what should they do?
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I will not longer waste my time arguing for O Cab
but he is NOT too expensive, IMO. And Alex Cora just signed today, so he’s off the market. I think for us, it’s either O Cab, trade, or Crosby. No one else. At all.
"I'm on hold for now"- Bobby Crosby
by DyeLongJustice on Jan 14, 2009 6:43 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't trade Cahill or Anderson for any of the SS prospects out there.
But I would want to make a trade. Buck for DeJesus still makes sense to me. Cabrera as a one-year stopgap works here too.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 14, 2009 6:48 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Where does Buck fit in for LA?
Don’t they have a logjam of their own in the outfield, even without AJ?
by CapgrasDelusion on Jan 14, 2009 7:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Only if they re-sign Manny. Otherwise he fits in next to Kemp and Ethier.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 14, 2009 8:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Cabrera the stopgap
He still costs a draft pick to sign, although I guess the A’s would get one back in 2010 if they kept him all season. But I thought the draft pick was one of the reasons the A’s were cool on him.
by EddieVegas_NRAF on Jan 14, 2009 8:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
+1 on the Cahill/Anderson part...
…if they’re sooooo good and promising, then I’d keep them. Not saying they should be “hands off”, but the deal would have to be overwhelming and for a proven SS in his prime… which ain’t gonna happen.
"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds
by UncleLeo on Jan 14, 2009 10:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You left out my favorite "outside-the-box
bizarro fantasy" solution: Sign Orlando Hudson and stick him at SS!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jan 14, 2009 7:18 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Do you want somenthing outside the Box?
Trade for Kaz Matsui and let him play SS…
by Olijerez77 on Jan 14, 2009 7:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You know....
this may not be such a horrible idea. Let’s say Hudson is 25 runs better than Crosby with the bat (actually pretty conservative), what’s the over/under on how many he gives back with the glove??
by CapgrasDelusion on Jan 14, 2009 7:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He certainly knows how to play defense
The fact that it’s not a position he, y’know, actually plays could be an issue, but…hey, what the heck, right?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jan 14, 2009 8:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
As for the position – a minor issue. And, the fact that our alternative is someone who, y’know, doesn’t actually know how to hit kinda makes your idea, although a bit far-fetched at first glance, pretty intriguing.
by CapgrasDelusion on Jan 14, 2009 9:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's one of my better ideas
that I’ve put out there not really being serious when I first said it. At the right price – and 3/24 qualifies in my mind – I’d go for it.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jan 14, 2009 9:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
re
Damn, I need to read through these threads more carefully before posting. I was patting myself on the back thinking I had a clever idea. Nice work Nico.
I’d definitely prefer Hudson to Cabrera, I know that.
by AgitationStation on Jan 14, 2009 9:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It's not ridiculous at all, and probably worth investigating.
Cabrera: -13 Offense +1 Defense = -12
Crosby: -19 Offense +3 Defense = -16
Hudson: -3 Offense means he’d have to be -9 on defense to be the same as Cabrera.
Fan Scouting Report gave him an Overall Rating of 77 with Arm Strength of 55 in 2008.
2007 — Overall 79, Arm Strength 61
2006 — Overall 74, Arm Strength 61
Other Notables:
Stephen Drew: Overall 62, Arm Strength 59; CHONE -9
Orlando Cabrera: Overall 66, Arm Strength 49
Bobby Crosby: Overall 56, Arm Strength 68
Mark Ellis: Overall 82, Arm Strength 55
Marco Scutaro: Overall 52, Arm Strength 46; CHONE +1
He’d have a weak arm for a SS, but maybe not so bad that his bat wouldn’t make up for it. I’m not sure I’d want him in front of a young groundballing staff at SS though.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 14, 2009 9:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The way I think about it,
if a guy has a weak arm for SS he can get away with that SO much better if the player is an accomplished defensive player in general – good jumps, good footwork, a good feel for fielding and throwing efficiently, etc. Hudson has all that so I assume he’d be as good a SS as you could hope for given his limitations – which would still be there, of course.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jan 14, 2009 9:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Because he plays it great, instead of playing SS average
Either that or because he’d play SS badly, I don’t know.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jan 15, 2009 7:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
stephen drew
"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"
by travdog6 on Jan 15, 2009 5:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Who is not a good defender. When Hudson came up with Toronto in 2002 their SS was
Chris Woodward, also a mediocre defender. I’m wondering why he keeps playing 2B with crappy defensive SS around.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 15, 2009 5:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Where did you get -3 for offense?
He’s been about 10 runs above average the past few years. Even the bearish CHONE projects him as above average next season, with a .337 wOBA.
by CapgrasDelusion on Jan 14, 2009 9:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I see where you got it now....
I guess CHONE’s league-average projection is a bit high. I believe it was .335 for the AL this past season.
by CapgrasDelusion on Jan 14, 2009 9:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not vouching for CHONE's projections BTW. I keep quoting them since they're easy
to interpret. ZiPS doesn’t give +/- offense #s and PECOTA isn’t out yet.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 14, 2009 9:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
My non-scientific figuring is that Hudson
would be way better than Crosby – a “good offensive SS” instead of a “putrid one” – and that defensively he would be average: great turning the DP, good instincts and fundamentals, mediocre range, and a poor arm.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jan 14, 2009 9:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmmm.....here are some of his most similar fielders by Fan Scouting Report
Hudson — Overall 79, Arm Strength 55
Maicer Izturis — Overall 70, Arm Strength 54, CHONE at SS +2, Career UZR at SS +7
Alfredo Amezaga — Overall 73, Arm 49, CHONE +5, UZR +10
Hu Chin-lung — Overall 72, Arm 63, CHONE +7, UZR +4
Orlando Cabrera — Overall 67, Arm 49, CHONE +1, UZR +7
Here are some SS who probably shouldn’t be SS much longer:
Michael Young — Overall 48, Arm 65, CHONE 9, UZR -6* Overall 53, Arm 64, CHONE
Derek Jeter -13, UZR -6 Overall 40, Arm 65, CHONE -8, UZR -8
Jhonny Peralta -
- 2006-2008 only
It looks to me that if Hudson is healthy, he’s got a good chance at being above average at SS. I retract my statement about the young groundballing staff. Sign that man!
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 14, 2009 10:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you may be comparing Hudson to other 2B in that +10. CHONE compares to
all hitters. I believe he doesn’t count pitchers but I’m not sure.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 14, 2009 9:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn't the standard for offense only be lower for a SS?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jan 14, 2009 9:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also catcher. And much higher at 1B, corner OF and DH
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 14, 2009 10:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No, I was comparing against league average across all positions
The discrepancy is coming from CHONE’s projection, which is just .337 for 2009.
My +10 figure was using the past couple of seasons in which he posted a .361 and .358, respectively. Regardless, I think we can agree he would be a substantial upgrade with the bat.
by CapgrasDelusion on Jan 14, 2009 10:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah I see. You're using wOBA. So CHONE might be conservative on his hitting
projection.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 14, 2009 10:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Garciaparra doesn't exactly strike me as a shortstop anymore.
by R.J. Anderson on Jan 14, 2009 7:42 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Neither does Bobby Crosby
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jan 14, 2009 7:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn't help that you're low and outside.
by oblique on Jan 14, 2009 8:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's low.
And outside.
au contra ire
by JediLeroy on Jan 14, 2009 11:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
eh who needs a shortstop anyway?
seriously, just sign another LF and play him in shallow left field. Sure, all balls hit between 2b and 3b will be hits, but at least they’d be singles. And heck, who knows, if Prince Fielder, Bengie Molina, or David wells comes to bat, we might even have a shot at getting them out!
"I'm on hold for now"- Bobby Crosby
by DyeLongJustice on Jan 14, 2009 8:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
re
I’m sure it’s too risky for the A’s to consider, but Orlando Hudson actually has arm enough to play SS. His defense didn’t show well last year, across metrics, but he may have just had an off year (there’s the big risk). With his bat, he’d be an upgrade over Crosby even if the defense was a little below average. Looking at what’s out there, I don’t think he could get more than something like 3/$24m from anyone (and he may not approach that), and on a deal like that, if it did turn out he couldn’t handle SS, he’d most likely be dealable in the future. We are talking about less than optimal options.
On the list, I prefer Tejada, as unlikely as it seems. Ed Wade was even quoted today as saying the Astros are $8 or $9m above where they ought to be. Crosby plus one of the minor league middle relievers ought to get it done.
by AgitationStation on Jan 14, 2009 8:48 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
If this is all it takes they really should do it
I mean Tejada is close to being done as a player but his last year was still way out of wack of his others on offense and he’s probably about equal to cabrera really, and this way it’s only a 1 year contract and it doesn’t cost a pick.
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by iamawesomer on Jan 14, 2009 10:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
thats very interesting...
If he actually said $8 or $9 million above, that almost seems like he is priming the media to be receptive to a Tejada trade.
www.punditpolitics.com - Political IQ Tests, Pundit Blog, News and Opinion.
by ChadGod on Jan 14, 2009 10:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Oops
Got it a little bit wrong. Here’s what he exactly said:
“We’d have to sit down and have a discussion,” Wade said. “Where we are right now, our payroll is $107 million. Last year, we finished around $98 million. We’re really up against our number at 107, and it’s a number, quite frankly, that the revenues don’t support.”
Pretty close to what I remembered, but not exactly. Wade also said the Astros 99% sure they’re going to go with what they currently have, but that was in reference to not adding any more players. It’s not a secret out in Houston that the Astros would love to dump Tejada’s contract though. Does depend a bit on which way the media is blowing out there. I’ve never seen an owner influenced by the press the way Drayton McClane is (and they still rip him constantly, which is the funny part.)
by AgitationStation on Jan 14, 2009 11:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well then, that settles it:
If Billy Beane is getting the band back together, then Miggy needs to come back and be the drummer!
by mrod on Jan 15, 2009 12:13 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
The horrible irony
Is that the one option truly outside the box and intriguing at SS, moving Mark Ellis over, probably doesnt have the arm strength due to…Bobby Crosby. Still, he could toss it over to Chavez who could get it to first, or walk it over to second and throw it, and he still would probably be better than Crosby.
by mikedaviswhereareyou on Jan 15, 2009 1:01 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Yes Crosby's had an impact beyond his mere statistics.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 15, 2009 1:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We can scratch Eckstein off the list too
by EddieVegas_NRAF on Jan 15, 2009 5:36 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I'd already scratched him off long ago.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 15, 2009 5:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Eckstein is so pesky that I keep scratching, and keep scratching,
but I can’t get rid of him.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jan 15, 2009 7:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
True fact: In a global thermonuclear war, the only human who would survive would be David Eckstein
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jan 16, 2009 3:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
and now i have a new sigline
"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"
by travdog6 on Jan 16, 2009 3:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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