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The bottom of the shortstop barrel

 

 

Star-divide

The pros and cons of signing Orlando Cabrera have been debated thoroughly enough here, and it seems to me that the price is too high for TPTB to sign off on. It's still difficult to imagine that Crosby would remain with the club for much longer, seeing as they have already offered him for nothing in return. Yet, there seems to be no indication that the A's see Petit as even a short-term solution.

So, if the A's can't live with Cabrera, Crosby or Petit, what should they do?

Poll
If Crosby, Cabrera and Petit are not options, the A's should sign:
Alex Cintron
2 votes
Alex Cora
1 votes
David Eckstein
13 votes
Nomar Garciaparra
16 votes
Omar Vizquel
6 votes
Trade Anderson/Cahill, get highly-regarded SS prospect, pray
7 votes
Bring back Miggy - whatever it takes
51 votes
Let the Cliff Pennington Era begin
59 votes
Us? Die.
10 votes
I've got it! I've got it! I'll explain below.
4 votes

169 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 48 comments

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I will not longer waste my time arguing for O Cab

but he is NOT too expensive, IMO. And Alex Cora just signed today, so he’s off the market. I think for us, it’s either O Cab, trade, or Crosby. No one else. At all.

"I'm on hold for now"- Bobby Crosby

by DyeLongJustice on Jan 14, 2009 6:43 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't trade Cahill or Anderson for any of the SS prospects out there.

But I would want to make a trade. Buck for DeJesus still makes sense to me. Cabrera as a one-year stopgap works here too.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 14, 2009 6:48 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Where does Buck fit in for LA?

Don’t they have a logjam of their own in the outfield, even without AJ?

by CapgrasDelusion on Jan 14, 2009 7:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Only if they re-sign Manny. Otherwise he fits in next to Kemp and Ethier.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 14, 2009 8:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Cabrera the stopgap

He still costs a draft pick to sign, although I guess the A’s would get one back in 2010 if they kept him all season. But I thought the draft pick was one of the reasons the A’s were cool on him.

by EddieVegas_NRAF on Jan 14, 2009 8:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

+1 on the Cahill/Anderson part...

…if they’re sooooo good and promising, then I’d keep them. Not saying they should be “hands off”, but the deal would have to be overwhelming and for a proven SS in his prime… which ain’t gonna happen.

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Jan 14, 2009 10:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You left out my favorite "outside-the-box

bizarro fantasy" solution: Sign Orlando Hudson and stick him at SS!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 14, 2009 7:18 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Do you want somenthing outside the Box?

Trade for Kaz Matsui and let him play SS…

by Olijerez77 on Jan 14, 2009 7:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You know....

this may not be such a horrible idea. Let’s say Hudson is 25 runs better than Crosby with the bat (actually pretty conservative), what’s the over/under on how many he gives back with the glove??

by CapgrasDelusion on Jan 14, 2009 7:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He certainly knows how to play defense

The fact that it’s not a position he, y’know, actually plays could be an issue, but…hey, what the heck, right?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 14, 2009 8:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yup

As for the position – a minor issue. And, the fact that our alternative is someone who, y’know, doesn’t actually know how to hit kinda makes your idea, although a bit far-fetched at first glance, pretty intriguing.

by CapgrasDelusion on Jan 14, 2009 9:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's one of my better ideas

that I’ve put out there not really being serious when I first said it. At the right price – and 3/24 qualifies in my mind – I’d go for it.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 14, 2009 9:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

re

Damn, I need to read through these threads more carefully before posting. I was patting myself on the back thinking I had a clever idea. Nice work Nico.

I’d definitely prefer Hudson to Cabrera, I know that.

by AgitationStation on Jan 14, 2009 9:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's not ridiculous at all, and probably worth investigating.

CHONE:

Cabrera: -13 Offense +1 Defense = -12
Crosby: -19 Offense +3 Defense = -16

Hudson: -3 Offense means he’d have to be -9 on defense to be the same as Cabrera.

Fan Scouting Report gave him an Overall Rating of 77 with Arm Strength of 55 in 2008.
2007 — Overall 79, Arm Strength 61
2006 — Overall 74, Arm Strength 61

Other Notables:

Stephen Drew: Overall 62, Arm Strength 59; CHONE -9
Orlando Cabrera: Overall 66, Arm Strength 49
Bobby Crosby: Overall 56, Arm Strength 68
Mark Ellis: Overall 82, Arm Strength 55
Marco Scutaro: Overall 52, Arm Strength 46; CHONE +1

He’d have a weak arm for a SS, but maybe not so bad that his bat wouldn’t make up for it. I’m not sure I’d want him in front of a young groundballing staff at SS though.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 14, 2009 9:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The way I think about it,

if a guy has a weak arm for SS he can get away with that SO much better if the player is an accomplished defensive player in general – good jumps, good footwork, a good feel for fielding and throwing efficiently, etc. Hudson has all that so I assume he’d be as good a SS as you could hope for given his limitations – which would still be there, of course.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 14, 2009 9:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Because he plays it great, instead of playing SS average

Either that or because he’d play SS badly, I don’t know.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 15, 2009 7:30 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

stephen drew

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Jan 15, 2009 5:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Who is not a good defender. When Hudson came up with Toronto in 2002 their SS was

Chris Woodward, also a mediocre defender. I’m wondering why he keeps playing 2B with crappy defensive SS around.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 15, 2009 5:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Where did you get -3 for offense?

He’s been about 10 runs above average the past few years. Even the bearish CHONE projects him as above average next season, with a .337 wOBA.

by CapgrasDelusion on Jan 14, 2009 9:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I see where you got it now....

I guess CHONE’s league-average projection is a bit high. I believe it was .335 for the AL this past season.

by CapgrasDelusion on Jan 14, 2009 9:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not vouching for CHONE's projections BTW. I keep quoting them since they're easy

to interpret. ZiPS doesn’t give +/- offense #s and PECOTA isn’t out yet.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 14, 2009 9:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

My non-scientific figuring is that Hudson

would be way better than Crosby – a “good offensive SS” instead of a “putrid one” – and that defensively he would be average: great turning the DP, good instincts and fundamentals, mediocre range, and a poor arm.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 14, 2009 9:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmmm.....here are some of his most similar fielders by Fan Scouting Report

Hudson — Overall 79, Arm Strength 55

Maicer Izturis — Overall 70, Arm Strength 54, CHONE at SS +2, Career UZR at SS +7
Alfredo Amezaga — Overall 73, Arm 49, CHONE +5, UZR +10
Hu Chin-lung — Overall 72, Arm 63, CHONE +7, UZR +4
Orlando Cabrera — Overall 67, Arm 49, CHONE +1, UZR +7

Here are some SS who probably shouldn’t be SS much longer:

Michael Young — Overall 48, Arm 65, CHONE 9, UZR -6*
Derek Jeter -
Overall 53, Arm 64, CHONE 13, UZR -6
Jhonny Peralta -
Overall 40, Arm 65, CHONE -8, UZR -8

  • 2006-2008 only

It looks to me that if Hudson is healthy, he’s got a good chance at being above average at SS. I retract my statement about the young groundballing staff. Sign that man!

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 14, 2009 10:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you may be comparing Hudson to other 2B in that +10. CHONE compares to

all hitters. I believe he doesn’t count pitchers but I’m not sure.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 14, 2009 9:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wouldn't the standard for offense only be lower for a SS?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 14, 2009 9:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Also catcher. And much higher at 1B, corner OF and DH

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 14, 2009 10:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No, I was comparing against league average across all positions

The discrepancy is coming from CHONE’s projection, which is just .337 for 2009.

My +10 figure was using the past couple of seasons in which he posted a .361 and .358, respectively. Regardless, I think we can agree he would be a substantial upgrade with the bat.

by CapgrasDelusion on Jan 14, 2009 10:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ah I see. You're using wOBA. So CHONE might be conservative on his hitting

projection.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 14, 2009 10:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Neither does Bobby Crosby

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 14, 2009 7:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

eh who needs a shortstop anyway?

seriously, just sign another LF and play him in shallow left field. Sure, all balls hit between 2b and 3b will be hits, but at least they’d be singles. And heck, who knows, if Prince Fielder, Bengie Molina, or David wells comes to bat, we might even have a shot at getting them out!

"I'm on hold for now"- Bobby Crosby

by DyeLongJustice on Jan 14, 2009 8:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

re

I’m sure it’s too risky for the A’s to consider, but Orlando Hudson actually has arm enough to play SS. His defense didn’t show well last year, across metrics, but he may have just had an off year (there’s the big risk). With his bat, he’d be an upgrade over Crosby even if the defense was a little below average. Looking at what’s out there, I don’t think he could get more than something like 3/$24m from anyone (and he may not approach that), and on a deal like that, if it did turn out he couldn’t handle SS, he’d most likely be dealable in the future. We are talking about less than optimal options.

On the list, I prefer Tejada, as unlikely as it seems. Ed Wade was even quoted today as saying the Astros are $8 or $9m above where they ought to be. Crosby plus one of the minor league middle relievers ought to get it done.

by AgitationStation on Jan 14, 2009 8:48 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

If this is all it takes they really should do it

I mean Tejada is close to being done as a player but his last year was still way out of wack of his others on offense and he’s probably about equal to cabrera really, and this way it’s only a 1 year contract and it doesn’t cost a pick.

Can't get enough of the Oakland A's? Visit Oaktown Awesomer's

by iamawesomer on Jan 14, 2009 10:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

thats very interesting...

If he actually said $8 or $9 million above, that almost seems like he is priming the media to be receptive to a Tejada trade.

www.punditpolitics.com - Political IQ Tests, Pundit Blog, News and Opinion.

by ChadGod on Jan 14, 2009 10:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Oops

Got it a little bit wrong. Here’s what he exactly said:

“We’d have to sit down and have a discussion,” Wade said. “Where we are right now, our payroll is $107 million. Last year, we finished around $98 million. We’re really up against our number at 107, and it’s a number, quite frankly, that the revenues don’t support.”

Pretty close to what I remembered, but not exactly. Wade also said the Astros 99% sure they’re going to go with what they currently have, but that was in reference to not adding any more players. It’s not a secret out in Houston that the Astros would love to dump Tejada’s contract though. Does depend a bit on which way the media is blowing out there. I’ve never seen an owner influenced by the press the way Drayton McClane is (and they still rip him constantly, which is the funny part.)

by AgitationStation on Jan 14, 2009 11:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well then, that settles it:

If Billy Beane is getting the band back together, then Miggy needs to come back and be the drummer!

by mrod on Jan 15, 2009 12:13 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

The horrible irony

Is that the one option truly outside the box and intriguing at SS, moving Mark Ellis over, probably doesnt have the arm strength due to…Bobby Crosby. Still, he could toss it over to Chavez who could get it to first, or walk it over to second and throw it, and he still would probably be better than Crosby.

by mikedaviswhereareyou on Jan 15, 2009 1:01 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Yes Crosby's had an impact beyond his mere statistics.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 15, 2009 1:04 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd already scratched him off long ago.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 15, 2009 5:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Eckstein is so pesky that I keep scratching, and keep scratching,

but I can’t get rid of him.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 15, 2009 7:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

and now i have a new sigline

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Jan 16, 2009 3:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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