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Mark McGwire, why he should be in the hall

First, let's get it out of the way right off the bat. He used steroids.  He has admitted it, and I don't mean tacitly by "not talking about the past."

Now for the stuff that matters.

Star-divide

Mark McGwire is the career leader in home run frequency. Once every 10.6 at bats Mark McGwire hit one over the fence. That is better than Babe Ruth, WIllie Mays, Barry Bonds (who also should be in the hall when his time comes), Hank Aaron, and anyone else of any consequence that ever played baseball at the major league level.Perhaps Josh Gibson had a better rate, but he didn't play in the major leagues (which is admittedly a bigger injustice than Mac being snubbed).

So people will say that he only hit home runs because he took steroids, I disagree but  also say so what if he did. He played in an era tainted by steroids and it is unfair to assume he was a) not the best home run hitter of his generation despite the numbers that indicate otherwise and b) unfair to blame him for an entire leagues worth of folks who aided their weight lifting recovery by increasing their testosterone levels.

We now know that Ken Caminiti was correct when he said, at least half of the players in his generation were taking roids. Though it was unlawful to take certain types of steroids (Andro was not one of those), it was not against the rules of baseball. And if we can all agree that Caminiti was right about the numbers (or that Canseco's guess of 85% was right) and that steroids increase a players production then it stands to reason that the best of players from the 90's were all cheaters. That also means that if you believe steroids disqualifies one from being in the hall of fame than only the worst 15-50% of players from the 90's are eligible. Who wants to see Mike Gallego in the hall? Walt Weiss? Jose Lind anyone?

This is clearly presumptuous. The truth is, we don't know who used illegal substances outside of Jose Canseco, Ken Caminiti and Rafael Palmiero. So what we have to do is use the facts as they are to determine who performed best on the field. Mark McGwire is clearly one of those guys if you consider just his numbers.

The moral indignation is comical to me, though I admit I felt that way once. If anyone would like to argue morals I would like to point to the the fact that the man who made sure that Josh Gibson died having hit all 962 of his home runs outside of the Major Leagues is a proud member of the hall.

The hall also houses a murderer in Ty Cobb, an admitted cheater in Gaylord Perry and several Giants players who benefitted from scoreboard operators who let them know what pitch was coming.

I will admit, after the congressional hearings I was not sure about Mac. Now that more facts have surfaced it is clear that McGwire is not a member of some immoral minority in his use of steroids (which in his case we know to be a legal over the counter supplement at the time). So the question becomes do you stop an entire generation of players from ever being able to enter the hall? For me the answer is clearly and emphatically no. Because of this Mark McGwire should be in the hall.

 

 

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Andro was not classified as a steroid until 2004.

I’m not saying that means McGwire didn’t take PEDs, but citing his use of Andro as proof that he took steroids is incorrect.

by mikev on Jan 13, 2009 10:54 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

That's not true

Andro is an anabolic and has been known as such since long before anybody in the mainstream media even knew what it was called.

by jeffro on Jan 14, 2009 7:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

too many rodis without any weights? ha

I am not much of a body builder either really. I do lift and have experimented with various supplements including testo boostage and no and whey protein and muscle milk. Andro was the first supplement I ever really read up on and decided against ever using. In 1998 there were folks calling it a steroid and the affect it has on your body is not really different than any other synthetic testosterone boosting substances… whether or not is was officially classified as a steroid by some governing body, it has always had the affect of anabolic steroids.

by jeffro on Jan 14, 2009 9:18 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the main difference is (was?) that it has to be metabolized into something else.

Maybe it’s a slippery slope argument, but at some point you have to draw the line. Is creatine going to be called a steroid next, or protein supplements, etc.

by mikev on Jan 14, 2009 9:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No

That’s the point. Creatine and protein operate significantly different than andro or something like trebanol.

Andro is a prohormone

by jeffro on Jan 14, 2009 10:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No

You are missing a very key point here. Andro, norandro, and all the other “prohormones” are part of the testosterone chain. The “prohormone” name was a gimmick, a trick, that the supplement manufacturers came up to get around the stigma and the legal issues of anabolic steroids.

I say all this as someone who lifts weights, and who is (very) pro supplements.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 14, 2009 1:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That very well may be true, but it doesn't change the original point.

Andro wasn’t reclassed as a steroid and subsequently banned until 2004, three years after McGwire’s retirement.

Citing the use of Andro as proof that McGwire took steroids is shaky at best.

by mikev on Jan 14, 2009 2:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Citing use of Andro is proof that he took steriods

HOWEVER, citing his use of Andro as proof that he was in anyway wrong or against the rules/illegal is shaky at best. It’s not as if he were doing something illegal (both federally and within the game) at the time he was doing Andro. It’s unfair to retroactively put that on him.

In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!

by DMOAS on Jan 14, 2009 6:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

my point exactly

andro is a roid. so what?

by jeffro on Jan 14, 2009 8:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Your arguing scemantics

Andro is, was and always has been a steroid. It was banned from most sports except baseball at the time McGwire took it (Olympics, NHL, NFL). Whatever the US Government called the substance and whatever MLB called the substance… it is the physiological impact that is important.

by jeffro on Jan 15, 2009 7:33 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, andro does not really have the effect of anabolic steroids

Not in the real world.

That is really the tragedy of McGwire using andro. Andro as an anabolic supplement is mostly a scam.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 14, 2009 1:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

My biggest objection to McGwire in the hall is his suspiciously unusual career pattern. It is important to remember that McGwire’s credentials through the age of 32 are remarkably unexceptional. After a brilliant rookie season, which I believe was genuine, he failed to assert himself as a dominant player until 1995/96. After about five seasons as the best hitter in baseball his career went into rapid decline and ended abruptly at the age of 37. Is it a coincidence that McGwire peaked in his mid-thirties and took steroids? I think not. I challenge anybody to find a player in baseball history whose hall of fame credentials rest on his sudden development as a hitter in his mid-thirties. I would vote for Bonds because he demonstrated that he was an elite player without steroids. I don’t think the same case could be made for McGwire. While I don’t believe steroids exclude a player from consideration, I believe that we are allowed to take liberties in denying entrance to players whose greatness depend on performance enhancing drugs.

by natethesnyde on Jan 13, 2009 10:54 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

McGwire's "non-dominant" years:

1988: 32 HR (3rd in the AL, 4th overall)
1989: 33 HR (3rd in AL, 7th overall), led the league in fewest AB:HR
1990: 39 HR (3rd in MLB), 6th in AL in OPS+ (10th overall), 3rd in AB:HR
1991: Rough year offensively
1992: Led the AL in OPS+ (2nd overall behind Bonds), led both leagues in AB:HR
1993: Injured, only 27 G (AB:HR still histori, 225 OPS+)
1994: Injured, only 47 G (AB:HR still great)

He had one rough year, two years where he was hurt, and 4 years amongst the league leaders. Maybe he wasn’t historically, crazily, juiced-ball-ily good like he was later, but he was still among the best players in baseball.

au contra ire

by JediLeroy on Jan 14, 2009 12:16 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

McGwire was a good player before he became great. There was nothing historically unusual about McGwire’s performance. History is full of first basemen who put up simular power numbers, Joe Adcock, Cecil Fielder, Frank Howard, and no one advocates their admission. For a pure power hitter like McGwire, two 40 hr seasons before the age of 30 is nothing special. Basically, McGwire’s case rests on the years 1995-99, a stretch which occured from ages 31-36. If indeed McGwire wasn’t juiced from the beginning, I see the effect of steroids as such: McGwire was a terrific talent who had a terrific rookie season, but could never take that next step as a player. He remained solid during the A’s pennant run, but then fell upon hard times in the early 90s. His two injury riddled seasons are the best evidence for steroid use. Either the injuries were the side effects of a new user (as was the case for Bonds in 1999), or steroids helped him recover from the injuries and continue to weight train. We often forget that steroid’s primary usefulness is their ability to allow players to recover from injuries and lift weights more consistantly. Perhaps McGwire realized after 1994 that he could lift weights even more strenuously, and be spared the nagging injuries that had plagued his career up to that point. McGwire was clearly talented, but he probably needed steroids to get him over the top.

by natethesnyde on Jan 14, 2009 9:34 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wait

Injury riddled seasons are the best evidence of steroid use, or steroids helped him to recover from injuries.

We often forget that steroid’s primary usefulness is their ability to allow players to recover from injuries and lift weights more consistantly.

“We” often forget that much of this is conjecture. There is little research on steroids, because of the anti steroids FUD, not just in the US, but all over the world.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 14, 2009 1:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I can have it both ways

Because we operate under the assumption that McGwire juiced, we are free to speculate all we want. Plantar fascitis certainly supports the theory that his injuries were brought about by steroids. It is also reasonable to assume that steroids enabled McGwire to recover from his injuries. Regardless, the belief that McGwire’s early career was hindered by injuries should be irrelevant to those in favor of his inclusion, because those injuries almost certainly were related to his steroid use in some way.

by natethesnyde on Jan 14, 2009 5:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Shannon Stewart?

So you are arguing the Plantar Fascitis is the result of steroid use? That is a common red herring used in McGwire’s case. Plantar fascitis is a common injury among baseball players for two reasons that both involve bases. Turning quick around the bases and hitting your foot hard when running into a base both result in this type of injury.

That said, I don’t doubt that McGwire used prohomones to aid in his recovery from work outs. I just don’t care. The point is, that if Canseco was telling the truth, as Dave Stewart believes, than 85% of all players were using some form of steroid. What that means is that McGwire’s performance relative to historical records should be taken as inflated, but his performance relative to his peers places him as the best power hitter of his era.

The best players of every era belong in the hall of fame.

by jeffro on Jan 14, 2009 8:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You Make A Decent Case

But in the end, it falters for the same fundamental reason that most of the pro-Clemens/Bonds/McGwire/Sosa arguments are flawed:

It is a cop-out to refuse to judge the relative impact of steroids and simply pretend that a ) they never occurred, and refuse to penalize anyone for their use or b) they were so prevalent as to make no player from this era Hall-worthy or, even worse, make it impossible draw any line.

Here’s what we know— McGwire’s power numbers went berserk midway in his career, after two injury-riddled seasons (planter fascitis) where he played hardly at all. It is obvious that something was rotten in Denmark— when he refused to answer direct questions about use of PEDs in the congressional hearings, and when Jose Canseco, an admitted steroid user who was suspected AS EARLY AS 1987-88, when the Bash Brothers first took wing, fingered Mcgwire as a user, well, one would have to be horribly naive or deliberately ignorant not to realize that he used.

And based on what we know about BALCO and the Bay Area in general, it is probably safe to assume that West Coast players— partic. Bay Area players— were very probably earlier, more extensive, and perhaps more sophisticated users than others in the sport.

And then finally there is the “he saved baseball” argument— aren’t Selig and Co. the hypocrites and why punish Mac? Well they are and were flaming hypocrites— Beane and Alderson included— they must have had a pretty damn good idea— well before 1998— what was going on. But to then not punish McGwire— or Clemens— or whomever we’re pretty darn sure about— is pretty much the same thing as telling Eichmann or the Nuremberg defendants they could get off, because in effect, they/he were “just following orders”.

The success was built on a lie— I don;t care what it did to attendance, TV contracts, or salaries— it fundamentally corrupted and damaged the sport— for perhaps a generation or longer to come. Someone talked about making some sort of asterisk in Cooperstown about the Steroid era, even as we admit all the law.. I mean record-breakers— to which I replay “How do we know that the era is even over?” HGH could be as rampant today as steroids were 10 years ago, for all we know.

Bottom line is that I g back to Potter Stewart— and in the case of Mcgwire, I know what I see/saw— a good player became a demigod, largely because of illegal substances, even if they weren’t yet banned in the sport itself. That basic truth means he shouldn’t be in Cooperstown, regardless of how many drunks, racists, and other miscreants are already there.

by windyfelix on Jan 13, 2009 11:04 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

But to then not punish McGwire— or Clemens— or whomever we’re pretty darn sure about— is pretty much the same thing as telling Eichmann or the Nuremberg defendants they could get off, because in effect, they/he were "just following orders".

Except that one group of people coldly murdered countless innocent people and the other group allegedly cheated (at a time when many others might have been cheating) at a game played with a ball and sticks.

au contra ire

by JediLeroy on Jan 14, 2009 12:23 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Godwin's law

is in effect.

"To this day and dating back 25 years, before every game he plays, Henderson stands completely naked in front of a full length locker room mirror and says, "Ricky’s the best," for several minutes."

by VORP is too nerdy on Jan 14, 2009 5:00 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Godwin's Law is cute... and ridiculous.

If the analogy is relevant, it’s relevant.

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Jan 14, 2009 9:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

sooooooo ... are you really claiming that the analogy is relevant?

a man has to have something to help the petite vanilla bean scones go down @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 14, 2009 9:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

see below

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Jan 14, 2009 4:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If the analogy is relevant

Most people won’t bring up Godwin’s Law.

The reason people bring up Godwin’s Law is because the analogy is not relevant. At all.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 14, 2009 2:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

People bring up "Godwin's Law" to try and stifle debate.

Godwin’s Law is a ridiculous concept to begin with, regardless of the subject matter.

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Jan 14, 2009 4:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No, people bring it up because they presume to take their interlocutors at their word

If you invoke a specific historical parallel, be it Nazis, Amway salesmen, or rodeo clowns, we accept what you’re saying and ask you to illuminate precisely in what way the parallels work. If you’re not willing to do that, then you shouldn’t invoke the parallel in the first place.

a man has to have something to help the petite vanilla bean scones go down @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 14, 2009 5:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

which I did

Everybody did it; just following orders (Selig)— the core defense is the same, though the crimes are as different as night and day.

by windyfelix on Jan 14, 2009 5:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Uh, no, you didn't

Golden Gate Bridge toll takers are also just following orders, as are Bob Geren, telemarketers, and waitresses.

a man has to have something to help the petite vanilla bean scones go down @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 14, 2009 6:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And..

I never wrote that anyone gave an order or gave any mention of motivation because it doesn’t really matter. I just stated that Ken Caminiti and Jose Canseco believed at least 50% as high as 85% used roids. That is relevant when judging Mark McGwire or Barry Bonds against Hank Aaron or Willie Mays or any of these guys against Babe Ruth. Just as considering the number of teams/minor league affiliates/size of scouted talent pool/lack of draft/etc. makes it impossible to truly compare players from different era’s with any certainty, so do advances in training techniques and supplementation. So you have to judge players against the other players of their era.

When you make judgments on individual players based on what you have heard or observed, I choose to make judgments on all the players based on the environment in which they played. I think I am being more objective (because I am pompous :)

And… if I had mentioned the players motivation and it was because of Selig, there is a large difference between tacit approval and issuing an order.

I am veklempt. Discuss amongst yourselves.

by jeffro on Jan 14, 2009 8:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

well, obviously the scale of the "crimes" could not be further apart

And a vote for Cooperstown is a long way away from a death sentence.

But the analogy is correct from this standpoint— proponents of McGwire’s HOF candidacy say, essentially, “everyone was doing it” and “he was getting at least tacit approval from highers-up, who were pleased with the results of his PED use”. (And wasn’t that the fundamental defense in Nuremberg?) And my retort is that we can’t absolve obvious “criminals”— in this context, though McGwire and many others, while PEDS were not outlawed within baseball’s rule structure, were actually breaking the law— based on this logic.

by windyfelix on Jan 14, 2009 6:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So then

top 75% performers of the steroid era should never be in the hall?

by jeffro on Jan 14, 2009 7:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

and where do you get 75% from??

You don’t have a clue— I don’t have a clue.

McGwire— No
Sosa— No
Bonds— Yes, because he was a HOFer before he juiced
Griffey— Yes, I don’t think he ever juiced
Clemens— No, unless he comes clean or someone comes clean about when he started juicing
Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz— Yes, I do not believe they ever juiced
Johnson— likewise
Jeter— Probably, but this could be the big bombshell to come
Thomas— Almost certainly not a juicer, so yes
ARod— the reverse, so I would suspend judgment in the hopes of more facts being known
Palmeiro— the problem is credibility. If he comes out and says I didn’t juice until, say, 2003— well he probably deserves the HOF for what he did prior to then— but can we ever believe him??
Manny— probably a juicer— but more borderline in that respect than ARod, so I probably vote him in.
Pudge— unquestionably a juicer - look at all the weight he suddenly lost-would not vote for him

And as for the next batch— Pujols, Utley, Reyes, Howard, etc.. time will tell about what we think or know they are doing or not doing.

I understand that some simply refuse to play God in this manner, but as I said I don’t think I can either excuse them or brand them all cheaters in one fell swoop. I have to try to make individual judgments based on the available evidence— and all sorts of evidence.

by windyfelix on Jan 14, 2009 8:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Everything in moderation, my friend.

Well, except mom’s pork green chili. I can eat that all day, every day.

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Jan 14, 2009 8:33 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well sure

But I don’t get why greenies are given a pass, but steroids are EVIL11111one!!!!

I mean hell, even if a guy DOES take steroids, he’s still got to pretty much be a workout freak or he’ll just get fat. With amphetamines, you can just wake up in the morning and pop a couple pills if you feel like crap because you went out on a bender the nigh before, and then feel A-OK in 20 minutes.

by mikev on Jan 14, 2009 8:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, I was just playing around

except about the green chili part

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Jan 14, 2009 9:24 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

no, no, no

“I’ve been craving tamale since yesterday.”

a man has to have something to help the petite vanilla bean scones go down @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 14, 2009 9:43 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Cute response

But ignores the fundamental point.

Take Bonds (please)

When he was not big, he won 3 MVPs and should have won a 4th. He was the best player in the game for most of a decade. Then somewhere in and around 1999-2000, he started to get huge. Plus Conte talks about him being a client.

I can judge his performance prior to 1999-2000 and deem him worthy of the Hall.

by windyfelix on Jan 14, 2009 9:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

*

So if Clemens comes clean and says he juiced after 2000. Is he a HOFer? You argue Bonds was a HOFer before he started taking steroids. Are his statistics listed in the HOF his non-steroid stats or total stats? Same question for Clemens. If you suddenly can point to a date of steroid use for these HOF players how can you compare their numbers against others non-users? In 50 years a kid looks Greg Maddux’s performance on the field and compares it to Roger Clemens’ but are they really comparable? Is Barry Bonds really a more prolific power hitter than Hank Aaron or was that a titled achieved chemically? Certainly he should be remembered as an incredible hitter but should we choose to remember him as a dominant power hitter?

I just think it is difficult to defend separating performance between two chapters of a career (non-steroid and steroid) as the criterion for voting but then recognize both chapters historically.

If the A's can build around Holiday, Furcal, Cust, and maybe call up 2nd baseman Wes Childs at some point in the year, they have a shot to take a weak AL West. -- jameersju post on ESPN.com

by youdownwithOBP on Jan 14, 2009 9:00 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

"I do not believe"

Based on what?

a man has to have something to help the petite vanilla bean scones go down @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 14, 2009 9:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

well...

how about

1) actual performance

2) physical evidence— i.e, body type and any physiological changes

3) character judgment— I trust Thomas and Griffey and Maddux— I don’t necessarily trust ARod (or Juan Gonzalez) or Manny and I’m ambivalent about Jeter

And if you say that any of the above is beyond the analytical limits of an ordinary baseball fan— let alone an exalted type such as a BBWAA member (sorry, couldn’t help it)- then I respectuflly disagree.

by windyfelix on Jan 14, 2009 9:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You and I are both "qualified" to weigh in on #1 and 2 ...

… though I think Buds Bunny’s Wabbit Ball had more to do with inflated power numbers during the “steroid era,” you’re certainly making a compelling argument regarding McGwire’s late-career perf boost (though who’s to say whether the actual power was boosted; my suspicion is that his power would have kept on keepin’ on had he been healthy the previous 3 seasons, and that staying on the field was the most beneficial effect he enjoyed from the joy juice). And as for #2, to follow on my parenthetic, most everything I’ve ever read sez that staying on the field — not getting all Schwarzeneggeresque — is the primary benefit to ’roiding. So, more than anyone who enjoyed a mid-career power boost, players (especially pitchers) who maintained good and consistent health should be tripping your alarm bells: that puts Maddux under suspicion by your own standards.

As for #3, that’s utter and thoroughgoing bullshit. If you know any major leaguers personally, you can vouch for their character (or lack thereof); if not, you’re talking out your ass.

a man has to have something to help the petite vanilla bean scones go down @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 14, 2009 10:19 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Basically, rumours and conjecture and personal biases

Well, IMO, based on the same criteria as you is that they all used. All of them. Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Clemens, Maddux, Johnson, Pedro, Glavine, Chipper, Smoltz, Griffey, etc.

All of them.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 14, 2009 2:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

exactly

a man has to have something to help the petite vanilla bean scones go down @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 14, 2009 3:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry nope. The analogy is still not correct

You cannot remove the nature, and the consequences of the crime from your analogy.

We can’t absolve obvious “criminals”? There are still jurisdictions in the US where people who are gay, or lesbian, or bi, or transgendered would be “obvious criminals”. They are actually breaking the law.

There, I’m also capable of making ridiculous analogies.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 14, 2009 2:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So, Hank Aaron's success was built on a lie?

Do you also contend that amphetamine and stimulant use also fundamentally corrupted and damaged the sport? If not, why not?

Yes, HGH use could as rampant today as steroids were. As amphetamines were during Aaron’s era. And so on.

And how is cheating via the use of steroids, amphetamines etc different from cheating by the use of “dirty” hats, spitballs etc?

Lastly, please stop lumping Sosa in there with McGwire, Bonds etc.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 14, 2009 2:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, since Sammy forgot he knew English

I guess I could forget about his corked bat and obvious steroid-influenced body change. Let alone the 60+ HRs.

I’m sorry— I guess I believe in humankind’s enlightment— that just because Ty Cobb or Burliegh Grimes or dozens of other players nearly 100 years ago figured out ways to cheat, we shouldn’t condone the cheaters of today.

And as for the “greenie” argument, I guarantee you that the average player in the 1990s (or today) that did PEDs had a very different attitude about the moral rectitude of that action than the average player in the 1950s or 60s that popped an amphetamine. Not to mention the hugedifference in performance impact. I frankly am not going to get into the business of saying that Aaron—or Mays— are just as criminal as McGwire or Bonds— that is a presposterous argument that attempts to cheapen the achievements of players who deserve more respect and credit than their current counterparts. Call me old-fashioned.. call me stuffy.. call me a typical old fart— I don’t care. If a key facet of your argument on behalf of McGwire or Bonds or Sosa or any of the other cheaters of the past 20 years rests on lumping Aaron, Mays and the other superstars of the previous generation together with them on a baseball rap sheet, then count me out. You’re playing a losing hand, my friend. Fold it.

by windyfelix on Jan 14, 2009 2:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Right.

OK, if you ever get hauled up before parliament in France, or Spain, or Mexico, or Japan, or China, or whatever, let’s hope that you can speak a language other than English fluently.

Otherwise, you’re guilty. Have you ever heard Sosa speak English? If you have have, let’s say that your level of English ability is at the same level as Sosa’s. Would you want to answer questions with possible legal repercussions in English?

And as for the "greenie" argument, I guarantee you that the average player in the 1990s (or today) that did PEDs had a very different attitude about the moral rectitude of that action than the average player in the 1950s or 60s that popped an amphetamine. Not to mention the hugedifference in performance impact. I frankly am not going to get into the business of saying that Aaron—or Mays— are just as criminal as McGwire or Bonds— that is a presposterous argument that attempts to cheapen the achievements of players who deserve more respect and credit than their current counterparts. Call me old-fashioned.. call me stuffy.. call me a typical old fart— I don’t care. If a key facet of your argument on behalf of McGwire or Bonds or Sosa or any of the other cheaters of the past 20 years rests on lumping Aaron, Mays and the other superstars of the previous generation together with them on a baseball rap sheet, then count me out. You’re playing a losing hand, my friend. Fold it.

Ahh yes, so what happened to your Nuremberg analogy here then? Amphetamines was regarded as acceptable, ergo it is acceptable?

Of course you aren’t going to get into defending Aaron. Because you can’t. He cheated. He broke the law. An obvious criminal. I’m not going to call you old fashioned. Or stuffy. You don’t deserve those compliments.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 14, 2009 2:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

LOL-- I don't need to defend Aaron-- or Mays

They can do it perfectly well themselves. And if you ever found yourself in the same room with them, if they bothered to notice you, they’d stare you into the ground. "He cheated..He broke the law.. An obvious criminal’— that’s Henry Aaron you’re talking about. I’d say this argument is pretty much over right now. Ludicrous stuff. To go back to Godwin, you’re now saying that Luxembourg’s crimes— whatever they might be— are equal to the Third Reich. Keep digging your hole.

by windyfelix on Jan 14, 2009 5:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

They can stare.

I don’t give a rat’s flying arse.

Aaron can be Nelson Mandela for all I care. He broke the law. And baseball rules.

Why is using steroids equivalent to Nazism, but using amphetamines is equivalent to Luxembourg’s crimes, whatever they are.

Keep diggin your hole.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 15, 2009 6:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sosa had been in the big leagues for

over 15 years when that hearing occurred— and several different eyewitnesses from the Cubs or elsewhere said his English comprehension and speaking ability were excellent— and then he pulled an act on national television. If you can’t/didn’t see that, I can’t really help you.

by windyfelix on Jan 14, 2009 5:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Have you heard most Latino players speak English

Manny Ramirez has been in MLB for how many years? You think he will be comfortable answering legal questions in English?

Why should Sosa answer questions with legal ramifications in a language that he might not be comfortable in? So that people like you can try to trip him up on perjury charges?

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 15, 2009 6:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The one thing about McGwire specifically that bothers me is...

…the fact that so many of his home runs were hit in the last 5-6 years of his career. It’s not implausible that the ’roids helped in that regard and that he would not have come anywhere close had he not.

And yes, I know he’s not the only one, but he’s the one being discussed.

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Jan 14, 2009 9:24 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Yeah but he still had to hit the homers.

its not like you can take some roids then just walk up to the plate and the ball just turn around once it has left the pitchers had and fly over the fence.

by A'sfaninNC on Jan 14, 2009 12:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Would he have been heathy enough often enough without the 'roids to hit them?

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Jan 14, 2009 4:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Might have been moreso

All that added weight to his frame helped destroy his back. And I wouldn’t be surprised if his feet problems were a result of added stress brought on by weight gain.

In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!

by DMOAS on Jan 14, 2009 7:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Doubtful.

But, nobody knows for sure. It’s all speculation either way.

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Jan 14, 2009 10:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Another thought

Over the past few years, I’ve explained numerous times why I do not think McGwire belongs in the HOF.

But this is not a case-closed issue.

McGwire remains on the ballot for 12 more years. It has only been the past few years that writers and baseball thinkers have begun to seriously grapple with the meaning of the steroid era for baseball. The next few years, Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro and other PED-fueled elites will be on the ballot. During this period, I expect that we will learn a lot more about these and other players use, alleged and otherwise, and gain a better understanding of its historical context.

So McGwire is not in the HOF, for now. But that doesn’t he will never be elected. Maybe writers just need more time to sort this all out. Writers have been known to change their minds. The HOF ballot really is more of a process than a final verdict.

"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."

-Charles Manson

by kaweahkaweah on Jan 14, 2009 3:22 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

The apologists in this thread...

…and on this subject in general, is mind-boggling.

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Jan 14, 2009 4:33 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

And the refusal of the apologists on the amphetamines issue

is mind-boggling.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 14, 2009 4:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

you're basically saying...

that if I drink coffee I am just as morally culpable as if I shoot heroin. I mean please.

by windyfelix on Jan 14, 2009 5:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Do you not get what a greenie is?

It’s speed, an amphetamine. A greenie is a lot closer to heroin than it is to something as weak as caffeine.

In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!

by DMOAS on Jan 14, 2009 7:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Off course he gets it

But if his idols like Aaron or Mays cheated, it’s fine.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 15, 2009 6:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

ROFPML. LOL

Hilarious.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Jan 15, 2009 6:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Who's making apologies?

I don’t apologize for the players having taken PEDs; I simply couldn’t care less whether they did or didn’t.

a man has to have something to help the petite vanilla bean scones go down @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 14, 2009 5:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

General comment... aimed at no one person in particular.

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Jan 14, 2009 10:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree he should be in

Writers are using McGwire as an example as the first steroid player elegible and considered. I say a player should be able to get in based on the performance on the field, in the past pitchers have cheated using foreign substances(I realize not as serious as PED’s), many other players have used as well during the “steriod era”. Doesn’t make it right, just saying. As much as I despise Bonds, he doesn’t belong on the HOF either? Really? Then if/when he goes in, how do you still hold it against McGwire, Sosa, Palmiero, etc? Clemens likey used as well, he will get in at some point. I think writers are making their point as they believe are the ones who can save or control the “purity” of the game in regards to its history. But as time goes on the ones who have numbers deserving, which Mac has, will get in. Might be awhile though.

I bring up the point that the NFL had steriod issues back in the 70’s and there are plenty of players in the HOF that probably used, but since its football it wasn’t as big of a deal. History will judge the players that admitted or were proven to use, or even assumed….the HOF shouldn’t be part of that as we will probably never have absolute PROOF of it. JMHO.

Gas to Chicago- $23.87 A's/White Sox Tix- $28 Watching the A's whipping the Sox in July 05'- Priceless

by WiscoFan on Jan 14, 2009 8:06 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

70's?

How bout Shawne Merriman two years ago? Suspended for four games for juicing and then playing in the pro bowl that same year.

by jeffro on Jan 14, 2009 9:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If half of the players of the era were using steroids...

then is it cheating or is it an accepted practice? If it was an accepted practice winked at by owners,players and the media then why penalize McGwire for his use?

by IM4Oakgal on Jan 14, 2009 10:41 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

It was against the rules at the time

Enforcement was non-existent, but the rule was on the book.

"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."

-Charles Manson

by kaweahkaweah on Jan 15, 2009 7:16 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wrong

The only mention of steroids in the “rulebook” was a Faye Vincent memo, that had no power as it was not collectively bargained, that was posted in teams clubhouses. There is an interview that Faye Vincent did with Dan Patrick explaining this, you can probably find it on the internet.

by jeffro on Jan 15, 2009 7:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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