Michael Young?

by RayJEdd on Jan 12, 2009 10:00 AM PST Comment 71 comments

Are we interested in Michael Young for 5 years at $62 million, plus whatever it takes to trade for him? How about for $50 million, or for $40 million? The Rangers want him to move to third base to make room for highly touted prospect Elvis Andrus at shortstop. Young does not want to and instead asked to be traded. If he is a poor value relative to his contract, then it might not take too much to trade for him, and the Rangers may offer to pay part of his salary.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Aqr7bBHHDGXCI17xZvstm.YRvLYF?slug=ap-rangers-young&prov=ap&type=lgns

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According to fangraphs

he isn’t a good value.

by jeffro on Jan 12, 2009 10:10 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't want Michael Young if the Rangers were giving him away

That could be the worst contract in baseball (it’s top 5 for sure).

by thejd44 on Jan 12, 2009 10:14 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

well, they might be giving him away.

If they want to trade him, then whoever they trade with will want to get equal value. So the rangers will have to pay part of his salary, or include other players, or take someone elses negative value player, or….

I like young better that furcal and we were willing to give him $40million over 4 years.

by RayJEdd on Jan 12, 2009 10:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Young isn't better than Furcal.

I’m not sure that’s even very close.

by thejd44 on Jan 13, 2009 8:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Zito and Schmidt are two I can think of

WIthout having access to Cot’s at work, it’s difficult to think of more.

I always thought Young was pretty good.

by EddieVegas_NRAF on Jan 12, 2009 10:21 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Has Sexson's contract run out yet?

That one was also pretty bad.

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Jan 12, 2009 1:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It ran out last season

He got released by Seattle midway through the year, which is always a sign of a truly disastrous contract.

In terms of epic fail contracts out there right now, I’d nominate Juan Pierre, Andruw Jones, Julio Lugo and Carlos Silva.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 12, 2009 4:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Gary Matthews Jr.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 12, 2009 4:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

does big frank on the blue jays count?

not sure how much he was paid…but i think it was a lot

Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!

by naq92 on Jan 12, 2009 6:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Nope

Expired. Not looking for worst contracts of all time, just the worst current contracts. Mike Hampton and Carl Pavano are also no longer “eligible.”

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 12, 2009 6:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

what about Jose Guillen?

"I have more questions after these."-WaddellCanseco

by Gaijin_Suketto on Jan 13, 2009 12:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

He's only signed for 2 more years

Young is, basically, a 2 WAR player NOW making 2.5 WAR money for the next 5 years. That’s… not good.

by thejd44 on Jan 13, 2009 8:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I should add that calling him a 2 WAR player is assuming he's not quite as bad as he was last season

I think he’ll rebound some in 2009, but be about his 2008 form in 2010, and all downhill from there.

by thejd44 on Jan 13, 2009 8:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Right: Worst current contracts

by thejd44 on Jan 13, 2009 8:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Dontrelle Willis?

i mean he was sent to A ball.

Some of the most violent things I’ve ever seen were at Raiders games. And I’ve been to jail. - leopold bloom

by designatedforassignment on Jan 12, 2009 11:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That extension was pretty horrible.

by mikev on Jan 13, 2009 8:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

we already have this thread

and its corresponding tongue lashing

facepalm.jpg

by Zonis on Jan 12, 2009 10:31 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

No

"However, at Elias, I think they keep track of the amount of sunflower seeds spit in a dugout each night." - Brad Ziegler, 8/7/08

by doctorK on Jan 12, 2009 11:02 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Can someone explain why Young isn't worth much?

I’ve heard it explained briefly before, but most of what I know of him is that he’s a many time all star and once gold glove.

I’m not picking a side, just curious.

by RenoTy on Jan 12, 2009 11:04 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Three basic reasons

Too expensive.
Declining offense (OBP relies too much on a high batting average)
Bad defense (ignore the Gold Glove award – that usually goes to the best offensive play who manages to not totally embarrass himself in the field).

"However, at Elias, I think they keep track of the amount of sunflower seeds spit in a dugout each night." - Brad Ziegler, 8/7/08

by doctorK on Jan 12, 2009 11:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Gold Glove

I would not mind having the best offensive SS that will not totally embarrass himself in the field.

by RayJEdd on Jan 12, 2009 11:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

By the end of that contract,

he will totally embarrass himself in the field.

I’m not even sure he’ll be the best offensive SS in the AL, and that’s rapidly becoming a pretty bad set of hitters.

by Nate on Jan 12, 2009 11:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes we'd all love Hanley Ramirez

Can't get enough of the Oakland A's? Visit Oaktown Awesomer's

by iamawesomer on Jan 12, 2009 7:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The Rangers want him at third because they know the Gold Glove was a joke.

by thejd44 on Jan 13, 2009 8:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

also

Offensive stats inflated by playing in Texas.

Thanks for tomorrow 'cause I've had enough

by andeux on Jan 12, 2009 11:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Check this out

Fangraphs does a good job of having stats from just about every angle

Down towards the bottom there is a table that shows value in dollars/wins. I like that particular table best, but you can compare him to just about anybody looking at the charts and such.

by jeffro on Jan 12, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

If Beane can get him at a discount

Then this could be a huge upgrade for the A’s. We NEED players like Young in our lineup, because right now we have just one guy who bats above .300, and that ain’t enough to turn the tide of terrible hitting we’ve seen in recent years.

1 Solid defense.
2 Solid offense.
3 Healthier than Furcal, who we offered nearly as much money.

I’m sure it won’t happen, but I can’t understand A’s fans who wouldn’t WANT it to happen, unless they are masochists who enjoy watching our team lose close games due to an inept offense.

by charm3x on Jan 12, 2009 12:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

he's not good

1 shitty defense
2 rapidly declining to a shitty level offense
3 much worse than furcal who we less money

also, batting average isnt a very good statistic. his offense is inflated by playing in texas. and he really really really cannot play defense.

"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"

by travdog6 on Jan 12, 2009 12:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The Rangers wouldn't want to trade him to the A's anyways

He has got to better than Crosby but he isn’t worth trading anyone good. And it would take a little cash from the Rangers also.

in other words, not gonna happen.

(the same trade thought did pop into my head for 2 seconds when I heard his demand on the network that won’t be named)

You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}

by micdog2001 on Jan 12, 2009 12:45 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Agree

Beane wouldn’t want to give a division rival anything worthwhile for Young (and we don’t have what they seek, a young 3B prospect), and Daniels wouldn’t want to give up Young to the A’s without getting a lot… In other words, it ain’t happening.

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 12, 2009 1:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Ok, just for the record,

the entire AL West seems to have pockets of fandom infected by this goofiness. Somewhat thankfully, it seems to inspire the same reaction everywhere.

The reasonably smart folks at LL had someone say “I would love to see Young in an M’s uniform this year.” and most people shouted that person down. A few supported it, but mostly as a way to attempt to jettison Carlos Silva’s contract.

Even the folks at HH said hell no, and I’m pretty sure those people bite the heads off of kittens for fun.

by Nate on Jan 12, 2009 2:48 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

It's worse than I thought.

I’m absolutely gobsmacked at how many SBN boards have someone positing acquiring Michael Young, but my faith in humanity is being restored by the fact that the median level of support for such a move seems to be “HELL NO!”

From South Side Sox.
Bluebird Banter.
TwinkieTown.
Over the Monster. (and what the hell do the Red Sox need Young for? He’d just block Lowrie.)
McCovey Chronicles. (Didn’t the Gnats already sign a shortstop?)
Gaslamp Ball. (Huh? The Padres have been pinching pennies tight enough to make us look like the Yankees.)
Bucs Dugout. (The Pirates? Really?)
The Red Reporter. (Great quote: “I’d argue that he’s better suited for the position now than he was 3 years ago. He was dreadful at SS when he first started playing there. Now he is merely awful. Progress!” “If a statement like that doesn’t qualify him to be a Red, I don’t know what does.”)
Bleed Cubbie Blue. (Why in God’s name would the Cubs need to saddle themselves with Young?)

by Nate on Jan 13, 2009 1:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Too much

he would be good if he didnt come with the big contract

Time to compete now !

by UniqueDefiance on Jan 12, 2009 3:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

why would texas trade to us?

sure he would be an upgrade over Crosby but why send prospects to a division rival? I hate seeing Nelson Cruz I think his name is Over in Texas i would rather get Escobar off of the Braves

by beatNYY on Jan 12, 2009 4:20 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Young would be a good fit

Aren’t you guys getting a little tired of the whole OBP is better than BA bit? I think I am. I sick of the situations when there is a guy on second base with two outs and our guys do not come through (walks don’t help). Young is as clutch as you can get. How many times has he gotten a big hit against the A’s? Too many IMO. He had 82 RBIs last year on a “down year.” We got the guys who get on base, now we should be getting the guys who drive them in.

During the last three years, his averages (BA-OBP-OPS) with
runners on (.329-.383-.840),
scoring position (.359-.415-.909),
and scoring position with two outs (.342-.422-.866)
are more than stellar.

He is also a great leader and locker room guy. A veteran that could help teach the young guys how to go “opposite field.” Remember when Crosby was said to be the “next” Michael Young or Nomar Garciaparra? Who is better to guide Crosby on becoming that than Young?

He is still a really good defender and with Chavez and Ellis, turning DPs would be a breeze.

I don’t know about you guys, but I think Young would benefit the A’s and their young team more than anyone could realize.

He has also always given the Angels fits which is always fun to watch as an A’s fan.

by nateh37 on Jan 12, 2009 5:49 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I'm not as down on Young as some people, but he is not a really good defender. He's a below average

defender, both by numbers and by scouting reports.

As far as being a great leader and locker room guy, the tantrum he’s throwing about moving to 3B for a better defender at SS don’t indicate that to me.

He is, however, a good hitter for a SS, and probably a bit better than last year when he had a broken finger.

I like his offense. His defense and personality….not so much.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 12, 2009 6:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know what you're talking about

Numbers say he is a good defender. (last year’s numbers)
2nd in MLB in Assists
Only one regular shortstop made LESS errors
1st in DPs (as I previously mentioned)
2nd in fielding %
4th in Range Factor

I also watched him play 15+ games last year and think he is a good defender. At this point, almost any SS is better than Crosby. Young could also take him under his wing like he did to Kinsler.

Answer me this, you have held a position for a company for the past eight years and have been very productive (one of the best in your field) only to have your company move you to a position you are not comfortable in and pays less (less chances at 3B than SS), would you be ticked? I know I would.

by nateh37 on Jan 12, 2009 7:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

most advanced defensive metrics

say he sucks in the field, and many people agree. his offense is also going to decline as he ages, and he was aided by the ballpark in arlington which is a great hitters park.

good point, but he’s still making the same. that being said i can see why he’s mad to some extent. but he really isnt good enough to play ss anymore.

by travdog6 on Jan 12, 2009 7:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'll quote bUZR since I have access to it, and it's not worse than Dewan's +/- nor sUZR.

bUZR from Fangraphs and CHONE’s projection:

Runs vs Average:

2004: -20.2
2005: – 24.6
2006: -3.2
2007: -10.1
2008: -3.7
2009: -9

Young’s improved a lot from his early years, but he’s still a 2B trying to play out of position. As he gets older, he ain’t gonna get no better.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 12, 2009 7:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Ranger watchers who participated in the Fan Scouting Report agreed with the numbers,

giving Young a rating of 48, which is almost average, in 2008. Here are his “position-neutral” numbers for recent years, basically as a generic IF, not compared only to other SS:

2008 — 48
2007 — 55
2006 — 66
2005 — 67

So while Young was a good IF relative to other IF, if not to other SS, observers who watch the Rangers regularly think he’s declining. This makes sense since SS tend to peak defensively around 24, and these were his Age 28-31 years.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 12, 2009 7:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Actually it's the last 5 years

by nateh37 on Jan 12, 2009 7:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

If Alex Rodriguez, possibly the greatest SS of all time, can move to 3B for the good of the team, I have no sympathy for a nobody

like Young being a prima donna. While A-Rod may not be popular in Texas, and may be less popular than Young, Young isn’t fit to clean his jock as a player.

Basically you’re saying his reaction is understandable. That doesn’t make it impressive, nor does it enhance my perception of his personality, which I believe to be that of prima donna.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 12, 2009 7:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

-1

to, well, everything in this post.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 12, 2009 7:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

No

We want Michael Young to replace Crosby because he will make the free agent to be Crosby better and because Young is a good defender?

You’re kidding right?

Some of the most violent things I’ve ever seen were at Raiders games. And I’ve been to jail. - leopold bloom

by designatedforassignment on Jan 12, 2009 11:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Why is it a "bit" when it's, you know, true?

by thejd44 on Jan 13, 2009 8:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

What I think is most important to consider is that

Michael Young has had 2,525 ABs (and over 2,700 plate appearances) on the road in his career, which is a very large sample, and his career totals are:

.279/.323/.404 (.728 OPS)

That’s probably the best guess as to what line he would put up with another team, because it’s what he’s done over a lot of ABs when not hitting in Texas – and it’s just nothing special.

Add to that his declining defense and he’s really not a big bump up from Orlando Cabrera – and is about at the level of the currently declining Tejada. Neither of whom carry the combination of salary and # of years commitment that come with Young.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 12, 2009 7:35 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Well, if he is really better offensively than 2008 once his finger heals he could rebound to close to 2006-7

numbers and be a 2.5-3.5 WAR player. That’s about a win better than Cabrera. It’s just that he’s likely to decline into a 1.0-1.5 WAR player by the fifth year of his deal.

I’d probably trade Crosby for him even up, since it’s not my money and there’s no one on the A’s I really want to re-sign other than Holliday, but they’d probably do better spending that money on Sheets, and keeping Crosby (ugh!) or playing Pennington (ugh again!)…or better yet trading for a SS prospect like DeJesus or something. Also I doubt the Rangers would do that deal.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 12, 2009 7:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That's not entirely accurate.

Road splits are not a great way to determine how someone is going to hit overall after moving to a new team.

by Nate on Jan 12, 2009 7:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

No, but it's a heck of a lot more accurate than

combining their road and home stats when they play at Arlington and their home/away splits are like night and day (though ironically, their night and day stats are not like home and away).

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 12, 2009 7:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

But not nearly as good as adjusting all stats to a neutral environment. Home games count in the standings too.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 12, 2009 7:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Home crowd, sleeping in your own bed, using the resources you are used to at the home stadium, familiar infield, seeing the ball where you are used to, etc.

Also has some influence. I like looking at the road splits, but don’t totally judge a player by that. I haven’t heard anyone talk about Holliday’s road spits (which are worse than his home ones but still very good).

by nateh37 on Jan 12, 2009 7:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

People have talked about them

but they do it almost the same way, just assuming that because the home stadium is very favorable towards hitters, discarding all the numbers put up there out of hand.

by Nate on Jan 12, 2009 8:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Right, CHONE has Young as 2 BRAA, which is very good for a SS.

It makes him something like a 2.5 WAR player. I’m rounding since I don’t like false precision. In any case it’s above average.

2 BRAA – 9 FRAA + 12 Position + 20 Avg over Repl = 23

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 12, 2009 7:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Erm

+12 position?

+7.5 is the correct adjustment for shortstops.

He’s basically an average player right now, who’s on the decline, and who’s signed for five more years.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jan 12, 2009 10:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure what the heck I was thinking....I must have been confused with C or something.,,,who knows?

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 13, 2009 12:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The problem is the decline.

No one thinks the contract for Young (especially minus the $18M) is horrible for 2009. It’s 2011-13 that makes one cringe.

by Nate on Jan 12, 2009 8:13 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Oh look, a reply button.

I wonder what that’s for?

by Nate on Jan 12, 2009 8:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Hey look, a "preview" button.

I wander what their for. Any guesse

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 12, 2009 8:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Spelling "guesses" right?

Or possible “they’re”?

by Nate on Jan 12, 2009 8:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Or possible.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 12, 2009 8:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I spelled 'possible' right.

It was just the wrong word.

The moral of the story is: the fewer words either of us types, the fewer we can screw up.

by Nate on Jan 12, 2009 8:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You may not have picked up on my deadpan humor

All the errors, including “wander” for “wonder” were intentional.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 12, 2009 8:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, if he's 3 WAR in 2009 and declines by .25 WAR per year, that's still about 1.5 WAR in 2013.

So that’s about 10 WAR total for about $60M. I’m thinking they’d have to throw in about $15M, which they’re almost certain not to want to do, if they’re getting nothing much back. Then again, the Phillies did that with Abreu and won the World Series a couple of years later.

It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver

by WaddellCanseco on Jan 12, 2009 8:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

If you think it'll be a steady, linear drop.

I think it’ll be more reminiscent of your average first drop on a roller coaster.

by Nate on Jan 12, 2009 8:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

My average first drop on a roller coaster

is followed by a steady stream of vomit.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 12, 2009 8:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs