The Holliday Market
by notsellingjeans on Jan 2, 2009 6:24 PM PST
Email
PrintThe baseball rumor-du-jour is a report in the Denver Post that the Giants are making an aggressive play for Manny Ramirez.
Some knee-jerk skepticism to that report is understandable; the Giants might simply want to drive up the price for the Dodgers, who had seemed to be his only suitor. But as Tim Dierkes of mlbtraderumors points out, the Giants spoke to Scott Boras about Manny back in November as well.
Let's assume for the sake of me having something to write about that San Francisco's interest is genuine. I'm going to make a lot of other assumptions in this post too - just go with 'em!
Manny led all hitters last year with a 7.57 WPA. if the Dodgers don't sign him, and their division rival does, it creates a Double Impact for L.A.
Won't the Dodgers be looking to counter that move somehow? They'll still have a hole in left field, despite having the most expensive 4th and 5th outfielders in history under contract.
{10:00am, Editor's Note - notsellingjeans was texting this post when the car he was driving slammed into the freeway divider. Because texting while driving had been made illegal just hours before, notsellingjeans was arrested. He heroically tried to use his one phone call to dictate the rest of the post to me, but I thought he was a solicitor and yelled "Stop bothering me!!!" before slamming down the phone. We do not know how this post ends, but remember folks: Don't text and drive. -Nico}
Editor's Note #2: Posting from Jail:
The A’s are one of the few teams in baseball who (seemingly) have the ability to eat money right now in a trade, if it allows them to get good young players they want.
That would seem to make them a good trading partner for the Dodgers, who have been extremely hesitant to add salary via trade in the last year.
I think the Dodgers would be hesitant to trade James McDonald right now, because he might end up being their fifth starter. And it doesn’t make much sense for them to acquire Holliday if it weakens their major league roster by a win or two in the process.
I think that, if the A’s traded Holliday to the Dodgers, my ideal realistic(?) return package would be Andrew Lambo, DeJesus, Jr., and Josh Lindblom. Those are their 3rd-5th-best prospects, all in the B range.
I realize there’s not a star in there, but those are probably three future useful major leaguers. Not a bad haul for one year of Holliday.
I also meant to mention in my previously unfinished diary that, if there’s an offseason market for Holliday, it would make sense that it’s in the the NL West. The Rockies might’ve felt that they couldn’t have traded him to a team within their division.
As for the other 24 teams, if they wanted him as bad as the A’s apparently did, they probably would’ve attempted to acquire him already before the A’s did.
Trading Holliday for the three above-mentioned Dodgers prospects would put the A's 40-man roster at 39.
Then I'd sign Giambi, let him thumb-wrestle with Cust over who has to play the field and who gets to DH, and call it an offseason.
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Surprsing
This could really help the Giants. They could even win their division if they sign him. I think its a good move, only problem that I see is that the Giants have 4/5 outfielders. The nice piece about this though is that if the Giants do sign Manny they can trade Winn, or Roberts and get a nice middle reliever. Double bonus for them at least.
The biggest issue I see is how Manny’s personality holds up. If he is second half Manny this is a good deal, if he is the Manny we know from Boston, not such a good deal.
I meant
the last couple months. I won’t take that.
I know, I was being a jerk
But… 2 months doesn’t erase the years of production and what is still ahead for him. Dude is a game changer and will be for at least a few more seasons.
I agree..
But Manny can also be the exact opposite. He can change your team around from 1st place to last. It can shift day to day, and to me, thats not worth 25 million dollars a year.
I don't think that's really true
He’ll always produce great numbers and does he “turn on a team” and go into sulk mode more than once per forever? He may not be the ideal teammate, but it’s hard to construct a scenario where he doesn’t massively help your team offensively.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Of course he helps.
But those last years in Boston aren’t 25 million dollars a year good, and one half of a season isn’t good enough, in my mind at least, to overcome all the troubles in Boston and the declining performance.
fair enough
25 million is a bunch to pay any player and it is hard to imagine a performance that is worth 25 million. That said, Fangraphs values last years Manny performance at 29 million, though only 5 million the season before.
None of Manny's years before that were valued at more than 20MM
2008 screams “anomaly” to me as his defense was much better than it usually is (horrible)
"And you just don't get it, you keep it copacetic..."
trade Roberts
/wipes away tear
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
Slow news day...
Couldnt we just say that they currently have the 4th and 5th most expensive OFers, rather than the whole ‘in history’ aggrandizing.
Sincerely,
Snark Snark
www.punditpolitics.com - Political IQ Tests, Pundit Blog, News and Opinion.
well, we *could* say that
but the difference is, your statement is incorrect, and mine wasn’t.
But hey, good contribution.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Jan 2, 2009 12:46 AM PST up reply actions
well I undermined myself,
but I think you still know what I meant. “most expensive 4th and 5th outfielders in history” versus something like “in MLB.” My contention was with ‘in history’ aspect because contracts are always getting more expensive and the meaning of the dollar is always changing, so it seems a little silly, but hey I nitpicked so I guess you have license to be a dick about it in response.
www.punditpolitics.com - Political IQ Tests, Pundit Blog, News and Opinion.
because you still don't seem to get the distinction
while you make a stink about ‘most expensive in history’ v. ‘most expensive in MLB’, you are still missing the point which nsj made.
You: “…they currently have the 4th and 5th most expensive OFers” = the 4th and 5th highest paid OF’s in MLB (history?)
NSJ: “…the most expensive 4th and 5th outfielders in history under contract.” = the highest paid outfielders that happen to be in the #4 and 5 slots in an organization’s outfield depth chart > not in an MLB team’s starting lineup.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on Jan 2, 2009 3:11 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Manny
Ha, watch Manny end up with the Yankees. I’m waiting. I think the Giants will be the favorites to win the National League West if they sign Ramirez.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jan 1, 2009 9:19 PM PST reply actions
Manny improves just about any team. Yankees or Giants would be well advised to pursue him.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 1, 2009 9:33 PM PST up reply actions
I Can't See It.
I can’t see Manny going to the Giants.
It’s just a thought process thing and it’s in my head.
But I just cant imagine him wearing #99 with Giants on the front of that jersey.
Steve Sage
24 isn't available
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 1, 2009 9:32 PM PST up reply actions
If they have the money...
he’s the guy to get.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
A's have the money
between revenue sharing, 2nd richest owners in mlb, short term payroll flexibility.
of course we wont see it happen
because the a's staff most likely isn't ready to compete
thus rendering manny and holliday kind of pointless. we (meaning me and anyone, not just you) could argue semantics about how the a’s would be a somewhat potent offense for the first time in a while with manny, but the pitching just isn’t all the way there yet, imo.
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
So the owners should lose money just because they have it?
You’re one of those who doesn’t realize sports ownership is a business I take it.
by thejd44 on Jan 2, 2009 11:23 PM PST up reply actions
they're saying over on the giants site here
that he can’t sign because they’ve already signed four FAs this offseason? i have no idea of this is true or not, and am waaay to hungover to try to find out.
on the surface, though, seems an ideal giants player – expensive aging outfielder, on espn a lot, declining defense, um, colourful club house reputation… watch sabean sign him to a four year deal
my friend who is a giants fan is very excited about this, though, so maybe it’s a good thing if he helps to sell some tickets
I have no solutions, just rejoindres
by alea iacta est on Jan 1, 2009 10:09 PM PST reply actions
Still hungover at 10pm?
Sounds like me a few weeks ago. It finally went away the next day.
99 MPH with as much control as a deflating balloon - CurveballKing on H-Rod
From what I remember from someone's posting somewhere in this blurry world we call the offseason blogosphere,
The limit to the number of FAs you can sign is actually a high number, and I don’t think four is close to the limit.
yeah I made a comment on that
I believe the system was reworked a couple of years ago when the strike almost happened. The way it works is that they take the number of free agents (this year something like 160) and divide that number by the amount of teams. That number equals the amount of Type A and B free agents each teams is allowed to sign. Now I"m not 100% sure what the division is, and if you can sign that many Type A AND B, or it’s a combined number.
I will look into it, but as far as I can recall, the Giants haven’t signed enough Type A’s to where they will not be allowed to sign Manny…
by stranahanahan on Jan 2, 2009 11:03 AM PST up reply actions
Per your request
Dodgers coming up top of the ninth.
Larsen coming out to pitch with his perfect game still intact.
Pretty cool hearing Larsen's and Berra's insight
How nobody in the dugout talked to Larsen. I know about the jinx but pretty cool to hear them tell it.
By any reasonable projection of Manny's hitting and fielding abilities at this point,
he’s about a 3.5 WAR player. Actually, probably worse than that. Since the Giants outfield is already fine (they project to get league-average production pretty much all around), it’s a minimal upgrade for what’s likely to be a ton of money.
It’s hard to overstate how bad a fielder Ramirez is.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
you can't judge a player like many on WAR
because he brings so much energy and life to a team if he is happy there. I guarentee you that Manny probably won the dodgers an extra 5-8 games last year and he only played there for 2 months. Yes, his defense is bad, but he is truly a special player.
"I think people in this state like BOTH teams," proclaims Nick Aliotti, the Ducks' defensive coordinator. "Except for our hard-core fans, I don't think most Duck fans would have been terribly upset to see Oregon State going to the Rose Bowl."
Another reason he needs to go.
by UOSportsDude on Jan 2, 2009 12:38 PM PST up reply actions
although it can be said the other way as well
an unhappy Manny could potentially lose you that many games.
I wouldn’t go as far as to say that Manny won them 5-8 games in half a season last year, cuz there’s no way one player’s excitement could win a team 10+ per season, but maybe it keeps guys young over the long season…
by stranahanahan on Jan 2, 2009 1:39 PM PST up reply actions
Holy crap
5-8 extra wins in half a season because of his extra excitement?
Where the hell can I get whatever Manny’s been having.
RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.
by walk off bunt on Jan 2, 2009 1:57 PM PST up reply actions
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on Jan 2, 2009 2:21 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
how did that show get cancelled
i still dont get it. it was so damn funny
"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"
It was intelligent and this is America
Did you have any other questions?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
where's the gspot?
or maybe i should find a better place to ask that
"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"
It's next to your wallet
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
"I'll be your wingman,
even if it means taking a chubby, I’ll suck it up"
go and buy the dvd’s and if enough excitement can be built up, they might just make that movie….
Ellis for President
Actually it IS possible to overstate Ramirez' allegedly horrendous fielding
He’s no worse than the Dunn, Burrell types, once a proper park adjustment for him is done.
The BIS people, once they properly adjusted his numbers, had him as a usual bad fielding OF, ie around 10-15 runs below average. The UZR stats that are based on STATS data, that is not the fangraphs UZR data which is based on BIS data, had Manny at around 10-15 runs below average on the road the previous 3 seasons.
It is actually pretty easy to overstate how bad a fielder Ramirez is. Many many fans, do so. This is especially the case among stat head fans.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
+1
Makes sense to me. There’s gotta be a limitation to how bad a left fielder can be. It’s not like difficult-to-field balls are being hit there five times a game.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Jan 2, 2009 6:14 PM PST up reply actions
There's an interesting on BBTF right now on Manny's D
CHONE’s system, which is a pseduo PBP system similar to Dan Fox’ SFR, has Manny at around average. And according to Tango, the RS / Green Monster effect is responsible for, on average, a discrepancy of around 12 plays, 9-10 runs, over a full season.
Also, green monster and park adjustment aside, there’s still the unresolved issue of (sometimes huge) discrepancies between BIS and STATS data.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
very good info, thanks rfloh
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Jan 2, 2009 7:06 PM PST up reply actions
Wait, 12 plays equates to 10 runs?
That doesn’t seem right. I wouldn’t think a play would be worth more than half a run.
by thejd44 on Jan 2, 2009 11:25 PM PST up reply actions
It depends upon whether Manny's missing the ball, or cuttting off a throw from CF
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Jan 3, 2009 7:13 AM PST up reply actions
Very roughly, a run is play is worth about 0.7-0.8 runs
This is a rough estimate for all the positions. Tango has a play at 0.7, Dewan at 0.8. Or Dewan has it at 0.8, Tango at 0.7.
Obviously, how much a play is worth depends on the position.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
Oh yeah, forgot
Dial also has a play at roughly that too.
He’s done pretty extensive work on the run values for plays at each position.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
So are you saying that the Giants sign Manny and then the A' trade Holliday to the Dodgers for
3B, SS and Pitching prospects?
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
I think that's exactly what he was saying
He just didn’t finish the thought.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Jan 1, 2009 11:23 PM PST up reply actions
I love helping people finish their thoughts
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
Those prospects would be
James McDonald, RHP, Grade B+
Ivan DeJesus, Jr, SS, Grade B
Austin Gallagher, 3B, Grade C+
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
The thing is the Dodgers
don’t appear to be the easiest team to deal with, especially since Colletti got in there. I wouldn’t count on the Dodgers giving the A’s anything they need.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Jan 1, 2009 11:41 PM PST reply actions
damn computer
I was trying to say, remember the “favors” that Beane has done for Colletti with the Loaiza dump and getting Bradley off his hands, who had run himself out of LA.
I dunno what kind of allegiance Colletti has or if he will ever throw a bone back to Beane, but if this is the trade we want to make now is the time to make the call reminding Colletti what this organization has done for him.
If we were to trade Holliday I would really try to get Kemp or Kershaw out of the deal, though…
by stranahanahan on Jan 2, 2009 11:07 AM PST up reply actions
no chance
on kemp or kershaw
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
if they seemed to listen on Cano offers for Kemp
than why wouldn’t they be willing to flip him for a serious jolt into their lineup.
And i’m not saying it’s going to happen, but Beane holds all the cards here, if Colletti comes a callin, than Beane should start negotiations with “give me one of Kemp or Kershaw and we’ll talk…”
by stranahanahan on Jan 2, 2009 1:41 PM PST up reply actions
i agree with beane starting talks with that
but talks involving those guys would end right there.
i also don’t believe that they would trade either of them for robinson “the enigma” cano.
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
Why would you start talks with that when the talks would then end right there?
Sounds pointless.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 2, 2009 5:46 PM PST up reply actions
maybe i didn't clarify
i’m saying if beane opened up the talks asking for kershaw/kemp, the dodgers would, in all likelihood, say no. doesn’t mean he shouldn’t try, but the answer is probably no. one season of matt holliday doesn’t equal either of those players to me.
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
Ah the offer Victor for Kazmir strategy....
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 2, 2009 7:21 PM PST up reply actions
Right, because the Loaiza dump
was really so much of a favour to the Dodgers.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
whoa, flip that WPA list
at fangraphs, and check out all the A’s in the negative top 30…
Ellis for President
Hmmm
Wow, what is it— the fog, or the grog left over from NY Eve? Seems like pretty woozy musings on highly unlikelies to me. Since when do the Giants have that kind of $$ available? Since when does any team except the New Yorks? And since when does Manny have “minimal upgrade” “hitting abilities”? Of course his defense is almost funny, but he sure looked like he had a lot of spank left in his stick a few months ago to me. Sure looked like, um, a great (if not legendary) hitter to me, but then maybe I’m drinkin the wrong vintage tonite. Anyway, the website cited for this even states: “Henry Schulman of the San Francisco Chronicle is skeptical about this rumor.”
No offense, but can you read?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Jan 2, 2009 10:42 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Like starting a comment about something that you don't love...
by saying, “I love how…”.
"I'm going to take a camera crew and march into Billy Beane's office and demand to know why instituting his newfangled cost-saving measures means that the run manufacturing plant had to get shut down." FJM
Please use the flagging function for CGVs
I flagged the comment, meaning that if a non-mod flags it only one more moderator has to agree in order for it to be followed up on. Asking “can you read?” is not acceptable on AN. Though in fairness, the people most offended will never read it.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Jan 2, 2009 2:49 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
+1 (for using the Reply button)
"I'm going to take a camera crew and march into Billy Beane's office and demand to know why instituting his newfangled cost-saving measures means that the run manufacturing plant had to get shut down." FJM
What if the person has demonstrated that they have likely not read?
by thejd44 on Jan 2, 2009 11:28 PM PST up reply actions
I agree that it was a fair question given the context, so I rec’d it.
There’s a good reason to prevent threads from becoming flame wars, but there’s no need to prevent people from pointing out obvious stupidity/trolls.
If you think someone is a troll you can flag the comment,
and that user may be sanctioned or even banned. But you can’t personally insult other users on AN, period. The CGs are clear.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
The Giants aren't small market
And despite the propaganda, not every team outside of NYC is poor or bankrupt or has their owner going through a divorce.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
Yay!
I love anti-whining posts!
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 2, 2009 7:22 PM PST up reply actions
This wasn't even supposed to be posted...
I had started writing it for tomorrow, decided halfway through that it wasn’t really that substantive, and abandoned it. (That’s why it oddly alludes to Holliday and never actually discusses him).
Feel free to delete it or top-post it at your whim. I apologize for the error.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Jan 2, 2009 12:49 AM PST reply actions
best Holliday post ever
this is one of the few Holliday posts that hasn’t made some horrible argument and pissed me off.
rec’d
Save Rajai Davis
So it's one of those
“Did I say that out loud” moments?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
It turns out some band has the right to it.
So I’m calling it “Use Your Allusion.”
99 MPH with as much control as a deflating balloon - CurveballKing on H-Rod
I say trade Holliday to Boston
They can put Drew at 1B or something.
www.punditpolitics.com - Political IQ Tests, Pundit Blog, News and Opinion.
or they just stik with what they have
and sign holliday next offseason
by Asfan4ever723 on Jan 2, 2009 8:40 AM PST up reply actions
Kevin Youkilis wonders why you forgot about him.
by thejd44 on Jan 2, 2009 11:29 PM PST up reply actions
Maybe he's coming to Oakland in the trade.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 3, 2009 12:26 AM PST up reply actions
Dodgers are cheap
They still think someone wants Andrew Jones. They would want the A’s to take Jones or Pierre in a trade which is no way for the A’s. Holiday is more valuable at allstar break. The AL east will have 1 of the teams that would slvage their prospects for a allstar LFer. Don’t forget the Giants may even trade a Cain for a Holiday if it means playoffs.
id be willing to eat jones' contract for his remaining one season if it meant we got Kershaw or Kemp +
"I think people in this state like BOTH teams," proclaims Nick Aliotti, the Ducks' defensive coordinator. "Except for our hard-core fans, I don't think most Duck fans would have been terribly upset to see Oregon State going to the Rose Bowl."
Another reason he needs to go.
by UOSportsDude on Jan 2, 2009 12:43 PM PST up reply actions
sure
but the dodgers would just as soon keep jones for the one season and not get rid of their two future studs
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
Since there is some nit-picking on this thread
I turn to Athletics Nation and the Oakland A’s main page on mlb.com for my “updated” news on everything A’s.
So, when I saw a new article by Michael Urban on the mlb.com site, I was excited! Hey, an article about the A’s in 2009, an overview as to where we are and where we might be heading.
Good article, until I hit these two paragraphs and just become incensed.
Grading on a curve: On a scale of one to 10, the A’s get a five for their offseason to date. But Beane likely isn’t done, and if he hits one or two of his free-agent targets — lefty Randy Johnson and first baseman Jason Giambi would be nice fits under the circumstances — that number would be pushed quite a bit higher. Holliday immediately improves the offense, which was terrible in 2008, but the rotation needs some veteran help in a big way.
I thought, “well, maybe it was just a little oversight, read on.”
Beane also has said he’d consider adding a front-of-the-rotation starter, and Johnson is a Bay Area native who could help mentor young lefties such as Eveland, Anderson, Gio Gonzalez, Dallas Braden and Josh Outman.
Ugh.
When was RJ signed? A week ago?
This is a disappointing start to the A’s mlb.com coverage. This was obviously written weeks ago and submitted. Ah, for a league that is focusing on updated news of their product (see lauch of MLB.TV yesterday) you would think that someone could have jumped in and edit this article. Disappointing.
"RIP: UserID: 553"
i just dont know how you can not know about RJ getting signed
its not like its his JOB to cover baseball or anything
"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"
He probably had a little too much to drink the night before.
In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!
Anybody remeber the "bulging dick" in the side of Loaiza's neck a few years back?
Classic Urban hitting the cocktail hour hard………trust me, I have it on good authority.
do you mean bulging disk?
I would really be interesting to hear the story:
“How Estaban Loaiza got a bulging dick in the side of his neck” (part one).
by stranahanahan on Jan 2, 2009 8:52 PM PST up reply actions
I took one for the team and googled "bulging dick in his neck"...
And it looks like it may be a somewhat common ailment.
On a separate note, I seem to have joined a rather peculiar internet target market.
"I'm going to take a camera crew and march into Billy Beane's office and demand to know why instituting his newfangled cost-saving measures means that the run manufacturing plant had to get shut down." FJM
Cocktail hour?
Was that intentional or are you getting ahead of yourself.
by LowcountryJoe on Jan 2, 2009 10:54 PM PST up reply actions
Barkley
just got arrested for suspicion of DUI…
by stranahanahan on Jan 3, 2009 12:48 AM PST up reply actions
Urban's a pretty poor writer
It’s pretty sad, but I stopped reading his A’s “coverage” about a year ago. He’s just not good at his job.
it just appears that he isn't doing sufficient research
some of the mailbag answers he gives are just way out there.
the most recent being that right when the offseason started he basically said there’s no chance that Giambi would join the A’s:
What are the chances of Jason Giambi coming back to Oakland as a free agent?
—James R., Richmond, Calif.
About the same as Rickey Henderson batting leadoff for the A’s next year. About the same as Vince Cotroneo reporting to Spring Training next season with an Afro. About the same as Billy Beane ever saying, “You know what? That was a bad trade I made.” No chance.
And suddenly, in November, lo and behold:
Regarding Giambi, I don’t think there’s any question he’d be an upgrade at first base, either, and the commitment to sign him surely won’t be nearly as extensive as it would have been to get Furcal, in years or dollars. I still think Giambi is likely to happen. The only way it won’t is if another team offers him silly money and three guaranteed years.
What a bandwagon loving idiot. Just stick to your guns, don’t go and pretend that you knew it all along…
by stranahanahan on Jan 3, 2009 10:30 AM PST up reply actions
See I thought it was the toaster
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I hope notsellingjeans wasn't hurt in the car accident
but that update post was freakin hilarious!
You have to include smiley faces - Poppy
;- ) :- ) :-O : -> : -] : -}
on the other hand...
I don’t know about this influx of gonzo journalism to AN…
the next thing you know, we’ll be reading about Bob Geren’s Ibogaine habit…
"I have more questions after these."-WaddellCanseco
by Gaijin_Suketto on Jan 2, 2009 3:23 PM PST up reply actions
I guess the Giants might be a good place for Manny.
Even though at his age he is more suited to an American league team. I would love to see him as a Giant because he was arguably the best hitter in baseball last year and I don’t want to see the A’s face him on a regular basis. Worse case scenario would be for the Halos to sign him.
That being said..he’s a spoiled brat and it is interesting that noone seems ready to throw him the kind of money he is asking for. It was also very clear that there were times when he simply laid down on his team, and didn’t play when he didn’t feel like it. I love the one incident where he said he couldn’t play because he knee was sore – but when they took him to get an MRI, he couldn’t remember which knee it was. If he would do that on a team that is a serious world series contender…it’s a scary thought to wonder how he would act playing on a team like the Giants. I personally would never trust him as a player after that stunt but of course if the A’s wanted to sign him…I’d be all for it. Sad isn’t it?
No!
Giants + Manny Ramirez = bad.
Giants + Emil Brown = good.
Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!
by Monday Fan on Jan 2, 2009 1:11 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Sadly, I don't even Sabean would be that stupid
"However, at Elias, I think they keep track of the amount of sunflower seeds spit in a dugout each night." - Brad Ziegler, 8/7/08
even THINK
"However, at Elias, I think they keep track of the amount of sunflower seeds spit in a dugout each night." - Brad Ziegler, 8/7/08
You mean only Beane would be?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 2, 2009 5:04 PM PST up reply actions
Or he doesn't that Sabean would even think.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
andruw jones
is he that bad on a 1 yr deal?
Heyman_jon
Dodgers rework deal, Andruw likely gone
The Los Angeles Dodgers and Andruw Jones have agreed to rework his contract to save the team $12 million off its 2009 payroll, SI.com has learned. The deal likely will lead to Jones playing elsewhere next year.
The Los Angeles Times reported Friday that the sides were working on such an arranagement.
With Jones agreeing to defer more than half his $20 million salary to aid the team, it stands to reason that the team will agree to part ways with him at some point. Jones expressed a desire to the Dodgers that he’d like to play elsewhere in 2009.
He was certainly that bad last year
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 2, 2009 5:05 PM PST up reply actions
i just found an eric chavez shirt for SIX DOLLARS
in the salvation army store up the road.
i didn’t know whether to be sad that someone has given up on him, or happy because i now have an eric chavez t shirt.
take that, credit crunch!
I have no solutions, just rejoindres
by alea iacta est on Jan 2, 2009 3:12 PM PST reply actions
And you are allowed to wear it
for 60 out of every 162 days!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
yeah, oddly enough
there are rips on both of the shoulders
I have no solutions, just rejoindres
by alea iacta est on Jan 2, 2009 3:30 PM PST up reply actions
Once again
you overpaid.
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
one year, six dollars
is overpaying?
i’m hoping for a hometown discount next year too
I have no solutions, just rejoindres
by alea iacta est on Jan 2, 2009 4:28 PM PST up reply actions
Andruw Jones
Is he the next Big Hurt reclamation project? If the Dodgers pick up all of his salary, would he be better in CF then Sweeney? I think so. I bet he would have a big bounce back year. Now if we could get a SS and or 3rd baseman from the Dodgers for “helping them” with their problem, wouldn’t that be incredible!
Sweeney in CF and Jones in Right?
Spelling Buck, or would it be LF? Or are you saying he’s not worth it at all?
by A'sfansince1970 on Jan 2, 2009 3:39 PM PST up reply actions
I wouldn't hate him on an NRI
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 2, 2009 5:05 PM PST up reply actions
Rubin Sierra did it. Why not Andruw?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 2, 2009 7:24 PM PST up reply actions
a lot of people did something or the other.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
Exactly
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 2, 2009 10:08 PM PST up reply actions
Isn't his defense still outstanding?
Guys got how many gold gloves?
I know that;s not the best estimate for good defense, but from everything I recall, his instincts and ability to get to about any ball are very very good…
I agree
I think last year and his last year in Atlanta were unhappy Andruw. I think in the incredibly fun A’s clubhouse, he returns to form. I mean, come on, he’s Andruw Jones!
by A'sfansince1970 on Jan 2, 2009 3:41 PM PST up reply actions
your last sentence is the exact reason noone wants him
hes andruw “ops of .505 for 15 million dollars” jones
"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"
No Jones no way
Jones only had 1 allstar year the other years he was mostly average offense wise. His power surge was most likely due to steroids that is why the big weight gain after steroid testing took place.
HOW DARE YUU MAKE ACKEWZATIONS
LIKE THAT WITHOUT GIVEING PROOF?222
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
+1
I knew I spelled his name currectly!
by A'sfansince1970 on Jan 2, 2009 3:43 PM PST up reply actions
You talk about a high reward possibility
You don’t get too many cracks at players with Andruw’s credentials.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Are we all just dreaming
or do you think this is a possibility? This is fun!
by A'sfansince1970 on Jan 2, 2009 3:44 PM PST up reply actions
It's riskier than it appears in that he has gotten
out of shape and is two years removed from being successful, but he has about the same risk/reward profile as Frank Thomas did in 2006 and that worked out rather nicely.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I agree.
In 2007 he hit 26 home runs and had 94 rbis. One bad year last year is no way to judge him. I hope the Dodgers get Manny!
by A'sfansince1970 on Jan 2, 2009 4:10 PM PST up reply actions
i disagree
frank thomas cost us basically nothing. im assuming that jones would cost quite a bit.
"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"
Well if he were an avenue to acquire Hu -
say, take Jones and get Hu in exchange for salary, then you’re really paying for a young SS and taking a flier on Jones’ resurgence. Not that different from paying a lot for Furcal, and assuming his injury risk in order to solve SS if he’s healthy.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
well yes i would go for that
but jones all by himself? no thank you
"My group runs some frogloks down the hall to finish them off and POP! RASTER! If there was a way to scream louder than caps in EQ I was doing it. Man I am straight panicking because I know I have NO CHANCE soloing and the party has run off. I'm in my hotel room; it's like 5am, and I am straight hollering, in EQ and in real life. Bottom line is the group comes back, heals me, and kills Raster! WOOT!" -Curt Schilling on his favorite memories in the video game "EverQuest"
I don't think Beane would either
He could be very good or very bad and he will definitely be expensive. Sweeney, Buck, and Cunningham could be very good or very bad and will definitely be cheap.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
It doesn't look like Colletti is going to trade Jones with a prospect
He may just defer some of the salary with interest and make Jones a FA. That makes the most sense from the Dodger side.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 2, 2009 5:07 PM PST up reply actions
I'm now hearing word they may just dump him
in which case he would be cheap.
As in league minimum cheap.
by stranahanahan on Jan 2, 2009 8:53 PM PST up reply actions
Right. I'd take him at that price.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 3, 2009 12:28 AM PST up reply actions
No Hu, no way
Hu isn’t worth what the Dodgers think they can get for him.
by stranahanahan on Jan 2, 2009 4:59 PM PST up reply actions
I'm thinking the opposite,
that Hu’s stock is way down from his terrible season and the known fact that he is extraneous now to the Dodgers – but that in fact he is a plus defensive SS who can, with good eyes, give you a decent BA and SLG to go with a putrid OBP (maybe .280/.310/.400). A solid prospect, from no worse than Simmons to no better than Braden, for Hu seems like a good deal for both sides. Maybe Outman?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
To me Simmons is no better or worse than Braden
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 2, 2009 5:07 PM PST up reply actions
Well he's unproven, whereas Braden has had
some major league success; Simmons has never even gotten to AAA.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Sure, Simmons is only a potential Braden.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 2, 2009 5:47 PM PST up reply actions
Maybe - what I've heard about Simmons
is that his ceiling is around a #3 and that’s what it looks like for Braden. It seems both project as around #4 starter material, with only a slightly higher ceiling due to limited stuff.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I don't see the higher ceiling for Simmons. What makes you
say his is higher than Braden?
I see Simmons’s ceiling as a league average starter in his prime — maybe 4 years or something. Braden the same. What do you see?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 2, 2009 7:26 PM PST up reply actions
All indications are that Simmons will give up hits,
probably more than one per inning in the bigs. If he keeps his walks way down, he could become…Carlos Silva, who was actually a good pitcher for a short stretch and a bad pitcher for a longer one.
I haven’t seen any scouting report that seemed to think he was poised to become better than a #3 starter, and a #4 innings eater seems more likely.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Silva in his age 20 and 21 seasons struck out only
5.4 and 4.2 per 9 IP in A and A+, whereas Simmons has a 7.8 in AA at those ages.
His results may be about like Silva’s but he’s a better prospect by far than Silva was at the same age.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 2, 2009 7:49 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah I just meant best major league comp
I guess Simmons’ upside is Blanton, who was a decent #2 starter for a while, probably really a strong #3. His floor is probably Josh Towers.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Chone projects Blanton as a good #2 next
year as well.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 2, 2009 8:45 PM PST up reply actions
He certainly finished strong
I’ve always seen him as a 2-/3+.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I don't know
Did Andruw shed some of that extra poundage in the off-season? Because he can’t carry the extra weight on a 6’1 frame….Frank was 6’5 and was always BIG.
"RIP: UserID: 553"
I don't think he's the same profile as Thomas was.
Hurt was, well, hurt.
Jones was, well, fat… and sucked.
Obviously their situations are not identical
But in terms of being once a premier player, currently “maybe done” with physical question marks – there are striking similarities. Once difference is that Thomas had the far better career overall up to the point of question.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
From an offensive standpoint and longevity, sure
But with defense considered, Jones was [repeat, was] an incredible talent patroling CF. And could also do damge with the bat. Let’s not forget that he [jones] is also something like five years younger than was Thomas when Thomas signed with Oakland. Granted, Jones looks washed up but five additional years of playing time would make Jones’s numbers probably look much closer to Thomas’s numbers if Jones could get back on track.
by LowcountryJoe on Jan 2, 2009 11:08 PM PST up reply actions
Sure -- but with Thomas you could point at a reason for his decline
He got hurt.
Jones didn’t suffer any injury, he just inexplicably got WAY worse at hitting.
I expect the Giants to give him a 5 year deal.
he has knee issues and got fat
but apparently has been working had this offseason
by Asfan4ever723 on Jan 3, 2009 10:11 AM PST up reply actions
that’s what every athlete says after they’ve begun their decline.
Well, everyone other than Sidney Ponson.
We don't really have that much pitching depth. We don't really have that much pitching depth. FOR GOD SAKE, VERUCA, DON'T GO FAKE TRADING JONATHAN SANCHEZ. We don't really have that much pitching depth
An A's/Dodgers trade, if Manny signs with the Giants:
The A’s are one of the few teams in baseball who (seemingly) have the ability to eat money right now in a trade, if it allows them to get good young players they want.
That would seem to make them a good trading partner for the Dodgers, who have been extremely hesitant to add salary via trade in the last year.
I think the Dodgers would be hesitant to trade James McDonald right now, because he might end up being their fifth starter. And it doesn’t make much sense for them to acquire Holliday if it weakens their major league roster by a win or two in the process.
I think that, if the A’s traded Holliday to the Dodgers, my ideal realistic(?) return package would be Andrew Lambo, DeJesus, Jr., and Josh Lindblom. Those are their 3rd-5th-best prospects, all in the B range.
I realize there’s not a star in there, but those are probably three future useful major leaguers. Not a bad haul for one year of Holliday.
I also meant to mention in my previously unfinished diary that, if there’s an offseason market for Holliday, it would make sense that it’s in the the NL West. The Rockies might’ve felt that they couldn’t have traded him to a team within their division.
As for the other 24 teams, if they wanted him as bad as the A’s apparently did, they probably would’ve attempted to acquire him already before the A’s did.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
I was thinking that if the Giants sign Manny,
they might be looking to deal a CFer (Winn, Rowand). Of course Winn has limited power and is getting to his mid-30s and Rowand has his share of holes in his game relative to his contract amount, but either would improve the team going forward. Unfortunately, the A’s don’t really have what the Giants need, which is up the middle help, not great young pitching.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'm as guilty as everyone
but it seems like we’re really fishing right now. We are just trying to come up with anything to help the offense right now, even if it’s at a position that is logjammed already. Of course, the OF could use a guy who is clearly major league ready, but unless it is someone special, we shouldn’t even be thinking about helping the OF. Unless someone strikes Beane with a great trade or someone could be had for cheap, the focus right now should be shifted to SS, 3B and immediate answers for the rotation.
by stranahanahan on Jan 2, 2009 8:58 PM PST up reply actions
I guess I figure if they're talking to Abreu and G. Anderson,
why not go out instead and get an OFer who is, you know…not 53 and declining?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
we might not know if that's less than they gave up for 8 years or more
Are six years each of Lambo, Lindblom, and Dejesus more valuable than Street (2), Smith (5), and Gonzalez(6)?
We wouldn’t know until the three Dodgers prospects had come of age and either busted or blossomed.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Jan 2, 2009 6:30 PM PST up reply actions
Why Lindblom rather than Gordon?
I believe in White’s eye for tools, and he likes Gordon….unless that’s just what he wants us to think…
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 2, 2009 7:27 PM PST up reply actions
maybe only Lindblom and DeJesus or Hu...
If you think Lambo is unattainable.
But I want at least Lindblom (RP) and DeJesus. Those are my two favorite should-be-attainable players in that system, and both would fill a role for us.
You can always use another cost-controlled reliever.
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Jan 2, 2009 6:19 PM PST up reply actions
How about replacing Lambo with Austin Gallagher. Right now he is a C+ and # 9 in their system but he has a lot of upside.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
Ya, I don't see the greatness of Lambo. These no field bat prospects seem way
too common and therefore not as valuable as guys who can play IF. It really shows on the Sickels site Community List.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 2, 2009 7:29 PM PST up reply actions
I'm not sure I'm sold on your taste in prospects
Have fun in county.
The monster at the end of this blog.
the least you could've done was accepted my collect call
Now I’m stuck here, and it appears I wasted my one phone call.
I hoped for more from an “___ing ray of sunshine”. :)
Batting 4th for the 2014 San Jose A's: 26-year-old RF Justin Upton, in the 1st season of a nine year, $250M deal.
by notsellingjeans on Jan 2, 2009 7:10 PM PST up reply actions
If you aren't adult enough to drop an F-bomb while in lock-up...
Don’t worry, I’m sure someone will help make a man out of you soon.
The monster at the end of this blog.
Or more likely a woman
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Or knottingjeans cell
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
We're likely to get better for Holliday
in a mid-season, 3 month rental from a team desperate to make the post season.
In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!
LaRoche, Moss and Morris?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 2, 2009 7:30 PM PST up reply actions
The only talk about Holliday should be about keeping him and signing him to an extension.
Trading Holliday for Andrew Lambo, DeJesus, Jr., and Josh Lindblom would be tragically horrible. We need to win now, as well as in three or eight years or whatever. We’re two solid starting pitchers and a first baseman away from being highly competetive now. Holliday is a great star to build around.
Sure, but he has to want to stay.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 2, 2009 10:09 PM PST up reply actions
The likelihood of signing Holliday longterm is miniscule.
Look at the Yankees outfield right now. Holliday is who they’ll want. And if you’ve been awake this offseason, you’ve seen that they’ve outbid other teams by millions and millions of dollars. Hell, they even outbid themselves in the Sabbathia deal.
Say the A’s offered Holliday a Texeira like contract. Hell, say they offered the same value. That’s when the Yankees call Boras and add $15MM to the total contract. It’s ridiculous, but unless the A’s are competeing next year, there is no point whatsoever to keep him all season.
Then why not add $20M?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 3, 2009 3:55 AM PST up reply actions
they actually were outbid
the Nationals bid about $5 MM more, and would have upped their offer if Boras gave them a chance.
If Holliday wants to go to the Yankees, Boras will make it happen. But if he goes for top dollar, don’t immediately assume the Yankees will be the one to bid the highest…
by stranahanahan on Jan 3, 2009 9:08 AM PST up reply actions
I agree about keeping Holliday
He is someone to build around……but there are just so many variables right now, I’m not gonna get attached to the idea of him being here for more than one year…..if that.
:(
So, to go on a tangent -- I don't think I have enough to create a whole new fanpost with this
Since Cleveland picked up DeRosa, why not kick the tires and see if one of Peralta or Cabrera are now available?
I think Peralta would be a great target, one I've been thinking about lately
He’s a mediocre enough defensive SS that his price tag won’t be too high (like Asdrubal’s) but his hitting is solid enough to really help the A’s, and he would be a great candidate for a switch over to 3B – something the A’s may need sooner and/or will certainly need later. And his contract is pretty reasonable.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Honestly I'd take either.
Peralta is a slight defensive hit and a solid upgrade with the bat
Cabrera is a defensive whiz and has hit better than league average (OPS) every level of the minors he’s been at.
I'd want something like Anderson, Cardenas and Leon if I were the Indians.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 2, 2009 10:12 PM PST up reply actions
For Peralta?
There’s no way Peralta would be worth Anderson straight up, let alone adding in Cardenas and Leon.
Why would they trade him then?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 2, 2009 11:06 PM PST up reply actions
I'm not saying he's worthless.
But he’s not worth a top 10 prospect PLUS another couple high ceiling guys.
Can you suggest something that would make sense for both sides, keeping in
mind that the Indians think they’re a contender and he’s their most important player besides Sizemore, and maybe Lee?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 3, 2009 12:30 AM PST up reply actions
Honestly? Not really.
I’m not that big on dreaming up trade schemes, and I’ve no idea what Shapiro thinks Cleveland needs to contend.
That said, they did pick up DeRosa for next to nothing and they’re not going to pay that salary for a utility player. I have a hard time thinking that they’re going to continue to run Cabrera out at second base, that would be a waste of his defensive skills at SS. That leaves Peralta as the odd man out, but he’s also got value in a trade, he’s not that bad defensively, and he’s got a relatively affordable contract.
Problem is I’m not sure what they need — it would be easy to brainstorm a 3 way deal with Peavy going to Cleveland, Peralta going to Oakland, and prospects going to San Diego, but it’s probably not very likely I’ve found that a lot of the time whatever trade proposals are thought out generally favor the team of the person suggesting the deal.
Gio and Outman would be a good haul for Cleveland,
both for now and for the future. And if the A’s signed a veteran starter to solidify 2009, it seems like it would also be a good for Oakland for now and for the future.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Maybe but IF seem more rare than pitching prospects these days
Shapiro has never traded a position player for pitchers AFAICR. He seems to prefer getting pitchers more cheaply.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 3, 2009 4:55 PM PST up reply actions
I think good pitching prospects are always
at a premium. If Peralta has no place in Cleveland’s middle infield, which I believe is the case, and if the Tribe has multiple 3B possibilities nearing major league ready (more iffy, as they all have some questions surrounding their glove), they should be so lucky as to get two young pitchers of Gio/Outman’s ilk.
Another possible target for them would be Braden, who has had more success in the big leagues, or Eveland. Sans CC and Byrd, if they are to contend in 2009 Cleveland does need a stronger rotation.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I'd give up Braden for Peralta before I did Gio and Outman
I mean, duh, but if Cleveland is looking for a guy with MLB experience instead of prospects or something, I’d JUMP at the chance to make that deal.
It wouldn't be Braden alone, though
Maybe two of those three guys.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Braden and Outman maybe
But I’d have to have a guarantee that Ben Sheets is signed (and healthy!) as the second in a series of moves. Obviously Peralta helps the SS position for the next 3 years or so, but Gio/Outman are both pretty likely to get a good chunk of innings in 2009, hence the Sheets signing to “replace” the innings from those 2.
It seems like if the A's could trade for a bat,
they could afford to sign a more expensive FA like Sheets (2/30?) and call it a contending 2009 team. Say Braden and Outman went for Peralta. You could start Barton at 1B, figure Chavez, Ellis, and Barton gave you a lot of good defense, and run with Peralta at SS:
Buck
Cust
Holliday
Chavez
Peralta
Sweeney
Suzuki
Barton
Ellis
Duke, Sheets, Gallagher, Eveland, Gio
I’d say that team is favored to win the AL West in 2009.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I agree
Let’s just hope to see a scenario similar to that…
wow, that took me a long time to type…
I should not be interneting right now
by stranahanahan on Jan 3, 2009 10:37 PM PST up reply actions
Exactly.
But, take that same team and remove Sheets, and all of a sudden the rotation looks a LOT worse since the 5th starter is going to be a guy like Jerome Williams or one of Simmons/Mazzaro assuming they’re even ready.
At least with Braden you know you’re getting a reasonable back of the rotation guy, and Outman probably has the potential to be slightly better than that as soon as next year. Taking them both out of the 2009 equation makes it imperative to sign a FA starter.
Hmm...
… not sure if I’m sold on that being the favored team to win the AL West in 2009.
On a different note… lets not ever confuse Cust for being a number 2 hitter in any line-up. Sweeney is ideal for that spot as he can get the bat on the ball on many different pitch counts and move runners over or let them steal plus won’t clog up the bases in front of the speedy Holliday. Cust strike’s out way too much to ever be a number two hitter. He’s much better suited as a five or six spot guy.
See I think Cust works better
at #2 than at #5 or #6. I’d sooner have him getting on base .375 of the time ahead of Holliday and Chavez, and not advancing enough runners in the process, than batting .240 with RISP, and walking in front of poorer hitters, which is what you can expect if he hits #5 or #6.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Interesting point of view
…but I would say you take all options off the table with Cust batting second. He has no bat control so you take away the sacrifice, hit and run and bunt. Plus he’s basically a station to station runner so you’re not getting the most from extra base hits and gappers in the outfield from your three and four hitters.
How about we hit him fifth in front of a (hopefully healthy) Chavez and behind a hopefully aquired power hitting first baseman (say, Giambi)?
What I would say is that you just
don’t bunt or hit and run with that part of the order. You play your small ball at the bottom of the order with hitters who can’t help you as many other ways, and you go for high OBP and high slugging with your 2-5 guys.
The problem with batting Cust fifth is that he walk constantly be walking in front of your #6/#7 hitters instead of your #3/#4 hitters.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
I agree we want a high obp guy batting second.
Preferably that guy also needs to be able to handle the bat better and make contact more often, have a higher batting average, and have more speed on the bases. Sweeney seems to fit that role better than Cust.
You could go with Buck and Sweeney
in the 1-2 spots. But while you’ll get more ability to play “Scioscia ball” you’ll have lower OBP guys batting ahead of Holliday and Chavez, while seeing Cust batting more with RISP and worse hitters coming up behind him – and for all his attributes, Cust is a .240 hitter.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
This is a guy who
once picked the lineup out of a hat (I was at that game). Only the fact that he drank like a fish, and kicked dirt on people he was mad at, kept him in good standing with me.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
A brilliant baseball man he was.
Drinking, fighting, and winning. The way A’s baseball should be.
Yeah, none of this new age
“Oh you have to come out of the game because you’ve already pitched 13 innings” nonsense.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
who's on the jones bandwagon?
1 yr deal..pickup 5mill..maybe get hu also in the deal…dodgers rather than release jones and get nothing, i’m sure A’s can entice them in some pitching
Dodgers Rework Andruw Jones Deal
By Drew Silva [January 2 at 7:51pm CST]
FRIDAY, 7:51pm: Ken Gurnick of MLB.com reports that the Major League Player’s Association has approved the contract agreement, which will defer Jones’ remaining salary. According to an industry source, Jones will either be traded or released before the start of spring training and perhaps sometime this month.
Sure for an NRI
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Jan 2, 2009 11:05 PM PST up reply actions
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