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Around SBN: NFL Safety Ryan Clark's Motivational Workout

Sink Fast, Or Sink Fast

Unfortunately, in this stretch devoted to “finding out what these young guys can do,” a lot of what we’ve learned is what many of them cannot do: We have learned that Dan Meyer simply does not have what it takes to get big league hitters out, that Gio Gonzalez is not yet ready for prime time, that Eric Patterson is not an accomplished second baseman, and so on.

It’s not all gloom and doom, though, as many of the 2008 disappointments – namely Daric Barton, Sean Gallagher, Gio Gonzalez, and recently Carlos Gonzalez – have in common that they are all exactly 22 years of age. And if you recall how Dallas Braden looked his first go-around and how he has looked lately, you see how quickly things can change, and how there is simply no substitute for experience and maturity.

As a result, I’m pretty philosophical about the struggles many of these guys are having, and despite the ghastly statistics my mantra is generally “22” rather than “GAAAK!!!! We’re building around crap!!!!” For example, I really do think Carlos Gonzalez will be fine, that Gallagher is far better than he has shown, that Suzuki is more for real than Gio isn’t, and so on.

However, I do have one big concern with the group of young starting pitchers and that is the lack of sink on their fastball. This was a concern I had about Blanton, who never developed much movement at all on his fastball – and as a pitcher who gave up a lot of hits I felt it was a real hindrance not to have a DP pitch in his arsenal. Unless you have a high-octane fastball (Gallagher), an exceptional cutter (Duchscherer), or just great movement in general (Eveland), the lack of ability to sink the ball really makes it difficult for a pitcher to use his fastball aggressively in the strike zone.

Braden has tried to overcome a lack of movement by “adding and subtracting” and he has done a good job – but I really question how long he can thrive without keeping more balls on the infield. Greg Smith’s strategy has been to nip away at the outside corner, resulting in his being fourth in the league in walks – whereas if he could sink the fastball he could aim it at the knees right over the plate and the natural movement would make the pitch one you want the hitter to put in play. The most dramatic example is Gio Gonzalez, who simply cannot pitch to contact with his fastball – he needs to be able to throw a fastball that helps him when it’s hit, and I think we can safely say that currently this is far from the case.

Mind you, I’m not talking about turning these guys into sinkerball pitchers; I’m talking about the importance of having movement – including sinking action – on the fastball as part of the pitcher’s overall repertoire. I’m surprised how few of the A’s pitchers can sink the fastball, and I think that for Gio Gonzalez, Greg Smith, and Dallas Braden in particular – and in about that order of urgency – their development will be stalled until they are better equipped to pitch to contact with their fastball, and can thus throw it in the strike zone with more confidence.

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...Allright pitchers,

squeeze those tennis balls in the offseason! Build them fingers!

"All managers are losers, they are the most expendable pieces of furniture on the face of the Earth."- Ted Williams

by Gaijin_Suketto on Sep 9, 2008 7:29 AM PDT reply actions  

A little bit off topic, but related to "frustrating youngsters"

Pennington now has five errors to his name in limited action, and two last night.

I haven’t seen any of the five, but I am aware that was considered to be a good minor league defender.

Can anyone that has seen him in action defensively diagnose him for us? Does he not look comfortable? Can we categorize the errors he’s made as fielding/throwing, nervous/fluky, or do they seem to be an indictment of his long-term fielding potential?

Because if he’s really this bad defensively, he can’t be next year’s middle infield utility man, nor can he start at 2b. He definitely doesn’t have the offense to make up for it.

"are you like some sort of argumentative robot?"

by notsellingjeans on Sep 9, 2008 9:44 AM PDT reply actions  

I've only seen one of the errors

But from what I have seen, he seems just fine. My guess is that the errors are from lack of playing time or mental lapses. He doesn’t seem to be doing anything wrong most of the time.

I think Petit will probably get a shot to be a utility guy ahead of him.

by thejd44 on Sep 9, 2008 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think Petit SHOULD get a shot ahead of Pennington,

but the A’s have shown no signs that they believe the same. Quite the opposite, in fact.

"All your baserunner are belong to Greg Smith" ~ walk off bunt

by Philip Christy on Sep 9, 2008 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

They both deserve a shot over Hannhan (or even Crosby at this point)

And that hasn’t happened either. Not entirely sure why.

by thejd44 on Sep 9, 2008 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

I just think Petit...

…should be shot.

------ 84.6% of all statistics are made up.
http://feeds.feedburner.com/athleticsnationpodcast

by gallopingael on Sep 9, 2008 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ouch!

Did he steal your girlfriend or something?

"All your baserunner are belong to Greg Smith" ~ walk off bunt

by Philip Christy on Sep 9, 2008 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

no...

just having to watch his sorry ass play here in Sacramento for the last 2 years has been enough.

------ 84.6% of all statistics are made up.
http://feeds.feedburner.com/athleticsnationpodcast

by gallopingael on Sep 9, 2008 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

I've been dismissing yours...

…out of hand for quite a while.

Turn about is fair play.

------ 84.6% of all statistics are made up.
http://feeds.feedburner.com/athleticsnationpodcast

by gallopingael on Sep 9, 2008 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Shrug

Your loss.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 9, 2008 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

How was Jeff Gray last night?

I saw he had two K’s…anyone have a scouting report?

"are you like some sort of argumentative robot?"

by notsellingjeans on Sep 9, 2008 9:45 AM PDT reply actions  

Duke/Eveland/Braden/Smith/Gallagher in April '09(?)

And let’s really hope all five are healthy. Gio seems like he needs some additional AAA time for sure.

Do we have an injury report on Braden? Is he making his next start?

"are you like some sort of argumentative robot?"

by notsellingjeans on Sep 9, 2008 9:47 AM PDT reply actions  

That is one terrible rotation.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 9, 2008 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

-1

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 9, 2008 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Is go/ao ratio a good indicator of sink?

If I have not seen a pitcher in person, would a ratio of ground balls to fly balls of, say, over 1.5 mean a pitcher has a lot of sink on his fastball, or something else?

by movetotexas on Sep 9, 2008 9:51 AM PDT reply actions  

Yes, but I don't know what the ratio is

Or if there even is one. It may not be foolproof, but it’s a decent rule of thumb that a higher ground ball ratio means more sink on the pitches.

by thejd44 on Sep 9, 2008 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Fastballs with downward movement will produce more ground balls

and weirdly, it doesn’t actually depend on where in the strike zone you throw them. A sinker at the belt will still produce more ground balls, by proportion, than a “riser” at the belt. Although a “riser” at the knees will probably cause more grounders than a sinker at the belt.

Loosely speaking, guys who throw two-seam fastballs generate more grounders than guys who throw four-seam and cut fastballs. This is only a general rule, though.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 9, 2008 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's not really that weird when you think of the physics of it

Since players are swinging at where they think a pitch will be, one that drops more than expected is going to be hit on the upper half of the ball, which will send it on a downward trajectory. If a pitch is belt high, but you thought it was going to be a few inches above the belt, you’re going to beat it into the ground more often (or, at least, relatively more often) than a pitch at the knees that didn’t drop any more than expected.

by thejd44 on Sep 9, 2008 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

There is a smidgen of hope

in the teams performance last night. The offense did score 8 runs, an almost unheard of event for our guys. The pitching let us down, but still, they’re terribly young to be playing at the level they are playing at. The only mentoring they are going to have available to them are guys from the bullpen, such as Embree, and perhaps Street. We have a very young team that is hit and miss on its overall level of play. I’m hoping that over the next few weeks and ST that they start putting it all together. If so, we could be in very good shape going forward. We have a very young team with a lot of potential. 09 may not be as bleak as the prognostications would seem to indicate.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Sep 9, 2008 9:57 AM PDT reply actions  

Or...

they could be even more bleak than most think without any hitters in the lineup.

by Keystone State on Sep 9, 2008 12:01 PM PDT reply actions  

I don't know, man...

the 2008 A’s remind me a lot of the 1990 Twins, except we need to pick up a hitter next year instead of Jack Morris

"All managers are losers, they are the most expendable pieces of furniture on the face of the Earth."- Ted Williams

by Gaijin_Suketto on Sep 9, 2008 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think we should just add Jack Morris

I don’t care if he’s ~55 years old. Probably the greatest mustache the game has seen in the last 30 years.

"are you like some sort of argumentative robot?"

by notsellingjeans on Sep 9, 2008 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

According to br.com

Gio Gonzalez gave up the 250,000th home run in major league history last night on Sheffield’s homer. Not really meaningful in any way, but interesting.

by thejd44 on Sep 9, 2008 12:29 PM PDT reply actions  

He also gave up 249,999 and 249,998

He really wanted that milestone

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 9, 2008 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree

but i think most of this group has decent enough stuff to be able to pitch effectively once they figure out their strategies.

Also, I thought Gio had pretty good movement on all his pitches, including his fastball. Was I mistaken?

by NateHST on Sep 9, 2008 12:29 PM PDT reply actions  

If you want sinkerball pitchers, just hold off for a few more years. Cahill, Anderson and Mazzaro are all heavy groundball pitchers, as is Sam Demel on the relief side.

I agree that the current roster is a little flyball-prone though. To some extent, you can justify that by arguing that the Coliseum is good for flyball pitchers relative to other ballparks, but you’d still rather keep the ball on the ground.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 9, 2008 3:48 PM PDT reply actions  

The heavy groundballers of the future

A good thing to keep in mind when constructing our IF in the next 5 years. Defense should probably be a priority there at least, if not in the OF.

"are you like some sort of argumentative robot?"

by notsellingjeans on Sep 9, 2008 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

That was kind of the implied question in this post -

How much can be taught and how much is innate? Some pitchers can develop a cutter, or a changeup, into their careers – some can’t. I wonder how hard it is for a pitcher to develop (probably with grips on the ball) sinking action on their two-seam fastball. It can’t be super easy or everyone would do it. Yet it’s clearly possible.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 9, 2008 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

A lot of times the best way to get movement is to actually not throw as hard

It seems like a lot of pitchers have a fastball that straightens out when they rev up to get that extra 2-3 mph on it. The problem is that a lot of the A’s pitchers are throwing around 90 as it is, so dropping to 88 for more movement might not make them a better overall pitcher.

by thejd44 on Sep 9, 2008 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

The reason for that, sometimes, is...

more times than not if any of your pitches are flat your not staying, as they say, on top of the pitch. You try to muscle it up there and your mechanics go and you find your body below the ball, almost shot-putting it up to the plate. I would certainly hope this is not the case, as it would mean that Curt Young and all the technology players have at their disposal, aren’t being used properly.

ken korach's voice is like peanut butter on velvet, not joe buck's.

by mrbendy on Sep 9, 2008 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

In the case of the current A's players, I don't believe any of them except Duchscherer

actually throw a 2-seam fastball. Gallagher might, I’m not sure. Most of them throw straight or cut fastballs.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 9, 2008 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's definitely possible

Chad Gaudin clearly changed the manner in which he threw his fastball this season so that the “break plane” was more horizontal. He got better control of it, but his groundball rate dropped, so he was effectively trading walks for fly balls. There’s always some kind of tradeoff from altering a pitch— decreased control, decreased velocity, worsened platoon splits. TINSTAAFL.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 9, 2008 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

FL?

There Is No Such Thing As A… ?

I’m unfamiliar with the nomenclature, (dude).

"are you like some sort of argumentative robot?"

by notsellingjeans on Sep 9, 2008 5:11 PM PDT reply actions  

Ooh, the Thread Police will be on me for that one

The above comment is a response to Paul.

"are you like some sort of argumentative robot?"

by notsellingjeans on Sep 9, 2008 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Free Lunch"

Overqualified to be an A's fan.

by andeux on Sep 9, 2008 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

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