Ten guys, five spots: the A's outfield predicament
Ohhh, how times change so quickly in Green and Gold land. This time last season Travis Buck and Mark Kotsay had been shut down for the remainder of the year and we were all wondering who the heck would be healthy enough to man the A's outfield in 2008. This season, it's almost the complete opposite predicament: who isn't going to spend some time in the A's outfield in 2008, let alone 2009? The A's 40-man roster is absolutely packed to the brim with outfielders - 11 roster players are strictly outfielders while another (Eric Patterson) has seen some time out there so far this season. This diverse of collection of talent is certainly going to result in an intriguing combination of outfield rotations over the last few weeks of this season (especially when the RiverCats' season ends), but will certainly necessitate sweeping roster maneuvering over the winter time.
So, on the off-day today, let's discuss the A's current outfield cluster-f***, examine the strength/weaknesses of each player and see if there is any type of consensus here on AN about what do with the outfield for the foreseeable future. By my count, there are 10 guys currently on the 40-man that are under team control next season and are likely to be in the 2009 OF mix:
Jack Cust: Even in my most stat-headed of Staturdays, Cust is a very frustrating player for me to really get excited about. His inability to make consistent contact has been discussed ad naseum on this site. However, we all know what he's good at: taking walks and hitting homers, and he does both well enough to lead the A's and the entire AL in one category (walks) and crack the top-ten in the league in the other (10th in homers). He's a streaky hitter, but he's actually a good enough hitter during his good streaks that he can carry an offense (see last night for evidence). He's still a liability with a glove on his hand and ideally he'd be the team's primary DH next season, however, with Chavez possibly needing to see most of his time at DH for the next few seasons, Cust has to be considered an outfielder. He'll be arby-eligible for the first time this winter and should get a million dollars or so. He's the closest thing to a "sure-thing" going into next season...
Rajai Davis: In many ways the polar opposite of Cust, Davis has seen his playing time increase recently due to his hot hitting. He seems like a good defensive centerfielder. He's a total burner on the basepaths but still doesn't seem like a good enough hitter to get on-base enough to really be an asset everyday (especially since he doesn't walk much). Part of me thinks that picking up Davis this season was just a one-year experiment by Beane to see how speed could be utilized within the current corps of players and by the current coaching staff. Davis is out of options, so he'll need to stay on the active roster all winter lest be exposed to waivers.

Aaron Cunningham: I've been excited about Cunningham ever since he was acquired in the Haren deal, and he's off to a pretty good start in the majors. It's clear he's an aggressive swinger (2 BBs vs. 7 K's) but he's always hit for a high average in the minors and has done so in a small sample size so far for Oakland. He seems like a decent bet to be a well-rounded regular at the outfield corners for several years into the future.
Ryan Sweeney: Overall, Sweeney's had a pretty good full rookie season. The "Will he ever hit for enough power?" question will undoubtedly continue to follow him until he belts 15+ homers in consecutive seasons, however, I like his inside-out swing and ability to collect multi-hit games and RBIs. Seems like an ideal-enough leadoff hitter, who runs well and he's a very good defensive player in the outfield corners.
Carlos Gonzalez: Cargon's got more upside than anyone else on this list, but he looked really bad in August for the big club and hasn't really impressed with the RiverCats so far in their playoff run. I'm cautiously optimistic about the kid and at least at this point we know that he can handle centerfield everyday at the major league level, but his bat is still unrefined. He'll most assuredly be back with the big club after the PCL playoffs, but if he continues to struggle with his swing when he's back up with the big club, then I wouldn't be surprised if he started next season back at AAA.
Travis Buck: Buck seems to finally be emerging from his season-long slump and was a key contributor to the RiverCats' PCL 1st round playoff series win this past week. If he can get some major league at-bats this month and regain the form that he showed at the major league level last season (.850 OPS) he would likely get first crack at re-taking one of the starting corner jobs next season, since his trade value is likely at an all-time low and A's brass has continued to express confidence in him throughout his rollercoaster season.
Chris Denorfia: Denorfia, like Buck, was injured most of the season and spent most the year at AAA Sacramento. Recently, he's been red-hot for the Cats and that hot stick has stayed hot through the 1st round of the playoffs. Chris can play all three outfield position fairly well and hit for a high-average and run the bases relatively well. Ideally, he'd be a 4th or 5th outfielder, but with this depth he might not even get a crack at those spots. Not sure about his option status, but another turn in the minors to start next season might be in order for Chris if the current crop of outfielders isn't cut down at the major-league level.
Matt Murton: Murton was another guy I'd liked for awhile and was happy to get in the Harden deal. He's had some previous success in the major leagues, but never really got a chance with the A's this past season. He's also done a great job in the minors of controlling the strikezone (near 42/40 BB/K ratio in the minors this season) and has hit for a high average. Unfortunately, Murton has seen a HUGE drop-off in his power numbers over the past season. From 2005-2007 Murton hit 28 homers during various stints with the Cubs' at the major league level. This season, Matt only hit 2 homers total at two different minor league clubs and at the major league level. That type of power drop-off is concerning, especially considering that Matt is in his theoretical power prime (soon to be 27 years old) and has such a solid track record. Perhaps he's hiding an injury? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that Murton may have one more option year. If that is the case, I could see the team bring him up later this month, see if he can get his power stroke back and then send him to the minors to start next season with the intent of using him for depth, since he could be a decent righty bench bat for a couple years.
Javy Herrera: The oft-injured former 5-tooler Javy finally got back on the field for the second half of the Midland Rockhounds season. He had a decent few months with the Double-A team, hitting .267 with a .769 OPS, 9 homers, 36 RBIs and 8 stolen bases in about 60 games. Javy used to be the "big right-handed hope" of the A's system, but I think at this time, he certainly can't be counted on to be a consistent contributor at the higher levels of the system. He's a definite candidate to be traded and/or removed from the 40-man this winter.
Richie Robnett: Robnett, who has always considered "raw" ever since being drafted out of Fresno State in 2004, had a rough 2008 year. He struggled at AAA after getting over 200 at-bats at that level and was demoted to Double-A Midland late in the season. Richie, who's entire frame is built for power, hasn't really been able to harness that power consistently and only hit 4 homers total in the minors this past season. For a soon-to-be 25-year old, that's not a very good sign. Robnett seems like another trade/DFA candidate over the winter.
*******
Conclusion: It's certainty going to be very interesting finding out what the A's intend to do with all these guys in the coming months. I would say that a trade or two could help alleviate the logjam heading into next season, but with health concerns and poor performance affecting the value of guys like Buck, Denorfia and Murton, I don't really see how they could be moved for anything of value. On top of that, besides Cust, none of these guys have shown the ability to really hit like an everyday major league outfielder, at least at any point during this past season. Cunningham and Cargon are largely unproven, Sweeney hasn't hit for much power, Buck is a total wildcard, Rajai is mostly-all slap and slash, Denorfia never hit for a lot of power in years past and Murton has seemed to have lost his power stroke entirely.
To me, it's a precarious situation: the A's have a definite surplus of outfielders with various strengths and weaknesses, but most are not really proven enough to know what you're going to get from them next season, and those with experience have major flaws (Cust - defense/K's, Buck - lost 2008 season, Murton - no power) and are virtually untradeable. There is no way that all of these guys can crack the major league roster next season, so what is to be done with this motley crew heading into 2009?
1. Go defense-first: With a young pitching staff and a defense-oriented club, the A's could go with a defense-first outfield rotation next season. They could hold onto Rajai, play him full-time in center next season and use Cargon in right and Sweeney in left. That outfield might be the best defensive outfield in the majors...
2. Go offense-first: The A's, desperate for offense, could rather elect an-offense first mentality for the outfield rotation and play Cust full-time in left, Cargon in center and Buck (if healthy) in right. That rotation would at least give the team a chance at fielding three average or above-average hitters at their respective positions, while opening up the DH spot for Chavez or any other hitter to give the lineup an added punch while Cust plays the field.
3. Find a Happy Medium: Ideally, a happy medium could be reached with this diverse group of players. Cargon (CF) and Cunningham (LF) offer enough skills and upside to deserve to play everyday, while Buck/Sweeney could form a nice offense/defense right-field quasi platoon. Cust can play the field occasionally, DH most of the time and Rajai can be the 4th outfielder. But in this "solution", where does the team put Chavez/Barton, if in fact Eric can no longer play 3rd base everyday?
4. Trade/sign another outfielder: Without a really clear-cut solution, the A's could elect to even clear room on the active roster for a free agent or trade candidate to man the outfield. Burrell, Man-ram and Dunn are free agent targets and Holliday could be a trade target.
What's the consensus, guys and gals?
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I've never seen 'eke' used properly in a sentence.
You sir are clearly a true master of the English language.
Does outfield defense really make that huge of a difference? I suppose it might if you have pitchers with high flyball ratios, but isn’t infield defense far more important? In any case, I’m not sure that defense is really a big issue with the A’s at this point. Aside from Cust (and maybe Crosby) I don’t think that have any particularly bad fielders. The offense, however, has been a problem for years. I’m sick of these binary offensive games.
by VORP is too nerdy on
Sep 7, 2008 12:17 PM PDT
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Perhaps, but not of Latin...
cf: “ad naseum”
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
by iglew on
Sep 7, 2008 1:27 PM PDT
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Larry Davis has never seen "EKG" used properly in a sentence ...
… OK, maybe in a death sentence …
If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Sep 7, 2008 5:37 PM PDT
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The infield is more important than the outfield, but offhand
I’d estimate the relationship as about 3:2. And part of that is because there are more infielders than outfielders.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 7, 2008 7:46 PM PDT
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Care to clue us in to where you're pulling that estimate out of?
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 8:20 PM PDT
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Just the difference between the good and bad players at each position
At SS, 2B and CF, it’s about 40 runs.
At 3B, it’s about 30 runs.
At 1B, RF and LF it’s about 20 runs.
So that’s 80 for the outfield vice 130 for the infield.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 7, 2008 8:29 PM PDT
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how do you define "good" and "bad"?
and i’m being serious.
by Sky Kalkman on
Sep 7, 2008 8:52 PM PDT
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I'd say something like "the point at which you have a solid chance of being the best/worst in your league"
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 7, 2008 9:13 PM PDT
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Carlos Gonzalez, Aaron Cunningham, Ryan Sweeney
with Travis Buck and Chris Denorfia as backups. Every one of them has pretty good defense and they’re all going to give you about the same amount of offense, at least the same type of offense, in my opinion.
Unless you go outside the system and sign somebody who can absolutely mash, I don’t think it’s worth it to sign anybody. Otherwise you have Jack Cust or Eric Chavez at DH.
by NateHST on
Sep 7, 2008 12:27 PM PDT
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I think
Once Chavez shows you he’s healthy, whether that be in ST next year or a month into the season, then you start making plans around him. At this point he should not even be in the conversation, IMHO.
"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin
by Helloooo 1st on
Sep 7, 2008 1:00 PM PDT
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It's time to part ways with Jack Cust...
with the huge influx of outfielders and a question mark with Eric Chavez there is not a spot on this team for Jack. There is no reason why we cant either DH Chavez or one of our other outfielders instead of continuing to use Jack.
by mattman on
Sep 7, 2008 1:25 PM PDT
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time to part ways with our best hitter, when we're the worst hitting team in baseball?
"Innings eater? Depends on whether you want delicious innings or burnt, moldy innings. Kirk Saarloos is the Hot Pockets of inning eaters." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by notsellingjeans on
Sep 7, 2008 1:34 PM PDT
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Nope
Chavez is the one who must go. If he can’t play third base, he’s of no use to this team. Give up any notion of him playing 1B or being the DH. It may be necessary to part with someone useful to get him out of Oakland (like tying Ramon Hernandez to Terrence Long to make Long go away) but it needs to be done.
Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!
by Monday Fan on
Sep 8, 2008 10:00 AM PDT
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You're great at making bold pronouncements
Not so great on the “giving actual justification for them.”
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 8, 2008 10:59 AM PDT
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Do you think Chavez is likely to bring enough offense to play 1B or DH? I sure don't...
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on
Sep 8, 2008 11:31 AM PDT
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neither do I, but ...
It’s one thing to have a low estimate of Chavez’ health/production next year. It’s another entirely to advocate not merely selling him for pennies on the dollar, but using some other trading chip of unspecified but positive value as bait to get rid of him.
Given that we all presume ‘09 to be another noncompetitive/rebuilding year, what’s the harm in giving Chavez a fair number of PAs to either (a) gain some on-field productivity value out of the last 24 months of his contract, and/or (b) entice some other team into actually positively valuing him?
If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Sep 8, 2008 11:47 AM PDT
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yeah, I was more agreeing with the first part of the sentiment
I think abstractly calling for trades is a bit pointless. However, I don’t like the idea of “playing guys to build their trade value.” Does that ever work? I don’t see him as having much on-field productivity if he isn’t at 3B. Also, it can be a problem to have someone with sufficient stature that he politically has to be in the lineup . And another also, having him on the team might lead to problems from a planning standpoint. The FO shouldn’t be thinking along the lines, “Move X might be good, but then what would we do with Chavy?…”
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on
Sep 8, 2008 12:11 PM PDT
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Again
the question is not “does it abstractly suck that the team is in this position w/r/t Chavez,” but “does it suck so much that the team should actively seek to wash its hands of him to a degree that it is willing to surrender young talent to get rid of him?”
I view the latter question as ridiculous. Worst case scenario, the team ends up eating the contract. Unless the young gun somehow persuades some other team to pay most or all of Chavez’s contract and enables the team to buy a more talented replacement for him (the prospect, not Chavez), it’s pointless. And if some other team is willing to pay most of Chavez’s contract, it indicates that he is probably not useless.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 8, 2008 12:45 PM PDT
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Yeah, I definitely don't agree with giving up someone good just to be rid of him
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on
Sep 8, 2008 12:49 PM PDT
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so, then, you'd advocate keeping Chavez on the roster but *not* playing him?
If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Sep 8, 2008 12:55 PM PDT
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I would hope someone would pick him up on waivers,
and barring that, I would leave him on the DL until he can play the field.
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on
Sep 8, 2008 1:09 PM PDT
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Even if he were claimed on waivers
he could decline to go to whomever picked him up, because he’s a 10 and 5 guy now. He’s basically untradeable, since I doubt he’d consent.
The other possibility is that the team just eats all the money and allows him to sign with someone else by waiving him outright like the Blue Jays did with Frank…but I don’t see why we’d do that. Nothing to gain.
"are you like some sort of argumentative robot?"
by notsellingjeans on
Sep 8, 2008 1:55 PM PDT
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it somehow worked with Kendall and Kotsay and Loaiza (and Harden)
The one skill of Beane’s that I regard as magical is his ability to convince other GMs to give up value for crap like these guys.
Personally, I think Chavez is done, period. But unless Beane follows grover’s advice on acquiring multiple elite hitters this offseason (and 2 or more of our young OFs + Barton + 2 or more of our young Ps make significant strides in their development Feb-Apr ‘09), I’d have no problem with the A’s giving Chavez 200 PAs in the first half of ‘09 (at whatever positions he’s capable of handling) to prove me wrong — so long as the endgame is, indeed, trading him and not relying on him as a part of the team in ’10.
If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Sep 8, 2008 12:54 PM PDT
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I just think of Chavez as a sunk cost
Right now, the cost to the A’s of keeping him, playing him where he fits, and trying to rehab him to good-ness is effectively zero.
I’d be on board with benching him if the various slots he could fill are instead filled by MLB-ready prospects and or elite players. Right now, that is emphatically NOT the case.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 8, 2008 1:00 PM PDT
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It is the case if we're talking about DH...
and it doesn’t seem that likely that his shoulder will be too shredded to play 3B, but just un-shredded enough to play 1B.
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on
Sep 8, 2008 1:08 PM PDT
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it's not clear at all that it worked with
any of those guys. Did Kotsay improve his trade value by playing for awhile, being completely awful, and then getting injured again, as opposed to sitting on the bench? Were the Cubs anxious to get Kendall because he was starting every day with an ops+ of -700 instead of playing 2 days out of 5? Loaiza was never really played for the sake of inducing trade value, and in fact you could make the case that the opposite is true, given that letting him go for nothing worked wonders as opposed to hoping that he could pitch well enough to get some players back at some point in the future.
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on
Sep 8, 2008 1:05 PM PDT
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whu?
You mean to say you think K&K would have had any value at all if they had been benched?
Honestly, I don’t know why the Cubs or the Braves thought K or K had any value whatsoever, but I have to think the fact that they were “established MLB veterans” and were starters who refused to sit on the bench, stupid as it is to value that, were significant factors.
If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Sep 8, 2008 3:12 PM PDT
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No, I don't know why think they would have had less value if benched
They received interest because of what they had done in the past, and in spite of what they did in 2007, and I don’t see any reason it would have been different if they had been benched.
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on
Sep 8, 2008 3:48 PM PDT
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If Beane follows my advice
do I get any financial compensation?
Or do I just get the ultimate in gloating rights here on AN.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Sep 8, 2008 10:17 PM PDT
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It's possible
His numbers prior to 2006 would make him at least a league-average first baseman; assuming he is defensively skilled there he would be an asset to the team. As a DH he’s no asset, but at least he’s not below replacement level like half of the current roster…
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 8, 2008 12:37 PM PDT
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Well, his numbers before 2006 are of questionable relevance....
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on
Sep 8, 2008 12:41 PM PDT
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That's morosely depressing.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on
Sep 8, 2008 9:33 PM PDT
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Chavez can't be traded anymore.
He earned “10 and 5” rights earlier this season. The most recent trade deadline was the team’s last opportunity to trade him without needing his consent, and given that he’s very much a family man, I’m sure that even if the team came up with a hypothetical deal, he’d be inclined to stay in Oakland.
Might as well find a spot for him, because he’s here and making money for the forseeable future. That’s why I could see him at 1b until Barton becomes a better hitter; Chavy is a great defender and can field well, but he (probably) can’t throw anymore.
If he’s hurt in ST ’09, which would be predictable, it opens the door for Barton to resume as starting 1b.
"are you like some sort of argumentative robot?"
by notsellingjeans on
Sep 8, 2008 1:52 PM PDT
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IIRC...
…didn’t Chavez have a limited no-trade prior to the 10/5 status? I also seem to recall that he was willing to waive that not too long ago if it would have been in the best interest of the team. Point being, that Chavez isn’t an unreasonable person, and he may be agreeable to a trade regardless of his 10/5 status. I’m sure not just any trade, but I doubt he’d be overly stubborn, either.
"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds
by UncleLeo on
Sep 8, 2008 2:24 PM PDT
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that's true
So you don’t think he’d pull a Brian Giles huh? :)
Good point.
"are you like some sort of argumentative robot?"
by notsellingjeans on
Sep 8, 2008 2:31 PM PDT
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Remember, Chavez and Beane are buds
Beane was never going to trade Chavez to a team he didn’t want to go to, regardless of whether he had a formal no-trade clause or not— and Chavez isn’t going to veto a trade if it’s a reasonable situation for him and it would help the A’s out.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 9, 2008 4:39 PM PDT
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I was trying to avoid being too repetitive
The Eric Chavez of 2000-2004 is gone and he’s not coming back. Not in his 30s with surgeries on his back and both shoulders. The A’s will be lucky if he’s healthy at all. Healthy and productive? The chances are remote. Healthy, productive and playing third base so he’s not blocking the development of a player who has a future with the team? Forget it.
Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!
by Monday Fan on
Sep 8, 2008 12:21 PM PDT
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I just think of 3rd as a an abysmal hole
Chavez/Pennington/Baisley/Murphy will all put up horrible numbers April 09
maybe we can bring back Carney… he couldn’t do much worse.
by buddahead9 on
Sep 8, 2008 4:24 PM PDT
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After experimenting, I have determined
that mindless pessimism is not actually psychologically comforting. Despite what might seem to be the case.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 8, 2008 8:10 PM PDT
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Carney Lansford?
Why do A’s fans love this guy so much? He has to be the most overrated player in Oakland A’s history. He was an awful third baseman and he wasn’t much of a hitter beyond his ability to slap singles through the infield. Somehow, Lansford was picked by the fans as the third baseman on the A’s all centrury team and the 40th anniversary team. Did Frank Baker and Sal Bando just slip into oblivion to be completely forgotten? It’s not like they were clubhouse cancers. One was a World Series hero and a Hall of Famer. The other was the team captain and leader of a dynasty. As players, they were vastly superior to Lansford. So what is the source of this love for Lansford? Is it an obsession with scrappy white guys? Was it Ray Fosse’s decade long P.R. campaign? (His obsession with Jason Kendall paled in comparison to his love affair with Lansford.) I just don’t get it.
Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!
by Monday Fan on
Sep 9, 2008 11:41 AM PDT
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I Don't Know
Sure everyone holds their breath when the ball is hit at Cust, sure the K,K, BB, single, K, BB, K, HR. repeat. gets old. but for how much he costs I’d rather have him giving us 25-30 HRs a year than going out and getting a ’09 version of DFA for twice as much.
Especially since Buck/Cargo/Cunningham/Sweeney will probably go through slumps and if we’re lucky combined will give us 40 HRs.
by buddahead9 on
Sep 7, 2008 1:36 PM PDT
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If he was hitting a HR every 6 ABs he'd be the MVP.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
by brenarlo on
Sep 7, 2008 3:25 PM PDT
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hey if Crosby '07 "can"
be an AL MVP favorite…
why not Cust ’09??
by buddahead9 on
Sep 7, 2008 7:01 PM PDT
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Because Gammons has had brain surgery now.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 7:09 PM PDT
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there is at least one reason we can't DH chavez
and that is we have no idea if he can stay healthy/still hit. why even count on him at this point?
by chipper1001 on
Sep 7, 2008 2:06 PM PDT
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Let me see if I understand this....
It’s time to part ways with an affordable 30 HR guy who also happens to lead the league in walks?
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
by alox on
Sep 7, 2008 3:53 PM PDT
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You understand it perfectly
If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Sep 7, 2008 5:38 PM PDT
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I for one, and I am probably in the minority,
have been pleased with Jack Cust’s defense thus far, for the most part.
He hasn’t been as much of a liability asI had expected, at least in the games I have watched/read about….
Anybody else feel this way?
witty remark
by dtownmbrown on
Sep 9, 2008 11:26 AM PDT
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The Hardball Times defensive statistics bear this out
He has not been the league’s worst starting left fielder statistically. There have definitely been a few that are behind him.
"are you like some sort of argumentative robot?"
by notsellingjeans on
Sep 9, 2008 5:15 PM PDT
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Serious question for stat-heads
When reading above that Jack Cust is a streaky hitter, it occurred to me to wonder: Is streakiness a true attribute that a player can have, or is it just random distribution?
Obviously streakiness does exist. Looking back, you can see which players were streaky and which weren’t. What I’m wondering is whether it projects forward at all. Is there really something about some hitters that makes them streakier than others, or is it like clutch, where random distribution dictates that some players will have it and others won’t, but it’s recognizable only in retrospect.
I know it’s been demonstrated that there’s no significant correlation between past clutch and future clutch. Is that also true of streakiness, or is there really something about a player’s hitting style that would cause one player’s hits to bunch themselves more than another’s? I really don’t know, and I’m genuinely curious.
I assume it can be tested. There must be some statistical number that measures how evenly spread a guy’s hits are over a certain period. You could figure that for lots of hitters over different periods of time and see whether streakiness projects forward or not.
I’m not sure I’m explaining this well, and I’m sure a lot of readers (the ones who still believe in clutch) have no idea what I’m talking about, but you stat-heads know what I mean. Has this been studied? If not, is it a project anyone out there would like to take on?
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
by iglew on
Sep 7, 2008 1:30 PM PDT
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no such thing as streakiness. see The Book
by Sky Kalkman on
Sep 7, 2008 2:44 PM PDT
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Statheads: There's no such thing as streakiness
Anyone who has ever played or talked at length with professional athletes: Of course there is.
It just doesn’t last long, so oftentimes by the time you have a large enough sample to pinpoint a streak, the streak is over. I can always tell when Cust is about to go on a HR binge. He suddenly is clearly “seeing the ball better” and soon after a couple fouls back or “near HR” misses, he’ll inevitably hit a flurry of HRs. Same with the downturns – you can see when he is going cold, if you watch carefully, right at the turning point.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Sep 7, 2008 3:31 PM PDT
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can you start a blog and announce the beginnings and endings of his hot streaks?
i’d love to make some money.
by Sky Kalkman on
Sep 7, 2008 7:35 PM PDT
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Better yet - I'll start an entire baseball academy
As a tribute, I’ll call it the “Jack Cust Baseball Academy” – it’ll be great!
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Sep 7, 2008 7:42 PM PDT
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All people, including baseball players, are terrible at evaluating themselves
When they test new drugs, they usually compare the active drug to a sugar pill, or placebo. About 1/3 of the patients getting the placebo will swear that it made them better. I’ve seen studies with placebo response as high as 65%. It’s difficult for us to accept and understand, but we really have a very poor sense of what’s happening to our body, and that includes professional athletes.
It’s like the card game War; every once in a while, you get on a streak and start feeling really good, even though it’s completely random. I agree that a large part of performance is dictated by the mental state and physical health of the athlete, but it’s also completely normal so see variation in performance, even in a completely random sample. The fact that athletes can’t recognize this in themselves is completely unsurprising, and the fact that they attribute it to some unquantifiable factor is likewise a completely expected phenomenon.
by MrIncognito on
Sep 8, 2008 12:34 PM PDT
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so ... Beane should sign Placebo Polanco?
If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Sep 8, 2008 12:56 PM PDT
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Thanks, Sky
As I tried to suggest when asking the question, this doesn’t really mean streakiness doesn’t exist, only that it’s not repeatable. Obviously it does exist retrospectively, just like clutch.
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
by iglew on
Sep 7, 2008 10:07 PM PDT
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April '09
LF: Cunningham
CF: Rajai
RF: Sweeney
Fourth OF: Buck
DH: Cust
Emergency OFs: Cust and Patterson
Baisley starting at third, Chavez at first, and Hannahan/Petit/Patterson/Pennington in a cage match to start at second. As much as Hannahan is criticized for getting playing time around here, he’s probably still a better hitter than those other three, as sad as that is.
Barton and CarGon start the year in AAA, unless Chavez is hurt. Murton and Norfie both have an option remaining, and most likely the team will need some spare outfielders at some point because Sweeney and Buck could both see some injury time.
"Innings eater? Depends on whether you want delicious innings or burnt, moldy innings. Kirk Saarloos is the Hot Pockets of inning eaters." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by notsellingjeans on
Sep 7, 2008 1:38 PM PDT
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Question:
If Murton and Denorfia are brought up to the big club later this month, but then optioned back down to the AAA roster before the official end to the major league season, will they both be eligible to be optioned up and down as many as times as the big club wishes next seas
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
by Taj Adib on
Sep 7, 2008 1:59 PM PDT
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yes
This year has already been an option year for both, but they both will still both have one option remaining.
They can both optioned up and down as many times as the team desires in ’09. But that would be their last year with that kind of flexibility.
"are you like some sort of argumentative robot?"
by notsellingjeans on
Sep 7, 2008 2:17 PM PDT
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Side question: where do you go to for "option year" info?
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
by Taj Adib on
Sep 7, 2008 4:24 PM PDT
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Cot's
If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Sep 7, 2008 5:39 PM PDT
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Cot's doesn't have option years listed...
and in fact, I’m not aware of any site that does.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 7, 2008 7:53 PM PDT
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This is a fact, and it's sad
I tried to start a grassroots movement for one at minorleagueball, with contributors from each big league fanbase (similar to Zonis’ very cool prospect depth chart), but it didn’t materialize.
The best thing to do would be to create a wiki online and post about it at each SB nation blog site. There’s at least few knowledgeable enough fans for each MLB team that we could create one.
"are you like some sort of argumentative robot?"
by notsellingjeans on
Sep 7, 2008 7:58 PM PDT
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hunh? really?
Maybe not comprehensively, but they do list most options. For example:
Eric Chavez 3b
6 years/$66M (2005-10), plus $12.5M 2011 club option
$3M signing bonus (paid in $0.5M installments, 2004-09)
05:$8M, 06:$9M, 07:$9M, 08:$11M, 09:$11M, 10:$12M,
11:$12.5M club option ($3M buyout)
limited no-trade clause blocking deals to TOR MON TB NYM MIN MIL FL CLE
$0.1M award bonus for Gold Glove
signed extension 3 /04
4 years/$11.75M (2001-04), plus $6M 2005 club option
signed 8/00
$0.1M signing bonus
01:$0.5M, 02:$2.4M, 03:$3.55M, 04:$5.2M, 05:$6M club option (exercised 3/02)
agent: Lapa & Leventhal, All Bases Covered Sports Management (previously represented by Dave Stewart & BHSC)
ML service: 9.020
If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Sep 8, 2008 10:08 AM PDT
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oh, wait -- you meant option-to-minors years, didn't you?
My bad.
If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Sep 8, 2008 10:09 AM PDT
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)*&^*^ jargon
Legal language is annoying enough as it is without using the same word to mean two different things. Yeah, we meant “minor league option years,” not contract options.
MLB and the union should really agree to let a neutral outsider go through the rulebook and clarify/revise/eliminate the incomprehensible, poorly worded, or rarely used sections.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 8, 2008 11:02 AM PDT
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I'm sure MLB & the union...
…feel that any ambiguity can be used to their benefit.
"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds
by UncleLeo on
Sep 8, 2008 2:26 PM PDT
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Surely it can't benefit BOTH sides
They’re in competition with each other.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 9, 2008 4:40 PM PDT
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I cannot figure out why you're advocating starting Rajai Davis
Normally, when you’re trying to build a winning baseball team, it’s better to start, you know, a baseball player in center field.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 7, 2008 7:52 PM PDT
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We're not going to have, you know, a winning baseball team next year
but when you factor in defense, he’s our best center field option at this point, IMO. Better than burning a useless, crappy year of CarGon’s career and losing a year off his peak at the back end.
"are you like some sort of argumentative robot?"
by notsellingjeans on
Sep 7, 2008 8:00 PM PDT
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OK
So, on this non-winning baseball team, you prefer to start a 28 year old with no upside, while holding a very talented but somewhat impatient and easily bored 23 year old with big upside in AAA.
Does not compute.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 7, 2008 8:04 PM PDT
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A way above average fielding CF who is an average major league offensive player
is generally a net positive contributor.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 8:22 PM PDT
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See below for my refutation of the concept that Rajai Davis is average at offense.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 7, 2008 8:30 PM PDT
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See below for my refutation of your refutation.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 8:32 PM PDT
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Making a case for "defense first":
Since I’m apparently in the 3% minority :)
1. The most tradeable asset in baseball is pitching, because teams always more of it. The better the A’s defense is, the more attractive their pitchers look, and the easier it is to trade them for value. Dan Haren is a good pitcher, but he looked even better with an amazing defense. And he yielded two of our current SPs, our current starting LFer, and our CF of the future.
2. The pitchers not only look more attractive statistically with better defense, but the staff is better preserved on the whole. Better defense = less pitches thrown = less strain on the entire staff.
3. Defense is a hell of a lot cheaper than offense is. FA deals almost never accurately factor in bad and/or declining defense.
4. Defense peaks at a slightly younger (re: cheaper) age than offense does. A tertiary benefit of fielding an entirely cost-controlled team of guys in their 20s is, you’re getting them during their entire defensive peak.
"are you like some sort of argumentative robot?"
by notsellingjeans on
Sep 7, 2008 1:58 PM PDT
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I would find these arguments more compelling
if applied to the infield. Someone else out there probably has a better idea of the actual percentage, but it seems to me that the outfield is only a small piece of all those defensive benefits you cite.
(I voted for the “happy medium”. I do like defense some, just not as the first priority.)
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
by iglew on
Sep 7, 2008 2:10 PM PDT
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+1
which is why I believe that Petit should be starting SS next year, even if he profiles as a worse hitter than Hannahan. Petit is an improvement over Pennington defensively and offensively.
I see the future. I see cake.
by Blicks on
Sep 7, 2008 2:14 PM PDT
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Wishful thinking.
Crosby WILL be the SS next year. There’s no changing that fact. Plus, he’s going to have a career year. The bastard. Book it.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
by alox on
Sep 7, 2008 3:56 PM PDT
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A career year from Crosby is a pretty good year.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 5:37 PM PDT
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Haren's looked even better in Arizona
with an inferior defense, in a hitter’s park.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on
Sep 7, 2008 6:08 PM PDT
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In a pitcher's league
it is not possible to strategize while the ball is coming towards you
by eastcoasta'sfan on
Sep 7, 2008 7:18 PM PDT
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A little bit of both.
Cunningham, Buck, Sweeney OF.
Cust DH.
Rajai 4th OF/pinch runner/defensive sub
Gonzalez starts off in AAA. If he can “oust” one of the current OF, he gets the spot.
Chavez starts off at 3B/backup 1B. Chavez does not/should not DH on a regular basis. His main asset is his defense, Cust is better offensively. Baisley might factor into 3B (depending on what he does when/if he’s called up to the bigs and in ST next year.) if Chavez can’t play 3B.
I see the future. I see cake.
by Blicks on
Sep 7, 2008 2:12 PM PDT
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+1
With CarGon hopefully takin Rajai’s spot midseason. We need speed in the infield. Can Rajai play 2nd?
The Stockton Ports pitching staff is better than the Orioles.
by gdub171 on
Sep 7, 2008 6:35 PM PDT
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Yes but not very well.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 6:51 PM PDT
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about sweeney's power...
anybody wonder if its due to injuries? i mean, he was never a big HR hitter in the minors, but i am curious if his numerous injuries this year have impacted his potential power numbers. i always thought he’d be able to hit 15 HR or so every year.
by guy incognito on
Sep 7, 2008 2:17 PM PDT
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No.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 7, 2008 7:55 PM PDT
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Me and my crazy ideas
Sweeney in CF.
Cust in LF.
Buck/Gonzalez duke it out for RF.
In a perfect world, Chavez’s “career-ending injury” remark turns out to be a little melodramatic and he returns to 3B, Cust moves back to DH, and Aaron Cunningham proves he belongs in the majors, taking over LF.
Rajai Davis resumes duties as bat boy.
Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.
by Joey C. on
Sep 7, 2008 2:17 PM PDT
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cust is a crappy fielder
put him at DH. with all the young guys now in the system, there’s bound to be one or two who develop good bats to go with good gloves. one the prospects settle themselves out, then you decide which free agents to go after, to fill in the holes.
by Sky Kalkman on
Sep 7, 2008 2:46 PM PDT
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General Cust observations
Is Cust really that bad on Defense? It seems that he has improved this season. I think that if he is left in LF he can do okay, meaning slightly below major league average on defense, moderately above major league average on offense. Overall, he is on the high end of major league average for Left Field. He has definitely improved as a LF. That isn’t bad, especially when you consider how far below average we are at various other positions.
What I’d like to see is Cust signed to a four year deal for about 5 or 6 million bucks. with that contract he would be tradeable at any time. He could then play Left.
As for DH, Cust should be the backup, we should start Chavez there. If he gets to a point where he can play some 3b, great, but we shouldn’t assume anything.
One more thing about Cust, he isn’t a bad baserunner. I think he would be an ideal hitter in the #2 hole, especially with a true leadoff hitter in front of him. Think about it, you throw pitchouts and fastballs when there is a base stealing threat on first. Cust bats lefthanded and is massive, and he crushes fastballs. I would rather see him in the #2 hole where his high OBP helps to initiate rallies rather than delay their death.
They're called RUNS for a reason.
by connie mack on
Sep 7, 2008 3:27 PM PDT
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turn this one green, folks
If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Sep 7, 2008 5:41 PM PDT
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think you can just order us around like this?!
elitist monkey!
[recs comment]
by oakinboston on
Sep 8, 2008 5:40 AM PDT
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Cust may have improved in LF and he may not be very much below average there, but the average
LF is a pretty crappy fielder. Below average there is just bad. Signing Cust for 4-5 years cheaply isn’t a terrible idea, but he seems like a pretty high risk proposition. PECOTA agrees — his 25th percentile EqA for 2011 is .265.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 6:59 PM PDT
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so he's got at least a 75% chance of being an above-average hitter in three years? cool
by Sky Kalkman on
Sep 7, 2008 7:37 PM PDT
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Cust with the offensive production of Rajai Davis is a pretty bad player.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 7:39 PM PDT
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is rajai davis really a league-average hitter?
my point was the even at his 25th percentile, Cust isn’t a horrible hitter — he might still be worth DHing. what’s his 50th percentile? or 75th? he’s just as likely to hit his 75th as his 25th.
by Sky Kalkman on
Sep 7, 2008 7:43 PM PDT
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Rajai's EqA this year is .262. He's projected to be about that for the next few years.
League average is .260.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 8:23 PM PDT
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if EqA calls his 2008 performance average, it's wrong
with the As: .275/.304/.381
in total: .253/.283/.348
even accounting for ballpark, neither of those is average.
and, even if he WAS average, or was projected to be average (about .260/.330/.420), that’s perfectly fine as the downside for a DH who’s probably going to hit much better.
by Sky Kalkman on
Sep 7, 2008 8:56 PM PDT
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Rajai Davis's wOBA probably isn't .265
and that’s based on a .340 scale.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 7, 2008 7:57 PM PDT
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for what it's worth, Cust is at -7 runs by an average of STATS and BIS zone ratings this year
not sure how often he’s played in the field and therefore how he’s been pro-rated to a full season. maybe you locals can help with that.
by Sky Kalkman on
Sep 7, 2008 7:36 PM PDT
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The only flaw I see here
is that Cust won’t, or at least shouldn’t, sign that cheaply. I estimated he’d make about $12 million in arby awards for the next 3 seasons. Even discounting that some for the fact that his contract is guaranteed money, you’re talking at least $9 million for 3 years, probably more like $15M for 4.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 7, 2008 7:59 PM PDT
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If you could really sign Cust for four years at a total of $15M you'd have to do that.
I just think he’ll cost more than that.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 8:25 PM PDT
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+1
I understand the frustration of the Cust-haters out there, but find that the hate is ultimately misplaced.
As the only (healthy) guy on the team with any modicum of power, his shortcomings are highlighted in a way that those of Frank Thomas ‘06, Durazo ’03/’04, etc… were not. If Cust were blessed with half the supporting cast that A’s fans enjoyed in those years, we would all hear a lot less bitching. He may not be the one-man wrecking crew, instant-offense “answer” man that these people want/expect, but the bottom line is that he is a useful and very affordable piece to augment your offense once you find that “answer” – whether that be in the form of one man, or in aggregate.
Oakland’s current offensive situation reminds me so much of the A’s circa 1985, it hurts. Cust is basically a Dave Kingman clone who can take a walk, surrounded by a team of punchless wonders. Hold on to him for a few more years and gather your other pieces, and he becomes our next dynasty’s Dave Parker, sans the silly homerun dance, and +.050 OBP.
by elhefe on
Sep 8, 2008 2:05 PM PDT
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What was Parker's silly dance?
I’m very intrigued.
Dave Parker pre-dates me a bit. I only remember the cross earring.
"are you like some sort of argumentative robot?"
by notsellingjeans on
Sep 8, 2008 2:33 PM PDT
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it was sort of a "jazz hands" version of gunslinging...
I remember one interview where he likened it to the Iggy-Shuffle, but it was more subtle than that. I thought it was odd as a kid, because he was a monstrous guy, (especially around the gut) who would flutter around the bases on these long, skinny legs, doing those kind of mockingly-effeminate hand gestures.
by elhefe on
Sep 8, 2008 4:56 PM PDT
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My two cents...
- I would consider starting Gonzalez most days in CF, but putting Rajai in there at CF for 20-25 of the games against LHP – not a strict platoon, but enough to help bring the overall CF numbers up (Gonzalez is still pretty weak against LHP) and get Rajai’s speed into the lineup on a semi-regular basis. A Gonzalez-Davis combo of this sort could put up an 2009 offensive line of about .260/.340/.440 with maybe 18-20 HRs and 15 SB, while playing a plus CF. Not bad.
- If you reserve two corner spots for Cust, Cunningham, and Sweeney, there’s enough playing time to go around. Plus, if the A’s don’t sign a DH and if Chavez plays on the infield, you can always move Cust to DH when you want to get all three in.
Those are five OFers, meaning Denorfia and Murton are “odd men out” waiting in AAA for the first injury or Bucksaster – Buck has to reprove himself at AAA, but can try to beat out Sweeney or Cunningham for a spot in spring training and if he does, he can flip-flop with the player he beats out. Sacramento’s OF: Buck, Denorfia, Murton, all just waiting for the call.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Sep 7, 2008 3:40 PM PDT
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Rajai Davis...
Is a waste of a roster space, He’s got terrible instincts and baseball knowledge, which often nullifes his speed. He is a luxury similar to Dave Roberts on the Red Sox, late inning pinch runner, defense sub, when the real men are done hitting. The problem with him on the A’s is he is taking up a roster spot better used to find a real man.
They're called RUNS for a reason.
by connie mack on
Sep 7, 2008 3:59 PM PDT
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how can he be a tremendous defender with terrible instincts?
"are you like some sort of argumentative robot?"
by notsellingjeans on
Sep 7, 2008 4:04 PM PDT
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He is getting better -
That matters.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Sep 7, 2008 4:20 PM PDT
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Rajai Davis has played his way into the 09 question.
Until he plays his way out of it, he should be given every chance to succeed. Dude has been tearing it up lately. Maybe he’s found his niche.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
by alox on
Sep 7, 2008 4:19 PM PDT
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I seem to be leaning in this direction as well..
however, he’s only really hit reasonably well for a few weeks now with more regular playing time. For a guy without much power-potential, it would be an awfully risky proposition to give him the starting center field job next season, especially if Cargon comes back up to the big club in a week or so and shows that he has regained his stroke.
At this point, it’s a catch-22 regarding Rajai: he’s not an all-around good enough player to merit starting everyday, and yet he can’t maximize the good things about his game if he’s not starting…
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
by Taj Adib on
Sep 7, 2008 4:28 PM PDT
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I tend to take a traditional view CF as a defensive position.
If he can offer us the occasional double, learn to walk a little more, then I can live with mediocre offensive production. His defense makes his limited use of the bat acceptable.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
by alox on
Sep 7, 2008 4:32 PM PDT
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I'd be more accepting of that position...
if nobody else on the roster seemed like a solid centerfielder, but it seems like Cargon is definitely an above-average fielder in both center and right. If Cargon can make some adjustments to his swing (especially against left-handed pitching) then I would think that he’d be better bet at center long term, due to his power potential.
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
by Taj Adib on
Sep 7, 2008 4:42 PM PDT
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Davis has been an above average CF this year for the A's -- average offense (.262 EqA)
and outstanding defense. He and Cust are the above average players in the OF.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 5:44 PM PDT
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You do realize that that "average" EqA
is hugely boosted by the number of freebie steals he got by way of pinch running, right? And that it ignores, for no reason, his horrific first month with the Giants?
It’s much easier to steal bases when you get to first for free— especially when you are otherwise a horrible hitter like Rajai Davis.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 7, 2008 8:11 PM PDT
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The EqA is basically in line with his projections. It's not as though he's really
a true .240 EqA guy or something.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 8:26 PM PDT
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You do realize that the projections assume that he is pinch running a lot, right?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 7, 2008 8:32 PM PDT
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How much is he pinch running when he's projected at 400 PA per year?
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 8:36 PM PDT
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30 or 40 times
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 7, 2008 8:38 PM PDT
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OK so he's starting 100 games and PR 35 times?
That would be awesome but I can’t imagine anyone’s projecting that.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 8:40 PM PDT
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Don't know why they wouldn't, it's extrapolated from his prior seasons
After this year the projections will assume a lot more PRs and a lot fewer ABs.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 7, 2008 8:41 PM PDT
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They're also projecting an average of 28 SB and 5 CS
That seems improbable in 100 starts and 35 PR
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 8:46 PM PDT
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In 2009-11
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 8:47 PM PDT
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His projected 2009 batting like is .265/.331/.387
which sounds reasonable to me.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 8:49 PM PDT
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reasonable for Davis, maybe
reasonable as a league-average hitter? no.
by Sky Kalkman on
Sep 7, 2008 8:57 PM PDT
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If Davis does that he is a league average offensive player
including SB/CS and GIDP.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 9:03 PM PDT
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SB make up for 50 points of OPS?
Not bloody likely.
In any event, his projections for next year will be worse. His current Marcel is .255/.321/.371.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 7, 2008 9:09 PM PDT
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Why would his projections get worse
after a year where he met his projections?
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 9:30 PM PDT
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His OPS this year is .632
He hasn’t even come close to meeting his projections.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 8, 2008 12:21 AM PDT
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Projected 2008 EqA - .258
Actual 2008 EqA — .262.
OPS is irrelevant for so many reasons in this case. Just to get you started there’s park effects, league effects, value of SB and GIDP.
Since you insist on using it anyway, his projected OPS was .720 in a park neutral, league neutral context. I’d say he’s come pretty close to that.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 8, 2008 12:56 AM PDT
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.262 is his EqA IN OAKLAND
There’s nothing (baseball-wise) that irritates me more than gratuitous statistical cherrypicking to make your argument appear stronger.
You can’t just frigging toss out his awful first 19 plate appearances. By BRAA he goes from being league-average to 3 runs below. Given that he’s made 189 PAs this year, his ACTUAL OFFENSIVE NUMBERS FROM THE WHOLE YEAR put him at 10 runs below when you prorate that to 600 PAs.
And that’s not accounting for the free SB, which are surely worth another couple of runs on top of that.
Even with the most generous possible park and league adjustment (maybe 40 OPS points) he’s not even close to hitting his projection.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 8, 2008 1:42 AM PDT
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Nitpick
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 8, 2008 9:54 AM PDT
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Stats:
Davis: .275/.304/.381
Sweeney: .284/.337/.377
Davis has about half the plate appearances that Sweeney does. If you double Davis’ walks this year from 7 to 14…his rate stats are practically identical to Sweeney’s. Plus, he steals way more bases and has better defense, in center field no less.
I’m not saying he’s actually better than Sweeney, just that there ain’t a whole lotta difference in their rate stats; Sweeney draws more walks, that’s it. I guess what I’m saying is, if we get Rickey to come in and tutor Davis, we might have a real leadoff man here.
"All your baserunner are belong to Greg Smith" ~ walk off bunt
by Philip Christy on
Sep 7, 2008 4:34 PM PDT
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Sweeney = 23 years old, Davis = 27 years old
Not that I don’t see what you’re saying, but Davis is pretty much fully-formed and is in his prime, while Sweeney is still developing, even physically, and could develop more “bulk” in the next year or two and thus up his power numbers while still walking more than Rajai does.
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
by Taj Adib on
Sep 7, 2008 4:52 PM PDT
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I agree with you on this,
but what I’m saying is, if Sweeney doesn’t develop power, and if Davis does learn to walk more often, then Davis is the more valuable player, probably even five years from now, because a skill set like Davis’ tends to erode less quickly.
And whether Sweeney will develop that power or not, nobody knows.
"All your baserunner are belong to Greg Smith" ~ walk off bunt
by Philip Christy on
Sep 7, 2008 4:58 PM PDT
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Understood.
You could also make the argument, in this same context, that even if Sweeney eventually develops more power, he might not show it on the field for another two or three years, whereas Rajai’s existing skill set (+ just a little more patience) could pay immediate dividends to the team.
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
by Taj Adib on
Sep 7, 2008 5:04 PM PDT
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Davis is better now than Sweeney or Gonzalez.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 5:45 PM PDT
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Davis is Streaky
He’s been very hot lately, which brought his average up considerably. But Sweeney has been consistent all year, his average somewhere between .280 and .300. Plus he has a better eye. Plus he’s got more power potential. Plus there’s that five year difference.
I’d love Rajai Davis on the team, as the fifth outfielder, the late innings defensive replacement, and as pinch runner for guys who are slow or injured.
I start the season with Cust, Cunningham and Sweeney in the outfield, and either Eric Chavez or Frank Thomas as DH. Rajai Davis is the other outfielder. With Buck CarGo or Denorfia as the fourth outfielder, depending on spring training, and the other two in AAA to get more seasoning.
I think Murton will be gone by the spring. If he’s not, he’s in that same AAA mix. Unless he begins the season as the A’s starting second baseman, I don’t see Patterson in the mix at all.
by richwol1 on
Sep 7, 2008 7:42 PM PDT
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SHAME ON YOU!
There’s no such thing as streaky.
{runs across AN’s front page naked}
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Sep 7, 2008 7:45 PM PDT
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Now we know that
Nico’s wOBA isn’t .265 either.
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
by iglew on
Sep 7, 2008 10:13 PM PDT
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Even if this was actually true, which it isn't
why is “better now” important in any way to a team that everyone seems to think won’t compete next year?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 7, 2008 8:14 PM PDT
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Can't win. Don't try. Got it.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 8:28 PM PDT
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If you are "trying" to win
you damn well better do something more proactive than trying to squeeze 5 runs out of playing Rajai Davis.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 7, 2008 8:33 PM PDT
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Rajai in CF wasn't suggested as the long term solution.
Just as a very decent stopgap till Carlos or someone else is ready.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 8:37 PM PDT
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Paul, how difficult is this concept?
Don’t play extremely young players until they’ve justified the call-up with good AAA hitting stats.
CarGon hasn’t done that.
In the meantime, use placeholders in the their place, rather than burn service time. Be sure that the placeholders are very good defenders that make your pitchers look and feel good (Hannahan, Davis).
"are you like some sort of argumentative robot?"
by notsellingjeans on
Sep 8, 2008 11:38 AM PDT
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I don't have a problem with this concept in theory
I do think a. that Gonzalez’s AAA numbers are good enough to justify him being called up to MLB, and b. that there is an adjustment period to MLB which most prospects will have to go through at some point, and which he may as well go through now when the team is non-competitive.
Everyone seems to be in agreement that Gonzalez is a potentially extension-worthy player, ie that the A’s may want to keep him beyond his cost-control period. Given that, the exact details of his service time aren’t exceptionally relevant, certainly not relevant enough to impact decisions about whether he should be playing in MLB or not. The difference between age 23 and age 29 is pretty large. The difference between age 23 and age 34 may not be.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 8, 2008 12:52 PM PDT
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Good points
I’m envisioning a scenario where he spents all of ’09 in AAA.
I think that most people here think that is too conservative, and I’ve had these types of back-and-forths enough here (like with Barton in the pre-season, when I had some unpopular thoughts), to know that most fans prefer to see these guys sooner rather than later, and that I’m in the minority.
I’d love to see CarGon stay in Sacramento for almost an entire year in ‘09, and prove that he’s a .900 OPS AAA hitter, then come up for good in ‘10, when he’s 24 years old.
At that point, you could give him an Evan Longoria “we have faith in you” extension, prior to him even having a year of service time, and extend CarGon for 8 years out to age 32.
I just look at Ryan Howard’s most recent arbitration case and think, even pretty good players are going to be making 10 million in arby in a few years. The difference between that and the $400K minimum is gigantic. The more you can preserve a guy’s 400 grand 0-3 years, the better.
"are you like some sort of argumentative robot?"
by notsellingjeans on
Sep 8, 2008 2:07 PM PDT
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You may be right
and let me emphasize, I’m really not in favor of rushing prospects as a general rule (see the MMMM thread for this week for an example of this). I just feel like Carlos Gonzalez is somewhat of a unique player, both personally and in the context of the A’s farm system as it stands.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 9, 2008 4:51 PM PDT
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It may be an imperfect stat...
…but nothing makes a pitcher feel all warm-and-fuzzy like a W.
"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds
by UncleLeo on
Sep 8, 2008 2:31 PM PDT
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Davis / Sweeney / Cunningham
How permanently Ty van Burkleo has sorted out Davis’ swing needs to be seen over more PAs. Davis said Ty helped him with both a hole and to use his body instead of just his hands. His line since Aug 1 is 355/ 385/ 500 over 65 PAs. If he can keep close to this until the end of the season, he should be the starting CF.
Sweeney has gone in the opposite direction since Aug 1. However lets see if he can get back to his early season form before the end of September.
Cunningham looks good but on so few PAs we need September to have a better sense of what he can do.
Buck or CarGon as 4th outfielder.
Cust as DH/ LF.
by pyrfan on
Sep 8, 2008 12:00 AM PDT
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Cust has to be there somewhere.
Cust should be hitting 5th in a major league lineup. He’s a Pat Burrell-type player in that he’s got good power, can’t play the field too well, and knows how to take a walk. He’s not as good as Burrell but he’s of that type.
In a decent lineup people would say “Cust is a great hitter to have in that lineup.” But because we’re expecting him to be an elite hitter, naturally we’re disappointed because he isn’t.
Ya know… why not add Bay and Burrell? It might cost $30 million per year but our lineup would be fantastic.
1 Sweeney CF
2 Suzuki C
3 Bay RF
4 Burrell LF
5 Cust DH
6 Barton/Chavez 1B
7 Crosby SS
8 Patterson 2B
9 Baisley/?? 3B
At the very least this lineup would turn the 3-2 losses into 4-3 wins.
Someone should do the math. Would this (along with the improvement of young pitchers and hitters) get us 15-20 more wins?
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
by brenarlo on
Sep 7, 2008 4:27 PM PDT
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PS
This would also give Carlos another year at AAA to fine-tune that awesome ability.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
by brenarlo on
Sep 7, 2008 4:28 PM PDT
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I actually like Cust hitting 2nd
It recognizes that his biggest asset is his ability to get on base and score runs, more than his ability to drive them in (which you can’t do all that well with a .230 batting average).
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Sep 7, 2008 4:39 PM PDT
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I'd go for it.
Cust would be much more appreciated if he wasn’t supposed to be our Manny Ramirez.
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
by brenarlo on
Sep 7, 2008 4:45 PM PDT
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Actually...
Suzuki’s OBP is only like .17 behind Cust’s. Would the fact that Suzuki would score on more singles and doubles (because he’s faster) make up for the couple more times that Cust gets on base?
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did." -Yogi Berra
by brenarlo on
Sep 7, 2008 5:13 PM PDT
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As a catcher
I think it makes a lot of sense to bat Suzuki near the bottom of the lineup, one less PA every other game is probably helpful in keeping the wear and tear down on the catcher. Plus you want your higher average guys hitting after your high walk OBP guys, to take advantage of 1st to 3rd and 2nd to home situations.
They're called RUNS for a reason.
by connie mack on
Sep 9, 2008 12:33 AM PDT
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My Personal Opinion (which is right)
In order of importance to me for next year (this is assuming we get no one new and have to deal with what we have):
1. Sweeney (if he stays healthy and gets another year of big league pitching, we could be looking at a great 4 and a half tool player)
2. Aaron Cunningham (this is assuming that he continues hitting decent to above average throughout September, but his composure looks great up there, i like seeing a bad ball hitter like him make contact on a ball anywhere around the plate)
3. Rajai Davis (surprise surprise!)- I’m not advocating giving him a starting role, but he is the perfect denfensive replacement pinch runner kind of guy that can really shake a team up in the late innings. I love the way he plays the game and think that A’s need to keep him around, at least as long as he has wheels and a good defensive eye.
4. Jack Cust- again, assuming we don’t trade anyone, he is going to be around and is a big league hitter. If not traded, he still sticks with the team.
5/6- Cargon and Buck (in that order)- The reason I put them together is that I think they both need to prove themselves in spring training and potentially battle each other out for a spot on the club. I would give Gonzalez the initial advantage, but he is still young and leaving him in AAA won’t hurt his development (maybe just his ego).
7, 8, 9, 10- The rest of ‘em. I would give Murton a chance at a spot if he rakes in Spring Training, but he really doesn’t seem to be in the A’s long term plans, I really think he is a filler in a potential trade, same possibly with Denorfia, I would give him a similar background going into spring.
Herrerra and Robnett both need a strong full year in Sacto and maybe could be the guy if somebody (or a few people) slump or go down in the year.
I guess it never hurts to have outfield depth, but everybody needs to step it up this year.
Good day.
by stranahanahan on
Sep 7, 2008 5:42 PM PDT
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What's half a tool?
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 5:47 PM PDT
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{drops pants}
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Sep 7, 2008 6:47 PM PDT
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Dunn, Davis and Buck is the correct answer! Cust at DH. (Option 4)
LF - Sign Dunn - I changed my mind from Teixeira since I believe in Barton now and I don’t believe they’ll really sign Manny. We need a big time hitter
CF — Davis is better than Gonzalez and Sweeney at the moment. Carlos in AAA, Sweeney is 5th OF and Dunn caddy or trade bait
RF — Buck, when healthy, is the best remaining OF. Platoon him with Cunningham to keep him healthy and ease Cunningham into the majors
DH — Cust is the best hitter on the team, and would be 2nd to Dunn.
AAA — Carlos replaces Davis when he improves to the point where he’s the better player. Murton and Denorfia are trade bait and Cunningham/Davis insurance. Keep Herrera on the 40-man another year and hope he can turn into a lefty masher. Robnett is DFA.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 5:55 PM PDT
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I'm not sure how I achieved the strikethrough on "Sign Dunn" but I didn't mean for it to be there.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 5:55 PM PDT
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Yes but we're talking about 2009
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 6:13 PM PDT
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So, Buck is going to get better next year but Sweeney isn't?
by mikev on
Sep 7, 2008 7:20 PM PDT
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Buck might get better next year or not, but Sweeney won't.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 7:29 PM PDT
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Because you're really Jack Cust.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
by alox on
Sep 7, 2008 6:34 PM PDT
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Cust is (anecdotally, visually) far better in LF than Dunn
Dunn playing defense looks like Will Ferrell playing the title role in a Teresa of Avila biopic.
If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Sep 7, 2008 6:20 PM PDT
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I haven't seen Dunn much but Cust looks pretty bad to me. Maybe the worst I've ever seen
on a regular basis. And I saw Matt Stairs and Terrence Long.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 7:01 PM PDT
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Uh, really?
Just on the basis of watching them field, I think Emil is significantly worse in the field than Cust.
If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Sep 8, 2008 10:12 AM PDT
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Would you say that that has changed over the course of this year?
ie: was Brown better than Cust at the start of the year, but now with practice is Cust better? (I know that this is a leading question, but I"d still like your answer.)
They're called RUNS for a reason.
by connie mack on
Sep 9, 2008 12:35 AM PDT
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In fairness to Emil...
Emil was, at the beginning of the year, expected to practice and fill in at three different positions.
I’m sure that Cust as told at the beginning of the year, “When you’re in the field, you’ll be in left”, and they gave him as many reps as possible in one place to help him try to become relatively competent.
More was asked of Emil defensively. (I’m not saying that he’s good at it, mind you).
"are you like some sort of argumentative robot?"
by notsellingjeans on
Sep 9, 2008 10:07 AM PDT
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when all of a sudden
is cust the best hitter on the team?
by robbo650 on
Sep 7, 2008 6:21 PM PDT
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let me save you the trouble.

get it?
by oakinboston on
Sep 7, 2008 6:28 PM PDT
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It's not sudden
It’s been true since last May…
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 7, 2008 8:18 PM PDT
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I vote for option four.
It’s making me really sad to look at that list. I’ll be happy if one of the ten outfielders listed (I’m not counting Cust, because he isn’t an outfielder) has an average season in MLB next year, and I’ll be shocked if two of them do. I think Cunningham and Gonzalez have the potential to be above-average at some point in their futures, but everyone else on that list is a fourth outfielder at best (Sweeney, Buck, Murton, Davis because he can run) or belongs in Midland forever at worst (Herrera, Robnett, Denorfia).
The A’s need an outfielder who’s way better than Cunningham and Gonzalez’ ceiling if they ever want to win anything, so they should go get one.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on
Sep 7, 2008 6:17 PM PDT
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Name some OFs out there "way better than Gonzalez's ceiling"
I’ll get it started:
Grady Sizemore
…
..
.
Can't get enough of the Oakland A's? Visit Oaktown Awesomer's
by iamawesomer on
Sep 7, 2008 6:33 PM PDT
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Just playing along:
Adam Jones? The Uptons? Rocco Baldelli, magically healed of his mitochondrial woes?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Sep 7, 2008 6:50 PM PDT
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No way on Jones or Uptonseses
I took jeepers to mean an OF right now who’s better than Gonzalez’s ceiling.
I think Jones and Gonzalez’s ceilings may be kinda similar as an overall player, though Jones is made up more of D and Carlos of O (I think Carlos is still slightly higher overall). Justin Upton’s ceiling is higher than both, BJ i dunno he’s getting up in age now he’s probably close to what we can expect his ceiling to be.
Magical Baldelli though, that’s a ceiling none of those guys can touch.
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by iamawesomer on
Sep 7, 2008 7:08 PM PDT
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It has traces of unicorn dust, for one thing
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Sep 7, 2008 7:26 PM PDT
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BJ Upton is like 23.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 7, 2008 8:19 PM PDT
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But Carlos is just 22. He's a baby.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 8:28 PM PDT
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I guess I should look up my DOB's more
I remember him being taked about as a prospect in 03 I guess that was his first year.
Can't get enough of the Oakland A's? Visit Oaktown Awesomer's
by iamawesomer on
Sep 7, 2008 8:59 PM PDT
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Um . . .
Manny Ramirez?
Magglio Ordonez?
Ichiro?
it is not possible to strategize while the ball is coming towards you
by eastcoasta'sfan on
Sep 7, 2008 7:22 PM PDT
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Mags is pretty awful defensively, I don’t think his O makes up enough for that to be higher than Gonzalez’s ceiling
The other two are close, I think Manny’s D (while pretty bad) has been made much worse by the media/fenway over the years. He’s probably higher.
Ichiro I don’t know. There’s so little power and I would think Carlos plays comparable D in RF, I dont’ think he quite makes the cut.
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by iamawesomer on
Sep 7, 2008 7:44 PM PDT
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Shouldn't someone say Beltran?
Considering that’s the high end that we all concede Gonzalez won’t reach.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Sep 7, 2008 7:46 PM PDT
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They almost booed Delgado out of New York in late May
Not so much these days.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Sep 7, 2008 7:48 PM PDT
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You've got to be kidding
Magglio Ordonez is a freaking hitting machine. I like Carlos Gonzalez, but there’s no way he’s ever going to hit like Magglio Ordonez.
Eastcoasta’sfan listed just a few of the players who serve as good examples. It’s not useful to pick apart players that can actually hit because of their defense, or because some sabermetric trend or tidbit makes them less than perfect. The A’s need outfielders that can hit—really hit—regardless of whether or not their defense is ten runs below average or because their home/road spilts against right-handed Venezuelans are really poor.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on
Sep 7, 2008 8:10 PM PDT
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I just spit milk through my nose!
Blasted rh Venezuelans!
Save the thesaurus for when you are in front of the judge. When speaking of the A's, speak with your heart on...................your sleeve!
by norcalfan on
Sep 7, 2008 8:23 PM PDT
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Buck isn't a 4th OF at best. At best he's a 1st OF.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 7:03 PM PDT
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this coming from the same guy
who said that sweeney is a 4th of at best?!?!
ridiculous…
by stranahanahan on
Sep 7, 2008 11:57 PM PDT
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Your pessimism is morose
but also ridiculous.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 7, 2008 8:20 PM PDT
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Your commentary is insightful
and impressively detailed.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on
Sep 7, 2008 9:32 PM PDT
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Quanity < Quality
The A’s outfield situation certainly demonstrates this. Unless Gonzales drastically improves, this looks like a below average outfield at best. At least there is the infield. Oh fuck!
by Pucking Insane on
Sep 7, 2008 6:52 PM PDT
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I think fans are underestimating what Gonzalez and Cunningham can become
In particular, folks are scared away by his 2 for 39 slide. He’s 22, supremely talented, and smart enough to learn how to make adjustments. He’ll probably never walk a ton and he’ll probably never mash lefties, but he has a good chance to become a very, very fine player. Cunningham is less of a sure thing, but I have a good feeling about him maximizing his potential. He is also 22.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Sep 7, 2008 6:57 PM PDT
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I think Cunningham could develop into Xavier Nady.
Convince me I’m underestimating him.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 7:07 PM PDT
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I really don't know this, but did
Nady ever exhibit that sort of power in the minors?
by Pucking Insane on
Sep 7, 2008 7:08 PM PDT
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His minor league SLG was .526, but he didn't get there till he was 22.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 7:12 PM PDT
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Patience.
It would seem that you are preaching patience, and I agree with that, ultimately; however, and yes the sample size is small, but there is something disconcerting about seeing your top prospect being so ineffective at times.
I realize not everyone can be Hanley Ramirez. Note to AN: Hanley is not recognized by the spell checker, but given the A’s inability to develop an above average position player since Tejada or Eric (which one ; 0 ), I’ll have my doubts about the next crop, fair or unfair.
by Pucking Insane on
Sep 7, 2008 7:08 PM PDT
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I think the younger you bring guys up the more you have to expect them
to have major bumps in the road. Look at the guys who have been the most inconsistent, i.e. horrible when they’re bad: Carlos Gonzalez, Gio Gonzalez, and Sean Gallagher. What they have in common is that they are all 22 years old.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Sep 7, 2008 7:30 PM PDT
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And then there's Crosby
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 7:31 PM PDT
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Crosby is also 22,
if you count IQ.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Sep 7, 2008 7:31 PM PDT
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I remember a guy who came up when he was 23 and had a crappy first mini-season
Then he played most of the next season and looked like an anemic glove-only shortstop. Four years later he won the MVP.
What was his name again. I think he was from Latin America.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 7, 2008 8:24 PM PDT
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i thought he was 25
They're called RUNS for a reason.
by connie mack on
Sep 7, 2008 11:27 PM PDT
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Maybe he will have been 25 soon
if you follow me.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 8, 2008 12:23 AM PDT
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jason bay strikes out a ton more than he walks, almost a 2 to 1
since, he has been with boston it’s actually been a 3 to 1 (33:11)
by stranahanahan on
Sep 7, 2008 7:02 PM PDT
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what im saying is
burrell has consistently been more reliable and better overall than bay.
by stranahanahan on
Sep 7, 2008 7:03 PM PDT
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Also, how will Bay do during a drought?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Sep 7, 2008 7:05 PM PDT
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Just fine. He's not Jason Reservoir.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 7:08 PM PDT
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You have a dry sense of humor.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Sep 7, 2008 7:31 PM PDT
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Um..that's humidor
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 7:34 PM PDT
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how many of these young OFs should really still be in AAA?
i mean, they’re a bit rushed to the majors, no? nobody should be thinking that their current performances are what they’ll do in a year or two, right?
in one sense, a quantity of prospects is a great thing. you don’t know which ones will turn out to be really good, but you’re bound to get a couple who do. it’s a little worrisome right now, but patience will be paid.
by Sky Kalkman on
Sep 7, 2008 7:42 PM PDT
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That's the trouble with fanspeak -
Fans, by nature, are prone to seeing what’s happening now as how it will always be. So Gio and Gallagher suck, Braden is promising, Sweeney is solid but Carlos Gonzalez may not be that good after all, and Cunningham will always get a hit or strike out. None of which is especially accurate.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Sep 7, 2008 7:44 PM PDT
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maybe it's worth posting some of these guys' minor league numbers
or their MLEs.
by Sky Kalkman on
Sep 7, 2008 7:45 PM PDT
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That's the beauty of Rajai, or Hannahan even, to a lesser extent
Nobody confuses them as being good players overall, BUT, they are good (great, in Rajai’s case) defensive players who help the pitching staff and provide a bridge to the prospects. They won’t be starting in two years…but in the meantime, they ensure that you don’t have to rush anyone or waste service time before a player has earned a starting slot.
That has value.
"are you like some sort of argumentative robot?"
by notsellingjeans on
Sep 7, 2008 8:11 PM PDT
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There is nothing beautiful or valuable about crappy baseball players.
Nor is worrying about service time a way to build a winning organization. Agreed that it isn’t wise to rush players (see Cubs, Chicago).
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on
Sep 7, 2008 8:17 PM PDT
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Rajai is not crappy.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 8:31 PM PDT
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he's pretty much the definition of replacement-level
maybe slightly better overall thanks to his fielding.
by Sky Kalkman on
Sep 7, 2008 8:59 PM PDT
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Alas, he is.
He’s a great pinch-runner, though.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on
Sep 7, 2008 9:43 PM PDT
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Play CarGon for the future
Since he’s our highest ceiling guy, and we’ already brought him up, I say we need to play him until he shows that he’s stuck, like this Aug. We need to build him up for the future, any prolonged inactivity on the ML team, or extended time in the minors is going to hurt his progress. No offense to all the other guys on the list, developing CarGon into a dominant player is the highest priority for this team in the OF.
With that in mind, I would put CarGon in CF. I say we should pick up Cust this off season, and play him in LF, lefty/righty platoon. When Cust is not in LF, give him a few DH AB once a while, other DH AB goes to Chavez. Let Sweeney and Buck fight it out for the other OF spot. Rajay will be gone unless he gets his OBP up. Even if we keep all of CarGon, Cust, Cunningham, Sweeney, Buck, having 4.5 OF + 0.5 DH is not too bad.
by asfansince1989 on
Sep 7, 2008 7:58 PM PDT
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Cust + Cunningham in LF platoon I mean
by asfansince1989 on
Sep 7, 2008 7:59 PM PDT
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Why platoon Cust? He's pretty decent vs lefties.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 8:31 PM PDT
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So is Cunningham vs. righties
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 7, 2008 8:34 PM PDT
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Not sure about that in MLB
maybe his minor league numbers are better, but in only 13 AB vs RHP with the A’s, he’s not hitting that great, .231 with 6K. I’m sure the numbers are meaningless at this point, but I don’t want to throw him against some tough righty just yet before he’s got his bearings in the majors.
by asfansince1989 on
Sep 8, 2008 10:33 AM PDT
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.... it's 13 at bats
There should be a California law stating that anyone who cites baseball hitting statistics on the basis of less than 100 at-bats gets tossed into Lake Tahoe with weights tied to their feet.
Fortunately you’d be covered by the ex post facto rule.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 8, 2008 11:06 AM PDT
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Didn't I say the stats are meaningless?
Just want to stress that I don’t want our young Cunningham to face tough righties at major league level on a regular basis at this point.
by asfansince1989 on
Sep 8, 2008 2:52 PM PDT
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Why?
No way he gets better if he doesn’t face the best.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 9, 2008 4:52 PM PDT
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Well, you could be right
just that I have seen more A’s hitters with difficulties dealing with unfavorable LH/RH matchups, plus the fact that A’s seem to be rushing up a lot of young guys this season, and Cunningham only had <80 AAA at bat, it makes me worry that he’ll turn into a Buck in 09 if we push him too fast, and put him in too difficult of a position.
by asfansince1989 on
Sep 10, 2008 3:44 PM PDT
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I meant play Cust at LF only half of the time and play him the rest at DH
This leaves us half of DH to fill, where we can put Chavez or maybe Thomas, M. Sweeney, etc.
by asfansince1989 on
Sep 8, 2008 10:29 AM PDT
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If we'd just BUY a team...
…it’d be done.
"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds
by UncleLeo on
Sep 7, 2008 9:02 PM PDT
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Alright, so
I guess we’re assuming no big signings here (that’s what the other thread is for, amirite?).
I think Carlos Gonzalez will be good to go next year. Might be wrong, but eh. I’m guessing his walk rate will improve when he feels more confident at the plate.
Aaron Cunningham has earned an extended look. I’d start him everyday.
Jack Cust has a starter’s job, the only question is where. If Chavez is healthy, he’s probably DHing all or most of the time, forcing Cust to left.
So that’s between 1 and all 3 of your starters. Travis Buck is player #4, so he may or may not be starting but he’ll be getting a lot of time regardless.
As regards Ryan Sweeney: I’d sit him down and say “Son [OK, I myself would not say this, because it would be silly. But I’m imagining I’m Beane here for this chat. Bear with me.], you’re a good player right now. But you’ve plateaued. What you’re doing right now isn’t good enough to make you a great player. I want to rebuild your swing to generate more power. The numbers are going to be ugly for a while, and we don’t care about that. What we care about is you becoming a great hitter.” Then I’d send him to AAA for 2009 or maybe even to extended spring for a few months, and then see if he can put up 15 HR with the new swing. Get some mechanics experts to consult.
The rest of the roster has to depend on the performances from here on out, including next spring. I would give Denorfia a lot of ABs, because he looks healthy now. He looks like the guy who hit in the mid .300s with power in ‘05-’06, not the slap hitter of early this season. Murton looks as bad right now as Denorfia looks good, but he could be a platoon caddy for Gonzalez or Buck. That’s 6 guys, so the team is covered through at least the 4th outfielder spot (if Cust is DHing and C-Gon is in AAA). Patterson and Cust can split emergency duties if need be.
If there’s still room on the roster, I’d keep Davis around, but I’d really try to deal him as a roleplayer in the offseason, even if it’s just for cash. He’s not really worth the roster spot. I wish the A’s had already traded him. He’s useful on a playoff roster, but he’s really of no use to a rebuilding club.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 7, 2008 9:03 PM PDT
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I doubt Davis has much trade value. He was acquired on waivers remember.
Sweeney OTOH might have rebuilt his trade value this year. He would probably be a pretty decent CF on a team that didn’t have better defensive options like Carlos and Rajai. He’s the guy you trade. Also I’m not conceding that we’re not signing Dunn.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Sep 7, 2008 9:07 PM PDT
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I'd trade R. Sweeney and Harden for Colby Rasmus
:-(
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakg


