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Join the debate: 8 hitters, 1 roster slot... who to sign?

1979.

 

Consider that a hint towards a shocking revelation still to come. But before we start looking back in time let’s focus on the here and now. Your 2008 Oakland currently sport the lowest cumulative team batting average, on-base percentage and slugging numbers in major league baseball. The A’s have scored 554 runs in 141 games played, putting them on pace to score fewer then 640 runs for the season. To put that in perspective, that’s 100 runs fewer then the A’s scored last year when everyone thought the A’s featured a below-average offense. 640 runs in a season would be the lowest number of runs the A’s scored in a non-strike season since… you guessed it… 1979!

 

How’s that for freaking pathetic.

Star-divide

A few days back I posted a Staturday article that discussed how the A’s had spent their money on player salaries and bonuses in 2007 and 2008. I pointed out that the 2009 roster, as currently constructed, would run approximately $39 million and that if the A’s management was willing to invest the same amount of money as they did in 2007 (roughly $83 million) then they could continue to invest heavily in acquiring amateur talent through the draft and the international markets while leaving $30 million that could go towards the big league roster. Hey, I’m all for developing home-grown talent but sometimes instant gratification is nice too. The A’s have a unique (for them) opportunity to go after a premier offensive player via free agency during the next two off-seasons and quite frankly, they have the need.

(Here’s a link to my previous article for anyone who wants to take a closer look at the dollar figures, I don’t feel like repeating myself.)

The question is, who should the A’s sign? I’m not interested in a one-year-wonder, some fading vet that we can maybe milk one last year of production out of. Been there, done that and with a $30 million wallet I want to move to the high rollers table. The A’s need to find a cornerstone player, someone who’ll anchor the line-up for the next 5-7 years and I don’t really care about what position he plays. Kurt Suzuki is the only player guaranteed a starting job next year as far as I’m concerned and every pending free agent on the roster can proceed to the nearest exit. Yes, that includes you too Mr. Ellis. Love the glove but you quit hitting, your arm is about to fall off and I’m not interested in spending the money to glue you back together.

So what are we looking for to spend our money on? Premier offensive ability and health headlines the list, with the FA-in-question preferably young enough to count on for the next half-decade or so. The A’s need to maximize their bang for the buck, as it were, and with that in mind there are 8 free agents over the next 2 years that could fit the bill. They all have their pros and cons, which is why I’m including a poll for people to vote for their preferred pick. Be prepared to defend you’re rational in the comments, ‘cause it’s only the future of the A’s we’re talking about here.

Let the debate begin.

2009 Options (DOB)

 

Mark Teixeira (4/11/80)  137 G  506 AB  304/407/540  29 HR  84/87 BB/K

The cream of the FA crop in 2009 and 2010. A switch hitter with excellent numbers, good defense at 1B, the youngest FA-to-be and is probably kind to children and small animals. He’s going to be on every big market wish list and the Angels have already said they’d do everything they can to re-sign him and not let him enter the free agent market. But his agent is Scott Boras and Teixeira has made it known that he wants his next contract to be his last contract, Mr. Boras has whispered a 10 year deal will be necessary to land his client. Dollar wise, you’re looking at a minimum of $20 million a year and Baltimore owner Peter Angelos has long coveted Teixeira so don’t expect the annual number to drop any. If you pick Teixeira in the poll, you’re saying yes to a 10 year deal at $20-$25 million annual.

 

Pat Burrell (10/10/76)  139 G  475 AB  255/371/516  30 HR  90/121 BB/K

A word to the wise, Burrell is not merely a creation of Citizens Bank Park as his 2008 Home/Road splits show he’s been much better away from his hitter friendly home park. Burrell offers more long term RH power then the A’s have had since McGwire played for Oakland. He’ll probably be willing to sign a typical 4-5 year deal plus an option (as opposed to Tex’s decade-long guaranteed pact) for $15 million annual. Burrell rates as a good, but not great hitter and if he slips as he gets older it wouldn’t take much before he fell from good to above average or less. Flip side to that is sticking him at DH could preserve him through his time with the A’s. Availability could be an issue since the Phillies would like to bring him back and Burrell has expressed a desire to stay.

 

Manny Ramirez (5/30/72)  133 G  480 AB  323/424/575  30 HR  75/107 BB/K

Manny is high maintenance. At 36 he’s the oldest FA-to-be in either group and he’s already played in as many games this year as he did in either of the two previous seasons. He quit in Boston, forcing them to trade him even as they push for another title shot.

He’s also been one of the best RH hitters in baseball for the past 15 or so years.

Manny got shipped to the Dodgers and is kicking ass in one of the most notorious pitcher’s parks in baseball. Even agent Scott Boras recognizes that Manny is looking at 2-3 year guaranteed deal this off-season, although I’m not sure if there will be any willingness to come down from the $20 million Manny “earned” in 2008.

 

Adam Dunn (11/9/79)  136 G  440 AB  239/391/520  35 HR  107/140 BB/K

Dunn is the deluxe in 3 True Outcome hitters and he’s destined for an AL DH role sometime soon. Some would argue that he’d just be a more expensive version of Jack Cust and they might be right, assuming of course that the 2009 version of Cust hits more like the 2007 version did and not like the 2008 version is. If that doesn’t happen then Adam Dunn’s career .901 OPS says “Bite Me” to the Custalicious crowd. Dunn will probably be looking for a 6 year deal worth $16 million annual.

2010 Options (DOB)

 

Vlad Guerrero (2/9/76)

The Angels hold a team option on Vlad for the 2009 season and I don’t see any reason why they wouldn’t exercise it. A physical freak, LA has been worried about his body breaking down the last couple seasons and would prefer to have Vlad DH more often. Alas, Vlad’s ego nixes that idea time and again. Would that change after next season? I’m not going to speculate on years/dollars for Vlad or the rest of the 2010 crowd because their 2009 performance will go a long way in determining those values.

 

Matt Holliday (1/15/80)

Holliday gets a lot of grief because he plays in one of the best hitter’s parks in baseball. And while Coors Field has certainly boosted his numbers it should be noted that Holliday’s road OPS has gone from .815 to .859 to .877 over the past 3 seasons. A Scott Boras client, you can be sure that Holliday will make a lot of money in 2010.

 

Jason Bay (9/20/78)

Bay has proven to be fairly durable and productive since breaking in to the Show in 2004. Certainly a step below the elite hitters, he and Rick Ankiel are the only outfielders on this list with the athleticism to keep playing in the field for the bulk of their next contract. Like Pat Burrell, once he starts to slip it’s not a far drop to him being merely an average hitter.

 

Rick Ankiel (7/19/79)

A bit of a stretch to make this list considering he has barely a full season’s worth of at bats in his big league career, 25 HRs and a .854 OPS is more impressive then anything Adrian Beltre has done since 2004. I could have put Chipper Jones here but he’ll be 38 in April, 2010 and I guess I see him going the Cal Ripken/Tony Gwynn route.

There are those who’ll probably advocate waiting until Eric Chavez clears the books, presumably after the 2010 season, before going after a premier FA hitter. The problem with that is the A’s need offensive help NOW and adding a quality veteran bat could help take some pressure off our young hitters. And before anyone says that the “pressure” argument is a myth, consider that Travis Buck has come out and said that he put pressure on himself to try and replace Swisher and Kotsay in the line-up. That put him in the wrong place mentally and combined with his physical problems to ruin his 2008 season. Let’s give the young hitters a rock to cling to, someone who can be “The Man” and allow Cunningham and Barton and Gonzalez to develop without the added pressure of needing to carry the line-up.

I realize that during Billy Beane’s tenure the A’s haven’t exactly gone after premier free agents. You know what else they haven’t done? Post back-to-back losing seasons. The A’s have always preached an atmosphere of winning in their minor league system, often leaving prospects in Sacramento to experience a play-off run rather then promoting them to Oakland on September 1. The A’s need to re-establish an atmosphere of winning at the big league level, both for the players and the fans, and exploiting this opportunity to sign a premier hitter is a significant step in that direction. Don’t misunderstand, I do not think the A’s are one big bat away from contention. If anything, they need to add two good bats and have their young guys develop into the hitters they’re expected to be. The A’s have the youth in place and the cash to buy one of the bats without impacting the rest of the roster. There is no good reason not to pursue one of the 8 players I brought up in this post.

As for the second quality bat I briefly mentioned…

Well, I’ve got an idea about a trade that'll pull that off.

 

 

 

 

Poll
Which free agent hitter should the A's sign? READ THE POST BEFORE YOU VOTE!!!
Mark Teixeira (2009)
32 votes
Pat Burrell (2009)
24 votes
Adam Dunn (2009)
38 votes
Manny Ramirez (2009)
20 votes
Vlad Guerrero (2010)
4 votes
Matt Holliday (2010)
39 votes
Jason Bay (2010)
34 votes
Rick Ankiel (2010)
12 votes
Someone else. Comment below.
25 votes
No one! I enjoy misery and inept offense is a turn on.
47 votes

275 votes | Poll has closed

5 recs | Comment 704 comments

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Comments

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I think a better course might be to package

some of the A’s young arms for a good young hitter. I like several of the FAs but for various reasons (which you summarized) none of them sound like the way to go.

by OaklandSi on Sep 6, 2008 7:12 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree that trading for a bat is an option

However, I don’t think the A’s have the depth to trade for two bats that could contribute next year without it hurting the farm system. That’s why I advocate buying a bat on the FA market and then trading for another bat.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 7:16 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like Burrell but he's probably staying in Philly

and as we know it’s risky to give lots of $$ and a multiyear contract to a player his age *unless he was a superstar, which he isn’t).

by OaklandSi on Sep 6, 2008 7:22 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So grover

who is the player you have in mind for a trade? I told you in your last diary that my idea was to bring back Giambi for 2-3 years as DH/backup 1st baseman FA signing and to make a trade for Jimmy Rollins at SS with either Cardenas, Patterson, or Weeks at 2nd in 2009-2010.

I would love to see Manny in the lineup but even if the Å’s offered him mega bucks, I just don’t think he would sign with the A’s.

by mrod on Sep 6, 2008 7:47 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rollins is really kind of mediocre

At the very least, his perceived value is light-years ahead of his actual value.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 7:52 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

why do you say that?

2007 NL MVP is mediocre?

Pleez esplayn tu mee!

by mrod on Sep 6, 2008 7:53 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That MVP was the worst joke of an award in recent memory

His OBP is typically average, his defense is fringe-average at best, and his power, while plus for a middle infielder, isn’t anything special.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 7:57 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I have no memory

that’s my problem……….too much cerveza.

by mrod on Sep 6, 2008 7:59 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just want to clarify on signing a type-A

If our June 1st-round pick is in the top 10, it’s protected and the team losing the type-A gets a supplemental-round pick, right?

Because we’d need to take losing a 1st-rounder into account when thinking about depleting our farm system for one of these guys.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Sep 6, 2008 7:19 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's the top 15 to be protected

But we’d lose our second rounder instead.

"Innings eater? Depends on whether you want delicious innings or burnt, moldy innings. Kirk Saarloos is the Hot Pockets of inning eaters." - Gallagher's Watermelons

by notsellingjeans on Sep 6, 2008 7:32 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If not for the Boras factor, I'd go Holliday

Since I think his body type makes him a good bet to stay healthy and productive for years, I settled on Bay.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 7:37 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+2

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Sep 6, 2008 8:43 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What about Carl Crawford?

He has club options for both 2009 & 2010 at a modest 8.25 & 10 million.

I’m sure the Rays would probably opt to sign Crawford. How does it work if the A’s traded for Crawford, would those club options transfer over?

Crawford is only 27, and while he doesnt fit the injury free bill (at least this year), he has tons of upside. Since you said you don’t care about position, he would be my pick. His speed is obvious, but he still has quite a bit of pop. He posted .800+ OPS seasons 3 years prior to this season.

He would be a risk though on the injury front.

"Who's this Seagon guy? Is he in A-ball or something?" - Billy Beane

by pickinmachine on Sep 6, 2008 7:45 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't really want anything to do with someone

who chooses not to play a more difficult position because he “doesn’t like it.”

On top of which, he isn’t that good.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 7:50 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why dont you think he isn't "that good"

He would easily be the A’s best overall hitter avg wise, and would probably be the A’s best power hitter next to Jack Cust. Factor in his speed and above average defense, I’d say he is pretty good to me.

I don’t think he is anymore of a headcase than anyone else who’s played for the A’s before

"Who's this Seagon guy? Is he in A-ball or something?" - Billy Beane

by pickinmachine on Sep 6, 2008 8:03 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The A's offense is fucking terrible

Damn nearly 50% of major league baseball would be “the team’s best hitter average-wise.”

He doesn’t walk and he has the same number of career HR as renowned slugger Mark Ellis.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 8:10 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's pretty good

the problem is what the DRays would want in return. And whether a LF of his production would be worth it.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Sep 7, 2008 12:38 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's probably overrated

but he is pretty good, once D is taken into account.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Sep 7, 2008 12:42 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I voted Manny

I think of the group you identified, grover, he’ll probably require the least amount of total money to retain his services and probably has the most reliable (not the best, or the least likely to decline, but most reliable) projection over the next 3 years (i.e., before Carter and anyone else with power make it up).

Tex, as you pointed out, is going to require massive amounts of guaranteed money, and will surely get it, from the Angels, Orioles, or a third party (Mets?). Burrell may likely both outproduce Manny over the next 3 years, but he’ll require a lot more money/years, and as you say, Philly may push hard to keep him. Dunn I almost voted for, in the thought that he might remain undervalued on the market, but I have a feeling his “undervaluing” on the trade market the last 2 years may have more to do with Cinci’s methods and demands in marketing him.

I’m opposed in principle to signing Vlad, because he will break down the instant he leaves the proximity of the magic Flintstones boulders. Holliday I’m not sold on, Bay will likely be extended by the Sox this year or next before hitting FA, and Ankiel’s too much of a wild card (pun intended).

That said, I don’t think Beane will actually sign any of these guys. (I’m guessing Manny actually ends up in … SF.)

If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Sep 6, 2008 7:47 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not sure I agree about Manny and dollars

He worked hard to get free from two $20million club options – I have to think he’s looking for more, not less, than that on the open market.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 8:04 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

maybe, maybe not

Even if he is asking for $20m+/y, he’s still going to require fewer years than any of the others. When Burrell has descended to slightly-above-average and is being paid $25m/y, Manny’s contract will already be 2 years expired.

If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Sep 6, 2008 8:09 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That is one of my concerns about Burrell -

Just as the A’s are getting better, Burrell figures to be getting worse.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 8:12 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wait around for a hitter who will be "getting better" during a free agent contract

and your team will be “getting worse” by the time you find one.

This isn’t a well-founded objection to signing Burrell (or any of these hitters, really). Even if he gets worse, he will still likely be a. good, and b. better than the Oakland alternatives.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 8:16 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sorry, my deepest apologies

for my not well-founded objection.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 8:32 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think that's uniformly true, Paul

2014/2015: Upton, Snider, and Jay Bruce.

I doubt the A’s will be getting worse in ‘14. They’ll be witnessing the peak (mid-to-late 20s) of practically everyone relevant in their system.

And those three FAs will all be 26 or 27.

"Innings eater? Depends on whether you want delicious innings or burnt, moldy innings. Kirk Saarloos is the Hot Pockets of inning eaters." - Gallagher's Watermelons

by notsellingjeans on Sep 6, 2008 8:45 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I also think Bay, at 31, will be a much better bet

than Burrell, at 32, for a 4-5 year deal. Some guys age better than others, some decline more gradually or rapidly, some stay healthier than others.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 8:56 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why do you think Bay will age better than Burrell?

Honest question.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 9:11 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think Bay's physique is conducive to sustained health

and non-decline, and I think faster, slighter players have a better chance than slower, stronger players to age without injury or sudden decline. What I like about Bay is that he generates good power without being a “masher” type physically. Some of it is probably just me guessing but if I had to lay odds I’d bet Bay will age better than Burrell.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 9:17 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

6-2, 200 vs. 6-4, 225

I don’t see that much of a difference myself. And Bay actually has a worse health track record, with that wrist injury that made him so mediocre last year.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 9:25 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Have you seen him running or playing defense?

It seems like his feet weigh 50lb each when he tries to run—like an injury waiting to happen. On the other hand, wrist injuries aren’t so good for baseball players.

by rightbackin on Sep 9, 2008 5:20 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What makes you think

That any of those players will even sniff free agency? If their current teams can’t shell out the dough then they’ll be traded to a team who’s prepared to.

"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin

by Helloooo 1st on Sep 6, 2008 10:49 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Both Uptons have said they will not sign extensions

"Innings eater? Depends on whether you want delicious innings or burnt, moldy innings. Kirk Saarloos is the Hot Pockets of inning eaters." - Gallagher's Watermelons

by notsellingjeans on Sep 7, 2008 8:05 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I said that to my best friend

Manny ends up in SF…………

:(

by mrod on Sep 6, 2008 7:52 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah, I got nothing to base that on but a gut feeling

SF needs offense even more than the A’s do, and he’d be at least something they could build some marketing around.

If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Sep 6, 2008 8:12 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Plus, at 36 years old he's practicially a pup!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 8:32 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Sabean Youth Movement

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Sep 6, 2008 8:47 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would not sign Manny Ramirez to any multi-year contract if I was an MLB GM

He’s already demonstrated that he’ll quit on a team if he doesn’t like… something. The fans. Or the stadium. Or the restrooms. Or whatever else his rabbit brain develops a dislike for.

I flat-out would not trust him to perform the terms of his contract.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 8:12 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that's certainly a fair objection

That, to me, is probably the biggest reason Beane won’t sign him.

If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Sep 6, 2008 8:13 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Though it didn't stop him from signing Milty

Of course Milty was a tad cheaper.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 8:33 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't know about 4/100, but maybe 2/50

There are some desperate and rich teams out there.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 8:38 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think his easy to activate On/Off switch

will keep teams from fropping $25 million annual on him.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 8:53 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah...

… and this conversation kind of makes the A’s sound like one. Our offense is terrible. But is the solution overspending on any of these cats and having next to zero financial wiggle room for the duration of their contract? I’m skeptical, and I agree with grover’s sentiment near the end of his post that the A’s need more than just 1 hitter. Maybe I just don’t understand the market these days— every year, the top-end contracts make me shake my head.

Still, I’d rather see the A’s make their usual mid-level player signings, and maybe save some of that payroll for an F-in’ A trade— which could bring a younger, cheaper, better all-round player.

Not saying it’s gonna happen. Just sayin’.

Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.

by Joey C. on Sep 7, 2008 1:26 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's not "next to zero financial wiggle room."

When we, and by “we” I mean me and other people who have mapped out the A’s payroll in future years, say the A’s can afford a hitter like this, we mean “and still have plenty of financial wiggle room.” They could actually afford TWO players from the above list. THAT would leave them with no wiggle room. One will not.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 7, 2008 7:00 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Alright

But when I see one player making what amounts to roughly 1/4 of the A’s’ yearly payroll (if it were get to be as high as it was last year, anyway), I question wiggle room. I realize Chavez’s salary is coming off the books, but I also would caution fans to remember him as a case study of what can happen when a player’s output fails to meet our expectations. And how it can hamstring the team later down the road.

After Chavez, I pity the poor bastard who makes $20 million a year on this team.

Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.

by Joey C. on Sep 7, 2008 8:05 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You pity a baseball player making $20M per year?

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 7, 2008 8:14 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Chavez's contract has done absolutely nothing to "hamstring" the A's at any point,

so I would interpret that to mean that the team can easily sign a name player without any real risk of hitting a fiscal wall.

As for “failing to meet expectations,” the retarded gripings of talk-radio denizens are not a reason to not sign a big name. If they were, the team would never sign anyone at all.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 7, 2008 9:17 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not disagreeing

I’m just saying that we’re moaning and rending our garments now to make a huge monetary investment in a player, and on the off chance that the A’s actually do such a thing (don’t hold your breath), I don’t want to hear any bitching later.

Not saying you would. But there will be. From the kind of savvy fans that contribute to this site. Ad nauseum.

Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.

by Joey C. on Sep 8, 2008 12:57 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Milty was a head-case, but never staged an Operation Shutdown, IIRC

Milty’s problem has always seemed to be caring too much, not too little.

If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Sep 6, 2008 8:55 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

His way of shutting it down was to say,

“Ow, my right leg hurts!” and then to sulk when you replied, “You’re limping on the left leg, Milty.”

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 8:57 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

why manny? i think manny makes the LEAST sense

whatever money he makes next year will probably be a waste as the a’s may not be a playoff contender.

the a’s probably shouldn’t sign any free agents for next year, instead they could give all their current players a shot next year and then sign a FA based on what the team needs in 2010 or 2011.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Sep 7, 2008 1:29 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but if *any* FA signed next year is wasted money, why is Manny's salary somehow more wasteful?

I’m sympathetic to/mostly in agreement with the argument that we just shouldn’t bother signing anyone for ‘09. I’m also not at all opposed to your #2 choice of if-we-must-sign-someone-let-it-be-Dunn. But you don’t actually present an argument specifically against signing Manny here.

As I said, Manny will require less total money and for fewer years, which means that (a) once Chavez finally comes off the books, the A’s might have room for a second big FA after ‘10, and (b) once Manny goes off the books after ’11 or ’12 (or is traded before then), the A’s might have room for a third big FA. Manny offers projectable high-OPS (albeit likely declining slightly every year) for 3-4 years at a manageable cost commitment that gives the A’s flexibility to still pursue other FAs. Any of those other guys, that’s the only elite FA hitter the A’s sign for the next 10 years.

If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Sep 7, 2008 9:09 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm rational dammit !

I’m not sure what your rationale for insisting that I defend that assertion is though.

by green star oakland on Sep 6, 2008 7:48 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Great diary Grover

Another interesting note about Burrell is that he has Bay Area ties – he attended Bellarmine College Prep in San Jose.

Another argument in your favor is that, if we look even farther into the future, the ‘11 class (headlined by Scott Kazmir) doesn’t come close to equaling either ’09 or ’10 for hitters.

And although some people like ‘12 (Fielder, Francoeur, Ryan Howard, Zimmerman), I wouldn’t want to invest long term in those guys for the kind of dollars they’ll garner.

‘13 (assuming they don’t sign extensions): B.J. Upton, Alex Gordon, Delmon Young.

I loved your research and commentary. I personally voted “other”, because I hope they save their cash to make a ~$150MM or more investment in Justin Upton in ’14 or Travis Snider in ’15. Those guys will hit free agency at 26 years old, with their entire peaks in front of them, just as A-Rod and Vlad did.

I hope the team keeps payroll at 40-60 million for the next few years and saves money to splurge all the way to 100 million for Fremont, when Cahill and co. are in their prime.

"Innings eater? Depends on whether you want delicious innings or burnt, moldy innings. Kirk Saarloos is the Hot Pockets of inning eaters." - Gallagher's Watermelons

by notsellingjeans on Sep 6, 2008 7:48 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

what about trading for Fielder now?

If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Sep 6, 2008 7:51 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They're reputedly sniffing around Matt Cain.

Not sure if the A’s can / should meet that asking price.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Sep 7, 2008 12:58 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Trading players from other teams to help your team

does usually work out pretty well for you. The other team isn’t typically so hot for it, though.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 7, 2008 7:01 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

See how uncooperative the Giants are?

First they won’t give up the territorial rights to San Jose, and now this?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 7, 2008 7:06 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

dude you have a bizarre obsession with signing justin upton

for hundreds of millions of dollars, that’s all i’ll say.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Sep 7, 2008 1:51 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd like Texiera, but I like Barton in the lineup everyday

So that would put Barton at DH, and unless Cust is gone, that makes our outfield too crowded.

And if Cust is gone, I don’t think he would have enough protection in the lineup. You could just pitch around him

by NateHST on Sep 6, 2008 7:54 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

if you like Teixeira, and you think he'd be worth the massive contract he'll get ...

… then either trade Barton, convert him to 3B, or let him rot in Sacto as a backup option. Tex is a far better hitter (remember, even if Barton reverts to his Sept ’07 form, his upside is still only John Olerud). Barton is not a reason to oppose signing Teixeira.

If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Sep 6, 2008 8:11 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree -

Boras is a good reason not to sign Teixeira, but Barton isn’t.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 8:12 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How is Teixeira better than John Olerud?

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 6, 2008 10:15 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Someone else mentioned trading for Fielder

earlier this year. But didn’t Beane already get rid of the guy who tore up the post game spread?

by mrod on Sep 6, 2008 7:58 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Manny or Giambi

Teixeira- If he’s getting a 7-10 yr deal, no. Tex is Scott Boras’s prize gem this offseason.

Manny- Would he even come to Oaktown? He’s an attention whore, pure and simple. If he would, I’d like him. Not at more than 16-17MM/yr and no more than 3 yrs with an option for a 4th.

Burrell and Bay- Not impact enough to warrant their potential contracts IMHO.

Holliday- Borass client; will be looking for 7+ years.

Dunn- I like that idea. Put him at DH. You’re also not paying for defense when paying for Dunn, unlike Teixeira/Holliday.

Vlad- Ew.

I see the future. I see cake.

by Blicks on Sep 6, 2008 8:13 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

One thing that might factor into this, and it affects Fielder too:

Would you guys agree that, philosophically, Beane tries to put the best defensive team possible on the field in recent years?

I think the A’s value defense more than most teams. I think the A’s are less likely than other teams to put a guy like Ty Wiggington at third even if he’s a train wreck just to get a 20 home run hitter in the lineup. The team prefers to have good defenders that give their pitchers confidence, even if it means the offense suffers as a result. The defense and the pitching staff rank highly, and the offense doesn’t.

This impacts FA signings too. Several elite FAs are bad defenders, and even if they switch to DH, who knows how they’ll respond to that? Some players really dislike being a DH and hit better when they’re playing a position in the field. But if they’re in the field, they’re playing poor D.

"Innings eater? Depends on whether you want delicious innings or burnt, moldy innings. Kirk Saarloos is the Hot Pockets of inning eaters." - Gallagher's Watermelons

by notsellingjeans on Sep 6, 2008 8:17 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That needs to be taken care of before the FA is signed

The last thing the A’s need is a Gary Sheffield like situation.

If the FA is a bad defender (i.e. Dunn) and doesn’t want to DH, he doesn’t sign. Make it clear to the FA, and don’t bulge once the season starts.

I see the future. I see cake.

by Blicks on Sep 6, 2008 8:29 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd stear clear of Fielder and Dunn...

if your concern is Mid-Season bulge. Schlubs!

by elhefe on Sep 7, 2008 4:36 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think that depends whether you're talking about Manny Ramirez or Ty Wigginton

Grover is basically talking about elite hitters here — no one’s advocating sacrificing defense for merely marginal SLG upgrades.

If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Sep 6, 2008 8:29 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is an issue, actually

The extent to which a player is “DH-friendly” depends heavily on the player. Enough so that guys who have proven that they are capable of sustaining their hitting as a DH are worth more than guys who have always played a field position. Unfortunately, most of the sluggers on the market in the next few years are in the latter category.

Of course, the worst situation is where a guy has already shown that he is DEFINITELY worse as a DH, like Giambi…

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 9:18 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And so far, Cust, over a smaller sample

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 9:21 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

grover, why would signing Dunn necessarily mean trading Cust?

Personally, if Dunn is relatively affordable and is willing to commit to never, ever, ever taking the field, I’d have no problem DH’ing Dunn and starting Cust in LF. Let all the other low-SLG OFs fight it out for CF/RF/4th/5th slots, warehouse the others in Sacto, and trade anyone who either puts up an uncharacteristic (and not projectable to be sustained) midseason power spike.

I mean, OPS is OPS is OPS, and outs are outs are outs. And if Dunn is undervalued on the trade and FA markets, then Cust surely would be even more so. Signing Dunn and getting rid of Cust (yes, Dunn is better than Cust; but Cust is astonishingly cheap, especially for his OPS:$ ratio) seems kind of arbitrary and pointless to me.

If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Sep 6, 2008 8:27 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

true, true

But he’s not going to cost nearly as much as the guys on grover’s list.

And, no, as much as I love Cust, he’s likely to not be worth extending beyond arb.

If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Sep 6, 2008 8:30 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He'll stay cheap enough

The same reasons he is irrationally hated by much of the A’s fanbase will depress his value in arb, because the team can point to similar players making relatively low salaries. If he puts up numbers like this year consistently, I’d expect his arb awards to go something like 2M/4M/6M. Hardly bank-breaking.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 9:22 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If Cust stays at those levels

I’m all for keeping him unless the A’s have a better option.

I see the future. I see cake.

by Blicks on Sep 6, 2008 11:10 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed

Plus, based on those prices, that’s incredibly cheap for what he’d give us.

In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!

by DMOAS on Sep 6, 2008 11:14 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And a lot of why Dunn was so undervalued on the trade market

could have to do with the fact that he was pretty much a 2 month rental.

Cust will garner a lot more on the trade market due to his team control.

I see the future. I see cake.

by Blicks on Sep 6, 2008 8:31 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think you've been paying attention

The Reds have been actively marketing him for a year and a half, and only their waffling/asking too much led to their trading him when they did.

If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Sep 6, 2008 8:57 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hmm.

I see the future. I see cake.

by Blicks on Sep 6, 2008 11:10 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I had presumed that's what you had meant with this
If that doesn’t happen then Adam Dunn’s career .901 OPS says "Bite Me" to the Custalicious crowd.

Apologies for misinterpreting.

If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Sep 6, 2008 9:02 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think he meant

That those who say he’s just a marginal improvement over Cust can go shove it. He’s saying that Dunn is a big improvement over Cust, but not that it’s one or the other.

"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin

by Helloooo 1st on Sep 6, 2008 10:57 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Could the masochists who enjoy inept offense please ID themselves

If you’ve got private e-mail I may want to find out what other forms of kink you’re in to.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 8:34 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

nico@sheepgasm.org

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 8:39 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

By the way, grover, my #1 FA target is not on your list:

Furcal. Why is he not in the mix? I would love to have an accomplished 30 year old switch-hitter who plays plus defense, and I’d love any excuse to punt Crosby into the next county and beyond. His surgery might make him affordable to the A’s in a way he would ordinarily not be. Shouldn’t Furcal at least be in the conversation?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 8:37 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No, Furcal does not belong in this conversation

The guy has cracked an .800 OPS once in his career, he’s simply not in the same league (offensively) as these guys. He’ll be 31 next year and coming off back surgery, when is his speed going to go? He’d certainly be an offensive upgrade over Crosby but that doesn’t take much.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 8:46 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Then you should be talking about power, specifically,

and not “plua-offense” players. When you look at Furcal’s average, OBP, slugging, and speed together you get a very fine player (healthy). Plus, when you get his production at SS, you can still add pieces elsewhere, whereas when you get production from an OFer, you can’t easily go out and add a good hitting SS.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 9:07 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Furcal has a career OBP of .352

Everyone but Ankiel & Burrell has that beat by a minimum 20 points.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 9:22 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Look at it this way:

Sweeney, Gonzalez, Cunningham, Furcal combined OBP vs.
substituting one of the OFers for Crosby.

And you may think 25-40 SBs aren’t important to the conversation (I don’t know), but I sure don’t.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 9:25 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm a speed whore

But back surgery and SB don’t necessarily go hand-in-hand.

I am curious to see what kind of offers Furcal gets in FA. If he can come back and play some this year and show he’s healthy it would earn him a lot of money.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 9:28 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's my thinking - that he would be wise

to sign a one-year deal on the relatively cheap and become a FA again after 2009. In that scenario, if he looks healthy and productive, the A’s could try to extend him mid-season. If not, Cardenas might be ready in 2010 or you can pursue a long-term solution through FA or trade.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 9:32 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So I'm not saying Furcal is "the one"

I’m saying he’s one where you might be able to pursue another at the same time. A guess: Furcal and Giambi combined will be more affordable than any one on the 2009 list.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 9:33 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just to show I can play with these pieces

Sign Giambi to a 2 year deal to play DH, see what Furcal wants (a 1 year deal to prove himself or a multi-year contract?) then stick Crosby at 3B. Cut/bench/trade Hannahan.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 9:39 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not yet convinced that Chavez

won’t be the Opening Day 3Bman. Don’t get me wrong – I’m also not convinced he’ll be the 3Bman on May 15th, but…I think he and the A’s are determined…

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 9:41 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No

any plans whatsoever can not have Chavez in mind. If he shows up capable of playing, great, find a spot for him. But don’t bother even penciling him into the roster plans for next year.

In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!

by DMOAS on Sep 6, 2008 9:43 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I didn't say the A's SHOULD plan on it,

I’m saying the A’s may plan on it.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 9:44 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm confused

I thought we were discussing what they should do. My bad.

In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!

by DMOAS on Sep 6, 2008 9:46 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Do they even still make those cars?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 9:51 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't see Furcal as a solution in 2010-14

Unless the A’s plan to sacrifice those years for 2009 or unless Furcal is really cheap, I don’t see the point of him.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 6, 2008 10:18 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He could be filler until Cardenas is ready,

and if he fully recovers I could see him as a great solution in 2010-2014, at SS or 2B.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 10:21 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cardenas is not destined for SS

Does not have the range.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 10:22 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Same reason they're playing Carter at 3B

Might as well experiment now.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 10:41 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

honest question: why are you not yet convinced?

If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Sep 7, 2008 8:39 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

F*** Crosby

Seriously. I’d rather hand the job to Jeff Baisley sight unseen.

I’m so sick of Crosby at this point.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 9:45 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Neifi is on the other line - are you in?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 9:47 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

why in Ba'al's name would you put Crosby at third?

Crosby, compared to other shortstops, has been having a roughly league-average year so far. Compared to other third basemen … plus learning a new position, plus un-learning his big-setup/slinging-action throws? I don’t think Cros could play third competently.

If you’re not lying, i recommend seeing a doctor. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Sep 7, 2008 8:39 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You have to squint to see Crosby as league average at SS

Offensively, he’s below average. Prospectus have him at around 8 runs below average, per EQA / EQR. Defensively, he’s having a bad year. At this point, he’s barely above replacement.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Sep 7, 2008 9:12 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If he signs a 1-year, absofrigginglutely

because he’d carry with him, probably, two draft picks.

I just don’t think he’s going to sign a 1-year deal.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 9:43 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would if I were him, because he'll probably

have one “good FA contract” year left. He’ll get a better 3-5 year deal after a healthy 2009 than he will coming off surgery and inactivity.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 9:45 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Someone mentioned the 2011 draft class

A very preliminary list includes:

Derrek Lee (9/6/75)
Aramis Ramirez (6/25/78)
Victor Martinez (12/23/78)
Jorge Cantu (1/30/82)
Austin Kearns (5/20/80)
Carlos Pena (5/17/78)
Kevin Youkilis (3/15/79)
Garrett Atkins (12/12/79)
Brad Hawpe (6/22/79)
Joe Mauer (4/19/83)
Jermaine Dye (1/28/74)

A lot can happen between now and when these guys hit FA.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 8:51 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Garrett Atkins might get non-tendered before 2011...

Of course, I hate Garrett Atkins (as a player, not as a person) so that’s sort of meaningless from my end.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 9:33 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

His contract includes an option, so in essense you are pushing the FA availability a year further but what about Victor Martinez?

Otherwise, I say, hey, if you are going to throw all your money into the pot, you might as well get someone good. But if you can’t get the best guy for $30 million, then grab two for $15. The problem is that almost all the guys you list are in the Outfield, and thats the one place on this team where we have offensive depth, besides the annual first base trials and tribultions.

So I say go for Mark Teixiera. He can hit in the AL, he can play good defense, and he is young enough that he probably will not kill you early in the contract. If you can’t get Tex, grab 2 of Bay, Ankien and Holliday.

facepalm.jpg

by Zonis on Sep 6, 2008 8:53 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Options

I figure everyone good enough to make my list will have any and all options activated unless you get another Manny situation. Vic makes my 2011 list, though.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 8:55 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

blech

none of these guys are guys I’d like to sign bc of either years or money. i really hope someone else becomes a viable option to sign that can bolster offense…i hear barry lamar is still around.

"I talked to Paul this morning and asked if he could acquire some chemistry from another GM whose team is out of the race. But I'm concerned chemistry might not clear waivers."
--Beane

by DyeLongJustice on Sep 6, 2008 8:58 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Personally, I don't believe the A's will go the FA route

for the “big bat” this off-season or likely even next – most of these guys are flawed and will be overpaid anyway. We traded for Carlos Gonzalez, who could develop into an impact bat and we traded for Cunningham, Sweeney, Cardenas, and Carter, one of whom is likely to excel as a big league hitter. Getting them when they’re younger and not great yet is a cheaper and safer approach.

I can see Billy taking fliers on Giambi or Furcal as short-term solutions that won’t break the bank or over-commit for too long. I don’t see shelling out 50-100 million for these guys.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 9:03 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Here's the thing about the young guys

They might not develop.

Remember all the happy joy-joy thoughts people had about Barton and Buck heading into this year? And why insist on putting all the pressure on young, inexperienced hitters? It’s great when Frank Thomas comes back to share hitting tips but it’s a lot better for the team when Thomas is actually hitting while sharing his knowledge. Call it a practical application of learned knowledge.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 9:26 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My reservation is that if I'm going to shell out

$15mil/year for 4-5 years, I want that guy to play better defense than Burrell or Dunn, i.e., I want a “complete player” like, say, Beltran. The only “complete player” on the list, really, is Teixeira and he is going to get so overpaid I don’t honestly think the A’s should sign him.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 9:30 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fuck defense!!!

Pardon my language but Beane put out his best defensive unit this year and we ended up with an offense that scored 100 fewer runs then last year’s inept offense. The A’s will continue to be a sub-.500 team if they don’t score more runs.

I’m not willing to pin the offensive future of this team on the hope that CarGon, Buck, Barton, Cunningham and Carter all pan out. ‘Cause if they don’t we’re going to be short on offense.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 9:35 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The reality, though, is that the A's can't or won't

spend enough to put a killer offensive team on the field that can outscore massive shortcomings on defense/pitching. If they put Hanley Ramirez at SS right now, I’m not sure they’d be a better team – because they’d still have holes in the lineup and…

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 9:37 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

P.S. I'd be willing to give it a shot if the Marlins don't mind

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 9:38 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I appreciate your point, basically that a run is a run whether you score it or save it,

but that’s overreaching. Hanley is like a +40 on offense. That’s more than enough to make up for a -10 on defense (and you might solve that -10 anyway by moving him to LF).

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 9:40 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know - Hanley's a bad example in that offensively

he’s awesome. I do think that the A’s need plus defense at 2B and SS more than an average team – they can get away with a Cust (or Burrell or Manny) in LF, though.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 9:43 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think what I'm really saying is, resign Mark Ellis

(unless his shoulder is totally shot to pieces)

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 9:47 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

BANG!

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 9:47 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, please

The A’s don’t exactly need another position to fill. And Patterson won’t fill it – even if he’s a better hitter than he’s shown, he is not a good enough 2Bman.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 9:48 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Waste o' money

Let someone else gamble on his shoulder.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 9:50 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just curious - who do you suggest putting at 2B in 2009?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 9:52 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can't fix everything in 1 year

Cage match between Pennington, Patterson and Petit for now. I’m currently working on 3B.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 9:54 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Trouble is, how much are these FAs going to help you

if flanked by a poor hitting, poor fielding 2Bman (Pennington and Petit aren’t even primarily 2Bmen)? And it’s not like 2010 is taken care of – are you banking on Weeks making it to the big leagues AND being a contributor in 2010? Your FAs won’t save this team, even in 2010, with a lousy 2Bman.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 10:00 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not trying to put too much emphasis

on 2B, by the way, just saying you can’t take a step forward and a step back at the same time and call it progress.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 10:01 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ellis is gone

Bringing him back would be a mistake because of his shoulder.

If I can improve the offense at 1B/DH and 3B, plus get lucky and actually have some of the OF talent develop then I can worry about 2B later, when the A’s are closer to contending.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 10:08 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't see where 3B is improved

If you have an idea for a solution you need to reveal your idea because only when we see what we’re losing (presumably in a trade) can the overall plan be evaluated.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 10:14 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm working on it!

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 10:16 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Who are you hoping the A's might acquire?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 10:16 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That would kill the suspense

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 10:18 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

true to form

from a hairy muppet with a pair of blue…

by elhefe on Sep 7, 2008 6:29 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That would kill the suspense

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 10:18 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Damn

The sequel is almost never as good as the original.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 10:19 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yawn - then I'm not interested

until you feel like talking.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 10:21 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hush then

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 10:42 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As a band-aid, yes

Long term? Nope.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 10:18 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like Wood at 3B

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 6, 2008 10:20 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I thought Wood usually didn't come out

until you got to home plate.

But I don’t know the women you hang out with.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 10:23 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You've never faced B.J., obviously.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 10:23 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

His offensive drop off

and his shoulder bother me. I’d be all for a 1 year extension at near what he’s making this year, but at this point, I wouldn’t give him the 3/4 years that he might be expecting out of free agency.

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by DMOAS on Sep 6, 2008 9:54 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The offensive dropoff is either a consequence of the shoulder

or bad luck. It’s literally 100% caused by a drop in his BABIP to 45 points below his career average.

If he’s healthy, he will be absolutely fine offensively.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 10:06 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Since his shoulder hurts so bad he can't swing a bat

I’d have to doubt the bad luck angle.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 10:09 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hence the 1 year deal

I wouldn’t gamble that his health is temporary or won’t have lasting effects on his abilities. I’m all for taking that risk, even if it’s potentially an expensive risk. But I’m not for gambling with a 3/4 year contract.

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by DMOAS on Sep 6, 2008 10:10 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is it possible Beane feels the same way,

offered Ellis a shorter deal than Ellis had hoped for, causing Ellis to break off talks (and plan to pursue free agency) until the end of the season?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 10:15 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

People really don't "get this"

Ellis has been worth in the neighborhood of $15-20 million a year in free agent value from 2005 to now.

If you sign him to an $18 million extension for three years, even ONE healthy season out of three will pay for the deal! He’s going to be almost comically undervalued by the market this offseason. How often can you say that about a free agent?

You’d better be fucking certain that he will not do anything for the next three years before you let that kind of potential bargain walk away.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 10:16 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I seriously doubt anyone

would ever give Ellis 15/20 a year. Certainly not after this year. Certainly not if he rebounds next year. At most he’s looking like a 8/12 million a year guy, but that’s only if he rebounds next year. I don’t disagree with you in how you assess how good he is, I just think you’re overestimating what he’ll make on the free agent market.

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by DMOAS on Sep 6, 2008 10:28 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OK

I didn’t say Ellis would get $15 million a year on the FA market, I said he was as valuable a player as the average guy who gets $15 million a year on the FA market.

At this point, I don’t think he’ll get more than $20 million guaranteed, three years.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 10:33 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He may have been, but without durability

he drops straight to useless.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 6, 2008 10:38 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What the fuck are you talking about?

You know who else doesn’t have durability? Josh Beckett. And Ben Sheets. And David Ortiz.

All useless, obviously.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 10:41 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes and an occasionally used gimpy great

hitter or pitcher still has value. A hurt defensive specialist has none.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 6, 2008 10:50 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If he rebounds next year, I don’t see the cost for an additional 2/3 years being grotesquely expensive. Sure, if we take the risk now, we could save a little, but not enough that the risk of spending that money upfront would cost us.

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by DMOAS on Sep 6, 2008 10:42 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Someone will, I guarantee you, give him more than 1 year

and he, being an intelligent, risk averse person, will probably take it.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 10:47 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Then I wish them the best

of luck on that risk.

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by DMOAS on Sep 6, 2008 10:53 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ellis at 3/$27 for a contender

would be a good risk if his shoulder checks out.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 6, 2008 10:56 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, it would

Are the A’s not “a contender”?

One way to ensure you aren’t a contender is to not sign good players to cheap contracts.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 11:57 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's what I said.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 6, 2008 11:59 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But I don't know what Ellis is looking

for in a contract.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 7, 2008 12:02 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not talking about putting one of these guys at a defense criticl spot

We’re talking Corner OF, 1B or DH. Sticking with the field positions, they are still offense first positions.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 9:42 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm concerned about 1B - even if Barton "comes around"

I don’t see him exceeding 15 HRs and at 1B, his slugging pct is starting to worry me more than I thought it would. It would be one thing if he were hitting .300 with a .400 OBP but that’s pretty ambitious.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 9:51 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Barton might be trade bait

Especially if the other guy is a “believer”.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 9:52 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And what if they do?

Then you have a huge clog.

Never, Never, NEVER give up

by hero66 on Sep 6, 2008 10:24 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Holy crap.

I replied to this post:

"Pardon my language but Beane put out his best defensive unit this year and we ended up with an offense that scored 100 fewer runs then last year’s inept offense. The A’s will continue to be a sub-.500 team if they don’t score more runs.

I’m not willing to pin the offensive future of this team on the hope that CarGon, Buck, Barton, Cunningham and Carter all pan out. ‘Cause if they don’t we’re going to be short on offense."

And it put it way below it.

Never, Never, NEVER give up

by hero66 on Sep 6, 2008 10:25 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You still seem to be having problems with the concept of threading

The prior replies to that post generated tons of counter-replies. All of that repartee will go above any new replies to grover’s post.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 10:35 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ah

Ok then. I havent been here for very long, so I didnt know that. Thanks.

Never, Never, NEVER give up

by hero66 on Sep 6, 2008 10:56 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Clog is a nice problem to have

Lack of anyone good at a position is not.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 10:25 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Whther or not it's a "nice" problem in your opinion...

It’s still a problem.

I just dont see the point in beginning a rebuilding process, then turning right around and signing a bunch of FA’s to block the guys you traded for. It just doesnt make any sense.

Never, Never, NEVER give up

by hero66 on Sep 6, 2008 10:28 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Does scoring runs make sense to you?

Your arguement assumes EVERYONE os consequence developes as hoped. That’s doubtful. And if you do find yourself with an extra bat you can always trade it for something else you need.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 10:34 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If they dont work out...

then you fill that hole. But signing somebody before even giving the guy a shot to work out makes no sense.

Never, Never, NEVER give up

by hero66 on Sep 6, 2008 10:55 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

is AN broken?

I didn’t type this here.

by jdr on Sep 6, 2008 11:36 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Again

Make the young guys earn their spot. I’m saying you sign 1 big FA bat. Most of the bats the A’s have in development are OFers and 1B. There are still holes at 3B, SS and 2B. If you’ve got an extra OF you can trade him to fill one of those other holes.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 11:39 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

FIlling that hole with good players isn't easy

The availability of talent on the FA market varies year by year.

The Yankees made this mistake the last several years, when they tried to “force” the issue, by overpaying for mediocrities like Pavano, Wright, and passing on Carlos Beltran, because they got it into their heads that their “plan” was getting pitching.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Sep 7, 2008 1:06 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree

The issue isn’t so much Beane unwilling to put up the big cash for a player (he has it available), the problem is putting up big cash on a player who won’t produce. All of these guys look like by the last couple of years of their expected contract, they won’t produce anywhere near enough to justify the cost. We’re better off going for the mid-range guys on short term contracts and hope to take on a big contract for a big named player via trade from a team looking to fire sale their salary.

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by DMOAS on Sep 6, 2008 9:38 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's not really relevant

Signing Dunn to a 6 year deal means you’d be paying him through his age 34 season. Why should we expect a sudden drop-off from a 34 year old player in today’s game?

Signing Bay to a 5 year deal means he’s playing his last year under contract at age 36. Again, not a damning age… although we’re getting closer!

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 9:47 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's very relevant

Most of those guys on that list will command in the neighborhood of 20+/- million a year. Quite a few will likely be in “let’s sign a vet on the cheap” level of performance at the end of the contract, which is something the A’s can’t afford to do. The rest of that group will command in that 5/10 year range and then you’re banking on their health and their continued ability to perform in their mid-30s (we can argue about the individual risks of both happening on each player), but it’s still a very relevant factor, especially 5/6 years from now when we’re trying to keep the kids we’re bring up and we don’t have the cash to pay them because we’re shelling out the high end of the contract (a ton of cash) on, say another Chavez. I’m not saying don’t entertain the idea of signing the big name free agent, but the A’s absolutely can’t afford to pay for that same player when he’s on the wrong end of the decline.

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by DMOAS on Sep 6, 2008 10:07 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hogwash

They can most certainly afford to pay for Eric Chavez right now, and he’s not doing anything for the team as it stands. (Though he might still recover.)

If the worst case scenario is a similar amount of “dead money” carrying over into 2012-2014, there’s really no issue here. The A’s have the money available to spend (while still doing the needed upkeep on the farm system a la Rashun Dixon). That’s really not in doubt.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 10:12 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We can agree to disagree on this one

We can afford to pay Chavez now because we’re both out of it and we’ve basically dumped a lot of salary. We didn’t even bother with Tejada because of lack of salary room and we “had” Crosby. Do we really want the same for one of the current kids? We’d likely be covering close to 25 million instead of the, what, 15 Chavez is getting now? Keep in mind, I’m not saying the team wouldn’t/shouldn’t consider signing one of these guys, I’m simply saying that this is a concern and issue that won’t be ignored in making a deal with them. Whether they have money now in a rebuilding year is irrelevant. Whether they have room 5/6 years from now and need salary room to add a piece or two while one of these guys mingles with the DL, that’s a major concern.

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by DMOAS on Sep 6, 2008 10:21 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We should have bothered with Tejada

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 6, 2008 10:22 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thinking a guy is going to tank at 34 is worrying too much

Mid-30s is not a death sentence.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 10:25 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's easy for you to say.

You’re only 14. And a puppet.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 10:26 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Grover has been on TV for like 40 years

He can’t be 14….

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 10:28 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's like The Little Rascals

Once a grover got too old or lost some cute factor, the producers brought in a new one and took the old one out back with a shotgun.

Ryan Sweeney: I probably irrationally embraced him before you did.

by Joey C. on Sep 7, 2008 12:53 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No young player of any consequence on the A's roster

is hitting free agency before 2014. I haven’t seen anyone suggesting a 7-year deal for any of these cats.

Go ahead, do the math on the future payrolls. I’ll wait.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 10:26 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I see no future superstars in the A's system above A ball.

Henry might have the best chance and that would be microscopic.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 6, 2008 10:35 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OK, that's just weirdly pessimistic (and off topic)

This is the #1 system in baseball…

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 10:37 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The phrasing was weird but I was responding to why I wouldn't

offer a 7+ year deal to any current A’s player.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 6, 2008 10:40 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was talking about offering one to one of the free agents, above...

Obviously the A’s have no one who’s going to command that kind of deal on the big-league roster right now, yes. Carlos Gonzalez might earn a deal to 2015 in a year or two but he’s not there yet.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 10:45 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

See all Boras clients above

Between Boras and competition, most if not all of the younger guys on that list will get longer term contracts. Between both arbitration costs, extension costs & other free agent roster fillers, the salary will likely rise pretty quickly. The next 3/4 years won’t be so bad that we’re necessarily screwed, but it will impact our ability for flexibility to make trades over that time and when you hit the 5/6 year mark when the costs continue to rise plus we’re looking elsewhere over that entire time to bring in other guys, the payroll is going to fill up quickly. Based on the guys we currently have, you’re right, 2009-2013 is no big deal. But you’re not taking into account other moves the team might try to make during that time. If the team doesn’t budget themselves well, we could find the team financially crippled in 6/7 years. Sure that’s not a big problem now or in the immediate future, but if you’re looking beyond that, we could wind up like the giants by 2015/2016.

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by DMOAS on Sep 6, 2008 10:52 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hell, have you checked the numbers recently?

We look like the Giants NOW!

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 10:55 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly

And we hate that, don’t we?

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by DMOAS on Sep 6, 2008 10:56 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

More to the point

we may LOOK like the giants, but we’re in a much better position going into the future than them. If we’re not careful, we could actually be the giants in 6/7 years.

But let me go back to my main point, because it’s gone off on an unintentional tangent

I’m NOT saying don’t try to sign one of these guys. I’m saying the cost for performance at the end of their contracts will have an impact on both which FA the team would go after and just how much the team would be willing to pay for them or more accurately, how much they won’t outbid other teams to sign.

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by DMOAS on Sep 6, 2008 11:01 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, there will be an impact

Right now the A’s are getting ZERO offense from the $11 million they’re spending on Chavez. That’s bad. Getting above-average offense from a $16 million player isn’t the greatest thing but isn’t a season killer.

More importantly, by 2015 most of these guys will be off the books or about to come off the books! If every position player in AAA and above maxes out their ability and become everything everyone ever dreamed then mayeb, just maybe there’ll be a problem 7 years from now.

I’d be happy to deal with that mess then. For now, there are more pressing problems then what might happen with the budget in 2016.

And for the record, if the A’s have the worst farm system again come 2016 then I hope Beane has been fired, because that crap shouldn’t happen again.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 6, 2008 11:17 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's an odd statement

considering that it, eg, doesn’t take the possibility of the A’s winning a World Series (perhaps by turning prospects into upgrades) into account…

We’ve already more or less established that the reason the A’s farm system “ran down” was not because the team drafted poorly.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 7, 2008 12:04 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They didn't draft bad, they drafted cheap

That plus ignoring Latin America screwed ’em.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 7, 2008 12:18 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If the A's have not substantially upped their revenue stream

(translation: moved to Fremont) by 2015, they will be “financially crippled” anyway.

If they have, it shouldn’t be an issue.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 7, 2008 12:00 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

None of them

Why sign vets to block young guys when they come up?

If I had to choose, I’d say Bay, but I’d prefer to wait for everybody to develop.

Never, Never, NEVER give up

by hero66 on Sep 6, 2008 9:11 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's about where I am -

Some of these FAs will be good but will also be grossly overpaid, and others are far from 5-tool players for the money and commitment they will command.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 9:18 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't see any hitters in the A's system on the level of Dunn -- other than Cust.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 6, 2008 10:23 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Carter, definitely, even in "type".

And Gonzalez may well be better.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 10:25 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Than Dunn?

Not as a hitter. As an overall package, perhaps. Not offensively.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 6, 2008 10:26 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We don't know -

Carter is in A-ball and Gonzalez is 22.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 6, 2008 10:27 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But Gonzalez's plate discipline has never been good enough to scream "elite hitter"

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 6, 2008 10:33 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Neither has Vlad ... or Miggie ...

or a host of other elite hitters …

I mean, I applaud giving the walk its due — but the idea is to get one base and not make outs … it’s okay to use the bat to do it, too.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Sep 6, 2008 10:56 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, but they didn't strike out like Gonzalez has.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 6, 2008 10:59 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dude

He is 22 years old.

Never, Never, NEVER give up

by hero66 on Sep 6, 2008 11:15 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I meant when Vlad and Miggy were the same ages.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 6, 2008 11:18 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's still 22

Maybe he’ll take longer to develop, who knows?

It’s just insanely retarded to try to judge a guy after 1 year, or even less than that, in the bigs.

Never, Never, NEVER give up

by hero66 on Sep 6, 2008 11:30 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not dismissing him. I'm also not expecting him to be elite.

Being elite is really really hard. If you see flaws, then it’s even harder.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 6, 2008 11:32 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

At age 22,

Vlad had this line: 324 .371 .589, 150 OPS+. And his K / BB rates were much better than Gonzalez’.

Sorry, but a comparison of Vlad for Patrol Craft is ridonkulously fanboyishly optimistic.

And it’s not just judging Gonzalez based on one year. He has a minor league track record. A career minor league record of 286 .340 .473, K / BB rate of 487 Ks and 178 walks, doesn’t scream future HoFer, and doesn’t compare to Vlad’s. Now yes, the minors are not just for evaluation, players are there for instruction and to learn.

Miggy is a more realistic and plausible comp.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Sep 7, 2008 5:06 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Gonzalez doesn't have the plate discipline of Dunn. Even if he improved to a decent

level, he still wouldn’t be Dunn. I think the Rob Deer comparison for Carter is a good one.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 6, 2008 10:27 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why do people....

act as if Carter doesnt walk?

Why would he be a Ryan Howard and not an Adam Dunn? Doesnt he walk a lot?

Never, Never, NEVER give up

by hero66 on Sep 6, 2008 10:29 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Deer walked.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 6, 2008 10:31 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

without looking at any numbers

Dunn is basically super-Deer. Deer is who Dunn would be if he made contact even less.

by jdr on Sep 6, 2008 10:55 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He does look like he'll get more of these things called hits, though ...

those can be helpful too …

The difference between Rob Deer and Adam Dunn, as far as I can tell, is that one is good and the other was not, while both are TTO standouts …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Sep 6, 2008 10:55 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Right, and what makes Carter closer to Dunn than to Deer?

Dunn looked like a much better hitter than Carter at similar ages. So for that matter did Cust and Branyan. What am I missing?

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 6, 2008 10:58 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oops I'm not sure whether we're talking about Carter or Carlos anymore.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 6, 2008 11:02 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Have you looked at their numbers?

Chris Carter has hit for a fair amount more power (.248 IsoSlg) than Adam Dunn did (.221) in the minors — granted, Dunn was promoted more aggressively. The difference in their overall numbers is that Carter has a good but not out of this world walk rate and Dunn enjoyed a higher babip.

He still needs to do it against better competition — but performance-wise, you can’t ask for much more to this point.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Sep 6, 2008 11:10 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not disappointed in Carter. I'm saying that expecting him to be closer to Dunn

than Deer smacks of wishcasting.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 6, 2008 11:17 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Expecting any prospect to exceed the MLB average smacks of wishcasting ...

and that includes David Price or Evan Longoria or anyone else …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Sep 7, 2008 3:33 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're saying that there is no difference

between expecting an elite prospect to be better than MLB average, compared to expecting a decent / pretty good prospect to be better than MLB average?

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Sep 7, 2008 5:09 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nope ... didn't say that ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Sep 7, 2008 10:46 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I voted for Bay ... based on your analysis, anyway ...

I doubt very much that he doesn’t re-sign with Boston. If Ankiel actually hits the market, he’d be my second choice …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on