Athletics Nation: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Around SBN: Can Tebow Say No To Anything?

Staturday: Daric Barton

I quick little mid-week Staturday for you.

After yesterday's mini-explosion, Daric Barton is hitting .223/.315/.339.  That's pretty much awful for anybody, much less a guy who was talked as a pre-season contender for rookie of the year.  But, as is usually the case for guys who hit this poorly, Barton has run into a little bad luck.  Allow me to explain.

Daric Barton is hitting line drives in 20.2% of the time he puts the ball in play.  Other guys who hit line drives with that kind of frequency are Evan Longoria, Ichiro Suzuki, and Justin Morneau.  Those are good hitters.

Line drives are good; they tend to turn into base hits.  In fact, a decent way to figure what a player's batting average for balls in play (that is, for plate appearances that don't end in a walk, homer, or strikeout) is to take his line drive frequency and add 0.12.  That figure is slightly higher for groundballing speedburners, and slightly lower for flyballing leadfoots, but it's a pretty good guess.

For Barton, you'd guess he'd be hitting .202 + .12 = .322 when he makes non-HR contact.  In reality, that figure is .269.  That's a big discrepancy.  There are a few reasons why this might be:

1. Bad luck - he's hitting line drives where they ain't ain't.

2. Bad scoring - someone is categorizing some of his hits as line drives when they are really soft flyballs.

3. Bad hitting - he's hitting really soft line drives.

Assume, for a moment, that this is due to bad luck.  If his batting average on contact were actualy .322, his batting line would look a lot better.  How much better?

Barton has had 440 PA, 154 of which have resulted in a walk (or HBP), strikeout, or home run (or sac bunt).  So he's made in-play contact in 286 PA. If he were to hit .322 on these balls in play, that would give us 92 non-HR hits.  Add back in his 8 HR, and that's 100 hits.  In 381 at bats,  that puts his batting average at .262.  In 440 PA, and combined with his 50 walks and 2 HBP, that's an OBP of .345.  If ALL of those extra hits were singles - which is a somewhat conservative estimate - then his slugging would jump to .378.

So, if his liners turned into hits like we would expect, Barton would have a line of .262/.345/.378, a .723 OPS and a 98 OPS+.  That would make him clearly worse than only two other hitters on this team, Big Frank and Jack Cust.  He'd be about equal to Ryan Sweeney and Kurt Suzuki.

Barton's not a superstar masquerading as a terrible player due to luck. He'll have to hit a lot better than a .723 OPS to be an asset at first base.  He needs to make contact more often, and he needs to develop more power.

But it isn't a stretch to say that Barton has been roughly a league average hitter running into some bad luck.  If he really is an average hitter at age 22, then he may yet turn in a pretty decent career as an Athletic.

0 recs  |  Comment 47 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

someone please explain #2 to me (yeah, yeah, yeah, you all thought I was the expert on #2)

This is my issue with advanced metrics such as LD% and virtually every defensive stat: how, exactly, are the raw data generated? Is there really some guy sitting at each ballpark assessing “fly ball” vs “line drive”? Is it the same guy at every home game? Does that guy(s)/gal(s) ever get tired, or drink a beer at the game, or order a churro during a PA, or cheer for one team vs another? Do all advanced metrics rely on the same raw data, or do BP and THT have guys sitting glaring at each other across the aisle as they chart pitches and batted balls? We all know the problems with an umpire calling balls and strikes from 2 feet away, as well as the “moral judgment” of official scorers assessing errors — how are the LD/spray/etc data not similarly compromised?

There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Sep 3, 2008 1:49 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

To some extent, it's GIGO.

But the guys who do the scoring are generally pretty good, and from what I can gather, are consistent if not always accurate. THT gets its data from Baseball Info Solutions. Not sure about BPro.

Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.

by salb918 on Sep 3, 2008 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Short(ish) answer

There are two competing primary sources for the data: BIS and Stats Inc.
This article explains how the data is generated:

STATS told me that their hit ball data is gathered by a contract employee in the press box, and cross checked with a second employee scoring the game from video. Any discrepancies are resolved by going back to the video or adding data from other employees who were gathering the data from the game for special projects. As far as I could determine, BIS has a similar system of cross checks to ensure the accuracy demanded by its paying clients.

and also compares some of the raw data from the two sources from the same plays to give a general sense of how accurate these methods are.

As you can see, the data isn’t particularly accurate. The question is whether the inaccuracy is due to noise or bias. Noise (for example, the recorded data is off by a few feet in a random direction for each data point) is an annoyance, but the effects diminish with larger sample size, so in theory it’s not really a problem if you have enough data. Bias (for example, the recorded data in some park is always off by a few feet in a consistent direction, or the Oakland scorer has a different idea of what constitutes a line drive than the Seattle scorer does) would cause a problem in the final result no matter how large a sample you have. The cross-checking they do is supposed to minimize the chance of bias creeping into the data, but how successful that is is (AFAIK) an open question.

Overqualified to be an A's fan.

by andeux on Sep 3, 2008 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

thanks

There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Sep 3, 2008 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hannahan

How does Hannahan fair using your analysis? I recall he had a good line drive rate but also strikes out a decent amount.

by SA on Sep 3, 2008 1:56 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Hannahan:

22.1% liners, .289 BABIP, .221+.120 = 341 expected BABIP, robbing him of about 14 hits. If all of those hits were singles, then he’d have a line of 256/330/372.

Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.

by salb918 on Sep 3, 2008 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Where does his 100 plus strikeouts

figure in the equation? He is almost Cust like without the power.

by Laoren on Sep 4, 2008 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Of BABIP? They don't.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 5, 2008 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ellis is an interesting case.

If you run this analysis on him, he’d be hitting 291/369/432 and getting ready for a huge payday.

One big problem though: Ellis’ BABIP, which is a ridiculously low .248 when compared to his liner rate of 20%, may not be due to bad luck. He’s hitting an insane number of popups, which is what’s holding his BABIP way down. And popups turning into outs are not bad luck.

Now, I don’t know if the popup thing is a fluke, an injury, reduced bat speed, or what-have-you. But it’s there.

Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.

by salb918 on Sep 3, 2008 2:13 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I think there are two things going on here

When we talk about regression to the mean, we’re really conflating two concepts— regression of skill and regression of luck.

An obvious example of the former is, say, Manny Ramirez showing up for a Sunday day game with a hangover. He has a splitting headache, he can’t see the ball, he’s exhausted and the crowd noise is driving him nuts. Not surprisingly, he goes 0 for 5. On that day, his true OPS was zero. But, he’s Manny Ramirez— so the next day his true OPS is right back to normal. He has regressed to his mean.

Most injuries, slumps where guys have psychologically bad at-bats, and so on are not one-day affairs, of course. But the principle still applies— when a guy has played very well for a prolonged period, and then suddenly starts sucking, he’s likely to improve even though his bad results are entirely caused by bad skill and not bad luck. And on the flip side of this, if a guy has been “unlucky” but lacks skill, he’s not terribly likely to improve substantively, because one form of regression will mostly cancel out the other.

Salb probably knows all of this already, being a stat madman and whatnot, but I thought I’d point it out.

To apply this to the guys in front of us: Hannahan has been “unlucky” but appears to lack the real skill to hit for average, so he’s not likely to improve much. Ellis,by contrast, has a career BABIP of .290 or so, so unless his dropoff is related to his injury and that injury doesn’t get better, he’s probably going to be fine. Barton certainly showed skills in the minor leagues which suggested the ability to be better than barely league-average, but it’s hard to tell in his case where his true skill level is because he doesn’t really have an extensive pro track record at higher levels of play.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 3, 2008 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Opinions on Ellis largely revolve around his IF/F. He won’t be able to sustain much production with a rate of IF/F of 25 an a HR/F of 7%. That’s a lot of outs.

by MrIncognito on Sep 3, 2008 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess I should add that one’s opinion of Ellis is based on your interpretation of the IF/F% as an outlier or new trend.

by MrIncognito on Sep 3, 2008 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sort of off subject..

But talking about Daric Barton reminded me of another awesome performer from last year: Travis Buck. Where is he?

I know his metrics were pretty bad. I remember a lot of weak grounders and strike outs….

by VORP is too nerdy on Sep 3, 2008 2:32 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Buck's numbers this year are putrescent

He has a line drive rate of 10% and struck out in more than 1/4 of his at-bats.

To go off what I wrote above, while we might hope for some skill regression on his part, there’s no luck regression involved at all. He got what his at-bats this season deserved— a horrible hitting line.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 3, 2008 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

My guess:

typical A’s injured player, playing when he shouldn’t have been: doing so might have farked up his swing.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Sep 3, 2008 11:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting points salb

but you don’t really discuss number 2 or 3.

As for number 3, from a frustrated fan’s perspective, more often than not when Barton gets out on a “fly ball” it seems to me that it is usually a soft line drive as opposed to a hard line drive. In such a case, do the stats differentiate between “soft line drive” vs. “hard line drive?” Because they should. A soft line drive would not be indicative of any bad luck and instead would reflect more on “bad hitting” as you referred to it.

So my point is why shouldn’t we conclude that Barton hits a lot of catchable soft liners, and therefore that he is as good as his numbers say – which is not very good?

"It's not my fault your team's so shitty" - every AL Manager to Bob Geren

by oaktownmario on Sep 3, 2008 2:34 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Yep

I see the same thing. Everytime he hits an apparent “line-drive” to the outfield, I’m always left with an empy feeling in my stomach, thinking “he musta got jammed”, or “he musta hit it at the end of the bat”. Very rarely do I see a one-hopper to the wall, over an OF arms or in the gap. But maybe I’m just jaded.

by Colorado Fan on Sep 3, 2008 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, we don't know.

“In such a case, do the stats differentiate between "soft line drive" vs. "hard line drive?" Because they should.”

Not really, and yes, they should. Now, if you trust your eyes, and your eyes are seeing a bunch of soft liners, then by all means you can conclude that Barton has been legitimately awful. I don’t trust my eyes enough to make that decision, though.

Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.

by salb918 on Sep 3, 2008 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the problem

is that while yes, I do seem to see a lot of those (from everyone on the A’s) when it comes to their comps, I can’t say that the frequency is higher or lower than them. So even if you knew that say 50% were soft and 50% hard, you can’t say that it’s purely suckage without knowing that other guys are say 25% soft and 75% hard. If they turned out to be 75% soft and 25%, then Barton has had some serious bad luck or they’ve had some serious good luck.

In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!

by DMOAS on Sep 3, 2008 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure if there's an objective standard here

Which I’d guess would be based on angle off the bat, velocity, arc, distance, and a bunch of other stuff that’s pretty impossible to determine quickly and accurately. But my educated guess is that people who know baseball (and I assume that’s who’s doing this) are going to, more often than not, call a lot of those balls fly balls. While they might not be of the pop up variety, they’re soft and typically “can o’ corn” types of plays. It might only get x number of feet off the ground, but for all intents and purposes it’s a fly out.

The only time this really should be an issue (the bad hitting) is if a guy hits a lot of weak line drives to infielders. In this case, a line drive is a line drive and if Barton’s hitting a lot of those then maybe the answer is #3. I don’t think that’s true though.

by thejd44 on Sep 3, 2008 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The stats do differentiate

between flyballs and line drives.

Barton’s home run per flyball rate is 6.4. That’s around what a middle infielder would do. For comparison, Ellis’ homerun per flyball hit is at 7.3 % , Crosby at 5. For a guy who hits as many flyballs as Barton, and who is a 1b, that’s a pretty damn pathetic lack of power.

As sal posted, even if his BABIP were normal, in line with his line drive rate, he’d still need to either find (much) more power, or change his approach and start hitting more grounders and run faster, to be a decent hitter at 1b.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Sep 3, 2008 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wonder if technology exist to measure angle/speed of ball coming off the bat

That would be a better measure than line drives, which could be influenced by human judgment. Knowing the angle+speed of the batted ball would give a much reliable way to estimate how long the ball travels in the air and where it lands, and the chance of fielders reacting to it, and getting to it before it lands. If they can track where a pitch crosses the plate, it seems that they may not be far away from tracking balls leaving the bat.

by asfansince1989 on Sep 3, 2008 3:54 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

You're right.

Scuttlebutt is that hit f/x, similar to pitch f/x, is coming in the next few years. If it does, then we’ll know a lot more about the trajectory of batted balls.

Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.

by salb918 on Sep 3, 2008 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That data would be about the coolest thing ever.

by chri5 on Sep 3, 2008 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The technology is already in use on the PGA Tour

I forget what it’s called, but certain PGA telecasts give you the ball speed, launch angle, and track the flight of the ball.

This technology just needs to be installed in major league stadiums and then someone needs to compile the data. I would imagine this information will become publically available sometime in the next few years.

My subjective eye tells me that Barton is a guy that develops poor ball speed; that has been my concern with Barton for the past few years as I’ve gotten the chance to see him live — he just doesn’t hit the ball hard. Even in batting practice he rarely hits a ball hard. He hits balls squarely, but he rarely creates great ball speed to my subjective eye. Even his home runs — to my subjective eye — appear to be the confluence of a solid strike with optimal launch angle rather than high initial velociity. Line drive percentage won’t account for that, because the current data system is too crude to evaluate ball speed. In other words, not all line drives are equal in value, but the current system weighs them all equally. Barton could be unlucky, or the current data classification (which is itself nothing more than a subjective system in which we have decided to create three categories) is a poor predictor of Barton’s ability to avoid gloves of the high level of defenders that populate MLB.

My prediction is that ball speed data on Barton would show that the ball comes off his bat slower than the average hitter, and thus his “line drives” end up being caught more. Scouts are particularly adept at evaluating ball speed with their eye, they just call it something different, i.e., “the ball jumps off his bat.” Scouts have consistently questioned Barton’s power potential because he just doesn’t generate much ball speed. It is entirely possible that his overall mediocre numbers in AAA (look at the MLEs on his AAA stats) the past two years and the struggles this year are a result of his inability to generate ball speed.

Clubhead speed in golf, and the concomitant rise in ball speed, can be developed in golf, and it can be developed in baseball. Barton’s selective eye will hopefully allow him to succeed despite his lack of true impact ball speed — assuming my subjective eye, and those of the dozens of scouts that have said the same thing about him is correct — but my sense is that Barton is simply going to have to get stronger or more mechanically efficient if he is ever going to be an impact player. He may need to do so to even remain in the MLB. I eagerly await the data to test my subjective opinion, assuming of course that Barton has not increased his ball speed prior to the data being collected and available.

by BlameChannel53 on Sep 3, 2008 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Barton Stinks

by Fat Pubis on Sep 3, 2008 4:52 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for contributing to the discussion you big package of dumb.

Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.

by salb918 on Sep 3, 2008 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

you're not a writer, you're a write-off!

There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Sep 3, 2008 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here's your other comment

Nico is what?

You are a troll. I’m flagging this.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Sep 3, 2008 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Sep 3, 2008 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

After carefully reading the Staturday post and yours

I have humbly concluded that they have a slightly better argument than yours.

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Sep 3, 2008 6:28 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Stupid reply button

That’s meant for Fat Pubis (is it a CGV to type that?).

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Sep 3, 2008 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

We make an exception for "The Pube"

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 3, 2008 9:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

O/T 13-10 Salt Lake Bees over Rivercats going to top of 9

Baisley 4-4 with 2HR 2B and a walk and 3 RBI’s

Rivercats first 3 pitchers gave up all 13 runs in 5.1 innings

I hate unproductive outs and the A's are producing them at record production

by Trainman on Sep 3, 2008 10:35 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

He has to be better than Hannahan. Hell, if he had no arms he would be better.

Hope we see him

I hate unproductive outs and the A's are producing them at record production

by Trainman on Sep 3, 2008 10:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And hes right handed!

"With 16-year-old Dominican righty Michel Inoa in tow, Gio Gonzalez improving at Triple-A and lefty Brett Anderson carving up Double-Abatters along with Simmons and Trevor Cahill, Oakland’s pitching depthis officially the envy of baseball." - BaseballAmerica.com

by Syphon on Sep 3, 2008 11:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can't we infer from Barton's low SLG-BA that his line drives are softer than average?

It would be a strange hitter that hit all really hard singles and few XBH.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 3, 2008 10:54 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

How do you account for foulouts/park factor when looking at BABIP for Oakland players?

Foul outs are in play outs, right? So shouldn’t Oakland players tend to have lower than expected BABIP?

Jeremy was safe. He jumped over the tag.

by mrrickyg on Sep 4, 2008 12:04 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

At the risk of

demonstrating my ignorance (and laziness/lack of time) for this topic (yet again), my only contribution to this post is that I continue to be amazed at the salb’s and PT’s and all others who have me watching the game differently. (And that’s a good thing).

Truly riveting material.

I'm here to talk about the past.

by 67MARQUEZ on Sep 4, 2008 8:51 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I appreciate that you are willing to take a different look at things

Because so many fans will just absolutely not have any non-traditional, conventional opinion about baseball.

by thejd44 on Sep 4, 2008 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

corrected

Truly riveting stapling material.

There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Sep 4, 2008 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seems like a good time for a Brad Ziegler joke.

Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.

by salb918 on Sep 4, 2008 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

that would be an underhanded move

There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Sep 4, 2008 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Oakland Athletics.

Community Guidelines ANcillary Terms
Start posting about the Athletics »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Eck_small
DLD 2/8/10: Statue of Bud Selig to be erected in Milwaukee
Maya_papi_small
Please Welcome Your 2030 Starting Oakland/San Jose/Fremont/Las Vegas Athletics Third Baseman Alexander Bleszinski
Oak_small
Ratto: Bill King *should* be in HoF!
Countdown_small
Tuesday Tidbits with Taj
Baseball_small
Ladies and Gentelmen, Meet Your 2010... Moshi Ants!

Recent FanPosts

Small
Don't understand cutting Taveras
Oaklandathletics_small
Tavares update: I'm crushed.
3208444410_7f31090a14_small
How Adrian Gonzalez can become an Oakland A.
Small
A's Chances
Small
Billy Beane's Magic: Mark Mulder (Version 2)
39135485-59af19dbb26654095f910f34176af094_4ae8a81e-scaled_small
Predictions Group
Small
Blue Jays acquire Dana Eveland for player to be named.
Funny-pictures12_small
A's Agree To Terms With......
Cat_nmorgan_small
A's Stolen Base Records, odds and ends, and such...

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SPONSORS


Managers

Maya_papi_small Tyler Bleszinski

08-_the_author_small 67MARQUEZ

Baseball_small baseballgirl

Poochini-butt_in_box_2_small Nico

Authors

Jacoav200_small danmerqury

Paradeshot_small jeffro

A_s_pic_5 emperor nobody

Moderators

Countdown_small Taj Adib

Logo_small gigglingone

Img_1185_small notsellingjeans

Small vignette17

Venasfans_small OaklandSi

As_kings_cal_small louismg