Sliding Suzuki
by batterbatter on Sep 27, 2008 12:39 AM PDT
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I guess at this point in the season, pretty much every player is playing on half gears. But has anyone else notice that Suzuki's average has fallen to .279 or thereabout? This number isn't so bad but if you factor Suzuki's lack of power from the catcher's position, it is troubling. Good catchers are averaging 15-20 HRs, even if they hit for a lower average. For Suzuki to be even considered a decent offensive catcher, with his lack of power, he should be hitting close to .300. At this rate, is Suzuki gonna be our leadoff hitter next year and become Jason Kendall Circa 2007?
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It seems a little early to be making those assumptions.
and Zook is a good catcher. He’s already hit more home runs than Kendall ever hit with the A’s. And since when are HR’s the only gauge for how good a catcher is? He’s young — he’s going to get better. Kendall, not so much. I think you’re be rushing judgment on this.
We're in a team-wide funk. ~Mark Ellis
by #14fan on Sep 27, 2008 1:31 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
whoops....typo
We're in a team-wide funk. ~Mark Ellis
by #14fan on Sep 27, 2008 1:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It seems that everytime
a comment is made on AN about some rookie player, the first thing that is said is that he doesn’t have enough power. These guys are rookies, you cannot project a player based on his rookie year. If you want to say that Crosby has no power, fine, there is a body of bad work to say that, but Sweeney, Buck, Gonzalez, Barton, Pennington, and every other player I see mentioned has not been in the league long enough to project. When they have played in the league 4 or 5 years then make your comments.
by Laoren on Sep 27, 2008 8:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
He was about 100 ABs over the limit last year
For all intents and purposes, he’s basically a rookie. I think Laoren’s point is sort of a good one, except you don’t need 4 or 5 years to form an opinion on a guy. Plus, age is more important than service time when it comes to deloping power.
by thejd44 on Sep 27, 2008 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
body of work: minor league numbers count, too.
maybe you can’t say cliff pennington has very little power based on his 0 hr and .305 slg over 95 at bats, but you can say pennington has very little power based on his 15 hr over 1,500 minor league at bats.
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by xbhaskarx on Sep 28, 2008 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Suzuki hit right around .300 for his first 120 games
Had he been rested enough throughout the season, he might have finished strong and hit right around .300 over a terrific 130 game season. What you’re seeing in September is a guy who has been run into the ground at the most demanding position in the game. Suzuki is fine; the A’s use of their starting catchers is not.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Sep 27, 2008 9:10 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It's pretty probable that the team won more games this year because of how often they played him
even if his stats look worse because of it.
I don’t see what the issue is here. He’s not hurt, at least not in any long-term way, just tired.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Sep 27, 2008 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not just looking at this year, though -
the A’s need to avoid wearing him down over the years because catching is SO physically demanding. An ounce of prevention…
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Sep 27, 2008 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shrug
Suzuki’s not Joe Mauer, where you figure he’s got a limit to the number of games he can likely catch in the big leagues before his knees go out. And I don’t really see him as a franchise player, so there’s little incentive to baby him for the very long term.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Sep 27, 2008 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why are you so down on Suzuki?
To me he has everything you’d want from a long-term franchise catcher. He’s a plus offensive and defensive player and he’s durable. Seems like the definition of the guy you’d want to keep around as long as possible. It’s just reckless to burn him out.
by thejd44 on Sep 27, 2008 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not "so down" on him
I’m suggesting the team act exactly the same way toward him that you’d act toward any other slightly-above-average player— get the most you can out of his cost-controlled years, then let him leave once the cost exceeds the benefits. If the A’s were the Red Sox, it’d be a different story.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Sep 27, 2008 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have you looked at Mauer and Suzuki's
knees via exploratory surgery? Otherwise, you are coming to some very extreme conclusions based simply on Mauer’s height.
Sure, Mauer is taller, and heavier, so there are likely more shear and compressive forces on his knees when he squats.
Still, just because a catcher is not as tall as Mauer does not mean that his workload does not need to be managed.
Stress IS NOT bad. TOO MUCH stress TOO SOON is bad. The human body is not like the tires on your car, despite the belief of some / many stat influenced fans. It’s a living organism that can grow stronger, with the correct amount of stress.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Sep 28, 2008 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Leave the straw man out in the cornfield, thanks
I didn’t suggest they play him 162 games a season.
I see no evidence whatsoever that 130 games is not harmful and 140 games is. That’s all.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Sep 28, 2008 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've come to the conclusion that "straw man" is code for
“You addressed my actual argument and I have no rebuttal.” BTW, as a .285 hitter with a good eye, some power, who hits to all fields with a controlled swing, and who is already excellent at calling games, working with pitchers, catching balls in the dirt and throwing out potential base-stealers – all after his first full season in the big leagues – I’d say Kurt Suzuki is a LOT more than a “slightly above average” major league catcher going forward.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Sep 28, 2008 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
His CS% is slightly above average... his batting stats are slightly above average for a catcher...
The only thing at which he appears to be “the best” is preventing WP/PB, and that may (or may not) have something to do with the pitchers that are throwing to him.
I stand by my contention. It’s not slagging him— I think he’s about as good as the average player on a playoff team… which is good, since you need a bunch of those to actually HAVE a playoff team… just that he’s not some kind of budding superstar.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Sep 28, 2008 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think he's a budding superstar.
I do, however, think he’s on his way to becoming more than a “slightly above average” catcher.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Sep 28, 2008 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Strawman?
You said
Suzuki’s not Joe Mauer, where you figure he’s got a limit to the number of games he can likely catch in the big leagues before his knees go out
Looks like I’m giving you too much credit. How does it make sense that one catcher needs his number of games limited to protect his knees, but another catcher doesn’t?
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Sep 29, 2008 7:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It makes sense because Mauer is an elite player and Suzuki isn't one
Every team should protect its elite players, because it should ideally be looking to keep those guys for the long haul regardless of the cost.
On top of which, Mauer a. has demonstrated a propensity to suffer injuries related to catching, and b. has a physique which makes him especially prone to suffer those injuries.
Maybe if I was Kurt Suzuki’s mom, I’d want him playing fewer games… but I’m not, I’m an A’s fan. One guy’s play justifies the kid-glove treatment; the other’s doesn’t. That’s not saying the A’s should deliberately try to “use him up”, which would be obviously unethical, just that if maximizing the team’s wins requires the expense of slightly damaging Suzuki’s later career with the White Sox, I don’t mind.
Just a general point: When people say someone “has a limit to the number of games/pitches/whatever”, they do not mean it to be taken literally. If it was literally true, then you might as well play Joe Mauer 162 games a season until he runs out of “catching games”, then dump him, or have a pitcher throw 300 innings a season until his arm falls off. It’s a shorthand for saying that they think that even given basically normal, careful usage, the player won’t last forever and you had better make contingency plans for moving the player around or replacing him.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Sep 29, 2008 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There goes my idea to have Duchscherer throw
the first 150 innings of the season to help the A’s get off to a good start.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on Sep 29, 2008 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As for the evidence as to whether
130 is not harmful, and 140 is not harmful, I repeat stress is not bad. Too much stress too soon is bad.
If the athlete’s performance starts deteriorating, it isn’t just always “random variation”.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Sep 29, 2008 7:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Suzuki, depsite his slump, is already a top 10 catcher in baseball
I’m again taking the bait by responding to a post that cites batting average as if it actually means all that much, but here goes: Where did this ridiculous notion that catcher is a position where all this great offense emerges even come from? Every generation there’s 2 or 3 catchers who can really, really hit. That’s about it. Suzuki might not be on the HOF track, but that doesn’t mean he’s not good offensively.
Doing a quick search, here are the catchers this season with 15+ homers:
McCann 23
Soto 23
Shoppach 21 (WTF?)
Napoli 19
Iannetta 19
B. Molina 16
Snyder 16
Doumit 15
R. Hernandez 15
This year, 8 catchers have 15+ homers. Martin and Pierzynski have an outside chance of reaching 15 since they both have 13 right now. Here’s the thing, most of those catchers listed play in the NL and/or a hitters park. Most of them are also not anywhere near the defensive catcher that Suzuki is.
Most importantly: using batting average and home runs as the only measure of offensive ability, or even the two most important measures, is ridiculous and should never be done. Joe Mauer is the best offensive catcher in baseball and he doesn’t have 15 homers in a season. Ever.
(One last note, Suzuki has a .259 EQA right now. Average for catchers is .252. Even after this big slump he’s been in, he’s still above average offensively. I think with a manager who didn’t run him into the ground, he’d still be hovering around .270-.275)
by thejd44 on Sep 27, 2008 9:51 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I see no issue here
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by Flashfire on Sep 27, 2008 11:59 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
by flipgatey3 on Sep 27, 2008 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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