Ziggy the Starter!

by StevenD on Sep 2, 2008 9:20 PM PDT

1) Before you blast the notion, remember the debate from two years ago on whether Duke should be a starter. Many said he was simply too valuable in the pen to move to the rotation, and as Billy seemingly agreed with that argument, there was no factual way to disprove how bad a decision it was. Until this year when we saw firsthand that as good as Duke was as a reliever, he’s even more valuable as a starter.

The basic rule of thumb is the following: The better the pitcher, the more innings you want to get out of him every season. This lowers the total runs the team gives up per season, which in turn improves the Pythagorean and the expected number of wins. If anyone in the pen can make the transition to starter it is probably Ziggy, as he is so efficient with his pitches. He pitches to contact and gets lots of double plays. I’m sure he’ll eventually add an “out” pitch that will make him even more dangerous. That may slightly increase his number of pitches per inning, but he’s still a great candidate for making the transition.

We have some great relievers without him, and besides, relievers are much easier to find than starters. Why waste his arm warming up every other day when we can get so many more total MLB pitches out of him by putting him on a 5 day rotation.

2) Once I’m spouting heresies, send Barton to AAA next year and have him split his time between first base and catcher. Chavez will be our first baseman next year, and with Cust as DH and four young outfielders who will be needing time, there is no room for Barton to play fulltime in the majors. We rushed him a bit thinking he would be the next Pujols, and heck, even I thought so with the way he ended last season. Now that it seems like he has room to grow, while he have other promising 1B/DH types behind him, why not let he return to the position he loves? A first baseman who is also a reliable backup catcher is much more valuable to us and to any team we consider trading him to, plus it lets us get more of his prime years.

3) Instead of just attacking my heresies, also try to produce your own. The best way to mock my suggestions is to make an even stronger case for an even more absurd idea. So come on. Let’s see what you've got.

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I don't see Ziggy as a starter

but I have heard stranger suggestions in the past. But, that is just my opinion.

by mrod on Sep 2, 2008 9:38 PM PDT 0 recs

Why not?

According to Baseball-Reference, he was a pretty successful starter from 2004-2006… so why not? (Are those numbers from before or after he adopted his current delivery?)

Maybe there are enough other starters in the system that they don’t need him to start, though. Duke, Gonzalez, Braden, Smith, Eveland … that’s not a bad rotation, is it? But maybe Z would be better than one of those last three guys, though. It’d be worth trying.

I agree with sending Barton to AAA, because all I’ve seen him do lately is watch pitches go by.

by gohlkus on Sep 2, 2008 9:40 PM PDT 0 recs

Before

I’m not aware of any submariner who starts games (probably because they tend not to have 4-5 pitches).

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Sep 2, 2008 9:45 PM PDT up 0 recs

Sort of Byung-Yung-Hung-Slider Kim

but I guess he’s a little closer to “sidearm” than “submarine”? But since the challenge was to mock the post by making a yet more absurd suggestion, let me put out the idea that with Frank Thomas and Mike Sweeney as our DP combination up the middle, we could afford to sacrifice a little offense elsewhere and sign Neifi Perez to DH.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 2, 2008 9:58 PM PDT up 0 recs

When did the A's start caring about what others did?

by StevenD on Sep 3, 2008 5:27 AM PDT up 0 recs

when (and, fortunately, only when) what others do makes sense

I know of one MLB starter (Harden) who can get by on two pitches. Ziggy does not have Harden’s stuff.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Sep 3, 2008 8:28 AM PDT up 0 recs

And according to everybody else, Duke still doesn’t have the stuff that ANYBODY else wanted… I didn’t even hear about any trade offers for him.

Just because it hasn’t been done before, or has rarely been tried, isn’t reason to try it

Personally, I think we have enough starters and Ziggy is more valuable in the pen to lock up games

BUT – I’m not against the idea of Ziggy starting if our bullpen was rock solid and one of the starters faulters.

His stuff has worked for a couple innings at a time, who’s to say it WON’T work as a starter? Nobody can honestly say they know for a FACT that Ziggy can’t get through a line up a few times over. His stuff is hard to hit when hes on, PERIOD. If he can keep it low and in on a righty dominated line up he could get by on two pitches for quite awhile.

by BillMoresi on Sep 4, 2008 11:19 AM PDT up 0 recs

Duchscherer has three pitches

Ziegler has one and sort of a second.

It actually goes further than that, because Duke has perfect command of all three of his and Ziegler’s command of his slider is rudimentary. They just aren’t comparable players. Duke was always a starter working in short stints. Ziegler is a Relief Pitcher.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 5, 2008 12:29 AM PDT up 0 recs

The Big Train

Walter Johnson was’nt bad. All he had was a fastball, and change up. He developed a curve later in his carrer but was afraid to throw it as he almost killed someone with it. However he was sort of sidearm submarine with blazing speed.

Stomp,em, stomp the piss out of em.Then pound the budweiser after the game. Joe Schultz Seattle Piolts Mgr 1969

by billyball1981 on Sep 3, 2008 10:15 AM PDT up 0 recs

And that was more than a few years ago

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Sep 3, 2008 10:19 AM PDT up 0 recs

Harden throws two pitches

Ziggy ain’t Harden, but just saying that the few pitch argument is a little lacking in analysis. If they are good pitches, then why not just two?

by mikedaviswhereareyou on Sep 3, 2008 10:48 AM PDT up 0 recs

Because Harden's fastball is in the upper 90s and he misses bats with it?

It’s not like Ziegler has a big difference between his fastball and change. His pitches move more and come in from a different angle. Harden just overpowers hitters while Ziegler relies on his defense.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Sep 3, 2008 11:33 AM PDT up 0 recs

I don't know, Harden's changeup moves all over the place.

by OldhamA on Sep 3, 2008 11:48 AM PDT up 0 recs

And there's a big MPH difference, which I already said.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Sep 3, 2008 11:51 AM PDT up 0 recs

Actually, guys like B. Webb and D. Lowe

are pretty much two-pitch pitchers (sinker, slider). If your sinker is good enough, you can be an effective starter with just sinker and slider.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 3, 2008 6:50 PM PDT up 0 recs

Yeah, but Webb's sinker is devastating. I mean, that's more than just a plus pitch for him.

It’s like a +++++ pitch.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Sep 3, 2008 7:01 PM PDT up 0 recs

Right - but then the issue isn't

that Ziggy only throws two pitches, it’s that his sinker isn’t “Brandon Webb devastating”. Though actually Ziggy throws three pitches: sinker, (frisbee) slider, and changeup.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 3, 2008 8:01 PM PDT up 0 recs

That's just not true ...

Webb throws both his breaking ball twice as often as Ziggy and his change up more than three times as often …

D Lowe isn’t throwing his change up much this year, though still 50% more than Ziggy, but he throws his breaking ball nearly five times as often.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Sep 3, 2008 11:39 PM PDT up 0 recs

Better comp would be Mike Pelfrey

he relies a lot on his sinker / 2 seam fastball, with some sliders. He is throwing more 4 seamers this year it seems.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Sep 5, 2008 12:18 AM PDT up 0 recs

Of course, Pelfrey throws his fastball harder.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Sep 5, 2008 12:21 AM PDT up 0 recs

I agree

by BillMoresi on Sep 4, 2008 11:22 AM PDT up 0 recs

+1

by Technotofu on Sep 3, 2008 8:13 PM PDT up 0 recs

I'm not either ...

aside from, perhaps, Kim, who has a pretty darn low sidearm … and Ziggy isn’t quite in Chadford territory …

But I do know this, Staturday’s analysis shows that throwing more pitches isn’t necessary for starter success. While Ziggy certainly is not comparable to Rich Harden, Ben Sheets or Eric Bedard — he does have a fair amount in common with Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine, crafty slowballers who also only throw two pitches …

I’m not sure that Ziggy doesn’t derive a great amount of his effectiveness from his unique style. As Sal’s non-staturday article showed, Ziggy’s pitches look very, very different from more normal pitchers — but seeing it three or four times might give give a batter the advantage …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Sep 3, 2008 12:48 PM PDT up 0 recs

Two pitches is one thing

Ziegler is not a two-pitch pitcher. He throws over 88% fastballs, and the 12% that aren’t are disproportionately thrown in two-strike counts.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 3, 2008 2:39 PM PDT up 0 recs

That's true ...

based on the standard in the article, Ziggy would only be a one pitch pitcher … didn’t look into it that closely …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Sep 3, 2008 4:57 PM PDT up 0 recs

He was mainly a run-of-the-mill starter in the minors with above average control.

Nothing spectacular. That’s part of the whole reason they asked him to change his pitching delivery and become a relief pitcher.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Sep 2, 2008 10:09 PM PDT up 0 recs

Everyone agrees to send Barton to AAA.

I say once he’s there, have him play catcher.

by StevenD on Sep 3, 2008 5:17 AM PDT up 0 recs

Absolutely not

The way he pitches now, he is best for late-game, high-pressure situations. He would be wasted as a starter, especially with the talent the A’s have within the organization at that spot.

As for my mocking suggestion, Rajai Davis at catcher. He wouldn’t have to throw on a stolen base or bunt attempt. He could simply chase down the runner himself.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Sep 2, 2008 10:12 PM PDT 0 recs

Wasted?

He would do better than anyone else we currently have. You’re making the same exact argument that used to be said about Duke. He’s too valuable to move to the rotation.

by StevenD on Sep 3, 2008 5:21 AM PDT up 0 recs

No, I don't.

Duke has a better set of pitches than Ziegler does, first of all.

Secondly, the nature of a submarine pitcher’s deceptive delivery suggests they work best only one time through a lineup. As a starter, it’s just not a good idea. Look at how Kim struggled. Look at his stats and compare his time as a relief pitcher to his time as a starter and there’s no question which role he was better in.

You don’t start sidearm/submarine pitchers. Not any more. Even Eckersley was just mediocre as a starter after his first few seasons.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Sep 3, 2008 9:46 AM PDT up 0 recs

Ziegler has one and a half pitches

Those guys don’t work as starters, at least not above the college level. See a guy enough times in a row and you will eventually figure out (I’m not talking mentally here, I’m talking physiologically) that you need to swing under the pitch.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 2, 2008 10:23 PM PDT 0 recs

Even if his ERA doubles or triples

You’d still want him to be a starter. He’d have to learn another pitch, but he’s working on that anyway.

Do you agre that Barton should spend his year in AAA learning how to catch?

by StevenD on Sep 3, 2008 5:23 AM PDT up 0 recs

Barton doesn't need to learn how to catch. He did it in the minors before coming to the A's.

But he’s not going to last as a catcher.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Sep 3, 2008 9:47 AM PDT up 0 recs

His FIP is 3.35

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that you really don’t want that doubling or tripling.

Barton is not a catcher, he is not going to be a catcher, and he is not going to learn to be a good catcher in a year. If you want him to learn another position, stick him at third base.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 3, 2008 12:44 PM PDT up 0 recs

'Even if his ERA doubles or triples'

Now that you mention it, as I recall, his ERA did double or triple, with every single appearance for several weeks!

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Sep 3, 2008 2:33 PM PDT up 0 recs

My mocking suggestion is easy

Clone Jack Cust (several times), accelerate his growth so he’s in his twenties by next season, ????, profit.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Sep 2, 2008 10:53 PM PDT 0 recs

you sound like the damn gnomes that I catch pilfering in my closet

by oakinboston on Sep 3, 2008 8:29 AM PDT up 0 recs

That's like telling Jack Cust to be an everyday left fielder...ain't coming to a ballpark any time soon...sorry.

by mattman on Sep 2, 2008 11:03 PM PDT 0 recs

A more absurd idea?

The A’s going a month without using the DL….

by buddahead9 on Sep 2, 2008 11:23 PM PDT 0 recs

Bobby Crosby, closer

There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Sep 2, 2008 11:40 PM PDT 0 recs

closer to the plate, you mean?

That IS ridiculous.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Sep 3, 2008 8:11 AM PDT up 0 recs

Bobby Crosby, farther

… away from Oakland, please.

There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Sep 3, 2008 12:16 PM PDT up 0 recs

Emil Brown, Cleanup hitter

wait…

by noava22 on Sep 3, 2008 2:03 AM PDT 0 recs

Bobby Crosby, hitting in the 3 spot

by OaklandSi on Sep 3, 2008 6:43 AM PDT up 0 recs

Giambi 1st base

Probably very unpopular here, but I would love to see him come home. I would get rid of Cust for whatever is available and plug Giambi at DH. I think however it is far more likely Mr. Chavez will see the most DH at bats next year while he learns to play 1B. I have not given up on Barton and disagree a year in the minors would do him much good.

Baja been here

by bajablue on Sep 3, 2008 4:56 PM PDT up 0 recs