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If you're serious about fixing 3rd base, here's the way to go

It’s obvious that the A’s need a new 3B.

 

Chavez’s shoulder won’t let him make the necessary throws, Hannahan can’t hit and Jeff Baisley is, well, Jeff Baisley. What do we want from a new 3B? Let’s make a list:

 

Good, reliable defense.

Above average offense, preferably with 20 homerun RH pop.

Affordable.

Young enough to maybe give us some peak years production.

Under team control long enough to help the A’s compete in a couple years.

Healthy!

Doesn’t cost us Brett Anderson or Trevor Cahill to acquire.

 

Sounds doable.

Star-divide

I think I know a way to get all that but there’s a bit of a problem. The problem is the A’s lack a necessary piece needed to make the trade I envision. They need a young, B-grade or better SP who spent the 2008 primarily in A-ball. In essence, they need another Anderson or Cahill, pre-2008 version. Fortunately there’s a solution to this problem and his name is Huston Street. No, Street can’t be offered up in lieu of the unnamed prospect but he can be dealt to another team for a package that includes our A-ball hurler. Street is certainly worth more then 1 A-ball arm but the rest of that package isn’t relevant to my latest trade proposal.

 

The A’s need to pursue Washington Nationals 3B Ryan Zimmerman. And I mean it when I say pursue… the Nationals aren’t shopping Zimmerman. The A’s are going to have to go after him.

 

Let’s start with all the negatives that some people will fixate on when talking about this idea. Washington GM Jim Bowden is a tough person to deal with. Ryan Zimmerman is exactly the kind of young, talented player a team like the Nationals should be trying to build around. Zimmerman missed time earlier in the year do to a left shoulder injury, luckily he avoided surgery and is supposed to be fully recovered. (He’s hitting 313/366/489 since August 1, proof enough?) He could stand to draw a few more walks.

 

As to why A’s fans should want Mr. Zimmerman, let’s go back to our list. Zimmerman turns 24 in December and is under team control for 3 more seasons. According to the guy who runs Federal Baseball (SBN’s Nationals site) Ryan doesn’t seem to want to go through arbitration the next three years, he’d prefer a contract that covers the next few seasons. Assuming that’s true, I’d want to give him a contract similar to what the A’s gave Swisher a year ago. Sign him through his arby years at $3.5/5.5/7 million, $10 million to cover his first year of FA eligibility in 2012 and a $13 million option for 2013. Something along that line should suffice and those are his peak years at an affordable sticker price.

 

What would it take to make this happen? Again, talking to Ed over at Federal Baseball, it looks like a deal could be had that didn’t involve Anderson or Cahill if the A’s could find that A-ball arm I was talking about earlier. Mr. Doe, together with Mazzaro, Barton and Cardenas might be enough to land Zimmerman. In a strange twist, I was actually the one arguing that it should cost more to land Zimmerman! Bowden loves guys with tools and with Nick Johnson and Dimitri Young on the books through 2009 he doesn’t need a 1B ready to play in Washington on Day 1. That’s why I think Bowden would ask for Chris Carter instead of Barton. And since Bowden likes to push, he’d also want Henry Rodriguez. Rodriguez has the kind of power arm that Bowden tends to covet and today’s trade market has pushed quantity over quality.

 

So my official trade proposal is Mr. Doe/Mazzaro/Carter/Rodriguez/Cardenas for Ryan Zimmerman. A steep price to be sure, but a low-cost, Gold-Glove caliber 3B with 25 HR pop is hard to come by. Keep in mind this is the high end of what it would cost to acquire Zimmerman. I’d be perfectly willing to close the deal for less! In fact, I’m half tempted to scratch out Cardenas’ name from the list because I kinda doubt Bowden would push for Carter and Cardenas. On the other hand, if Bowden did push for both I wouldn't let Adrian Cardenas keep me from landing Ryan Zimmerman.

 

I’m sure some people are going to be put off by Carter’s inclusion in the mix. Believe me, I’d much rather it be Barton who got sent packing but that switch makes almost no sense for the Nationals. I’d ask for Carter if I was in Bowden’s shoes, why would I expect him to want less then me? This is why my last diary pushed so strongly for the A’s to sign a FA slugger, because I knew that Chris Carter wasn’t going to be an option if I somehow got my way in all this talk. The biggest hole in Washington’s organization is at 1B and Chris Carter’s 40 HR power potential offers the chance to change that. Add in an advanced SP prospect like Mazzaro and a promising young stud like Mr. Doe and I think the A’s are roughly three-quarters of the way to landing Ryan Zimmerman.

 

Let me know what you think.

Poll
What do you think of the plan?
I like it and it sounds plausible
54 votes
Completely unrealistic and I want those 6 minutes of my life back
63 votes
Costs too much, but thanks for trying
180 votes

297 votes | Poll has closed

8 recs | Comment 342 comments

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Carter

I don’t know about Carter. Bowden might not ask for Carter, but for Sean Doolittle. Where Carter looks like he might be a DH, Doolittle looks like a good defensive 1B. NL Teams can’t afford to cope with a no defense slugger as well as AL Teams can.

facepalm.jpg

by Zonis on Sep 10, 2008 11:48 PM PDT   0 recs

That wouldn't be a problem for me

Although it most likely puts Carbenas definitievly in the mix.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 10, 2008 11:55 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Ironically, though, most of the glove-first 1B are in the AL

NL 1B are markedly more “DH-like” (good offense, bad defense) than AL 1B. The difference in OPS is something like 50 points.

The reason, of course, is that the DH-like players in the AL are… playing DH.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 11, 2008 4:32 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I saw Carter against SJ in the playoffs this week

and yes he does look good, but you must remember that the Stockton Ports park is TINY, so his HR’s are definitely inflated. Also, his BA isn’t all that great and he strikes out a lot. He could be a great player, but he is definitely no sure thing, and I don’t think trading him would be all that terrible. However, i wouldn’t want to include him and cardenas together.

"I talked to Paul this morning and asked if he could acquire some chemistry from another GM whose team is out of the race. But I'm concerned chemistry might not clear waivers."
--Beane

by DyeLongJustice on Sep 11, 2008 5:13 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't want to pair Carter and Cardenas either

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 11, 2008 7:33 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

As for his home runs being inflated

The anecdotal evidence I’ve heard is that Carter doesn’t hit too many cheapies. If you hit a ball 400 feet, it’s a home run no matter how tiny the park. This seems to be the general agreement. Has he had a few park-aided? Perhaps. But it’s not like he’s a 20 HR guy who just hits a lot of line drives that barely clear the wall. His homers are of the Cust/Dunn variety (not making a comparison in player types, just the ball going over the fence).

by thejd44 on Sep 11, 2008 9:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The first night I saw Carter he hit 3 jacks.

All of which were absolutely shit on.

Eveland rocks! Eveland rocks! Somewhere Drew Carey just smiled.

by miggyk2 on Sep 12, 2008 1:34 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Wow

That stinks.

by rightbackin on Sep 12, 2008 2:31 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

no dont get me wrong

he’s a legit power threat. but the jack i saw him hit in the playoffs was a warning track shot in most other parks.

"I talked to Paul this morning and asked if he could acquire some chemistry from another GM whose team is out of the race. But I'm concerned chemistry might not clear waivers."
--Beane

by DyeLongJustice on Sep 12, 2008 9:21 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

plus

i think that maybe you could say instead of hitting 40 HRs, maybe he hit 35 in some other park. If that translates to the bigs, we’re looking at more of a jack cust type player (30 HR) with three true outcomes, rather than say a prince fielder/ryan howard (40+ HR).

"I talked to Paul this morning and asked if he could acquire some chemistry from another GM whose team is out of the race. But I'm concerned chemistry might not clear waivers."
--Beane

by DyeLongJustice on Sep 12, 2008 9:25 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

+1

Jack Cust might be Ryan Howard (or better!) if they switched parks.

"are you like some sort of argumentative robot?"

by notsellingjeans on Sep 12, 2008 2:50 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

and leagues

"I talked to Paul this morning and asked if he could acquire some chemistry from another GM whose team is out of the race. But I'm concerned chemistry might not clear waivers."
--Beane

by DyeLongJustice on Sep 14, 2008 8:16 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I say Go for it.

I had Zimmerman on my fantasy team in 2007…and he was a good asset. He’s young too, and that makes it even better to think about.

by IM4Oakgal on Sep 11, 2008 12:05 AM PDT   0 recs

Way too much

It’s insane how much you’re trying to give up for one player about whom you offer up his August stats as “proof enough.”

by RLangford on Sep 11, 2008 12:06 AM PDT   0 recs

I'm really not surprised his point was lost

It was “proof enough” that his shoulder is healthy despite not having surgery. He wasn’t using the small sample size as proof of his overall ability, but just that he’s healthy. This is one case where the sample size really is useful because it’s the time when you’d expect the injury to have an effect on his play.

As far as the trade goes, Bowden may be tough to work with but I also think he’s a pretty dumb GM. I’m not sure Cardenas would have to be in the deal. I think the Mystery A-ball pticher, Mazzaro, Rodriguez, and one of the more toolsy guys in the minors (Corey Brown, perhaps) might be enough. Maybe give them Eric Patterson because he’s kind of the type of player Bowden likes. This might end up not being enough, but I don’t think you have to give up a lot to get Zimmerman, just the right pieces that might seem like a lot.

by thejd44 on Sep 11, 2008 12:13 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

In mine eye

My max package is less then Arizona gave up to acquire Haren. What am I willing to give up? A 1B who spent 2008 in High-A, a 2B who spent most of the year in High-A, a SP who’s clearly 3rd best on the prospect chart, a guy who’s never played for the org and a power arm who hasn’t found the strike zone outside of A-ball. All that, and there is serious potential in that group, for a major league proven gold glove caliber 3B with 20+ HR power. Who, by the way, hasn’t even hit his prime.

And as thejd44 pointed out, I was referring to Zimmerman being over his shoulder problem when I posted his August+ stats.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 11, 2008 12:39 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

re

Zimmerman is not even close to as valuable as Haren. VORP has Haren literally worth three times as much this year. You’re talking about a guy who’s about the 20th best hitter at his position this year (by rate, exactly mlb league average for third base), not one of the top 10 or so SPs in baseball. Given the defense, Zimmerman is a nice player, and maybe he’ll develop into something more, but he’s certainly not there yet. This would be massive overpayment.

As far as the attrition rate for prospects, that’s just as good a reason to hold on to prospects as it is to trade them, especially when you’re talking about dealing five at one time. The A’s need to keep that pipeline big to ensure that the talent flow stays positive (and the payroll stays down, like it or not).

by 31Boots on Sep 11, 2008 2:48 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

What was Dan Haren's VORP when he was 23?

If Ryan Zimmerman hadn’t missed any time this year and had put up numbers identical to his 2007 performance it would take one of Cahill or Anderson, Bowden’s pick, to land him. If he had matched his 2006 numbers he might be completely unobtainable.

The guy hasn’t even turned 24 yet and you’re implying this is it, he’s not going to continue to develope? Sure that’s happened before but it’s an extremely unlikely scenario. Odds are Zimmerman WILL continue to develope and get better. If you wait until he has a season (say in 2009) that proclaims “I’m really, really freakin’ good!” he’ll become even more expensive to acquire.

Meanwhile, Jack Hannahan is at the top of the A’s depth chart at 3B.

I realize that this is an expensive move and it is not without risk but the payoff is huge.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 11, 2008 6:39 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm not too familiar with the Nats roster or depth chart

but I’m wondering if they might have a need for an outfielder that the A’s could throw in as opposed to including Chris Carter. The A’s obviously are going to have an overcrowded outfield going into the off season and I think that would be one of the positions that Beane will be looking to clarify. I don’t think the rest of the names you propose in that trade are too far off from getting a deal done. Let’s throw the names of the guys that are on the roster out there: Sweeney, Cust, C-Gon, Buck ( i still consider him a big league guy), Raj, Archie, Patterson (even though he’s mostly played 2nd) and guys off the top of my head in the minors:Corey Brown, Chris Denorfia, J-Herrera, Danny Putnam. Obviously, not all of these guys are big league caliber or it remains to be seen but I think from that group you could throw one of the in to be part of the deal instead of Carter.

I just think that considering how much Beane values power, especially when it’s coming from his own system, that Carter will be the one player that won’t be dealt outside of Cahill or Anderson.

A fantastic read by the way, grover. Cheers!

by mrod on Sep 11, 2008 10:31 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Keeping in mind I haven't spoken to Jim Bowden...

I was pretty much told at the start of the conversation that the Nationals weren’t looking for another outfielder. Aaron Cunningham didn’t even come up, which should indicate how strongly they felt about focusing on a 1B.

Glad you enjoyed the read.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 11, 2008 7:36 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

So it sounds like Barton

would definitely or Doolittle would have to be part of that conversation, eh?

by mrod on Sep 11, 2008 11:53 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Be honest though

If you were the GM on another team, talking to the A’s about acquiring a young 1B, who’s the sexiest bitch of the bunch? It’s Carter.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 12, 2008 12:00 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Poor season aside I'd probably take Barton.

Especially considering his impressive defence at first. I could see why you’d fall in love with 40 HRs though.

by OldhamA on Sep 12, 2008 7:57 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

re

I did write “maybe he’ll develop into something more.” You’re taking for granted that he will markedly improve though he’s shown no improvement since his mlb debut, as in zero improvement. There is no evidence based on his track record that his production will explode. And I do not believe that’s a gamble the A’s can afford to take (for the price you name.) They can (and will) better Jack Hannahan without giving up the farm (literally.)

You’re also not addressing the payroll issue here. The financial cost of Zimmerman isn’t just his contract. It’s his contract plus however more the A’s have to pay the players further along the arbitration spectrum that the traded prospects won’t be replacing. It’s also the cost of stopgaps that have to be brought in when an underperforming big leaguer has no replacement ready in the minors. Every prospect that pans out saves the team at least $5m, and potentially a lot more than that. Guys like Eveland and Smith, who will probably settle in as league average or slightly above, will cost the A’s $15-20m more apiece than pitchers in the 1-3 years, if the A’s are forced to hold onto them through their arby years (due to lack of replacements.) If the A’s trade Cardenas they guaranteed have to sign or trade for a 2B or SS. How much is that going to cost? It’s all a domino effect, and it would be nice to believe that the payroll isn’t much of a factor, and the A’s can absorb the additional costs easily, but with this owner I don’t have that kind of faith. If Billy is going to be working with $50m budgets, he can’t afford to trade five solid prospects for Albert Pujols, let alone Ryan Zimmerman.

Finally, it’s also absolutely not essential that the A’s now, or ever, find a long term solution at the position. They could sign a guy like Blake for 2/20m, get average or above production and be just fine, with the bonus of holding on to the prospects. They could get Beltre after next year. I’m sure they could come up with twenty other solutions I can’t even conceive. There are options. I understand that your post presuppose that Zimmerman won’t just be the player he is now, and that the payoff will be huge, but even going by the theory that the A’s need to add a huge payoff player, they could easily find a lower risk player at a different position and shore up 3b with lower cost moves. I’ll just say once more, Ryan Zimmerman is being outhit by over half the starting third baseman in baseball this year. I don’t see how that counts for nothing.

by 31Boots on Sep 12, 2008 1:45 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm amazed by the number of flat-out wrong comments you just made

I suppose the kind thing for me to do would be to address these mistakes without any snark but you insulted me in the process of making yourself look foolish by accusing me of not doing my due diligence in considering the A’s financial constraints before proposing this trade. Let me tell you what I knew about the money side of things before I wrote the first word of my last diary. I’m projecting the A’s, as currently constructed, to have a $39 million payroll next year with $11 million going to Chavez and $5.25 million to (hopefully) finish Crosby’s Athletics career. Chavez is signed through 2011, with a guaranteed $12 million payday in 2010 and $12.5 option ($3 million buy-out) for 2011. The A’s are looking at 4 serious arbitration cases over the next two years with Duke (2009) Casilla (2010) Street and Cust (2009, 2010). I admit I’m assuming that Bowen, Murton and Denorfia get shipped ala Marco Scutaro before they get expensive. The 2010 payroll looks to be roughly on par with the 2009 numbers.

I didn’t do any serious number crunching for 2011 because there are too many unknowns. Does Duke get an extension? Do Buck and Barton rebound? Is Cust still around? Does Beane sign any free agents in the next two years? I consider all these things before I wrote any of this. You can tell I thought about them because I wrote all this and posted it on AN.

Moving on, it was flat out foolish of you to even suggest that Beane is going to be stuck with a $50 million budget over the next few years. From 2004-2007 Beane’s payroll burget ranged from $55 million to $79 million. There is no reason to assume that Beane wouldn’t have those monetary resources available to him if the situation presented itself.

Ryan Zimmerman is 23 years old, he had a bit of a sophmore slump with the bat in 2007 and he was banged up over the first 4 months of 2008 so yes his numbers are down from his rookie year. For now, anyways. I’m actually expecting his 2008 OPS to rebound and finish higher then his 2007 numbers, which would then allow you to cram your "zero improvement arguement in an appropriate local. And by the way, while Zimmerman’s bat did produce less in 2007 then it did in 2006 his defense improved but I understand if you don’t want to acknowledge that.

You want to argue that his track record shows no evidence of improvement and you choose to ignore the volumes of evidence that state how players Zimmerman’s age tend to improve as they get older. It’s possible that his 2006 was a flash in the pan but there are too many indicators that suggest otherwise for me to give it much thought.

As for giving up the farm, well, that’s just plain silly.

Mazzaro is no better then the 3rd rated SP prospect in the A’s system. Cardenas is not a SS, but look at him as a MI and there’s Petit, Pennington and Sellers above him (in terms of readiness if not pure talent) and Weeks, Horton, Christian and Leyja behind him. Hell, I don’t care if you consider Cardenas a SS, 2B or 3B he’s still looks to be at least a year and a half away from helping in Oakland. Carter has a big time bat but the A’s have CarGon, Buck, Cunningham, Sweeney and Cust ahead of him in the OF, Barton and Doolittle ahead of him at 1B. Rodriguez is a relief pitcher and Mr. Doe is coming from someone else’s organization.

Giving up the farm? I didn’t even tear down the chicken coop!

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 12, 2008 8:27 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Reasons why expecting a 50 million dollar payroll in 2009-2011 is not foolish

In 2004-2007, your point of comparison:

1: The A’s were "contending", justifying a higher level of expenditure on statistically-predictable "filler" type players (see Jay Payton, Scott Hatteberg….) to reconfigure/retool an existing aggregate that was never perfect, but good enough to make it to the crap shoot. Right now, that aggregate is damn near non-existent. Further, though I like the idea that Billy Beane’s competitive streak will prevent him from bearing out a third/fourth consecutive losing season – I place about as much faith in that little nugget of conventional A’s folk wisdom as I do in Lew Wolff’s claims of "Billy won’t spend my money!!" Personally, I think Beane’s pre-emptive tear down at best saved us from the slow decline of the club, a la 94-96. But I think you need to warm up to the possibility of a few more years a la 97-99 – where the A’s let their farm system sort itself out on the cheap with the big league club, and then made the type of prospects-for-established-young-major-leaguer (Damon, Dye, Lilly…) deals you are suggesting only after getting an idea of how their first round of blue chip talent plays out. Until then, prepare to suffer the Wasdins and Telgheders of outrageous (mis)fortune.

2. The A’s were not trying to build a new stadium. In discussions of their annual expenditures, the A’s were (and are) always quick to point out operating costs at the Coliseum, the problems of dealing with large walk-up crowds, etc… hence the conception of the giant glad bag over the upper decks. If these seemingly minor venue issues pose such a significant impact to the team’s bottom line that they are willing to risk alienating and effectively pricing out a portion of their already meager audience to save a few bucks –why wouldn’t this same ruthless efficiency be applied to the costs of the new stadium venture? Yes, the A’s are obviously saving a lot of dough on player costs right now, and I agree that money will be/is being spent – but to assume that it will be spent on more players any time soon is wishful thinking. That money is being consumed by the stadium process. By extension…

3. The A’s were not (quite so) boldly proclaiming their intentions to leave Oakland, or at least the prospect of it had not yet become so real/inevitable to the fanbase. I love the 40 year anniversary radio spots and commercials, but (especially with the soundtrack in the retrospective commercials) they are steeped in the somber tones of a memorial. The "All-You-Can-Eat" section has replaced Oakland on the upper deck glad bag. Attendance has been on the decline since 2006. Yes, the economy sucks – but with last season’s final purge of identifiable player names & faces – it’s safe to say that the "casual fan" backlash is on. One virtue of fielding a much younger team is the potential for a modicum of roster stability that the "casual fans" feel cheated out of– but until the Giambi’s, Hudson’s, Tejada’s, and (yes) Zito’s of this new group emerge and the team develops another stable public identity, those wounds will stay fresh, or worse yet gauzed by an impenetrable indifference, and fans will stay away in droves. Faced with this reality, why would you field anything but an inexpensive team of homegrown talent that was merely good enough, until such time as you were: a) a piece or two away from contending, and/or b) by way of a contending, charismatic team, or a new, charismatic ballpark – reaping the rewards of increased attendance?

I think Zimmerman would be a decent acquisition for the A’s organization on the field, but at that cost, it seems premature to me. It seems pretty clear to me that the goal of fielding anything resembling a "complete" team is secondary to the organization at this point to doing as well as they can while continuing to collect mlb-welfare until such time as they can move into their new digs. I find it more likely that the glaring holes will be filled with relatively low-cost, passed-their-prime veteran "gamer/mentor’ guys a la Jaha, Velarde, Thomas, Sweeney, et al. Until then, every extra cent goes to the new venue. Fortunately (for Oakland), I think they will be on the upswing before they ever get to Fremont. As I said in an earlier diary, at the pace that the new stadium is moving along, it’s increasingly likely that the A’s will be playing out their 45th anniversary season in the Coliseum.

by elhefe on Sep 12, 2008 1:08 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

This is an interesting direction

Although I don’t think low-budget necessarily means struggles in the Win/Loss column. The A’s are in a unique situation where roughly 80% of the 25 man roster will be making less then $450K a year for the next two years and Eric Chavez is the only big ticket contract to deal with. Chavez will (probably) go off the books in 2011, just when (and this is a quick & dirty roll call) Suzuki, Eveland, Smith, Barton, Buck and Devine are all eligible for their 1st round of arbitration. This group will almost certainly cost more then the $12 million the A’s pay Chavez in 2010 but that money will go a long way towards covering their increased cost.

So if the A’s were determined to go strictly with homegrown talent (not counting a possible elder statesman add-on) then their budget would stay around $50 million but their winning percentage would be tied directly to how well they scouted their current crop of guys above low-A ball.

I think the logic of your arguement falls apart when you consider that saving $20 million a year and investing that cash into the new stadium for the next 3 years wouldn’t amount to more than 20% of the estimated $300 million cost of said priject. Now, I’m not going to sit here and tell you that $60 million isn’t real money but it seems more practical to invest that money into the on-field product. It’s not like Wolff and Co. went into the new stadium deal $60 million short of the mark! Why not have a winning team ready to open the new park?

I’ve got nothing against the homegrown approach but the reality is if you look at the organizational depth chart there are some serious deficiencies at 3B, SS and maybe 2B. (I’m still not sure about CarGon as the long-term answer in CF but that’s another discussion.) These are positions that need an upgrade before the A’s can be expected to contend. You can’t necessarily wait until 2011 or 2012 to try and address these areas because there might not be anyone available at the time that’ll get the job done. I’m pushing for Zimmerman today because if he breaks out in 2009 like I think he’s eventually going to then he’ll be completely unavailable to the A’s in the future. It would be like trying to go after David Wright now and that’s simply too costly a deal to make. I think Zimmerman can be had at a somewhat reasonable price now, I’m not sure that’ll be the case a year from now.

Thanks for the reply.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 12, 2008 4:02 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

love the idea of a winning team in the new park

I’m just of the opinion that said park will most likely cost $360 million (or more) by the time it actually breaks ground.

Other than that minor point of contention, good read as always- thanks!

by elhefe on Sep 12, 2008 10:02 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Welcome

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 13, 2008 7:10 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Point number 3
it’s safe to say that the “casual fan” backlash is on. One virtue of fielding a much younger team is the potential for a modicum of roster stability that the “casual fans” feel cheated out of– but until the Giambi’s, Hudson’s, Tejada’s, and (yes) Zito’s of this new group emerge and the team develops another stable public identity, those wounds will stay fresh, or worse yet gauzed by an impenetrable indifference, and fans will stay away in droves.

Or perhaps, if “casual” fans see that the team is actually trying to make an effort at contending, instead of only wanting to contend in 2010 / 2011, they will actually show up?

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Sep 13, 2008 5:22 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Sounds good in theory

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 13, 2008 7:11 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

re

There is nothing remotely insulting in my post. I have no idea what you’re having a tizzy about. I didn’t say you didn’t do your due diligence. I wrote that you’re “failing to address the payroll issue”, and, allow myself to lmao since you just wrote that you didn’t consider it for 2011 and beyond, which is exactly when it becomes important when the new players hit arby, hence me citing Smith and Eveland (and ftr, you did not address the payroll issue beyond Zimmerman’s contract in the original comment; that’s 100% accurate, go read your post; I’m not a mind reader.)

Btw, considering your entire idea hinges around the idea of Zimmerman breaking out, maybe it would behoove your argument to present the “volumes of evidence” indicating that’s likely. Or, you know, a lick of evidence at all. All I really see is your gut feeling. Maybe you’d also like to address the volumes of evidence that players who’ve established a level of play for three full seasons don’t often make dramatic jumps in the level of their play. I’m sure Zimmerman is more likely to improve dramatically, given his age and pedigree, but it’s not close to a safe bet it will happen. You can get upset at me, but nothing you wrote reconciles that.

Anyway, calm down bro. You got your back up for no reason. Really, I feel kind of bad you took my post personally.

by 31Boots on Sep 12, 2008 2:13 PM PDT to parent up   1 recs

I understand you can't read minds but I assumed you could read

I don’t see how anyone can do any serious (keyword, I used it last time as well) number crunching on the 2011 roster because there are simply too many questions around who will actually be on the roster. If we assume that Buck, Barton, Suzuki, Eveland, Smith, Devine and Sweeney are all still on the roster and none of them have received long-term deals from the A’s then they’d all be in the 1st year of arbitration. We’re lacking two crucial years of performance data that would be absolutely critical in determining what kind of financial reward they’d be looking at. Is Devine the closer? Are Buck and Barton starters?

There are other questions as well. Cust would be entering his final year of arbitration… but when was the last time Beane let that happen? Cust will either get a contract buying out some of his arby years or he’ll get traded. Then again, maybe Duke sets a precident by playing 1 more year and then walking out the door. It’s possible the A’s offer him arbitration and let the chips fall where they may because injury has kept Duke’s arby settlements low. What about giving him an extension this winter that covers 2009 through 2011? That’s a plausible scenario. There are a lot of questions here that no one has the answers to at this time.

Your mistake is thinking that all these questions have to be answered before the A’s could make a play for Zimmerman or any other “big ticket” player for that matter.

Why can’t the A’s make a trade for Zimmerman and then build the 2011 and beyond rosters around him, as if he was the cornerstone of what the A’s were trying to build. Like the idea or not, trading for Zimmerman makes him a franchise cornerstone and that is something the A’s don’t have right now. Boots… you gotta start somewhere and the sooner you set the foundation the quicker you can build.

As for the rest of your poorly conceived post, do you really need me to provide you with evidence that 23 year old baseball players who stay healthy tend to get better as they get older? Would a list of names suffice? This is one of those things that if you pay any attention to baseball you tend to be a witness to the phenomenon. For some reason I’ve got the Mets on the brain but Carlos Beltran, Jose Reyes, David Wright, Carlos Delgado, Billy Wagner, John Maine, Johan Santana, Moises Alou and Pedro Martinez are all examples of baseball players who got better as they got older.

Would you like me to look at another team for more examples?

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 12, 2008 4:32 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

re

No point in simply repeating ourselves endlessly, but, you don’t have to do any serious number crunching to realize that the A’s payroll is going to go up significantly in 2011 when the players hit arbitration. What is difficult about that? Having ready replacements will mitigate the increase. What is difficult about that?

And, my literate friend, I don’t recall ever disputing that young players tend to improve. I think (think) my point was that it’s too big of a gamble for the A’s to trade five top notch prospects for this particular player, who has not shown improvement (zero) over a quite significant stretch of time.

by 31Boots on Sep 12, 2008 5:01 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Bumping the payroll

Just last year the A’s spent $79 million on payroll. Next year I’m projecting a $39 million payroll. Are you suggesting that there’s a ceiling lower then $79 million? There is no reason to believe that when 2011 rolls around Beane won’t have access to the same funds he had last year.

Because I did ask myself this question. I tried to figure out if the A’s could afford Zimmerman and pay Teixeira $23 million a year on an $80 million budget in 2011, especially with all the arby calls coming into play. I don’t have an answer to that one.

As for the improvement issue, I’m predicting Zimmerman’s OPS will be higher then his 2007 numbers when this season is over.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 12, 2008 5:11 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Asides from age,

VORP doesn’t take into account a position player’s D, and doesn’t separate a pitcher’s pitching from his team’s D.

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by rfloh on Sep 11, 2008 9:55 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

VORP is a counting stat and it's already been established that Zimmerman missed time this year

That’s not exactly a fair comparison unless you’re claiming that injury is something that’s going to be a problem in the future, a potentially fair argument but not one you’re making.

by thejd44 on Sep 11, 2008 10:22 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

re

Actually that’s exactly why I mentioned his production was average by rate stats as well. I see how it reads cheap though, should have been clearer.

by 31Boots on Sep 12, 2008 1:48 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

This is your better, cheaper alternative to Beltre?

First of all, not even sure its better,

EQA 2006-2008
Zimmerman: .282, .273, .266
Beltre: .275, .282, .281

UZR 2003-2007: Runs saved per 150 games
Zimmerman: +2
Beltre +12

Yes, Zimmerman certainly has potential and he’s nearing his prime while Beltre is probably on the other side of his, but Beltre’s isn’t the type of skillset to decline that quickly I feel. They’ve been very similar players the past 3 years, Beltre arguably being better when you factor in what appears to be superior D. Also not too fond of young guys with shoulder problems.

And if this is your proposal, he’s certainly not cheaper. You’re going to pay him 30 mil at least over the next 4 years (Assuming there’s like a 4 million buyout attached to his 2013 option). Beltre would likely command something like a 3 year 40 million deal (at the high end) and he wouldn’t need to sign him until after 09 (I don’t think adding Zimmerman to the 09 team is pushing the A’s to the playoffs so his 09 value isn’t all that useful).

The value you give up trading away Mr. Doe/Mazzaro/Carter/Rodriguez/Cardenas (that’s a ridiculously large package), like 30 seasons worth of players who very likely may be MLB caliber for 3-4 seasons of Zimmerman? There’s no way that group of players + Beltre is worth less than Zimmerman.

I know PECOTA might disagree with that sentiment, but most of that MORP value is based on Zim’s defense being 2 wins greater than Beltre’s, which most other metrics seems to think ain’t true.

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by iamawesomer on Sep 11, 2008 12:25 AM PDT   1 recs

Fair enough, although you drastically underestimate Beltre on the free market

Beltre is currently making $12 million a year and will make that amount again in 2009. He turns 30 next April, so realistically you’re talking he’s 31 when he starts his next contract. You honestly think Beltre, who will argueably be the best FA 3B on the 2010 market, is only going to get a $1 million annual raise? And only 3 years? I don’t think you thought that contract through.

And it’s also your belief that a 30 year old Beltre will continue to out-produce a 24 year old Zimmerman as the years progress? Very interesting if highly unlikely.

Oh, Zimmerman’s shoulder is healthy. Young guys tend to recover from minor injuries.

Furthermore, the defensive stats I have say Zimmerman was a much better defender last year (I don’t have any data for 2008) to the tune of 14 runs saved. According to THT’s RZR Beltre was a better defender in 2006 but Zimmerman ranked higher in ‘07 and Beltre has a slight edge this year. Any way you cut it, Zimmerman’s youth means he’s more likely to improve or at least maintain his defensive ability over the next 5 years.

You complain/worry about the package. It’s a smaller package then the one the A’s got for Haren! Furthermore, that’s the absolute high end of what it could cost. The guy I talked to at Fedarl Baseball thought Mr. Doe/Mazzaro/Barton might get a deal done… which I still think is a little low but would be more then willing to go with if that’s what the Nationals wanted!

And the 30 seasons stuff… you think every A’s prospect is going to hit? A year ago I very much doubt you were singing the praises of Mazzaro. You may have been proclaiming the soon-to-be greatness of Andrew Bailey, but I’m willing to guess you weren’t thinking such warm and fuzzy thoughts about Mazzaro. I like all these guys in the A’s organization (except for Mr. Doe, he’s a jerk) but they are prospects, not proven big league ballplayers. Mazzaro’s the only one who’s had any real success above A-ball so a lot can still go wrong with these guys. Sometimes you have to trade potential for actual ability.

I think this is one of those times.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 11, 2008 1:04 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Doe/Street, Mazzaro, Barton

is a DONE deal in my book. Throwing in another decent arm like Lansford, or if you’re frisky, Outman, would probably be ok in my book. However, I think Cardenas is being wayyy undervalued in the above proposals. Here’s a question…Who’s the better prospect for the A’s: Cardenas or Carter? Cardenas or Mazzaro?

I’d say Cardenas is the best, or at least, most important (to the A’s) of the three.

by ohmangoAs on Sep 11, 2008 1:51 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

That's an interesting discussion point

I rate Carter over Cardenas, because when I look at Cardenas I can’t help but ask “Where’s the power?” I trust the scouts enough that I believe them when they say it’s there but he’s had two full seasons and he hasn’t shown it. And if I’m going to trust the scouts when they say the power is there then I have to believe them when they say he doesn’t have the range for SS.

It’s tougher for me to rate Cardenas vs. Mazzaro. The way I see it, the one things the A’s have in spades is pitching. They have it at the big league level and it filters all through the minor leagues. That makes a guy like Mazzaro, a guy who had a great year but isn’t at the top of the importance list, expendable.

Mr. Doe/Mazzaro/Barton should be a done deal with every A’s fan. Which is why I don’t think it’ll actually fly, because Bowden is being paid to be a Nationals fan!

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 11, 2008 6:53 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Haren was signed to a ridiculously low contract beforehand

like 16 mil over 3 years. Zimmerman is signed to no such deal and will get expensive in arby. Unless you can have a deal worked out with him before a trade (can that happen, is that tampering? I know teams have extension windows and such like with Johan Santana but this doesn’t seem the same thing). Haren is just also a much more valuable player than Zimmerman so he’s going to cost a bigger bundle..

Obviously I don’t think all the prospects will pan out. the 30 years is just 30 possible years. That being said I think Cardenas is a stud though, as is Carter. So that’s 12 very likely years that they will be major leaguers (they’re both going to end up likely top 50 prospects next time around) the arms I’m not nearly as concerned about.

The defensive data for 2008 says Beltre is tops at 3rd and by a good margin.

Also I agree with the guy below that says Cardenas is being way undervalued. You just don’t find middle infield bats on the market like you do corner infield ones.

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by iamawesomer on Sep 11, 2008 2:16 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I guess its the guy above me then

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by iamawesomer on Sep 11, 2008 2:24 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Where you getting your 2008 Runs Saved data?

I’d like to look at because THT’s RZR doesn’t include Runs Saved.

Yes, Haren is more valuable than Zimmerman. Haren is at his peak while Zimmerman has yet to reach his. The A’s traded Haren while he was/is at his peak ability and I have to believe that Bowden will charge the A’s for the opportunity to experience Zimmerman’s peak years.

Look at it this way.

Zimmerman’s floor is that of a league average hitter who can play an above average 3B. That’s his floor and he’s already proven at the big league level that he can do better then that. He’s proven that he can be a good big league hitter with a gold glove caliber glove at 3B and he’s still 2-3 years away from hitting his peak. That raises the price on the tag.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Sep 11, 2008 7:14 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

A couple places I go for D data

There’s John Dewan’s +/- at Bill James Online (its like $3 a month for the site its worth it to me just for the fielding bible data but there’s other stuff)

Also use Dial’s D part of Offense + Defense which he posts every so often at Baseball Think Factory.

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by iamawesomer on Sep 11, 2008 10:47 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Dial had Ty Wigginton as a better all-round 3B than Zimmerman this year

We’d better be buying low, and not buying a sinking ship.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Sep 11, 2008 10:54 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

duh

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Sep 11, 2008 12:26 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I was trying to figure out when Beltre became such a hot commodity again

Looking at his numbers in Seattle, I’m still struggling with the notion that all that great. In four years with Seattle, his OPS+ has been 93, 105, 112, and 111. Very mehverage numbers for a 3B. Yes, he has a good glove, but offensively, he’s Eric Chavez—and I mean the JV version that played from 2005-2007 (108, 105, 102). Beltre’s highest OBP as a Mariner, posted this year, is .329.

Zimmerman’s numbers are about the same, too, although you have to wonder how much playing for the Nationals has to do with that. Beltre’s actually had some offensive help as a Mariner.

Anyway, I don’t have any better ideas, so I’ll shut up now.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Sep 11, 2008 1:29 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't know that he's a "hot commodity"

What he is, is probably fairly cheap to obtain, because he has a burdensome contract. He’s low-risk because the A’s don’t have to give up that much for him, and the reward is potentially high.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Sep 11, 2008 4:15 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The reward is potentially high

only if you’re banking on another contract year performance. Which would be fine if we were talking about the A’s being contenders in 2009, except we aren’t. The only reason a trade for Beltre makes sense is if you want the A’s to sign him to an extension. Beltre has spent his entire Mariners’ career (to date) proving that you’ll end up disappointed.

Even then, trading for Beltre makes little since. If you sign the guy as a FA you lose a draft pick, probably a 2nd rounder based on the way the A’s look heading into 2009. It’s going to take more then that equivalent value to trade for him even if the Mariners are looking at ma