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I've lost the will to cheer

I'm out of ways to describe how terrible the A's offense is. Let me sum up: The A's received a hit from Crosby, Gonzalez, and Thomas today, and received three walks. That's the offense they put up to support their brand-new pitcher on the mound, who certainly deserved better than he got tonight.
 
With the exception of the first inning, where he let a two-out rally and a bomb leave him down 3-0, Gio settled in nicely and pitched a gem the rest of the way, pitching into the seventh, and looking good doing it. Unfortunately, thanks to the lack of A's hitters, Casilla, not Ziegler, replaced him, so the one batter he left on base eventually scored, taking him from a 3 run outing to 4. His line finished 6+ IP, 4 H, 4 ER, 2BB, 4K. I thought he pitched better than the numbers indicated, and he may have earned a win for a different team in baseball tonight.
 
Unfortunately, he made his major league debut for the 2008 Oakland A's, and their offense is painful. I'm surprised that pitchers just don't burst into tears having to take the mound for this team. After all, what is the point of pitching well? What is the difference between losing 5-1 and losing 2-1? How much pressure do you want to put on a young pitcher when he knows he can't give up more than a run or he will lose?
 
Despite doing their best to be no-hit tonight, the A's offense finally got on the board in the sixth with their first hit of the game, a solo homerun by Bobby Crosby. In the very next inning, they loaded the bases with no one out (in horrifying shades of last night), and failed to score. Yet again. You would think that even by accident that the A's could have scored in a least one of those situations. But when you score only 17 runs on your nine game losing streak, there isn't a lot of room for lucky and good things to happen to your team.
 
I'm tired of this. I would have rather lost the game tonight 10-9 than have to sit through inning after inning of scoreless baseball. I'm over pitching duels. I want some offense!
 
Duchscherer takes the mound tomorrow, trying to avoid an A's 10 game losing streak, while the rest of us do our best to cheer for maybe the three players left that we want to actually keep in our offense. And fun fact of the day, if you need more: Cust has now struck out 53 times in his last 101 ABs.
 
Same game, same time tomorrow. Hopefully a different outcome.

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I am :(

"With 16-year-old Dominican righty Michel Inoa in tow, Gio Gonzalez improving at Triple-A and lefty Brett Anderson carving up Double-Abatters along with Simmons and Trevor Cahill, Oakland’s pitching depthis officially the envy of baseball." - BaseballAmerica.com

by Syphon on Aug 6, 2008 6:33 PM PDT   0 recs

we're paying some dues

and many here are not used to it. Yeah, this sucks… you find out how much of a fan you are when you’re team goes through a stretch like this

That seventh inning when the A’s loaded ‘em up and failed to score was absolutely mizzerabull

by Brian in 317 on Aug 6, 2008 6:34 PM PDT   0 recs

The seventh inning

was an example of a team that has completely given up. Every game since the Blanton trade has been an example. I was pleading to my TV tonight for just a glimpse of effort from the A’s players, to no avail of course.

by somebodyelse on Aug 6, 2008 8:08 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

.......

Where do people come up with this garbage?

Jack Hannahan hit into a double play because he wanted to?

Should he have stood around at home plate snapping his bat in half to demonstrate “effort” instead of trying to beat it out?

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Aug 6, 2008 8:17 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I think that is his first GIDP all year right

For all his faults he has been incredible at not hitting into one until now. The only other DP was a liner or a fly ball DP.

I hate unproductive outs and the A's are producing them at record production

by Trainman on Aug 6, 2008 8:23 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I wouldn't go that far

And stop putting words in my post. I never said Hannamontanahan wanted to do poorly, I noted a lack of effort on this team offensively as of late. I feel like I’m watching spring training games, whereas their focus is on not getting injured more than winning. That’s where people get this garbage.

by somebodyelse on Aug 6, 2008 8:37 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You "feel like" you're watching spring training games

Therefore, the team has given up.

I don’t even want to go to the effort of figuring out how many links are missing in that logical chain.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Aug 6, 2008 8:46 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You are great at

attacking the way an opinion is worded without actually providing a counterpoint. Your comments are nothing but meaningless insults. I’m done with this.

by somebodyelse on Aug 6, 2008 8:53 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

2-17 sure is indicative of a team whose effort is in question.

The RiverCats could do better than that against a big league schedule.

That said, “effort” might not be the best word for it. They can be trying very hard, but if they’re bewildered, demoralized, and lacking confidence, their effort is going to be extremely inefficient. Guys can get doubled off second like a Little Leaguer in environments like that.

It isn’t exactly “not trying.” “Not caring” might be a bettter term. And who can blame them, really? Why should they care?

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 6, 2008 9:15 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

How about "not good at hitting"

That’s the biggest problem.

by mikev on Aug 6, 2008 9:16 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No, it's not really. It's just a very bad offense that is even worse than usual...

...combined with some pitching that has begun to falter.

They’re in a really bad rut and you can’t even say they don’t care. They’re just not a good team now. It has nothing to do with caring or not.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 6, 2008 9:16 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Perhaps, but

I would hope folks would acknowledge that the grind of a 162 games, exacerbated by the sudden loss of guys you thought (rightly or wrongly) gave you your best chance at winning, then topped off with a brutal losing streak when nothing worked, would have a negative effect on pretty much any human being. Particularly ones who’d spent most of their lives winning at everything.

It’s silly to claim anyone’s not trying; it seems obvious, to me, that anyone would be demoralized. Which doesn’t help win ballgames, and IMHO surely can help lose them.

They want to steal the land papers which is why they have tried to break in. But they had to give up after being bitten by Chhotu.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Aug 6, 2008 9:21 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I just don't get how you look at a group of competitive athletes

and suggest they probably don’t care. Yes they’re demoralized, and yes their confidence is shot, but they don’t care? You think it’s bothering you a lot but them not at all? If anything, I’d consider the possibility that some of their recent struggles come from pressing and trying to do too much – which is actually evidence of caring.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Aug 6, 2008 9:18 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Their management told them they weren't good enough to win.

I don’t care how professional or competitive you are, being told you’re not good enough by your employer is going to affect your performance. It isn’t really intended as a slight against the players.

I can’t even find the word for it—”not caring” isn’t it, either. But this recent spate of suck is about more than just not being talented.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 6, 2008 9:21 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It sounds like "demoralized" is the word,

and I agree they are demoralized. It’s very different from not trying or not caring, but is a problem.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Aug 6, 2008 9:31 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The ability to perform can be crippling even when you're trying your hardest

In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!

by DMOAS on Aug 6, 2008 9:32 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

This sort of thing

happened to the Mariners a couple years ago. We were trailing them by a couple games leading up to the trade deadline and we went out and traded for someone (I can’t remember the exact year/player right now). Seattle didn’t do anything and many players on their team, including team leader at the time Brett Boone, questioned management’s desire to win because they didn’t go out and get that player to put them over the top. They then proceeded to fade fast and we won the division.

"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin

by Helloooo 1st on Aug 7, 2008 1:31 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Again, agreed

I was on a terrible HS Basketball team. We came out early in the season optimistic, but when it became apparent that we sucked, we assumed that identity. It became who we were. The intensity to win was just not important. I know, the MLB is not HS basketball, but I read the body language and facial expressions of the latter half 2008 A’s as a disappointed group who have almost found the cellar and believe it is where they are destined for this season. I love the A’s, believe it or not, and didn’t mean to cause such angry responses. I just think the players have given up on having a winning season.

by somebodyelse on Aug 6, 2008 9:34 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Sure, but they're also professionals.

This is their job. Performing this year (or not performing, as the case may be) could very well make (or cost) them a great deal of money.

Trust me, these guys have reasons to be motivated. Millions of them.

by mikev on Aug 6, 2008 9:41 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I've had this experience with jobs

and couldn’t have cared less about the money when the environment is like that. Actually, I did care about the money, but only to the extent that I made sure to a) keep my head down; and b) hang on and be miserable because severance would be better than quitting.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 6, 2008 9:44 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

So have I.

But, unless you’re talking about doing something on the professional athlete level, it’s not (potentially) millions of dollars at stake.

by mikev on Aug 6, 2008 10:40 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

T a large extent

I think you are right. But not all players, especially AAA guys, which compose a large part of our team this season, think like businessmen. Even Duke had some veiled unkind statements about where he thinks this team is expected to go given the recent mgmt moves.

by somebodyelse on Aug 6, 2008 9:52 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

All I know is this ...

Dropping names is kinda weak, but for the sake of this discussion … I had a long talk with Troy Neel one night at a dinner party … his words to me when discussing this very subject (whether or not players are apt to “mail in” games when the season is over, for all intents and purposes) were, “Yes, if you’re asking me if some players quit, absolutely. They normally don’t hang around the game much longer, but it’s true.” When I asked if it was possible that some fans “cared” more than some players, he laughed, and said, “I guarantee you some fans care more than some players. There are a bunch of guys who just look forward to their paycheck (especially when the season’s hopeless) and know they won’t play for their team much longer. Passionate fans are more invested.”
Now, I know the conversation didn’t go exactly like that - it was about 10 years ago now, but that’s pretty close.
In my opinion, I think players care most of the time, but I don’t think for a second, that at times like this - with the season “over” and in the midst of a horrible streak—that they don’t take games off in many ways. No way the A’s effort right now is as great as it was a month ago. No way.

I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.

by Vacafan on Aug 6, 2008 10:47 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh, I most definitely agree with that

And I wouldn’t sit here and claim there may not be a few people on the team mailing it in as we speak.

However, the impression I’m getting is that some people think the majority of the team is doing that and I just don’t believe it.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 6, 2008 10:55 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The majority of the team? No.

Enough of them? Possibly.

In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!

by DMOAS on Aug 6, 2008 11:00 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

And another thing to remember

is that most posters who believe that some or many of the A’s have “quit” simply mean they think that the mental preparation and effort isn’t there any longer. Very, very few people (if any) would claim that individuals don’t try and get a hit or whatever … and most people who are critical of this view realize that isn’t what most are implying, either. But because the naysayers can’t fathom for a minute that their “professionals” in green and gold would ever, ever, ever consider taking a night off mentally, they’ll just continue to tell you how stupid you are for believing it.

I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.

by Vacafan on Aug 6, 2008 11:29 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

+1

Again, my stance, but with much better eloquence.

by somebodyelse on Aug 6, 2008 11:55 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

This IS the RiverCats

... essentially.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Aug 6, 2008 9:28 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

"The seventh inning was an example of a team that has completely given up."

Which part, then? The loading the bases part? The failing to get a run part? Toronto then getting a couple more runs in their half?

If they’d completely given up, you’d be seeing people not even bothering to try to get on base. It’s not like Ellis and Hannahan tried to waste the start they had to the inning.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 6, 2008 8:47 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Didn't you feel like it was a miracle

that the bases got loaded in the first place? I did. How is that absurd?

by somebodyelse on Aug 6, 2008 8:44 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

True - they hadn't accomplished that

for weeks days oh wait they did it the day before. (With equally terrific results.)

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Aug 6, 2008 8:59 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I missed that game, but

I would have thought it a miracle then, too, with equally terrific results.

by somebodyelse on Aug 6, 2008 9:03 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I think of it more as...

...an example of Emil Brown playing like an idiot.

by rageon on Aug 7, 2008 6:59 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Wake me when it's over.

I’ve followed the A’s for 40 years, and I can’t remember a more feckless stretch of baseball as we’ve seen since the break. (But then, I can’t remember where I put my car keys when I came home.)

by gregorymark on Aug 6, 2008 6:40 PM PDT   0 recs

Rebuilding

I just laugh and turn off the T.V.

Buy Who Billy Drafts Then Sell Them When They Get Traded!

by Triple Eh's on Aug 6, 2008 6:42 PM PDT   0 recs

The worst A's offense ever.

The 30+ years I have been a A’s fan this is the worst offense team ever. Face it besides Carlos there is no future allstar in the lineup. 1 future hall of famer on his downside. 2 good young players in suzuki and sweeney. Then you have ellis and crosby who are average hitters. Barton would be in AAA on any other team. Cust would be a Ph off the bench. Hannahan a utility player. That is one lame lineup. Our bench has nothing not even a decent pinch hitter or a platoon player. Why patterson was sent down is beyond me. They never gave him a chance and he couyld be the spark plug needed. I am not going to waste my money paying to see some players with no heart and guts on a abaseball field.

by Arcman on Aug 6, 2008 6:43 PM PDT   0 recs

a couple years away

just need to realize that the A’s arent going to be very good until then. Sorry but thats just the reality of it all. Enjoy what you can for what it worth for know.

Buy Who Billy Drafts Then Sell Them When They Get Traded!

by Triple Eh's on Aug 6, 2008 6:44 PM PDT   0 recs

You're undoubtedly correct....

...and we should consider ourselves fortunate that the A’s were as competitive as they were in the first half.

by gregorymark on Aug 6, 2008 7:03 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Street excuses

Forgot to add that pansy excuse for Street last night. He said I will try to sleep and forget about the lost and wake up tomorrow ready to pitch. He could care less. the pretty boy is sucking and doesn’t care.

by Arcman on Aug 6, 2008 6:45 PM PDT   0 recs

No, he's doing what players have to do, especially pitchers.

If you have a bad game, you have to forget about it before you pitch again.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 6, 2008 6:46 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

CIA finally perfected it's mind-reading drugs, did it?

Can you hook me up with your supplier? I figure it would be pretty useful to have lying around.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Aug 6, 2008 6:47 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

its

not it’s

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Aug 6, 2008 6:48 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I was just thinking that!

"God doesn't pay attention to your cute little hypotheticals." -- Jeff from LL

by oblique on Aug 6, 2008 7:08 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Thats the line

every closer gives following a blown save/loss. It’s the mentality you need in order to succeed.

"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin

by Helloooo 1st on Aug 7, 2008 1:34 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Cust wasn't the problem here...

His at-bat in the 7th inning was terrific—he clawed his way from down in the count and worked a walk, which was (theoretically) huge because it moved Thomas to third, i.e. into scoring position (for him). In fact, since it more or less moved TWO runners into scoring position with none out, it was about as good a walk as a walk can be.

It’s not his fault that Ellis proceeded to have an abysmal at-bat (taking two pretty obvious strikes, then flailing at a ball, barely making contact, and ending up in a force at home) and Hannahan then rolled over on a ball and hit into a double play.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Aug 6, 2008 6:46 PM PDT   1 recs

Cust

I like Cust. Just not on our team.

Buy Who Billy Drafts Then Sell Them When They Get Traded!

by Triple Eh's on Aug 6, 2008 6:51 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I like him on our team -

just not with these supporting eight.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Aug 6, 2008 6:52 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

OK

I like him on our team this year and next, but not the following.

Buy Who Billy Drafts Then Sell Them When They Get Traded!

by Triple Eh's on Aug 6, 2008 7:13 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Great Performance

Not what I expected from a strike out pitcher. I thought he would bring it harder. Whatever works.

Buy Who Billy Drafts Then Sell Them When They Get Traded!

by Triple Eh's on Aug 6, 2008 6:59 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Ellis

Not only did he take two obvious strikes, he paid more mind to rolling his eyes at the umpire about them than making the adjustment. The swing at the third one looked like an angry “oh, I bet you’re going to call that a strike too, huh?”

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 6, 2008 9:18 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

That was a horrible at bat

OK, he takes strike 1 on the outside. Borderline. The pitcher decides to repeat and he looks at it. How about thinking like the pitcher and taking the ball to right field.

Ellis is very susceptible to pitches on the outer half. You will notice this in that seems to be his weakest spot (cold Zone). The pitcher was exploiting that. Then on the third pitch away he pulls it to SS and grounds out. He would have still had an RBI but for Frank running but that is basically a very shitty at bat IMO.

I hate unproductive outs and the A's are producing them at record production

by Trainman on Aug 6, 2008 9:43 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

And as critical of Hannahan as I have been

I cannot fault his at bat because;

1) He did swing at the first pitch (fouled it back but it was drivable) and;

2) He had not grounded into a DP all year as far as I know.

Yes, he made 2 outs but at least he tried to do something unlike the previous Ellis at bat.

I hate unproductive outs and the A's are producing them at record production

by Trainman on Aug 6, 2008 9:46 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I actually agree with you PT

In the game thread I ripped Ellis pretty good for that at-bat. (To the chagrin of many other posters, who insisted the first two strikes were horrible calls.)
And, I’ll agree that Jack Cust did a good job working a walk there.
But has there ever been a player in the history of the game that get s more credit for working a walk?? On-base-percentage should never, ever be considered on par with slugging pct. That’s why I don’t always drink the OPS Kool-Aid. In Little League, when you yell, “A hit’s as good as a walk!”, it’s because you know the kid can’t hit, and you don’t want him to feel bad for sucking. A walk is rarely ever as good as a hit.

I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.

by Vacafan on Aug 6, 2008 10:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I dunno how accurate MLB.com's Gameday is but it shows...

...the first pitch was off the plate outside, the second was borderline on the corner, and the one Ellis swung at was farther away than the first.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 6, 2008 11:10 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Even more irritating that getting praised for walking is getting praise for making an out.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 7, 2008 12:47 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You and Henry Chadwick would get along rather well

since both of you are apparently of the belief that stats should reflect moral judgments about players rather than evaluations of whether they’re helping their team win or not.

If that’s your criterion, then frankly you can use whatever stat you want, because I just don’t give a crap. If you’re talking about helping teams win baseball games, there is not the slightest shadow of a doubt that OBP is the most important basic stat in baseball.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Aug 7, 2008 10:14 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

correct: a walk is *not* as good as a hit

But that isn’t the point: the point is what to do on any given pitch to decrease the odds of avoiding making an out (and, yes, absolutely: scoring runs in the aggregate depends on SLG [and, heck, AVG to some degree], which necessitates occasionally doing more than merely “avoiding making an out”).

Earning a walk is definitely a skill (though its value is more in the “not-negative” sense of having avoided making an out), and Cust is really in the 99th percentile of that skillset.

There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 7, 2008 10:42 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

whoops: *increase* the odds of avoiding making an out

There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 7, 2008 10:42 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

+1

And, what’s more, Cust’s K looking to end the game was totally without the meaning implicitly ascribed to it by bbg at the end of her wrapup (and by the trollish reactions on the game thread). In that situation, an out is an out is an out - and a BB (forcing the reliever to throw more pitches, thereby exposing his repertoire for the rest of the A’s “hitters” and potentially tiring and frustrating the pitcher) in that situation is possibly worth more than a HR (yes, I know, not according to game outcome-probability charts). Cust’s main job there is to not make an out - and taking borderline pitches, especially for Cust, gave a greater probability of not doing so.

Now, if Cust himself had been the possible tying/winning run, it’s a different story …

There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 7, 2008 10:36 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I noticed this earlier.

Our five highest paid players in order:

Chavy
Ellis
Crosby
Street
Embree

HIndsight is always 20/20 on stuff like this, so thats why I’m not making any assertions about it. But dang…

What about Barry?
"Barry who?" Forst said, and I felt like I was in the middle of a knock-knock joke.

by KMoAsFan on Aug 6, 2008 6:47 PM PDT   0 recs

The truth is.

Lew Wolf cant bankroll this team. He is doing what he thinks may help him financialy win in the future. 1. load up on you talent. 2. hope for a new stadium. 3 Hope the talent is good enough to fill the new stadium.

Buy Who Billy Drafts Then Sell Them When They Get Traded!

by Triple Eh's on Aug 6, 2008 6:48 PM PDT   0 recs

Strikeouts per AB are pretty useless wrt Cust

and most players really. Strikeouts per PA are much better indicators.

Can't get enough of the Oakland A's? Visit Oaktown Awesomer's

by iamawesomer on Aug 6, 2008 6:50 PM PDT   0 recs

20 walks in that span....

52 walks in 123 PA is horrid.

Bring back Hammer.

by OaktownPower on Aug 6, 2008 6:52 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It's about 40%

or, about what Cust normally does.

Slightly worse, but well within normal variation for him.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Aug 6, 2008 6:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

This number gets my goat more about Cust.

He hits .111 with two strikes.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 6, 2008 9:24 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs