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Lew's first four years are a failure, imo.

This is the fourth year of Lew Wolff’s tenure as owner and managing partner of the A’s.  It’s pretty clear that the results are bad, very bad.  Lew inherited a franchise that was performing well on the field.  The previous four years showed two first place finishes, and two second place finishes—two 100+ game winning seasons, a 96 and 91 win season.  And of course the setting of a major league record for winning streaks, at 21 games.  Attendance had grown to 27,000+ per game, not great but improving.  Oakland was a little less than average in the major leagues—19th out of 31 teams.  Playoff results had been disappointing, and there had been fan disappointment with the loss of some high performing and loved players—Giambi and Tejada for example.  But in my view, and I believe many fans at the time, we were excited about the teams prospects.

 

 

Star-divide

And in fact, the team continued to win in the first two seasons of Lew’s reign, as the momentum on the field continued from the cadre of players in place—a second place finish, first place finish, and an advancement to the American League playoffs.  Unfortunately in Lew’s first year attendance began to slip, and has continued to slip each year.  In 2005 where the A’s finished 2nd behind the A’s, just as in 2004, attendance fell 4.2%--disturbing since the team had such a similar year as the one before.  Then in 2006 the A’s had a fantastic year, but attendance again slipped, this time 6.3%--even more disturbing.  Results on the field have slipped in 2007 and 2008, and attendance has continued to drop—running 10.4% behind last year so far this season.  If the current attendance rate holds even for the remainder of this year, which it won’t, attendance will have slipped an incredible 21.8%. 

 

Clearly on the field performance has a lot to do with this slippage, and that can’t be put at the feet of the owner.  But attendance began to slip immediately as Lew came in, even as the team was performing well, and in fact, performance climbing to an exciting trip to the League playoffs in 2006.  My view is that Lew has been a major cause of this attendance slippage.  One of his earliest and strongest themes upon coming to the A’s was that the A’s had to have a new ballpark.  He even brought in the Commissioner of Baseball, and his college frat bro, to emphasize how important this was for the A’s.  Bud Selig basically  said the A’s could not survive without a new ballpark.  Lew did say that Oakland was his first choice, but the A’s fans are not total idiots, and knew that while Oakland was a possibility, the odds against that happening had to be at 3 to 1 or worse given the financial straits of the city of Oakland and the lukewarm attitude to the A’s by Mayor Jerry Brown and most of the politicians--at least that was my guess.

The Oakland scenario of course did not play out, and in November of 2006 Lew announced that the A’s were moving to Fremont.  He of course hoped that current A’s fans would drive 30 miles down the car packed 880, or take Bart—wait, not Bart, to see their beloved A’s.  In my opinion, this was an incredibly reckless decision.  The availability of the new stadium date was a little up in the error, but for purposes of discussion let’s assume a target date of 2011.  That meant that Lew announced the move of his team 5 years in advance of the move!!  What in the world did he think was going to happen to the fan base?  Obviously some fans would begin to drop out.  And just as obviously new fans living, let’s say, north of the Coliseum would have second thoughts about becoming A’s fans.  Then again, most A’s fans new when Lew came in before the 2005 season that it would play out with a move.  So in reality, current fans and potential new fans knew from before the beginning of the ’05 season until the projected 2011 season that the team would be in Fremont.  So actually the fan base and potential fan base has been in limbo for 7 years!!  But of course there could be slippage on the move in date—and the current A’s website says "Estimated to open sometime before the 2013 season, Cisco Field", so maybe there is at least one more year to add to all of those estimates.

So how about the new fans from Fremont and San Jose?  It was certainly not realist to think they would buy tickets in Oakland prior to the move.

But as I wrote in a January diary, it’s more than possible that the Fremont stadium will never open.  And that possibility came out in some of Lew’s recent comments—thanks to New A’s Ballpark for identifying the following stories and links

But where that future will take place remains in as much question as ever, especially after managing partner Lew Wolff told Bay Area News Group he's unsure if the team's attempt to build a new state-of-the-art ballpark in Fremont will succeed.

"I don't know. I honestly don't," Wolff said Wednesday when asked if Cisco Field will come to fruition. "But say it doesn't. We're still under a lot of pressure to get a park that is our own. That isn't going to go away. So my hope is that we'll find a way to make it happen. It has not been as easy as I thought it would be."

One day after these comments Lew put a more positive spin on them,  

A day after Oakland A's owner Lew Wolff publicly stated he wasn't sure if he would succeed in building a new baseball stadium in Fremont, he told the Mercury News that he's frustrated at the lingering pace, but ultimately thinks "Ballpark Village" will rise in the Bay Area's fourth largest city.

Wolff is troubled about the length of time it's taking to satisfy major property owners near the proposed 32,000-seat Cisco Field and to complete an environmental review.

"I still think it's going to happen," Wolff, a major South Bay developer, said today from his office in Los Angeles. "Otherwise I wouldn't be doing this."

But clearly the possibility of the deal falling through is on his mind.

While Lew talks mainly about the delays with the Environmental Impact studies, I continue to think the main problem will be that the project will not make sense because of its dependence on both residential and commercial real estate.  I said then,

The 2007 debacle with subprime mortages and plummeting housing prices will kill the new ballpark in Fremont.  The A's will have to rethink their planned move, and likely remain in Oakland………But the dramatic changes in our economy are causing Lou Wolff and his investors to rethink this project.  It would not be in their interests to let this out to the news media.  But Lou and his investors are pretty savvy investors, and they are not about to invest huge dollars into a project that depends upon new homes and a thriving economy.  There is no need for them to announce today that the project is dead.  They don't have to put their money down today.  But no one would invest in this project today.  So you will see this drama play out, Fremot and the other players going through the motions, but this project doesn't make sense now, and when the time comes for everyone to pony up--they will not. 

I basically think the same today.  There is some chance of a "bear market" housing rally, imo, in the next 12 to 18 months, but demographic trends are very negative.  I would guess there is an 80% chance the management group pulls out of the deal.  And a 20% chance they read the economy differently and move ahead—and imho it would turn into a financial disaster.

The problem for Lew, the A’s, and for hardcore A’s fans is that this strategy will have long term negative impact on the franchise.  This huge loss of attendance is a major problem financially, and will impact decision making in the business.  And the momentum right now is going the wrong way.  I believe attendance will continue to fall this year and next.  And a combination of ego and uncertainty on the part of Lew and his partners will prevent them from making a quick decision and turning this situation around.  I wouldn’t be surprised to see this linger on into 2010, when reality just forces a decision to stay in Oakland.  But attendance and the franchise will have suffered greatly by then.

So I would have to give Lew a failing grade for his performance in his first four baseball years, the 2005-2008 seasons.  He made, or accepted, an assumption that the most important objective of the franchise was a new ballpark—I don’t think that was true.  Since he accepted that assumption, he chose a very high risk strategy which clearly was going to tell the fans the team was moving 5-7 years before the move date—incredibly demoralizing to fans. I can’t totally blame him for this one, but he clearly misread the economic environment when he pulled the trigger on the move to Fremont.  But I can blame him for this one, he didn’t, doesn’t, have a fallback strategy if his plan failed.  And it is failing.

 

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Attendance decline

You forgot the part about artificially eliminating 12,000 seats. If the A’s current attendance stayed the same, but you added 10,000 more to their biggest draws (Giants Yanks BoSox fireworks), that’s another 150,000 butt-filled seats to the gross tally. And that doesn’t even count the ancilliary effect of discouraging attendance at non-sellout games.

They want to steal the land papers which is why they have tried to break in. But they had to give up after being bitten by Chhotu.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Aug 4, 2008 11:40 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

true, but I guess there are different ways of looking at your point.

First, attendance is falling as I described, and Lew is the one who made the decision to close the upper deck. So from a business standpoint, he needs to live with the results.
Second, he partially did this so he could increase attendance due to having an ambiance that would attract more fans for the available seats. (Though he also did it to save money on expenses in the upper deck.) Maybe it worked, and numbers would have been lower with the deck open-I doubt it, but either way it’s his call and shouldn’t he be accountable for the outcome?
Third, 2005 attendance fell off from 2004, and the upper deck was open. Wasn’t 2006 when the upper deck was closed? That would mean the fall off in 2007 and 2008 were apples to apples—attendance fell off in the “same” ballpark.

by alamedaman on Aug 4, 2008 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So from a business standpoint, he needs to live with the results.

Isn’t Lew netting a profit? I think he’s fine with the results, from a business standpoint.

by methodrampage on Aug 4, 2008 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe

several of those games (Giants Yanks BoSox) DID NOT come close to selling out this year, so cry me a river…

by sf drift king on Aug 5, 2008 1:43 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's a bit premature to call his

tenure a failure. Something I’ve pondered for a while now….why exactly did Wolfe buy the team? He’s never shown an inclination in his previous business dealings to indicate that he was interested in sporting franchises in as far as I know. Another thing, the Fischers own the majority of the team, and yet one never hears a word from them. I realize that Wolfe is the managing partner, but it’s still a curious arrangement.

I’ve often wondered if Lew wasn’t brought on as a hired gun by Selig. Lew’s an old friend, and Selig has a clearly defined need concerning the Oakland franchise. Lest anyone read anything untoward in my meaning….no, I don’t think Selig hates Oakland. On the other hand, I have no trouble believing that he views the bifurcated Bay market as currently constituted a less than ideal arrangement. Fact is, he has two teams in a very significant market, yet those two teams are marketed to the same population segment, while a huge share of the market sits a few miles to the south and is vastly, “underserved”. From a business perspective, it makes sense to separate the two.

If that indeed is the view of the commissioners office, then Fremont falling through may or may not bode well for Oakland. Truth be told, the city itself doesn’t appear all that concerned with whether the team stays or not.

I tend to think that SJ may get a proper shot at the team if the Fremont deal collapses. Selig won’t force his hand against the Giants “rights” as long as other options exist, primarily because he is loathe to disturb the relative tranquility amongst the ownership. On the other hand, the other owners are not going to be content to allow the A’s to continue on as a “welfare” case in the revenue sharing scheme. They will pressure the Giants into accepting a SJ arrangement if one can be engineered.

Anywhoo….that’s plan B in my rather uniformed opinion.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Aug 4, 2008 12:00 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

I can easily see paying the Giants out of revenue sharing money.

It doesn’t sound all that uninformed to me.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 4, 2008 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure about San Jose

What Selig wants is uber-franchises – franchises that dominate large markets. Ticket prices/attendance are only a very small part wringing dollars out of a region at this point – the real money is in TV contracts, merchandising, corporate sponsorships, etc. It does make sense to split the A’s and Giants … but if they move the A’s to San Jose we’re still essentially where we are now, with two medium-ish size franchises splitting a market that really isn’t quite big enough to support two huge teams (in the sense that teams get huge now – it isn’t the 80s anymore) ... to say nothing of the fact that the Giants would fight it to the death because the A’s taking the South Bay would really cripple them.

The scary thing is it might make more sense from a valuation standpoint for them to be 300 miles apart rather than 10 miles apart. And if that’s what Selig decides it sure isn’t going to be the Giants who do the moving. It would create an uber-franchise in the Giants (they get the entire Bay Area) and potentially the A’s as well if they move to the right city (all the usual suspects please line up).

That’s what worries me.

by jdr on Aug 4, 2008 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He did allow the Nationals to move into former Orioles territory.

I also don’t believe San Jose and Oakland are done growing. Yeah the real estate market sucks now but it also did in 1992. There aren’t many markets that have the potential for massive growth that Northern California has. And I say this as someone who doesn’t particularly like Northern California and recently turned down a chance to move there from St Louis.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 4, 2008 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah ...

But there are a lot of differences. The D.C. metro area is actually bigger than Baltimore’s metro area (though a lot less affluent) and D.C. had a team before … plus it gets bonus points for being our nation’s capital (Bud needs Washington to be happy) and the Expos needed a new home.

by jdr on Aug 4, 2008 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If there was a "right city" Lew wouldn't be looking at Fremont ... (unless, of course, the Marlins beat the A's to it)

There is no city that wouldn’t almost certainly permanently doom the A’s to the permanent underclass of the league …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 4, 2008 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Aren't we already?

Financially, at least. And there are a few regions out there that are essentially the size of the East Bay. If they could get a shiny new stadium out of it …

And I’m not sure there aren’t any cities that would “work”. It’s true there aren’t any happily vacated New York/Chicago/Dallas type cities, but you don’t strictly need a massive city to be successful. The Giants are a perfect example. They’re in a pretty big region (SF, San Jose, and the traitors on the other side of the Caldecott tunnel) they’re splitting it with another team to a certain degree, but they more or less dominate the market in terms of the TV contract, corporate advertising, they’ve got the new stadium, etc. Other teams like St. Louis, Seattle – these aren’t MASSIVE areas but they’ve got financially successful high-payroll franchises because they have no competition.

Because in the end it’s not completely about region size, it’s about dominating a market. Here we’re always going to be the second son and our TV/advertising is always going to reflect that. As a fan I can deal with that – I WANT the A’s to stay in Oakland … but I can’t imagine that Bud isn’t looking at the situation and saying Hmmmmm.

by jdr on Aug 4, 2008 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree that the Giants are always going to be the first son.

Their watchers don’t seem particularly eager to sit through the good times and bad times with the team. A good chunk would follow the A’s if it were a superior “trendy” product.

I think Bud definitely wants better penetration into Silicon Valley, more than he wants Portland, Sacramento, Memphis or any other such place. Silicon Valley isn’t the nation’s capital but it is one of the four biggest corporate money centers in North America. The A’s are the most logical vehicle to fulfill that objective. If Fremont fails I see the A’s moving to San Jose proper. San Jose wants it. Bud wants it. The other owners want it. That means Magowan can extort a steep price, but he’ll eventually have to take it and move on.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 4, 2008 7:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I tend to agree with jdr...

...the Giants will always be the #1 in the area. I also believe that, occasional dual successes notwithstanding, the bay area is not a hotbed of baseball and really shouldn’t have two teams. If forethought were employed by the AL in 1968, that is.

When the A’s moved from Kansas City, there were other cities… that would never have two-team competition… that were better options. Dallas/Ft Worth being just one prime example. The biggest advantage Oakland had going for it was a serious major league ready stadium in place and waiting to be used. Other “better” cities lacked that. Even staying in KC was probably a better option.

What keeps the A’s from gaining equal or superior status in the bay area? The Giants’ 10 year head start that allowed them to establish a fan base? Charlie Finley alienating fans? Something else? All of the above?

I don’t like saying it, but if one is truly objective, I think it’s obvious that the A’s never should have been allowed to move to Oakland in the first place. But, they’re here, and I’d prefer they stay.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Aug 4, 2008 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

When I lived there (1984-88)

Both teams went from bad to good. The A’s drew better because their ballpark was nicer and easier to get to and warmer. I didn’t see any great loyalty on the part of Candlestick goers to the Giants. Heck a lot of them were there to watch the Cubs or Cardinals or Mets or Phillies. Magowan had to buy the Giants to keep them from moving.

The area may be indifferent, but each team has a chance to compete for the market. Neither team is particularly entrenched.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 1:05 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

the Giants have always had the better TV contract though

I was a kid in the late 80s and they (the Giants) were always carried channel 2 (a major station) ... they A’s bounced around with some on 5, some on 36, all over the place, most of their games weren’t on – nothing has changed. It’s because the corporate dollars want to be associated with the big international city. It’s the same reason you find more Giants fans the further east over the hills you go than A’s fans. The wealthy people out in Blackhawk don’t care, so given a choice they associate themselves with the big city, not provincial Oakland. NOTE: I don’t think Oakland is provincial.

by jdr on Aug 5, 2008 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is true. I used to listen to the call in shows on KNBR.

In the beginning I didn’t know whether asking about the A’s was even allowed.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There is no free market that is as big as half of the Bay Area in terms of population or wealth ...

The biggest free markets are about 1/3 of the Bay Area in population and a bit less than that in wealth and media market. Seattle is a bit more than half the Bay Area in population. St Louis is just under half but has the notable advantage of a long history with the Cardinals and is right around the median, league-wide. These aren’t bad markets. If the A’s had either of them available, they would have left 5 years ago.

The largest markets available are Portland and Sacramento, with 2.2 and 2.1 million, respectively. Furthermore, neither are even markets that the team would be guaranteed to dominate—I live in Sacramento and the Giants are definitely currently the more popular team here, despite the Rivercats being here. Many Portland-area baseball fans are already Mariner fans as well.

These - the best options available, are comparable to Kansas City - the smallest MLB city—in population size. They are very poor options.

I’m not saying that the team is not already part of the underclass, financially speaking—but at least in the Bay Area, there is the chance to improve. If the team could split the region, 50-50, it would be in the middle of the pack in terms of population and above average in wealth and media market. There’s also the possibility of taking more than 50% of the region. The Bay Area is fickle and, assuming the A’s are still here, they will likely have the newer, nicer stadium and, presently look like they will be the better team for the foreseeable future.

I’d love for the A’s to stay in Oakland too. I grew up in Oakland, I love Oakland. I support the A’s so much because they are the Oakland A’s. A significant part of my fan-dom will die if and when they move. From a business perspective, it does not make any sense at all for the team to stay without public support for a stadium, though and from a public policy perspective it does not make any sense at all for the city to subsidize a stadium.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 4, 2008 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What you say about market size and affluence is true, but...

...that doesn’t mean that enough of these people are baseball fans.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Aug 4, 2008 11:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure ...

but is there any reason to believe that Portland or Sacramento would be any different? (there is every reason to believe that Las Vegas is not like that)

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 5, 2008 12:16 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I mean Vegas is not better and is probably quite a bit worse ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 5, 2008 12:16 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Vegas is also a lot less affluent. So are Portland and Sacramento.

The league wants to be in the best cities in North America—New York, Los Angeles/Orange County, Chicago…..and San Jose. As an outsider, both to California and to the USA, if I wanted to penetrate all of the best markets, San Jose would be no lower than fourth on my list. It might be second behind New York. I can’t see Bud leaving office without checking that box.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 1:12 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

but is San Jose currently not penetrated by the Giants?

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 5, 2008 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nope

The Giants can’t get it up. Kind of embarrasing really (although their fans keep telling them it’s ok).

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 5, 2008 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Long-distance penetration isn't as satisfying to a city as local

daily penetration with strong commitment. Sure, the long distance kind can be exciting at first, but in the end it leaves the city wanting more emotionally.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, Vegas metro is smaller than Portland or Sacramento ...

and, unlike those cities, has nothing, what-so-ever outside of its metro.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 5, 2008 1:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's about the same according to wikipedia,

and is (was?) growing fast, but the nothing-whatsoever outside the metro is good point. And really I was just bringing that up as a consideration.

The A's colors are green and gold.

by mikeA on Aug 5, 2008 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, it's about the same ...

just a touch less than 2 mil …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 5, 2008 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tourist population

Vegas would undoubtedly get some kind of boost from tourists going to games. Plus Casino’s would probably buy a significant amount of tickets for comps and what not. With a retractable roof I think Vegas baseball could be a hot ticket.

by methodrampage on Aug 5, 2008 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Casinos don't spend money to encourage people to leave the Casino ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 5, 2008 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They could build a dome park in one of the casinos

with slots in place of cupholders.

The A's colors are green and gold.

by mikeA on Aug 5, 2008 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll sign on to that plan only if they change the team name to the Las Vegas Strippers

This is the highest-known density of gorillas that's ever been found. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 5, 2008 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree, I don't see a fit with tourism and the A's in Vegas at

all. The draw would be almost entirely from the locals, imo.

by alamedaman on Aug 5, 2008 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh, wait ... with not team at all ... that's true, I think ...

but I don’t think that’s really worth that much … it’s other negatives greatly outweigh it, though …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 5, 2008 1:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Possibly not, but...

...being in a single-team market could be the difference.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Aug 5, 2008 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

w/r/t your last sentence ...

... does it ever make sense from a public policy perspective for any city to subsidize a stadium?

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 5, 2008 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I used to think so, but not anymore.

My opinion now is that government should never finance stadiums and arenas. Anywhere, any time, for any team. Ever. If the team threatens to move… see ya.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Aug 5, 2008 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree with this. I believe it is justified if the local community sees it as a

community consumption cost and wants to bear that cost. It’s extremely unlikely that the Cardinals would have left St Louis for Portland or Sacramento but the new stadia, both in 1966 and recently were popular initiatives with very little opposition. The Cardinals are probably the most important civic item in the eyes of most St Louisans. As a purely economic issue, UncleLeo is most probably right.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

community consumption -- feh

I think we should go with more of a potlatch approach to new stadia—Fremont should pay to build the ballpark and Selig Acres, and then burn it all down.

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 5, 2008 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It probably doesn't make sense from an economics perspective ...

obviously there are other factors that are hard to measure accurately …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 5, 2008 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with your Cardinals example as to their status in the community, but...

...that’s exactly their economic incentive to build their own stadium and stay. They’re not going to get a better deal anywhere else, stadium or not.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Aug 5, 2008 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Most probably true, but the community leaders didn't see it that way.

The business community pushed very hard for the deals. Perhaps they had thoughts of fat contracts for their own businesses, but the general public put up almost no opposition.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If the community sees it as a consumption cost,

it should purchase the team itself, THEN build the stadium—not hand out large sums of cash with no strings attached.

New York could OWN the Yankees with the amount of money they’ve spent building a new boondoggle stadium FOR the Yankees.

And before someone goes off on some libertarian rant, the (community owned, nonprofit) Green Bay Packers are one of the best run franchises in sports.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Aug 5, 2008 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's not true ...

the total price tag of the new Yankee Stadium, which is mostly being foot by the Yankees, is right around the value of the franchise.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 5, 2008 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think the Cardinals are for sale to the public.

I doubt most people could use the tax benefits as profitably as the typical MLB owner does now. Of course if they repealed such benefits, I bet public ownership would take off, as in European football (I believe Americans call it “soccer”).

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

agree 100%

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 5, 2008 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps not ...

but other cities, like Fremont, have other advantages that would make subsidies less necessary.

Regardless, it makes especially little sense for Oakland.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 5, 2008 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No!!!! Not Crosby!!!!

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

{ cough }

Wrong Crosby.

This is the highest-known density of gorillas that's ever been found. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 5, 2008 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh OK. In that case....No!!!! Not Crosby!!!!

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

there was a study I recall

a few years ago that indicated that for the first 10 or so years, a new stadium/team is a good economic bounce. After that it trends out pretty neutral at best. So it means two things, a) it’s good to get a new team/stadium if you can get them fairly cheaply, i.e. they aren’t completely paid for by the city/population (ha ha), and b) if you’ve had a team for a long time and they start making big money demands, tread carefully.

Of course as has been pointed out above, there are more than strictly economic considerations.

by jdr on Aug 5, 2008 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps the Bay can't support

two “huge” teams, but it most likely can support two fairly large teams. Even with a bifurcated market, they would still control/split a very sizable region. They don’t necessarily have to be the largest when “viable” would do the trick. A split Bay market is still larger than a lot of other current regions.

The usual suspects appear to be inferior to a split bay in this case. As for the Giants fighting tooth and nail, I suspect that the Giants would make a fuss, but at the end of the day it would be their very own lodge that silences them. Nothing they could really do about that except cash the checks that are proffered. What MLB giveth, MLB can taketh. It’s not likely that 29 other owners would subvert their financial interest for the sake of the Giants.

The truth is that this is exactly what Selig is trying to accomplish by moving the A’s to Fremont. It’s a compromise concerning his true intentions, but it makes a conveinent end run around the Giants “rights” without provoking them into an un-necessary fight. If it falls through, then it’s another game entirely.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Aug 4, 2008 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Totally agree.

If MLB (as a larger entity) feels it is in their best interests to have the A’s in San Jose, it will happen, and there’s nothing the Giants will be able to do about it other than cash the compensation checks.

However, having said that, I’m doubtful that it will happen. Never say never, though.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Aug 4, 2008 9:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Giants would fricking insane

I’m surprised everyone thinks the Giants would roll over. Say the A’s do move to San Jose. You’d have to expect that in 10 years or so, it would become firmly A’s territory and the Giants would more or less lose that revenue stream.

So we go from the Giants having San Francisco, the South Bay, and Marin County and the A’s with the East Bay and some negligible slice of the North Bay to the A’s having the East Bay (all the fans left over), the South Bay, the wealthy southern part of the Peninsula, and whatever of the North Bay. The Giants are now boxed in with San Francisco, Marin, and the north not-so-nice part of the Peninsula. More importantly, all the advertising dollars that were coming out of corporate San Jose are now going to the A’s. That’s huge. They will fight this to the death and given that other teams don’t ever want their territorial rights ceded (let’s put a team in Brooklyn! Fort Worth! All that empty space in New England!) I’m inclined to think MLB would go with them. COULD they force the Giants? I’m not sure. Legally I don’t know to what degree teams own their territorial rights. WOULD they ever force them? Different question.

by jdr on Aug 5, 2008 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mostly good points

Except for that under the CBA, teams cannot sue each other or MLB. That makes Selig the supreme arbiter in the end. Should he build consensus in a particular direction, the Giants won’t be able to do much about it.

The Giants have been sucking away East Bay and North Bay fans since the new park opened. The A’s have already been suffering as a result. That trend would continue if a ballpark were built in SJ.

by vertig0 on Aug 5, 2008 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's a team in Brooklyn in the next 20 years.

Ft Worth I don’t know about.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't say they'd roll over...

...in fact, they’d throiw a HUGE fit about it. What I meant was that, if MLB were determined to allow it, they’d have no say in the matter.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Aug 5, 2008 6:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great post

from the Fremont perspective. I don’t blame Wolf for the playoff failures (they actually won a round) or the decision to rebuild. My guess is that Wolf’s net worth got hammered in this real estate crisis.

You are 100% correct that this project is DOA at this point, From a macro perspective this has grave implications on the A’s financial picture the next 5 years. The people who believe the franchise are swimming in the money because they cut payroll this year are misguided. The A’s are in no man’s land at this point as you correctly stated that a stadium backup plan does not seem to exist. The A’s will rely on revenue sharing subsidies and the windfall from MLB.Com to hopefully break even. The A’s revenue sharing income should go down drastically as the Yanks & Mets get a depreciation deduction for their new stadiums starting in 2009. I don’t see them being players in the free agent market until they show signs of being a 90 win team. I also smell a Marlins type tear down under the guise of rebuilding. The good news is that at least are pumping up their minor league draft and international budgets.

by DKNJ on Aug 4, 2008 12:20 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Bravo

John Fisher – #317 on Forbes, #99999 in our hearts.

by southofcruiseamerica on Aug 4, 2008 12:37 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

In addition to a team that had had quite a bit of success ...

he also inherited a team with a farm system in shambles, a disproportionate share of its payroll dedicated to a single injury ridden player …

The loss of attendance is not a problem financially because it has been offset by increased ticket prices and more efficient and predictable costs. If diminished attendance hurt revenues, they would re-open the third deck. They aren’t stupid.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 4, 2008 12:47 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

No ...

I’m saying that he should not be judged a failure because he came in during the decline phase of the normal success cycle …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 4, 2008 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seems to me he's done most things well and a couple of things badly.

1) Spend more money on payroll. Check
2) Do whatever it takes to get out of the first round. Check
3) Spend more on amateur talent. Check.
4) Leave Beane alone and support him how you can. Check.
5) Find a creative solution for the ballpark problem within territorial rights constraints. Check.
6) Turn a profit. Check.

The two things I can find fault with are

1) Make Crowley more visible on leading revenue generation efforts. What the heck does Crowley actually do to deserve a partnership stake?

2) Do whatever it takes to get better media presence—Radio, TV, Cable, Satellite, whatever. The status quo is clearly second class and makes the team appear second class relative to the Giants.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 4, 2008 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Aug 4, 2008 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Diminished attendance is most definitely a problem

You’re not just talking about ticket prices. You’re also talking about concessions, memorabilia and parking.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 4, 2008 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Concessions, not so much I think.

That hurts Aramark. It could conceivably hurt the A’s when the contract is negotiated, but it hardly concerns them in the here and now.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Aug 4, 2008 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They aren't stupid ...

if the numbers didn’t work, they would reopen the third deck.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 4, 2008 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep.

I read somewhere that they’re making more money on less people by “pushing” them to buy more expensive tickets.

Supposedly, the tarping was also intended to create an artificial demand for season tickets… less supply equals more demand, yada yada yada… and I’m not sure that happened.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Aug 4, 2008 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

that is also my recollection. that smaller space with more people

would actually increase ambiance and demand, sort of like a good restaurant. And I agree, I don’t think it has happened. Also though I will definitely follow the A’s, I’m giving up my great season tickets-just not worth the $6,000+ (a pair) which includes parking. I’ll just pay for the games I go to, and enjoy moving around and getting different views-though I’ll miss my seat mates.

by alamedaman on Aug 4, 2008 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe it

I moved from the Bay in 2003, was just and went to my first game in a few years. When I left you could still get the upper deck for $8 or something like that (and when I was a kid the bleachers were $3!!!) – I was amazed to see that now the cheapest ticket is $25 and those are all long gone. I ended up buying three $35 tickets which turned into $170 after all the fees and such. Considering they would have gotten $24 total for the three of us a few years ago vs. $170 now … I have little problem believing they’re making more at the gate now even with fewer seats.

That being said, ticket revenue is only a portion of total revenue, and a big chunk of it goes to the stadium operators anyway, rather than the team.

by jdr on Aug 4, 2008 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Only works because

overall ticket-driven revenue is a smaller part of a MLB team’s revenue picture than ever before, and because the A’s felt they could afford to write off a big part of its ticket-buying fan base, whose cheap ticket purchases and Oakland-based attendance would be removed from the equation in Fremont anyway. It’s my belief that this Eff You attitude is having an impact on current attendance beyond the third deck, as some fans decide to reciprocate the lack of affection. As such, should Fremont tank and the A’s find themselves “stuck” in Oakland for another 10 years, it’s possible that Wolffish may come to feel some loss from this “dollars yes, fans no” approach.

They want to steal the land papers which is why they have tried to break in. But they had to give up after being bitten by Chhotu.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Aug 4, 2008 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That may be true ...

if Wolffish misjudged their ability to get the new park done, their ownership reign would likely be a failure from a business standpoint …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 4, 2008 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wouldn't surprise me if...

...instead of pushing the 3rd deckers into the more expensive 2nd deck, they just pissed them off and drove them away.

Personally, I always hated the 3rd deck and hadn’t sit there for years, but that’s just me.

Still, it must work on some level, or they wouldn’t have continued to do it.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Aug 4, 2008 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Totally agree!

AHHHH! I left the stove on!!!
********OaKlAnDaThLeTiCs********

by LiZaRdReVoLuTiOn on Aug 4, 2008 1:30 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Timeline and circumstance

This may help in figuring out how Wolff/Fisher are proceeding.

By moving the opening date to at least 2012, they are delaying the point at which they would ask for financing. The ballpark should take 30 months to build. Financing should be lined up 3-6 months prior to that. That makes the latest point at which they could line up the loan would be around July-August 2009, a year from now. Had they stuck with the 2011 plan, the loan would have to happen now.

The loan is going to be private, which puts the prevailing interest automatically higher than
what Fremont or another municipality could get. As we already know, the loan market has dried up considerably due to various factors. Will things improve enough in a year to make it happen? Maybe, but I don’t expect significant change. I wouldn’t be surprised to see them push it out to 2013, the last option year of the current lease.

It really comes down to the current investor group. Along with the four partners we already know about (Wolff/Fisher/Beane/Crowley), there are numerous old money South Bay interests that Wolff brought in in the last few years. They, like Wolff, are veterans of the real estate game and know that market like the backs of their hands. They should be in sync on the matter, but it’s entirely dependent on their confidence in the market when the time comes to get the loan.

Cisco’s naming rights deal helps the A’s out a ton, since it reduces the debt load. Ownership is probably selling every conceivable space that could be sponsored to assist with this. Even if successful they’ll still have to foot 50-60% of the cost through other means.

Whatever they do, loans like these are set up so that debt service doesn’t begin until the team begins play in the ballpark, which would be April 2012/2013. That may play into ownership’s loan plans, since they would be 3-4 years removed from the current economic downturn.

by vertig0 on Aug 4, 2008 1:35 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

interesting stuff

whenever the new ballpark is mentioned, a vertig0 bat-signal should go up.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Aug 4, 2008 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And it should look like this...

There's no textbook for how to treat a geriatric tapir.

by Poppy on Aug 4, 2008 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

if failure is defined as being closer today

to nationals pirates royals marlins than when he started, agree. but, i have a hard time calling someone who has made that much money on this venture a failure. however, if he;s not trying to exposize or major league the movie us, tarping the top deck one of the worst business decisions humans have ever made.

owner of a lonely tarp

by oakath on Aug 4, 2008 1:55 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Not true (for all the reasons above)

1. Enough people who sat up there buy more expensive tickets to cancel out the ones who don’t come

2. They don’t have to run concessions etc up there, so there’s a cost savings

3. Theoretically, reduced supply increases demand but I don’t know if that’s had a noticeable effect (i.e. higher “premium” prices for NYY/BOS/SF games)

I’m surprised that they haven’t untarped for big series, but it’s probably an issue of cost of untarping/retarping exceeding the profit from filling the seats for three days.

I don’t think there’s any reason at all to think it’s “one of the worst business decisions humans have ever made”

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 4, 2008 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

do you enjoy going to restaurants

where 20% of the tables always have upside down chairs on top of ‘em?

owner of a lonely tarp

by oakath on Aug 4, 2008 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Depends on whether they seat tens of thousands of people.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 4, 2008 7:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't mind ... as long as there is a table open for me ...

it’s really, really annoying, though, when I have to wait …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 4, 2008 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The winning streak was only 20 games, and it was not a major league record, only an American League record.

by gio_is_the_future on Aug 4, 2008 2:02 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

thank you for the correction. I was at that 20th win,

but I guess with time I forgot it was just an AL record. At least I haven’t forgotten what a weird game that was, and the Scott Hatteberg home run to win in the bottom of the 9th-that’s right, isn’t it? I actually have the scorecard at home. You probably already know all of this, but I checked and found this site with some interesting facts on the Giants 1916 winning streak (it included a tie). Thank you, this will prevent me from embarrassing myself at cocktail parties-at least for another 5 or 6 years and I’ll likely forget again.

by alamedaman on Aug 4, 2008 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was at the game as well

Best game ever! (Yes, it was a Hatteberg walk-off)

by gio_is_the_future on Aug 5, 2008 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Huge failure on attendance

I’m not swayed by the fact that it hasn’t hurt revenue. The way he’s kept the revenue up is a giant middle finger to his fan base. It could really come back to bite him in the ass if Fremont fails. It might not be as easy to move the A’s out of state as he thinks.

"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico

by jeepers on Aug 4, 2008 3:55 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Lew won't be moving the team OOS

If Fremont doesn’t happen, Lew’s gone.

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 4, 2008 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You seem awfully sure of this

It’s more likely that the t-rights Pandora’s box will be opened. Loria/Samson have failed multiple times at getting ballparks for the Marlins and Expos, yet they’re still around. And in debt.

by vertig0 on Aug 4, 2008 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

all true

And, yes, I’m pulling that certitude out of my nether regions.

I don’t doubt that there may be some behind-the-scenes feints in the direction of revisiting the territorial rights issue—but as The Dogfather has pointed out, the new Giants regime may be more aggressive (from business, marketing, and litigation perspectives) than even Magowan.

What does the SJ area look like in terms of availability for Selig Acres? My gut feeling is that Lew’s utility and interest have most to do with the RE development scheme more than a simple stadium—and that while a stadium may eventually happen in SJ, I don’t know whether the ballpark pvillage will.

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 4, 2008 6:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"up in the error" ???

not exactly “up in the air” but I’ll take it!!

I think the financial difference in MLB between 2000, and 2007 is high and significant.

It really hurts the A’s.

The only mistake I think Wolfe and Fischer made was not going for a $21 million renovation to the Coli, instead of signing Loiaza.

The A’s FO should not bad-mouth the venue, no matter what. And, paint the damn place! Spend half of what Loiaza got, and make it feel like “our fans deserve the best”. Right now, the hardcore that show up for games, the 12-19,000, they are simply being shown “Doing not a thing ” in a macro sense for creating desire in fans to attend games. Other than making it a more profitable venue (.e.g tarp off seats) out of a static attendance figure.

Perhaps they miscalculated as to the speed in which a stadium could be built…. Fremont, what a can of worms!!

Had they approached Emeryville (where the old Oakland Oaks played their games) they would have the stadium by now. And =still= called the Oakland A’s, not the “Fremont Pathfinders” or whatever is going to happen.

Emeryville MAKES STUFF HAPPEN. Ikea is there for a very very very good reason. They could have located many places. Taxwise, permits, everything. Emeryville kicks butt.

No grade for Wolfe yet. Have to wait six-seven years. Things are still in flux.

"I never predict anything, and I never will." Paul Gascoigne, English footballer

by One won lost won on Aug 4, 2008 7:47 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Not Emeryville

Once IKEA and Bay Street were underway (ca. 2001), any thoughts of putting a ballpark in Emeryville would’ve been shot. Emeryville wasn’t even considered in the old HOK ballpark study. Emeryville is fantastic at attracting businesses of many types. The fact remains that the place isn’t very big.

$21 million towards the stadium would’ve been proverbially putting lipstick on a pig. No significant renovation could have occurred with that small amount.

by vertig0 on Aug 4, 2008 8:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What places were considered

in the HOK study? Even HOK is run by people subject to errors. You look at the footprint of Raley Field, add 30%, and I believe it could have been done in Emeryville/Oakland border. The reason it is not done at that location, is tied to a core reason just like the reason the “Fruitvale Station” proposal failed…the stadium is conceived, not as an entity unto itself, but a “tail wagging on a dog”, that “dog” being some sort of “baseball village”-housing entity.
The current housing crisis has yet to run its course. Maybe 2015 will be good for real estate in California, but DR Horton just announced record losses, much of it because of “California”.
A “baseball village” was a good idea in 2006, terrible idea in 2008-10.

As was once written, “a stroke of my pen instantly creates an army of 20,000 strong.” On what basis do you think that $21 million buys “lipstick on a pig”?? It’s easy to toss out vituperative judgments, but IMO writing that statement has no support with facts whatsoever.

"I never predict anything, and I never will." Paul Gascoigne, English footballer

by One won lost won on Aug 5, 2008 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

HOK Study

Uptown
Howard Terminal
Coliseum
Fremont (not the present site)
Pleasanton
Laney
Oak to 9th

The Full Study

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 5, 2008 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let's see

Typical scoreboard/fascia board replacement at an outdoor stadium- $10 million
Ford Center (Okla. City) renovations to bring it up to NBA “spec” even though it opened only 6 years ago and more than capably held NBA games for a year post-Katrina – $121 million (includes $25-30 million for a practice facility)
Likely cost to create a separate concourse for the main suite level at the Coliseum – at least $50 million

$21 million is an arbitrary number. Can you cite where that money should go? How extensive the paint job should be?

by vertig0 on Aug 5, 2008 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

$21 million

should paint the inside walkway walls and ceilings that are “underground parking garage gray” concrete. At least one level.

That’s a minimum improvement. And really, the Oakland Coli -Alameda County authority should be doing this…. the A’s play 80-86 Coli dates a year ..not even 90% of potential revenue days.

One never sees when the mind is not prompted. I’ll give you a list after my next A’s ball game (day game next week??).

I saw the budget for a concrete wheelchair ramp for a Market St. bldg in 1984…$333,000 for a forty-foot ramp… so I know these “architectural improvements” are ridiculous.

"I never predict anything, and I never will." Paul Gascoigne, English footballer

by One won lost won on Aug 5, 2008 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let me settle this once and for all:

It does NOT cost $21million to put lipstick on a pig. In fact, it’s about $5.39 plus tax.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Aug 5, 2008 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not if the pig has class

Then it’s more like $30

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 5, 2008 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pigs cost more than $35.39 plus tax.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nico pays $69 a night for his pigs

On general principles

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 5, 2008 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

he doesn't get hourly rates?

"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty

by 5Aces on Aug 5, 2008 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You mean like $10/hr. That's barely minimum wage.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

exactly

Emeryville in and of itself is a decent location – especially since last I checked they have a lot of Bay “coastline” that’s essentially being wasted. One also wonders exactly where the stadium would go now that they have the aforementioned IKEA et. al. But they simply couldn’t raise the money to build a stadium anyway – Oakland isn’t going to help pay for a stadium whose tax receipts are all going to Emeryville. Lest we forget, Oakland and Fremont are in competition here (to whatever degree Oakland is competing). Emeryville got IKEA because they can offer tax breaks – they didn’t pay them to show up.

by jdr on Aug 5, 2008 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've never gotten that impression

Becoming an owner primarily to get a cut of a real estate deal done is really roundabout way of doing business. As I understand it, the idea of Fremont/Cisco was first floated by Lew’s son Keith Wolff, not Lew himself. I don’t know when the idea originated, so there could’ve been some creative timing to certain actions.

San Jose doesn’t and won’t have the large land deal that Wolff would need to get a similar development done. He is working on a smaller deal for the Quakes’ stadium that would have the residential portion in South San Jose, far away from the stadium site. I think the two projects are linked somehow, but they still have to pay for themselves for the most part.

San Jose does have one thing that, if Wolff is to believed at face value regarding Fremont’s difficulties, is quite valuable from a timing standpoint: a completed and certified EIR for a downtown ballpark. If Wolff wants to get away from Fremont’s “path of least resistance” strategy (which is looking more prone to resistance every day), he’ll find a lot of MLB political resistance in San Jose. The financing matter would still need to be resolved. But he’d have the EIR, and that’s a big step forward.

by vertig0 on Aug 4, 2008 7:55 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Also San Jose fancies itself a big league city and wants to develop its downtown into

a 24 hour downtown to avoid the “no there there” stigma. The politicians have to be in favor of MLB—more than in Oakland or even Fremont.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 4, 2008 8:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

My biggest complaint is that Beanewolffisher have

flipped off Oakland fans while the team is still here, doing a series of things to ensure declining attendance and interest as if the current fans – who are still the entire fan base – don’t matter. It’s pretty insulting.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Aug 4, 2008 8:46 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Not the way Emilbrownjackhannahanbobbycrosby has

It’s fun to concatenate names

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 4, 2008 9:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are you saying we're being DFA?

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 1:18 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be fair Schott did that too....and Finley before that.

It’s tradition.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 1:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Going back to 1901, the A's don't have a rich history of fan-friendly ownership.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Aug 5, 2008 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lew's comments wouldn't bother me so much if...

...he were doing more to create and retain fans. A few clever tv ads and an all-you-can-eat artery-clogging junk food section aren’t enough.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Aug 5, 2008 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've asked before, and I'll keep asking. What the heck does Crowley actually do?

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So true! there is next to zero interest in the fan base. but then again,

imo, there’s not much to do after telling the fans you’re leaving them. It’s just such idiocy to tell them you’re leaving in 5-7 years, maybe.

by alamedaman on Aug 5, 2008 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's kinda hard to hide a new stadium movement in Fremont while still pretending

to Oakland fans you’re not planning to move.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree. So you don't do it, imo. If you're going to move somewhere,

get out of town pretty fast. Not over a 5, 7 or more year period. so if you can’t build a new stadium locally, and don’t have an opportunity ready in Vegas or another spot, just focus on building your franchise. Lew’s strategy is a disaster. He made getting a new ballpark his number one objective. The objective should have been building a strong baseball team. That would lead to increased revenues, ability to compete better in free agency as well as the drafts. And with increasing money improving the current park. then who knows, at the right time a new park in the local area. I think he confused strategy and the fundamentals of running a baseball team with tactics and a temptation to combine his real estate background with baseball. Really, really dumb, imho.

by alamedaman on Aug 5, 2008 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why is it a disaster?

It’s not like the team is losing money. Hell, given the low payroll, it’s probably more profitable than ever …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 5, 2008 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would call a 20% loss in volume, in a market that is not shrinking,

a disaster. There are business strategies in a shrinking market where you raise prices and maximize profits in the short term, because it is the best alternative. Baseball is not one of those businesses. Next year’s attendance, imho, will be lower once again. Empty seats are going to give everyone a feeling of impending doom, both fans and ballplayers. And that will continue to happen until Lew, or his replacement, changes to a strategy that makes sense. For now, and I’m afraid the next several years, Lew will just dig the hole deeper.

Only short term thinkers in business believe profit is the only goal. Businesses need to satisfy their customers, they need to grow if the market is growing, they need to have a sense of mission and confidence. Otherwise everyone knows the business will just die.

by alamedaman on Aug 5, 2008 6:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

the flip side is that Wolff might be actually thinking short term

MLB has rigged the system though so that an individual franchise/owner will never die. They can be the crappiest losingest organization in the league and still be fabulously profitable for the owner. That’s why teams like the Royals and Rays (though now they’re becoming successful) are artillery battalion #1 for the anti-revenue sharing faction, because the teams can afford to run a much higher payroll but the owners are/were operating the team for cash. Wolff can afford to think short term b/c he can either run a low payroll for a few years and clean up via revenue sharing, or burn all his bridges to get a new stadium and then sell the team for double the price he paid for it. MLB set up this system (that no team would ever fail) after the Expos debacle and the MASSIVE negative PR that brought. One of my finest memories from that period was watching Peter Gammons flip like a turtle, starting as one of the most exuberant proponents of contraction at first before realizing how wildly unpopular it was and immediately reversing his position to bashing Bud.

What really aggravates me is the closing of the top deck. Because that’s where all the kids like me sat – we’d Bart over, buy $8 tickets, and be the loudest fans in the stadium. Closing off those seats was a big F-U, because now you can’t get a ticket that doesn’t run you less than $35-40 after all the fees. It’s a total abandonment of the young fans.

by jdr on Aug 5, 2008 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

thanks. do you have any links to the Royals that would show

their profit position? Is there any attendance level where Lew would not make money? For example, at another 20% drop they would be at 16,000 per game, and I don’t think they would get that at this year’s ticket prices. Is an owner literally guaranteed a profit? Of course it still might be a risk from Lew’s standpoint, because if revenue sharing were changed, he’d still have a problem.

by alamedaman on Aug 6, 2008 12:02 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

In 2002 ...

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1333

As best I can tell, the high end of revenue sharing payments is a bit over $30m … so if a team could limit its payroll to that total—think the A’s, minus Eric Chavez … or just think of the 2008 A’s … and that’s a $30m team. At that level of revenue sharing, the team would just have to bring in enough revenue to cover its overhead before it was in the black. That shouldn’t be hard.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 6, 2008 2:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

CBA has changed twice since then

Since Doug Pappas’ previous analysis, the revenue sharing pie has changed a bit. Nowadays teams all pay the same percentage, 31%. It used to be that have-nots paid a greater percentage (~34%) while haves paid less (31%). The Yanks are the only team in luxury tax hell every year, so that’s less in the kitty. More teams are also claiming stadium-related deductions, so their payouts are less. In all likelihood, the system has smoothed itself out.

The A’s get about $40 million every year from national sources, a.k.a. “Central Revenue.” Most teams also consider $40 million or more reasonable for non-player expenses. I don’t know what exactly those expenses are so I can’t completely call B.S. on it. The net effect is that based on their accounting, those two essentially cancel each other out.

That leaves what the A’s generate locally via ticket sales (poor), sponsorships (also poor), and TV/radio revenue (again poor). Selig has also advised teams to “live within their means,” creating a de facto individual team salary cap. We will occasionally see payroll jump for a have-not if they see a competitive window (A’s 2006-07), but otherwise they’ll scale back considerably.

More on this here.

by vertig0 on Aug 6, 2008 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, but you don't have to also salt the earth

on your way out of Oakland so that nothing will ever grow again. By which I refer to:

  • Pretending that you’re trying to get an Oakland park done at the set-up-to-fail 66th Ave Swap Meet site.
  • Insisting that a new BART station is a deal-breaking prerequisite, until you choose a site which BART doesn’t proximately serve
  • Eliminate many of the seats which a big part of your Oakland fan base loved
  • Openly denigrate the tailgaters, seat upgraders, BART riders, BART lot parkers and everyone else who spends their tight budget somewhere other than Unca Lew’s company store
  • Needlessly proclaim that even if Fremont fails, Oakland is no longer an option (“I wouldn’t be caught dead in your little shitburg!”)

It’s that stuff which gives many of the fans who actually attend a lot of games in Oakland the sense that we’re not wanted.

They want to steal the land papers which is why they have tried to break in. But they had to give up after being bitten by Chhotu.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Aug 5, 2008 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"even if Fremont fails, Oakland is no longer an option"

Did they say that? I missed that one. I would appreciate a link if you have it—I would like to add it to the story. Thanks.

Apologies for posting twice—put the first in the wrong place.

by alamedaman on Aug 5, 2008 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"A's will be gone from Oakland, co-owner says"
(10-22) 22:13 PDT San Francisco—The Oakland Athletics will leave Oakland regardless of whether Fremont approves plans for a new stadium, team co-owner Lew Wolff said Monday.

“We don’t want to move. We don’t want to start pitting cities against each other, but it’s out of the question we’ll stay in Oakland,” he said after a speech at the Commonwealth Club in San Francisco.

This is what vertig0 and I were bemusedly referring to the other day when we were saying how inexplicable Wolff’s comments were, since they seemed to serve no purpose other than to piss off Oakland boosters.

Link.

They want to steal the land papers which is why they have tried to break in. But they had to give up after being bitten by Chhotu.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Aug 5, 2008 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

inanity

Pitting cities against each other is exactly what they’re trying to do. That’s the whole point.

by jdr on Aug 5, 2008 7:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Except that pitting cities hasn't been the strategy

If it were they would be making more positive overtures to Oakland. Similarly, they’ve “ruled out” San Jose at the same time. If they wanted a bidding war they would’ve done things differently.

by vertig0 on Aug 5, 2008 8:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lew is a far, far bigger idiot than I had realized!

Thanks for this quote and link. I have been out of town and missed it. Just thinking strategically from the perspective of running your business, Lew has chosen a very risky approach with his Fremont plan as I’ve described above. It made it challenging to return to Oakland, or stay in Oakland, by its nature. But now he has made the Oakland fallback alternative very difficult to impossible. You have to be incredibly dumb to give up a possible alternative if your primary plan doesn’t work out. And even dumber to do that when it looks like your primary plan is not working out. This has done it for me as a season ticket holder. I had intellectually decided not to renew, but though I didn’t say it here, I think my heart would have over ridden that decision when it came to the deadline to buy the tickets. Not now-I guess Lew made this a very easy decision for me personally.

by alamedaman on Aug 5, 2008 11:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't know they were considering Pittsburg.
("I wouldn’t be caught dead in your little shitburg!")

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Aug 5, 2008 7:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"if Fremont fails, Oakland is no longer an option"

Did they say that? I missed that one. I would appreciate a link if you have it—I would like to add it to the story. Thanks.

by alamedaman on Aug 5, 2008 6:50 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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