Athletics Nation: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



New Blog: Five For Howling - for Coyotes fans Bar-right-arrows



Lew's first four years are a failure, imo.

This is the fourth year of Lew Wolff’s tenure as owner and managing partner of the A’s.  It’s pretty clear that the results are bad, very bad.  Lew inherited a franchise that was performing well on the field.  The previous four years showed two first place finishes, and two second place finishes—two 100+ game winning seasons, a 96 and 91 win season.  And of course the setting of a major league record for winning streaks, at 21 games.  Attendance had grown to 27,000+ per game, not great but improving.  Oakland was a little less than average in the major leagues—19th out of 31 teams.  Playoff results had been disappointing, and there had been fan disappointment with the loss of some high performing and loved players—Giambi and Tejada for example.  But in my view, and I believe many fans at the time, we were excited about the teams prospects.

 

 

Star-divide

And in fact, the team continued to win in the first two seasons of Lew’s reign, as the momentum on the field continued from the cadre of players in place—a second place finish, first place finish, and an advancement to the American League playoffs.  Unfortunately in Lew’s first year attendance began to slip, and has continued to slip each year.  In 2005 where the A’s finished 2nd behind the A’s, just as in 2004, attendance fell 4.2%--disturbing since the team had such a similar year as the one before.  Then in 2006 the A’s had a fantastic year, but attendance again slipped, this time 6.3%--even more disturbing.  Results on the field have slipped in 2007 and 2008, and attendance has continued to drop—running 10.4% behind last year so far this season.  If the current attendance rate holds even for the remainder of this year, which it won’t, attendance will have slipped an incredible 21.8%. 

 

Clearly on the field performance has a lot to do with this slippage, and that can’t be put at the feet of the owner.  But attendance began to slip immediately as Lew came in, even as the team was performing well, and in fact, performance climbing to an exciting trip to the League playoffs in 2006.  My view is that Lew has been a major cause of this attendance slippage.  One of his earliest and strongest themes upon coming to the A’s was that the A’s had to have a new ballpark.  He even brought in the Commissioner of Baseball, and his college frat bro, to emphasize how important this was for the A’s.  Bud Selig basically  said the A’s could not survive without a new ballpark.  Lew did say that Oakland was his first choice, but the A’s fans are not total idiots, and knew that while Oakland was a possibility, the odds against that happening had to be at 3 to 1 or worse given the financial straits of the city of Oakland and the lukewarm attitude to the A’s by Mayor Jerry Brown and most of the politicians--at least that was my guess.

The Oakland scenario of course did not play out, and in November of 2006 Lew announced that the A’s were moving to Fremont.  He of course hoped that current A’s fans would drive 30 miles down the car packed 880, or take Bart—wait, not Bart, to see their beloved A’s.  In my opinion, this was an incredibly reckless decision.  The availability of the new stadium date was a little up in the error, but for purposes of discussion let’s assume a target date of 2011.  That meant that Lew announced the move of his team 5 years in advance of the move!!  What in the world did he think was going to happen to the fan base?  Obviously some fans would begin to drop out.  And just as obviously new fans living, let’s say, north of the Coliseum would have second thoughts about becoming A’s fans.  Then again, most A’s fans new when Lew came in before the 2005 season that it would play out with a move.  So in reality, current fans and potential new fans knew from before the beginning of the ’05 season until the projected 2011 season that the team would be in Fremont.  So actually the fan base and potential fan base has been in limbo for 7 years!!  But of course there could be slippage on the move in date—and the current A’s website says "Estimated to open sometime before the 2013 season, Cisco Field", so maybe there is at least one more year to add to all of those estimates.

So how about the new fans from Fremont and San Jose?  It was certainly not realist to think they would buy tickets in Oakland prior to the move.

But as I wrote in a January diary, it’s more than possible that the Fremont stadium will never open.  And that possibility came out in some of Lew’s recent comments—thanks to New A’s Ballpark for identifying the following stories and links

But where that future will take place remains in as much question as ever, especially after managing partner Lew Wolff told Bay Area News Group he's unsure if the team's attempt to build a new state-of-the-art ballpark in Fremont will succeed.

"I don't know. I honestly don't," Wolff said Wednesday when asked if Cisco Field will come to fruition. "But say it doesn't. We're still under a lot of pressure to get a park that is our own. That isn't going to go away. So my hope is that we'll find a way to make it happen. It has not been as easy as I thought it would be."

One day after these comments Lew put a more positive spin on them,  

A day after Oakland A's owner Lew Wolff publicly stated he wasn't sure if he would succeed in building a new baseball stadium in Fremont, he told the Mercury News that he's frustrated at the lingering pace, but ultimately thinks "Ballpark Village" will rise in the Bay Area's fourth largest city.

Wolff is troubled about the length of time it's taking to satisfy major property owners near the proposed 32,000-seat Cisco Field and to complete an environmental review.

"I still think it's going to happen," Wolff, a major South Bay developer, said today from his office in Los Angeles. "Otherwise I wouldn't be doing this."

But clearly the possibility of the deal falling through is on his mind.

While Lew talks mainly about the delays with the Environmental Impact studies, I continue to think the main problem will be that the project will not make sense because of its dependence on both residential and commercial real estate.  I said then,

The 2007 debacle with subprime mortages and plummeting housing prices will kill the new ballpark in Fremont.  The A's will have to rethink their planned move, and likely remain in Oakland………But the dramatic changes in our economy are causing Lou Wolff and his investors to rethink this project.  It would not be in their interests to let this out to the news media.  But Lou and his investors are pretty savvy investors, and they are not about to invest huge dollars into a project that depends upon new homes and a thriving economy.  There is no need for them to announce today that the project is dead.  They don't have to put their money down today.  But no one would invest in this project today.  So you will see this drama play out, Fremot and the other players going through the motions, but this project doesn't make sense now, and when the time comes for everyone to pony up--they will not. 

I basically think the same today.  There is some chance of a "bear market" housing rally, imo, in the next 12 to 18 months, but demographic trends are very negative.  I would guess there is an 80% chance the management group pulls out of the deal.  And a 20% chance they read the economy differently and move ahead—and imho it would turn into a financial disaster.

The problem for Lew, the A’s, and for hardcore A’s fans is that this strategy will have long term negative impact on the franchise.  This huge loss of attendance is a major problem financially, and will impact decision making in the business.  And the momentum right now is going the wrong way.  I believe attendance will continue to fall this year and next.  And a combination of ego and uncertainty on the part of Lew and his partners will prevent them from making a quick decision and turning this situation around.  I wouldn’t be surprised to see this linger on into 2010, when reality just forces a decision to stay in Oakland.  But attendance and the franchise will have suffered greatly by then.

So I would have to give Lew a failing grade for his performance in his first four baseball years, the 2005-2008 seasons.  He made, or accepted, an assumption that the most important objective of the franchise was a new ballpark—I don’t think that was true.  Since he accepted that assumption, he chose a very high risk strategy which clearly was going to tell the fans the team was moving 5-7 years before the move date—incredibly demoralizing to fans. I can’t totally blame him for this one, but he clearly misread the economic environment when he pulled the trigger on the move to Fremont.  But I can blame him for this one, he didn’t, doesn’t, have a fallback strategy if his plan failed.  And it is failing.

 

5 recs | Comment 133 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Attendance decline

You forgot the part about artificially eliminating 12,000 seats. If the A’s current attendance stayed the same, but you added 10,000 more to their biggest draws (Giants Yanks BoSox fireworks), that’s another 150,000 butt-filled seats to the gross tally. And that doesn’t even count the ancilliary effect of discouraging attendance at non-sellout games.

They want to steal the land papers which is why they have tried to break in. But they had to give up after being bitten by Chhotu.

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Aug 4, 2008 11:40 AM PDT   0 recs

true, but I guess there are different ways of looking at your point.

First, attendance is falling as I described, and Lew is the one who made the decision to close the upper deck. So from a business standpoint, he needs to live with the results.
Second, he partially did this so he could increase attendance due to having an ambiance that would attract more fans for the available seats. (Though he also did it to save money on expenses in the upper deck.) Maybe it worked, and numbers would have been lower with the deck open-I doubt it, but either way it’s his call and shouldn’t he be accountable for the outcome?
Third, 2005 attendance fell off from 2004, and the upper deck was open. Wasn’t 2006 when the upper deck was closed? That would mean the fall off in 2007 and 2008 were apples to apples—attendance fell off in the “same” ballpark.

by alamedaman on Aug 4, 2008 4:10 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

So from a business standpoint, he needs to live with the results.

Isn’t Lew netting a profit? I think he’s fine with the results, from a business standpoint.

by methodrampage on Aug 4, 2008 4:22 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I believe

several of those games (Giants Yanks BoSox) DID NOT come close to selling out this year, so cry me a river…

by sf drift king on Aug 5, 2008 1:43 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I think it's a bit premature to call his

tenure a failure. Something I’ve pondered for a while now….why exactly did Wolfe buy the team? He’s never shown an inclination in his previous business dealings to indicate that he was interested in sporting franchises in as far as I know. Another thing, the Fischers own the majority of the team, and yet one never hears a word from them. I realize that Wolfe is the managing partner, but it’s still a curious arrangement.

I’ve often wondered if Lew wasn’t brought on as a hired gun by Selig. Lew’s an old friend, and Selig has a clearly defined need concerning the Oakland franchise. Lest anyone read anything untoward in my meaning….no, I don’t think Selig hates Oakland. On the other hand, I have no trouble believing that he views the bifurcated Bay market as currently constituted a less than ideal arrangement. Fact is, he has two teams in a very significant market, yet those two teams are marketed to the same population segment, while a huge share of the market sits a few miles to the south and is vastly, “underserved”. From a business perspective, it makes sense to separate the two.

If that indeed is the view of the commissioners office, then Fremont falling through may or may not bode well for Oakland. Truth be told, the city itself doesn’t appear all that concerned with whether the team stays or not.

I tend to think that SJ may get a proper shot at the team if the Fremont deal collapses. Selig won’t force his hand against the Giants “rights” as long as other options exist, primarily because he is loathe to disturb the relative tranquility amongst the ownership. On the other hand, the other owners are not going to be content to allow the A’s to continue on as a “welfare” case in the revenue sharing scheme. They will pressure the Giants into accepting a SJ arrangement if one can be engineered.

Anywhoo….that’s plan B in my rather uniformed opinion.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Aug 4, 2008 12:00 PM PDT   1 recs

I can easily see paying the Giants out of revenue sharing money.

It doesn’t sound all that uninformed to me.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 4, 2008 1:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm not sure about San Jose

What Selig wants is uber-franchises – franchises that dominate large markets. Ticket prices/attendance are only a very small part wringing dollars out of a region at this point – the real money is in TV contracts, merchandising, corporate sponsorships, etc. It does make sense to split the A’s and Giants … but if they move the A’s to San Jose we’re still essentially where we are now, with two medium-ish size franchises splitting a market that really isn’t quite big enough to support two huge teams (in the sense that teams get huge now – it isn’t the 80s anymore) ... to say nothing of the fact that the Giants would fight it to the death because the A’s taking the South Bay would really cripple them.

The scary thing is it might make more sense from a valuation standpoint for them to be 300 miles apart rather than 10 miles apart. And if that’s what Selig decides it sure isn’t going to be the Giants who do the moving. It would create an uber-franchise in the Giants (they get the entire Bay Area) and potentially the A’s as well if they move to the right city (all the usual suspects please line up).

That’s what worries me.

by jdr on Aug 4, 2008 2:17 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

He did allow the Nationals to move into former Orioles territory.

I also don’t believe San Jose and Oakland are done growing. Yeah the real estate market sucks now but it also did in 1992. There aren’t many markets that have the potential for massive growth that Northern California has. And I say this as someone who doesn’t particularly like Northern California and recently turned down a chance to move there from St Louis.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 4, 2008 2:22 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah ...

But there are a lot of differences. The D.C. metro area is actually bigger than Baltimore’s metro area (though a lot less affluent) and D.C. had a team before … plus it gets bonus points for being our nation’s capital (Bud needs Washington to be happy) and the Expos needed a new home.

by jdr on Aug 4, 2008 3:19 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

If there was a "right city" Lew wouldn't be looking at Fremont ... (unless, of course, the Marlins beat the A's to it)

There is no city that wouldn’t almost certainly permanently doom the A’s to the permanent underclass of the league …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 4, 2008 2:43 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Aren't we already?

Financially, at least. And there are a few regions out there that are essentially the size of the East Bay. If they could get a shiny new stadium out of it …

And I’m not sure there aren’t any cities that would “work”. It’s true there aren’t any happily vacated New York/Chicago/Dallas type cities, but you don’t strictly need a massive city to be successful. The Giants are a perfect example. They’re in a pretty big region (SF, San Jose, and the traitors on the other side of the Caldecott tunnel) they’re splitting it with another team to a certain degree, but they more or less dominate the market in terms of the TV contract, corporate advertising, they’ve got the new stadium, etc. Other teams like St. Louis, Seattle – these aren’t MASSIVE areas but they’ve got financially successful high-payroll franchises because they have no competition.

Because in the end it’s not completely about region size, it’s about dominating a market. Here we’re always going to be the second son and our TV/advertising is always going to reflect that. As a fan I can deal with that – I WANT the A’s to stay in Oakland … but I can’t imagine that Bud isn’t looking at the situation and saying Hmmmmm.

by jdr on Aug 4, 2008 6:03 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I disagree that the Giants are always going to be the first son.

Their watchers don’t seem particularly eager to sit through the good times and bad times with the team. A good chunk would follow the A’s if it were a superior “trendy” product.

I think Bud definitely wants better penetration into Silicon Valley, more than he wants Portland, Sacramento, Memphis or any other such place. Silicon Valley isn’t the nation’s capital but it is one of the four biggest corporate money centers in North America. The A’s are the most logical vehicle to fulfill that objective. If Fremont fails I see the A’s moving to San Jose proper. San Jose wants it. Bud wants it. The other owners want it. That means Magowan can extort a steep price, but he’ll eventually have to take it and move on.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 4, 2008 7:16 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I tend to agree with jdr...

...the Giants will always be the #1 in the area. I also believe that, occasional dual successes notwithstanding, the bay area is not a hotbed of baseball and really shouldn’t have two teams. If forethought were employed by the AL in 1968, that is.

When the A’s moved from Kansas City, there were other cities… that would never have two-team competition… that were better options. Dallas/Ft Worth being just one prime example. The biggest advantage Oakland had going for it was a serious major league ready stadium in place and waiting to be used. Other “better” cities lacked that. Even staying in KC was probably a better option.

What keeps the A’s from gaining equal or superior status in the bay area? The Giants’ 10 year head start that allowed them to establish a fan base? Charlie Finley alienating fans? Something else? All of the above?

I don’t like saying it, but if one is truly objective, I think it’s obvious that the A’s never should have been allowed to move to Oakland in the first place. But, they’re here, and I’d prefer they stay.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Aug 4, 2008 9:48 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

When I lived there (1984-88)

Both teams went from bad to good. The A’s drew better because their ballpark was nicer and easier to get to and warmer. I didn’t see any great loyalty on the part of Candlestick goers to the Giants. Heck a lot of them were there to watch the Cubs or Cardinals or Mets or Phillies. Magowan had to buy the Giants to keep them from moving.

The area may be indifferent, but each team has a chance to compete for the market. Neither team is particularly entrenched.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 1:05 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

the Giants have always had the better TV contract though

I was a kid in the late 80s and they (the Giants) were always carried channel 2 (a major station) ... they A’s bounced around with some on 5, some on 36, all over the place, most of their games weren’t on – nothing has changed. It’s because the corporate dollars want to be associated with the big international city. It’s the same reason you find more Giants fans the further east over the hills you go than A’s fans. The wealthy people out in Blackhawk don’t care, so given a choice they associate themselves with the big city, not provincial Oakland. NOTE: I don’t think Oakland is provincial.

by jdr on Aug 5, 2008 12:51 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

This is true. I used to listen to the call in shows on KNBR.

In the beginning I didn’t know whether asking about the A’s was even allowed.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 1:15 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

There is no free market that is as big as half of the Bay Area in terms of population or wealth ...

The biggest free markets are about 1/3 of the Bay Area in population and a bit less than that in wealth and media market. Seattle is a bit more than half the Bay Area in population. St Louis is just under half but has the notable advantage of a long history with the Cardinals and is right around the median, league-wide. These aren’t bad markets. If the A’s had either of them available, they would have left 5 years ago.

The largest markets available are Portland and Sacramento, with 2.2 and 2.1 million, respectively. Furthermore, neither are even markets that the team would be guaranteed to dominate—I live in Sacramento and the Giants are definitely currently the more popular team here, despite the Rivercats being here. Many Portland-area baseball fans are already Mariner fans as well.

These - the best options available, are comparable to Kansas City - the smallest MLB city—in population size. They are very poor options.

I’m not saying that the team is not already part of the underclass, financially speaking—but at least in the Bay Area, there is the chance to improve. If the team could split the region, 50-50, it would be in the middle of the pack in terms of population and above average in wealth and media market. There’s also the possibility of taking more than 50% of the region. The Bay Area is fickle and, assuming the A’s are still here, they will likely have the newer, nicer stadium and, presently look like they will be the better team for the foreseeable future.

I’d love for the A’s to stay in Oakland too. I grew up in Oakland, I love Oakland. I support the A’s so much because they are the Oakland A’s. A significant part of my fan-dom will die if and when they move. From a business perspective, it does not make any sense at all for the team to stay without public support for a stadium, though and from a public policy perspective it does not make any sense at all for the city to subsidize a stadium.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 4, 2008 10:40 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

What you say about market size and affluence is true, but...

...that doesn’t mean that enough of these people are baseball fans.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Aug 4, 2008 11:34 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Sure ...

but is there any reason to believe that Portland or Sacramento would be any different? (there is every reason to believe that Las Vegas is not like that)

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 5, 2008 12:16 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I mean Vegas is not better and is probably quite a bit worse ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 5, 2008 12:16 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Vegas is also a lot less affluent. So are Portland and Sacramento.

The league wants to be in the best cities in North America—New York, Los Angeles/Orange County, Chicago…..and San Jose. As an outsider, both to California and to the USA, if I wanted to penetrate all of the best markets, San Jose would be no lower than fourth on my list. It might be second behind New York. I can’t see Bud leaving office without checking that box.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 1:12 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

but is San Jose currently not penetrated by the Giants?

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 5, 2008 9:41 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Nope

The Giants can’t get it up. Kind of embarrasing really (although their fans keep telling them it’s ok).

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 5, 2008 9:46 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Long-distance penetration isn't as satisfying to a city as local

daily penetration with strong commitment. Sure, the long distance kind can be exciting at first, but in the end it leaves the city wanting more emotionally.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 9:54 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No, Vegas metro is smaller than Portland or Sacramento ...

and, unlike those cities, has nothing, what-so-ever outside of its metro.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 5, 2008 1:20 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It's about the same according to wikipedia,

and is (was?) growing fast, but the nothing-whatsoever outside the metro is good point. And really I was just bringing that up as a consideration.

The A's colors are green and gold.

by mikeA on Aug 5, 2008 8:57 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, it's about the same ...

just a touch less than 2 mil …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 5, 2008 9:54 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Tourist population

Vegas would undoubtedly get some kind of boost from tourists going to games. Plus Casino’s would probably buy a significant amount of tickets for comps and what not. With a retractable roof I think Vegas baseball could be a hot ticket.

by methodrampage on Aug 5, 2008 3:25 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Casinos don't spend money to encourage people to leave the Casino ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 5, 2008 3:48 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

They could build a dome park in one of the casinos

with slots in place of cupholders.

The A's colors are green and gold.

by mikeA on Aug 5, 2008 3:51 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'll sign on to that plan only if they change the team name to the Las Vegas Strippers

This is the highest-known density of gorillas that's ever been found. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 5, 2008 4:36 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree, I don't see a fit with tourism and the A's in Vegas at

all. The draw would be almost entirely from the locals, imo.

by alamedaman on Aug 5, 2008 4:25 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

oh, wait ... with not team at all ... that's true, I think ...

but I don’t think that’s really worth that much … it’s other negatives greatly outweigh it, though …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 5, 2008 1:22 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Possibly not, but...

...being in a single-team market could be the difference.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Aug 5, 2008 9:52 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

w/r/t your last sentence ...

... does it ever make sense from a public policy perspective for any city to subsidize a stadium?

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 5, 2008 9:42 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I used to think so, but not anymore.

My opinion now is that government should never finance stadiums and arenas. Anywhere, any time, for any team. Ever. If the team threatens to move… see ya.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Aug 5, 2008 9:51 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I disagree with this. I believe it is justified if the local community sees it as a

community consumption cost and wants to bear that cost. It’s extremely unlikely that the Cardinals would have left St Louis for Portland or Sacramento but the new stadia, both in 1966 and recently were popular initiatives with very little opposition. The Cardinals are probably the most important civic item in the eyes of most St Louisans. As a purely economic issue, UncleLeo is most probably right.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 9:58 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

community consumption -- feh

I think we should go with more of a potlatch approach to new stadia—Fremont should pay to build the ballpark and Selig Acres, and then burn it all down.

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 5, 2008 10:03 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It probably doesn't make sense from an economics perspective ...

obviously there are other factors that are hard to measure accurately …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 5, 2008 10:12 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree with your Cardinals example as to their status in the community, but...

...that’s exactly their economic incentive to build their own stadium and stay. They’re not going to get a better deal anywhere else, stadium or not.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Aug 5, 2008 10:27 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Most probably true, but the community leaders didn't see it that way.

The business community pushed very hard for the deals. Perhaps they had thoughts of fat contracts for their own businesses, but the general public put up almost no opposition.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 11:20 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

If the community sees it as a consumption cost,

it should purchase the team itself, THEN build the stadium—not hand out large sums of cash with no strings attached.

New York could OWN the Yankees with the amount of money they’ve spent building a new boondoggle stadium FOR the Yankees.

And before someone goes off on some libertarian rant, the (community owned, nonprofit) Green Bay Packers are one of the best run franchises in sports.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Aug 5, 2008 10:56 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

That's not true ...

the total price tag of the new Yankee Stadium, which is mostly being foot by the Yankees, is right around the value of the franchise.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 5, 2008 11:11 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't think the Cardinals are for sale to the public.

I doubt most people could use the tax benefits as profitably as the typical MLB owner does now. Of course if they repealed such benefits, I bet public ownership would take off, as in European football (I believe Americans call it “soccer”).

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 11:22 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

agree 100%

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 5, 2008 10:03 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Perhaps not ...

but other cities, like Fremont, have other advantages that would make subsidies less necessary.

Regardless, it makes especially little sense for Oakland.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 5, 2008 9:53 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

the Silicon Valley Athletics of Hillsborough, to play in Crosby Field at Selig Acres

Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 5, 2008 10:10 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No!!!! Not Crosby!!!!

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 11:23 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

{ cough }

Wrong Crosby.

This is the highest-known density of gorillas that's ever been found. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 5, 2008 11:31 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh OK. In that case....No!!!! Not Crosby!!!!

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 1:16 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

there was a study I recall

a few years ago that indicated that for the first 10 or so years, a new stadium/team is a good economic bounce. After that it trends out pretty neutral at best. So it means two things, a) it’s good to get a new team/stadium if you can get them fairly cheaply, i.e. they aren’t completely paid for by the city/population (ha ha), and b) if you’ve had a team for a long time and they start making big money demands, tread carefully.

Of course as has been pointed out above, there are more than strictly economic considerations.

by jdr on Aug 5, 2008 12:34 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Perhaps the Bay can't support

two “huge” teams, but it most likely can support two fairly large teams. Even with a bifurcated market, they would still control/split a very sizable region. They don’t necessarily have to be the largest when “viable” would do the trick. A split Bay market is still larger than a lot of other current regions.

The usual suspects appear to be inferior to a split bay in this case. As for the Giants fighting tooth and nail, I suspect that the Giants would make a fuss, but at the end of the day it would be their very own lodge that silences them. Nothing they could really do about that except cash the checks that are proffered. What MLB giveth, MLB can taketh. It’s not likely that 29 other owners would subvert their financial interest for the sake of the Giants.

The truth is that this is exactly what Selig is trying to accomplish by moving the A’s to Fremont. It’s a compromise concerning his true intentions, but it makes a conveinent end run around the Giants “rights” without provoking them into an un-necessary fight. If it falls through, then it’s another game entirely.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Aug 4, 2008 2:47 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Totally agree.

If MLB (as a larger entity) feels it is in their best interests to have the A’s in San Jose, it will happen, and there’s nothing the Giants will be able to do about it other than cash the compensation checks.

However, having said that, I’m doubtful that it will happen. Never say never, though.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Aug 4, 2008 9:17 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The Giants would fricking insane

I’m surprised everyone thinks the Giants would roll over. Say the A’s do move to San Jose. You’d have to expect that in 10 years or so, it would become firmly A’s territory and the Giants would more or less lose that revenue stream.

So we go from the Giants having San Francisco, the South Bay, and Marin County and the A’s with the East Bay and some negligible slice of the North Bay to the A’s having the East Bay (all the fans left over), the South Bay, the wealthy southern part of the Peninsula, and whatever of the North Bay. The Giants are now boxed in with San Francisco, Marin, and the north not-so-nice part of the Peninsula. More importantly, all the advertising dollars that were coming out of corporate San Jose are now going to the A’s. That’s huge. They will fight this to the death and given that other teams don’t ever want their territorial rights ceded (let’s put a team in Brooklyn! Fort Worth! All that empty space in New England!) I’m inclined to think MLB would go with them. COULD they force the Giants? I’m not sure. Legally I don’t know to what degree teams own their territorial rights. WOULD they ever force them? Different question.

by jdr on Aug 5, 2008 1:08 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Mostly good points

Except for that under the CBA, teams cannot sue each other or MLB. That makes Selig the supreme arbiter in the end. Should he build consensus in a particular direction, the Giants won’t be able to do much about it.

The Giants have been sucking away East Bay and North Bay fans since the new park opened. The A’s have already been suffering as a result. That trend would continue if a ballpark were built in SJ.

by vertig0 on Aug 5, 2008 1:15 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's a team in Brooklyn in the next 20 years.

Ft Worth I don’t know about.

[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo

by WaddellCanseco on Aug 5, 2008 1:23 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I didn't say they'd roll over...

...in fact, they’d throiw a HUGE fit about it. What I meant was that, if MLB were determined to allow it, they’d have no say in the matter.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver

by UncleLeo on Aug 5, 2008 6:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Great post

from the Fremont perspective. I don’t blame Wolf for the playoff failures (they actually won a round) or the decision to rebuild. My guess is that Wolf’s net worth got hammered in this real estate crisis.

You are 100% correct that this project is DOA at this point, From a macro perspective this has grave implications on the A’s financial picture the next 5 years. The people who believe the franchise are swimming in the money because they cut payroll this year are misguided. The A’s are in no man’s land at this point as you correctly stated that a stadium backup plan does not seem to exist. The A’s will rely on revenue sharing subsidies and the windfall from MLB.Com to hopefully break even. The A’s revenue sharing income should go down drastically as the Yanks & Mets get a depreciation deduction for their new stadiums starting in 2009. I don’t see them being players in the free agent market until they show signs of being a 90 win team. I also smell a Marlins type tear down under the guise of rebuilding. The good news is that at least are pumping up their minor league draft and international budgets.

by DKNJ on Aug 4, 2008 12:20 PM PDT   0 recs

Bravo

John Fisher – #317 on Forbes, #99999 in our hearts.

by southofcruiseamerica on Aug 4, 2008 12:37 PM PDT   0 recs