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Scouting the Young Fielders

Wait, what?  This is "Staturday," not "Wednescout."  Even if you hate Staturdays, you can skip the text and go to the second-to-last paragraph, which contains an important link that I know you'll want to click.

Let me tell you a little something about defensive stats: when it comes to evaluating a player's contributions, they're shaky. You might have already known that.  But the dirty little secret about defensive stats is this: when it comes to judging what a fielder's true fielding skill is, they're almost worthless.  Well, worthless is an exaggeration.  But we have to be very careful when coming to a conclusion about a how good a defender a fielder is. 

And it has nothing to do with how good the defensive metrics we use are.  Why? Regression to the mean.

If you're too lazy to re-read my primer on regression, then I'll give you the Cliff's Notes version: we must always regress to the mean when figuring true player skills, and the amount we regress is based on 1) how much performance data we have and 2) what the spread in skills are among the general MLB population.  This is independent of how good the defensive metric we are using is.

Let's start with the first issue: how much performance data we have for defense.  A full-time shortstop might have 500 opportunties to field a ball in any given year.  A centerfielder might have 400.  Every other fielder will see fewer than that.  Those numbers are smaller than the number of PAs a player gets in a full season.

The difference between the best and worst hitters, over the course of a full season, is something like 100 runs - think Albert Pujols versus Tony Pena.  Imperfect as our defensive metrics are, they give us a pretty decent idea of how many runs the best and worst fielders are worth over the course of a full season.  A guy like Mark Ellis might save 20 runs on defense, and a guy like Manny Ramirez might cost 20 runs.  Let's tack on five runs on either end to get 50, a nice, round number.  The spread in fielding skill is, generally speaking, about half of much as the spread in hitting skill.

So, to recap: smaller sample size than hitting, smaller spread in talent - ergo, more regression to the mean.  Even if you had the perfect defensive metric.

And that's why we need scouts.  But here's the other dirty little secret: you, too, can be a scout.  Why not?  You watch lots of baseball.  So do I.  And if we put our opinions together, we might start getting there.  Two sets of eyes are better than one.  And a thousand sets of eyes are better than two.

And that's what the Fan Scouting Report is all about.  Every year, Tom Tango asks thousands of fun to give their scouting reports by rating fielders in a variety of categories.  Says Tom:

What I would like to do now is tap that pool of talent. I want you to tell me what your eyes see. I want you to tell me how good or bad a fielder is. Go down, and start selecting the team(s) that you watch all the time. For any player that you've seen play in at least 10 games in 2008, I want you to judge his performance in 7 specific fielding categories.

And best of all, for you statophobes:

And, most importantly, do not, absolutely do not, look at any numbers. Don't look at his fielding percentage, range factor, zone rating, UZR, or anything else that someone else is telling you. I just want you to rely on your eyes. You are the scout. I need you to rely completely on your own observations.

Tom's been doing this every year for about five years now, so we're starting to get good historical data.  But if you look at the number of ballots cast for each player, you'll find that the Red Sox and Mariners players get tons of evaluations, and the A's players very few. 

That's embarrassing to me, and it should be to you, considering that we have a group of knowledgeable and dedicated fans right here on AN.  So what are you waiting for?  Submit your evaluations of the A's fielders.  Think Mark Ellis is criminally underrated?  Can't stand to see Jack Cust commune with his glove?  Then say so!

But this is important: be honest in your evaluations.  This isn't a ballot-stuffing contest.  We're not trying to beat Blue-Grey Sky.  This is an attempt to use the collective knowledge of the best-informed baseball fans our there to help us identify fielding skill.

Star-divide

One more thing, speaking of fielding.

Remember this?

Q2qo3xds_medium

via mlb.mlb.com

F--- you, injuries.  You took my favorite player from me.

 

 

0 recs  |  Comment 12 comments

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The ending

it makes me sad. :(

by chri5 on Aug 23, 2008 8:31 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

This is a noble effort AN

Please help Tom Tango and represent the A’s faithfully. Sal is a great man and a wonderful human being for bringing this link to AN.

If only he wasn’t so short.

The monster at the end of this blog.

by grover on Aug 23, 2008 10:01 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

geeez.

“We’re not trying to beat Blue-Grey Sky.”

This had to be three years ago now.

"The hard... is what makes it great."

by Jjjsixsix on Aug 23, 2008 10:13 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

This could be a dumb question

But with regards to sample size and fielding – I know this is sometimes an issue – but what I’m wondering is if 500 chances to field a ball is equal to 500 plate appearances. Is one fielding chance = to 1 plate appearances when it comes to determining true talent? Obviously, in any case the more samples the better. But something in my brain is telling me it’s logical that more hitting opportunities are needed to determine how good you really are because a lot more luck/other non-talent factors come into play than when fielding a ball. Am I way off base here?

This isn’t to say the overall point salb is making isn’t true to some extent. I just think we can pretty well determine how good a guy is defensively based on, say, 250-300 chances at a position. That’s not true for a hitter.

by thejd44 on Aug 23, 2008 10:17 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Not a dumb question.

Hitting stats are altered by things that fielding stats probably aren’t, like righty/lefty splits.

by VORP is too nerdy on Aug 23, 2008 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

To clarify...

How many PA’s does a full-time hitter typically get against LHP a year? Between 150-200, yes? Usually, we use this as a gauge of whether or not they were effective against LHP.

by VORP is too nerdy on Aug 23, 2008 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, in addition to splits

With the exception of somebody else making an error on a play you’re involved in, are there any other things that can really happen to skew the numbers much (other than a ridiculous amount of hard/easy plays, but the better metrics can account for this to an extent)? As a hitter you can theoretically hit line drives directly at fielders 100% of the time and bat .000. But you’re hitting tons of line drives and are just the unluckiest person ever. Now, obviously, this is an unrealistic extreme example of how luck and non-talent factors play into hitting, but I can’t think of very much that would happen defensively that mirrors this. All those types of things (weather, hard hit balls, tricky hops, etc.) are all things that a great fielder can compensate for most of the time anyway. It’s hard to be an unlucky or lucky fielder over the course of a season.

by thejd44 on Aug 23, 2008 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not a statistical mind, so take this with a grain of salt

but the spread in hitting outcomes is much, much wider than the spread in fielding outcomes. Think about fielding percentage— most guys have a fielding percentage of .950 to .970. Sub-.900 is a historically bad season error-wise.

The spread among hitters, where some might get on base 50% more often or hit twice as many total bases as others, is much broader.

Narrower spread of skills means it’s going to take longer to tease out the real info from the noise when it comes to fielding. I think.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Aug 25, 2008 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, Chavy.

That pic reminds me of the commercial from a few years ago when Chavy was trying to field grounders with his gold glove…. clank, clank, clank. Awesome.

by whiteshoes40 on Aug 23, 2008 11:54 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

One of my favorites.

Chavy: “Darn Gold Glove.”
Huddy: “Okay, it was funny. ONCE.”

Interweaving, diverse, not to say conflictive emphases and a broad spectrum of items to form a dynamic exchange of parallel and self-eclipsing spatial and temporal zones.

by Poppy on Aug 23, 2008 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

One thing I notice about Tango's survey

is that it doesn’t seem to work for catchers.

Here are the categories that you can rate:

From pitcher to crack of bat
Reaction/instincts

From ball in flight to fielder reaching ball
Acceleration/first few steps
Velocity/sprint speed
Hands/catching

Throwing to other fielders
Release/footwork
Throwing strength
Throwing accuracy

Say, for instance, you wanted to report that your team’s catcher never blocks the plate, preferring to catch the ball way in front of the plate and then sweep-tag the runner. Where would you mark that hypothetical catcher down?

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Aug 23, 2008 5:25 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Isn't there a column for "grittiness"?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Aug 23, 2008 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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