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The 2008 Strike Zone, DOA

I sit a couple rows behind the plate, dead center.  Been there for a lot o' years.

It was obvious to me that the strike zone was generally wider this year.

The A's specialize in hitters who, other than CarGon do not swing at "bad" pitches.   The big problem this year was to a significant degree, a lack of adjustment to this expanded strike zone.  Especially when batting with with two strikes.  Their approach just does not appear to change in situation hitting. 

Or it could be that the hitters just lack the talent to hit more aggressively and tactically.

I know that some players will tell you they would rather strike out than change their mental approach to the zone. at any time,  Perhaps that is no longer a good tactic.

Competitive strategy is a process of exploiting change in environments with effective tactics .

Coaching adjustment with two strikes and approach to a wider zone needs to start early in the farm system.  Also, bunting and opposite field hitting, doh.  Lets get to work.

Go A's.

 

 

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My feeling? "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" -

But if it’s broken, ya just might wanna try something else.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Aug 22, 2008 6:22 PM PDT reply actions  

I agree with you...

that is why I don’t like Jack Cust, yeah he walks all the time but he strikes out too much. Yeah I’m going to get a response from some dude to this with a million stats and calculations and I don’t care about them. When we’re in those type of situations I prefer a guy who can make contact.

by mattman on Aug 22, 2008 6:34 PM PDT reply actions  

i was going to be "that guy"

but i’m so over commenting about why cust is a better player than david eckstein

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Aug 22, 2008 8:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Fixing the second sentence

“Yeah I’m [wrong] … and I don’t care”

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 22, 2008 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

He's wrong?

Perhaps. Or, perhaps not.

WIth 2 strikes, Cust in 2008 has an OPS of 552. League average is 547. Basically average. Granted, park effects need to be considered. But, consider that league average includes every hitter.

Or let’s look at tOPS+ of Cust and MLB in 2 strikes situations. Cust’s tOPS+ in 2 strikes situations is 36. Which means that in 2 strikes situations, Cust’s park adjusted OPS is 36 percent of his overall OPS. MLB average tOPS+ in 2 strikes situations is 48.

What of 2007? In 2007, Cust’s OPS in 2 strikes situations was 589, tOPS+ of 31. MLB average 556 and 48.

Cust is acceptable in 2 strike situations, but he does seem to struggle more, relative to his overall level, compared to other hitters.

Let’s compare the A’s, a team known for a patient approach, with the Twins, a team known as a hacktastic team, and how each team does in 2 strikes situations.

In 2008, the A’s tOPS+ with 2 strikes is 39. That means with 2 strikes the A’s OPS is 39 percent of their overall OPS.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 23, 2008 4:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

Uggh. Ignore the last 2 paragraphs. Forgot to remove them.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 23, 2008 4:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

Just some comparisons

Ichiro Suzuki, has a career OPS of 620 in 2 strike situations, a tOPS+ of 54. David Eckstein, 594, 67. Vlad Guerrero, 674, 42. Joe Mauer, 693, 61.

Cust, 543, 30.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 23, 2008 4:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

So if you cherry-pick a small sample where we know Cust will perform poorly

Cust performs roughly MLB average?

Cust strikes out a lot. All of Cust’s strikeouts come with 2 strikes. As a result, selecting for at-bats where he already has two strikes selects out many of his positive outcomes and none of his biggest weakness.

My point is that mattman’s post goes “I don’t like Jack Cust. The stats say he’s good, but I say he sucks” which is a shame.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 23, 2008 6:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well, part of it is how often he strikes out once he reaches 2 strikes compared to everyone else.

That is a legitimate conversation that can be had.

In other words, how well does he protect the plate once he gets to that point in the count? Not very well.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 23, 2008 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Cherry pick?

Obviously hitting with 2 strikes isn’t the only offensive skill. I said NOTHING of the sort.

The original poster referred to hitting with 2 strikes. Since mattman referred to “those type of situations”, I’m assuming that he’s referring to hitting with 2 strikes.

“Cust strikes out a lot. All of Cust’s strikeouts come with 2 strikes. As a result, selecting for at-bats where he already has two strikes selects out many of his positive outcomes and none of his biggest weakness.”

Sure. And nothing in my posts was about Cust overall ability as an offensive player. It’s about Cust’s offensive ability with 2 strikes.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 23, 2008 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

The last time this conversation happened, the topic was RSIP <2 ...

and the merits of putting the ball in play …

http://www.athleticsnation.com/2008/8/19/597274/next-year-s-lineup#8218668

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 23, 2008 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

statistical noise gets larger as sample size shrinks

And additional thing to think about – does Cust’s patience get him INTO the 2 strike count more than average?

(Not calling you out for cherry-pick’n, just noting the statistical effects.)

by MobiusKlein on Aug 24, 2008 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

Nobody thinks strikeouts are good

strikeouts are definately bad. The issue is weather it’s worth putting up with a certain number of strikeouts for the power and OBP.

by MrIncognito on Aug 22, 2008 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Highs in the 50s, lows in the upper 30s?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Aug 22, 2008 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ties in with a theory of mine

that could be wrong. Just a theory.

Prior to Moneyball (not the actual concept but the OBP idea contained within) and the rise of statistical evaluations, people like Jack Hannahan would never have survived a season in the major leagues, and people like Jack Cust would have been marginal, and Daric Barton would certainly have gone back to AAA. But new analyses changed that, proving the value of patience.

I wonder though, if patience and a good eye is a real drawback if too encouraged, because it keeps players from learning how to hit borderline pitches. If a pitch is borderline, and the player’s eye is keen, he won’t swing. He won’t bother figuring out a way to hit that pitch. And therefore - and this is how this diary ties in - teams can throw on the corners all day, and these kinds of players will frequently strike out. The thing is, not only will they get called strikes on borderline pitches, but they won’t have learned how to hit borderline pitches, so they’ll swing and miss whenever they don’t take those pitches.

In fact, if my theory is correct, any pitching staff facing a team like this can nibble all day, a la Greg Smith, and wind up giving up a few extra walks, true, but also striking out a lot of batters and winning a lot of games. Because nobody on the team is a bad ball hitter. Nobody knows how to hit pitches that nibble, pitches that are slightly out of the strike zone, anything like that. Because they never swing at those pitches. So if you enlarge the strike zone slightly, the team goes belly up. Or if the pitcher plays the nibble game, the team goes belly up. No reason to challenge anyone, no reason to try to fool anyone. Just nibble at the corners. Maybe that’s why so many bad pitchers look good against the A’s.

This is just a theory, and I would gather someone would shoot it down at some point, but it has had me thinking. It’s possible, of course, that the reason this team sucks right now is because the hitters actually do suck.

by richwol1 on Aug 22, 2008 10:45 PM PDT reply actions  

Oh these hitters suck

Cust, Suzuki, Sweeney, CarGon, and Ellis are about the only ones providing anything like adequate production for their positions.

Hannahan is garbage, Crosby is close, Barton is all-future no-now (which is fine, just not for this year)

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 23, 2008 6:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

That's an interesting theory ...

I’ll see if I can test it for you …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 23, 2008 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thats my main problem with Cust...

I understand all these people who are in love with him…but at the same time I hate when I watch Cust strike out looking on a borderline pitch. I don’t understand how he can continue to do this time after time.

by mattman on Aug 23, 2008 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

I can understand your frustration.

Admittedly, I feel the same way on occasion. However, to be fair to Cust, he knows what pitches he can handle and the ones he can’t. It doesn’t suit our purposes for him to roll over on a pitch he knows he can’t do anything with and ground into a dp.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Aug 23, 2008 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Because that is also what makes him a decent offensive player?

Wishing that Cust would strike out less and put the ball in play more, is like wishing that Ichiro would hit more homeruns, walk more.

Sure, it MIGHT be possible; it is also possible that doing so would detract from the good parts of his approach.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 23, 2008 11:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

The real problem is...

Cust bats in the 3, 4 or 5 spots nearly all the time. A player hitting in those spots is there to drive in runs, not walk all of the time. It is no coincidence that Cust spent so much time in the minor leagues. That is exactly where he would be with just about any other organization except the A’s. Fortunately for him, there are no real legitimate, middle of the lineup, run producing hitters to take his place. You can look at all the stats that you want…here is the only one I want to know – what is the A’s record over the past two seasons with Cust hitting in the 3, 4 or 5 spot in the lineup. His job is to drive in/produce runs, not walk with a runner on second and two outs!

by Keystone State on Aug 25, 2008 7:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not so sure

“Prior to Moneyball (not the actual concept but the OBP idea contained within) and the rise of statistical evaluations, people like Jack Hannahan would never have survived a season in the major leagues…”

How about Wayne Gross? They’re not entirely alike but they’re both low BA third baseman who could draw a few walks and hit an occasional homer. Gross was a little better with the bat and Hannahan better with the glove but they’re not too far apart overall. If Hannahan were there instead of Gross in 1977-1983, I think he would have been the starter for at least a few of those seasons. I doubt the likes of Taylor Duncan, Mickey Klutts, or Dave McKay would have beaten him out for the job. Also, we should keep in mind that Hannahan wasn’t obtained to be the starting third baseman. He’s starting only because of injury. Backup third basemen a lot worse than Jack Hannahan were pressed into full-time service in the pre-stathead days.

Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!

by Monday Fan on Aug 24, 2008 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wayne Gross was an excellent pitcher,

and he stole home twice – proving that he had terrific speed . He was only denied entry to the Hall of Fame because he didn’t have a proper ticket and argued about the admission price.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Aug 24, 2008 7:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Good example, but I'm not sure about it

I think one can argue that a player’s first full year often sets the bar for how they’ll be perceived, particularly if power is involved, and Gross had some good power his first year. To compare (and here I’ll use the projection by ESPN) since both Hannahan & Cust are in their first full years.

Wayne Gross, 485 AB, 22 HR, 63 RBI, .233 AVG , .352 OBP .416 SLG .768 OPS

Jack Hannahan 467 AB 9 HR 49 RBI .225 AVG .309 OBP .347 SLG .656 OPS

Now let’s look at Jack Cust in this, his first full year, projected out:

Jack Cust 483 AB 28 HR 70 RBI .232 BA .378 .OBP 437 SLG .814 OPS

Cust is clearly a better hitter than Gross, Hannahan clearly a lot worse. I think, though, that the comparison with Cust is a better one because Gross was a decent third baseman and Cust is mostly a DH who can play some outfield. Gross was considered more or less marginal at the time - as I think Cust might have been had statistical evaluation remained as primitive as it was back in 1977.

If we look at Wayne Gross’s ability to play third base, and his first full year stats, it’s pretty obvious that if current evaluations were used in 1977, Gross would be considered an average player because of the combination of his power, his OPS and his ability to play third base, rather than well below average, which he was considered back in 1977.

by richwol1 on Aug 24, 2008 11:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

One question:

Is Jack Hannahan having a poor season (by his own standard) or does 2008 represent his true ability? I think he’s a better player than he’s showing this year but not as good as he was last year (in brief duty). I believe if he were on the A’s in 1977-1983 instead of Wayne Gross, he would have been the starter or at least the left-handed side of a platoon (as Gross was during part of that period) considering the alternatives.

I doubt very much that Hannahan owes his playing time in 2008 to the rise of advanced statistical analysis. He’s playing this much because he’s a moderately talented player subbing for an injured starter on a bad team. If the A’s were competing for the playoffs with Hannahan playing below expectations for so long, he would have been replaced by now.

Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!

by Monday Fan on Aug 25, 2008 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

I've read enough posts from others...

…to say there are folks that think he’s playing up to his true ability.

As for the rest - Billy Beane picked him out of the scrap heap when everyone else had given up on him. Without advanced statistical analysis, would that have happened? I guess you’d have to ask Billy Beane.

by richwol1 on Aug 25, 2008 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not true

You’re suggesting that Hannahan was a free agent any team could have signed. This wasn’t the case. Beane traded Jason Perry to the Tigers to obtain him. Everyone else hadn’t given up on him — only the Tigers.

Root for the Giants? Not even if they're playing al-Qaeda!

by Monday Fan on Aug 30, 2008 8:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

although I have been in Nico's...

“human error strike zone is part of the game” camp… the Ump Ego Factor is starting to sway me toward PT’s electronic strike zone camp. I’m really sick of batters with good eyes getting jobbed by these assholes. “Jobbed”… there is an expression that givea away my age. Seriously, though, the fuckin’ strike zone is a rule. Umpires are hired to enforce the rules. They don’t. They regularly give special zones to guys like Jeter and regularly fuck guys like Cust who know the zone better than they do.

Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 23, 2008 12:24 AM PDT reply actions  

there is no doubt...

Cust could foul off many more pitches that are an inch off the plate. I am as frustrated as any A’s fan watching him take a called third strike on what 90% of MLBer’s would have swung at… not, of course, it was a strike, but because they realize you have to protect in that situation. Cuz the Ump is going to ring your ass up, if it is an inch off the plate, Jack!

But, that is, again, why I am swaying toward PT’s camp on this issue. Becasue they don’t call the proper strike zone. And, they should.

Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 23, 2008 1:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm all for more accountabilty with umps,

just not replacing them with electronic perfectos. Train and monitor the umps better, yes!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Aug 23, 2008 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly!!!

The umpires should have to answer for their performance. If players routinely get sent down to the farm for inferior performance, the umps should too. As sorry as Ques-Tec turned out to be, the technology exists and is sound. MLB should find a suitable replacement.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Aug 23, 2008 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

You're implying that umpires are inconsistent...

which I definitely agree with. So that even frustrates me further that Cust continues to strike out looking, when surely he knows this as well.

by mattman on Aug 23, 2008 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Jack Cust battling a pitcher...

= taking as many pitches as you can until you strike out.

by mattman on Aug 23, 2008 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

My problem with PT's electronic strikezone is that

By MLB’s pitchFX numbers (and 74mk’s analysis of them) the best umpires in baseball “miss” 15% of the calls – the worst are around 20%. Everyone would be up in arms if that many pitches suddenly resulted in different outcomes.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 23, 2008 6:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

It would be an adjustment, yes...

but that’s not a very good argument. It would have a radical short-term effect on the game, but that effect would be somewhat unpredictable, and players would adjust (I believe) within a couple of seasons.

The cost of continuing with the status quo is less than the cost of switching in the short term but much greater in the long term. It’s like the QWERTY keyboard.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Aug 25, 2008 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't care what you say .... I'm not learning dvorak!!!!!

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 25, 2008 7:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Speaking of PT....

where did he go?

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Aug 23, 2008 10:42 AM PDT reply actions  

The 2 popular stories are

first week of law school and avoiding olympic spoilers.

"Camelot sure fell apart, didn't it?"-Steve McCatty

by 5Aces on Aug 23, 2008 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

I prefer the first one....

at least if his absence is caused by law school, I can rest content knowing that he is suffering mightily.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Aug 23, 2008 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

So your a Twins fan now?

"Not in your wildest alcoholic nightmare would you ever imagine such events unfolding!" Bill King

by Buck Turgidson on Aug 24, 2008 12:21 PM PDT reply actions  

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