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Our Smith Is Better Than Theirs: A's Win Battle of AL West Worst

Oakland_tiny by Blez on

Well the A's Smith was better than the Mariners Smith tonight, even though Rowand-Smith has that extra name thrown in.  Greg Smith didn't nibble as much tonight.  Or maybe he did, but he wasn't facing a lineup that you can call "patient" or even "good".  It was the matchup of bottom dwelling AL West teams and even though I'd love for the A's to move up more in the draft, I still find myself rooting hard for this team to win. 

And for as much hate as Emil Brown has received on AN, often rightfully so, to be fair to him, I don't think the A's brought him in with the idea that he was going to be a full-time player this season.  I think Beane signed him with the idea that he would be a player to face left-handed pitching and spell some of the A's younger guys like Travis Buck when facing a tough lefty.  Yet, Brown has played in 104 games this year thanks to the A's new record of times they've used the DL.  Yes, AN, believe it.  Oakland has now used the DL a whopping 23 times this year.  I really didn't think it was possible for the team to top 2007, especially with the infusion of young talent.  Still, it's happened.  Pound a shot of whiskey tonight to dull the pain.  And hopefully the A's realize that they need to re-re-examine the medical procedures this offseason.  I mean once again this team has hit the DL more often than they've hit the baseball in 2008.

Brown hit the home run in the crucial sixth inning, where I think the game turned.  The A's had the 1-0 lead and Ichiro led off the bottom of that inning with a double.  Cairo then bunt popped out and Carlos Gonzalez made a very nice running catch on a shot by Raul Ibanez to deep center field.  I would hope that Smith learns that he can trust his defense enough to be willing to be, forgive me Barry Zito, FITZy.  You know, a little more fearless in the zone. 

Course, after I say that, then Jack Hannahan opens the door for Seattle in the ninth.  Yet I just knew that Ziggy was going to slam the door shut as soon as Betancourt came up to bat.  It's just what Ziggy does.  Especially to right-handed batters.

It's tough to read anything off a Smith start against the Mariners, but I do want to see him get back to being aggressive.  Tonight was a good start.

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It is great to get a win...

especially this time of year when your the A’s. We were pitching our ace tonight I guess it was only justice that we win this game.

by mattman on Aug 21, 2008 10:13 PM PDT   0 recs

Oh Lode!

Not a record you want to own up to.

by lynnzgal on Aug 21, 2008 10:13 PM PDT   0 recs

Hey, look!

There’s another team that sucks even more than we do!

"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk

by iglew on Aug 21, 2008 10:22 PM PDT   0 recs

Seattle is a mess!

No direction, no farm system. Yuck!

by A'sfansince1970 on Aug 21, 2008 10:29 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

At least they have hope...

now that Bavasi has left.

"All your baserunner are belong to Greg Smith" ~ walk off bunt

by Philip Christy on Aug 21, 2008 11:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

We would have hope if Beane left.

I don’t mean to be a downer here but Beane has worn out his welcome in Oakland as far as I’m concerned.

The greatest farm system in the world (which we don’t have) isn’t enough to put a Major League team in world Series contention without balancing the team out with a couple of proven veteran stars. Beane has never shown the ability (or willingness) to make the two or three necessary veteran player transactions together to get that team.

Developing players is fantastic if you keep them and then go out and get the proper veteran players to put you over the top. I’m not only disgusted with the offense but now our starting pitching staff is years (and major transactions) away as well.

by jdub69 on Aug 22, 2008 12:18 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't think our pitching staff is years away, at all...

Our pitching staff will be top third next year. And, prolly #1 in 2010. The lack of power hitters to develop is somewhat troubling, but we weren’t the Rays or Marlins the last few years… so, we didn’t get the draft picks they did.

But, you are correct. Billy is not willing to throw money against the wall and see if it sticks, like Arte is willing to do. They’re in a bigger market. We’re always going to be the little sister unless somebody like Charlie O comes along. He was cheap, but he was smart.

Oh, and I’m waiting so impatiently for Blez’s interview with Wolff to find out if he confirms my rumor that he’s on the way out.

Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 22, 2008 12:33 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I doubt that but...

I am also looking forward to the interview by blez.

by mattman on Aug 22, 2008 12:35 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

of course, he won't confirm it in so many words...

but, we’ve got a lot of “read-between-the-liners” on AN who will tell us what he’s really saying.

Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 22, 2008 12:38 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Hoping for Draft picks in baseball is ridiculous.

Fielding a horrible team to get a “Draft Pick” is not worth the tradeoff. It makes a big difference in basketball and football to get a number 1 draft pick. Not so much in baseball.

Tory Hunter will “stick”. The A’s should go and get someone of his caliber.

Unless Wolff shows some balls and spends some money, AND KEEPS THE TEAM IN OAKLAND, I hope he is on the way out.

by jdub69 on Aug 22, 2008 12:51 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

draft picks and trades for veterans rule...

ask the Rays and Marlins.

Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 22, 2008 12:54 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Steinhemorrhage is spending lots of money this year...

and, going to the same place we are… third place in their division (if they’re lucky).

Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 22, 2008 12:58 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Agreed on Charlie O...

That dude could always go and get a great veteran player. But it’s a HUGE stretch to think that our pitching will be in the top third next year and #1 in 2010 (in my humble opinion).

by jdub69 on Aug 22, 2008 1:01 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

well, that's the plan, apparently...

Billy has stockpiled young pitchers (who are supposedly good) at an alarming rate. I share your skepticism about prospects… well, because that’s all they are. Maybe Daric Barton will pan out, maybe he won’t. But, Billy has a lot of pitching prospects to try out.

So, we’ll see.

Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 22, 2008 1:11 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

the rest of this year and 2009 are going to be painful...

for A’s fans, regardless of what Beane does. So, resolve yourself to the pain… because it’s going to come.

Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 22, 2008 1:19 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

if by "bold moves" you mean...

trading the pitching prospects for hitters, I doubt that happens. He thinks he can pick up a Scott Hatteberg or Frank Thomas here or there who can contribute to an otherwise mediocre offense. And, with the pitching he’s hoping to have… that’ll be enough.

Don’t look for the Bash Brothers or Tejada, Giambi and Tejada in their primes on this team for any years in the near future on this team. Beane thinks he can win with pitching, defense and a decent offense.

Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 22, 2008 1:29 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

ooops...

Tejada, Giambi and Chavez…

Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 22, 2008 1:30 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't see a decent offense in the near future...

with that I would have to agree. And, no doubt, Beane missed some opportunities like Hamilton and Quentin, who a “genius” would have hopped on. Because, they were available, good, and relatively cheap.

Maybe he tried for both and failed. Maybe Blez will ask him next interview.

Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 22, 2008 1:39 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

He's a multi-millionaire, or billionaire, or whatever...

He has money to spend (and, in turn, make) or he shouldn’t own a big league team. He should’ve bought a semi-pro team if he didn’t want to play with the big boys.

by jdub69 on Aug 22, 2008 12:43 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

there are very few owners (if any)...

who are going to run their teams at a net operating loss. They don’t have to and they won’t, regardless of their individual wealth.

It ain’t gonna happen, so quit with “he’s a multi-millionaire” stuff. It doesn’t matter.

Foolsh, the most insane regular poster on AN since oaktoon left - salb

by FoolshGame22 on Aug 22, 2008 12:52 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You have no idea what you're talking about

I come to that conclusion after reading your last ten or so comments on this.

Money IS being put into the team, just not how YOU want it to be.

Things aren’t going to be fixed in one season. If you can’t grasp that, then maybe you’re the one who should stop following the team until they’re better again.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 22, 2008 7:12 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

+1

The money is going towards the farm system, over slot bonuses, and international singings. This is the best place to put the dollars IMHO

Every day is just a little worse than the previous, that means every day is the worst day of my life.

by shooting4life on Aug 22, 2008 8:12 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It's all being set up that the team should be coming together as something good within...

…the next 2-3 years, tops.

I hate to try to sound like I’m an authority on this or what I say is right, but all the people who want the A’s to go out and get some big bat right now are missing the big picture.

It’s going to take more building to get to the goal of winning than what one or two bats that cost a lot will be able to accomplish alone. They are trying to set the foundation for this in the minors right now, a big reason why the team has traded for so many prospects instead of Major League ready talent. That’s how their minor league system has been rebuilt into a strength in less than one full year.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 22, 2008 8:17 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The constant "rebuilding" thing is tired and old.

R. Sweeney, C Gonzalez, and Suzuki have the ability to become great players and probably (hopefully) will. In Beane’s system he will trade them by the time they all reach the ripe old age of 26, just as they begin to reach their peak. In return he will get minor leaguers that may “help the team in the future”. It’s a perpetually losing system.

by jdub69 on Aug 22, 2008 10:17 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Not enough success.

Let’s, at least, get to the world series. We would if he would keep some players once in awhile.

by jdub69 on Aug 22, 2008 11:29 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Would you rather be Pittsburgh?

At least the A’s have had chances. That’s more than most teams in their situation can say.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 22, 2008 12:12 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No team will win the WS

When they use the DL 23 times. The 2006 team (and the 2000-2004 teams) had a real shot at the WS.

I’ll be concerned about “perpetually rebuilding” when there’s more than one team in a row.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 22, 2008 1:53 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

That also points to some changes needing to be made in conditioning and how players are used.

You can’t do much about sprains and broken bones, but I can’t believe there aren’t better ways for some of these guys to take care of themselves.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 22, 2008 2:06 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Well, there's last year and this year.

That’s two years in a row. Be very concerned.

by jdub69 on Aug 22, 2008 2:24 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No idea...

Uh huh, ok, I see your the protector of all things Billy Beane and you know exactly what you’re talking about.

Maybe things won’t be fixed in one season. I’d sure like to see him try. Things wouldn’t have to be fixed to such a monumental extent in one season if Beane didn’t trade away 3/5ths of the opening day starting rotation for nothing (well ok, we did get an injured rookie pitcher and Murton and Patterson who won’t fix anything for this team ever).

He could’ve kept those guys (Harden, Gaudin, Blanton) and ADDED some field players to improve the offense this year and next year etc. while we wait for the young guys to grow up.

by jdub69 on Aug 22, 2008 10:11 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No, I am not the protector of all things Billy Beane

I just think you’re full of something that smells.

What would your solution have been in keeping Harden, Gaudin and Blanton while adding good offense?

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 22, 2008 10:27 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'll make it real simple for you.

The result in keeping 2 proven quality pitchers (who are now contributing nicely to Winning teams) and one absolute stud (Harden) plus adding quality offensive position players would’ve racked up a whole lot more wins and could’ve most definately put us in wild card position. At the same time we would still be rebuilding for the future. The future and the present are not mutually exclusive (well now they are after the trades), they can co-exist. Beane needs to learn this.

by jdub69 on Aug 22, 2008 11:36 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Your question is not clear..

“What would your solution have been in keeping Harden, Gaudin and Blanton while adding good offense?”

Please re-state.

by jdub69 on Aug 22, 2008 1:29 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

And I'll toss you a cookie as well

If you go out and bring some better hitters in, who do you trade? Some of those pitching prospects in the system? They’re going to have to at some point but part of it is doing it at the right time.

At the moment, trading any of them too soon probably brings you a player who is only going to be here short-term. As poor as the offense has been this season, do you really think a couple hitters would’ve made that big a difference? I don’t. Any more than that and you’re probably looking at having to trade most of those pitching prospects.

Then, you’re looking at only a slightly higher chance of making the playoffs, let alone actually winning it all, and in the process you’ve lost many of those pitchers in the system.

Is that really worth it right now? I say no.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 22, 2008 12:19 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

cookie toss...

Here’s just an idea. We could have traded one of the starters (not all three), plus throw in a Cust, Brown, Barton, Crosby, some minor leaguer, or something creative there to get one or two quality hitters. Plus, maybe pick up a Bonds (as unpopular an idea that is).

Yes, a couple of hitters would have improved the team immensely to go along with the stronger staff that would’ve still been there. A wild card would not have been out of the question and who knows what’ll happen in the playoffs? Someone could get hot and carry the team thru it all.

No, I don’t want to trade the pitching prospects. Maybe one if we got a good hitter. Not looking to sell the farm here.

by jdub69 on Aug 22, 2008 1:40 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The players you mention don't hold a lot of value to other teams.

At least, that’s my belief. As it is, as much crap as Cust has taken here from me and others, he’d be a great fit lower in the order with some legit hitters here.

Brown? Again, you lose someone who, regardless of the criticism he’s received here, is one of the best on the team at driving in runs – for whatever that’s worth.

What value does Crosby have to others? Even Barton’s got a lot of question marks. I don’t see what the A’s have to deal with from a position of strength when it comes to sending position players at the Major League level out in exchange for quality hitters. I just don’t.

Even if you do bring in two quality hitters, the holes in the lineup are still huge. You’ve got Suzuki who’s doing well. Sweeney hits for a good average but he’s been dinged up all year long. Gonzalez is still learning how to be a Major League hitter. Their entire infield has hit like crap all year. How are a couple better hitters going to make the whole team good enough to be a contender? It’s going to take more than that.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 22, 2008 2:11 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You make valid points

but, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I think a stronger staff (which we had) and two really solid offensive position players would’ve put us in contention. After all, we were one Huston Street pitch from being 4 games back of the Angels at the all-star break. We could’ve run for the wild-card. Seems like a lifetime ago.

As far as value – the Dodgers got Manny for almost nothing. Point being it can be done – you can improve the present without forefeiting the future.

by jdub69 on Aug 22, 2008 2:36 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Now, here's the alternative

Trade from a position of strength: pitching. Get some prospects in return and draft well.

They haven’t drafted completely well in terms of shoring up the problems at 3B/SS but they’re trying some things there within the system. There are some good-looking young hitters on their way up the ladder that will have a chance to earn a spot.

Meanwhile, they sacrificed things completely by trading Harden, Blanton and to a lesser extent Gaudin in exchange for MORE prospects and young talent, reinforcing their system even further. We already mostly know what we have from the Haren/Swisher trades and the early returns on those deals are pretty favorable.

Now we have a situation where a few of these position players are most likely going to develop further and be of value to the team whether that means wearing an A’s uniform or not. Then, the team will be able to, if they choose, move some pitching AND hitting prospects for better players.

It’s a risk, but no greater risk than shipping some of these guys off now and going for broke. I don’t want to go for broke like Florida did twice only to return to last place after winning the World Series. I want a team that can be built back up into a consistent contender.

I think that’s what Beane is trying to do. Knowing how he operates, he’s not going to do it in what many think is the conventional way. He’s taking some chances that could succeed or fail, but he’s trying.

This is my interpretation of the plan I see within the organization. Agree with it or not, that’s up to you.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 22, 2008 2:16 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

fair enough

I disagree wholeheartedly with Beane’s approach

by jdub69 on Aug 22, 2008 2:29 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Do you like Sabean's? Because that's more or less the alternative.

Look at the money they’re paying Rowand. What difference is he really making on that team? All he’s doing is saving them from being even worse than they are now. They have a couple excellent starters, a few good hitters, one or two decent bullpen types, and the rest is crap with a minor league system that’s improving but still poor.

They’re going to be bad for a few years without much to hope for while the A’s are bad now with a good outlook for the near future.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 22, 2008 2:32 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No. They can't

A year ago we had a bunch of injured players, a couple real stars, and a bottom-third farm system.

We could patch with expensive players and try to sneak into a wild card until we lost our stars and suck for the forseeable future (see: Giants, SF) or we could trade those stars when they have a ton of value.

Now, we have no stars, a bunch of injured players, and one of the two best farm systems in baseball. I defy you to lay out a way to pass over 20 teams in the organizational rankings without giving up quality at the MLB level.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 22, 2008 1:57 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You have to give up quailty to get quality.

I point to the Kochman for Texiara deal as an example. You don’t have to give away 3/5ths of the pitching staff and get very little pitching and no offense in return now or in the future. Beane has left us with 5 rookie starters and a crappy offense for no good reason.

by jdub69 on Aug 22, 2008 2:41 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

If that's your analysis of those trades

I think this conversation is over. You’ve clearly proven you have no idea what you’re talking about.

In what universe is Cardenas (as ONE example) “no offense in return now or in the future”?

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 22, 2008 9:37 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

This universe.

You are clueless.

by jdub69 on Aug 22, 2008 11:51 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

We were going to loose either way...

are offense wasn’t good enough…all your plan would’ve done is just delay our rebuilding which would be stupid.

by mattman on Aug 22, 2008 10:28 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Not stupid

I’ll say it again. The future and the present are not mutually exclusive (well now they are after the trades), they can co-exist. Beane needs to learn this.

by jdub69 on Aug 22, 2008 11:37 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You need to accept that you're wrong.

Beane (almost alone amongst GMs) does understand how to rebuild.

If you don’t completely tear down you have a few mediocre (at best) years as you hang on, with no future in the pipes. If you do (like we have) you have a bleak year or two with a LOT of talent coming right afterwards.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 22, 2008 1:59 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't need to accept anything.

Definately no more wrong than Beane or, especially, you.

by jdub69 on Aug 22, 2008 2:43 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I am certainly no Beane apologist

He has done great in certain areas and horrible in others.

His track record in signing players long term is less than stellar. Esteban Loaiza, Eric Chavez etc.

Hailing how great Bobby Crosby was, as he has done for the last few years.

We know the “take walks and wait for the three run homer” philosophy does not work because of what we have on the field.

Only this year we are starting to see a little more aggressive style of play. Minnesota is a good example of speed and they have a few players like Mauer and Morneau who know how to hit above .220. They have a low payroll. Their GM is pretty good I would think.

My biggest complain about Beane is he has done nothing to improve the left side of the infield. He has not even drafted anyone in case Chavy was hurt (LOL) and has a SS that couldn’t hit his way out of a paper bag and who cannot throw to 1st to save himself.

I like and accept the rebuilding of the team and am excited about the young prospects we have.

I have alway been against trading Harden. With the way the payroll has been trimmed, 7 million next year is a drop in the bucket. People will say he would have gotten injured had he stayed. They may well be right considering the how every second player is DL bound on this team but I think he was worth the risk. Pitchers of his talent are obviously few and far between. Having said that, I am hoping Gallagher and co work out, it is way too early to judge that trade.

I certainly like what he got in the Blanton trade. If he had gotten a bag of popcorn, it would have been a win for the A’s on that one.

I hate unproductive outs and the A's are producing them at record production

by Trainman on Aug 22, 2008 10:43 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Nice post

I can accept everything you said here except that Blanton has been, and can still be, an effective pitcher when matched up against opposing number three or four starters. He’s not made to be a number 1 pitcher matching up against opposing number 1 pitchers. He’s worth a whole lot more than a bag of popcorn.

by jdub69 on Aug 22, 2008 11:40 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs