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Harden Trade Already A Failure

Tiny by jasonlbe on

With Harden clearly dominating and staying healthy, Gaudin also performing very well, and Gallagher and other performing nothing short of terribly this trade must be deamed a failure (and one that will most likely rank among the worst trades in Oakland A's history.) Hopefully, Donaldson will continue playing well in A ball and help salvage the trade a bit with Gallagher regaining something simlar to the first start he had with us, but that seems like a tall task at this point. This trade from the moment I first heard about it has me shaking my head and working very hard to keep myself from destroying things. This one may go down as the first HUGE mistake by Mr. Beane. Very hard to watch Harden go 7 inn, 2 HITS, with 10 K's. Letting that kind of talent go should never have been allowed to happen (and then throwing away Gaudin as well.) If anyone has any constructive comments to refute my assumption I am all for it, and would love to be proved wrong.

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Oy vey!

First off, trades cannot necessarily be judged in six weeks. It was a short-term move for the Cubs and a long-term move for the A’s. From the A’s perspecyive, it cannot be judged until some decent amount of time has passed… at least a couple years.

Second, what exactly in Harden’s history led you to believe that he was suddenly going to stay healthy? Even with his current run of health, I can’t help but remain skeptical.

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Aug 20, 2008 12:20 PM PDT   0 recs

Standard reply to diaries like this:

Judging a trade in the first few months is like judging a marriage on the honeymoon.

Every ‘star for prospects’ trade is going to look cap for the star-selling team in the first few months. But just wait until you get to ‘Mulder time’….

Bring back Zito, right? How’s Swisher looking? We lost Bobby Kielty? FIRE BEANE NOW!

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on Aug 20, 2008 6:37 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Sure they can

If I were a Cubs fan (not) I would call this an unqualified success after six weeks. They have not won it all since 1908 and are a better team with Harden on the mound. Are we better with Gallagher? From the A’s perspective it is a bit early to judge this deal but not from the Cubs. As I have posted elsewhere and been crucified for – it is the total of all the moves this year and the total lack (seemingly) of movement on the stadium that are the disaster of 2008.

Baja been here

by bajablue on Aug 21, 2008 1:57 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It's kinda like...

renting a house. It helps you immediately, so that’s why people have a tendency to judge these types of rent trades immediately when you cannot. I guess if your the cubs you can say it’s a success, but who knows harden could be done tomorrow or he could win the world series with them. For the A’s we don’t know yet and I think it is the right move for us to make at the time that it was made. We weren’t going anywhere soon so why not rebuild? Not trading Harden only delays our rebuilding process which is the only way we are going to get better.

by mattman on Aug 21, 2008 2:07 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

So far

There is no argument that the Cubs have done well. No one could have predicted Harden would be this good.

There is also no conceivable way to assess how well the A’s did. Maybe by the end of next year we’ll have a better sense, but right now we are WAY premature.

As far as baja’s point, the whole point was to tear down the 2008 team for guys that will anchor another run. Step one has been accomplished. We’ll see about step 2.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 21, 2008 2:14 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

good healthy

There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 21, 2008 4:06 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Beane himself would've predicted it

In his last AN interview, he mentioned Harden as one of three guys in the AL who could be unhittable. Beckett and Felix were the other two.

"Behind both goals were banners bearing the word 'Calamity' while another carried the warning: 'You will drown in the Bosphorous.'"--Threats made by Turkish soccer fans to the British from a match in 2003. Tribute to their miraculous run in Euro 2008.

RIP Tim Russert, quintessential Buffalonian.

by Cutthemullet on Aug 22, 2008 11:06 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

When healthy...

he will get hurt eventually it’s inevitable. But his K/9 in just of the charts this year.

by mattman on Aug 22, 2008 11:19 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Right

Harden went from “tired arm, AN groans every pitch” to “completely healthy and dominant” really fast.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 22, 2008 1:49 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Let's see what you say the next time Harden gets injured

It’s going to happen.

Nobody can prove you right or wrong yet, so what’s the point?

Saying “it’s a failure already” is just an attempt to stir the pot.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 20, 2008 12:20 PM PDT   0 recs

cubs were and are a lock for the playoffs

this trade is only a huge success if harden pitches and pitches well in the playoffs and they get far. a trade like this for the cubs is only successful if harden has the kind of impact to get them into the playoffs and get them far.

by stranahanahan on Aug 20, 2008 12:28 PM PDT   0 recs

Already?!

Dan Haren’s first two months in Oakland:
2-7, 4.35 ERA

Mark Mulder’s first two months in St. Louis:
7-2, 3.60 ERA

That trade must have been clearly deemed a failure, too, right? Not to mention another HUGE mistake by Mr. Beane.

by Eggman on Aug 20, 2008 12:28 PM PDT   0 recs

The problem is...

that neither of these guys are pitcing for the A’s any more, so who cares.

by Keystone State on Aug 20, 2008 12:35 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

How is that a problem?

Its a comparison of judging based on small sample size.

by jpl on Aug 20, 2008 12:49 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

That's not the point

The point is it takes a young pitcher 2 to 3 years before they really start to pitch to their potential.

Gallagher has #2 starter pitches, but he needs time to hone his skillz. Hell, I seem to remember Danny Haren giving up 9 or so runs a couple of games in ’06, the year before he became an ace and started the allstar game.

Sometimes life will strike you out on a curve ball and the only choice you have is to flip off the umpire and walk to first base anyway.

by Threepwood XX on Aug 20, 2008 2:15 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

agreed...

tim lincecum wasn’t exactly marvellous in his few starts. i’m not comparing lincecum to gallagher, but even the most talented guys require some time to adjust to the majors. forget about gallagher being 23 and traded to a team with a different inter-start philosophy.

by inbillywetrust on Aug 20, 2008 2:41 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

This one looked awful

from the beginning. Harden is a unique talent that can singlehandedly carry a rotation when healthy. There are less than ten guys like him in the sport. You deal with the headaches just at the chance he snaps off a season like this. Throwing in Gaudin was just stupid. Gallagher looks like he will have big problem in the AL while Murton & Patterson are fungible players. Donaldson may be interesting, but is a mile away.

The scary part here is that the A’s were probably hesitant to pick up Harden’s $7 million option and Gaudin was arb eligible. The A’s are not losing free agents anymore, but instead are moving all guys about to hit arbitration and middling pay days.

This deal will be a permanent blot on the Beane/Forst ledger.

by DKNJ on Aug 20, 2008 12:30 PM PDT   0 recs

Any time you have to add "...when healthy", you concede the point.

“Harden is a unique talent that can singlehandedly carry a rotation when healthy.”

There are less than ten guys like him in the sport... when healthy.

You deal with the headaches just at the chance he snaps off a season like this. .. when healthy.

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Aug 20, 2008 12:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Conceding the point or not

I’d much rather have kept Harden and gambled the $7M on him being healthy, as opposed to getting a guy who is going to struggle as a pitcher and 2 minor leaguers with outside shots at making the bigs.

by mikev on Aug 20, 2008 1:14 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No you don't

Pitching carries an inherent risk of injury. Gallagher is young and is not through his injury nexus either. Harden never had a catastrophic injury.

PT made a good point about Harden being worth the $7 million option even if he had only a 50% chance of being healthy (.5 * $20 million pitcher = $10 million in expected value). He is also a scarce resource that the A’s have no chance of getting on the open market (too much talent for their budget). Gallagher is a James Simmons type #4 if things break right…you can find these in every draft.

by DKNJ on Aug 20, 2008 1:20 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh, please, that makes no sense at all...

…at least if winning baseball games and the world series is your goal. A pitcher, no matter how great (when healthy) does not significantly help the team in that regard if he’s sitting on the bench half his starts.

Now, if you’re more concerned with making a spreadsheet balance out, you might be onto something. Spreadsheets don’t throw 90+ pitches every five days.

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Aug 20, 2008 2:31 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The more I think about your PT 'value' point...

…the less it makes sense. Unless I have totally misread PT’s intent on the subject of rebuilding, everything should be focused on 2010 and beyond, so if Harden’s is going to be gone after ‘09 anyway, why is it important that the ’value’ somehow balances out for the ’09 option? What would the team be gaining by spending the $7mil instead of getting the best return possible for 2010+?

Note- Presuming you are interprating PT correctly.

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Aug 20, 2008 2:48 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

PT

used different numbers, but it was the same principle.

It is not fair to just discount 2009. The A’s are in the entertainment business and another garbage year shouldn’t be acceptable.

The operative question is whether the A’s got a sufficient return on their assets of Harden & Gaudin. Harden is a rare talent who they had a fair option on going into 2009. This wasn’t a Sabbthia type scenario where their hand was forced. Gaudin could easily be a 4th or 5th starter in the big leagues. It is to be determined whether Gallagher can survive in the AL. PECOTA hated him and the scout opinion was more back end than front end.

by DKNJ on Aug 20, 2008 3:11 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I disagree

The A’s per se are not in the entertainment business — they’re in the cartel-enforced revenue-sharing business. The on-field entertainment value of the A’s has very little to do with their bottom line.

There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 20, 2008 4:16 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Check out how

attendance and winning percentage correlates. It is overwhelming when you exclude one time events like the opening of a new park. I wouldn’t run my business model based on taking subsidies. The subsidies could end with a new CBA deal or be reduced when the big payers like the Yanks and Mets start depreciating their new stadium.

You are correct that MLB is a cartel, but the A’s need to put a winning product on the field to bring in revenue. Gate Receipts, playoff revenue, concessions, parking, signage, local radio & local TV deals still represent a lot more of the gross revenue than hand outs from teh Central Fund.

by DKNJ on Aug 20, 2008 6:35 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The subsidies aren't ending ... if anything, they'll grow ...

I believe there are more teams that receive money than lose money through revenue sharing (because I believe the median is higher than the mean) so there’s never going to be a majority against it.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 20, 2008 7:55 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Except to the extent that people vote against their own interests

But that would never happen!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Aug 20, 2008 7:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I suspect the typical MLB owner is a little more focused on

and aware of their votes decisions on their bottom line than is the typical American.

Also, owners of teams like the Braves, Cardinals or Mariners, while they lose money through revenue sharing, have a strong interest in keeping the system in place, because it strengthens the value of their franchise by effectively guaranteeing a minimum income in a market that is not necessarily strong enough to guarantee it.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 20, 2008 8:24 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Revenue Sharing

allows a deduction for stadium depreciation. The Yanks & Mets each have $1 billion + stadiums coming on line during 2009. The revenue sharing pot will get a lot smaller once the NY super powers stop kicking in gobs of money.

I agree that there will always be revenue sharing, but it can be gamed to some extent. The major point though is that their are financial ramfications for the A’’s if they keep putting a garbage product on the field.

by DKNJ on Aug 21, 2008 8:43 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

That's true ...

though I have to imagine the impact of those new stadiums on the teams’ revenue will exceed its impacts on their costs. Also, if the new Yankee Stadium did not bring in a dime of new revenue, it would only impact each team’s revenue sharing take/spend by about $2m. (Assuming they finance 100% of the cost of the stadium — no public money, no private sponsorships, no money down, etc)

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 21, 2008 9:20 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

But, yes, revenue would increase based on success ...

But given the current stadium and TV/Radio situation, there’s a severe limit on how much it can increase and, thus, any spending increases would have to be very efficient to work out, dollar-wise.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 21, 2008 9:26 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Hi all

Been away for a while… and probably still won’t get back to “normal levels” until Monday (and school will probably take a bite out of those anyway)… but dropped by.

What I meant by that was not “Harden shouldn’t be traded,” just that picking up his option for next season was more or less a no-brainer unless he suffered catastrophic injury.

If the A’s did not look like they would compete next year and hadn’t traded Harden yet, the correct move would be to pick up the option and then deal him before the season started.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Aug 22, 2008 7:04 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

"Harden never had a catastrophic injury..."

…That he didn’t like.

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on Aug 20, 2008 6:40 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

He never missed a start

Except when he did.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 20, 2008 9:08 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Injuries

are NOT random variation.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 21, 2008 10:26 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Interesting stat

The Cubs have won 8 games that Rich Harden has started for them since being traded there…in that same span of time the A’s have won 9 games total as a team….fantastic!

by Keystone State on Aug 20, 2008 12:30 PM PDT   0 recs

Yes, but, for the most part...

…it hasn’t been the pitching that has cost the A’s so many wins. It’s been the offense. They didn’t trade away any position players, so technically the trade didn’t hurt them. Didn’t help, but didn’t hurt either.

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Aug 20, 2008 12:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It's the message that was sent....

we aren’t winning anything this year, it has had a huge psychological impact. Anybody, including players, who says it hasn’t is in denial.

by Keystone State on Aug 20, 2008 12:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Ok, if that's what you're talking about, I just might agree.

Some people don’t believe in psychological impact. Some believe only in positive psychological impact in the event of a good “buy” trade, but seem to feel that a player should just suck it up and ignore it on the opposite side. Personally, I believe there can definitely be a negative psychological impact that can drag a team down, and I wonder if this trade, especially when combined with the Blanton trade, didn’t do just that.

In much the same way that only a handful of players openly criticized Macha but represented the opinions of many more, maybe Duke’s comments after the trades echoed the sentiments of more players on the team, and they feel deflated and defeated.

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Aug 20, 2008 2:38 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

i dunno man

i would tend to agree more with what a player says than what a blogger says a player really means…just saying. i feel like psychological impact or not, you still have to play the game. just because rich harden is gone doesn’t mean our offense got worse…it was just as bad before because guys were and are hurt.

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Aug 20, 2008 8:57 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

And!

Every time the Cubs have played since the Harden trade, I had dinner at some point in that day!

Thus, the Harden trade is stopping me from starving to death!

Wow, talk about an unexpected side benefit!

Causation, correlation…

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on Aug 20, 2008 6:42 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Really...

I think the A’s would have won just as many games if they had the offense that the cubs had.

by mattman on Aug 20, 2008 7:26 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Many thought that the A's gave

up too much in the Harden/Gaudin trade. I agreed with that then and I see no reason to change my mind.

by IM4Oakgal on Aug 20, 2008 12:31 PM PDT   0 recs

Harden Deal

Obviously we cannot judge this trade after such a little amount of time as others have pointed out. In my mind it doesn’t really matter what harden does in the future because while he was here he couldn’t stay healthy, what else were we supposed to judge him by. Also trading harden allowed us to get a peek at meyer and gio, which is necesary and this time of year. I have to say though that I think matt murton will never get anywhere it just doesn’t seem like he has the ability to produce in the bigs but patterson has a little more potential.

by mattman on Aug 20, 2008 12:38 PM PDT   0 recs

This is why I am thankful like AN....

“JasonIble’s” lack of insight, patience, analysis, and perspective is typical of the type of drivel you hear on KNBR, amongst the fans at the Coli, and read in the papers. Reaffirms my belief that the masses are asses and do not think independently, analytically, or outside the box. The US has become a soundbyte what have you done for me today culture. Just plain disgusting.

The Jasonibles of the world get the smack down in places like AN where most writers tend to be insightful, intelligent, and farsighted. Thank you AN.

by 33SwisherSweet on Aug 20, 2008 12:57 PM PDT   0 recs

it's precisely because of short-termism and fear of negative press articles...

that moneyball or value investing strategies work. value investing is hard. it requires work and some risk but it pays off in the end. the payoffs are not always obvious but executing the discipline works in the long term.

gallagher had a 1.20 whip in the minors and a 1.0 k per 9.

can we please give him some time to execute and not skewer him already? jeez, we’re not new york or boston.

by inbillywetrust on Aug 20, 2008 1:00 PM PDT   0 recs

It's improved at higher levels ...

and was high because he hadn’t learned to command his stuff yet. (Not that he has entirely at this point, either) He gave up considerably less than a hit an inning over his minor league career and only topped that marked in rookie league as an 18 year old.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 20, 2008 1:18 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

There are 12...

count ’em 12 pitchers in the PCL with a WHIP below 1.20. It looks like a 1.20 WHIP is pretty darn good.

by Eggman on Aug 20, 2008 1:26 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Wrongest. statement. ever.

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on Aug 20, 2008 6:43 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

That's not true

He didn’t include any references at all to strickouts.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 20, 2008 9:10 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

PCL...whip

I don’t know how you can make that statement with all the talent that the PCL is stacked with, 1.20 is definitely a great number especially because pitchers are still developing and preparing their skills at this point.

by mattman on Aug 20, 2008 7:47 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Smartest. statement. ever.

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on Aug 20, 2008 6:44 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

i agree

…I think some of the people are yet to realize this though, we are padding our future knowing we have no present.

by mattman on Aug 20, 2008 9:06 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The only thing

That I’m baffled about with regards to the Harden deal is that Harden can leave and is by all accounts perfectly healthy. Gallagher comes in and his arm is already falling off. It’s ridiculous. I don’t know any more if it’s the training staff or just a horrible curse in the clubhouse but our players are down for the count faster than pitchers under the control of Dusty Baker.

"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin

by Helloooo 1st on Aug 20, 2008 1:01 PM PDT   0 recs

you're right

the a’s training staff broke gallagher. insightful.

c’mon.

by inbillywetrust on Aug 20, 2008 1:03 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm not saying that

I’m just stating that I’m tired of our guys getting injured at a ridiculous rate. There’s no way all these injuries the last 3 years are just bad luck or even just a lot of injury prone guys.

"Their batters are patient to the point that it's annoying." -Ryan Franklin

by Helloooo 1st on Aug 20, 2008 8:23 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

you contradicted yourself...

if guys are getting hurt at a ridiculous rate and it’s not bad luck or injury prone guys, then what is it? i think you’re back to blaming the staff, which you claim that you aren’t. please clarify.

by inbillywetrust on Aug 21, 2008 3:05 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Broken

…according to some on this sight we have broken pitchers like loaiza, meyer, and mulder so why just blame the staff again, right?

by mattman on Aug 20, 2008 9:08 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Is it possible to have a "venting" thread ??

with a link or something so that it stays on the top?

as much fun as the daily dairies that say “the __________ trade is a failure”. " ______ sucks." “Fire _ NOW!”

I think it would be nice to keep all the venting in one REALLY LONG diary as opposed to the daily diaries.

by buddahead9 on Aug 20, 2008 1:01 PM PDT   0 recs

vent thread...not

Although in some situations I agree with you that diaries are just pure childish rage. Some of the sort of claims are truly legitimate and should be debated and thought about unfortunately I don’t even think this current one is relevant.

by mattman on Aug 20, 2008 7:46 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I mean

I wasn’t for this trade from day one, and I still think it was a poor deal.

But not because a few weeks of performance data make it look poor. That doesn’t really confirm much of anything.

RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.

by walk off bunt on Aug 20, 2008 1:03 PM PDT   0 recs

Sorry, who is this Swisher in your nickname?

How’s that trade looking?

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on Aug 20, 2008 6:44 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

{ywan} ... YAWN ...

You see, I say yawn because when I actually yawn, you don’t get it.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 20, 2008 1:20 PM PDT   0 recs

odd how the author's of these types of diaries

never seem to return to react to any of the comments

"The Athletics at Fremont" is quite bad

by ArakSOT on Aug 20, 2008 1:26 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

15 diaries ... 113 comments ...

I’ve seen worse ratios …

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Aug 20, 2008 1:41 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Mine would be worse...

…I have only 4 diaries.

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Aug 20, 2008 4:38 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

devo's point is that that's better

looking for high post: diary ratio

"Behind both goals were banners bearing the word 'Calamity' while another carried the warning: 'You will drown in the Bosphorous.'"--Threats made by Turkish soccer fans to the British from a match in 2003. Tribute to their miraculous run in Euro 2008.

RIP Tim Russert, quintessential Buffalonian.

by Cutthemullet on Aug 20, 2008 4:48 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs