A Discussion of Baseball Ethics (*SPOILERS FROM USA-CHINA BASEBALL*)
by nevermoor on Aug 18, 2008 3:01 PM PDT
Email
PrintThere once was some content here.
There once was some content here.
There once was some content here.
There once was some content here.
There once was some content here.
There once was some content here.
There once was some content here.
There once was some content here.
There once was some content here.
There once was some content here.
There once was some content here.
There once was some content here.
There once was some content here.
There once was some content here.
There once was some content here.
There once was some content here.
There once was some content here.
There once was some content here.
There once was some content here.
There once was some content here.
There once was some content here.
66 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I'll wait until I've watched the game, which I probably will now that you talked about this
But from what it sounds like, I’ll PROBABLY be in agreement with you.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
Running into a catcher when you are up by 5 is unethical.
Or down by 5 for that matter. I don’t know the score in that game, however.
And yes, not every ‘running into’ is the same, or done with the same force
It was 4-0 in the 6th when Schierholtz did it on a sac fly
The catcher was about a step in front of the plate and about to take a high throw. Schierholtz could’ve easily slid behind him but he went for the shoulder.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
Totally agree.
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
Well, I would have liked to watch the game, but work seems to have interfered.
showed/showing on one of the off-brand channels, I take it?
I see a deranged rabbit, on fire, cowering away from a vagina. I await the results of the Rorschaschererer. -Nico
Are the umpires allowed to halt the game?
Issue a forfeit against a team obviously headhunting?
At some point, batters may refuse to bat.
Sportsmanship is important, even when you do have nationalistic reasons for rooting. I wouldn’t appreciate a (Russian / Cuban / Iraqi / Marsian ) player taking our countries’ fights onto the field myself.
Do the pitchers hit?
I kind of doubt it since it’s the Olympics, but I haven’t been able to watch the games. IMO, the pitcher batting would solve these problems. I think a pitcher would be a little reluctant to buzz a guy’s ear if he has to bat…
by VORP is too nerdy on Aug 18, 2008 3:35 PM PDT reply actions
“China, however, profoundly embarrassed themselves. Their pitchers’ lack of control (most of the HBP) is just sad at an Olympic level.”
well, the chinese baseball team is lousy: they’re not AT an “olympic level” they just got an automatic berth.
they’re so bad it’s at least possible that none of the HBPs were on purpose. but if the donald and laporta HBPs were retaliation for the catchers, it almost certainly wasn’t ordered by the chinese coaches as they’re all americans.
btw the guy who took out the other chinese catcher was nate schierholtz of the giants.
The host country receives an automatic baseball berth, which is the only way Lefebvre’s team could have qualified.
"Our goal is not to become Olympic champions, but to play the game right," Lefebvre said. "We just don’t want to be embarrassed out there, you know?"
Tom Lawless, one of China’s coaches, said his team had only six players who could play in the minor leagues. Major league scouts rated the players mostly 2’s on a scale of 1-8. The former Cincinnati Reds shortstop Barry Larkin, another coach, said the players’ talent rated at about a high school or a college level.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
Wow.
I could’ve played for this team.
by VORP is too nerdy on Aug 18, 2008 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm thinking I should've looked for a loophole to become a Chinese citizen and play some Olympic baseball
On the other hand, I don’t want to be a citizen of China.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
Nice
I’m thinking I could’ve played an average first base while striking out or making weak contact a few times a game.
Canada beat them 10-0, they somehow beat Chinese Taipei 8-7, then lost to the Netherlands 6-4, South Korea 1-0 and the United States 9-1.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
In which case....
I’m disgusted we only beat them 9 – 2. Which begs my next question….how many potential A’s are playing for the U.S. team?
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
Cahill and Anderson
Do you think the A’s would beat them? It would probably go to extra innings 0-0.
by theblackpearl on Aug 18, 2008 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions
I can only hope neither of them
gave up the two runs to the Chinese.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
I haven't seen any replays
and I’ve been rooting against China in these Olympics (too many gold medals), but I was hoping the Chinese baseball team would do well. It would be great for the sport if more of the Chinese were interested. It might also help baseball get back into the Olympics in 2016 if the Chinese team had a good experience.
With that said, I hate when runners lower their shoulder to knock out a catcher. I can’t believe there’s no rule prohibiting a runner from intentionally running into a fielder in order to knock the ball out of his possession. How is running into a catcher (who has the ball) different from what A-Rod did a few years back when he lamely swiped at the pitcher or first baseman while running to first?
So I never think it’s appropriate to run over a catcher who has the ball (if he doesn’t have the ball he should get out of the way). But I also never think it’s appropriate to throw at a batter’s head. No player should ever intentionally do something that could kill a guy.
Quick question
If the catcher has the ball and is blocking the plate, or is set up to get the ball as you’re arriving, what should you do to try to score?
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
Two options:
either stop and go back to third to try to get into a rundown, or fake left and slide right. Take out his shins all you want, but don’t pretend you’re Lawrence Taylor.
Considering the place you'll be in as he's getting the ball puts you within feet of the catcher...
…going back to third to try to get in a rundown would not be a smart option.
By “take out his shins” do you suggest sliding into them or something?
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
Uh, given the fact that the runner *isn't* wearing shinguards
Recommending that he slide feet first into the catcher’s shinguards is an injury waiting to happen.
T-Ball, eh?
"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds
How about option 3?
The catcher doesn’t try to block that plate? You don’t want the baserunner to behave like a football player? Fine. In that case, the defender shouldn’t try to behave like a football player either.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
Similar question for you
No outs, runner on second, and the first baseman fields your bunt cleanly down the line, 70 feet from home plate… there’s no play at third. Do you
a) keep running and let him tag you
b) make him “make a play” either by tagging you or throwing to first
c) keep running, lower your shoulder, and try to take him out
d) ?
Keep running and make him tag you or go to first.
You’re bunting to move the runner over, thus conceding the out. You’re not trying to score a run yourself.
Completely different situation from any play at the plate.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
My point is that, if you're the bunter, you're out
and there’s nothing you can do about it (besides trying to tackle the fielder). If the catcher has the ball in front of the plate and you’re not there yet, you’re out and there’s nothing you can do about it (besides trying to break the catcher’s bones or give him a concussion).
In Little League there’s often a rule that says a runner must slide at home plate if the catcher has the ball. If the runner doesn’t he’s out automatically and is ejected from the game. As lame as it sounds to put a Little League rule into the MLB rulebook, I totally advocate something like that. I think it’s bad for baseball to encourage full-speed, intentional collisions at the plate when the runner should “clearly” be out (and I mean “clearly” in the same way that the bunter/runner is clearly out in the situation above).
I'll agree to disagree
Plays at the plate are the only cases where I think a collision is fine if you have no other realistic option. Your intent is to score and if that means trying to knock the ball loose, then you have a choice to make.
If it’s the difference between winning and losing a game, I’m doing whatever I can to get that run.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
Yeah, I'm with Flashfire on this one
but I do see the point. Collisions at the plate are just such a thing that I’d be sad not to have them.
At the same time, if there’s a no collision rule there’d have to be a no blocking the plate rule, so the catcher would have to put a tag in.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
I guess you don't like it when folks slide to break up a double play....
huh?
Don’t like it when men make contact with men? Watch softball.
Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com
You have to understand that the Chinese team is still in a developmental stage, they haven’t played baseball thier whole lives like most every other player in the tournament so you can’t expect them to be so refined.
I think like 6 of those HBP were curveballs also, they were probably pretty nervous too.
Also, while chinese in the world politics are quite detestable, these guys are hardly the Peoples Liberation Army, thier managers are Americans, and they train in the US for the majority of the year so you really shouldn’t look at this team the way you look at the Chiinese governement.They’re just trying to play baseball.
I feel bad for La Porta, he didn’t deserve it, but Sherholtz sure as hell deserved a good plunk to back for what he did.
Is that Embry warming up?....... NOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooo!!!!!!!!!
I know the chinese athletes are not the government
but I know their success will help strengthen the government domestically. I oppose that.
You're right
And like I said, it’s my bias. I think it’s semi-rational for the reasons ohmangoAs points out, but if not it’s still there.
As far as the HBP, I freely admit that 5 of the 7 were probably unintentional (and, as you say, on breaking pitches). The other two were fastballs and clearly (in my mind) intentional.
As far as Sherholtz, I agree he shouldn’t have done it but he had already gotten hit twice, and some fairer form of reprisal was warranted at that point.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
China's conduct in the world bothers you, eh?
Is that because they invaded and occupied another country under false pretenses and thereby caused one of the greatest humanitarian disasters of our time?
Oh, no wait that’s the good ol’ US of A. No, you’re referring to something along the lines of Tibet or China’s inability to apply pressure on the Sudanese government.
You know, the kind of hegemonic transgressions in which our own government has spent the last century leading the world.
Nothing against you personally, Nevermoor. After all, you DID disclaim your xenophobia. But, when another nation’s actions in the world are the reason you root against their olympians, it would sit better with me if you were at least Swedish. Not that they’re totally innocent either!
I root for team USA too, but I don’t do so with self-righteous indignation against Chinese athletes. But, whatever, do you what you want. Just don’t expect all of us to think it’s cute when you say stuff like that.
You can’t get more than one strike for a single post, can you?
Man, I’m gonna get it!
/facepalm
Remember the ‘self-righteous indignation’ against the Soviets? It’s kind of like that, and you can bet the Chinese are rooting against the US. They’re rivals, and so I think it’s perfectly natural and acceptable to view them as such.
But back on topic….
I really don’t care whether or not the HBP’s were intentional; 7 HBP is unacceptable in a baseball game at this level. You can end careers that way. If the Chinese pitchers can control themselves, then they need to hand the ball to someone else.
by VORP is too nerdy on Aug 19, 2008 5:09 AM PDT up reply actions
Just for the record, of the 7 HBP 5 were by China
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
How about rooting against the Chinese
for how they treat some of the (prospective) athletes?
How about rooting against them based on reports by Matthew Pinsent, 4 time British Olymypic gold medalist in rowing, who after visiting a sports school in China, was extremely disturbed by what he saw?
How about rooting against them based on reports that some of their child gymnasts were beaten with wooden canes? Reports which the International Gymnastics Federation swept under the carpet by saying that they were too controversial to address publicly.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
Children beaten with canes....
Okay, so now I’m rooting for the Chinese. Anyone with teenagers knows what I’m talking about…..
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
I'm not flagging you
But to be clear, I didn’t say it to be “cute.” I said it because it almost certainly affected my judgment as I watched that game, and therefore needed to be disclosed.
Honestly, I’m as aware of our country’s issues as you are (and you’re right that plenty of what we’ve done has been wrong by any reasonable standard). I wasn’t really even thinking of Tibet, more of the systematic denial of basic human rights and freedom of speech to their own citizens.
The real point, however, is that if I was rooting for China instead of the US (or didn’t much care) my reaction to the game might have been different.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
That comment doens't justify a reply.
I had something to say about it….but thought better of it.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
{canes alox anyway}
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
Bill me later?
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
do you live in the good ol' US of A?
you just criticized the US and the worst that could possibly happen to you is one CGV strike on AN.
China has received a total of 77 applications to stage protests during the Olympic Games period – but none has been approved.
Beijing’s public security bureau said 74 applications were “withdrawn”, two were “suspended” and one was “vetoed”.
China was praised by the International Olympic Committee when it said protest areas would be set up for the Olympics.
But it appears no application has managed to meet China’s strict rules on who can and cannot stage a protest.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
Yeah
Apparently the police have been arresting Chinese who show up for a permit. Kristoff nailed it the other day
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
Oddly, you would think an anti-American protest
would receive state blessing…..apparently there are no takers?
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
You're acting like getting a "strike" on a blog is no big deal.
:-(
Should we change the term to “virtual caning”?
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
How about one of these?
Guess that’ll need to be right-clicked to see fully.
Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog
what place lets protesters interfere with the actual olympics, the EUtopia in 2004? well, apparently so, but is that really what you want?
anytime there is an important event there will be protest zones so a small group of people don’t disrupt what a billion plus people are actually tuning in to watch, and that should apply in beijing also.
it’s a bit different when protesters are not given permits at all, arrested, end up in “reform through labor” camps, disappear, have their organs harvested, etc.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
Wow.
It didn’t take long for ‘free speech zones’ to go from an embarrassing affront to freedom to a shining example of democracy in action, did it?
I guess it’s true that it only takes a few years of a right being denied for people to forget they ever had it.
Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com
right, because free speech zones are the only place you can protest in the US
that’s why there are never huge marches on major city streets, protests in front of the state or federal buildings…
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
Try protesting outside the Republican National Convention
… see what happens.
Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com
please explain how that is a straw man argument, and then explain how your original comment is not.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
It should obvious
Of course, if it’s not, you can always look up the meaning of straw man fallacy.
But, I’m not willing to argue with you, because I know how much you love to argue. You’re a law student, right? Well, you’re clearly very clever, but< IMHO, you’re also nearly impossible to reason with. I suspect, you’ll defend whatever point you have no matter how much evidence I present.
So, let’s just agree to disagree.
by Jeremy Belvins on Aug 19, 2008 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions
lol
what evidence?
nevermoor said he is rooting for the US and against china at the olympics.
how is it not relevant that the US is a liberal democracy where citizens can vote in new leaders if they don’t like the policies of the old ones, where people have the freedom to protest governmental policies, etc?
how is it a straw man argument to compare the country he’s rooting for to the country he’s rooting against? and how is it any different from what you did in your original comment?
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
Your selective indignation is underwhelming.
"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
