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A Discussion of Baseball Ethics (*SPOILERS FROM USA-CHINA BASEBALL*)

I just finished watching the East Coast USA vs. China game (so I assume it'll be shown on the West Coast in a couple hours).  I found myself outraged by the Chinese team's behavior, and I'm wondering if others agree with my take on Baseball's unwritten rules.

The Events (my interpretation)

  1. Chinese pitchers rack up 7 HBP over the course of the game (I didn't see these, but the announcers were convinced all but one were unintentional)
  2. Matt LaPorta collides with the Chinese Catcher (who had the ball).  The catcher hyper extended his knee and was taken out.
  3. One of the HBP comes to the next batter (Fastball to the leg, looked pretty clearly intentional to me)
  4. Later, one of the USA players gets on base through another of the HPB, when he scores, he goes out of his way to run over China's backup catcher when the ball is still coming in.  (China's manager is ejected arguing the call).
  5. The next time LaPorta gets up, the Chinese pitcher tries to put a fastball in his ear.  Fortunately the pitcher's aim was off, and the ball glanced off LaPorta's shoulder first.  (The pitcher is ejected, LaPorta is in a hospital with a mild concussion)

My Bias

In the interest of full disclosure, my nationalistic xenophobia has come out to play in these games.  Not only am I rooting for all the Americans (as I always do), I actively root against the Chinese teams.  This is partially for medal count purposes, and partially because I have a lot of problems with China's conduct in the world.

 

And now, the point

My feeling on Baseball Ethics is as follows:

In a meaningful game - such as this one - it is completely unobjectionable to run through the catcher when he has the ball and you're trying to score (as LaPorta did).  In fact, the base runner SHOULD do this.  There is no reason to get upset when there's a legitimate play at the plate.

Also, when you hit a lot of batters (it was 6 before our guy ran over their second catcher) it doesn't really matter if you meant to.  There's a point at which a response has to be made.  I also think the first time they hit Donald (right after LaPorta's play) was intentional.

However, sportsmanship is more important in the Olympics than it is in professional play, so I agree with the US pitchers not throwing at any of their hitters to "protect our guys."  You also don't charge the mound.  If a MLB team hit 6 A's - even unintentionally - I'd be furious if there were no reprisals.  I also disagree with the guy who ran over China's second catcher.  He shouldn't have done it, and it's the wrong response to pitchers with control issues.

That said, China had no right to retaliate since it was their many HBP that pissed off our guy (who, himself, had been hit twice).  They certainly had no right to throw a fastball at LaPorta's ear.  There is no circumstance to justify such behavior, and I hope that the guy who threw that pitch is suspended from China's team.  Inexcusable doesn't even begin to describe his behavior.

 

In sum, and in my opinion, the US did not quite behave perfectly.  Running over the second catcher was unjustified (and disproportionate).  China, however, profoundly embarrassed themselves.  Their pitchers' lack of control (most of the HBP) is just sad at an Olympic level.  Their decision to throw at Donald after LaPorta's play at home was wrong.  Their decision to throw at LaPorta's ear was by far the worst violation of baseball ethics, and makes them look like bitter, vindictive, incompetents.

 

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear from other people.

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I'll wait until I've watched the game, which I probably will now that you talked about this

But from what it sounds like, I’ll PROBABLY be in agreement with you.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 18, 2008 3:13 PM PDT   0 recs

Running into a catcher when you are up by 5 is unethical.

Or down by 5 for that matter. I don’t know the score in that game, however.

And yes, not every ‘running into’ is the same, or done with the same force

by MobiusKlein on Aug 18, 2008 4:03 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It was 4-0 in the 6th when Schierholtz did it on a sac fly

The catcher was about a step in front of the plate and about to take a high throw. Schierholtz could’ve easily slid behind him but he went for the shoulder.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 18, 2008 4:11 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Totally agree.

I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.

by Vacafan on Aug 18, 2008 3:14 PM PDT   0 recs

Well, I would have liked to watch the game, but work seems to have interfered.

showed/showing on one of the off-brand channels, I take it?

I see a deranged rabbit, on fire, cowering away from a vagina. I await the results of the Rorschaschererer. -Nico

by Leopold Bloom on Aug 18, 2008 3:23 PM PDT   0 recs

MSNBC

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 18, 2008 3:33 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Are the umpires allowed to halt the game?

Issue a forfeit against a team obviously headhunting?

At some point, batters may refuse to bat.

Sportsmanship is important, even when you do have nationalistic reasons for rooting. I wouldn’t appreciate a (Russian / Cuban / Iraqi / Marsian ) player taking our countries’ fights onto the field myself.

by MobiusKlein on Aug 18, 2008 3:31 PM PDT   0 recs

Do the pitchers hit?

I kind of doubt it since it’s the Olympics, but I haven’t been able to watch the games. IMO, the pitcher batting would solve these problems. I think a pitcher would be a little reluctant to buzz a guy’s ear if he has to bat…

by VORP is too nerdy on Aug 18, 2008 3:35 PM PDT   0 recs

Nope

They use a DH

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 18, 2008 3:57 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

“China, however, profoundly embarrassed themselves. Their pitchers’ lack of control (most of the HBP) is just sad at an Olympic level.”

well, the chinese baseball team is lousy: they’re not AT an “olympic level” they just got an automatic berth.
they’re so bad it’s at least possible that none of the HBPs were on purpose. but if the donald and laporta HBPs were retaliation for the catchers, it almost certainly wasn’t ordered by the chinese coaches as they’re all americans.

btw the guy who took out the other chinese catcher was nate schierholtz of the giants.

ny times:

The host country receives an automatic baseball berth, which is the only way Lefebvre’s team could have qualified.
"Our goal is not to become Olympic champions, but to play the game right," Lefebvre said. "We just don’t want to be embarrassed out there, you know?"

Tom Lawless, one of China’s coaches, said his team had only six players who could play in the minor leagues. Major league scouts rated the players mostly 2’s on a scale of 1-8. The former Cincinnati Reds shortstop Barry Larkin, another coach, said the players’ talent rated at about a high school or a college level.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Aug 18, 2008 3:42 PM PDT   0 recs

Wow.

I could’ve played for this team.

by VORP is too nerdy on Aug 18, 2008 3:43 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Nice

I’m thinking I could’ve played an average first base while striking out or making weak contact a few times a game.

Canada beat them 10-0, they somehow beat Chinese Taipei 8-7, then lost to the Netherlands 6-4, South Korea 1-0 and the United States 9-1.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 18, 2008 3:51 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

In which case....

I’m disgusted we only beat them 9 – 2. Which begs my next question….how many potential A’s are playing for the U.S. team?

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Aug 18, 2008 4:04 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Cahill and Anderson

Do you think the A’s would beat them? It would probably go to extra innings 0-0.

by theblackpearl on Aug 18, 2008 4:11 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I can only hope neither of them

gave up the two runs to the Chinese.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Aug 18, 2008 4:13 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yep

First HR in Chinese olympic baseball history

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 18, 2008 6:53 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I haven't seen any replays

and I’ve been rooting against China in these Olympics (too many gold medals), but I was hoping the Chinese baseball team would do well. It would be great for the sport if more of the Chinese were interested. It might also help baseball get back into the Olympics in 2016 if the Chinese team had a good experience.

With that said, I hate when runners lower their shoulder to knock out a catcher. I can’t believe there’s no rule prohibiting a runner from intentionally running into a fielder in order to knock the ball out of his possession. How is running into a catcher (who has the ball) different from what A-Rod did a few years back when he lamely swiped at the pitcher or first baseman while running to first?

So I never think it’s appropriate to run over a catcher who has the ball (if he doesn’t have the ball he should get out of the way). But I also never think it’s appropriate to throw at a batter’s head. No player should ever intentionally do something that could kill a guy.

by ervance on Aug 18, 2008 4:59 PM PDT   0 recs

Quick question

If the catcher has the ball and is blocking the plate, or is set up to get the ball as you’re arriving, what should you do to try to score?

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 18, 2008 5:05 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Two options:

either stop and go back to third to try to get into a rundown, or fake left and slide right. Take out his shins all you want, but don’t pretend you’re Lawrence Taylor.

by ervance on Aug 18, 2008 5:08 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Considering the place you'll be in as he's getting the ball puts you within feet of the catcher...

…going back to third to try to get in a rundown would not be a smart option.

By “take out his shins” do you suggest sliding into them or something?

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 18, 2008 5:35 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Slide feet first, front knee slightly bent

and make the catcher use his shin guards.

by ervance on Aug 18, 2008 5:40 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Uh, given the fact that the runner *isn't* wearing shinguards

Recommending that he slide feet first into the catcher’s shinguards is an injury waiting to happen.

by mikev on Aug 18, 2008 8:10 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

T-Ball, eh?

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Aug 18, 2008 5:55 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

How about option 3?

The catcher doesn’t try to block that plate? You don’t want the baserunner to behave like a football player? Fine. In that case, the defender shouldn’t try to behave like a football player either.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 19, 2008 6:18 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Similar question for you

No outs, runner on second, and the first baseman fields your bunt cleanly down the line, 70 feet from home plate… there’s no play at third. Do you
a) keep running and let him tag you
b) make him “make a play” either by tagging you or throwing to first
c) keep running, lower your shoulder, and try to take him out
d) ?

by ervance on Aug 18, 2008 5:23 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Keep running and make him tag you or go to first.

You’re bunting to move the runner over, thus conceding the out. You’re not trying to score a run yourself.

Completely different situation from any play at the plate.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 18, 2008 5:37 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

My point is that, if you're the bunter, you're out

and there’s nothing you can do about it (besides trying to tackle the fielder). If the catcher has the ball in front of the plate and you’re not there yet, you’re out and there’s nothing you can do about it (besides trying to break the catcher’s bones or give him a concussion).

In Little League there’s often a rule that says a runner must slide at home plate if the catcher has the ball. If the runner doesn’t he’s out automatically and is ejected from the game. As lame as it sounds to put a Little League rule into the MLB rulebook, I totally advocate something like that. I think it’s bad for baseball to encourage full-speed, intentional collisions at the plate when the runner should “clearly” be out (and I mean “clearly” in the same way that the bunter/runner is clearly out in the situation above).

by ervance on Aug 18, 2008 5:49 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'll agree to disagree

Plays at the plate are the only cases where I think a collision is fine if you have no other realistic option. Your intent is to score and if that means trying to knock the ball loose, then you have a choice to make.

If it’s the difference between winning and losing a game, I’m doing whatever I can to get that run.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 18, 2008 6:00 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, I'm with Flashfire on this one

but I do see the point. Collisions at the plate are just such a thing that I’d be sad not to have them.

At the same time, if there’s a no collision rule there’d have to be a no blocking the plate rule, so the catcher would have to put a tag in.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 18, 2008 6:57 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I guess you don't like it when folks slide to break up a double play....

huh?

Don’t like it when men make contact with men? Watch softball.

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on Aug 19, 2008 3:03 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

He’s a man! We wrestled!

There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 19, 2008 3:22 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You have to understand that the Chinese team is still in a developmental stage, they haven’t played baseball thier whole lives like most every other player in the tournament so you can’t expect them to be so refined.

  I think like 6 of those HBP were curveballs also, they were probably pretty nervous too.
Also, while chinese in the world politics are quite detestable, these guys are hardly the Peoples Liberation Army, thier managers are Americans, and they train in the US for the majority of the year so you really shouldn’t look at this team the way you look at the Chiinese governement.They’re just trying to play baseball.

  I feel bad for La Porta, he didn’t deserve it, but Sherholtz sure as hell deserved a good plunk to back for what he did.

Is that Embry warming up?....... NOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooo!!!!!!!!!

by iljackb on Aug 18, 2008 5:01 PM PDT   0 recs

I know the chinese athletes are not the government

but I know their success will help strengthen the government domestically. I oppose that.

by ohmangoAs on Aug 18, 2008 6:26 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You're right

And like I said, it’s my bias. I think it’s semi-rational for the reasons ohmangoAs points out, but if not it’s still there.

As far as the HBP, I freely admit that 5 of the 7 were probably unintentional (and, as you say, on breaking pitches). The other two were fastballs and clearly (in my mind) intentional.

As far as Sherholtz, I agree he shouldn’t have done it but he had already gotten hit twice, and some fairer form of reprisal was warranted at that point.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 18, 2008 7:00 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

China's conduct in the world bothers you, eh?

Is that because they invaded and occupied another country under false pretenses and thereby caused one of the greatest humanitarian disasters of our time?

Oh, no wait that’s the good ol’ US of A. No, you’re referring to something along the lines of Tibet or China’s inability to apply pressure on the Sudanese government.

You know, the kind of hegemonic transgressions in which our own government has spent the last century leading the world.

Nothing against you personally, Nevermoor. After all, you DID disclaim your xenophobia. But, when another nation’s actions in the world are the reason you root against their olympians, it would sit better with me if you were at least Swedish. Not that they’re totally innocent either!

I root for team USA too, but I don’t do so with self-righteous indignation against Chinese athletes. But, whatever, do you what you want. Just don’t expect all of us to think it’s cute when you say stuff like that.

You can’t get more than one strike for a single post, can you?

Man, I’m gonna get it!

by Jeremy Belvins on Aug 19, 2008 2:19 AM PDT   0 recs

/facepalm

Remember the ‘self-righteous indignation’ against the Soviets? It’s kind of like that, and you can bet the Chinese are rooting against the US. They’re rivals, and so I think it’s perfectly natural and acceptable to view them as such.

But back on topic….

I really don’t care whether or not the HBP’s were intentional; 7 HBP is unacceptable in a baseball game at this level. You can end careers that way. If the Chinese pitchers can control themselves, then they need to hand the ball to someone else.

by VORP is too nerdy on Aug 19, 2008 5:09 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

How about rooting against the Chinese

for how they treat some of the (prospective) athletes?

How about rooting against them based on reports by Matthew Pinsent, 4 time British Olymypic gold medalist in rowing, who after visiting a sports school in China, was extremely disturbed by what he saw?

How about rooting against them based on reports that some of their child gymnasts were beaten with wooden canes? Reports which the International Gymnastics Federation swept under the carpet by saying that they were too controversial to address publicly.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 19, 2008 6:26 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Children beaten with canes....

Okay, so now I’m rooting for the Chinese. Anyone with teenagers knows what I’m talking about…..

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Aug 19, 2008 12:35 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm not flagging you

But to be clear, I didn’t say it to be “cute.” I said it because it almost certainly affected my judgment as I watched that game, and therefore needed to be disclosed.

Honestly, I’m as aware of our country’s issues as you are (and you’re right that plenty of what we’ve done has been wrong by any reasonable standard). I wasn’t really even thinking of Tibet, more of the systematic denial of basic human rights and freedom of speech to their own citizens.

The real point, however, is that if I was rooting for China instead of the US (or didn’t much care) my reaction to the game might have been different.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 19, 2008 8:16 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

That comment doens't justify a reply.

I had something to say about it….but thought better of it.

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Aug 19, 2008 12:36 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

{canes alox anyway}

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Aug 19, 2008 12:45 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Bill me later?

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Aug 19, 2008 1:08 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

do you live in the good ol' US of A?

you just criticized the US and the worst that could possibly happen to you is one CGV strike on AN.

China has received a total of 77 applications to stage protests during the Olympic Games period – but none has been approved.

Beijing’s public security bureau said 74 applications were “withdrawn”, two were “suspended” and one was “vetoed”.

China was praised by the International Olympic Committee when it said protest areas would be set up for the Olympics.

But it appears no application has managed to meet China’s strict rules on who can and cannot stage a protest.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Aug 19, 2008 12:19 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah

Apparently the police have been arresting Chinese who show up for a permit. Kristoff nailed it the other day

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 19, 2008 12:35 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Oddly, you would think an anti-American protest

would receive state blessing…..apparently there are no takers?

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Aug 19, 2008 12:38 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You're acting like getting a "strike" on a blog is no big deal.

:-(

Should we change the term to “virtual caning”?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Aug 19, 2008 12:47 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

How about one of these?

Guess that’ll need to be right-clicked to see fully.

Last of the Ninth - Photography Site / jamesvenes.com - Blog

by Flashfire on Aug 19, 2008 1:09 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

{cough}

There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 19, 2008 1:14 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Ah

but at least we let people use ’em…

And, of course, they are not necessary for sidewalks and other unrestricted public access areas.

"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson

by nevermoor on Aug 19, 2008 1:25 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

what place lets protesters interfere with the actual olympics, the EUtopia in 2004? well, apparently so, but is that really what you want?
anytime there is an important event there will be protest zones so a small group of people don’t disrupt what a billion plus people are actually tuning in to watch, and that should apply in beijing also.
it’s a bit different when protesters are not given permits at all, arrested, end up in “reform through labor” camps, disappear, have their organs harvested, etc.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Aug 19, 2008 2:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Wow.

It didn’t take long for ‘free speech zones’ to go from an embarrassing affront to freedom to a shining example of democracy in action, did it?

I guess it’s true that it only takes a few years of a right being denied for people to forget they ever had it.

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on Aug 19, 2008 3:08 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

right, because free speech zones are the only place you can protest in the US

that’s why there are never huge marches on major city streets, protests in front of the state or federal buildings…

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Aug 19, 2008 3:19 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Try protesting outside the Republican National Convention

… see what happens.

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on Aug 20, 2008 7:02 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

please explain how that is a straw man argument, and then explain how your original comment is not.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Aug 19, 2008 3:20 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It should obvious

Of course, if it’s not, you can always look up the meaning of straw man fallacy.

But, I’m not willing to argue with you, because I know how much you love to argue. You’re a law student, right? Well, you’re clearly very clever, but< IMHO, you’re also nearly impossible to reason with. I suspect, you’ll defend whatever point you have no matter how much evidence I present.

So, let’s just agree to disagree.

by Jeremy Belvins on Aug 19, 2008 3:29 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

lol

what evidence?

nevermoor said he is rooting for the US and against china at the olympics.
how is it not relevant that the US is a liberal democracy where citizens can vote in new leaders if they don’t like the policies of the old ones, where people have the freedom to protest governmental policies, etc?

how is it a straw man argument to compare the country he’s rooting for to the country he’s rooting against? and how is it any different from what you did in your original comment?

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Aug 19, 2008 4:10 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Your selective indignation is underwhelming.

"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds

by UncleLeo on Aug 20, 2008 9:32 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Two words:

Bear farms.

Notes From The Nat has a new home: http://www.natnotes.com

by Ozzz on Aug 19, 2008 3:39 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

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