Free Agent Frenzy 2009
Just for argument's sake, let's say that this list of free agents for the upcoming offseason is presented to you as a general manager of the Oakland Athletics. If you scan down the list, what looks appealing AND affordable? Remember, we're talking the A's here and I don't think this team is looking to necessarily break the bank...yet. If the A's are going to sign someone longer-term, it likely isn't going to be this upcoming offseason. Not unless the A's believe that their young pitchers like Cahill, Anderson, Simmons and Mazzaro are ready to contribute a LOT in 2009, which they very well could be. It's just not something to bank on yet.
This organization is looking like it's built for 2010 and beyond. And the good news is that once this team gets good, it's going to be in for a long period of being a great team, not just a good one. That being said, the A's front office has to realize that this team needs some offense. I mean, pretty much every pitcher in baseball knows that the A's offense is a cakewalk right now, including the A's own pitchers who seem to be suffering a bit from "If I let up one run, I'm screwed disease."
So with players like Carter and Cardenas a ways away, I think you're going to see the A's try and plug a couple of holes in the offense by opening up the wallet. Not enough to make anyone incredibly excited, but it wouldn't surprise me to see the A's sign a couple of players off the aforementioned list.
Names that would fit? Well, someone like Rafael Furcal would seem to be ideal. He's injured and he might come cheap because of that injury. Look at what the A's have done in signing free agents. It's buying folks who come in the bargain bin but have great upside potential. Sometimes it has worked well, as in Frank Thomas 2006, sometimes not so well as in Mike Piazza. Furcal might be willing to come to Oakland, prove his worth again and that he's fine after his surgery and then sign for a relatively large contract elsewhere.
A few others that have been mentioned ad nauseum on AN include Jason Giambi, Hank Blalock and the recently traded Adam Dunn. I might actually cheer for Jason Giambi if he was to return, time might have healed this wound surprisingly enough. I don't actually feel like throwing something at my TV when I see him. Maybe I'm just losing intensity in my older age. Speaking of older age, perhaps the A's would consider Bonds again this offseason. You have to think that guy can still hit despite everything. I'm not advocating for it, mind you, but the improvement in this dreadful lineup could be immense.
All of those options are left-handed and we know how Beane has craved a right-handed bat for a while now. There really isn't much out there in terms of a big right-handed bat that doesn't sound like Lanny Con-Beerez. And we just know that isn't happening. At the same time, Jay Payton and Milton Bradley are available. Oh wait. Seriously though, Pat Burrell is probably the only realistic option and while he would be appealing, I think he'll be looking for more than the A's will be willing to offer.
The only other two options I could see are also left-handed. Dallas McPherson has also been mentioned a bunch around these parts and he has mashed up on Triple-A pitching this year. And Billy Beane has always coveted Brian Giles. Beane does often finally get whatever he covets. So Giles wouldn't surprise me at all and Giles is a better player than people think, especially having played in Petco for too long.
I know it's early to start talking about our 09 shopping list, but we don't have much else going on these days other than the upcoming September call-ups and seeing how Gio Gonzalez is going to do his next time on the hill.
Is there anyone on that list you find appealing? Juan Rivera? Would you bring Frank Thomas back? Discuss.
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Besides Frank, I think Giambi is still the best bet
Giambi’s the best combination of performance, likelihood to be interested in the A’s, and cheapness. I do think we’ll bring Thomas back, just because I don’t see much interest from other teams. I could see him signing with the Rays or Twins or maybe the O’s though. However, if we sign both, Giambi will have to play 1B. Which leaves Barton on the bench/in AAA. So I highly doubt that we go that route. (Side note: If we did, would a Barton for Brandon Wood trade work for both sides? I think that’s a great deal actually, if only the Angels weren’t in our division)
But if we bring back Thomas and sign Giambi we’d have a legitimate 3-4-5-6 in Giambi, Thomas, Cust, and CarGo. If we do my pet trade proposal of Sweeney, Mazzaro, HRod, and Eveland/Smith for Hardy and Hart as well, we’d have a very solid 1-7.
Patterson 2b
Hardy SS
Giambi 1b
Thomas DH
Cust LF
Hart RF
CarGo CF
Suzuki C
Branyan/Baisley/Guzman 3b
Even with a green pitching staff and possible offensive holes at 2b and 3b, I think that lineup can guarantee semi-contention in 2009 and with a good pitching staff I think it could give us the division.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on
Aug 12, 2008 12:48 AM PDT
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No!!!! Not Henry!!!!
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 1:03 AM PDT
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Not Bad, except...
I’m not going to ask why Milwaukee would suddenly trade two of the foundations of their team —both of whom have power -- for a non-power hitting outfielder, a barely proven starter, and a pair of prospects, even if one of them throws 100 mph.
by richwol1 on
Aug 12, 2008 1:03 AM PDT
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Hardy is supposedly expendable because of Escobar. Hart maybe because of Gamel?
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 1:04 AM PDT
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That's what I assumed
And with Sheets and Sabathia probably gone they’ll need pitching. Smith/Eveland and Mazzaro can help quickly, HRod in the future. Sweeney gives them a leadoff hitter and with Braun, Gamel, and Prince, they still have a hell of a middle of an order.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on
Aug 12, 2008 1:32 AM PDT
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They really need a #2-3 behind Gallardo, and/or Parra. Gallagher?
Suppan and Bush are fine for the back end, also McClung and Villanueva. Sweeney’s probably fine to fill Hart’s roster spot. They also need a catcher and lots of relievers - Suzuki, Carignan, Street, Devine, Blevins, Ziegler - all may be interesting to them. I”d think Gallagher and Suzuki would probably do it. Of course we’d have to re-sign Kendall. The other option might be Gallagher, Sweeney and two of the above relievers. But not Henry!!!
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 1:51 AM PDT
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Milwaukee is built for NOW...
..and they’re losing Sabathia and Sheets at the end of the season. One would think that if they plan to trade Hart and/or Hardy, or anyone else, it would be for front-line starters who could win in 2009 and 2010.
by richwol1 on
Aug 12, 2008 1:14 AM PDT
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They've made noises about major rebuilding
They will have had something like 12 first two round picks in the 2008 and 2009 draft, and there’s some thought that they might rebuild around that core rather than try to string together another season without Sheets and Sabathia. So I think it’s believable that those guys could be on the market. If they make the playoffs but don’t win the world series, the pressure to not rebuild might be irresistible, but if they either miss the postseason or win it all they might cash in next season.
That said, the deal vignette keeps proposing is comically favorable to the A’s. Replace Eveland/Smith with Cahill/Anderson and you might possibly not get instantly hung up on.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Aug 12, 2008 1:29 PM PDT
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I think Giambi may have played his way into having his option exercised by the Yanks for '09
It’s a 22MM option with a 5MM buyout. Sure he’s old, but it’s a one-year commitment, and perhaps less risky than the huge, lengthy commitment Teixiera would cost them.
"Innings eater? Depends on whether you want delicious innings or burnt, moldy innings. Kirk Saarloos is the Hot Pockets of inning eaters." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by notsellingjeans on
Aug 12, 2008 1:05 AM PDT
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If they don't get Teixeira, they might sign Dunn and put him at 1B
I would if I were they. Giambi’s at best a one-year solution.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 1:06 AM PDT
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That's stalling the situation
Posada might end up having to play DH/1B, but they could easily DH him.
There isn’t really a nice 2010 FA crop at 1B anyways.
I see the future. I see cake.
by Blicks on
Aug 12, 2008 1:44 PM PDT
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A few months ago, I would've said to Bring Frank back in '09 for sure
But with the emergence of Cunningham setting up a possible Cunningham-Sweeney-CarGon OF in ‘09 (talk about awesome defense), DH may be where Cust gets his at-bats next year.
I love Frank, and the fact that twice he’s signed league-minimum contracts to play for the A’s. But he won’t be happy if he has to take on a reduced role due to ineffectiveness, and at 41, he’ll be more and more likely to have bouts of ineffectiveness. He’s also practically guaranteed to log some DL time.
The nice thing about cost-controlled players vs. FA signees is that, in general, the young guys are probably less entitled and excited to be there, so you’re a little bit less likely to have Sheffield-in-Detroit or Thomas-in-Toronto problems related to playing time. If corner OF-DH-4th-5th OF turns into a battle royale between Cunningham-Sweeney—Cust-Murton-Patterson-Buck-Gaetti-Davis, that could be a good thing, and it would provide some decent platoon/defense opportunities. Unlike a free agent, there’s the added flexibility of being able to option the losers of that derby down to AAA, or subsequently yank up the hot hand.
"Innings eater? Depends on whether you want delicious innings or burnt, moldy innings. Kirk Saarloos is the Hot Pockets of inning eaters." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by notsellingjeans on
Aug 12, 2008 1:01 AM PDT
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Thomas wasn't benched for ineffectiveness though
They gave him 2 1/2 weeks and then benched him. They did it to avoid paying him more money. I’m pretty sure that’s the main reason he was upset.
And If Frank comes cheap, you can always get rid of him without much of a problem if you have to do so.
by thejd44 on
Aug 12, 2008 1:17 AM PDT
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I'd choose Frank over Cust as DH
Let Cust be the fourth outfielder, and Frank’s replacement during his times on the DL. Sign Frank Thomas for 2009!
by richwol1 on
Aug 12, 2008 1:17 AM PDT
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+1
Frank Thomas > Jack Cust. Cust is too old to get any better, either. Cust is only “cheap” for one more year, too. If that’s the decision, it’s an easy one for me. I also doubt he’ll be as popular with other teams as he is with us, so he’ll be readily available if we change our mind.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on
Aug 12, 2008 12:42 PM PDT
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I'm afraid I don't agree there - not when you consider all factors
Cust will probably out HR Thomas next year due to age and health. If Cust can maintain a .370 OBP, run the bases like he’s not a cripple, and hit 25 HRs – all of which he has done both last year and this year – then I think he’s a better offensive player for 2009 than Thomas is.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Aug 12, 2008 12:56 PM PDT
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+1
Cust is approximately equivalent to Frank Thomas as a hitter, but he also plays defense, runs, and is not as big an injury risk. Also, the notion of Cust being “too old” while comparing him to Frank Thomas is laughable.
...and the future is now!
by gio_is_the_future on
Aug 12, 2008 1:39 PM PDT
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Agree, but Frank is clearly a better hitter than Jack
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 1:52 PM PDT
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Not this year or last year...
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on
Aug 12, 2008 1:56 PM PDT
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Ugh. I neglected Toronto 2008.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 2:08 PM PDT
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Cust can't get a single to the opposite field
and Thomas can. If a pitcher doesn’t make a mistake to Cust, Cust is out, probably by strikeout. Thomas can hit good pitches. Frank has a better OPS+ since he’s been in Oakland, and his OPS+ for each of the last five seasons is better than Cust’s this year. Cust hit 26 last year, and is going to hit 26 this year—his power ceiling is 25-30 HR. Frank hit 39 in 2006, and has hit 40 five times in his career.
I made the point about Cust’s age only to point out that he’s hardly an investment in the future. They’re both fairly short-term choices, so let’s choose the better hitter.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on
Aug 12, 2008 2:52 PM PDT
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Why is Cust not a good bet to be productive for the next few years?
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 3:08 PM PDT
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He's not very good?
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Aug 12, 2008 3:28 PM PDT
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you're arguing with a guy who has an anti-cust bias
he said piazza was better than cust last year and that piazza would have more RBIs because he had a higher batting average.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on
Aug 12, 2008 3:28 PM PDT
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Cust's fine...
he’s the type of player who’s a star on the PIrates and Kevin Millar on the Red Sox, though. He’s no building block.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on
Aug 13, 2008 8:27 PM PDT
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Disagree
Arguments about Frank being able to hit to the opposite field/hit “good pitches” are largely irrelevant, not to mention unsubstantiated. Strikeouts are almost completely irrelevant.
But even granting you the argument that Frank Thomas can hit “good” pitchers better, it’s the overall numbers that really matter. And if the overall numbers are the same, that just proves that Jack Cust can hit the “bad” pitchers better. Quite frankly (no pun intended), I don’t really care who’s getting what kind of hits off whom – the production is all that matters.
Looking at Frank Thomas’ OPS+ in Oakland only this year is quite the cherry-picking feat, seeing as how he’s only played in 38 games. His 2008 OPS+ overall is lower than Jack Cust’s. And his 2007 OPS+ is way lower than Jack’s OPS+ last year. These are the only two relevant years in Jack Cust’s career. It may be true that Jack Cust’s power ceiling is 25-30 HR (although that’s quite the bold proclamation for a 29 year old who is in his second full major league season), but I’d argue that Frank Thomas has a similar ceiling at this point in his career. It’s true that he has gone over 40 five times in his career, but three of those times were literally in the last millennium.
Not to mention that skills tend to decline dramatically at the 40-age mark, and that Cust is 29 years old with less than 2 years of MLB experience.
All of this to say simply that Frank Thomas will not clearly be a better hitter than Jack Cust next year, and in fact may very well be worse. But he WILL clearly be (1) unable to play defense, (2) older and more injury-prone, and (3) a bigger liability on the basepaths.
...and the future is now!
by gio_is_the_future on
Aug 12, 2008 3:41 PM PDT
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I don't know why observation is irrelevant to analysis
I see Frank Thomas serve two strike pitches into the opposite field often. Jack Cust always takes the same ridiculously huge swing every time, regardless of the game situation. I could sit in front of tape and tally it up if I had 500 hours on my hands.
You’re cherry-picking, too, looking at Cust’s OPS+ from last year against Frank’s from last year. Cust will never have a season in his life like Frank’s 2006, that’s for sure.
All that said, there’s no reason they can’t keep both. However, if Cunningham (or the corpse of Travis Buck) emerges by the middle of next year, and there’s two guys for one DH spot, picking the guy to ride the bench is an easy call.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on
Aug 13, 2008 8:36 PM PDT
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Especially b/c Frank is on the DL again?
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Aug 14, 2008 9:48 AM PDT
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Cust will still be "cheap" for at least his first year of arbitration ...
assuredly a fair amount less than Frank Thomas would cost.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Aug 12, 2008 2:00 PM PDT
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I have to agree - much as I love Thomas
for 2009 he is an injury risk, a station-to-station liability (you can’t really bat Gonzalez or Suzuki, or any high average or doubles hitter you might have, behind him), and is unlikely to hit more than 20 HRs – and he blocks Cust and Chavez from potentially DHing.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Aug 12, 2008 8:16 AM PDT
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You really just said that?
Taking away at bats from Chavez DHing? Really? Do we not remember that his only redeeming quality over the last few years was his glove? His bat is a liability.
I’ll agree that taking away AB’s from Cust might be a problem, but this is the A’s we’re talking about. Do we really think that the outfield trio of Cunninham/Buck; CarGon; Sweeney is going to remain perfectly healthy the entire year.
Depth is never a bad thing.
Bring back the Hurt!!!
by 33SwisherSweet on
Aug 12, 2008 10:36 AM PDT
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You and I have different expectations of a shoulder-repaired
non-throwing Chavez’ ability to hit. I’m not expecting him to bounce back but I think it’s a real possibility. Part of what I’m basing that on is what I saw in June before his shoulder started acting up again.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Aug 12, 2008 10:41 AM PDT
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Granted, he did hit well in his abbreviated stint this year, but
I remember too much of the 2006-2008 version. I’m ready to cut our losses. My objectivity is skewed due to my man-love of the Hurt.
by 33SwisherSweet on
Aug 12, 2008 10:47 AM PDT
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the 2006-2008 version
was a surgeon’s walking dream. he probably shouldn’t have played much, if at all, during those years. the fact that he took the field at all was incredible – and probably a bad thing because that meant he didn’t get the surgeries earlier, when he probably should have. chavvy’s stats for those years are basically useless. now, he might not ever return to his old form, but i think its nearly impossible for him to be significantly better than he was when he had injuries to his shoulders, hamstrings, and forearms that i suspect very few, if any, players in baseball would have played through.
by guy incognito on
Aug 12, 2008 12:19 PM PDT
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At his worst, ie when he was basically in agony during every at-bat,
Chavez was a league-average hitter.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Aug 12, 2008 1:32 PM PDT
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Oh, and also...
you can’t “cut your losses.” This is baseball, not football. The A’s are paying Chavez one way or the other, so they might as well see if he can mount a comeback.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Aug 12, 2008 1:33 PM PDT
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DFA LOSSES NOW!!!
There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Aug 12, 2008 3:26 PM PDT
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could we at least cut our losses down to like 20 a month?
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on
Aug 12, 2008 3:30 PM PDT
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we have to hit bottom first, then go cold turkey
There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Aug 12, 2008 3:38 PM PDT
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Sign Manny!!!
for up to 5/$100M
OK, as much as would love it, and it makes sense to:
1) Create a buzz while the Giants are down
2) Take the pressure off the younger guys—Barton, Buck, Carlos
3) Get one of the all time greats, not some pseudo “undervalued” loser—Loaiza, Kendall, you know the list (Did I mention how sick I am of the word “undervalued”?)
4) Get someone durable, and surprisingly low risk, compared to Burrell (at least according to PECOTA)
5) He’d fit into our budget.
....I don’t think it’s likely to happen. In which case I’d pass on FAs.
I’m opposed to Furcal and Glaus because of their injury histories and age, unless Furcal comes on a one-year deal, but I doubt he will. I’m against McPherson because his stats are a mirage. 39 HR and 17 2B screams park effects to me.
Barring Manny I’d rather go with our in-house OF options - Buck, Carlos, Cust, Sweeney, Cunningham - than anyone on that list.
I’d rather deal with SS and 3B through trades - Asdrubal Cabrera, Brandon Wood, Wilson Betemit - than any of those guys.
If they’re in contention in July, I’d try and get Matt Holliday for prospects - Simmons/Mazzaro/Eveland/Smith, Carignan/Demel/Lansford/Italiano, Sweeney and Doolittle/Sulentic - or some such package, obviously less if they can manage that. Don’t touch Cahill, Anderson, Carter or Henry.
So for me it’s Manny or bust.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 1:02 AM PDT
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If we're going crazy ...
lets go really crazy and bring in Mark Teixeira.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Aug 12, 2008 1:09 AM PDT
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Ya but he'd need longer than 5 years -- does 8/$180 sound right to you for what he'll get?
Is he worth that? I still have the illusion that Barton’s gonna be a good 1B. Manny’s cheaper and shorter contract length. Plus he’s more fun.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 1:54 AM PDT
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He cannot sign for 8 years in California
Its a state law… I believe the longest contracts for employees can be 7 years max.
The Stockton Ports pitching staff is better than the Orioles.
by gdub171 on
Aug 12, 2008 9:26 AM PDT
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Then we have no chance.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 10:49 AM PDT
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Not really a problem.
One year player options after the seventh year. Assuming of course the A’s are even interested.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
by alox on
Aug 12, 2008 11:43 AM PDT
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No, that's not the case
When we had that debate here a few weeks ago (it was a great discussion), I ended up asking Keith Law, who asked an MLB agent friend of his, and he confirmed that the Collective Bargaining Agreement overrides that.
A California baseball player CAN still sign an 8-year deal despite that law.
"Innings eater? Depends on whether you want delicious innings or burnt, moldy innings. Kirk Saarloos is the Hot Pockets of inning eaters." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by notsellingjeans on
Aug 12, 2008 6:15 PM PDT
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Very interesting
and good to know
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Aug 12, 2008 6:16 PM PDT
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I figured that was the case, but didn't know for sure.
"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds
by UncleLeo on
Aug 12, 2008 6:20 PM PDT
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Not an inspiring list ...
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Aug 12, 2008 1:10 AM PDT
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Not that it fixes the offense ...
but Adam Everett might make a lot of sense …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Aug 12, 2008 1:14 AM PDT
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Has he kept up his defensive greatness at short with the injuries he's had?
Because being, by far, the best defensive shortstop in baseball is worth the money even with his bat if he’s still that good.
by thejd44 on
Aug 12, 2008 1:18 AM PDT
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Interesting idea
and it would seem to jibe with the team’s recent preference of prioritizing defense over hitting (Barton, Hannahan retaining their jobs, Davis retaining his roster spot).
"Innings eater? Depends on whether you want delicious innings or burnt, moldy innings. Kirk Saarloos is the Hot Pockets of inning eaters." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by notsellingjeans on
Aug 12, 2008 1:28 AM PDT
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"prioritizing defense over hitting"
that was a lazy and incorrect statement, but I do think it’s probably fair to say the A’s philosophically seem to loathe starting bad defensive infielders at this point, and have made decisions that seem to be rewarding good defenders.
"Innings eater? Depends on whether you want delicious innings or burnt, moldy innings. Kirk Saarloos is the Hot Pockets of inning eaters." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by notsellingjeans on
Aug 12, 2008 1:31 AM PDT
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And then there's Crosby
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 1:55 AM PDT
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If Nelson Cruz still hasn't been offered a 40-man roster spot by the Rangers,
I’d love for the A’s to offer him a major league contract this offseason. Pretty darn impressive year, even though he’s failed in MLB before.
"Innings eater? Depends on whether you want delicious innings or burnt, moldy innings. Kirk Saarloos is the Hot Pockets of inning eaters." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by notsellingjeans on
Aug 12, 2008 1:12 AM PDT
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Cruz will undoubtedly be protected or else traded or both....
Charlie Brown GO A'S WIN
by Charlie Brown on
Aug 12, 2008 11:20 AM PDT
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Two potential types of FA for next year
Someone with more time on their hands could do a more thorough analysis, but I think the A’s are unlikely to be competitive next year, so the only FA’s that might make sense are:
1) Cheap gap fillers who will get at bats while we let our young studs mature in the minors- see Brown, Emil
2) Long-term solutions where we lack options in the minors for 2010+
Looking at the list of hitters, there are likely some of type 1, but I don’t really see any of type 2. For type 1, maybe Blake, McPherson, Crede, or Helms if we don’t think one of our recently acquired 2nd Basemen can’t handle 3rd.
Given the sad state of our pitching rotation, it might make sense to risk some money on a starting pitcher. While it seems every FA pitcher automatically bombs, there are a few #3/4 types who could help us eat some innings if their price doesn’t explode – Wolf, Od. Perez, Looper. If you think these guys are not any better than anything we already have, then it doesn’t make sense. But if you think they have some upside for 2010/2011 when we’re competitive, it might be worth the gamble.
Of course, we could open the checkbook and sign Sheets or Sabathia to anchor the rotation with all the young kids. Given all the young kids, our core payroll will likely be low for a long time (all those overslot bonuses add up, but don’t close the $30MM gap that has opened up since last year). I don’ think it will happen, but it would be fun.
Signatures? We don't need no stinking signatures.
by jubjub on
Aug 12, 2008 1:25 AM PDT
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"The sad state of our pitching rotation"
Where do people come up with this stuff?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Aug 12, 2008 1:36 PM PDT
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We're only the best in baseball
This year’s rotation in terms of BAA/OPS
3 in baseball this year in ERAAnd one of the top 2 minor league systems in baseball (mostly on the strength of our pitching prospects).
Other than all that, of course, our rotation sucks. Great point jubjub.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Aug 12, 2008 6:19 PM PDT
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I think he is talking about the pitching as it is now
ERA of 5.22 since the AS break.
Of course Eveland was a good reason for the ERA as are Smith, Duke, Embree and Street just to name a few. And that is currently, pretty sad.
It will get better but I anticipate our ERA to be over 4 by the end of the year.
I hate unproductive outs and the A's are producing them at record production
by Trainman on
Aug 12, 2008 6:29 PM PDT
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Maybe
But even with that awful stretch (that many have been predicting as Smith/Eveland were due to hit the wall in their first MLB season) we’ve got one of the best aggregate staffs in baseball with a lot of highly regarded prospects on the way.
Our staff is in a sorry state the way our offense is on a roll.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Aug 12, 2008 6:31 PM PDT
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re
Most importantly, the A’s have to sign or trade for a third baseman. Blalock and McPherson are the only two FAs that are any good and the A’s can afford. It would be pretty damn disappointing to start next year with Hannahan as the starter (and would be a clear sign that the A’s are punting the season.) The A’s have always loved Blalock. Personally hope they don’t go that route since he’ll probably end up injured.
Other than a third baseman, I don’t expect a major acquisition. Maybe maybe Giambi, but he may have other teams in on him for more money (including the Yankees.) I don’t expect the A’s will want to spend on Dunn or Burrell (or Manny, obviously.) Second base is Mark Ellis or nobody. If the A’s don’t get something done with Ellis before free agency, I think there is a chance the interest on him will be light and the A’s might end up getting him for 3/20. I think he only comes back at a great bargain for the A’s. Oh, Big Frank for $1m or less to compete Cust.
I don’t want to be a downer, but I think we’d be wise to have very low expectations for the offseason.
by 31Boots on
Aug 12, 2008 1:48 AM PDT
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The problem with this offseason
is that there is waaaay more money than talent out there right now. We are going to see some absolutely ridiculous sums of money thrown around this year and I just dont see the A’s being a part of it for multiple reasons. The first being that there just flat out aren’t many guys worth throwing a bunch of money at. Despite the injuries, Furcal is still the best shortstop on the market and is going to get paid. With the exception of Dunn and Tex, all of the impact bats available are on the wrong side of 30 and are all going to want (and get) long term deals. The second reason is that we still dont know what holes need to be adressed.
Is Daric Barton still in our long term plans at 1b?
Is Eric Chavez’s career at 3rd over?
Do we bring Frank Thomas back?
Do we risk blocking someone like Cunningham by sigining an outfielder?
So basically, we know we need a shortstop and maybe a 1B/OF.
We’re better off waiting a year when we have more money off the books (Goodbye Crosby!) and have a better idea of what we really have.
If we are to make a splash this year however, I personally would make a hard push for Dunn. He is a middle of the order bat the likes of which we havent had in a while, and at 29 is still relatively young. He can play OF or 1B depending on which prospect succeeds or fails and his price may not be too ridiculous assuming there are other GM’s out there who feel the same as J.P. Ricciardi. We also wont lose our 1st round pick as its likely to be protected at the rate were going. That pipe dream aside, I think Rocco Baldelli is an intriguing low risk, high reward possibility. Give him a Thomas-esque incentive laden deal and see how he does. I also would be all for signing Barry Bonds. I know many dont agree, but I also know the man can hit, and the A’s can’t. If we landed Bonds on a one year deal, signed Dunn to play 1B, and brought back Frank, we could have a lineup of:
RF Ryan Sweeney
C Kurt Suzuki
LF Barry Bonds
DH Frank Thomas
1B Adam Dunn
3B Eric Chavez (Hopefully)
CF Carlos Gonzalez
SS Bobby Crosby
2B Eric Patterson
I know this aint likely to happen, but we could conceivably have this awesome lineup to go with our phenomenal pitching staff and still have a payroll under $60 million. Chavez slides over to 1st and Dunn to left when Bonds or Thomas needs a day off. Everyone’s healthy and happy. Including the fans. I could deal with all of Bonds’ BS if I got to see that lineup everyday. And who knows? There might be a few more people sitting next to me at the ballpark that want to see it too.
"May our feet be swift. May our bats be mighty. And may our balls be...plentiful."
by nothinlikethetown on
Aug 12, 2008 3:23 AM PDT
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Bonds will be dealing with court stuff next year
and/or could be in or headed to jail
by A'sfaninNC on
Aug 12, 2008 12:02 PM PDT
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If Baldelli shows healthy,
signing him as a pure DH makes some sense—use him carefully and you can probably squeeze 400 good AB out of him, most of those against lefties.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Aug 12, 2008 1:39 PM PDT
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I feel so sorry for him
He played a pretty good OF before his injury situation. It’s sad that he has only DH type optimism now.
by rightbackin on
Aug 12, 2008 1:50 PM PDT
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I don't know that DHing will solve his issues
It sounds like his problem is an inability to heal at the mitochondria level, from things like “muscle fatigue” which could even come from “ordinary wear and tear” let alone any random injury you can sustain hitting or running. It sounds kind of like a hemophiliac trying to make it as an acupuncturist.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Aug 12, 2008 4:39 PM PDT
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Sure
but the less wear and tear he suffers, the less he’s going to risk injury, and running around the outfield is a much more stressful (to the body) situation than DHing.
Look at Milton Bradley’s games played this year compared to last year. I suspect Bradley has a less severe version of what Baldelli has, or something with similar (if milder) effects.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Aug 12, 2008 5:13 PM PDT
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I thought Bradley's was attitudria
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Aug 12, 2008 5:20 PM PDT
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I wonder if Baldelli's power will be gone(?)
You gotta figure his condition limits his ability to have decent workouts in the gym.
"Innings eater? Depends on whether you want delicious innings or burnt, moldy innings. Kirk Saarloos is the Hot Pockets of inning eaters." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by notsellingjeans on
Aug 12, 2008 6:17 PM PDT
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I read in SportingNews
that he was hitting the ball hard in the minors. Just how long he can sustain that is probably affected by his condition.
by rightbackin on
Aug 12, 2008 6:26 PM PDT
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Trade for Third Baseman & Shortstop!
No doubt we desperately need a third baseman who is major league material (and who can stay off the DL for more than 2 weeks) and a shortstop who can hit. I would stay away from any broken down, worn out end of career veteran and concentrate on the young and available. Yeh, I know- Lewis Wolf won’t part with the duckies to get anyone of any major talent, so we’re stuck looking for the hidden gems. My advice- don’t bring Thomas back and tell Cust to go sell used cars somewhere. Give every rookie in our farm system a chance to prove themselves and and go with the youth.
The greenmachine
by greenmachine on
Aug 12, 2008 5:08 AM PDT
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brian giles back when beane coveted him: impressive hitter.
brian giles no longer on steroids: average hitter.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on
Aug 12, 2008 5:21 AM PDT
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Wouldn't Giles 2008 127 OPS+ lead the A's?
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 10:26 AM PDT
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2006-2008
how does his OPS+ compare to the average RF?
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on
Aug 12, 2008 11:13 AM PDT
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I don't know where to get that. Can you enlighten me? It's a good question.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 11:20 AM PDT
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In 2008 ...
the average AL RFer has a 113 OPS+
the average NL RFer has a 110 OPS+
This is assuming that the average player plays in an average park.
I don’t know that this information exists anywhere on the web, other than this post—I just did the calculations myself. It’s not hard.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Aug 12, 2008 11:28 AM PDT
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So that would make Giles a very good signing, yes?
Especially if you can get him at a somewhat discounted price. I’m guessing he wants to stay in Cali somewhere if he can since his family is here.
by Blez on
Aug 12, 2008 11:31 AM PDT
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the giles brothers are totally juiced, i’d rather stick with frank thomas for a year.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on
Aug 12, 2008 11:35 AM PDT
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Well would the Giles brothers be someone the A's should look into teaming up for 1-2 years?
The combo of them (which would come at a discount one would think) could bridge the gap till the young guys are ready to go.
by A'sfaninNC on
Aug 12, 2008 12:04 PM PDT
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+1
I strongly agree with this xbh. I’ve long thought that Marcus’ career stat lines relative to age and steroid testing are suspicious.
"Innings eater? Depends on whether you want delicious innings or burnt, moldy innings. Kirk Saarloos is the Hot Pockets of inning eaters." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by notsellingjeans on
Aug 12, 2008 6:19 PM PDT
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That means he has been an above average RFer this year ...
he wasn’t (assuming average was roughly the same) either of the two years before that and, of course, he continues to age. Offensively, his upside is basically Jack Cust—but with quite a bit more downside, defensively he’s probably a little bit above average.
Does he make the team better? Probably. Are there better ways to spend that money/roster spot? I think there probably are … (especially give our 40-man crunch, adding a FA means losing a prospect—while I’m not necessarily against it, it’s a factor weighing against a moderate upgrade)
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Aug 12, 2008 11:37 AM PDT
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if it's a choice between Giles and kraut ...
There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Aug 12, 2008 11:47 AM PDT
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Well, I mean, how good of kraut are we talking about?
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Aug 12, 2008 12:00 PM PDT
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10-15 WS
(weiss sausages)
There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Aug 12, 2008 12:20 PM PDT
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Huh?
we know how Beane has craved a right-handed bat for a while now
Let’s fix that:
we know how Beane AN has craved a right-handed bat for a while now
What is this bizarre righty fetish?
Children, until we have taught them better, will be perfectly happy with a seasonal round of games in which conkers succeeds hopscotch.
by salb918 on
Aug 12, 2008 5:51 AM PDT
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Manny certainly qualifies as a bizarre righty
There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Aug 12, 2008 6:14 AM PDT
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Dunn's still my horse
Because I think a lot of teams won’t enter the bidding since they’ll make like the AN trolls and say “TOO MANY STRICKOUTS. He hits .233?!? He SUKCS”
If he actually gets expensive I don’t like him as much but I see the rare opportunity for an elite offensive performer at relatively bargain prices. If we could get him for like 5/65 or something I’d be thrilled. If it requires 7/125 he’s not my horse any more.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Aug 12, 2008 6:16 AM PDT
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I don't see who's out there better for a 7 year deal better than him
other than Teixiera. The difference between the two looks mostly like defense.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 10:28 AM PDT
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STRICKOUTS!!!!111
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Aug 12, 2008 10:35 AM PDT
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I thought strickouts were the best kind of out now.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 10:49 AM PDT
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With 32 HR's in early August?
Shoot, I’ll take those strikeouts all day … Dunn will probably finish with 40-45 HR’s this year. Now those are the kind of power numbers that make the K’s much easier to swallow.
I needed a team so I wouldn’t turn into one of the eighty million pink hat-wearing Bud Light-drinking mulleted idiots at Fenway.
by Vacafan on
Aug 12, 2008 11:11 AM PDT
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I'll bet Cust would have 40 homers if he played in Dunn's park
If Dunn comes to the AL his numbers will suffer.
"Innings eater? Depends on whether you want delicious innings or burnt, moldy innings. Kirk Saarloos is the Hot Pockets of inning eaters." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by notsellingjeans on
Aug 12, 2008 6:22 PM PDT
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True
but he has the kind of HR distance that the Coliseum won’t always gobble up.
And walks translate very well
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Aug 12, 2008 6:24 PM PDT
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I like the idea of a two Cust offense
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 13, 2008 8:41 AM PDT
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It's true.
Any nugget of old school baseball wisdom is worthless unless there is an equation for it. I’m teaching my kid to swing as hard as they can every single time because it doesn’t matter if they make contact.
"PECOTA can pretty much kiss my ass."-Nico
by jeepers on
Aug 12, 2008 12:51 PM PDT
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Well
You’ll notice that 7/125 is a lot more each year (and a longer contract is riskier). I like Dunn because I think he’d be a bargain, but not if he costs a ton and we have to pay him in his late 30s
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Aug 12, 2008 6:24 PM PDT
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He's only 28. A 7 year deal carries him through his age 35 season.
I’d ask for that too, if I were he. Somebody will give it to him. Whoever doesn’t get Teixeira, or someone who wants an OF-1B rather than Teixeira. Mets? Yankees? Nats? Astros? Giants? Dodgers? Rockies? Padres? Mariners? Tigers? Royals?
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 13, 2008 8:45 AM PDT
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My preference: Manny/Dunn/Giambi
Who I think Beane will actually sign: Kent/Garciaparra
There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Aug 12, 2008 6:26 AM PDT
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If Garciaparra can play 3d, fine
I’d be shocked if our 2b isn’t Ellis or Patterson next year.
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Aug 12, 2008 9:04 AM PDT
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either would be more of a platoon/1B/PH/DH/role player/emergency backup IF
Again, I’m not (necessarily) advocating signing either, just that they would fit with Beane’s established FA pattern. I also don’t think, even with the room on the payroll, that ‘09 is when Beane locks up an elite FA talent; it ain’t necessarily contingent on Fremont progressing (though that wouldn’t hurt), but more that ‘10 seems to be more the target for our current prospect talent horizon to start maturing. None of the elite ‘09 FAs are of the world-beater class to jump in on and pay for a year of projected not-really-quite-contending in ‘09.
There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Aug 12, 2008 9:34 AM PDT
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Why couldn't we contend in 2009 with an elite FA?
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 10:29 AM PDT
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I think we *could* ...
... and I don’t think that Beane thinks we can’t, or that he’ll torpedo whatever (small or large) chance we do have—but I also don’t think that he’s aiming at fully optimizing the team until ‘10.
All that said, I think that it’ll take more than just signing an elite offensive FA to boost the offense next year—especially since the starting pitching isn’t guaranteed to mature/optimize yet.
There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Aug 12, 2008 10:51 AM PDT
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This supports "see where we are in July and maybe go for Holliday hypothesis"
The problem I’m seeing is the even worse FA crop after 2009—
Beltre, Crawford, Guerrero, Holliday, Giles, Kearns—anyone else tickle your fancy? I still think they’d be better off with a veteran middle of the order guy to take the pressure off the young guys.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 11:13 AM PDT
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Bay, signed after 2009?
He’s not going to be old and the guy can hit. He’s also a good fielder and in good physical shape, not likely to suddenly decline.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Aug 12, 2008 12:45 PM PDT
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Fun calculations with PECOTA
2012 EqA (Manny’s 4th year, Bay’s 3rd year)
50th percentile projecton -
Manny - .289
Bay—.280
25th percentile projection -
Manny - .267
Bay—.259
To be fair, Bay’s projections are based to a high degree on his bad and injured 2007. 2008 50th percentile EqA projection vs actual
Bay - .289 projected, .327 with Pirates, .305 with Red Sox
Manny - .302 projected, .318 with Red Sox, .457 with Dodgers
If posting this is a violation, please feel free to delete.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 1:04 PM PDT
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why would that be a violation, too statty?
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on
Aug 12, 2008 3:32 PM PDT
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I think you have to pay for PECOTA projections
Either by buying Baseball Prospectus, or by subscribing to their website.
...and the future is now!
by gio_is_the_future on
Aug 12, 2008 3:43 PM PDT
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Yes but XBX's explanation is funnier
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 4:03 PM PDT
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I imagine the Red Sox will want to keep him though
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Aug 12, 2008 6:26 PM PDT
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I don't. He seems like a mid 30s collapse waiting to happen.
They’ve also got Anderson and Reddick coming up. Youkilis can move to LF or 3B.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 13, 2008 8:48 AM PDT
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No Garciaparra
He’s injured 90 percent of the time.
I hate unproductive outs and the A's are producing them at record production
by Trainman on
Aug 12, 2008 9:41 AM PDT
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Yes, but he always gives 150%
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 10:29 AM PDT
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Sadly, 150% given 10% of the time
is still only 15%. Even more sadly, it’s still better than Hannahan.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Aug 12, 2008 10:36 AM PDT
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110% of 6.75%?
every winning streak ends with taking your underpants off. @('.')@
by Leopold Bloom on
Aug 12, 2008 3:10 PM PDT
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Kent's hanging it up
This is his last year.
I suspect Nomar may be retiring too… the guy is a hollow shell of his old self.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Aug 12, 2008 1:41 PM PDT
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I think Beane will go (Stay) young.
We are rebuilding and trading away players like HRod, Mazzaro and Sweeney for someone over 30 is not going to happen. Beane could have traded for Rasmus when he traded Harden but the Cards wanted Sweeney and Beane wouldn’t give him up. I think Beane likes the nucleus of players he has now and will try to upgrade on 3B and maybe even SS.
Every time I read these articles I wonder what BB thinks. Many don’t like Crosby or our current replacements for SS or even 2B but I have a feeling that BB figures one of the bunch he has in AAA and AA will fit in at both positiions.
So, how do we trade for a quality young 3B and maybe a good SS as a throw in. In the offseason we will still have Duke to dangle, sounds like a fishing story with your dangling duke. Anyway, the most likely to go in a trade are current older veterans not the guys BB has just traded for.
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
by Eastbayjim on
Aug 12, 2008 6:50 AM PDT
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I agree about staying young and seeking guys
in their mid-20s over guys in their 30s. That’s why I can see the A’s going after Kouzmanoff or LaRoche, rather than the FA list, in the attempt to solve 3B. I kind of wonder if a Patterson-Kouzmanoff based deal might help both sides. The Padres have Headley for 3B, and it seems to me as if Patterson would be an ideal hitter for Petco – a park which punishes power hitters but rewards speedy gap hitters. I could see Patterson hitting a ton of triples for the Padres, who need offense but won’t get it by signing power hitters because of their ballpark.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Aug 12, 2008 8:36 AM PDT
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That sounds good for the Padres if they've given up on Antonelli.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 10:31 AM PDT
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I think I would feel better about myself as a person...
...cheering Frank Thomas over Barry Bonds.
And even if Frank only plays in 1/3 of the games, I think having him in the clubhouse is an immense help for the young guys. Now, we just need to figure out who inherits the rebar.
by LoneStranger on
Aug 12, 2008 8:31 AM PDT
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Juan Rivera or Jason Giambi
I could see Beane signing Juan Rivera (Angels) and/or Jason Giambi to a FA Deals. Rivera could platoon w/ R.Sweeney / Buck / Cust. Giambi as insurance for 1B/DH. Otherwise, I just don’t see Beane sticking his nose into large FA deals in October/November of 2008.
by Colorado Fan on
Aug 12, 2008 8:37 AM PDT
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The way I see the A's being competitive in 2009 is by adding
three hitters: an incumbent, a free agent, and a trade.
The incumbent is Chavez – he needs to play wherever does not harm his hitting, whether that’s 3B, 1B, or DH. If you look at what he did this year before throwing hurt his shoulder which hurt his batting, he was outstanding. Just make sure he can hit in 2009 as priority one and only.
The free agent can be any of the power hitters who is most cost-effective, something Beane won’t know until the bidding begins. Whether it’s Burrell, Glaus, Giambi, Giles (who is hitting .296/.389/.440, for an .828 OPS in a pitcher’s park, by the way), or Dunn on a one, two, or long-term deal, doesn’t matter as long as one of them gets inked. Rivera would be a B+ compromise, but not a bad one.
The trade could be Kouzmanoff or LaRoche – the A’s ought to be able to land Kouzmanoff without giving up the “untouchables” of the young team going forward; not sure what getting LaRoche would require.
Add those three parts to the existing crew of Cust, Gonzalez, Suzuki, Sweeney, and Cunningham, and you’re in business. Seems quite doable to me.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Aug 12, 2008 8:50 AM PDT
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This seems like an ideal plan for the short term.
One minor thing of note is that Glaus is not going to be a free agent this winter. His 2009 option year was exercised as part of the agreement to send him to St Louis. That’s one less power option in a free agent class that isn’t looking very strong in that area.
Giles and Giambi look to be the best short-term, DH/1B/corner outfield options. I also think Neil Walker (see my fanpost) could be a possibility for the “trade” target you mention.
I'm never gonna do it without the fez on!
by Taj Adib on
Aug 12, 2008 9:55 AM PDT
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Do you mean Giles is a better player than Dunn / Burrell
Or that you think he’s a more likely acquisition?
"There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" -Bill Watterson
by nevermoor on
Aug 12, 2008 6:27 PM PDT
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You have to go back to 2004 to a time when Chavez’s bat would be enough to play an above average first or DH. If he can’t play third, he’s not a valuable player.
I’d like Kouzmanoff too, but I wouldn’t hold my breath, not sure you have the right read there. It doesn’t make sense for the Pads to give him up unless they get a big package in return. The rumors are they’re cutting payroll up to thirty million dollars next season, and he’s the exact type of solid but unspectacular player who keeps costs down (now and in the future). Plus, they don’t have hitting on the way. Loathe to speculate what they’d ask for; can’t imagine it wouldn’t start (start) with Cahill, Anderson, or Gio, probably followed closely by Buck or Sweeney to replace Headley, and most likely plus one more…blech. I like Simmons, Mazzarro, and Hank Rodriguez also (Smith, Eveland, Patterson, etc..), but I don’t think any teams are going to be falling over themselves to give the A’s good young major league hitters for them. That’s a pipe dream.
LaRoche is problematic as well. He’s got inflated value to that team as the best player in the Bay deal.
by 31Boots on
Aug 12, 2008 10:03 AM PDT
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The theory ...
is that if he plays first, he’ll be healthy, if he’s healthy, he’ll hit. Is it true? Who knows? Only one way to find out.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Aug 12, 2008 10:13 AM PDT
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I think you might be overstating Kouzmanoff's value, 31Boots
For example, I would think an OFer (Buck/Sweeney), Patterson, and Eveland would be an awfully good deal for the Padres. If I were them, I’d jump at that deal with Headley waiting to take over 3B. Also, with Trevor Hoffmann’s career finally winding down and Linebrink gone, Street (if he rebounds the last month) should have appeal. Add Mazzaro to the pot and there’s a deal there which would still leave the A’s nucleus in great shape going forward.
As for Chavez’ bat, I only have to go back to June, 2007 to see a worthy 1Bman or DH. It would have been interesting had Chavy come back as DH instead of trying to play 3B. His bat looked terrific until his shoulder started hurting from playing 3B. I’m skeptical as to whether 3B is still in Chavez’ future, but more optimistic that he can still hit with authority if the A’s play their cards right with him.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Aug 12, 2008 10:15 AM PDT
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Yeah, that would be an awfully good deal for the Pads ... but an awful deal for the A's ...
Street for Kouz would also either be an example of drastic overpayment and/or selling a guy at his lowest possible value, that’s before adding in Mazzaro …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Aug 12, 2008 10:24 AM PDT
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I'd do Street for Kouz
We need a 3B, he’s a good player, 2 extra years… What’s not to like?
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on
Aug 12, 2008 10:36 AM PDT
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16 BB to 95 K. .320 OBP (league avg .325 park adjusted)
Mediocre defensive reputation and well below median ZR. Very little upside. Of course Street has his issues as well.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 10:44 AM PDT
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Probably below average fielder, but not by a whole lot
He doesn’t walk, and that’s bad, but he hits for power, and a higher average than we’re used to. If he keeps putting up a .275 or so eqa, that’s pretty valuable to a team with no 1Bman.
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on
Aug 12, 2008 10:53 AM PDT
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Right, he's got his virtues. I don't think he's worth a healthy Street though.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 11:25 AM PDT
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Well, I wouldn't do that trade
3 months ago.
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on
Aug 12, 2008 11:35 AM PDT
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A roughly average 3b for a closer who has generally been among the best in the game?
I’ll pass …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Aug 12, 2008 11:30 AM PDT
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Some of it's supply and demand, though
Street replaced by Devine is a wash to an upgrade (given the short but electric lifespan of many closers – you might catch a lot of lightning in Devine over the next 2-3 years). Hannahan replaced by Kouzmanoff is a significant boost to the lineup.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Aug 12, 2008 12:47 PM PDT
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But why not trade Street for someone better than Kouzmanoff?
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 1:09 PM PDT
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Can we trade Street for a SS or 3B better than Kouzmanoff? I don't know...
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on
Aug 12, 2008 1:12 PM PDT
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Asdrubal Cabrera?
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 1:53 PM PDT
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sure!
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on
Aug 12, 2008 1:54 PM PDT
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no take backs!
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on
Aug 12, 2008 3:32 PM PDT
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Okay, fine ...
but why sell Street when his value is at rock bottom?
And while Devine might adequately replace Street at closer, that leaves his setup position to be replaced and so on down the line …
We could get the same boost at the position, while keeping street by getting a moderately priced free agent … preferably an older one who won’t command a long term deal … Casey Blake, perhaps Nomar Garciaparra …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Aug 12, 2008 2:07 PM PDT
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I agree it's an awful deal for the A's
I was just trying to point out that you could use non Cahill-Anderson-Gio guys and still favor San Diego with the non-”untouchable” trade chips we have.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Aug 12, 2008 10:38 AM PDT
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I'm not sure Mazzaro is a mere throw in.
A 21 yo who dominated AA doesn’t grow on trees. I’d rather trade Simmons than Mazzaro. If not for all the offseason deals, he’d be our next rookie pitcher called up next year, and 2nd to Cahill in prospect hype.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 10:47 AM PDT
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I'd rather trade Mazzaro
He seems like the type whose trade value (upside) exceeds his actual ability/potential, whereas Simmons seems the opposite – a guy who will pitch well in the majors to the surprise of scouts who look at the radar gun and hits/IP.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Aug 12, 2008 10:50 AM PDT
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i'd rather not trade either
10 man rotation in 2010
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on
Aug 12, 2008 11:14 AM PDT
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Team A and Team B?
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 11:24 AM PDT
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will Team B wildly overestimate the strength of the opposition?
There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Aug 12, 2008 11:33 AM PDT
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Only if the opposition is Team A
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 12:09 PM PDT
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The nice thing about the 10 man rotation
is that you always have a good closer and set up man, based on whose day it is “to throw”.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Aug 12, 2008 12:48 PM PDT
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re
All you did was sub Eveland for Gio, lol. Yeah, maybe the Pads would go for that (I think they’d ask for one of the big three first guaranteed), but I can’t even fathom the A’s giving up that much for Kouzmanoff (either scenario.)
I assume you mean Chavez in 2008. He really wasn’t anything special at any point this year.
by 31Boots on
Aug 12, 2008 10:46 AM PDT
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Yes, I meant June, 2008
He looked great – and it’s the only time in the last 4 years he has hit without pain. If he can get back to that point, I think he can still be a plus hitter. I have my doubts about his ability to play 3B without his shoulder acting up, though.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Aug 12, 2008 10:51 AM PDT
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one of the big three?
give em mulder
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on
Aug 12, 2008 11:15 AM PDT
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I'd rather give them Zito ...
save the money … and the runs allowed …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Aug 12, 2008 11:31 AM PDT
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Nah - give 'em Huddy and re-sign him in 2010
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Aug 12, 2008 12:48 PM PDT
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There's only one name on that list worth adding
Juan Rivera
"Do you know that the guy really doesn't like baseball all that much?" - J.P. Riccardi
by black beane on
Aug 12, 2008 8:56 AM PDT
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Just FYI, since he came back from the broken leg
Rivera has had 200 ABs, and has an OBP under .300. This year he’s batting .232/.285/.391 for an OPS of .676. And his fielding is actually worse than Cust’s.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Aug 12, 2008 9:02 AM PDT
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which makes him all the more cheap
I would certainly take a flyer on him over trading a prospect for a minor league player who’s out for the whole season. And I would absolutely take a one or two year deal for him over signing a Pat Burrell to a lengthier deal.
As we’ve seen in Jermain Dye, it does take time to recover from a broken leg, but you can recover. I’ll consider Juan Rivera’s previous 1400 ABs with a great than 100 OPS+ more so than his last 200 ABs.
"Do you know that the guy really doesn't like baseball all that much?" - J.P. Riccardi
by black beane on
Aug 12, 2008 10:39 AM PDT
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terrible list
The A’s will bring someone in with a trade. Over supply of pitchers in the minors means someone will be traded. Look for a hitter having a bad year coming to oakland next year. A trade with the rockies for one of their 3b for a starter would be my best bet.
by Arcman on
Aug 12, 2008 9:29 AM PDT
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Travis Buck?
Have the A’s forgotten about him? I still have hope. Maybe it’s the hair.
by VORP is too nerdy on
Aug 12, 2008 9:34 AM PDT
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To me, this discussion is moot.
There’s really nothing in the A’s recent history to suggest that signing an impact-type free agent would even be a consideration. If this were the tail end of the rebuilding process, say 2010, then maybe, but even then I’d be doubtful. Signing anybody of that caliber for 2009 would be a waste of money for 2009 as the team would not be in a position to benefit fully… to hear many who buy into the rebuilding schedule hook-line-and-sinker tell it.
The A’s (Beane’s era, give or take) has been to sometimes try and retain their own impact-type free agents, i.e. Chavez, Dye, Giambi (didn’t re-sign, but they did try), etc., and to fill holes inexpensively with declining players who may still have a good year or two left in them.
"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds
by UncleLeo on
Aug 12, 2008 9:45 AM PDT
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Yes, but signing FA the A's way has been a dismail failure. Why wouldn't they try it a different
way? You forgot to mention Kendall (FA dollars, although not a FA) and Loaiza.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 10:36 AM PDT
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+1
If I may analogize the lineup to a car: the body is beat to shit. In 2008 the approach has been Bondo and sanding. Shiny new dealer quarter panels were not remotely considered.
I expect the 2009 A’s to be looking to squeeze another 16,200 miles out of the clunker before possibly paying to upgrade it in 2010. At which point, might I suggest a new clutch?
They want to steal the land papers which is why they have tried to break in. But they had to give up after being bitten by Chhotu.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on
Aug 12, 2008 10:37 AM PDT
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if Beane ever pays for undercoating, he should be fired
There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Aug 12, 2008 10:52 AM PDT
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chavy’s shoulder is kinda like a boombox made out of used car parts.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on
Aug 12, 2008 11:20 AM PDT
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Yah, but I'm sayin', that TruCoat, you don't get it and you get oxidization problems.

There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Aug 12, 2008 11:38 AM PDT
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You're darned tootin'!
I am Ray Fosse's infatuations with Clay Wood and high-definition television.
by franks a lot on
Aug 12, 2008 12:40 PM PDT
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You lied to me, Mr. Lundegaard. You're a bald-faced liar.
every winning streak ends with taking your underpants off. @('.')@
by Leopold Bloom on
Aug 12, 2008 3:13 PM PDT
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Why is McPherson is a free agent?
At this point in the success cycle, I’d rather see the A’s spend their money overpaying teenage Latin American free agents like Michael Inoa than overpaying aging veterans.
The only guy on that free agent list I’d want them to sign is Dallas McPherson, because he only has 2+ years of MLB service. Which means, however, that I think the list is wrong, and he isn’t eligible for free agency. With only 2+ years of MLB service, the Marlins have the right to keep him and renew his contract, just like any other player with similar service, unless somehow McPherson has a special agreement that he will be released after the season.
by kenarneson on
Aug 12, 2008 9:51 AM PDT
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Seems like he should be a MiLB free agent ...
since he isn’t an MLer and, presumably, signed a one year MiLB contract with the Marlins—meaning the team that signs him will have him for 3+ cost controlled years. (I believe)
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Aug 12, 2008 10:31 AM PDT
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He's on their 40-man roster now
"May a nit suck Cajun geese?" wonders Red. No, we see gnu Jack Cust in a yam.
by andeux on
Aug 12, 2008 10:34 AM PDT
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Ok ... never mind then ...
I have no clue …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Aug 12, 2008 11:40 AM PDT
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Let the young kids play and take their lumps together
Keep the money until we really need an impact player, and then go out and actually get one that matters. Not many of those names are too impressive. When you think about it, if Buck comes back and he’s healthy and Barton can get the monkey off his back and hits even halfway to his potential, the A’s will probably still be able to compete next year even with Hannahan and Crosby swinging lead pipes.
by NateHST on
Aug 12, 2008 10:19 AM PDT
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FA or no, they have to do something about the infield with trades.
Hannahan-Crosby-Patterson would be simply horrible.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 10:37 AM PDT
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{waggles finger at camera}
I was never on the back of that man—Daric Barton.
There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Aug 12, 2008 10:53 AM PDT
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Free agents
Since we are rebuilding I think we will sign free agents as stog gaps. We don’t need to give up talent to get them so the rebuilding isn’t affected and with them here we don’t need to suck as bad or rush our prospects. If they come at the right price I could see Branyan or McPherson at 3B to give time to Cardenas / whoever else. I think Crosby will stay until the end of his contract with Petit / Pennington as backups until the really young guys or future draft picks become ready.
Basically I think the next star is already in green and gold or in the minors and it’s only a matter of time.
RIVER CATS: AAA CHAMPS!
by niallmack on
Aug 12, 2008 10:31 AM PDT
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I agree, and that's why I think Giambi
could be more likely than the others: he could be a Frank Thomas “one year” – possibly incentive laden – solution to keep the A’s as competitive as possible during the rebuild. Same with Furcal, who might sign a one-year deal on the cheap to establish his health and hope for a bigger multi-year deal in 2010.
I wonder what it would cost just to sign those two guys to one-year deals. And go forward with something like this lineup in 2009:
Sweeney/Cunningham – RF
Cust – LF
Furcal – SS
Giambi – DH
Gonzalez – CF
Suzuki – C
Chavez or replacement – 3B
Ellis – 2B
Barton – 1B
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Aug 12, 2008 10:48 AM PDT
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I can see Furcal maybe signing a 1 year deal, although I doubt he'll have to.
But why would Giambi do it? He’s coming off a pretty good year.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 11:22 AM PDT
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I can see him getting Bondsed in the offseason
No way would I sign him until at least January or February.
There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Aug 12, 2008 11:49 AM PDT
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Does Jason have legal problems?
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 12:10 PM PDT
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Bonds' legal problems had NOTHING to do with his not being signed this year
There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Aug 12, 2008 12:32 PM PDT
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Well they could have had the effect
of giving GMs a “reason” not to sign Bonds. GMs could say, “with all the legal and other issues surrounding Bonds, we don’t want that media circus following our team around, so we decided to pass on Bonds.”
A GM would not have the same excuse available to him with Giambi as he has no media following him about, nor any rep for being a bad clubhouse guy.
I just dont think Giambi can get “Bondsed” as he does not have the nice built in excuses for not signing him.
by AsFanInLA on
Aug 12, 2008 1:41 PM PDT
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Bonds was colluded against
successfully, I might add.
You think the A’s toed the line on Bonds but will suddenly turn scab for Giambi? Not bloody likely.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Aug 12, 2008 1:48 PM PDT
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That's a pretty strong
assertion. One that the MLBPA wouldn’t let go unchallenged either. Bonds is an asshole, and no one really wants an aging, scandal ridden asshole cluttering up their clubhouse. Several teams hinted that they were considering signing him, but all of them weighed the evidence and decided he wasn’t worth the hassle. I’d have to agree with them.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
by alox on
Aug 12, 2008 2:03 PM PDT
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just because it can't be proven, doesn't mean it isn't true.
by theblackpearl on
Aug 12, 2008 3:28 PM PDT
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Right, but...
...the evidence against collusion is as strong as the evidence for collusion. Basically, there is no ‘smoking gun’ to suggest collusion, other than emotion.
"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds
by UncleLeo on
Aug 12, 2008 4:18 PM PDT
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The best player in the world, doesn't get called while players
fall left and right, on contending teams. What’s the rational reason for that? Don’t say the media, because the WS win will trump all distractions, and don’t say anything about the A’s, because they would not have been serious WS threats even with Bonds.
by theblackpearl on
Aug 12, 2008 4:32 PM PDT
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Two points...
1) He’s not the best player in the world anymore, and…
2) Nobody said the reasons had to be rational.
"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds
by UncleLeo on
Aug 12, 2008 6:12 PM PDT
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Even if you believe Bonds was colluded against
I don’t think that the same thing would happen to Giambi.
Hell, Bud would probably prefer Giambi to end up in Oakland. It would get him out of the media spotlight and move him into a media “black hole”. Moving him to a team like Oakland would garner less Giambi news stories then if Giambi were to not get a job, which would inspire more collusion stories in the news. Also, Giambi’s signing could be useful against the MLBPA if they file a collusion lawsuit on Bonds’ behalf.
Not really arguing if Bonds was colluded against one way or the other, I am saying that it seems like in Giambi’s case Bud would be better served if Giambi ended up in a non-media market rather then on the news nightly complaining about not having a job. Also, Giambi is not chasing any records, so is not “tainting” the game in that way either.
So, getting back to your post, I think that the A’s could actually “toe the line” in this case by signing Giambi rather then blacklisting him.
by AsFanInLA on
Aug 12, 2008 2:19 PM PDT
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The Bay Area is the third largest media market in the country ...
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Aug 12, 2008 2:33 PM PDT
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Really? By what measure?
Who are the top 5?
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 3:10 PM PDT
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I don't know ... one I seem to have made up at the time ...
depending on the measure it looks like its really between 4 and 6 …
NYC, LA and Chicago being 1-3 with Philly, Dallas, Boston and the Bay Area fighting over the next two spots in the top 5 …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Aug 12, 2008 3:49 PM PDT
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I think that makes sense. I assumed NY, LA, Chi 1-3
Philly makes sense because it covers So Jersey, Central Jersey and parts of Delaware. Boston and SFBA are basically the same size MSA. I wouldn’t have guessed Dallas over Houston though.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 4:06 PM PDT
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I would say, however
that neither the A’s nor the post-Bonds Giants are even in the top half of MLB teams in terms of nationwide media coverage.
by AsFanInLA on
Aug 13, 2008 2:02 PM PDT
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Well both teams do really, really suck ...
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Aug 13, 2008 2:05 PM PDT
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that's pretty similar to my guess as well
There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Aug 12, 2008 3:37 PM PDT
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I agree 100% on Bonds/collusion
Sorry, I should have clarified my prognostication on Giambi: I don’t think that there will be the same concerted effort that there was to deny Bonds a job this year, but that there may be a lot of teams who might otherwise sign Giambi but find it easier to just steer clear of the expense by choosing to see him as part of the same problem.
Bonds: colluded against. Giambi: collateral damage.
There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Aug 12, 2008 3:36 PM PDT
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IF... Bonds was colluded against...
...what was the reason? Legal issues? Suspected drug use? A-holeness? All of the above?
FWIW: I think Giambi’s “apology” will prove to be a brilliant stroke when all is said and done. Because of that, I doubt he’ll be severly affected in FA. If anything, it’ll be his performance consistency that’ll drag him down.
"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds
by UncleLeo on
Aug 12, 2008 4:22 PM PDT
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PR, pure and simple
Bonds is seen by the public and the low-info baseball fans as the nexus of bad PED juju. Blackballing Bonds and using a deadened ball enable Unka Bud to claim that MLB has eradicated PED use.
There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Aug 12, 2008 4:42 PM PDT
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If what you say is true...
...and I’m not saying it’s not… and MLB is as much entertainment as sport, and depends on attracting “non-fans” in ever increasing numbers to keep the revenue streams flowing… is PR still a non-issue?
"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds
by UncleLeo on
Aug 12, 2008 6:15 PM PDT
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still (when?) a non-issue for whom?
Not suite sure what exactly you’re asking there.
Yes, PR is certainly an issue for the low-info fan—who both wants to see that bum Bonds driven out of the game (to be fair, quite a few high-info fans do, as well … though they’re still often pretty darn selective/hypocritical in whom they wish to destroy) and see lots of offense. Ergo, blackball Bonds, introduce a tortoise ball … and then go back to the rabbit ball in a year or two.
Honestly, I think PR is more an issue to keep Arlen Specter and Henry Waxman off ownerships’ backs. I don’t think Congress will ever actually yank the antitrust exemption, but they do always require that MLB make the appropriate posturing.
There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Aug 12, 2008 6:43 PM PDT
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If they go back to the rabbit ball, A's new strategy focusing
on speed is gonna look pretty silly.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 13, 2008 8:50 AM PDT
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good point
That would certainly mitigate against my conspiracy-mongering … in favor of a different flavor of conspiracy-mongering!
Any major changes like that (either reintroducing, or quasi-permanently banishing, the rabbit ball) I’m certain would be communicated to Lew by Bud in advance of the fact.
All that said, MLB is ever more dependent on the low-info fan—and the HNW low-info fan, at that. I don’t think the stewards of the game will let offense ebb for very long.
There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Aug 13, 2008 11:25 AM PDT
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There's something really scary about Giambi, Thomas and Cust
in the same lineup…..though it would be interesting to see how many times all three homer or walk or strike out in the same inning. They’d be the TTOakland A’s or something. The problem would be that all three in a lineup means Cust and Giambi are wearing gloves. Besides, Giambi strikes me as overspend type of free agent, where the risk and sentiment won’t justify the reward. So I say stick with Cust and bring back Frank.
I’m also not a fan of overloading a lineup with the patient hitters. Part of what made A’s teams successful in the past was the mix of patient and aggressive hitters in the lineup. Now it’s almost like the A’s have developed a walk-first mentality, and I wish they were a little less selective with runners on base.
I’d like to see the A’s make offers to Crede and Furcal. It’d be nice to once again have a legit lead-off hitter who can piss off the opposing battery. And it would be nice to have a 3B who can provide 20-30 homer power from the right side.
"Lefty relievers are like the different Mountain Dew flavors. New ones keep appearing, and people are willing to buy, but in the end most of them suck." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by scatterbrian on
Aug 12, 2008 10:55 AM PDT
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The scary part would be...
Giambi and Thomas getting injured a lot. Especially if Chavez starts the season at 3rd base.
by IM4Oakgal on
Aug 12, 2008 10:58 AM PDT
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is this true?
Part of what made A’s teams successful in the past was the mix of patient and aggressive hitters in the lineup
Seems to me (though I certainly could be wrong) that the more successful of the Beane-era A’s offenses were patient up and down the lineup, and the “complementary” patient/aggro offensive mixes of the last couple years have been the underperformers.
There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Aug 12, 2008 11:52 AM PDT
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i don't know
but i just assumed OBP has stayed the same (until this year) and SLG is way down.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05
by xbhaskarx on
Aug 12, 2008 11:59 AM PDT
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Eh ... not really ...
2000 A’s (the team that scored the most runs - by a fair margin - during the BB years)
.270/.360/.458
IsoOBP .090
IsoSlg .188
2008 A’s
.244/.317/.366
Iso OBP .073
IsoSlg .122
Translation:
The 2008 A’s suck on offense in every regard.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Aug 12, 2008 12:08 PM PDT
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So the 2000 average hitter would be the best hitter on the 2008 team?
Different run environments and all, but…
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 12:13 PM PDT
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Comparing the 2000 offense to 2008's excuse for an offense
is apples and oranges. To me 1999-2002 was the peak of A’s offense in the Beane era (using team OPS+ rather than runs scored), and while there were patient hitters (Giambi, Jaha, Hatteberg, Stairs, Ruby) there were not-so-patient guys (Tejada, Hernandez, Byrnes, and to a degree Chavez and Dye). I haven’t sussed it out on a spreadsheet, it just seems that a more balanced approach works better. I would also think this approach makes it a little harder for an opposing pitcher to get comfy.
"Lefty relievers are like the different Mountain Dew flavors. New ones keep appearing, and people are willing to buy, but in the end most of them suck." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by scatterbrian on
Aug 12, 2008 12:50 PM PDT
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It also helps to have varied weapons when the opposing pitcher
is someone who gives up no HRs, or who stifles the running game, or who can only get lefties out, or who has great stuff but spotty command, etc.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Aug 12, 2008 12:53 PM PDT
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alrighty ...
Ramon Hernadez, Eric Chavez and Jermaine Dye all had higher IsoOBPs over that period than the team average this year.
Eric Byrnes was not a factor until 2003.
Miguel Tejada was consistently below average, though!
But then, his IsoOBP was comparable to Bobby Crosby … do you want more Bobby Crosbys on the team? No, of course not. The difference isn’t that those teams were more aggressive—it’s that they didn’t suck. It’s a lack of talent, not a lack of aggression that plagues this team.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Aug 12, 2008 2:16 PM PDT
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I think you're over-analyzing what I'm saying...
Of course I’m not saying I want more Crosby, and really Tejada and Crosby aren’t apt comparisons. Tejada hits for power.
Ramon, Jermaine and early Chavez weren’t walk guys. Yes, they’d take their pitches and they’d draw walks, but they’d also swing at the first pitch if they liked it. They wouldn’t work the count for the sake of working the count.
I’ll give you Byrnes though…sort of mentally calling out names there.
This also isn’t a thought that’s spawned from this season, it’s something I’ve been wondering about for a few years now. Really just an observation that A’s hitters seem to be taking more pitches. Also, that pitchers, knowing the A’s take pitches, seem to be throwing more strikes early in an attempt to get ahead.
IsoOBP, I’m assuming is OBP minus AVG? I don’t really like using numbers that way. OBP rates per plate appearance, AVG doesn’t. I’ll tackle it with BB/PA and P/PA when I have more time.
"Lefty relievers are like the different Mountain Dew flavors. New ones keep appearing, and people are willing to buy, but in the end most of them suck." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by scatterbrian on
Aug 12, 2008 3:13 PM PDT
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Miguel Tejada ...
saw 3.74 pitches per plate appearance over those three years.
Bobby Crosby has been at 3.78 over the last two.
The difference isn’t that Crosby takes pitches and Tejada didn’t. It’s that Crosby sucks and Miggie didn’t.
Ryan Sweeney, Kurt Suzuki, Emil Brown and Carlos Gonzalez are other regulars who see fewer pitches per plate appearance than Miggie did.
There hasn’t been any shift in philosophy or anything. This team has just as many free-ish swingers as those teams. It’s that this team sucks at hitting and those teams didn’t.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Aug 12, 2008 3:45 PM PDT
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I'm not sure how this became a Tejada/Crosby issue?
maybe you can post their suck ratios for their careers so I can get a better handle on them as players.
"Lefty relievers are like the different Mountain Dew flavors. New ones keep appearing, and people are willing to buy, but in the end most of them suck." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by scatterbrian on
Aug 12, 2008 3:50 PM PDT
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Just an example ...
since, as I earlier showed, Miggie was the most aggressive of the significant players from those years, by showing that he appears to have been less aggressive than several players from the current team, I am showing that this team is not actually less aggressive than those teams, which was your assertion. It is just less talented.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Aug 12, 2008 4:13 PM PDT
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I agree with you,
there were definitely better hitters on the older teams. But better hitters means more hitters getting pitched around, and that means more pitches and walks. Crappy hitters with patience but no power aren’t going to be handled the same.
Again this is just an observation, and one I’m not sure how to research. We’re talking about different groups of players who are hitting in different run-scoring environments, as well as under stricter drug regulations.
"Lefty relievers are like the different Mountain Dew flavors. New ones keep appearing, and people are willing to buy, but in the end most of them suck." - Gallagher's Watermelons
by scatterbrian on
Aug 12, 2008 4:55 PM PDT
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There's much better data available today ...
with the pitch data that’s out there, allowing you to know what kind of pitches batters are taking and swinging at—whether they are strikes or balls, close or way outside, etc …
Unfortunately, that data was not gathered until the last couple of years, so a backwards comparison like that is not possible …
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback
by devo on
Aug 12, 2008 7:05 PM PDT
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Collusion would necessarily entail
conspiracy. If anyone thinks Bud could conspire with at least 30 people, all of whom would keep the secret from a prying media, I’d love to sell you some stuff. I have no problem believing Bud would make his personal feelings known to the owners, but that’s a damn sight short of collusion.
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer
by alox on
Aug 12, 2008 3:20 PM PDT
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Color me interested...
What are you selling?
...and the future is now!
by gio_is_the_future on
Aug 12, 2008 3:44 PM PDT
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I think the main difference is that in the early part of the decade
the A’s had mostly good hitters, whereas in the latter part they have had mostly terrible hitters. “What kind of suck” is not that important when dealing with the range of “suck - suck”.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal
by Nico on
Aug 12, 2008 12:51 PM PDT
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Fun with MLE FIP from minorleaguesplits.com
Mazzaro - 3.42 (counting both Midland and Sacramento)
Simmons - 4.66
Fun with MLE ERALF (supposedly the same as DIPS) from Baseball Prospectus (Regular Translation)
Mazzaro - 4.15 (Midland only)
Simmons - 4.89
OK Mazzaro’s HR/Fly probably isn’t sustainable, and this may turn out to be a career year for him, but there’s still a lot to recommend him over Simmons.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 11:06 AM PDT
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Ugh. This was supposed to be a reply to Nico's Simmons over Mazzaro comment.
Reply…Reply…Reply
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 12, 2008 11:07 AM PDT
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Interesting Situation. Good points by all so far.
I think that the A’s should bring in a few free agents as their payroll is not that high and many of our best prospects are a year away. They brought in a few this year (Foulke, Brown, Mike Sweeney) not counting Frank Thomas. I think they should add 4 maybe 5 (1 a minor league contract similar to Mike Sweeney.
They should add-
1- A proven hitter (should be the only high priced)
2- A veteran starter. (depth/ competition for rotation)
3- A back-up catcher (give the minor league contract here).
4- Frank Thomas
5- IF, Ellis leaves they should add a veteran to compete with Patterson for job.
I think that they should sign at least one proven hitter this off-season. I really believe that aside from payroll/ budget that the A’s should consider the free agent’s ability to play multiple positions. We have about 8-10 whose major league performance can go any way next season. I mean Travis Buck or Eric Chavez can come back strong likewise someone like R. Sweeney can have a bad year. Who knows what performance you will get out of Crosby? That’s why I think that the A’s should counsider the advantages of a free agent who can play multiple spots as to avoid blocking a guy from playing who is ready and performing but at the same time be able to fill a hole.
Two guys who I think might be worth looking at are Garciaparra (who has been mentioned) and Chipper Jones. Chipper could play the outfield if the A’s had someone good at 3B, or he could play 3B if the OF was full. I would also imagine that he could play 1B. I would support bringing him in for say 3,4,5 years (he could be moved to DH in time). He can still hit, gets lots of walks and has decent power. I think however, that the Braves want him back and he probably would prefer to stay in the south. However, as aging veterans go he is someone who could be a good fit.
Also, IF Ellis does not return. I think the A’s should find a veteran Free agent to play 2B for 2 years. I am not saying that he needs to be a star, however if Patterson does not work out, this guy could play 2B until Weeks or Cardenas was ready. Jose Valentin would be a decent guy in this role. He would be cheap and could also play 1b, 3B.
I would look for a veteran starter who could be found for a decent price. Someone who could help with the younger guys and maybe be a decent #4 starter. As to names, I would just see what the market bears. This is not an urgent need but someone may be available for a decent price.
Frank Thomas- I say if he can be signed for a low amount then yes. He is a good guy and can still hit better than many other guys on the club. Cust has improved his OF defense. Also, who knows if Chavez will be able to hit after his rehab.
Last, I think that the A’s should look at the back-up Catcher spot. I hope that Landon Powell can win this spot. However, adding a cheap veteran Catcher to be Suzuki’s back-up would be advisible. Bowen has not shown much offensively. He rarely plays so he has not hurt the team that much. HOWEVER, if Suzuki got hurt next year while we were still in contention it would be a major set-back to have to go with Bowen as our starter. I think they should look at a free agent for a season, have a real competition for the back-up spot in Spring Training.
by Yellowhorse on
Aug 12, 2008 12:01 PM PDT
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Why add a veteran to "compete"?
5- IF, Ellis leaves they should add a veteran to compete with Patterson for job.
If going to the trouble and expense, shouldn’t they have the job to lose?
"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds
by UncleLeo on
Aug 12, 2008 4:24 PM PDT
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veterans handed jobs? See Brown, Emil
by theblackpearl on
Aug 12, 2008 4:33 PM PDT
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Wow I thought you wrote "veteran hand jobs"
by rightbackin on
Aug 12, 2008 4:41 PM PDT
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all gritty vets "went to the school of hard knocks"
There were a lot of stupid, long confusing words that I’m sure normal people don’t use. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Aug 12, 2008 4:43 PM PDT
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The presumption from Yellowhorse's post...
...was that an Ellis replacement would be intended as a quality signing, and not another temporary inexpensive stop-gap.
"If I've got baggage, he's got a whole set of Louis Vuitton." ~ Milton Bradley on Barry Bonds
by UncleLeo on
Aug 12, 2008 6:17 PM PDT
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Agreed...
Although it sounds like a good idea to bring someone in to compete for the job I think we just need to forget that and let our youngsters compete for it, I believe we could generate enough competition from within with our utility infielders to warrant competition.
by mattman on
Aug 21, 2008 12:26 PM PDT
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Heres my two cents
If SS Furcal could be got for 1-2 years i say get him. Trade B Crosby if needed but Frucal until this year has been healthy for his career. In the spirit of the E Brown signing this year I would bring in OF B Giles, to satatify Beanes desire to get him and provide a leader for the younger guys (but he should be tested for drugs once a week the entire year). Plus if it would help get B Giles cheaper sign 2B Marcus Giles to a minor league deal and see if he has anything left and as insurance for the departure of Ellis, who i think will be back so he can be a part of the extended winning that the A’s are building towards. These signings would be decent and up grade several areas for the A’s. Also these players could be coming off the books about the time the A’s are reall


