Waivers: An Overview and How We Should Use Them
Now that the July 31 deadline has passed and we still have dead weight on the team like Emil Brown, Alan Embree, Keith Foulke, Jack Hannahan and Lenny Dinardo, it's time we explore the August waiver deals that can happen.
First let's start with reviewing the rules:
1. Anybody on the 40-man roster can be placed on waivers without consent (or even knowledge) of the player.
2. Any team can claim any player placed on waivers, but preference first goes to the team with the worst record in the league the player was in. All teams have 2 days to claim the player on waivers. For example, if the A's were to place Embree on waivers, every team has 48 hours to claim him. But if multiple teams claim him, the team highest up on the waiver wire would be Seattle, then Cleveland, all the way through the Angels in the AL. If no one in the AL claims him, the same process happens in the NL (For reference, 25 teams would have to pass on Embree before the Phillies could claim him).
3. If a player is claimed on waivers, the team who placed him on waivers has three options:
A) The team can pull him off waivers and said player stays on the team and cannot be traded for 30 days.
B) The team can work out a trade with the team highest on the waiver wire who claimed him. If the player is traded, any player on a team's 40-man roster must pass through waivers.
C) The team can surrender the player and his remaining salary to the team that claims him for no players. This is what happened with Esteban Loaiza.
4. If a player is not claimed, he can be traded any time after he passes through waivers again for any other player who passed through waivers or for players not on the opposing team's 40-man roster.
So now that we've waded through that set of rather complicated rules (or at least I've rambled about them and you've skimmed over them), why does it matter to us? Well the A's have three players who seem like just the type of players waivers are perfect for. The players who we hear most about on waivers are of two types: guys who have very large salaries and guys who could have a little value but not enough to warrant a lot of interest prior to the non-waiver July 31 trade deadline.
For example, Nomar was put on waivers the other year. Guys like Andruw Jones when he was good and even Manny a couple years ago were placed on waivers (and Andruw almost certainly will be this year and just as certainly he won't be claimed). Again why does it matter to the A's?
This year was the year of the blockbuster prior to July 31. Manny, Griffey, Harden, Blanton, and CC all moved and a lot of teams were focused on those big names. August can now be the time to make the little trades. And Bobby Crosby, Alan Embree, and maybe Keith Foulke and Emil Brown could be those perfect little moves for some GM's.
Plus, waivers don't prevent us from our main goal of rebuilding. We can go for other teams prospects as long as they aren't on other teams' 40 man roster. However, we don't have too much leverege. If a team claims one of our guys like BoCro (say, the Dodgers), we can't drive up the price by going to the competition. We can only deal with them or hold onto our guy. But what we can do to increase our prospect haul is to take on a team's bad contracts. For example, if the Dodgers were to claim BoCro, we could take a guy like the aforementioned Andruw, assuming he clears waivers, and demand Scott Elbert, Andrew Lambo, and Ivan DeJesus. Or we could do something crazy and trade him to the Giants for Zito and Alderson, Bumgardner, Sosa, and Villalona.
Obviously those last deals are fantasy. But what about some more realistic (but still unreleastic) deals like Embree for Jason Donald if the Phillies, as apparently the A's wanted to add on the Blanton deal (according to PT, I haven't seen a link to confirm that)? Or something like Keith Foulke for Allen Craig (Nico, what do you think?)?
At the very least, who should be put on waivers? I would say obviously Embree, Foulke, Crosby, and Brown (Hannahan and Conrad are DFA candidates, not waiver candidates). If we're willing to accept low-level prospects we could even put Thomas or Ellis on waivers, because they will be claimed. If we wanted to buck convention, we could even put Street or Duke on waivers, but again we would have to accept non-40 man roster prospects and we couldn't start a bidding war, with only one team to negotiate with. However, if we don't find a deal we can always pull them back off waivers.
As I put in a post last night, it's time to clear some dead-weight off this team and perhaps get a little value in return. It's our last chance this season to do so, and I want to see Murton, Patterson, Petit, and Pennington get some extended PT this season.
Oh, and one more thing that I'm tempted to put on my sigline: call up Michael Richard and Larry Cobb, Billy!
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Comments
Very good topic to discuss, and good diary, vignette
It’ll be interesting to see what happens, and you gave some cool hypotheticals.
I have to disagree with you on Hannahan as a DFA candidate though. The man had an .803 OPS in the month of July! He’s also statistically among the top 3 defensive third baseman in the league this year, behind only Rolen and right alongside Lowell.
He’s not a DFA candidate.
I realize that a lot of A’s fans want to see something “new”, partially because of the frustrations of the team’s struggles, but when you factor in defense I don’t think there’s a better option internally than Hannahan right now.
"The painting was a gift, Todd. I'm taking it with me." -Wedding Crashers
by notsellingjeans on Aug 1, 2008 3:23 PM PDT 0 recs
agree on Hannahan
I think of him as basically Scutaro with a better arm and better range.
Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Aug 1, 2008 4:10 PM PDT
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... and cheaper
Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Aug 1, 2008 4:10 PM PDT
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I'd rather see Baisley playing
I think he has the upside of league-average overall, while Hannahan really isn’t more than a platoon-hitting backup player.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Aug 2, 2008 12:05 AM PDT
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What is Baisley's injury?
Seems like he hasn’t played in forever. Any idea when he’s back?
"The painting was a gift, Todd. I'm taking it with me." -Wedding Crashers
by notsellingjeans on
Aug 2, 2008 12:35 AM PDT
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Stress fracture of the foot, I believe
Might be back soon, might not. Stress fractures can be nasty sometimes.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Aug 2, 2008 1:45 AM PDT
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hmmm....
I like the explanation but I must say I am interested in your comments.
First of all, I like how you mentioned Zito and fantasy in the same sentence, unless you mean for the Giants for being able to dump his ludicrous $20 mil per season.
Second of all Hannahan is not dead weight. I am not a huge fan or anything (my username is only a play off my last name, purely coincidence). but he is a valuable player, his OBP is higher, he has only grounded into one double play all year, he plays 1st and 3rd and he’s still in only his second pro season. It’s just a bit too soon to give up on this guy in my opinion. I say let him finish the season, then next year if Chavez goes down or we need him to start for whatever reason if he is not doing well then we consider getting rid of him, but then and only then…
by stranahanahan on Aug 1, 2008 3:29 PM PDT 0 recs
The Zito idea was originally NSJ's, though I had pondered it
I say fantasy because a trade like that is way too risky on both sides, and way too huge to happen in season, especially in August. I think it’s just too unconventional to ever work.
Posting in your own diary, the way to look there’s more activity than there actually is!
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on
Aug 1, 2008 3:41 PM PDT
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Word to the wise
Baseball players will get irritated (internally, at least) if you use “pro season” to refer to the amount of time they’ve been in MLB. Pro ball starts with the minors (and even the independent leagues). Saying a guy’s in his second pro season makes it sound like he’s barely out of college.
Just FWIW.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Aug 2, 2008 12:15 AM PDT
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yeah
i was going to say that too. “big-league” season is probably more appropriate
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
by flipgatey3 on
Aug 2, 2008 11:21 AM PDT
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Two quick notes
It’s Lambo of the Dodgers not Landow. Also I see we’ve called up Petit. Sweet.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on Aug 1, 2008 3:30 PM PDT 0 recs
You can edit fanposts...
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Aug 2, 2008 12:16 AM PDT
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Team Claim Order
I thought the team claiming order was by record the previous year, not the current year.
facepalm.jpg
by Zonis on Aug 1, 2008 7:39 PM PDT 0 recs
Um....
Maybe that’s right. I don’t know for sure as I was using MLBTR as a source who in turn was using Steve Phillips. So, I
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on
Aug 1, 2008 8:04 PM PDT
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So I.....
am not sure…...Stupid AN3
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on
Aug 1, 2008 8:05 PM PDT
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No...
Claim order is by record the previous year ONLY during the month of April, when no one really has much of a record to go off of.
From May 1 on, I believe, waiver priority for claiming is in reverse order of current season’s record.
"The painting was a gift, Todd. I'm taking it with me." -Wedding Crashers
by notsellingjeans on
Aug 1, 2008 9:25 PM PDT
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Anyone who claims Crosby can have him
On a different note, I’ve seen an article that says the A’s tried to expand the Blanton deal to include McDonald but it didn’t take. I don’t have the link handy so you’ll just have to take my word for it.
Hey, I’m agreeing with PT on this… no way in Hell I’d lie to do that!
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Aug 1, 2008 8:05 PM PDT 0 recs
Question about trade rules and waiver wires
What if Crosby got traded for a PTBNL and that player was on the other team’s 40-man roster, but the deal doesn’t finalize until the offseason?
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Aug 1, 2008 8:35 PM PDT 0 recs
PTBNL
I’ve wanted to ask this for a while:
What are all the reasons to trade a PTBNL? I know that this is sometimes done for recent draft picks who can’t officially be traded for a while after signing. What other reasons? Can you do it to avoid the waivers/40-man issue? Can you avoid Rule 5 complications this way (maybe you don’t want to use a spot or something until after the rule 5 draft)?
Anyway, I’m sure everybody will be placed on waivers. But I think the only real waiver trade possibilites are Foulke, Embree, Brown, and maybe Thomas.
by thejd44 on
Aug 1, 2008 9:21 PM PDT
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Couple of things there
Draft picks can’t be traded for one year after signing. PTBNL’s need to be named within six months of the deal. So trading a “PTBNL” is actually not very likely to be a reason to throw a drafted player into a deal, unless it falls into that sweet spot – you’ve had the drafted player for more than six months, but less than a year. (If you had had the player for more than a year, it would be unnecessary to tag him as a PTBNL in the deal).
I can’t answer all of your questions in the middle of the paragraph. But I’ll take a stab at #1:
The most common reason to label a player in a trade as a “PTBNL” is that you want to get the deal done quickly, but there’s some haggling between the two teams of which final player will be included in the deal – always a minor leaguer. In situations such as this, the final player is usually chosen from an agreed upon list drawn up by the two teams. The C.C. Sabathia deal included a PTBNL, and the Brewers and Indians agreed to a group of players (maybe as few as two) from the Brewers farm system that the Indians could eventually select once the PTBNL is eventually “named”. And he will have to be “named” within six months.
This accomplished two goals: it allowed the deal to get done quicker with less prospect haggling, and it gave Indians an extra few months to evaluate a group of players on the agreed-upon list and determine which one they like the best.
"The painting was a gift, Todd. I'm taking it with me." -Wedding Crashers
by notsellingjeans on
Aug 1, 2008 9:38 PM PDT
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PTBNL doens't always have to be a minor leaguer.
There’s been at least one, if not several occasions where a player was dealt for a PTBNL, and then ended up actually being sent back to the original team as the PTBNL—essentially being traded for himself.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/chitiha01.shtml Harry Chiti is the most famous example, as he was the first player to be traded for himself.
by mikev on
Aug 1, 2008 11:39 PM PDT
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the rule has since been changed...
because of the embarrassment of the Chiti situation. Has to be a minor leaguer.
"The painting was a gift, Todd. I'm taking it with me." -Wedding Crashers
by notsellingjeans on
Aug 1, 2008 11:53 PM PDT
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Reading ESPN.com..
it says only that the player can’t have played in the same league as the team to which he’s being traded, and that’s why it’s “almost always” a minor leaguer.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/transanctionsprimer.html
"God doesn't pay attention to your cute little hypotheticals." -- Jeff from LL
by oblique on
Aug 2, 2008 3:08 PM PDT
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So it could be a National Leaguer?
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 2, 2008 6:49 PM PDT
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Why not Crosby. I doubt anyone would claim him, and then he's
next year’s solution for someone…..Dodgers, er….I can’ imagine anyone else doing it. Orioles?
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 2, 2008 6:48 PM PDT
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it's pretty standard (or used to be)
For teams to put just about everyone on the 40-man roster on waivers and then pull back the ones who get claimed who they don’t want to trade. Because why not? You might as well take a shot at the flexibility.
by jdr on Aug 1, 2008 9:37 PM PDT 0 recs
In effect, for there to be any chance of a player getting traded
that player has to either a. have an onerous contract relative to his value, yet has to have SOME value since otherwise no one will bother trying to get him, or b. be an impending free agent who will not command comp picks, or who is still getting paid so much money that the salary isn’t worth taking just for comp picks.
Of the impending free agents, 4 of them won’t get compensation—Foulke, Emil, Thomas and Mike Sweeney. Ellis would get claimed by pretty much anyone (only $1.7 million left this year), so he’s not going anywhere. Chavez, Crosby and Embree could all be said to have onerous contracts, but Chavez is hurting, so he’s basically out. Ultimately I don’t think Embree will sneak through waivers, because the zero-buyout team option he has for next year means there’s some value to a non-contending team in claiming him as a cheap flyer to potentially use next year. Street and Duke will get claimed by every team in baseball, so, uh, good luck with those Seattle trade talks, Billy. No one else will get through because they’re all essentially making the minimum, unless they would clear waivers to the minors anyway.
So you’re really talking Thomas, Sweeney, Foulke, Emil, Crosby. Sweeney is done, so he’ll clear waivers but attract no interest. Ditto Foulke. Thomas won’t clear, nor do I think Beane will move him—Frank just wants to play ball and wants to do it in Oakland and Beane isn’t going to do him the disservice of shipping him out to some random locale. Emil should clear waivers, and might get a mediocre PTBNL if a team has a crisis situation and needs a role-player. Crosby will probably clear because of his $5.3 million salary for next year, and the A’s will probably have to swallow most of that contract to move him for any value.
I don’t expect to see any trades between now and August 31st.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Aug 2, 2008 12:34 AM PDT 0 recs
Paul
can you fact-check my response re waivers/PTBNL/Harry Chiti? Thanks.
"The painting was a gift, Todd. I'm taking it with me." -Wedding Crashers
by notsellingjeans on
Aug 2, 2008 12:38 AM PDT
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I'd think Murton would be another candidate
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on
Aug 2, 2008 6:52 PM PDT
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He's not going to clear the low-level teams
and there’s no reason to trade him now rather than later to a team that isn’t in contention.
Players making league minimum are basically untradeable after the 31st.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Aug 2, 2008 7:09 PM PDT
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Are you sure Thomas won't bring any compensation?
Even with his injury this year, his past couple of years (is comp for two or three years now?) have been decent. I think he’d bring something if the A’s offered arbitration and he went elsewhere.
Anyway, I have a feeling Thomas might be back in 2009, and I support the move. What I don’t support is counting on him for a ton of games. If they can get 100 Frank Thomas games, that’d be great.
by thejd44 on
Aug 2, 2008 11:19 PM PDT
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Type A, B status is determined
by statistics from the past two seasons.
"The painting was a gift, Todd. I'm taking it with me." -Wedding Crashers
by notsellingjeans on
Aug 3, 2008 8:55 AM PDT
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I wish this process was detailed
Because I have a bad feeling they do some sort of BS math that involves things like batting average and RBIs and doesn’t take into account, you know, more relevant statistics.
Anyway, Thomas had a pretty good year last year and can still put up decent, albeit abbreviated, numbers this year.
by thejd44 on
Aug 3, 2008 3:03 PM PDT
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Hard to say for Frank
Prior rankings are here:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/2007-10-31-elias-rankings-complete_N.htm
He’ll go down quite a bit, with his 2006 coming off the books, so I think he’s unlikely to be a type A, but he could probably do it if he hits well the rest of the year. The system undervalues doubles, so that’s good for him….
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on
Aug 3, 2008 3:27 PM PDT
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Wow, he actually hit 30 doubles for Toronto last year
that surprises me…
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on
Aug 3, 2008 3:32 PM PDT
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Can't find a link...
iirc, they use some combination of playing time, ba, obp, hr, and rbis.
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on
Aug 3, 2008 3:30 PM PDT
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People are working on reverse engineering the formula
http://tigers-thoughts.blogspot.com/2008/07/almost-how-elias-sports-bureau-rankings.html
Yes, they use pointless stats like W’s and RBI.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on
Aug 3, 2008 3:51 PM PDT
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Keith Law wrote something where he detailed which stats they use
It might be in an interview for MLBtraderumors or something. I know for a fact that the MLBtraderumors guy, Tim Dierkes, knows which specific stats are used.
"The painting was a gift, Todd. I'm taking it with me." -Wedding Crashers
by notsellingjeans on
Aug 3, 2008 5:06 PM PDT
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He just linked to vignette's link
The A's colors are green and gold.
by mikeA on
Aug 3, 2008 5:21 PM PDT
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Elias is a complete dinosaur
In many many ways. And their marketing is lame – it’s pitiful when the ESPN writers cite some unimportant stat/piece of trivia that anybody could look up and credit it to “our friends at the Elias Sports Bureau” like it’s some sort of amazing piece of research. They’re holding on by their fingernails now that stats and research have become ubiquitous on the web.
by jdr on
Aug 4, 2008 9:29 AM PDT
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I misread your subject line as ...
“Ellis is a complete dinosaur,” and I was about to say, No—he’s a complete unicorn!
(And agreed on your sentiments regarding Elias.)
Greed and fear cause over-reactions in both directions. @('.')@
by monkeyball on
Aug 4, 2008 10:07 AM PDT
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Elias uses some cockamamie rating system.
Any system that says Alex Rodriguez was only the SIXTH best 2B/3B in the AL over the past 2 years is pretty much idiotic and should not be used by baseball.
by mikev on
Aug 4, 2008 12:17 PM PDT
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Trade Deadline Question
Does the July 31st trade deadline basically make any trades involving players on the 40 man roster not through waivers illeagal? Or can you still make trades, but the players just can not be placed on the Post Season Roster.
facepalm.jpg
by Zonis on Aug 2, 2008 2:26 PM PDT 0 recs
Yeah
I’ve always thought (possibly wrongly) that all the waivers does is make them eligible for post season rosters. So we would just need our guys to pass through and not the opposing team’s. I could have sworn there have been trades post July 31st where they didn’t get through waivers so they were just renting them for the year to get them to the post season.
In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!
by DMOAS on
Aug 2, 2008 3:50 PM PDT
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I'm pretty sure it makes trades involving unwaived players on the 40-man illegal
Otherwise the “buyer” (i.e. the playoff contender) could trade whoever they wanted to the “seller”, and the “seller” wouldn’t care because they’re not going to the playoffs anyway.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Aug 2, 2008 3:59 PM PDT
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Anyone on the 25-man roster as of August 31 (not July 31)
is eligible for the post-season, period.
After that it gets more complicated.
by Faust on
Aug 2, 2008 5:55 PM PDT
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There are some rules regarding injuries and the like
And, actually, I don’t think it’s “anyone on the 25-man roster,” but rather the manager has to submit the 25-man playoff roster by August 31. The past two seasons (one with St. Louis, one with the Cubs), Jason Marquis was on the 25-man roster all season and was left off the playoff roster. This decision had to be made by the end of August, but no actual roster move had to be made then.
by thejd44 on
Aug 2, 2008 11:21 PM PDT
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Nope
Playoff rosters can be changed up until the day before the first series (and can be changed again before each round of the postseason). Any player who was on the 40-man roster on Sept. 1 can be included on the 25-man for any playoff series. If a player is injured, he can be replaced with a player who was not on the 40-man roster as of Sept. 1.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Aug 2, 2008 11:23 PM PDT
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Really?
I thought that only the players on the 25 man-rosters on September 1st could be on the playoff roster except in the case of injury. If a player was placed on the DL then he could be replaced with another player added to the roster later (which is what happened with KRod in ‘02). Maybe the rules have changed. Maybe my memory is faulty. But that is what I remember.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton
by vignette17 on
Aug 2, 2008 11:31 PM PDT
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Then why do they always talk about how the playoff roster has to be set by August 31st
by thejd44 on
Aug 3, 2008 3:04 PM PDT
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Because of this part
(from Paul’s post)
Any player who was on the 40-man roster on Sept. 1 can be included on the 25-man for any playoff series.
Setting the playoff roster by Aug 31 means making sure that the guy you might want is on the 40-man roster by then, so that he’ll be eligible for inclusion on the 25-man roster for the playoffs.
"Dispatch knuckleheadedness with Bond-like aplomb." –74mk
by iglew on
Aug 3, 2008 4:02 PM PDT
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The date they need to have it set by
is Aug 31st b/c on Sep 1st the rosters expand.
In search of a new signature. Say something funny and you may see your comment here!
by DMOAS on
Aug 3, 2008 6:59 PM PDT
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Is there a list somewhere
of players placed on waivers, and those who have cleared waivers?
"God doesn't pay attention to your cute little hypotheticals." -- Jeff from LL
by oblique on Aug 2, 2008 4:05 PM PDT 0 recs
It's not public info
Sometimes players’ waiver status will be leaked, but it isn’t reported normally to the press.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Aug 2, 2008 6:32 PM PDT
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often we don't find out who was claimed
until some idiot team suddenly realizes that whichever team put Randy Myers/Jose Canseco/random-veteran-playing-out-the-string has no intention of pulling them back when they’re claimed.
Although to be fair if I recall the Yankees knew they’d get Canseco, they just didn’t want him falling to the Red Sox. Or something along those lines.
by jdr on
Aug 2, 2008 6:59 PM PDT
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Sounds about right
The Yankees can afford to bury a guy like that on the bench. The Randy Myers one was a much better example for the Oops factor.
Maybe the Giants can one day get out from under the Zito contract that way.
by thejd44 on
Aug 2, 2008 11:22 PM PDT
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we we we we = not we
"The two of them deserve each other. One's a born liar, the other's convicted."
by SwampyD on Aug 3, 2008 7:38 PM PDT 0 recs












